Guild Wars 2

An extra character slot in place of the bag slots sounds like it’d be better. Or for that matter, some larger bags, like the Black Lion bag that comes with the old (and otherwise awful) “new player package”.

Additional bag slots aren’t really that necessary anyway. Larger account-bound bags like the BL one would be more genuinely helpful to a new player.

Bandit.8279:

The bag expansions ARE account bound not soul bound OP. Only soul bound if you use them ofc. These two packages are a great deal for newer accounts and can be for some older ones. Got several ticket scraps, some new minis from the keys and more boosters.

That they’re soulbound after use is precisely the problem. General arguments against this ‘design choice’ aside, they’re a poor choice for a package aimed at new players.
Most new players will be too new to appreciate that bag slot expansions only affect one character… a character they may not even stick with, as trying out various classes (or even rerolling the same one) is rather common when new.

At least these two packages are better than the “Black Lion Introductory Package”. What a joke that thing was!

I agree that the bag slot expansions seem questionable, given that they’re character-bound and most new players will reroll at least several times. Of course, you could also fix that by making them account-wide as they should have been all along…

Girbilcannon.8259:

It saddens me to say, but at least blizzard responds when something like this happens.

I take it you never played a rogue in WoW? The silent treatment they got for 5+ years at a time makes what’s happening to Thief in GW2 pale in comparison.

Right now, the cries for civility—made in hopes they’ll get thief the attention from developers that it hasn’t gotten in years—are sounding awfully familiar from my WoW rogue days…

I hate to say it, but if there ever was a time for civility, it’s over. As someone who has played a rogue in just about every MMO where it’s possible to do so, I have watched this cycle play out time and time again over the years, both with rogues and other classes.

What made the difference between classes that got the attention they needed and those that did not? Volume. In every single case where I’ve seen a class successfully petition for sorely needed attention, it was only volume and persistence that made it happen. Players have to make it a problem the developers simply can’t afford to ignore, or they will continue to do so in favor of any other number of issues. That’s just the reality of online game development, unfortunately.

The elite specialization reveal is not far on the horizon. Be ready with both your most critical and your LOUDEST feedback, because we’re gonna need it.

At this point, I WILL calmly wait until the Thief Elite Spec announcement, even if it inevitably ends up being the last one… but at that point, there are no more excuses.

When our Elite spec is revealed, ANet better have a gameplan ready for how to address the major issues with Thief as a whole. Anything less would be a waste of everyone’s time, as the issues with the profession go a lot deeper than an elite specialization can fix. Still, it could be the beginning of a new and improved direction for the profession… maybe.

The clock is ticking, ANet. We’re watching and listening… show that you are too.

I’ve noticed over time that rogue classes in MMOs consistently receive a lack of developer attention. Unfortunately, it seems that the unwashed masses consider the rogue archetype infuriating to play against—even when stealth is as thoroughly limited and controlled as it is in GW2—and developers tend to prioritize those people’s satisfaction over that of those playing the actual class.

It’s really rather unfortunate, especially when you can’t even get attention on bugs that’ve been known about for months/years (let alone new skills or revamps).

The Thief Elite Specialization reveal is coming up in the foreseeable future, though. While they’ll presumably be focusing on feedback about the spec, I think it would be a good time to get all the general purpose Thief feedback in—ESPECIALLY if it involves low impact, low resource-intensive changes like fixes for known bugs.

I felt that it was relevant to General as well, since it involved a game-wide systems change that only one profession was left out of.

That they never seem to read this forum also contributed a little bit

On another note, this thread was just moved by a moderator to the Thief subforum, so there goes the chances of it ever seeing the eyes of a developer.

Oh well…

The thing is, we’re not discussing a “balance change” of adding range to a weapon that isn’t already there. Thief Pistol can already get that range increase, it just has to take a junky trait in a junky line to get it… which still doesn’t make sense, given how no other profession in the game has to do that to get their skirmish-range weapon to 1050.

But yes, that would change very little about the role of the Pistol for the profession at the moment, given that it’s arguably Thief’s weakest weapon set. All the more reason there’s literally nothing to lose by bringing its range up to the same standards of every other ranged weapon in the game.

Thank you for acknowledging the “melee specialist” fallacy, by the way. It seems to me that Thief is less of a melee specialist and more of a melee pragmatist: either you run D/P and Shortbow or you don’t contribute anything of value in PvP. Even then, it’s far too easy to get blown up with our nerfed dodges and lowest in the game base HP + durability.

It would be great to have more build options, as just about every other profession gets tanky, support, or condition builds as choices. But that would require a sizable revamping of the Thief, and right now it’s hard enough as is to get developer attention on simple, low impact changes that would be easy to implement… such as the topic of this thread.

BrotherBelial.3094:

The point is, the devs feel that thieves don’t need it to be base line as its not firing with the way the class plays

That’s a rather presumptuous thing to say. Do you work for ArenaNet? No? Then you don’t know how they “feel” unless they’ve made a public statement on it; this very thread was created in the first place because they have not.

You also have yet to explain why one class getting an already existing trait made baseline suddenly clashes with the Thief “playstyle”. Does that “playstyle” include being the only class not included in game-wide systems changes? What an odd way to “play”…

also balance. If a thief could attack al long range stealth move and attack again. It would be like a ranger having access to a bucket of stealth imagen the pew pew rangers with that much stealth. The game wold become, long range stealth shooting. I would guess ANet is not a fan of that idea.

Good thing that’s not what a single person in this thread is suggesting!

I honestly have to ask… other than you clearly getting blown up by them in SPvP all the time, do you actually know anything about Thief? It is very baffling as to why you’re stuck on the idea of the shortest range class in the game suddenly becoming overpowered the moment it reaches 1050 range on its worst weapon set—in a game where several other classes can hit you from 1500+ away on their best.

Also, Thief Pistol has precisely ZERO ways of entering stealth from outside of melee range, so I see no reason why a baseline increase in range would suddenly make Thief a stealth-from-long-range machine.

But please, explain. I’m all ears.

BrotherBelial.3094:

Wrong. My point is, why would a thief need a long range weapon when they excel in close range combat. A good thief will win a fight more often than they lose a fight. I don’t see the point.

Apparently, a weapon becomes “long range” precisely when it goes from 900 to 1050. And here I thought 1200+ was long! Also good to know that a massive range increase of 150 only becomes a problem when it’s applied to Thief in the same way as it is with literally every other profession in the game.

I think I may have figured out why you don’t see a lot of points.

P.S. You realize that, when traited, Thief already has that “long range” weapon you say they don’t need, right? Ankle Shots OP

It would be nice to see a WoW-style dueling system where you could challenge people out in the open world and have an arranged fight that ends when one player hits 0 HP. Abilities didn’t affect anyone outside of the duel, and the loser was resurrected after hitting 0 HP. GW2’s could function similarly, except with the ending and revival coming at 0 HP in downed state, of course.

There are too many engine issues to make this feasible anytime soon, though. I have a hunch that they hardcoded PvP to only function in instance shards specially designed for it (sPvP, WvW). This would likely require a sizable overhaul of the engine

BrotherBelial.3094:

To be fair, a pistol is not a long ranged weapon. And its not like thieves are lacking in damage. Stealth burst, stealth burst some more. Blind and stomp. Am I missing anything?

You are missing several things, yes.

Pistol is indeed a shorter ranged weapon, which is probably why it was designed as a 900/1050 weapon originally. At any rate, that is a question of theme, and has no place in a discussion about one profession out of nine being (unintentionally?) left out of what appears to be a game-wide shift in trait design.

The rest of your post seems to be bog standard complaints about a profession you don’t play doing things they were designed to do. Again, how does this relate to the core issue being discussed in this thread?

There has been a shift in the philosophy of trait design over time that has led to the gradual removal of range increasing traits in favor of making them baseline. This is good.

Recently, a patch on July 28th finally removed and integrated the last few range increasing traits. This is great! Except… for Thief Pistol.

Thief is now the only profession in the game that still has a range increasing trait, and it’s a hidden effect on a Master trait in their second worst trait line to boot! This is bad.

Is there any particular reason for this from a dev standpoint? That the range increase is unlisted in the trait’s description makes me wonder if it was ever intended to raise range at all, but I’m not entirely sure. Some clarification would be much appreciated!

I really like this idea, actually. But it’d have to be done very carefully and specifically to not cause problems.

Perhaps just letting you use it to step to allies, but you don’t “steal” anything from them. The Steal text could be amended to say, “Shadowstep to target entity. If it’s an enemy, steal an ability…” blah blah blah.

There’s no way we’d be most mobile without IA, but with it, we easily are. It’s that good, and I kind of wonder how that’ll end up affecting class balance in the long run.

By the by, I would say that Thief is the second most difficult class to play, especially in PvP. Between squishiness, tight timing, good (but not great) damage, and the unique resource system of Initiative which can leave you spent and vulnerable if you’re not careful, the Thief class is not for amateurs. It’s up to you to determine both if the class fits your playstyle, and if you have the necessary amount of skill and patience to play it.

Signet of Shadows kinda sucks for sPvP (better for WvW because of how roaming based it is), so I’d drop it. You should probably drop Signet of Malice as well; it’s better used in builds that have the right setup to take advantage of it, which usually involves at least Pistol MH and Assassin’s Reward.

I’m actually surprised you’re not running with Signet of Agility. With the CD up, it gives you a solid 90 Precision at max level. The active refills your endurance (good), and removes a condition for each ally nearby (even better). Remember: even aggressive builds need some survivability

I’ll throw in my thanks as well. When I first played vanilla GW1, I had little choice but to play a Mesmer (which, granted, I ended up enjoying immensely) because no pure “rogue” class existed at the time — Assassin wouldn’t be added until Factions.

This time you put in a “rogue” as the Thief class, at release, and with cool mechanics like Steal and the more skirmish-based Stealth system. A difficult but rewarding class with good damage and the highest mobility in the game? I am pleased.

We could use a few more weapon options, though

Devildoc.6721:

Well I still don’t see how shortbow is supposed to be such great damage on a single target. I’m doing about 3000 damage on cluster bomb explosions compared to 5500 on unload. Both can stack bleed with sigil of earth and pistol auto attacks, and I can poison with steal just the same as using choking gas, just on a single target. In the end I’m doing 50% more damage with pistols. Things just die a lot faster with pistols. I can circle strafe and things die. Shortbow requires a lot more finesse but the payout for that finesse is just lacking.

What you’re proposing is a false dilemma. The ubiquity of Shortbow in the loadouts of talented thieves has nothing to do with single target damage, so why bother comparing it between Shortbow and Dual Pistols? Between the very good AOE damage and the CLASS DEFINING mobility of Infiltrator’s Arrow, passing on Shortbow is not an option for the competitive Thief, period.

This means that, when intelligently discussing potential Thief weapon choices, there’s an underlying assumption that the weapons in question would be run ALONGSIDE the Shortbow. This also means that you preferably want your non-Shortbow weapons to provide something unique, ranging from utility to strong single target damage.

And what, really, do Dual Pistols bring to the table? In terms of damage, it’s ALL single target, and not even that high compared to other options. The set lacks a single snare, root, or meaningful escape skill, Unload is slow and easy to dodge in PvP, and to cap it off, the skills don’t even synergize well amongst themselves. Vital Shot and Sneak Attack favor Condition Damage, Unload favors Power, Crit, and On Hit effects, and Body Shot costs resources you’ll never have to spare, due to how Initiative hungry Unload is.

Headshot and Black Powder are very useful, granted, but you could just run D/P or S/P and get the same skills attached to a better package instead. Frankly spoken: P/P needs work.

It’s an animation issue. Hopefully they fix it.

Signet of Shadows is great in PvE for speeding up general travel. Not so great in sPvP, where you’ll be stuck in combat (and slow) a lot of the time, as well as needing the skill slot for something else.

Still tinkering with particulars, but pretty happy with my binds so far:

-WASD for movement, FPS style (A and D strafe, not turn)
-QERCX for Weapon Skills 1-5, Healing Skill on Z
-123 for Utility Skills, 4 for Elite
-Shift+1-4 for Class Skills. For Thief, that’s just Shift+1 for Steal
-Untouched defaults: F for Interact, ~ for Weapon Swap, perhaps others

After reading the topic of the OP, I had to struggle to open the thread to read the actual post without dying from laughter. To suggest that Thief has the lowest mobility is absurd. The sPvP teams that run Thief do so for one real reason: to gain access to the best mobility and roaming capability IN THE GAME. You don’t even need Signet of Shadows (it’s rarely used in sPvP); Infiltrator’s Arrow guarantees that Thief has the best mobility in the game by itself. That’s not even addressing the other bonuses to movement the class can offer.

Yes, Shadowsteps can be somewhat buggy and/or strict in their targeting. While this could be improved a bit, some degree of it is a necessary evil. When designing any kind of teleporting ability, developers must be very careful to not let it potentially circumvent map geometry.

Edit: Now 33% less snooty.

Just chiming in to say that, as a thief, I think the HS change was sensibly executed. It’s now a bit less lucrative to spam it mindlessly on people with high HP, which is fair, given that HS is supposed to be more of an execute move.

Ohoni.6057:

Would “Basilisk Venom is less useful than any other Elite Skill in the game” be better? I think they get the point. The rest of the thread is where the details get ironed out.

No, it wouldn’t, because it’s just a weaker way of saying the same incorrect thing, which is that “Basilisk Venom is the least useful elite in the game”. There is a big difference in saying that a skill like BV is “niche” or “limited in use” (correct), and saying “OMG WORST ELITE IN GAEM”, which is just senseless hyperbole.

A game like Guild Wars 2 is all about build uniqueness and synergy. This means, in contrast to something like WoW, that it’s a lot less about finding the singular “best” build, and a lot more about making one that fits the needs of your team and the environment.

Is Thieves Guild our best all around elite? Absolutely; you can throw it into any build and it’ll fit okay. But I can think of several specific builds where even the “useless” Basilisk Venom can be used in very effective ways. I’d even go as far to say that it’s BETTER than our third elite, Dagger Storm.

And honestly, let’s have a bit of a reality check here. When it comes to terrible elites, it gets a lot worse than ANY elite Thief has to offer. Elixir X, anyone?

This could use a look at, but you should probably stop leaving auto attack on regardless. At least for PvP, where it can really get you in trouble.

In the same boat myself. Hoping there’s a solution, as that hood is awesome

Dual pistols are a bit trashy right now, unfortunately. As fun as they can be stylistically, I’d recommend you try other weapon sets until P/P is given a bit of a buff.

Thieves are definitely not underpowered, though. While we are somewhat squishy, we aren’t meant to stay in the thick of things for long. Initiative, copious amounts of blind and stealth, and the best mobility in the game all add up to a Thief’s major strength being MOBILITY. Learn it, love it, use it, abuse it

P.S. Never run a weapon set without shortbow. Infiltrator’s Arrow is AMAZING.

You can do the glass cannon thing if you want (mostly with S/P and a few sources of Quickness), but one thing you have to accept about playing Thief is that we simply don’t have the highest damage. Good damage, yes, but not Ele or Warrior level damage. Nor should we, of course, because we have the highest mobility in the game bar none.

To Jon and the GW2 team,
As discussed in this thread and elsewhere, Thieves really need more weapon variety. Here are some realistic suggestions on that front that don’t involve any drastic reworks:

-Add Sword as an offhand option. Seriously, we’re Thieves, who tend to be masters of one handed weaponry… so why is it that MESMER of all classes can offhand swords (with more weapon choices overall) while Thieves can’t? If we gained the ability to offhand swords, it’d add three new possible weapon combinations (and the corresponding unique dual skills) in one fell swoop. This would help Thief weapon variety a LOT.

-Figure out something to do about the Shortbow. Right now the mobility and AOE damage potential that it brings to the table is just too useful on all strata of the game to leave the Shortbow out of any build. This obviously makes weapon choice a good deal more stale.

To be honest, hyperbolic statements like “Basilisk Venom is the most useless elite ever” aren’t very constructive, nor do they provide terribly good feedback to the developers who read these forums.

Does Basilisk Venom have issues? Sure. But as others have pointed out, it was previously nerfed for a reason, which was being the centerpiece of a very scary build that locked people down for up to 10 seconds with no option of stun break. Obviously, something had to be done about that.

So yeah, it’s not what it once was, on account of the huge cast time it has now, but that doesn’t mean it can’t still be useful with the right setup. Issues aside, it has a VERY low cooldown, especially when traited, so it’s one of the best elites in the whole game for abusing the Lyssa rune bonuses (especially if you take Withdraw as a heal skill in conjunction).

Everything has its place, and it could still be slightly adjusted. But given the uses it already has (and how ridiculous it was with a short cast time previously), it doesn’t need THAT much.