(edited by Anymras.5729)
I don’t like that it requires launching or knocking back enemies to set it off; as a primarily PvE player, I find that most of the enemies where having Quickness would be great are Champions, with the CC-resistance that comes along with being such.
I have no idea what I’d do instead, of course, but this is pretty much why I don’t like it.
It’s an effect of the firing cycle. By double-tapping, you cause the first ‘shot’ to be the overcharge, but if you delay, the first ‘shot’ is a regular.
Pretty sure it’s all still true.
People often advise just taking ‘Zerker gear and learning to run glassy for PvE, aggro management is nonexistent, Warriors have just about always been considered super great at PvE (though I’m not sure if I’d call other professions meh), conditions still have a 25-stack cap, and they finally gave a lot of skills skill facts to show that they really do have a max target of 5.
Turrets don’t scale to Power or Precision, but do scale to Condition Damage, Condition Duration, Boon Duration and Healing Power – where said stat is applicable, of course.
For example, Flame Turret benefits from both Condition Damage and Condition Duration, while Rifle, Thumper and Net Turrets benefit only from Duration.
That said, I’ve heard of people running ’zerker with Turrets, though I usually stuck to Cleric with some Carrion to give myself a fair bit of Healing Power and Condition Damage.
Oh, right, the bug where overcharging it, and detonating it before the overcharge fires, creates a double Blast finisher. Not supposed to happen, but does.
I’m actually kind of curious what the actual thing that’s happening is. It’s hard to piece together from “lol so op.”
Neither Thumper nor Flame Turret will activate their overcharge outside of combat, or without a target within range, despite both being self-centered AoE effects.
I actually haven’t seen a single post suggesting limiting Engineers to the one kit that’d be equipped in their weapon swap slot.
Aerin was using something very similar to what Boom-Boom Baines was using, only there wasn’t a zerg making it difficult to see what was going on.
Boom-Boom, of course, was using this last year, too, though they did update it a bit.
…it is incredibly annoying to have Marjory and Kasmeer teleporting along behind me.
Yeah, definitely doubting this’ll have anything like new weapons or skills in it. They’d have talked about that, used it as a selling point to bring people back – or in to begin with – alongside LSs02.
I don’t really understand what the problem is. We can have access to four different weapons and can swap them almost instantly, unlike other classes who need to wait ten seconds in combat. I’d say the lack of two weapon slots is perfectly justified.
Can. That’s a very important word, which pretty much encapsulates the crux of the whole issue. See, there’s ‘do,’ ‘can,’ ‘can not,’ and ‘do not.’ Do and do not are definite. Can and can not are fuzzy. There’s a reason I point this out – after all, an Elementalist does have access to four different weapons, though they have cooldowns. The Elementalist can’t not.
We, however, can. We can have builds which have no Kits at all, and can even go from 1-80 without ever unlocking a single Kit. These builds are effectively punished by the current design, which more or less ignores the fact that they can exist; our weapons are made intentionally weak, weapon choice is barely trinary, and we can’t even swap weapons if we don’t have a Kit slotted, so once we’ve set all our cooldowns a-coolin’, we’re stuck autoattacking if we have the audacity to just not slot a Kit at all times.
Now, obviously, Engineers are balanced around Kits. Nobody’s going to debate that, or at least I’m not, given the fact that the class is openly limited in particular ways due to Kits existing. The devs flat-out admitted to that in the Class Balance Philosophy.
It would be nice for one to always be available, regardless of build, though.
After all, that’s the assumption the very design of the class makes.
If people are being downed by bombs, they should maybe move away from the bomb.
I’ve suggested this very thing a few times. I think it’d be nice; I’d finally actually start using the bloody things, because I wouldn’t be sacrificing slotted skills that I’d dropped traits on.
No idea if it’d be overpowered or not in PvP.
That’s been around since release.
I’m pretty sure it’s just a miscommunication, much like Explosive/Fragmentation Shot in conjunction with the +10% damage from Explosions trait.
Maybe Turrets are easy to play in PvP, but in PvE, it’s actually harder to use Turrets and not die than it is to use Kits and not die, in my experience – enemies straight-up peel off of other players to converge on me, if I’m running Turrets. Surviving that, with three or four skills creating stationary things, and changing my Toolbelt skills into detonations, leaving me with nothing but dodges, my Elite and my intentionally-kitten main hand weapons, can be…difficult.
PvP, obviously, is a bit different, as people don’t typically actually have aggro tables, and hopefully realize that charging into a nest of stationary defense tools is a bad idea.
Unfortunately, people get forced into it because that’s the primary method of point gain in sPvP, which has all of one mode. Seriously, why aren’t there more modes for this thing?
Anyway, as somebody who’s almost always used Turrets, they could definitely use more active play effects; Detonation and Overcharge are both very limited options. Definitely agreeing with Bhawb.
Pretty sure a large chunk of the problem has to do with the very design of the only current sPvP game mode, particularly its reward system, which is skewed (as far as I know) toward holding a point; if my information isn’t inaccurate, you pretty much have to spend no more than ten seconds between kills if you want to gain enough points from getting kills to justify it over point-holding.
Guess what Turrets are pretty much designed for? They can’t move, a dedicated Turreteer will likely have at least one survivability traitline maxed, and they offer a lot of crowd-control.
Make the combat mobile, as it is in the rest of the game, and suddenly, that nest of Turrets is something to step around, or the Engineer someone to lure away from the support of their Turrets.
The other major part of the issue likely stems from how rare Turret Engineers have been for months – or how rare they should have been, given the various bugs like lowered fire rate, or giant hitboxes. People in sPvP haven’t dealt with Turrets enough to know what to do about them, or they’d know their vulnerability to ranged AoE, and the build’s limited access to condition cleanses or stunbreakers.
Here’s a big ol’ idea: Maybe do some work on sPvP, to make mobility matter without making immobile builds pointless. sPvP itself’s barely been touched in the last two years, as far as I can recall, with the exception of a couple maps being added (I think).
How about:
Some capture points are mobile, with special rewards for holding them for certain lengths of time; perhaps cargo or somesuch, being delivered from Place A to Place B.
Place A and Place B could be set locations, while the route would be randomized.
To keep people from just camping at A and B, rendering mobility moot, the mobile point might change direction if it’s captured, giving the captors an advantage they would lose if they let it near its final position instead. At the same time, due to randomization of routes, there’s not a lot of point just building a fortification in the middle of where it’s thought to be going. Allow the controllers of the point to literally control it, and change what direction it’s going at certain points, giving urgency to knowing where it is and where it will be. Never let them actually stop the mobile point, though; this would defeat the intention, which is steady motion.
(edited by Anymras.5729)
Maybe if Gadgeteer also triggered on Gadget Toolbelt effects, it’d be good. As it is, even with the high uptime of some of the boons, the results just aren’t that impressive.
Grandmasters make builds, yet the only Gadget builds I can come up with that aren’t “And I’ll take that Grandmaster because it’s a Gadget trait” have no Grandmasters at all – or the Grandmasters they get are Bunker Down and/or Synaptic Overload, because both of these synergize with an actual character who’s using a full complement of Gadgets, at least in my opinion.
So: Definitely agree with reducing it to Master trait, and making the Toolbelt skills the same type as the Utility; I see the latter as a now-ancient oversight.
I have no idea what Cloaking Device or Armor Mods have to do with this situation, so I can’t comment on those suggestions.
For a replacement Grandmaster…I’m not sure, really. I’d actually really like more Toolbelt traits, though I can’t say I’m especially enamored with trying to work Ferocity into it somehow. Maybe…hm.
Mechanical Rhythm:
Each Toolbelt skill use grants a stack of Mechanical Rhythm, with a duration of 10 seconds. Each stack of Mechanical Rhythm grants a Ferocity bonus of 12.5%, and increases Precision by 5%.
Mace and allow it to be re-skinned with a “default” set of 3 hand held hammers. Some of the maces would look positively odd on an engineer.
But, I don’t think we want to go down the “need weapons” path (as that would really suck up developer time to do for each class) versus wanting improvements in WvW and specifically in gadgets and a few trait tweaks.
If anything tied to weapons, the engineer could use the ability to have a placeholder weapon for the purposes of having equal sigil opportunities.
They’ve already said they’re working on getting every class every weapon. Granted, they said they were trying to get that done by the end of 2013, and they’ve not so much as farted about it since, as far as I’m aware, but they still said it.
I’ve been running Turrets PvE since release, switching between Rifle and Pistol. Build’s always been 2/0/6/6/0. No Kits involved.
Lately, I’ve also been trying a Gadget-using build, but haven’t quite nailed down how it’ll work yet.
I haven’t been acquiring Hammer skins…just picking which one I want.
…and looking at the skin previews with a : ( face.
If the numbers are off, the numbers are off – working on outdated information because I didn’t feel like going to the trouble of testing every single autoattack’s cumulative damage over ten seconds will do that.
It seems unlikely that there is or will be an endorsed way to bypass or disable the spam filter…because that would pretty well enable spammers to, well, spam.
How would you even implement such a workaround without ruining the filter’s function?
@Anymras
*Edit
I think there’s something off with the numbers. Checking on the PvP area, it’s
Rifle Turret: 476
Flame Turret: 127
Rocket Turret: 1429
Thumper Turret: 635base damage without RTB on Heavy armored golems.
I think I pretty much just used the numbers in the wiki to run the math, rather than actually testing per-shot damage on the golems (due to then having to qualify what armor level the damage is calculated against, or calculate against all three armor types), so some inaccuracy wouldn’t be terribly unexpected. What is kind of unexpected is Rocket Turret dealing more damage, given most of these numbers being lower; which armor type were these showing up against?
Turret kit is actually a good idea, Keep healing turret as it is but replace all turrets for signet skills and put maybe weakened versions of turrets in a kit. Like miniversions compared to what we get now. Let those minis explode after like 10-20 sec. Removes the turret problem from the game, and we get to mobilize our turrets, thus making them more usefull.
…Turret problem?
What problem, that they’re immobile structures with predictable attack patterns, that people just don’t bother to destroy?
That the only game mode where people think they’re too strong rewards more points for holding a point, a goal obviously suited to Turrets, than killing other players?
That people aren’t used to seeing or playing against Turrets, certainly not properly-functioning ones?
Ranged AoE destroys the Turrets, and Conditions are the bane of the Engineer. Where’s the problem? It’s just something that has people off-guard. They don’t know how to deal with it, so they’re kneejerking and going “That’s overpowered.” After all, Turrets were subject to several crippling bugs for months, if not a full year, and these bugs have only recently been resolved.
Mobility is an issue for Turrets, that said, but there is no real ‘Turret problem.’ There is just people being unfamiliar with the playstyle, or the counters to Turrets. Don’t balance the game around sPvP.
I’m pretty sure Turrets can’t crit. Even if they could, it likely wouldn’t trigger the Sigil, because Turrets don’t count as the user for originating effects besides conditions and boons.
Having just looked over the sPvP boards to see all the whining about Turrets, including a post or two about 75% of a build’s damage coming from Minions/Adds/Turrets/Etc:
These people have no idea how little damage Turrets actually deal. I ran the numbers, a while back, and the three most damaging turrets, combined, deal about 80% of Speargun autoattack-only damage, when everything’s set in favor of making Turrets look good.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/engineer/Engineer-turrets-sigh/first#post3867013
No, really. I set the numbers to figure out what it’d be like for a naked, traitless level 80 with a 1-weapon-power Weapon, and then gave Turrets Rifled Turret Barrels, and calculated the damage for a period of ten seconds. Turrets don’t scale, weapons do, and the worst of our autoattacks was more damaging alone than all three of our most-damaging Turrets.
About the only thing I didn’t do to make Turrets look good was account for overcharges.
If they reduce the damage, that’s going to just be stupid.
This is a learn-to-play issue, compounded by a particularly limited game mode wherein holding a point is a major objective.
Looking at the sPvP’s wiki page, I notice that holding a point for ten seconds is worth as much as getting a kill; thus, if it takes longer than ten seconds to find, and kill, an enemy, it’s time that would have been better spent holding a point.
Learn-to-play aspect: Why are they ignoring the Turrets, and why should Turrets be nerfed because they don’t bother to destroy them? They aren’t that tough, even traited, and a full complement of them can raise the Engineer’s DPS by a fair amount, as well as providing boons and CC, depending on traits. The cooldowns are also substantial, and if the Turrets are destroyed, they won’t be reduced by 25% like they would if they were picked up. AoE erases them.
Game mode aspect:
When a combat is immobile, and based on survival, Turrets will naturally be well-suited, due to their own immobile natures and the fact that Turret grandmasters are exclusively found in survivability-boosting traitlines. Turrets are designed to hold a point, to create area-denial. Of course that’s what they’re going to be good at. Fighting a Turret Engineer in a box is not supposed to work out well.
If the fight is mobile, as most in every other game type are, a Turret Engineer with all their turrets deployed is essentially half a character outside of Turret range, which maxes at 1500 with RTB. Can an sPvP fight be mobile? Sure, but if it takes more than ten seconds to secure a kill, that is, again, time that could have been spent holding point instead.
In short:
- People need to learn to destroy the Turrets.
- The game-mode rewards holding points more than killing foes.
- Turrets are designed to be good at holding points, and their users tend to be tanks.
Nerfing Turrets because they’re good at what they’re designed to do, in a gamemode designed to disproportionately reward exactly what Turrets are designed to do, is absurd, and would pretty much kill the skillset in every other game-mode.
@fluidmonolith:
I pretty much agree with all your Gadget assessments, so I’ll only comment on Throw Mine, which I think I might have an idea for.
Throw Mine’s Toolbelt could really use some predictability, for the user’s sake, with some adjustability thrown in to prevent it from being too predictable; I always find it aggravating when I end up with three mines in one clump, and two far distant. Would much rather a pentagonal formation, if only for planning and PBAoE’s sake.
I’d suggest something like making the skill a charge-release cast instead of tap-cast, as well, with a tap putting the mines just outside of each other’s trigger range next to the player, and holding making them go further and further out. Alternately, make it the other way around if there’s concern over ‘Tap button to drop five bombs at your feet’ being OP, where you have to hold for the maximum channel to drop them nearby.
As for the skill itself, – and this is probably a terrible idea – it could be interesting to treat it somewhat like a Turret with charges – reduce the current damage, of course, but give it…let’s go with three ‘charges,’ which regenerate over time, and each Throw Mine used expends one charge. Replace the Toolbelt with Detonate Mine while these Mines are out, to allow detonation anyway. The skill was allegedly once a kit, after all, and it might be cool to reclaim some of that ‘minefield’ concept.
I remember when people kept suggesting that Gadgets and Turrets get combined into Kits.
Rubbish.
Leads to one Engineer with half the class’s skills on their bar, forcing Kits down players’ throats even more thoroughly than they already are – I’m practically gagging on the things, despite having no interest at all in using them – and thus turning Engineers into overpowered action-spammers. Could they add more skills to fill the class back out? Sure, but I really don’t trust them to be able to make those hypotheticals less terrible, considering their track record and “Hey, what if we made [skillset] into a Kit?”
Has to be the worst auto attack in the game.
It’s certainly the worst Engineer autoattack, and Engineers have intentionally kitten weapons. So…
Fortified Turrets is also great in PvE – spot a tell for a big ranged attack, drop a Turret, stand in the bubble and unload.
A more solid solution would simply be to put turrets, gadgets and alchemy on par with kits. That way your utilities equally counter the weakness of your weapon no matter which ones you take. As it is, the most logical decision in many cases is to simply take as many kits as possible (assuming you can handle that many buttons).
With just that, there’s still the ‘Every Engineer is treated like they have a Kit’ aspect of the no-swap design decision, on top of the relatively difficult, and time-consuming, rebalancing required to make single skills + Toolbelts on par with weapon set swaps.
(edited by Anymras.5729)
I was looking over traits, to plan my build (and thus what to do while leveling), and I noticed both Mug and Hidden Thief; one makes Steal deal damage, the other makes it Stealth the user. So…what happens when both are equipped?
Does it Stealth, or is it insta-Reveal?
Manuhell:
I agree that you should be able to get “on swap” sigils to work without the use of a kit.
I agree that allowing the engineer to take 2 of the following Rifle, P/P and then P/S makes more sense than thinking the engineer will get new weapons.It would be balanced on engineers that DO NOT have a weapon kit. It could be grossly over-powered on 3 kit engineers (think of the combined CC of the rifle and P/S with bombs, grenades and tool kits).
You could easily make it such that upon slotting a non-healing kit in the utility bar you immediately lose the ability to utilize the 2cd weapon BUT you would retain the use of its sigils.
I bet you would see a fair bit more diversity in builds if you adopted such. We could use a few gadget or turret engineers in WvW particularly.
Thinking about this again, would it really be OP to give ALL engineers the ability to carry 2 weapon sets (of the same 3 weapons they have)?
The weakness they seem to acknowledge on Ready Up is our ability to counter CC or reset a fight. Having a rifle/pistol-shield or rifle/pistol-pistol or pistol-shield/pistol-pistol really is only adding a bit of utility in CC more than changing your damage rotations. Now most engineers would have a very mediocre gap creator (jump shot) and 2 blow backs (magnetic inversion and overcharged shot).
I may just be missing where this would be OP but looking at it again, giving the engineer the ability to carry 2 weapon sets given we have so few choices, really doesn’t seem to add an outrageous amount of utility.
They did say they intended to give every class access to every weapon…by the end of 2013, if I recall correctly. Don’t know what happened to that, but I guess since they only said they were working on it and didn’t give an actual release date, they can just keep on pretending they never said it at all.
I dont agree with giving weaponswap and then losing weaponswap when a kit is slotted. It would make the oppertunity cost for a kit far to high.
You have two full fledged weapons. Then by equiping 1 kit you lose your weaponswap, so you trade a weapon for a weapon with no sigil. And you spend a utility slot to do it.
Disregarding the fact most kits are worst then a real weapon anyway.Thats not a good trade-off at all for using a kit.
You think people will stop using kits? I didn’t think of that. Its possible. I doubt people would slot just 1 kit anymore…but then again have you seen how limited our weapon selection is? EG TK are just as good as regular weapons in my opinion.
Regardless, if it is a case of people using kits less than they do now… I’m ok with that. They are not the class mechanic. Again. That is the tool belt.
If the choice is:
1. No second weapon set. Kits are nearly a must have and use up utility slots.
or
2.Granted a second weapon set which is greyed out if a kit is slotted.This frees up our utilities. This also may make kit usage lose some efficacy.I truly believe 2 is the lesser evil
I feel it’s worth noting that the Engineer’s main-hand weapons were intentionally (according to the Class Balance Philosophy) made lackluster – because of Kits, which offer a bundle of other advantages, besides.
People would still use Kits, just as people still use no-Kit builds.
What would make that especially strong, as opposed to an HgH now, though?
How is it gamebreaking to implement a mechanic exactly like the one possessed by every single class, except for Engineer and Elementalist, on the condition that the user not use Kits? The crux of your ‘argument’ seems to be ‘getting swap sigils for ’free’ is bad,’ so let’s take a look at that.
- Kits provide access to swap sigils pretty much on-demand, limited only by the sigil’s ICD.
- Kits can access swap sigils even if switching directly from Kit to Kit, without ever switching to the weapon being swapped to and from.
- Weapon swapping is, on my Thief, on a 9-second cooldown, which aligns with at least some swap sigils’ ICD; Warriors have a traitline that improves their swap speed.
- Weapons only access sigils that are on the weapon.
In short: Kitswaps actually do get swap sigils for free, or at least at a hefty bargain, whereas weaponswaps need extra copies of a swap-sigil. A four-kit Rifle Engineer with a swap-sigil on his Rifle can effectively access five copies thereof: One on his Rifle, one on his Medkit, and one on each of the other three Kits.
How about an actual reason to treat every Engineer as if they would all have Kits equipped, rather than going with OP’s suggestion?
Anybody have one?
While I thank you all for the replies..
they seem to only be about the first part of the post and skipped the 90% of the rest of it. That sucks that turrets don’t trigger crit sigils or even crit at all for that matter. But that being said I would rather have the 2nd part. I would love to have a weapon swap if I have no kits equipped. That way I could utilize swap sigils like Leeching and Battle. If I could use Battle I could then make better use of str runes which would then make me build less hybrid and more power yada yada… Basically further increasing engie build diversity.
I want to run 3 turrets and still have a weapon swap please. Or 2 turrets and elixir S.. 1 turret elixir S and Rocket boots…. etc etc etc
I didn’t respond to the second part because I’d already replied to it the first time it was posted on the Engineer boards – in support of it, because it’s the most efficient means by which the ‘some engineers will use Kits, so no engineers can swap weapons?’ quandary could be resolved without making a hardline either direction.
As an Engineer who almost never uses Kits, of course, this is something I’d have a personal interest in seeing happen; if they ever add new weapons to the Engineer class (please give me a hammer oh god why don’t I have a hammer), it’d be very nice and might lead to whole new sets of builds.
Nope, they can’t.
Turret effects often don’t count the player as the originator – for example, Cleansing Burst will clear two Conditions, and not contribute at all to Condition Remover.
Perplexity runes also don’t trigger on Turret effects, so I’m pretty sure Sigils don’t affect Turrets.
Addendum for the suggested Turret rework: Include a timer, counting down from the moment of first placement, to when a Turret’s health would be reset entirely if it were picked up.
Timer’s value should be derived from the Turret’s cooldown – Rifle Turret would count 20 seconds, Thumper would count 50.
Make timer visible on UI in the same fashion as an Elementalist’s Attunement, perhaps as a small portrait of the turret with a cooldown-style effect on it.
Why:
Provides counterplay (keep the Engineer from picking up their Turrets, by any means, to keep them from being able to just ‘refresh’ them at X point; essentially, force them to eat a cooldown if they don’t pick them up quickly).
Answers “But how much health will [Turret] have if I pick it up during a fight and then don’t place it for [amount of time]?”
Oh, the horror, two characters with specific skills can, with precise timing, skilled teamwork, and some brutal thinking, be quite capable of making flame-broiled steaks out of limited numbers of enemies who don’t bother to cleanse Cripple or use some other evasive measure to escape.
Turrets have a five-minute lifetime, implemented a long while ago for no reason that was ever explained. So…yeah, it’s intended, they just don’t bother to make sure people know about it without other people being like “Hey, here’s how this thing really works.”
There are a couple reasons that might explain why they did it, but I’m not really sure if those reasons do anything to make it less pointless.
For example:
They might have been annoyed that players could place Turrets, run away, and then still get contribution to events, or affect the outcome of battles on the other end of the map…but then they give them a five-minute lifetime, which is, really, plenty for this purpose, and that’s if the Engineer isn’t forced into detonating the Turret in order to access the Toolbelt skill.
Could the Engineer run to safety? Sure, but Turrets really aren’t that threatening and the Engineer will have to come back to replace them when they get destroyed. Besides – they could do the same thing with the five-minute timer.
Maybe they were aggravated about Engineers being able to set up Turret nests and farm effortlessly…but there’s still a five-minute lifetime, which is plenty if the Engineer picks a good spot and doesn’t AFK for long.
(edited by Anymras.5729)
One of the suggestions in the past that I thought was nice was to basically make the F1-F4 slots kits that could be swapped, and then the utilities could be whatever. It would kind of be like ele attunements, except they’d have no cooldowns for swapping like the kits do now. The kits utilities would then get replaced with other stuff (i.e. some of the tool belt skills could be rehased). However, that would take a complete overhaul of the profession, so it’s just not a feasbile possibility.
It would also, in my opinion, make Engineers way too similar to Elementalists, in terms of profession mechanics – the only differences would be that Engineers could choose their ‘Attunements’ and that they wouldn’t have swap cooldowns.
I still wonder how difficult it would be to let Engineers equip Kits (without granting Toolbelt skills, and I’m not sure how to handle stats/damage on this idea) in their weapon slots.
3. They were concerned that being able to chain a normal turret attacking immediately into the overcharge could be too powerful (i.e. net turret immobilizing, then getting another immobilize and stun for a continual 5 seconds of CC).
I think this is the most likely reason, considering that they’ve already nerfed Net Turret because of stacking Immobilize between it and Supply Crate.
I’ve posted an open question on the balance boards, asking if the sacks are really useful for knowing what an Engineer has.
Thus far…it’s pretty much “What? No.” with at least one “No. Doesn’t really help, anyway, because they switch so much – not enough time for reading the sack to matter.”
It certainly doesn’t make much sense, in my opinion, to treat every Engineer as if they will always have a Kit on their skillbar, and then make them something you can choose to never even unlock in the first place.
This applies to the dearth of weapon choices to begin with, to the lack of weapon swapping, and to the intentional weakness of Engineer mainhand weapons.
This idea is probably the simplest, and thus most likely to not be terrible, method of resolving that.
In PvE, there are plenty of creatures with damaging, telegraphed volleys of attacks. For example, Young Karkas in Southsun Cove, or Attack Golems in Metrica Province both use flurries of ranged attacks as an opening tactic, and intermittently afterward, with a unique animation.
As for dungeons, I don’t run dungeons, so I don’t know. Any situation where the attack is reflectable and has a tell that can be recognized with enough time to place the Turret as a countermeasure, though, really shows the usefulness of Fortified Turrets.