Guild Wars 2

@Andele: Some of those seem way too complicated and too focused on specific cases…
Also, on the last one, if you hit 0% LF, how do you lose remaining LF?

Some more master level trait ideas.

Tendrils of Corruption – Chance to corrupt a foe’s boon when struck. [/Transmute]
Hypothermia – Chilled foes deal less direct damage to you. (N%)[/Piercing Shards]
Restitch Limbs – Receive regeneration (5s) when you take damage greater than a percentage of your maximum health. (10%) [/Nature’s Protection]
Morbid Plunder – Whenever a nearby ally dies, maximize your Life Force. (Minions?)
Flesh Allergy – Reduce incoming damage from melee attacks. (N%) [/Stone Splinters]

EDIT: I stole just the chill factor from Andele’s “Swarm of Discord” and renamed it, but
Hypothermia seems like a really good trait. It could have it’s reduction adjusted for balance, is on theme, and accessible to all Necros in various ways (Chillblains, Spinal Shivers, Dark Path, Chill of Death, Sigils, Runes, etc). It would also greatly improve the Mr. Freeze build – possibly to viability – and would improve tankiness in general. It would also be at least semi-useful in PvE, PvP and WvW. If I had to vote for a PotH replacement, this would be it.

If nothing else, Dark Armor to replace reanimator for now.
If we’re looking for something new, how about the following for 5 point trait, given Death Magic is Toughness/Boon Duration.

Spectral Shielding – Gain toughness based on Life Force.
Absorb Vis – Gain Life Force when struck below health threshold. [/Valorous Defense]
Barbed Armor – Gain protection (5s) whenever you gain retaliation. [/Illusory Membrane]
Immunotoxin – Incoming damaging conditions have reduced duration. [/Dogged March]
Hardened Blood – Gain protection (5s) when struck by a critical hit.[/Primal Reflexes]
Tyranny – Gain toughness for every boon on you. [/Empowered]
Anguish – Retaliation you apply lasts longer. [/Nature’s Bounty]

I basically just retooled some existing traits to fit the Necro theme. Soe of the reference traits are not at the 5-point level, but none of these seem back breaking.

Forsaker.9213:

Forsaker.9213:

Reanimator – Yeah i know we all love this trait // I would move this trait into Death Nova trait and give us here 2s of protecion when going DS

15 Trait, Gain Aegis on leaving DS (forced leaving included), with an ICD.

As much as Death Magic is Boon Duration, we don’t do Aegis. How about:
Dark Emergence – Blind nearby foes (2s) when exiting Deathshroud. (ICD)

magical giant.8650:

amazing! this thread looks like the elementalist forum have been for a long time and still is, alot of people complaining!

Clearly you have never set foot in the Necro forums if you this is special. The only difference is now we’re also posting outside that subforum. shrug

About that new necromancer heal doesnt it steal health? I mean you say that the new heal is bad and that diamond skin is overpowered why not just use your new heal steal health 1 or 2k and bam diamond skin aint taking effect.

Wasting my heal, given my profession has some of the worst sustain in the game, just to overcome your passive effect seems kind of unbalanced. Following that logic, Ele’s didn’t need this since Ether Renewal would just cleanse Dhuumfire, but as it turns out, that didn’t quite work in practice.

I’d also like to add that an elementalist let go off alot of damage to pick up this trait which might be very strong agianst rabid/settlers but as said would be completly useless vs a thief for example. A Grandmaster trait that is useless vs certain classes but good vs others, a fair trade!

That’s really up to you, but to me, that seems awful, as you screw over exactly one build by giving little chance to compete while gaining virtually no added benefits. Not only does this suck for Necros, it seems pretty bad for Eles too.

magical giant.8650:

Didnt see anyone complain about that warrior trait that makes them deal more damage depending on how meny boons their oppenent has.
+
this is a teamfight oriented game and shaving 1-2k hp off a elementalist is a pretty simple task if you bring a friend.

I don’t see what the first part has to do with this. Extra damage is not the same as immunity – you can dodge a Warrior’s extra hard hits.
As for the second comment, while it’s true, relying on your team is just terrible form. Why would any team want to bring someone that has to be carried? Necros already suffered focus-fire issues and often needed a hand – now we need support to do damage as well?

Since the Devs supposedly wanted healing skills with more group support…

Signet of Vampirism
Passive: Gain life whenever you strike a foe. (133 healing, no ICD.)
Active: Heal yourself. You and nearby allies gain a Vampiric Aura. (5s) (3960 healing, 35s cooldown)
Vampiric Aura: Whenever you are hit, siphon health from the source of that damage. (392 healing, 265 damage, no ICD.)

Passive and active are essentially reversed.
Passive is essentially Signet of Malice. Still useless in Deathshroud.
Active retains same healing, only it has no idiotic, wasteful internal cooldown since you don’t lose time in after-cast and don’t control the effect. Promotes active play, discourages multi-hit bursts like Hundred Blades. Easy to work around since you just need to not attack the Necro for a grand total of 5 seconds; still not as good as Shelter, since you still eat damage/conditions/CC whenever your opponent feels like it.

Simple, effective, and easy to use.

Sorry Mods, but I’m not about to let this slide, and I’ll keep bumping it back to the front page for as long as nothing gets done/we don’t hear a fix is in the way.
No other professions have to deal with random delays after using profession defining mechanics, so why should we?

jmatb.6307:

It’s easy to take the Ele’s health down low enough for your skill-less, braindead condi spam to work, but if someone builds to defend themselves against a condi build expect it to work!

Also, I do not recognize ANY of your account names and none of you Necro apologists are anywhere near top 500 on LB so why should anyone take your opinions seriously?

That’s a very nice ad hominem there. Even has a hint of strawman.
You fit the sample quote I provided above perfectly.

The Game Slayer.7632:

Balefire.7592:

The Game Slayer.7632:

our time to shine

back about a year ago

LOL.

If you’re posting an absurd argument, don’t expect a rational response.
Balance means balance means equality. “Time to shine” is the exact opposite of that.

xev.9476:

Focusing on cc conditions just seems to miss the point to me. The issue is immunity to a whole damage type – damage, not just cc. As a condi build, in 1v1 and 1v2 situations I need to be able not just to apply cc, but to pressure them with damaging conditions. A proposed “fix” to condition damage immunity does nothing to help me in those situations.

But that should be the trade off of going full Condi. If you’re afraid of Diamond Skin, you would spec for a little bit more power. However, right now, doing so is completely pointless as it just puts you in a worse spot, not a better one.

The Game Slayer.7632:

our time to shine

Since you keep bringing this up, let me point out that Ele’s have already had their time to shine – back about a year ago when Cantrip D/D specs were everywhere and RtL didn’t have separate cooldowns. So there, argument null.

xev.9476:

Really? We’re upset because this jacks condi builds and we want the trait changed to accommodate power builds?

That’s why I’m upset. In an ideal world, with all builds equal, spec’ing a max/min build for condition damage shouldn’t be the best in all scenarios. Doing so is your choice, and you’ll just be making that knowing that Diamond Skin exists. The purpose of a hybrid is to be a build that is exactly average for that profession, while max/min condi/power are extremes that can be more powerful, but are easier to counter.
However, the problem is that trading some Condi damage for power is already sub-par due to our current balance, and this trait just makes that trade-off worse since it makes power based hits harder to land as we lose all of our control conditions like Chill and Cripple.

TheGreatA.4192:

The video also shows that when the necro plays his cards well, gets the ele down to under 90%, it’s game over for the ele since he lacks almost any condi removal other than his Diamond Skin trait. Also shows the ridiculous damage that condis do even in a short period.

That’s an entirely separate issue that most of us in the Necro forum have been aware of for some time. The number of “change Dhuumfire to this” threads in our forum is quite large, as is the number of threads requesting that we get more sustain for a DPS hit. However, we can’t do anything about those things.

I also think a lot of people are too focused on “Terror-Dhuumfire nerf! Haha, you deserve it!” and are missing the bigger ramifications of Diamond Skin. I agree that in an ideal world, with all builds equal, spec’ing a max/min build for condition damage shouldn’t be the best in all scenarios. Doing so is the Necro’s choice, and they’ll just be making that knowing that Diamond Skin exists.
However, the problem is that trading some Condi damage for power is already sub-par due to our current balance, and this trait just makes that trade-off worse since it makes power based hits harder to land as we lose all of our control conditions like Chill and Cripple against a class with good vigor uptime and good mobility skills. The purpose of a hybrid is to be a build that is exactly average for that profession within the meta, while max/min condi/power are extremes that can be more powerful, but are easier to counter. Right now, hybrid is awful, Power is mediocre, and Condi is OP, so we simply have no other options.

Da Sonic.6521:

It isn’t always when you exit death shroud, it’s only when you’re damaged out of it.

Regardless, it is quite annoying and has gotten me killed.

My utilities are always locked out for 1s on exiting DS. >.>

xev.9476:

Wtf makes people here think that just changing the trait to immunity to condition damage will solve the problem? Wow! So instead of pressuring or defeating a condi immune build we can instead chill or cripple them to potentially, and only very slightly, delay our demise. Oh boy! The problem isn’t just immunity to our cc, but also our damage.

It’ll let you get in real close with your daggers and actually land significant power damage.
Full Condi should have a counter – like everything else should have a counter. Min/max builds shouldn’t always be superior to hybrids because otherwise hybrids aren’t viable. Things like making this immunity to Condi damage would be ok – you’ll spec full condi knowing that 1/X fights you’ll lose due to this, so hybrids become more appealing. However, without cripple/chill, hybrid and power necros, which were already UP according to the meta, are just pushed further out.

Have there been any updates regarding this?
When exiting DS, there is about a 1s delay in re-acquiring your regular skill bar. This doesn’t occur with other transformations I’ve seen; not even Plague or Lich Form. It is extremely frustrating considering the severity of the issue (1s is easily enough time to die) and the fact that it’s tied to our main mechanic.
We had a developer post in a thread about it in the Necro subforum, but I can no longer find that thread. In any case, it has been quite a while since this was first reported.

Cush.4063:

Lol all these people complaining only do 1v1 or only play on a team with 5 condi necros

No, it’s just that everyone complaining would prefer:
A) Better active gameplay
B) Not to be carried by their team
C) A trait that is not 12.5% God-Mode and 87.5% useless (it messes with 1/8 professions)

Just to add to what Nemesis said: Corrupt Boon also got hammered since Dhuumfire.
In the entirety of this game, all I have seen for every patch as far as Necros are concerned are multiple large nerfs, bug fixes, one or two “real” buffs, and more bugs that end up remaining permanent since they’re “working as intended.”

Jugglemonkey.8741:

Balefire.7592:

Jugglemonkey.8741:

Balefire.7592:

The Game Slayer.7632:

Draehl.2681:

The Game Slayer.7632:

Balefire.7592:

The Game Slayer.7632:

Balefire.7592:

The Game Slayer.7632:

Balefire.7592:

The Game Slayer.7632:

Balefire.7592:

The Game Slayer.7632:

ITS OUR TURN BABY!
this video can explain to you exactly whats going on.

PS: diamond skin has not shut down the necromancer class, just the necromancer condi builds. (just so that is clear)

Please tell me when was the last time a power Necro killed an Ele.
Especially given the fact we can no longer Chill, Cripple or Fear you to catch up with your mobility.

You’re thinking a little too simple tho darling. Baby you gotta think outside the box. What you’re feeling right now is similar to what i was feeling when eles got nerfed and other professions got buffed. I was forced to think outside the box, and experiment.

There is no “outside the box” here. Necros have no hard CC outside of the three conditions I listed (plus one Immob, which is also a condition). A dagger Necro simply cannot stay on any Ele with a pulse long enough to do damage.\
I don’t care that they nerfed condition damage builds. I care that they nerfed the few skills Necros had that could let them land damage/prevent escapes.

Yea, you shouldve heard me in the forums when eles got nerfed. Its all part of the cycle man. You’re soon going to realize that this is intended, that it’s eles time to shine, and that necros time to shine is coming to a close now. That doesn’t mean that necros are going to be completely useless, cause i stuck it out with ele and in a few weeks i found something half-way decent to carry me through to this patch. If you dont like the type of balancing anet does, that means theyre actually succeeding. Thats just the nature of imperfect balancing.

I’m well aware that Ele’s have suffered. But an eye for an eye leaves the world blind.
I’m not asking for the removal of Diamond Skin. You can keep it – but a version that doesn’t ruin everything Necros are about.

fortunately you have attacks that do damage and damage is what counters diamond skin. if the ele is outhealing you, that means hes full bunker and he cant kill you anyway. if he IS killing you, that means he is zerk spec and you’re power necro builds are going to rip him apart. give the meta some time to shift.

That’s the whole point though. If we can’t catch the Ele, we can’t do any damage. I’m not asking for a removal of the trait – keep your bleed, poison, burning and torment immunity. Condi spam is OP, so that’s valid. But my snares aren’t what kills you, they’re what allows me to actually be able to fight.

think of something. That’s on you. adapt to the gameplay is all i can say. i need to go to bed, ill visit this forum tomorrow to talk some more. peace

Translation: There is no counter – I want your class to be complete trash because mine was.

yup. like i said, eles time to shine. and you’re very right in thinking that im going to enjoy the hell out of steam-rolling every single necro i run into. its going to be a necro-slaughtering for the next few months. i love it, and every second i will cherish it.

Ele’s have every right to their time in the spotlight. But if it comes at the expense of another profession, you may need to re-evaluate your definition of balance.

It counters a very specific build, and one that sorely needed a counter at that. If every necro is using one build as your post implies, then that means one of two things: There’s a lack of build diversity, or the build the necro is using is OP as all sin and needed a counter. Since power necros are definitely a thing, the latter is likely true.

Every build needs a counter. If you don’t want to adapt to this counter to condi tanks, that’s not the developer’s fault.

As I stated earlier, please provide verifiable evidence that Power Necros are a thing in high level PvP.

If no-one uses power necros in high level PvP, that just proves my point that the condi spam build is OP. Power based necro builds can demolish things when used properly, try it out.

That’s confirmation bias, not proof.
And I know very well what Power Necros do, I run one.
They twiddle their thumbs when you Ride the Lightning/Burning Speed/Lightning Flash/Mist Form/Obsidian Flesh and run away since without an available snare, you can’t catch the Ele. Trust me, I would love to just mash people with my dagger, but as it turns out, opponents are not so fond of just sitting around and eating damage.

jmatb.6307:

I over simplified my statement about condis. I meant condi builds.

You can’t get away with going full kitten and do the same 30/20/0/0/20 build in the new balance cycle and expect to compete in 1v1s against Warriors, Eles, and Mesmers. You’ll get trained and deservedly so when you bring barely any defenses or sustain.

Consider running a Dagger/Warhorn as your second set if you want to 1v1 with your precious Scepter/Dagger. Need power damage to get the Ele’s health down, and you can CC them with the longest single daze in the game.

Consider running a power build with Dagger/Focus Staff. Good teamfighter.

Or Axe/Focus Dagger/Warhorn for a Power 1v1 type build.

Necro players are some of the least creative and whiny people in this game and spend more time QQing on the forum than playing it seems like.

Seeing as how you don’t include yourself in that statement, it seems safe to assume you don’t play a Necro, and hence don’t understand why we complain as much as we do.
I couldn’t care less about Diamond Skin blocking bleeds, burning torment and poison. Most reasonable Necros agree that Condi spam was broken with tanky gear. But this nerfs more than just them – good luck trying to land that daze on an Ele without chill, cripple, fear or immobilize. Necros already have THE worst mobility in the game, while Eles have some some of the best. If you strip our capacity to mess up your mobility, where does that leave us?

Jugglemonkey.8741:

Balefire.7592:

The Game Slayer.7632:

Draehl.2681:

The Game Slayer.7632:

Balefire.7592:

The Game Slayer.7632:

Balefire.7592:

The Game Slayer.7632:

Balefire.7592:

The Game Slayer.7632:

Balefire.7592:

The Game Slayer.7632:

ITS OUR TURN BABY!
this video can explain to you exactly whats going on.

PS: diamond skin has not shut down the necromancer class, just the necromancer condi builds. (just so that is clear)

Please tell me when was the last time a power Necro killed an Ele.
Especially given the fact we can no longer Chill, Cripple or Fear you to catch up with your mobility.

You’re thinking a little too simple tho darling. Baby you gotta think outside the box. What you’re feeling right now is similar to what i was feeling when eles got nerfed and other professions got buffed. I was forced to think outside the box, and experiment.

There is no “outside the box” here. Necros have no hard CC outside of the three conditions I listed (plus one Immob, which is also a condition). A dagger Necro simply cannot stay on any Ele with a pulse long enough to do damage.\
I don’t care that they nerfed condition damage builds. I care that they nerfed the few skills Necros had that could let them land damage/prevent escapes.

Yea, you shouldve heard me in the forums when eles got nerfed. Its all part of the cycle man. You’re soon going to realize that this is intended, that it’s eles time to shine, and that necros time to shine is coming to a close now. That doesn’t mean that necros are going to be completely useless, cause i stuck it out with ele and in a few weeks i found something half-way decent to carry me through to this patch. If you dont like the type of balancing anet does, that means theyre actually succeeding. Thats just the nature of imperfect balancing.

I’m well aware that Ele’s have suffered. But an eye for an eye leaves the world blind.
I’m not asking for the removal of Diamond Skin. You can keep it – but a version that doesn’t ruin everything Necros are about.

fortunately you have attacks that do damage and damage is what counters diamond skin. if the ele is outhealing you, that means hes full bunker and he cant kill you anyway. if he IS killing you, that means he is zerk spec and you’re power necro builds are going to rip him apart. give the meta some time to shift.

That’s the whole point though. If we can’t catch the Ele, we can’t do any damage. I’m not asking for a removal of the trait – keep your bleed, poison, burning and torment immunity. Condi spam is OP, so that’s valid. But my snares aren’t what kills you, they’re what allows me to actually be able to fight.

think of something. That’s on you. adapt to the gameplay is all i can say. i need to go to bed, ill visit this forum tomorrow to talk some more. peace

Translation: There is no counter – I want your class to be complete trash because mine was.

yup. like i said, eles time to shine. and you’re very right in thinking that im going to enjoy the hell out of steam-rolling every single necro i run into. its going to be a necro-slaughtering for the next few months. i love it, and every second i will cherish it.

Ele’s have every right to their time in the spotlight. But if it comes at the expense of another profession, you may need to re-evaluate your definition of balance.

It counters a very specific build, and one that sorely needed a counter at that. If every necro is using one build as your post implies, then that means one of two things: There’s a lack of build diversity, or the build the necro is using is OP as all sin and needed a counter. Since power necros are definitely a thing, the latter is likely true.

Every build needs a counter. If you don’t want to adapt to this counter to condi tanks, that’s not the developer’s fault.

As I stated earlier, please provide verifiable evidence that Power Necros are a thing in high level PvP.

The Game Slayer.7632:

Draehl.2681:

The Game Slayer.7632:

Balefire.7592:

The Game Slayer.7632:

Balefire.7592:

The Game Slayer.7632:

Balefire.7592:

The Game Slayer.7632:

Balefire.7592:

The Game Slayer.7632:

ITS OUR TURN BABY!
this video can explain to you exactly whats going on.

PS: diamond skin has not shut down the necromancer class, just the necromancer condi builds. (just so that is clear)

Please tell me when was the last time a power Necro killed an Ele.
Especially given the fact we can no longer Chill, Cripple or Fear you to catch up with your mobility.

You’re thinking a little too simple tho darling. Baby you gotta think outside the box. What you’re feeling right now is similar to what i was feeling when eles got nerfed and other professions got buffed. I was forced to think outside the box, and experiment.

There is no “outside the box” here. Necros have no hard CC outside of the three conditions I listed (plus one Immob, which is also a condition). A dagger Necro simply cannot stay on any Ele with a pulse long enough to do damage.\
I don’t care that they nerfed condition damage builds. I care that they nerfed the few skills Necros had that could let them land damage/prevent escapes.

Yea, you shouldve heard me in the forums when eles got nerfed. Its all part of the cycle man. You’re soon going to realize that this is intended, that it’s eles time to shine, and that necros time to shine is coming to a close now. That doesn’t mean that necros are going to be completely useless, cause i stuck it out with ele and in a few weeks i found something half-way decent to carry me through to this patch. If you dont like the type of balancing anet does, that means theyre actually succeeding. Thats just the nature of imperfect balancing.

I’m well aware that Ele’s have suffered. But an eye for an eye leaves the world blind.
I’m not asking for the removal of Diamond Skin. You can keep it – but a version that doesn’t ruin everything Necros are about.

fortunately you have attacks that do damage and damage is what counters diamond skin. if the ele is outhealing you, that means hes full bunker and he cant kill you anyway. if he IS killing you, that means he is zerk spec and you’re power necro builds are going to rip him apart. give the meta some time to shift.

That’s the whole point though. If we can’t catch the Ele, we can’t do any damage. I’m not asking for a removal of the trait – keep your bleed, poison, burning and torment immunity. Condi spam is OP, so that’s valid. But my snares aren’t what kills you, they’re what allows me to actually be able to fight.

think of something. That’s on you. adapt to the gameplay is all i can say. i need to go to bed, ill visit this forum tomorrow to talk some more. peace

Translation: There is no counter – I want your class to be complete trash because mine was.

yup. like i said, eles time to shine. and you’re very right in thinking that im going to enjoy the hell out of steam-rolling every single necro i run into. its going to be a necro-slaughtering for the next few months. i love it, and every second i will cherish it.

Ele’s have every right to their time in the spotlight. But if it comes at the expense of another profession, you may need to re-evaluate your definition of balance.

The Game Slayer.7632:

Balefire.7592:

The Game Slayer.7632:

Balefire.7592:

The Game Slayer.7632:

Balefire.7592:

The Game Slayer.7632:

ITS OUR TURN BABY!
this video can explain to you exactly whats going on.

PS: diamond skin has not shut down the necromancer class, just the necromancer condi builds. (just so that is clear)

Please tell me when was the last time a power Necro killed an Ele.
Especially given the fact we can no longer Chill, Cripple or Fear you to catch up with your mobility.

You’re thinking a little too simple tho darling. Baby you gotta think outside the box. What you’re feeling right now is similar to what i was feeling when eles got nerfed and other professions got buffed. I was forced to think outside the box, and experiment.

There is no “outside the box” here. Necros have no hard CC outside of the three conditions I listed (plus one Immob, which is also a condition). A dagger Necro simply cannot stay on any Ele with a pulse long enough to do damage.\
I don’t care that they nerfed condition damage builds. I care that they nerfed the few skills Necros had that could let them land damage/prevent escapes.

Yea, you shouldve heard me in the forums when eles got nerfed. Its all part of the cycle man. You’re soon going to realize that this is intended, that it’s eles time to shine, and that necros time to shine is coming to a close now. That doesn’t mean that necros are going to be completely useless, cause i stuck it out with ele and in a few weeks i found something half-way decent to carry me through to this patch. If you dont like the type of balancing anet does, that means theyre actually succeeding. Thats just the nature of imperfect balancing.

I’m well aware that Ele’s have suffered. But an eye for an eye leaves the world blind.
I’m not asking for the removal of Diamond Skin. You can keep it – but a version that doesn’t ruin everything Necros are about.

fortunately you have attacks that do damage and damage is what counters diamond skin. if the ele is outhealing you, that means hes full bunker and he cant kill you anyway. if he IS killing you, that means he is zerk spec and you’re power necro builds are going to rip him apart. give the meta some time to shift.

That’s the whole point though. If we can’t catch the Ele, we can’t do any damage. I’m not asking for a removal of the trait – keep your bleed, poison, burning and torment immunity. Condi spam is OP, so that’s valid. But my snares aren’t what kills you, they’re what allows me to actually be able to fight.

The Game Slayer.7632:

Balefire.7592:

The Game Slayer.7632:

Balefire.7592:

The Game Slayer.7632:

ITS OUR TURN BABY!
this video can explain to you exactly whats going on.

PS: diamond skin has not shut down the necromancer class, just the necromancer condi builds. (just so that is clear)

Please tell me when was the last time a power Necro killed an Ele.
Especially given the fact we can no longer Chill, Cripple or Fear you to catch up with your mobility.

You’re thinking a little too simple tho darling. Baby you gotta think outside the box. What you’re feeling right now is similar to what i was feeling when eles got nerfed and other professions got buffed. I was forced to think outside the box, and experiment.

There is no “outside the box” here. Necros have no hard CC outside of the three conditions I listed (plus one Immob, which is also a condition). A dagger Necro simply cannot stay on any Ele with a pulse long enough to do damage.\
I don’t care that they nerfed condition damage builds. I care that they nerfed the few skills Necros had that could let them land damage/prevent escapes.

Yea, you shouldve heard me in the forums when eles got nerfed. Its all part of the cycle man. You’re soon going to realize that this is intended, that it’s eles time to shine, and that necros time to shine is coming to a close now. That doesn’t mean that necros are going to be completely useless, cause i stuck it out with ele and in a few weeks i found something half-way decent to carry me through to this patch. If you dont like the type of balancing anet does, that means theyre actually succeeding. Thats just the nature of imperfect balancing.

I’m well aware that Ele’s have suffered. But an eye for an eye leaves the world blind.
I’m not asking for the removal of Diamond Skin. You can keep it – but a version that doesn’t ruin everything Necros are about.

The Game Slayer.7632:

Balefire.7592:

The Game Slayer.7632:

ITS OUR TURN BABY!
this video can explain to you exactly whats going on.

PS: diamond skin has not shut down the necromancer class, just the necromancer condi builds. (just so that is clear)

Please tell me when was the last time a power Necro killed an Ele.
Especially given the fact we can no longer Chill, Cripple or Fear you to catch up with your mobility.

You’re thinking a little too simple tho darling. Baby you gotta think outside the box. What you’re feeling right now is similar to what i was feeling when eles got nerfed and other professions got buffed. I was forced to think outside the box, and experiment.

There is no “outside the box” here. Necros have no hard CC outside of the three conditions I listed (plus one Immob, which is also a condition). A dagger Necro simply cannot stay on any Ele with a pulse long enough to do damage.\
I don’t care that they nerfed condition damage builds. I care that they nerfed the few skills Necros had that could let them land damage/prevent escapes. You have easy access to CC, swiftness, vigor and escapes/invulns with almost every weapon set, and you can kite both us and our minions. And we can’t do anything about it anymore because our skills don;t work.

Draehl.2681:

What Bhawb said. I’m waiting for the day when Necro can feasibly build for power/attrition and keep enemies from just running away if they start losing. Buff lifesteal/life force generation and our anti-disengage skills and maybe you’ll see Necros shift to other areas of play. Currently Axe does pathetic damage and Dagger (even before Diamond Skin) is too difficult to keep on top of enemies that try to kite and stay alive against other melee builds. Give us some other options and you can throw Dhuumfire out with last week’s casserole.

Exactly. Reasonable people don;t want to win all fights via OP condition builds – we want to have everything be somewhat even and have skill intensive fights. But we also don’t want to have zero viable builds, so until Power Necros get buffed, OP Condi is all we have.

The Game Slayer.7632:

ITS OUR TURN BABY!
this video can explain to you exactly whats going on.

PS: diamond skin has not shut down the necromancer class, just the necromancer condi builds. (just so that is clear)

Please tell me when was the last time a power Necro killed an Ele.
Especially given the fact we can no longer Chill, Cripple or Fear you to catch up with your mobility.

Vena.8436:

Balefire.7592:

The issue isn’t making the spec bad, it’s invalidating choices. Frankly, I wouldn’t mind moving to a meta where hybrids are only slightly worse than mix/max, but min/max gets screwed every so often. But a hybrid Necro, even a slight off-condition hybrid, simply isn’t up to par. The loss in condition damage isn’t equated by the gain in power.

Auto-attack choices that get the best of both worlds (offensive pressure from conditions and tanking stats) shouldn’t be valid choices. Conditions are notoriously low investment for their potent return vs. anything even remotely physical based.

The fact that necro could 1-spam people into submission in tanking gear, should tell you how stupid it was.

I agree, but Necros can’t do anything about that – ANET made Necros the way the did by choice. We shouldn’t have to be punished for bad design decisions. Necros have been complaining about our lack of capacity in other areas for ages now, and diddly squat gets done about it. Now, one of the few good things we had going for us got stripped, so you bet your kitten we’re upset.

The issue isn’t just 1-Spamming either. Try catching an Ele as a D/D Necro without Chill, Cripple or Fear.

I just want to put this here for perspective, since this thread seems to have more reasonable discussion.

jmatb.6307:

jmatb.6307:

So much terribad from the Suckromancer community

Yall just go back to your class forum and hug your ugly minions until they slap you in the face enough to realize that your class does not revolve around condis

I’ll be sure to do that on the day thieves admit their class doesn’t revolve around stealth and are willing to accept a trait that nullifies all damage from stealthed enemies above 90% health. As far as I’m aware, that would fix all “8k Backstab” problems, and would also nerf the Thief’s kiting capacity to the same level as invalidating a Necro’s cripple, chill and fear.

Vena.8436:

The condispam necro that cries about this trait sacrificed next to nothing because they could still slap you silly with endless condition pressure even while wearing nigh-complete tanking gear. Now they cry because they sacrificed offensive power and one completely team-play negligible trait made their bunker spec bad for it.

The issue isn’t making the spec bad, it’s invalidating choices. Frankly, I wouldn’t mind moving to a meta where hybrids are only slightly worse than mix/max, but min/max gets screwed every so often. But a hybrid Necro, even a slight off-condition hybrid, simply isn’t up to par. The loss in condition damage isn’t equated by the gain in power.

What I find funny/ludicrous is how if anyone suddenly got a trait making them immune to Stealthed attacks while above 90% health, Thieves would cry a “justified” hissy-fit. But we can’t do so given most of our skills and CC revolves around conditions.

jmatb.6307:

So much terribad from the Suckromancer community

Yall just go back to your class forum and hug your ugly minions until they slap you in the face enough to realize that your class does not revolve around condis

I’ll be sure to do that on the day thieves admit their class doesn’t revolve around stealth and are willing to accept a trait that nullifies all damage from stealthed enemies above 90% health. As far as I’m aware, that would fix all “8k Backstab” problems, and would also nerf the Thief’s kiting capacity to the same level as invalidating a Necro’s cripple, chill and fear.

Vena.8436:

Why is a trait that counters an idiotic top-heavy min/max build that could kill by auto-attack stacking conditions…. a bad thing? Min/maxed builds and specs will always get “hard” countered because they are completely one dimensional in damage.

Please, go on about that one trait that completely stops Zerker Backstabs, or that other trait that completely wrecks CC-Spam Warriors. I’ll be waiting.

I finally found a beast worthy of serving the forces of darkness.

Zenith.7301:

The concept of a heal that requires getting hit is just dumb. If anything, it should have been necromancers who got that warrior heal as “vampirism”.

You mean the Guardian heal, right? Because Guardians healing on hit makes total sense.

Andele.1306:

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

To fix the necromancer, I would personally get rid of the idea of focusing on an attrition class. There’s no point in having an attrition class, if PVE discourages it. So either change PVE to make attrition on-par with direct DPS, or change the focus of our class. Also, change Defiant/Unshakeable. Control is kind of our thing, so make it work against all champions.

The biggest elephant in the room currently is simply the lack of depth in the combat. There’s a lot of noise and fancy lights, but not a well thought structure that keeps it all together. It feels like they tossed a lot of things at the wall, just to see what would stick… and with the necro they didn’t throw very far. We have a lot of game elements, such as toughness, vitality and healing. But the defensive attributes aren’t as important as the offensive ones. This has made the game extremely in favor of DPS. In an unbalanced game with lots of insta-kills and defense that scales poorly, the best defense becomes killing things as quickly as possible. And that is not what attrition is about (quite the opposite). They’ve created a situation in which our class mechanic has no place.

Wont bother with the whats lacking and how they are shoving jhorrors in our face. But the base concepts we got are all good, thing is they got stripped off. Its not that they didnt throw stuff at the wall called necro, they threw way too much then ripped off most of it but some remains of it didnt fall off.
Also the pvp attrition thing could plain be remade for pvp into facetank kitten so hard that bosses cannot focus your allies. Think about it for a second how cool would it be if you could taunt with dark path or aggro wipe your allies by using spectral graps OR even better, while in DS bosses being unable to use aoe skills? We had such kitten (well the N/Me did) combined with punishing everyone for 1 persons mistake, thats what needs to return not some dopey oh we let you make someone run off a cliff from how ugly you look and hey you are immune to damage in 1v1 which noone cares about.
Think for 3 seconds how cool and confusing old DS would be which drops your body off in a invul state at a location and you hover around as a ghost which on leaving ds would rewind your location to your body OR you could drain your remaining life force to pull your body back to you (maybe chilling shiz on the way to you too)?

So then what could be done to change it?
Reading from the lore as given above, I would, for example, be in favor of changing the Spectral family into, say, utility skills that expended health in reward for larger benefits. Maybe “Armor of Blood” would eat 1/5th of your health and provide really long protection and stability on a short cooldown. Or maybe we could take the chill angle – Make “Well of Rime” and reverse Chilling Darkness, or “Hypothermia” instead of Terror.

Thematically, what changes would (A) make sense, and (B) improve our current situation?

Bhawb.7408:

No. Necromancers are not liches, we are not warlocks, this isn’t WoW.

But what is a necromancer, then? What differentiates it from a Lich, or a Warlock?

Andele.1306:

Balefire.7592:

Andele.1306:

Odokuro.5049:

I love how their nerfing Condi necro’s in pvp, but not WvW…

Yes let’s just allow a class to be able to be just as tanky as a Warrior, have a crap ton of HP, then Deathshroud, then pop on every single condi in the game in mere seconds, really lame to go up against a condi necro, knowing the application and reapplication of condi’s is constant.

Then unlike on a warrior, you use a daze followed by stun or root and kill the person~

Or you could, you know, run away?
We can’t catch you. We can’t catch anyone except other Necros.

Uhhh… i ment that the warrior dazes then stuns and kills the person…
Also i can very well catch a ranger, some bad mesmers and most warriors… the last one i wouldnt do because i dont like being a ping pong ball but i can~ DP+DP+hydro sigil+CB.

I wasn’t responding to you, I was adding to what you said. :/
If Odokuro, or anyone else really, has a difficult time fighting Necros, just don’t. We have a very difficult time catching people, and definitely cannot keep up.

We have lots of threads complaining about skills, traits, design decisions, balancing a playstyles, and a lot of them have really good ideas, while others have some not so good ideas. A lot of people seem to think the conceptual design of this profession is bad, while others fault Deathshroud, and some think that everything is fine but our skills/traits/numbers are just subpar. What interests me is the first group, as the “idea” of a Necromancer lays the foundation for all subsequent decisions.
Hence, I was wondering, if we as a community could re-design everything about from the ground up, what would we end up with? What fundamental design decisions would we change about the design of profession to improve our current state?
I’m not really looking for answers like “Oh, put that bleed back on Signet of Spite” – numbers and skill parameters can be changed with ease and are things that come in down the line. What I’m interested in hearing is more of conceptual design – things like “putting an attrition class in game built around big hits is not clever” or “having a family of unrelated skills that increase Life Force as added function seems disjointed and unimpressive.”

Andele.1306:

Odokuro.5049:

I love how their nerfing Condi necro’s in pvp, but not WvW…

Yes let’s just allow a class to be able to be just as tanky as a Warrior, have a crap ton of HP, then Deathshroud, then pop on every single condi in the game in mere seconds, really lame to go up against a condi necro, knowing the application and reapplication of condi’s is constant.

Then unlike on a warrior, you use a daze followed by stun or root and kill the person~

Or you could, you know, run away?
We can’t catch you. We can’t catch anyone except other Necros.

Street Peddler.2638:

To me it just seems like if people dont see a giant initial heal they call the skill bad. Same reason skelk venom is getting so much hate.

I’m willing to give almost any skill a chance. But not my precious heal slot.
Necromancers need better heals then some other professions because we don’t have defensive mechanisms that are as efficient. This skill is a poor heal, and while it could theoretically raise your groups DPS when active, having your zerk Warrior stop to res you since you have a bad heal is a net negative DPS gain.
I think this might actually be worse for groups than just using Axe with Well of Blood – the Axe auto-vuln will increase group DPS by itself, while Well of Blood is a better heal for yourself. You lose out on about 1k group healing with Well of Blood (minimal) but gain a light field instead.

Patchnotes on January 1st:
Class Updates
Warrior – Buffed to infinity.
Mesmer, Ranger, Ele, Engi, Guard, Thief – Changes.

Living Story
Free backpieces to everyone!

Bugfixes
Removed the 8th profession.

alanis.6094:

I’d like Death Shroud to no longer be a full damage absorb. Its a complete disaster to try to balance with it as it currently stands.

Allow Necro to take damage while in DS.

When going into DS, you get additional benefits — high toughness, stability, protection, or whatever.

Allow full use of heals, siphons, utilities while in DS.

This is honestly the best idea.
What if they shifted it from a transform into a bundle?
When you “enter” DS, you simply pick up a “DS bundle”. While holding that “DS bundle”, your skill bar gets replaced, but your health and utilities and such remain. Instead, you either spend Life Force to use the skills, or skills are based on LF% and LF decays slowly while you hold the bundle.
You get to keep your health and utility skills, so siphons, signets and minion actives still work, and ANET hardly has to touch traits or DS skills. Plus, we now get group healing and can make good usage of Regeneration. I can’t imagine this would be hard to code given Engineer Kits and how Life Blast used to work, since it would effectively just turn DS is a Necro bundle with a metered timer/resource. It would get rid of all preconceptions that a “second life bar” = “invulnerability.”
It would also let them update traits to more interesting things, since now being in “Death Shroud” is just as dangerous as being out of it, so maybe we could get Shade back, or toughness boosts while active or whatever.

As pointed out by Bhawb in another thread, if we’re going to suck, we may as well at least wallow in self-deprecating humor to ease things:

Bhawb.7408:

Balefire.7592:

Bhawb.7408:

The key “theme” of the skill was being able to drop guaranteed burst healing that a heal would normally give you, and in return have an incredibly aggressive, damaging heal. High risk/reward.

We’re already the best in kill or be killed scenarios, giving us this would just be too OP.

We’re too OP in the get killed category, we deserve some nerfs!

Balefire.7592:

ronpierce.2760:

OH NO, I HOPE A NET DOESN’T NERF OUR ABILITY TO SUCK SO HARD. That’ d be a crying shame!!!!!!!!!

It’s funny depressing because this skill doesn’t “suck”, especially not the opponent’s health.

Bhawb.7408:

+1. The comedy in this thread will keep me company tonight as I listen to some emo music, paint my nails black, and write poetry about how ANet hates us.

So let’s have at ’er – post all of your terribad Necromancer jokes in here so we can anguish as a community.

I’m too stubborn to switch too.
It’s just depressing is all. Really, what other options do we have?
The Devs seem to have forgotten our prof description, and ignore glaring issues by fixing “around” them…

ronpierce.2760:

Overkillengine.6084:

Balefire.7592:

Bhawb.7408:

The key “theme” of the skill was being able to drop guaranteed burst healing that a heal would normally give you, and in return have an incredibly aggressive, damaging heal. High risk/reward.

We’re already the best in kill or be killed scenarios, giving us this would just be too OP.

We’re too OP in the get killed category, we deserve some nerfs!

Wait.. idea…

OH NO, I HOPE A NET DOESN’T NERF OUR ABILITY TO SUCK SO HARD.

It’s funny depressing because this skill doesn’t “suck”, especially not the opponent’s health.

Bhawb.7408:

The key “theme” of the skill was being able to drop guaranteed burst healing that a heal would normally give you, and in return have an incredibly aggressive, damaging heal. High risk/reward.

We’re already the best in kill or be killed scenarios, giving us this would just be too OP.

Pendragon.8735:

Maybe Necro’s will stop asking to have themselves nerfed while not offering what the compensation is, or asking for things in return that they refuse to give us based on dogmatic and dated design intentions.

If they have different design intentions, I’d love see them. Or hear about them. Or have inkling that they exist. Until then, we will hold on to them.

They should just rename Vampiric Signet to Bad Healing Signet “ANET Prefers Warriors.”

Spoj The Second.7680:

Obviously they should get some more dedicated WvW players aswell but balance is focused around pvp and usually doesnt hinder wvw as much as it hinders pve.

I’m in one of SoR’s bigger WvW guilds, and most of it’s members would disagree.

I don’t know what we can do as Necromancers to avoid this anymore.
We’ve tried to have meaningful discussions.
We’ve tried making suggestions.
We’ve complained in our subforum.
We’ve complained in other subforums.
I’m a wit’s end here. Do we need to send them a cake again?

I mean really, I’m getting sick and tired of this. And I’m not the only one. I remember, once upon a time, when Bhawb would play devil’s advocate and defend some design components. Look at him now.

I spend money on the gem store. I play PvE. I play PvP. I play WvW. I am almost every target demographic this game has. Except I’m a necro, so apparently ANET won’t pander to my interests. I just don’t know what to do anymore.
I want meaningful Developer interaction. I want the developers to say what they think about us in its entirety. I want the community to be a part of something, and to stop festering hatred. I would like proof that there are people at ANET who actually play this profession.

I generally try to advocate diplomacy in all it’s forms, but clearly, we’re getting nowhere. I am more than willing to get infracted for this post, as long as the message gets passed up from the Mods to the developers. That’s how dedicated I am to this profession. And that dedication is getting stepped on at every available opportunity.
What do you guys thing we can do?

Perhaps it’s time to revive this thread or just go spam the SPvP and/or GW2 Discussion subforums then.
We clearly aren’t being heard, and we continue to be shafted at every opportunity.

Gilgamesh.7364:

SoR lost to TC because they’ve pretty much imploded around the 3rd week of leagues.

(no offense)

The scores from our Week 5 match happen to disagree; and as it turns, data, unlike people, is unbiased. SoR is weakened, yes, but that is not why TC won, nor can TC currently overwhelm us without additional pressure.
We came in 4th overall due to a confluence of factors: TC was presented with more matches where it would come out on top, SoR suffered morale issues and lost some guilds, and JQ saw it fit to put us in 3rd last week.