My plan was, as per their own forum rules, to use the search function to first check if anything was posted (lol, just lol, that thing is bad), and if not and it isn’t in the last week or so I’m going to post it. I assume at worst a “reminder” to the bug isn’t the worst thing in the world, and they can just do a 5 second copypasta “we know and have this on the list” and leave it behind.
I did the vampiric stuff. I think the staff bugs especially should also be a high priority. I am not sure about others, I know there are at least a few tooltip bugs that should be addressed as well, at least for new-player understanding.
please show me where I asked for this.
Its called inference, your comments present the position that you want mobility added to the class.
According to their bugs forum, lists are bad in general, unless asked for. I’d say things that are very closely related, post together, but not a huge list like “here are all PvE bugs in the entire game, good luck”, but something like “Necromancer staff bugs”.
That is exactly what you asked for. Blanket mobility or the kind to run away from fights (which is what was asked for) is completely contrary to their design for the class.
Flesh Golem’s charge has always been broken against structures. I still troll people by using my MM on Battle of Khylo, where even getting 3v1d I can easily take out a treb. It’s just too much fun.
I posted a bug only a few hours ago and already had a response, so I’m actually quite happy to see that. I would assume this is more a matter of making it more convenient and time efficient for them to address bugs, which is in our best interest, because that means more time fixing bugs, and less time trying to figure out what is bugged.
Awesome, good to know.
Traited HP values:
Blood/Flesh Golem – 33k HP
Bone Minions – 13k each
All others – 26k
So, although they obviously don’t have the real tankiness of players since they have no innate damage mitigation, they have really high HP values, and should be able to tank through a good amount of damage depending on boss.
All the other transformations are pretty gender neutral (Tornadoes don’t have genders afaik) or actually affect your own character model (Rampage). Lich is the unique one that makes you look specifically like a male entity.
It is possible though, as Riot said, that we are taking the appearance of something specific, and as such it doesn’t matter what gender or race we are, we all take the same appearance. I have a feeling though really this whole debate is just pulling stuff from our kitten to give ANet an excuse :P I’m not actually sure they put this much thought into it.
Oh, yeah. Per ten seconds. Which is still an absolutely ridiculous amount, really, that is essentially a full cleanse every 10 seconds.
It still presents an issue, it only shifts where the most powerful components lie. It would go from optimal situations going from power builds with lots of high AoE ticking capacity over to condition builds, who with things like Dumbfire+terror+poison+bleeding could get (theoretically, obviously) 28 ticks (25 from bleeding + 1 per other stack) per person.
Or specifically get up to 28*5=140 ticks AoE. If anything it’d make the problem even worse, because now the optimal case is even more ridiculous, as an amazing Epidemic is now worth massive healing as well (100 ticks/s with current values would be over 3k HP/s). So we’d end up with vampirics being closer to 10HP per hit.
Vampiric Master shows the best implementation of any of them. It is the most useful of any of them, and is the only one that people consider to support a siphon build. Why? It has a cap, you can only have so many minions, and they attack at a fixed speed. So with that, it has less optimal-case abuse, so the values remain quite high. In turn, it remains a really strong utility, even if you don’t use it at its prime use (its still a decent utility with 2-3 minions, not just 6).
They buffed base values so you didn’t need bloodthirst to have remotely useful values on life siphoning traits, and gave it some more scaling, so they have decent HP/s values.
The real problem with these traits is that they scale best with faster hits per second, meaning there is really weird optimization patterns (locust swarm, drop 4 wells, press the kitten out of 1 with dagger), and ends up with a smaller value than they would have otherwise.
I think they should buff them at base, and then make it once per second, like they did to Spectral Armor, to normalize it. So as long as you are actively hitting you get the siphoning, but no spike cases of getting like 15 procs per second, which ends up meaning all the other times it feels weak because those rare situations would be too strong if they buffed it.
Where at?
I’d like to see what simply removing the ICD would do to it. Still not helpful in many boss fights, but in any other area, it would be good. May be a bit too strong in WvW, though. A necro on an arrow cart would quickly become functionally immune to AoE damage.
It used to have no (or a tiny) ICD, and I guess ANet didn’t like it. I could see if we had any reliable method of keeping them alive.
The only real complaint I see with that is:
1. Death Nova. One minion spawned runs out, deals 1.7k damage, helps spawn another, which runs out, etc. It would have a ramping up effect, eventually you’d have a pretty consistent 5 minions dying often enough (obviously this is ideal and uncommon situations) that are dealing 8500 damage per wave. Not saying its enough of a reason, but I could see it being a possible consideration.
2. Fetid Consumption. While they are alive, its possible to have up to 11 minions up at once, meaning 11 conditions per ten seconds (wut).
But I’d rather just see them change the behaviors of those traits in regard to Jagged horrors than keep reanimator terrible.
(edited by Bhawb.7408)
I wanted a more clean thread that I could read over. I realize it is essentially the same (the only changes would be Blood Magic, mainly), and this will hopefully be nicely structured for easy look overs, which it is continuing to be for now.
Will do, went through the bug forums and saw that at least in the last 7 days (the search function is god awful and useless for any real investigation) none of the bugs I know of were reported. So at the worst you’ll probably get a reminder of some of them.
Vampiric, Vampiric Precision, and Vampiric Master have incorrect values for healing and damage, comparing tooltip to in game numbers, for some values. Others appear to be correct, all have been included for clarity.
At base, with a steady weapon and only the 20 trait points required to get all three at once, the listed values are:
Vampiric Precision (using sigil of intelligence to proc)
Listed Damage : 41 / Actual Damage : 39
Listed Healing: 40 / Actual Healing : 40 (accurate, but included for clarity)
Vampiric
Listed Damage : 33 / Actual Damage : 31
Listed Healing : 32 / Actual Healing : 32 (accurate, but included for clarity)
Vampiric Master
Listed Damage : 60 / Actual Damage : 63
Listed Healing : 70 / Actual Healing : 72
With Cleric Amulet and Jewel equipped (again nothing else)
Vampiric Precision (using sigil of intelligence to proc)
Listed Damage : 43 / Actual Damage : 41
Listed Healing: 44 / Actual Healing : 41
Vampiric
Listed Damage : 35 / Actual Damage : 33
Listed Healing : 36 / Actual Healing : 36 (accurate, but included for clarity)
Vampiric Master
Listed Damage : 69 / Actual Damage : 76
Listed Healing : 95 / Actual Healing : 72
Base, with 20 into Blood Magic for traits, but with Bloodthirst
Vampiric Precision (using sigil of intelligence to proc)
Listed Damage : 52 / Actual Damage : 50
Listed Healing: 50 / Actual Healing : 50
Vampiric
Listed Damage : 41 / Actual Damage : 39
Listed Healing : 39 / Actual Healing : 39
Vampiric Master
Listed Damage : 71 / Actual Damage : 76
Listed Healing : 63 / Actual Healing : 86
So it seems like some healing is correct, but the other numbers are off by a little bit, with Vampiric Master being pretty off.
Like Rennoko said, it really pays to have follow up. There are many Necro bugs, not just ones in a major new patch, that we report time and again, and to my knowledge its not even acknowledged…
But thanks for the info, I’ll dig through that and see if all the bugs that come to mind haven’t been addressed yet.
(edited by Bhawb.7408)
Like others have said, it isn’t Terror or fear itself. It is that we can fear-lock you with no way for you to avoid getting hit (try to dodge Doom), while stacking over 10 bleeds, and burning, and a ton of other cover conditions so by the time you blow:
1. Stun break to get rid of the fear
2. At least one full cleanse, or multiple small-cleanses
You’re left with almost nothing defensive left. And guess what, that entire rotation will be up again in 20 seconds, less than your defensive CDs will be.
And they often don’t. Even in PvE, its most useful area, it procs in areas you don’t need more help in (trash mobs), or procs after you’ve won (bosses). How many bosses are there were:
1. It procs during the boss fight
2. It doesn’t instantly die to the next boss attack
3. Then makes any kind of important contribution to the fight
Summoning 3 of them wouldn’t help that better. They’d still not proc at the right time, die to the next attack, or still do nothing anyway. That is why they need to proc at better times.
Honestly, this doesn’t fix the trait. The problem isn’t that each proc of the trait is weak (jagged horrors are decent in and of themselves). The problem is when and how often it procs. It procs at a bad time in 90% of situations, and procs too rarely.
In PvE, how many times have you had jagged horror proc when you kill the boss? Its a slap in the face, you had a trait that just did not a kitten thing all fight, until after you won. It is the most impactful in PvE, because it gives another bit of face-tanking and damage, but its still negligable.
In PvP its just bad. It almost always spawns when the fight is already over. “Hey guys I just got here can I… oh everyone is dead”.
WvW it isn’t bad on its own, because things are dying all the time. The problem is that it is going to die every bit as much as everything else.
The best suggestions to make this skill better I have seen include expanding what it can summon off of (allies and minions, although maybe at a reduced rate/not 100% chance), allowing it to spawn in the middle of fights, and then increasing its effectiveness a little bit.
The 1 second stability is to allow it to actually function as a stunbreaker. How sad would it be if you got stunned while casting your stunbreaker. So it has a “cover stability” to allow it to be cast.
This was a routine add-on they did to all new stunbreakers that had cast times already.
Frankly, if I was ANet, I’d be treating this like an extended super-beta/development period. Why start having big widespread releases to other areas when there is still a lot of core features and systems they are still working on rolling out? If they wait a bit longer until the game is a bit more “settled”, any new international releases will be much better received.
The League of legends “ready” system that kicks you from queue if you don’t press ready in time would be an excellent way to help solve this.
And if you leave in the middle of a match for any reason you get an automatic (small) time-ban that ramps up in severity quickly.
Seriously, LoL is miles ahead in terms of these systems, just start copypasta-ing what they do. We need to realize it will take time, but its still a very necessary thing to do soon.
They don’t “keep moving the goal posts”, that was removed pre-open beta.
Understandable, I just wonder if its a guildwars lore specific thing, or if it was just a shortcut design choice on their part, since they’d need up to 10 different models if they went that route.
I always assumed that we simply took on the look of a specific lich, or that was how all liches looked (are there female liches?). It never bothered me, even though all my characters are female.
From the original necromancer design concept, one of many things axed before people could even begin to understand the game.
Dark Path : Flash to target area and blind nearby foes. — In-game description [?]
just saying
Also one of our original design concepts was an unkillable tank that would make a mockery of any bunker currently in the game. That doesn’t mean it was good, just that it was in the game at one point. They nerfed it because it was too strong.
So, I want to open a discussion on the trait trees. But of Corpse will be doing a podcast where we go over the traits soon, so I want your opinion.
Please keep it civil, and format your stuff like this:
What traits do you really like?
This can be any traits that you feel really do their job nicely, say why you like them, and why you feel they do their job well.
For example, I love Death Nova because it punishes people for killing off my minions. It spawns poison fields, creates a lot of internal synergy with minions themselves, and is such a useful trait I find it hard to leave it out of any minion build.
What traits do you like conceptually, but feel fall short of what they could be?
This is a trait where you like where it seems to be going, but you feel it isn’t as good as it could be. Say why you like the idea, what about it you think falls short, and how you’d like to see it changed to bring it up to par.
For example, I think Reanimator is a cool idea. It summons you minions when you kill things (like an automated minion summon), and would give you the feel of a true undead master, summoning servants from the things you kill. However, it summons one mediocre minion (individually), that often dies before it takes any effect (since it summons after something dies), and rarely has any kind of “snowballing” effect like old GW1 MMs had, due to its long ICD.
I think there are a number of ways it could be changed, but I think the core problem is two fold. It feels very weak when it does proc, and it’s use is often wasted because it procs after you’ve already won. In PvE its kind of a slap in the face to barely win a boss fight, then have a Jagged Horror spawn from his deathbed, only to sit around and die while you collect loot (same thing in PvP).
The trait should be increased in how it can proc, for example proc off minions and allies as well, although maybe with less chance, and a slightly reduced ICD, and if needed have them die faster (I’d rather have three minions up in a small snowball effect that die off before the next fight, than one that spawns after the fight and dies in the first AoE of the next one).
What traits do you just plain dislike?
This should only be for traits that you feel aren’t just bad in execution, but even the idea seems flawed at best.
For example, Toxic Landing, creates a poison cloud when you take falling damage. When is this trait ever useful? It isn’t just niche, it has maybe a 1% chance of taking any kind of effect (getting chased by something that follows you off the cliff and into the poison cloud), and even then its almost never meaningful (big deal, they are poisoned now, something we can do readily anyway).
So again: talk about what traits you like, what traits you almost like but think need improvement, and traits you don’t like. Make sure to expand upon what you say. If you need to compare to other professions, please do so constructively.
Please keep it civil, and open. This isn’t the place to lament how bad we are, this isn’t a place to flame ANet, or any such thing, but have a good discussion, and one that ANet can look at for ideas.
Thank you for your time and input.
You took a sigil, 20 deep into curses, and all 6 of your runes to increase the CC. All of those could be put elsewhere to increase your damage. It is a power build that you tweaked quite a bit to put a larger emphasis on CC, when its really a lot of overkill. You could have just slotted bone fiend and called it a day, instead of sacrificing a fair bit of damage.
Today we will be going over the necromancer PvP builds used yesterday in the vVv Gaming tournament, and also the builds that we are personally using right now. If there is extra time at the end we’ll go over our PvE builds as well.
I believe most power builds go 30/10/0/0/30 or 30/15/0/0/25 (I’m not expert on what is common atm though). Generally what you would see is well of suffering, another well, and Spectral Armor. In your case, I would have dropped the extra well, and gone well of suffering, bone fiend, spectral armor, and then not worry so much about increasing my CC so much, since just that alone gives you 13s of immobilize if chained together, plus your daze.
Necromancers are in a similar place. They might not be quite as simplistic but they too are essentially a class with training-wheels attached at all times thanks to a massive effective health pool and easy AoE conditions.
Just to clarify, do you mean all Necros, or just the meta (30/20/0/0/20) Dumbfire build?
this doesnt matter to bawb he would rather parrot what he heard a dev say than think for himself.
You’re asking for them to change necromancers at the very core of what we are, contrary to everything they want us to be. It isn’t going to happen, no matter how much you “think for yourself”.
I wouldn’t push so much for the lockdown, to be honest. You don’t need to blow everything just for an extra second of CC.
Make a fairly standard power necro, but throw on bone fiend/warhorn and you should be pretty much set. The 20 into curses is still fine too, but I wouldn’t go too far out of your way to support the CC, since you have more than enough to setup a well burst and drop someone.
Great post symbolic.
I’d say that if Well of Blood was to be buffed, it can’t be to its healing. It would need to be some other kind of base-utility buff that didn’t necessarily scale with the healing it gave.
Vlad is unique because he has a certain cost associated with everything he does. You are required to consistently keep up E’s stacks to give yourself higher healing and damage, however it costs you more and more HP to do that. In return though, it buffs your Q, making you heal for more.
It could easily be translated to a weaponset (most likely), or even a utility skill. You need to consistently land a certain skill to keep up a buff on yourself. CC brings that down. That enforces good gameplay; its your job to keep stacks high, the enemy then wants to bring them low.
Aatrox is separate, he has a switching ability. He either gets really high damage at the cost of health, or he gets really high healing, but with basically no damage at all.
But both play with the idea of sacrificing HP, to gain certain benefits (more damage/healing), and then have to balance themselves on a razor’s edge of not killing themselves off with sacrifices, yet still being forced to play dangerously to be useful.
Swain is interesting in a different way in that he is either bursted down immediately, or he sits in your team and never dies. Separate, but similar. The key point of all three of these in-fight sustain based champions is that they have very low ranges, generally some high cost for their sustain, and are weak to burst, but incredibly dangerous if allowed to stay in the fight. Those are all good mechanics they need to add if they will actually give us the kind of sustain we want. People need to realize you can’t have safe, high damage, free sustain at 1200 range. If we get high sustain, it will be very high-risk high reward sustain.
Cho really doesn’t do anything related to sustain. He just becomes a massive HP tank that can walk around doing whatever he wants because he has 3k HP at 15 minutes.
It all depends on if ANet wants necros to be the Cho’Gaths or Aatrox’s. I’d be happy with either, really.
Aatrox, Vlad, and Swain put forward so many ideas for ways to add in meaningful (and not OP) siphoning into the game too.
Just look at league of legends. They have done amazing work on this kind of stuff, and while I realize not all of it could translate perfectly it would help a lot.
They changed it to prevent farming. The problem is a lot of the fun-nature of hotjoins was the ability to PvP when you weren’t able to commit the time to a tournament queue, were waiting for that queue, or didn’t need a full match (sometimes I’d try a build and within a few minutes realize it was crap, why finish the game?), or other such things. It’d still be nice to get my few points instead of never getting anything.
The “fix” just strikes me as lazy. It’d make it so you could only get through a game every 4 minutes, instead of 3 minutes where it was for farming before, and it made it require a small amount more work to abuse. Unless you have no system that can see the amount of glory gained, it should have been possible to fix by giving an auto-ban to people who did ridiculous things like gain a full game’s worth of glory in 2 minutes.
Separating every skill makes all balance three times more work intensive. That isn’t going to work.
anet needs to balance the classes for each game piece. WvW, spvp and pve, like they did with gw1. It’s a darn shame they haven’t.
Don’t use GW1 as a good example of balance. It was a terrible balance system. All they did was release so many skills at least some of them had to not-suck. But every single month there was something completely broken that people found, there were a lot of combinations that were completely broken if you didn’t have this one specific counter (Touch Necros, for example, were BS, unless you had an interrupt Mesmer, then they were useless).
Balance in GW1 was terrible. It was terrible for the players, it was terrible for the balance team. It was, at best, an unmanageable cluster-kitten that every so often just happened to be healthy for short amounts of time.
Actually, immobilize can 100% shut down entire builds. You can’t move or turn while immobilized, which means anyone that depends on facing the target to do their job is completely useless for 10+ seconds with the full immobilize unless they cleanse it.
Its a decent idea in theory, although I’m not sure of your build.
Really all you need is Bone Fiend + dagger and you have a massive immobilize duration, really, and its really hard to avoid.
Um dagger auto attack hits 4 times per second. That is 200 HP per second.
The entire dagger sequence of 4 attacks takes about 2 seconds.
I can get the DPS numbers for you, I wanted to make a better sheet for it anyway (my old DPS “chart” was scribbled on the back of a grocery list >.>).
If I recall correctly though, it was somewhere around 2-3k DPS averaged out.
Sorry if it came off wrong (and I see it probably looked off and I deleted the part that imo looked way too insulting): I don’t disagree with you that minions are great. What I disagree with is the idea that they will ever become meta. I really get everything you’re saying, I’ve tried to argue it all before, the problem is just that I don’t see the negative stigma that MMs have going away.
I’d be interested to see DPS numbers for other classes to compare though. This could be a really high DPS setup, and it is similar to what I was going to swap over to in PvE (but I wasn’t going blood magic).
Jportell… save your energy. Anyone who is serious about pvp knows that Moa is one of the weakest elites in the game. These guys are probably new to pvp and are still learning the ropes. I’ve decided to just cut them some slack and let them get a little more experience.
The problem with Moa is that it can, almost uniquely of any elite, be rendered absolutely useless very easily or guarantees you win a fight. For example, you are 1v1ing an MM on point. If you land Moa, they lose flat out. Nothing they do from that point on matters, they lost the fight. But if you miss, you just lost your elite with 0 effect at all except at most you forced out one dodge/whatever.
It just has far too big of a swing due to reliability. In the best cases it is far too strong (no single button should ever win you a fight like it can), and in the worst cases it is the worst elite in the game, no better than if you just didn’t slot one.
Ah well, I see, thanks for the speedy response. I feel like there is no reward to winning solo queue games now though, the baggies have like 2-3 candies that sell for like 20 c each instead of the cool new gear I could be collecting. Oh well I guess its still better than no reward from hotjoin..
Save it. It goes up to 2s or so later in the year.