Couldn’t make it, I am but a poor college student who keeps getting his money taken by ANet and Riot.
Just a note, Shadow Fiend has 2nd highest DPS (Flesh Wurm is third).
No, there is not a single skill in the game that you get immediate access to just by rolling a class that is a stun breaker (I don’t play thief much, so maybe steal?). There are abilities that are “unofficial” stun breakers that work off weapon skills, but those still require you to take that weapon, it is still some kind of “give”.
Official stun breakers are almost all tied to Utility skills, and not on a 15s CD with a number of extra effects. The lowest is tied for 25s, one warrior skill that cures a whopping one condition from yourself and allies, and breaks stun, and the Mesmer mantra that breaks stun and gives you stability twice. Not much of an effect, which is ofc to offset the strength of the low CD stun break. Again, still nearly double the CD of our skill.
Now, I do realize that there are a few “unofficial” stun breaks, mainly thieves and mesmers. If you’d like to make a case that there is any similarity between the defensive situations of us and them… lol. They rely completely upon evasion to not drop like rocks. If you were to take away the evasions/invulns/stealth they get, and try to get them to face tank like we are built to, they’d drop in half a burst from most classes. Just a full 5s terror (pressing two buttons for us) drops thieves for half their HP.
Its all about give/take. This is asking us to get a 100% free stun break for every necromancer build regardless of anything.
The “meta” for minions is always 20/0/20/20/0 base, Staff with A/F, full soldier gear, with the last 10 points in either Death or Blood magic. They aren’t (imo) the optimal MM setups, but they are easy and effective enough on their own.
That is such an OP idea I don’t even. Just look at the damage numbers (you can easily get Doom’s fear to tick 3 times with 30/20/0/0/20) and compare it to similarly damaging abilities. You’ll notice that in addition to massive AoE damage, it fears for its duration, is unavoidable except by sheer luck, has a 20s CD, and requires no setup nor after cast, meaning you can simply drop out and go on doing stuff.
If people want the “balanced” version of that, it already exists. It’s called Reaper’s Protection.
You didn’t see it before? He even makes the little squiggly movments.
I honestly wouldn’t follow that guide. Its over a year old, and a lot of information it posts is highly (highly) questionable. Axe is better than dagger? Scepter is a support weapon? Don’t use staff to solo PvE? To be fair, MAYBE those were better opinions over a year ago when GW2 was still in Beta and things (including mindset and popular thinking) were different, but nowadays I’d worry that it would only mislead new players, and do nothing but be good laughing material for others.
Fun fact, Shadow Fiend used to be on DS, where it fit in much better.
The original MM was god awful design, and while I had fun playing it I will never regret that they had to axe it.
Kraag himself listed why. Its a 0 give up, 15s CD stun break, are you kidding? You literally give nothing up, its base to every Necro, and is on a tiny CD. That’s why I suggested the trait. It puts you into DS, which is where you want to be anyway (if you would just leave DS you can get one off your normal bar), and has the ability to be put on an ICD to make it both worthwhile yet not too strong. Getting a stun break while in DS, especially without it being a trait, makes DS too strong of a defensive tool all around.
Honestly I could care less if I get stunned and I’m already in DS. I have doom to get them off me if I really need it, and DS is the ideal time for me to be stunned.
You can generate plenty of LF 1v1, you just can’t do it if you refuse (like many) to not give anything up for it.
You don’t want to leave DS when you’re stunned, stuns are going to be used before damage. Getting a stun break on entry gives you not just the break (which you want) but puts you into your main defense, which is what most people would want to be in to anticipate the incoming burst.
DS damage is based off your total attack, not just power. Meaning the more damage on your weapon, the more damage DS #1 does. Staff has the highest, but Axe is better than dagger.
I think they could add a trait that makes DS a stun break on entry with a decent ICD to balance. I’d much prefer it over adding it onto a skill, especially when the skill in question has a 15s CD, which is way too short for an actual stun breaker.
You don’t like Shadow Sperm and Flesh Turkey?
pets
I think you did that just to raise my blood pressure.
I agree necro’s pets need more brains.. ^^
And i want the option to sacrifice them all..
No thanks, I actually like how they operate atm. They don’t require extra microing (I’m not playing zerg kthx), but have just enough for you to have a decently high skill cap and feel like you’re doing something meaningful. They are finally really good on aggro (still lose it sometimes for pathing reasons, but that just comes with ANet’s bad map programming/LoS), and respond before some abilities even finish casting/hit.
As for killing them. They aren’t Mesmer clones, I like that some of them have unique on-death abilities (that are meaningful, not just kill becausewhynot, but are kind of like signets but not as badly designed as signets), but they don’t just feel like Shatters.
Yes. And now I’m playing a NECROMANCER. If you want dervishes go and ask for them.
Minion health is close to fine as is. I think certain ones might use a bit more, but that is it. Its actually difficult to kill minions 1v1 without playing Ele or focusing them if the MM wants to keep them alive. They do need some kind of ability to stay alive better in team fights though, maybe a scaling AoE reduction over 1 player.
No good synergy with Thieves? Man, run a venom share thief (using either just venom share, or even better venom share + leeching venoms) with an MM and you will be in godmode.
Warriors tend to like the crapload of combo fields you can put down as well. It just turns from the Necro being supported and boosted (like with basically every other combo), into us being the supports.
We already have scythes, both as standard staff skins and our own particles that are added on when using a staff. It’d be redundant to have more scythes.
That extra vitality is going to massively boost your defenses, and while precision is going to drop barbed precision its not that big of a loss.
Ele is nice. Lots of AoE buffing, great peeling in PvP.
No class out conditions a Necro with sheer condition application.
But pretty much every class has a condition build of some sort, with varying viability.
Honestly any class can be made to work with any other class. Most classes have some way to do AoE buffs, most classes have condition builds (which work nicely with us); you can find synergy if you want it. It might not be using the current FotM build, but it should still be fun for you guys to do. You can also always try out different builds together to find duo synergy.
Basically just pick a profession you enjoy and then you can make a build to synergize.
What build do you run? Every profession has some build that works with Necromancer in some way, it just depends on what build type you run.
You shouldn’t burst unless you are fairly certain the burst will stick. And a full burst should always include a fear at the end to force them to eat the condi ticks (or blow stun breaks). If you burst and someone just cleanses it all away, then yeah you’ve wasted everything.
Basically you mainly AA and use very low CD (or unimportant for burst) skills for sustained DPS, you fake bursts or otherwise try to get them to blow all their ways to stop your burst, then you burst when they can’t do anything about it.
Edit: Also, bursting is far less effective if you aren’t using Weakening Shroud, Geomancy sigil, and Terror. Dhuumfire also makes it stronger but not as needed.
(edited by Bhawb.7408)
Also, remember that yoloQ tends towards FotM builds even more than high level play. In high level, you will only ever have one stunlocking warrior, or one Necro because you need good team balance. Those builds need others to back them up, bunkers to hold points, people to push far, etc. But in yoloQ that isn’t a consideration. You know stunlock warriors are OP from the forums so you play one. The other 4 guys you queued with are also playing what they learned of as OP. So the chances of seeing a 3 warrior 2 necro team (for example) is very high.
It leads to yoloQ having some… interesting meta and gameplay.
There is a difference between yoloQ (stun meta with warriors) and actual high level tPvP team meta, which is massively condi right now.
Necromancers aren’t all that OP in yoloQ because of how reliant we are on our team to help us. When Dhuumfire+Terror was pre-nerf we were still really strong because even with a crap team you could pretty easily assassinate one target, and put out a lot of AoE pressure before you got downed, which meant in an equal skill matchup your team should be able to finish up, but our damage is a bit lower now and that isn’t so big.
But in team setups where we do have people to watch out for us, and stun-locking just doesn’t work as well (lol warriors in high level teams), the strength of condi Necros really shines.
Yeah, the whole A/F setup is amazing for MMs, but I would never use it otherwise.
Huh, for whatever reason I thought he was. That’s what I get for assuming. Anyway yeah, stay out of melee range and DS 2.
Also to note, put out as much offensive pressure as you can when out of melee range. A lot of condi Necro counter-pressure is tied into melee range, when you are at range they can still do strong sustained DPS, but it won’t have the same burst potential, and they can’t do it while being defensive.
We have two major things that differentiate us from other condi classes. The first is sheer condition output. Your weapon skills will apply not just bleeding, but cripple, chill, poison, and weakness, along with having the chance to crit for burning. That is up to 6 conditions applied very quickly, and many classes don’t have the same luxury we (did, WAI ANET WAI YOU KILL PUTRID MARK) do of being able to void our entire bar of conditions.
The second is fear. You can get off half(ish, depending on fear duration) of your burst under the cover of Doom alone. No other condi class has that luxury.
Not saying thakittens easy. But we are the top condi class right now for a reason. Also, we actually can do a ton of counter-pressure. Want weakness, cripple, or chill on your target to keep them off you? Its part of your rotation anyway, and will stack bleeds. Fearing them to keep them off you? Burst them while they are stuck (which can force stunbreaks if they don’t want to eat the damage), and they are taking Terror damage anyway. Going into DS? Swapping weapons? Both are defensive options that work great while under pressure and both provide offense.
Currently we aren’t as OP as we used to be on the counter-pressure front, but it used to be very easy to down at least one person while their team focused you down. You’d go down as well, but you’d provide a ton of counter pressure while doing it.
@Rennoko and that line. Besides dodging the bigger things, Doom/fears can be used to keep him out of the 240 range that will keep you out of 5 stacks of bleeds. Also remember that in general, the fight between a condi Necro and another Necro comes down to who transfers first. Bait him into blowing his transfer, then transfer it right back and you essentially won outright.
(edited by Bhawb.7408)
Unless you’re an MM, in which case A/F can easily uphold 20 stacks of vuln, decent retal uptime, cripple/chill to keep minions in range, a bit of boon stripping to try to keep them down, a bit of possible regen, and then if you get the chance you can use Axe 2 for some decent damage and LF.
Its an amazing MM weapon. It needs a bit more work, but don’t go killing the best MM setup because you want another power weapon.
This was what came to mind for me as well. I like how we all talk about this being commonplace and non-remarkable, but seriously, what is the target doing while you are spamming everything you have in that 5-6 second window?
I guess if he has no condition removal at all, his dodge key is broken, and he forgot any anti-condition skills and immunities, then okay.
We’re assuming you are smart enough to not spam out skills while he’s in the middle of invuln frames. If you get partway through and he starts blowing all his CDs then you’ve done what you wanted to anyway. It means he’s putting his big defenses on CD (our burst is on a tiny CD compared to defensive CDs) while you’ve just used a few abilities that will be back in 15s max.
Not saying that you can just walk in and start jamming buttons all the time and make it work, but we’re assuming here that you actually know how to, you know, play.
I definitely like the core ideas, I just think that it might turn out to be a bit too much healing if it were implemented straight as is. But they can always tune numbers.
I think they could forego lore for skins.
I think all those changes at once would be too strong, that’d add a lot of potential healing with little investment. But I like the ideas there, regardless.
I’d only ever use Hemophilia if you aren’t using wells, aren’t using plague, and are too far away for Weakening Shroud to take effect often enough. Otherwise its lackluster compared to Chilling Darkness, Weakening Shroud, or Focused Rituals (imo). Oh, and also if you aren’t hitting the 100% cap as well. If those conditions are met, take it.
I also think its way stronger in PvE and pretty bad in PvP/WvW.
Thanks for the updated guides btw. I’ll go through them sometime, maybe I can finally figure out how to condi Necro without being a baddie.
(edited by Bhawb.7408)
Talk to any tPvPer and they’ll tell you Necros burst bleeds all the time. Its not remotely rare or amazing, its pretty commonplace.
Its a really common rotation. Lets just say you start with staff. Staff 2+3, swap to S/D, 2+5, jump into DS, DS 2+5+4 (usually you want to doom if they haven’t cleansed now, it forces CDs), and they’ll be on 16 bleeds with poison, chill, cripple, weakness, torment, immobilized once DS 5 ends, and feared; burning if you have it. You should pretty much always have Geomancy sigil and Weakening Shroud because of this, it means you can burst 14 bleeds and fear them to force stun breaks (or 2 ticks extra) every 20 seconds, and then bigger bursts when DS 4/5 is up. Plus you almost always get some decent Barbed Precision procs.
That is why people QQ (reasonably or not) about condi Necros.
Including Weakening Shroud, Geomancy Sigil, and Dark Path and you have another 8 bleeds on top of that.
I just listed how he could do it. Its 16 stacks of bleeds with a rotation, and then 4 barbed precision procs.
You’re assuming he is completely accurate on the 5 second mark. Its a very rough estimation he made after the match, it doesn’t mean he recorded the match and then took a stopwatch and counted the seconds from the first bleed application till it hit 20 and it was 5s.
You do not need the +damage in a minion build. There are a lot of builds that don’t require it at all because they get damage from other sources (or aren’t as concerned about damage).
That said, I don’t feel like the 20 into SR makes sense with your build. You don’t have the luxury of sitting in DS for long periods of time as an MM, you need to be using your skills fairly constantly to keep control effects on your target (to allow minions to stay on them to DPS) or if you’re in a build that doesn’t use minions as DPS, you should be using their for their utility to set up your own damage. Either way, you just can’t sit in DS long enough for the SR traits to be worthwhile. Also, all your minion siphoning doesn’t work while you’re in DS, so you are effectively losing a lot of your healing.
If you really like the DS, I suggest dropping the blood magic traits completely, going off what you want right now, you’re looking at wanting a minion/DS hybrid (which is fine). Put 10 more in SR, and grab Deathly Perception and Unyielding Blast for the Adept. Then you can drop those extra 10 in Spite for the Reaper’s Might. This will give you a lot of damage, your minions will give you a lot of control (and if you are using Shadow Fiend a lot of LF as well), with the minions being able to distract and control mobs for you while you blast away in DS.
Its unlikely he had to rely on transfers, you can easily drop 20 bleeds without it. Almost every condi necro should be able to hit 20 with a bit of help from barbed precision.
Sigil of Geomancy + your standard bleeds from abilities: Mark of Blood, Dark Path, Grasping Dead, Enfeebling Blood (x2 from Weakening Shroud). Not including any AA or Barbed Precision procs, that is 16 bleeds. The full combo is up every 25 seconds, 15 seconds if you drop Dagger 5’s Enfeeblind blood. Generally speaking its also used with Chillblains, DS5+4, one source of fear (generally Doom), and then any of our utilities that you might have to add in some burst, such as Signet of Spite and Epidemic (in team fights) when you are going for the full damage.
I’m talking solely DPS warriors. They are doing really well right now in PvP/WvW with their control builds, but those have very low DPS relative to a class power necro. DPS warriors have been trash tier everywhere but PvE for many, many months.
We have plenty of control, more than most other glass builds can boast via chill, immob, and fears just from rolling Necro. Then you can pick up more control (since DPS Necros only need WoC for DPS reasons, the other three utility/elite slots are open), or more damage. We have low escape, but that is just a tradeoff. You will never have a build that gets everything all at once, we trade of escape for the high control. The other builds generally need support to help control people, we need help getting away.
And our damage is not low at all, in any game mode. We’re weak because of the lack of escapes, which will never be solved on our own, it will always require a team (which is good).
The reason pure DPS warriors lack in general PvP is their lack of sufficient control (in high DPS builds) compared to others. Every pure direct damage DPS class that works well in PvP either has high innate control (necromancers), or high “survivability” (eles, mesmers, thieves); their ability to lock a target down and burst them, or their ability to get out after bursting, respectively.
Warriors can’t have high DPS and control in one build, and they generally don’t have the ability to escape at all. In PvP this is why you almost never see a glass DPS warrior except with the very, very best warriors. In PvE however, their ability to get themselves up to the “perfect” scenarios, plus the fact that lack of control or escape means diddly squat with how easy PvE is, makes them perfect there.
TL;DR, PvE mechanics blatantly favor warriors over every other DPS build, yet in turn warriors end up sucking in WvW and PvP because of it. Necros suffer a bit in PvE because a lot of our effective power is tied up in things that have no actual strength in PvE. (I’m sure you know all this, just explaining for anyone else).
His build is 100% about countering the meta he saw to get into the top 100. He got into the top 100. That is it. He isn’t there saying he found the best necro tank build, or that he has a super amazing build that is going to be the new meta, he put in a flippin disclaimer that says that, he just posted a build that works in very niche situations (top 100ish meta). Don’t worry, he’s not trying to take over your position, you can calm down.
You can’t just increase power necro DPS unless they do it PvE only (in which case they wouldn’t just axe an entire trait), because of how much DPS we can actually put out in WvW/PvP where we don’t have to contend with perfect 100b scenarios. We have too much control to be allowed to match warriors in DPS.
Withering precision is a defensive/support option. Remake the trait so it accomplishes its goal in a different way. Maybe include a chill component.
There will always be a variation of ranks that occurs due to the “kitten happens” principle. But it remains that I would never get rank 1 because frankly I’m not that good, nor would I ever drop to the sub 10% spots because I’m not that bad. You’re making the argument that Bronze d5 players in LoL make “I’m super good, I just always get bad teams”.
The reality is that to get into the top 100, you need to be more skillful than most of the community. You might luck into the top 100 for a while if you are “truly” a rank 200 player, but if I sat a friend down (who’s never played gw2) and told him to get top 100, it wouldn’t happen. Why? Because luck, while part of the equation, is fairly small.
No thanks, don’t need power necros taking up more slots in the condi necro tree.
I’m sure people will QQ, but its a very small, preventable amount of utility (entirely preventable, just don’t attack him), so I can’t see them using it as a reasonable excuse for no UI.