Guild Wars 2

Sin.8174:

Birdy.4816:

luchifer.6401:

In my opinion WoW is for people with a lot of free time, who upon login, wait for their guild member, prepare themselves and then commit 5 hours in a raid hunting for gear, while GW2 is for people who play whenever they can, and upon login into the game can siege a keep, take it, get killed, lost the keep, retake it, and do all that in 1 hour of play. Sure the fight will get repetitive eventualy, and there is no gear grind, but the same can be said about Battlefield 3.

There is a gear grind and its worse than WoWs, either grind 42k karma, grind insane ammounts of gold, or grind 1500 tokens (30 tokens per run per 2-3 hours) to get exotic gear that actually looks good.

Your opinion is wrong.

WoW – you can use Looking-For-Raid which means you get to do the nice raid content at any point with randoms (its also easier to cater to that fact) and still be rewarded for it.

In guild Wars there is no rewards in PvE for killing bosses other than tokens and awful loot. so it is literally a pure grind.

People WANT to think this game is more accessible, fun and rewarding, the end-game isnt though, its an unfinished mess of archiac guild wars 1 style grinding that only 24/7 players will enjoy.

Go. Play. WoW.

Why is that so hard for you? YOu sit here whining…for what? You seemingly don’t like the game. The PvE content doesn’t cater to WoW-types.

It’s not a hardcore PvE player’s game. PvE is simply the side game. Kind of like.. what Pvp is to WoW. I like the game. It plays the way i like. I prefer pvp, and I do pve on the side. In WoW… yeah. Forget about it. Good PvE… broken pvp.

You’re not content here. Nothing’s going to change in your favor… so why not just go play the game you enjoy, so the rest of us can be in peace?

I don’t play WoW anymore.

And yes it is a PvE’rs game, seeing as you know, the entire world is based around it, loads of dungeons (just not designed well for level 80), show me where arena net have stated pvp is valued more?

Another baseless excuse, bottom line fact here is, arenanets pve endgame isnt complete so they have thrown this token grind to keep us busy. and it sucks.

ChairGraveyard.2967:

Birdy.4816:

Completing challenging heroics

LOL! WoW and challenging don’t belong in the same sentence.

And this game does in comparison? don’t give me such childish response. link me up your 100% heroic raiding completions with hard modes and challenges. oh right you never even got close.

People have completed this games dungeons and achievements already, effortlessly.

Fact still remains, grinding a legendary is crap compared to social, teamwork dungeon crawling, only a complete fanboy in denial would say otherwise.

August.2678:

luchifer.6401:

In my opinion WoW is for people with a lot of free time, who upon login, wait for their guild member, prepare themselves and then commit 5 hours in a raid hunting for gear, while GW2 is for people who play whenever they can, and upon login into the game can siege a keep, take it, get killed, lost the keep, retake it, and do all that in 1 hour of play. Sure the fight will get repetitive eventualy, and there is no gear grind, but the same can be said about Battlefield 3.

Which is why I personally really like GW2. It’s successfully implemented more “casual” players (not to say that these people are your avarage “casuals”, but just not the hardcore, 24/7 playing kind) to be able to play GW2 by jumping in now and then, and still getting things done without having to play all day, every day.

However, I do think there is some truth to some of the complaints from real hardcore players that there is not enough content for them. Now, there is a lot to do in GW2, getting a 100% explored map, the PvP modes, dungeons etc, but not everyone wants to do everything. There should be enough content for hardcore players for each kind of playmode in GW2.
So I hope soon there will be some new (free) content updates, so that the hardcore crowd has more to do.

Thank You sir, out of the majority of posters on this forum, you are perhaps one of the only ones who can objectively look at the good and the bad points and recognize the importance of both.

+1.

You give me hope.

ChairGraveyard.2967:

Birdy.4816:

Or mindlessly grinding 1000s of ores and leveling 100 times over for an aesthetic slightly flashier weapon.

Yes because running a “raid” (highly scripted boss fight where everyone facerolls the keyboard) 1000s of times is SOOOO much different.

… losing faith in people on the internet.

Completing challenging heroics, fighting epic bosses (Scripted is a problem to you? ALL THESE GAMES ARE SCRIPTED…. ALL GAMES ARE SCRIPTED AT THE CORE.) and having the thrill of awesome random drops, and unlockables, titles…

Isn’t generally more fun than … going around Orr…. mining veins for 100s of hours…. to get a weapon that looks slightly better than the rest, has no more power …… just 1 weapon… not a completely revamped character with cool unlocks… just 1 weapon…. to signify you grinding materials and effortless “scripted mobs” for 100s of hours..

Man I wish you would make an MMO, I’m sure people would flock to it.

Jukka.6789:

hi
I dont know if such topic already exists on this forum, so forgive me if it does.
So, Will Gw2 beat (as it was said) Wow? Will it have more players, be more enjoyable and epic etc? Obviously you can’t say if it did already, cause its too early (Wow is out for ages, Gw2 is still young). Some people say that they don’t see them selfs in Gw2 in the future. What if Pandas arent that bad? What if THEY ARE BETTER THAN GW2?! Speak your opinion

No, because Guild Wars 2 PvE end-game is non-existant, meanwhile Panda Land comes out in 2 weeks with ALOT of PvE end-game content.

Meaning most PvErs will go there (being the majority of mmo players) and all the PvPers will childishly say “Good, we didnt need you” … massive game population decline, not so supported.

To beat WoW, it needed to be better AND compete in its strongest areas. PvE endgame is incredible weak in GW2… no chance on earth.

Creslin.1758:

Everyone has to come to the realization that all MMORPGs are finite. This means that at some point, you will run out of “new” stuff to do, and have to repeat stuff you have already done over and over again.

There is quite literally, no way around this. The rate of content consumption vastly exceeds the rate of content generation. You will run out of content.

So either find something in the game that you enjoy doing repeatedly…or just stop playing for now, do something else, and come back when new content is added.

…. good business model.

Why make this excuse when every other mmo at least tries to make repeatable content worhwhile where as this game currently doesn’t

mind boggeled at these responses. they are missing a major part of the MMO and because the rose-tinted goggles are still in place these kind of excuses fly out of the woodwork that would simply not be accepted in any other game.

Its madness.

SirMoogie.9263:

Birdy.4816:

Serious to god the apologist can’t understand that you need a healthy balance of challenge and reward in order to trigger fun, not just challenge for the sake of challenge in a genre CALLED ROLE-PLAYING where your character progresses in a variety of ways VIA REWARDS.

No I don’t understand, but it is not that I am an apologist as I criticize the game in other postings, even in this very thread and the post you quoted. Why does there need to be gear progression if the game is already fun and challenging? I would like to understand, but you cannot make me understand by fiat.

Why does this MMO have to be an exception to a rule where reward = fun. why are elitest people that have beat explorable mode defending such crap just because they want to sit infront of their computer and grind 1500 tokens to get rewards when there are much better systems to use to cater to everyone INCLUDING THEM.

luchifer.6401:

In my opinion WoW is for people with a lot of free time, who upon login, wait for their guild member, prepare themselves and then commit 5 hours in a raid hunting for gear, while GW2 is for people who play whenever they can, and upon login into the game can siege a keep, take it, get killed, lost the keep, retake it, and do all that in 1 hour of play. Sure the fight will get repetitive eventualy, and there is no gear grind, but the same can be said about Battlefield 3.

There is a gear grind and its worse than WoWs, either grind 42k karma, grind insane ammounts of gold, or grind 1500 tokens (30 tokens per run per 2-3 hours) to get exotic gear that actually looks good.

Your opinion is wrong.

WoW – you can use Looking-For-Raid which means you get to do the nice raid content at any point with randoms (its also easier to cater to that fact) and still be rewarded for it.

In guild Wars there is no rewards in PvE for killing bosses other than tokens and awful loot. so it is literally a pure grind.

People WANT to think this game is more accessible, fun and rewarding, the end-game isnt though, its an unfinished mess of archiac guild wars 1 style grinding that only 24/7 players will enjoy.

My problem is not with the challenge, but the grind and reward are horrendous and there is no “middle-way” im fine for challenge. but I dont want to grind 1500 tokens for an armour set. from the first 1-2 bosses.

ColinJohanson.2394:

No need to buy them, Gw2 will feature consistent free content updates and in-game events going forward. Our goal is to make it so you get more from Gw2 for free than you get from a game you pay a subscription for.

On top of a large amount of free bonus content, we will be expanding on offerings in the Black Lion Trading Company going forward, as well as be doing large-scale expansion content down the road.

We’ll cover a lot of the details on the kind of support and plans we have in place over the next month or so on the Gw2 blog and with our press partners.

We do appreciate that you’d like to buy lots of new content, but we’d prefer to give a lot of it to you for free, cause that’s what we think a responsible MMO company does!

Can you at least confirm one thing?

That you will be catering to PvE Dungeon/Raiders/Crawlers (at level 80) and be revamping the current system for more fun/challenge/reward balance.

Every second to level 80 was fantastic and even some stuff after that (jump puzzles <3) and pvp is great.

But the current dungeon system is not that fun or rewarding.

Can you shred any light on this subject or at least say you will be soon?

ChairGraveyard.2967:

The people that have level capped and claim they have nothing to do are outright lying. None of them have legendaries thus far.

Hmmm, a well thought out end-game with tons of dungeons and challenging rewards, interesting mechanics and content for more than 5 people at once.

Or mindlessly grinding 1000s of ores and leveling 100 times over for an aesthetic slightly flashier weapon.

OH THANK YOU FOR THE AMAZING END-GAME.

gurugeorge.9857:

Razamis.1062:

Are you kidding? GW2 is a little over 2 weeks old and already people are level capping and finding that there is absolutely nothing to do in this game.

Correction: “some people are level capping”. But some people were level-capping two weeks into WoW too.

Some people level-capping 2 weeks into an MMO is not a measure of anything, because it happens in every MMO.

What matters is how the bulk of the population is faring, and that, only Arenanet have the relevant datamining capability to know.

You level cap 2 weeks in WoW, then you have a very well thought out character progression that takes a whole lot longer, based on social teamwork and provides both team-work and challenge.

Non-existant in GW2 atm unless your a massive PvP fan, PvErs are royally screwed.

sandstrom.5938:

As the title says, I was doing CM with some friends, and we started discussing how odd it would feel to go back to a standard MMO like Everquest, WoW and Rift, where you can’t dodge and evade the enemies attacks.

Where you have to go to the bank or a vendor, when your bags are full.

Where there’s no rewards for helping other people.

Where you can’t change your whole playstyle instantly.

Well there’s alot more stuff Guild Wars does excellent compared to other mmos, lots off small things and features I now take for granted.
I know, I can’t enjoy another “standard” MMO anymore, and whether you really like Guild Wars 2 or not, the time in Guild Wars 2 is gonna leave a mark. So, could you go back to a “standard” MMO after GW2?

Hope you understand the question, and sorry for my english. -.-

Game mechanic wise this is excellent,

But YES I can EASILY go back because this game has no GOOD end-game content. sorry but until that is there, it literally is “flashy for 80 hours, then bargain bin”.

SirMoogie.9263:

Birdy.4816:

The one major element is the dungeon crawl, the good, indepthful mechanics of later bosses, the bigger community guild raids ect.

I don’t know if you noticed, but even Blizzard acknowledged their highly specialized raids ruined their game for a majority of their player base, ergo they changed it to offer easier access to them; which partially solved the problem. I agree with Blizzard and agree with Arena Nets decision to forgo highly specialized raids (i.e., they require a large number of participants, the right gear, and hours on end, and reset progress made).

You honestly trying to tell use that doing little minor asthetic things is worth it compared to playing awesome dungeons that offer alot of fun, challenge AND REWARD in all shapes and sizes isn’t part of the “An MMO to appeal to everyone” philosophy?

The game may lack challenge, I’ll give you that, but I see no reason why rewards have to offer power or character progression if the content is indeed fun and challenging. Games are meant to be fun and challenging, they are not required to doll out goodies. Stat progression only creates a system of optimization that precludes entry to content. Everyone should be able to enjoy the fun and challenge without being excluded because they lack the right stats.

1) No, unlike Arenanet, Blizzard has given their users a choice. LF Raid is for the casual encounter players to still progress their characters with a smaller challenge yet experience the content, and give rewards relative to that progression (Similar looking sets but weaker or uglier)

Then there is Normal mode for medium challenge for people who want the “normal difficulty as intended”

Then there is Heroic mode for those that want serious challenge with best reward.

NOW there is challenge mode which is even higher again with leaderboards and statistics which is a much better system than this game’s idea of “Playing for the challenge”

None of which require you to grind 1000s of tokens, none of which are flat and stale, none of which provide no reward over really really long intervals of time. none of which pretend that only challenge matters, YOU NEED A BALANCE OF BOTH.

Serious to god the apologist can’t understand that you need a healthy balance of challenge and reward in order to trigger fun, not just challenge for the sake of challenge in a genre CALLED ROLE-PLAYING where your character progresses in a variety of ways VIA REWARDS.

Serp.3264:

Birdy.4816:

The one major element is the dungeon crawl, the good, indepthful mechanics of later bosses, the bigger community guild raids ect.

All not present. and are typically the only things that stick for a long time.

This is another misconception. There are games out there that have been successful without the main focus being on dungeons. Look at Dark Age of Camelot for instance. That game was all about RvR (Realm vs Realm) warfare. The PvE in that game was very mindless, and it was only done so you could get to RvR. RvR was all about fighting the other realms, claiming their keeps/towers/relics. That game is still going today. Is it the largest game in the genre? No, but that doesn’t mean it doesn’t have staying power. It is still around 12(?) years later.

A dead game before MMO’s were much bigger? so what? DoAC succeeded to stay a float but it doesnt change the fact that games like Everquest and Final Fantasy 11 were still leagues more popular. (pre-WoW age)

You have no point. there is no reason this game should leave such a fundemental aspect out.

Serp.3264:

Birdy.4816:

Serp.3264:

Azzras.8041:

So you’re saying the only endgame for cap level players is PvP when a majority of the game is PvE?

That isn’t what I said at all. You are thinking about “endgame” wrong. For a cap level player, you can work on your crafting skills, you can explore the maps (hearts, points of interest, vistas, etc), you can do all of the dungeons, you can work on achievements, etc. If you have completed all of that, great, try another class out! You don’t need to be level 80 to complete a large majority of the content in this game. That is the beauty of it.

The whole concept of endgame being some big task that you repeat over and over again for gear is something that GW2 has been trying to get away from. You should be doing things in a progression.

No it hasn,t theyve said they want the whole game to be like end-game, only ironically it isn’t because the end-game is non-existant for PvE players (notice how i say PvE players, not crafters or achievement gatherers)

The one major element is the dungeon crawl, the good, indepthful mechanics of later bosses, the bigger community guild raids ect.

All not present. and are typically the only things that stick for a long time.

You honestly trying to tell use that doing little minor asthetic things is worth it compared to playing awesome dungeons that offer alot of fun, challenge AND REWARD in all shapes and sizes isn’t part of the “An MMO to appeal to everyone” philosophy?

Arenanet didn’t have time to do it, but they will, they MUST. it is stupid to create such a good game and leave this out. there is no rational reason not to, it is MUCH better than what is currently in place.

You can’t disregard huge aspects of the game like achievements, PvP, crafting, etc. If you focus purely on one aspect of this game, you will be disappointed no matter what you do. This game has a ton to offer, try going outside your comfort zone and trying PvP, achievement gathering, crafting, etc. This game doesn’t have to be just a rush to gain experience and gear (which I assume is what you consider “PvE” considering you don’t like achievements or crafting).

400 Jeweler, 354 Chef. 1k achievements, only rank 5 PvP but I realm v realm aswell, don’t put words in my mouth that I never said.

Point is most MMOs coming out now do all of these aspects and focus on dungeon crawling aswell, I don’t see how you can back them up for having such a mediocre PvE end-game when PvE to that point is a massive element and massive selling point.

“The MMO for everyone who loves and hates MMOs – but not you dungeon crawler/raiders…. despite being the biggest market of this genre…. will you be happy grinding 1500 tokens over 300 hours for 1 set of gear in the same isntance and only the first boss?”

THINK ABOUT WHAT YOU ARE SAYING.

Dallas.2536:

while you are at it I would like to obtain pvp rank 80 in 2 weeks please

Why not, apparently you apologists are playing for fun so why do the grinds need to be so long and why does it matter what we wear over other people?

Hypocrites to the highest degree.

Serp.3264:

Birdy.4816:

PvE is VITAL to an MMO’s success even this one.

If Arena-net have plans, instead of making stupid articles telling us what “MINOR” content we can do once we hit 80 that we mostly have already done, why don’t they come out and say:

“Hey, we hear you PvE lovers, our PvE Team is slaving hard away to rebalance loot tables, make more engaging encounters, make HEAVY adjustments to the token grind and we aim to eventually release 10-15 man content as we know alot of people really love this instead of 5 mans for eternity when even Guild Wars 1 had 8.”

“We have spent the last few years creating a great journey and PvP system, now that it is done, we wish to make an end-game PvE experiance that rivals the best such as world of warcraft”

That would please ALOT of people.

I disagree that PvE is vital to an MMO being successful. I assume this is because we have differing opinions on what is considered successful. For an MMO to be successful, it does not need to be the largest MMO in history. It doesn’t need to have the most active subscriptions. All it really needs to do is have a dedicated playerbase that enjoys the game.

You… are… embracing mediocrity, it is making me sick tbh. evem with this game’s pvp content WoW still has more of it in each expansion.

Do you see the point? if WoW can do all elements why shouldn’t this game? what benefit do arenanet or WE have by discluding the most popular mechanic of MMOs?

Honestly, yes you have an opinion, but…. recognize where a company is short falling and why people are frustrated GRINDING TOKENS IN CRAP DUNGEONS SUCKS.

Serp.3264:

Azzras.8041:

So you’re saying the only endgame for cap level players is PvP when a majority of the game is PvE?

That isn’t what I said at all. You are thinking about “endgame” wrong. For a cap level player, you can work on your crafting skills, you can explore the maps (hearts, points of interest, vistas, etc), you can do all of the dungeons, you can work on achievements, etc. If you have completed all of that, great, try another class out! You don’t need to be level 80 to complete a large majority of the content in this game. That is the beauty of it.

The whole concept of endgame being some big task that you repeat over and over again for gear is something that GW2 has been trying to get away from. You should be doing things in a progression.

No it hasn,t theyve said they want the whole game to be like end-game, only ironically it isn’t because the end-game is non-existant for PvE players (notice how i say PvE players, not crafters or achievement gatherers)

The one major element is the dungeon crawl, the good, indepthful mechanics of later bosses, the bigger community guild raids ect.

All not present. and are typically the only things that stick for a long time.

You honestly trying to tell use that doing little minor asthetic things is worth it compared to playing awesome dungeons that offer alot of fun, challenge AND REWARD in all shapes and sizes isn’t part of the “An MMO to appeal to everyone” philosophy?

Arenanet didn’t have time to do it, but they will, they MUST. it is stupid to create such a good game and leave this out. there is no rational reason not to, it is MUCH better than what is currently in place.

pmiles.3489:

WoW players are used to paying a subscription… they figure if they are paying for it, it must be entertaining.

As for those who have the crystal ball into Arena.net’s head… I’m glad you already know what is in store for us in the coming months. I’m sure Arena.net would love to hear you post about your predictions as to just what they plan to release and when. Just to make it clear, that you know what your stating is true and not something you made up just to justify your position.

If you launch WoW right this very second… what is going on there that hasn’t been going on for the last 6 months? Sans the new talent trees… you know the umpteeth reworking of the talent trees to date? Are the preponderance of players all standing around in Orgrimmar or Stormwind? Will everyone be level 90 by October 1st?

I don’t have to play that game to know what’s going on in it. In fact, you don’t either… it’s pretty obvious. And yet, they still play that game… as mind boggling as it is.

Don’t judge GW2 harshly because your preferred game failed you and you are looking for a justification to continue playing it. If GW2 is not for you, it’s not for you. We don’t need to know why you’re going back to WoW or any other game…

Beyond your mindless defence (when there is millions of you on forums like this instead of playing the game, responding to these topics because they strike a nerve with you and you too yourself know you will quit eventually for similar reasons but the rose tinted goggles are still here protecting you for now.

Did you ever stop to think, that the suggestions made by this people would make this MMO pretty much near PERFECT in this genre?

How can anyone deny that the current end-game is highly flawwed? this game does everything else so well if it went the whole hog and made a fantastic dungeon-crawl for the PvE crowd whos to say how far this game can go?

I Don’t have a crystal ball, im spelling out the obvious, its called heinsight based on watching other mmos fail so badly.

PvE is VITAL to an MMO’s success even this one.

If Arena-net have plans, instead of making stupid articles telling us what “MINOR” content we can do once we hit 80 that we mostly have already done, why don’t they come out and say:

“Hey, we hear you PvE lovers, our PvE Team is slaving hard away to rebalance loot tables, make more engaging encounters, make HEAVY adjustments to the token grind and we aim to eventually release 10-15 man content as we know alot of people really love this instead of 5 mans for eternity when even Guild Wars 1 had 8.”

“We have spent the last few years creating a great journey and PvP system, now that it is done, we wish to make an end-game PvE experiance that rivals the best such as world of warcraft”

That would please ALOT of people.

Serp.3264:

I never understood the concept of a PvE encounter being considered “difficult or challenging.” It is a static encounter. It is a mob that has AI that is programmed to do a scripted routine. It usually only takes a small amount of time into a fight to determine what you need to do, and then you just repeat that process every time you fight it. Is doing that over and over again really a challenge for some of you?

Also, I noticed some of you completely disregard what Amadeuz.4617 was saying. The concept of “there is no way to progress you character at level 80” is the wrong way to view this game. Do you become increasingly more powerful? No, that is not the purpose of the game. You keep progressing your characters story by completing other zones, playing WvWvW to increase your kill count/get achievements, or play sPvP and increase your rank there.

The paradigm of getting better gear by repeatedly doing the same thing over and over and over again, thus making your character more powerful, is a broken mechanic. Character progression in this game is done through the story/world experience, not through the gear. Your character does not become increasingly powerful the more you play, but you continually get a new play experience.

Also, for those of you who are complaining about challenging content, I would suggest giving WvWvW or sPvP a try. In those zones you fight people. I know the fights are non-scripted which may essentially make it impossible for some of you, but that is how you become better. Learn to handle unexpected situations.

Yet another apologist excuse.

I’m 99% map done (only skill bugs which still exist even after todays patch, and 3 rea;m v realm points left)

I can PvP in World of Warcraft
I can world PvP in World of Warcraft (note, I don’t currently play, but I am making a point.)
I can explore in world of warcraft (and a much larger world due to time.)
I can experiance a story in World of Warcraft, just because there isnt a cutscene mechanic doesn’t change the fact.

And yet, with all that, I can still have a rich fuffiling well thought out dungeon-crawling experiance.

In Guild Wars 2 I cannot, because it is so poorly thought out.

jayderyu.3751:

Maybe the OP has a point. Maybe the OP should help other game developers who might listen. Maybe Capcom will listen to the OP and adjust the token rate for beating Seth in Street Fighter 4. Come on. NO ONE and I mean NO ONE players Street Fighter 4 for the fun of playing SF4. It’s clearly for the XP, gear rewards you get for winning. So yeah. SF4 better gear rewards? huh. Op’s got a point. Capcom’s SF4 just does a better job.

Comparing a 1 on 1 fighter to an online-RPG and trying to be sarcastic and funny….. complete fail.

Good job people like you are and the other apoligists are not in charge of mmo development…. nobody would play the genre to play the same dungeons over and over again “purely because its the most fun im pretending to have in my life with no reward”

Denial.

ravinhood.3981:

The dungeon grind for what you get from them is EXCELLENT and PERFECT in the amount of time it takes to get completely decked out. I’ve said it before and I’ll keep saying it some things in these games should take MONTHS and even YEARS to obtain just like in EVERQUEST.

Says that yet people have these sets by playing it challenge less for hours on end.

but as the decline of people outside dungeons shows, there is nothing good or worthwhile about doing it.

ravinhood.3981:

Yeah WOW is dead now and the new improved MMO’s are appearing. WOW is for the KIDS now and KIDDIElike minds. It’ll never be the same again.

And yet it will still have the most rich and depthful end-game which is what the majority of MMO gamers want.

I don’t even play it, but I am not so gullable as people like you to believe the flash of games like this will leave a mark long term without a satisfying end-game which is currently non-existant.

Fiennes.9568:

Birdy.4816:

2) make one universal dungeon token, so we can go around exploring different dungeons, aim for “dungeon master” AND be rewarded with a gear set WE LIKE THE LOOK OF MOST.

Except that, with this in place, people will simply farm the easiest dungeon out of the lot and the rest will gather cobwebs as not a foot is set in them.

Because the loot in all the dungeons is so bad at the moment, which is another aspect that needs fixing.

This problem didn’t exist in world of warcraft because the dungeons actually gave things worthwhile alongside a universal token.

zogrim.6925:

Oh my god.

If you don’t like “end-game” then stop playing. As I said, they wanted to appeal for those like doing repetitious hard tasks.

No one said, that GW2 will have 0 grind. Grind will make items more valued, thus giving the one who does the grinding a certain level of achievement. And here it is the ability to wear something.

The game is not revolving around endgame, there is no such a thing. There is no subscription fee, you CAN leave and COME BACK whenever you want. There is no need to give rewards for those who stay. Stay if you like, leave if you feel bored, come back if you feel like playing again.

To the guy before you – fine I don’t care if you don’t like rewards, ALOT of people do, I thougght “this was the mmo for everyone that likes and hates mmos” funny, to live up to that you have to actually appeal to more people, not just grind aholics.

Your all posting excuses. when arenanet has even stated that their goal NOW onwards IS the end-game. I am suggesting to steer it in the right direction, what we don’t need is a bunch of apologist dismissing this kind of comment because they love the game so much up the rear that they will make an excuse for content that mayaswell be there.

They have a business model in place that encourages people to stay A LONG TIME (Gem store) like any other free2play MMO (only with this they have the added bonus of ridiculous box price.) so stop making these fanboy excuses. They know it,we know it, the more people they keep playing, the more profit, THIS IS NOT GUILD WARS 1.

Even advertised to appeal to people who like MMOs. Guess what the most popular and liked aspect is of modern MMOs? OH IS IT THE END-GAME? Lets ignore that large majority because some people like the journey more.

Or here is a better idea for both their financial success and consumer happiness, FOCUS ON BOTH? OMG SHOCKING CONCEPT I KNOW!

Yes, the journey and the little additions are great, and yes its probably not feasable for them to have developed all this AND focused on end-game. I am merely pointing out the current big flaws in that section which they didn’t have time to do and will no focus on.

But please, don’t defend mediocrity. fact of the matter here is, Guild Wars 2 has accelled in many areas that other mmos even WoW have failed in. BUT there is one aspect that it falls far behind in. its simple logic really.

If they now focus on the end-game, even making it nearly a clone of WoW’s (but obviously with this games combat ect) then it literally will be the MMO for everyone.

Currently that is nowhere near the case and as soon as your 80 its “… oh….”

Only fools would believe that its not beneficial to them or us not to ensure these things get done, im sure they know it themselves.

Fleshgrinder.6724:

Birdy.4816:

Fleshgrinder.6724:

If you play for item rewards, every game you ever play will be a grind forever.

Instead, try playing in a fashion that maintains as much dopamine in your brain as possible.

Then no game will ever feel like a grind.

.. Gaming is meant to be rewarding, and its factual that while challenge is it’s own reward, other intensives are alot more stimulating to have. hence why most of the player base wants these tokens.

Your philosophy is flawed because of this, you can’t change the way the human brain works, if I am going to fight my way through the same dungeon, and if its so challenging that it takes a few hours I SHOULD be able to get a piece of gear at least every 3-4 runs TOPS. not 60-hour grinds long after the challenge is gone just to get ONE piece of gear.

I can’t believe what I am reading….. the level of defence of a poorly designed end-game system is just too laughable. considering it goes against the philosophy of the entire game thus far.

As I said, if you require reward to have fun, you’re screwed. Every game you ever play will be a grind.

I play for dopamine. If that flow ever stops, I stop playing.

If you’re still playing after the dopamine drip stops, there’s something wrong.

So having a Gordian looks bland and basic unless I grind a supposed "Challenge (which it isnt) for 200+ hours is fun?

I mean if there was legendary gear I would understand, but the current end-game reward system really REALLY needs work.

You all complain about other mmos, their grinds and how Guild Wars 2 would make all aspects fun, I am pointing out where they have failed and suddenly its ok.

Have you seen the ammount of complaints in game and on this very forum? It is a crap end-game. how can you not see that? why would you defend it?

Its so sad, most here would willingly bash WoW for “instant gratification” (Despite having multiple more layers of difficulty and reward for everyone, which ironically this does not have.) and yet you will happily grind mindlessly for 200+ hours and claim thats good for anyone.

So bad.

zogrim.6925:

Dungeon gear is not meant for everyone. – ANet even stated in one of their promotional videos, that there will be elite exclusive dungeon crawler reward gear, that only those who truly mastered one given dungeon can have. They simply followed this until the release. And mastering a dungeon is different than “having fun”.

So tell me why the hordes of full Arah Exotic players I see around me at the moment who have simply killed the first 2 bosses over and over (or now first boss) have somehow “mastered a difficult dungeon” have achieved anything other than their time stolen by repeating mindless easy content?

On paper, and in your heads you think its working , but it isn’t.

Blaeys.3102:

Ideally, there should be continual diminishing returns on the dungeon awards you can earn from a single boss in a day (eg, 4 for first kill, 2 for second, 1 for third, 0 for any after that). It would encourage people to tackle the entire dungeon versus grinding and make it easier for players playing for fun to find groups.

No, that would make the grind even worse. This isn’t world of warcraft raiding, we shouldn’t have to wait for a “timer” to have fun.

The easiest fix is to

1) Lower the ammount of tokens required, it really is too much at the moment, even 50% less seems a legit ammount of time.

2) make one universal dungeon token, so we can go around exploring different dungeons, aim for “dungeon master” AND be rewarded with a gear set WE LIKE THE LOOK OF MOST.

Simply changes that fit the philosophy of this game all in one.

Fleshgrinder.6724:

If you play for item rewards, every game you ever play will be a grind forever.

Instead, try playing in a fashion that maintains as much dopamine in your brain as possible.

Then no game will ever feel like a grind.

.. Gaming is meant to be rewarding, and its factual that while challenge is it’s own reward, other intensives are alot more stimulating to have. hence why most of the player base wants these tokens.

Your philosophy is flawed because of this, you can’t change the way the human brain works, if I am going to fight my way through the same dungeon, and if its so challenging that it takes a few hours I SHOULD be able to get a piece of gear at least every 3-4 runs TOPS. not 60-hour grinds long after the challenge is gone just to get ONE piece of gear.

I can’t believe what I am reading….. the level of defence of a poorly designed end-game system is just too laughable. considering it goes against the philosophy of the entire game thus far.

Salt.4621:

Yes sadly if there is a fast way to play an MMO these days, the kids will find it, if they can’t they will cry loudly and stamp their feet about it. If it were me there would be an xp loss at death and would take literally 6 months to get to level 80. I’m tired of seeing so much rushing and the need for instant gratification from children in every single MMO released, and even more tired reading about it over and over in forums. Blizzard set a precedence of caving in to a whiny playerbase and dumbing down their game to suit the current generation of players. Now the players expect it everywhere.

I’m sorry to hear that you value a game so highly that you like being painfully whipped, bound and gagged to the point where you see that as fun, but the rest of the world doesn’t see it that way and we are certainly not kids, we are adults that know this masochist game design has no place in modern standard, especially considering this game is far from advertised as such and I question why you are here in the first place.

1) I have not complained about difficulty.
2) Blizzard’s Heroics and End-Game still requires more effort and tactics than this, sorry if you don’t like to hear that, and even its challenge mode is better done than the dungeon scaling in this. (Mists of Pandaria)

I am complaining about the lack of any kind of reward, that is not being an instant-gratification kid. IF you feel cool for spending all day grinding the first boss of these instances is for one piece of gear than good for you, I however live in reality.

You state arenanet, that you want all content to be fun and encouraged to explore all kinds of different areas, and not having to repeat the same content over and over with very little bursts of reward or fun, as quoted today with your latest article.

And yet.

Here we are, farming the first boss of Arah because 90% of parties are only going there for the tokens.

4 tokens at an average rate of 10 minutes. (You nerfed the quick second boss, rightfully so I guess.)

Oh wait, I need 330 Tokens for Chest, 1 piece of “fun reward”.

Its the most illogical grinding mechanic in dungeons to date, what a boring concept, NOTHING good drops from the later bosses either so it makes going to them pointless, the token amount doesn’t increase, and overall it is just too slow to complete the dungeon.

To make it worse? Instead of being able to go and complete all the dungeon exploration modes, if I want ANY armour let alone the one I really like (Arah Exotic) you FORCE me to go to that instance because you have seperate tokens for everything instance, a completely and utterly HORRIBLE idea.

You really had no plan for end game did you?

The rest of the game is great, but I am now sat here thinking “You should of just looked at World of Warcraft’s end-game and copied that BUT with your personal innovations mixed in”.

Because lets face it, they do it best. and you currently have done one of the worst grinds in many years.

Surely I am not the only one that feels this way? This token grind is horrendous and the whole way the end-game is setup discourages exploration, challenge and is overall just lame.

Azthioth.9682:

Echo.7634:

Remove the “holy trinity” and what do you get?
ABSOLUTE AWESOME.

For reference there ARE tanking abilities.
There ARE healing abilities.
There ARE crowd control abilities.

Just because you don’t use them does not mean that they don’t exist.

You DO know that you can dodge attacks and take 0 damage right?
You DO know that you can block attack and take 0 damage right?
You DO know that you can kite mobs and get hit less often right?
You DO know that pretty much every class has ranged weapons available to it right?

From your post it sounds like you are a “dps” and trying to run in and face tank everything on your own. You are expecting others to “tank” for you and “heal” you. Take a few minutes to read what your class can do. Pretty much every class has a “tanky” and “support/healing” option available to it.

Rather than blaming the game for not working how you want it to, why don’t you take the time to learn to play the game?

I am going to assume you are joking, twelve, or completely misguided.

As you said, all these abilities are there. but none of them are good enough to be used efficiently at all. Why do I care i have tanking abilities if there is no tank and have to use them at random? Why have healing abilities when they are not nearly enough? Why even bother with healing when one of the rangers gets on you and cc’s you for 5 sec while draining your health? Just let people chain rez.

The point is that this is just a mess inside the dungeon. No order at all. Trinity gave us order and a logical challenge. This is not a challenge. It is a shooting barrel with fish that are really hard to kill.

You are being illogical. Trinity didn’t bring challenge…. it brought about a never changing pattern that made the game easy. As soon as you saw one boss video on World of Warcraft and mimmicked it the fight was one providing no one was failing miserable.

You think its right that a boss should always target the plate wearing tank that is barely hurting it?

And as a healer myself I LOOOOVED looking at spreadsheet bars instead of the actual fight 90% of the time… oh wait, no I didn’t

That “order” you claim, isn’t challenge, it trivilizes everything, no randomness, nothing for you to personall do other than dodge the occasional fire as a dps.

You are just another person that can’t adapt outside of that age old tradition.

I can’t fathom how you think knowing exactly how a fight is going to play out every time is fun.