Guild Wars 2

DusK.3849:

Colin Johanson

Fun impacts loot collection. The rarest items in the game are not more powerful than other items, so you don’t need them to be the best. The rarest items have unique looks to help your character feel that sense of accomplishment, but it’s not required to play the game. We don’t need to make mandatory gear treadmills, we make all of it optional, so those who find it fun to chase this prestigious gear can do so, but those who don’t are just as powerful and get to have fun too.

That was posted on June 19th, just over two months before the game’s release. If you bought this game thinking that post-80 was going to be an endless cycle of getting better items, you bought the wrong game.

And yet that is exactly what it is, only in the least fun form possible.

ZannX.4058:

Debsylvania.7396:

Birdy.4816:

Moonthrower.1406:

You blew through 300 hours of content in 3 weeks? And you paid how much for it?

its not 300 hours though, its more like 100 doing it effeciently.

and to the previous poster…. that list is rubbish.

Your opinion. IMO, it’s not rubbish at all. And what the heck does “doing it efficently” mean other than “blow through”?

No, it really is rubbish. It double, triple, or quadruple lists the same thing multiple times.

Not to mention its things you do in every mmo as a side addition, not a focus, it really is minor content.

Debsylvania.7396:

Birdy.4816:

Moonthrower.1406:

You blew through 300 hours of content in 3 weeks? And you paid how much for it?

its not 300 hours though, its more like 100 doing it effeciently.

and to the previous poster…. that list is rubbish.

Your opinion. IMO, it’s not rubbish at all. And what the heck does “doing it efficently” mean other than “blow through”?

If you don’t know what efficiency means (as in just getting on with it) then Im not going to help you. it isnt the same as rushing.

Moonthrower.1406:

You blew through 300 hours of content in 3 weeks? And you paid how much for it?

its not 300 hours though, its more like 100 doing it effeciently.

and to the previous poster…. that list is rubbish.

Well what was you expecting a full fledged sandbox? you take some of it far too literally, by changing the world they meant dynamic events, if you expected more then your outta your mind.

But I do agree, this game has less fun LONGER grinds than games like World of Warcraft even… funnily enoug hthe game the fanboys attack for being a “treadmill” ….

“Tokens and legendaries are optional you dont have to get them” YES well done fanboys, everything in an MMO is optional congratulations, point is we want reasons to keep playing , fun rewarding reasons, be they aesthetic.

But its not just about reward, its fun achieving the reward.

I want a nice Orrian set, do I go through well structed dungeon content to do it?

No I have to go with 2-boss farming groups on mindless boring boss enoucnters with no thought put into them untill I have 1500 tokens.

If that is “better” than WoW’s Grind Treadmill then I lose faith in humanity… at least WoWs “gear treadmill” has spontanious loot excitement, well structured boss fights and dungeons, well defined roles ect ect.

This game is mindless in its current state, people say its a challenge but it isnt….

SamTheGuardian.2938:

Of the 35 or so professional reviews to be compiled by metacritic, XGN, Polygon and Videogamer have been the only ones to score the game in the 80’s and if you dig into these reviews it seems there are a few trends. 1.) These were all reviews that came in a bit late. The reviewers took their time to make an assessment. 2.) The reviewers all seemed to play the game the same way, their approach was to clear zones, ding level 80 then wonder where the endgame content is. It’s clear their focus from time of creation to time of review was to ding max level as quickly as possible and then discover what’s left. It’s as if these reviews are strategically focused around the thinking that an MMO’s endgame is what should dictate 15-20% of it’s overall score.

I honestly don’t know how to feel about that way of thinking. At some level it can be rationalized, the reviewer is trying to figure what the longitivtiy of the game and feels a good chunk of it’s overall score should be determined by their assessment of what’s available there. On the other hand they are reviewing a game that has no subscription fee that is less than three weeks old and it seems all they want to do is tear it apart because they see it as having no content after the game ends (selectively ignoring WvW and sPvP are free forever -or- the fact that for the cost of a single player experience like Skyrim, ArenaNet is giving you a free multiplayer experience).

They also ignore the uniqueness of personal story and how rolling a new character in GW2 can be a valid replacement for endgame because of it’s unique new experiences.

It’s sad that it seems some come into the review process with a little square box they envision MMOs should fit into and their entire assessment seems around how the game does not fit into that box. It’s frustrating people can’t objectively look at all this game gives for free. Pro reviews make me so angry sometimes.

Why is branching story unique? SWTOR did it before this and in more detail.

Still, little missions changes and dialogue changes does not warrant loads of play throughs or be classed as end-game.

Debsylvania.7396:

Birdy.4816:

DusK.3849:

Birdy.4816:

Its you people that say “its fine, let them leave in droves” that are going to long term harm this game.

You know what would be even worse for it? If ArenaNet did a complete 180 on everything they’ve been saying for the past three years just to cater to a no-lifer minority that still thinks MMO = gear treadmills.

Everything on this game is a treadmill. like any other mmos, all they did was make the leveling process abit more fun (which it was).

So why can’t they have an end-game with the same philosphy? why would making a fun end-game be against this philosophy?

BEcause casuals like yourself would complain you couldn’t get epic gear because you don’t like raiding?

Well why doenst “if you dont like it dont do it” apply to people like you then? hypocritical waste of time.

You mean why can’t they change their vision and design for the game to be exactly like WoW and Rift and Aion, etc., etc., ad nauseum? Why should they? Why shouldn’t they be allowed… and heaven forbid, ENCOURAGED, to build the game that THEY designed?

Why, after only THREE WEEKS, should they bow to demands to change their entire concept and throw together a treadmill for those who can’t imagine there’s another way to do things.

Here’s an idea… let them build the game they want to build. Give them some actual time to realize their design. In the meantime, if you want to raid, run on over to WoW. I hear the Pandas are opening their doors in about a week.

Why is having a good strucuted dungeon end-game have to be a wow clone?

Is guild wars a Rift/Warhammer clone because it focusses around un-structured questing? but also gave some? OMG CLONE.

It has battlegrounds OMG WOW/DOAC CLONE

Ect ect, I go on.

Nothing changes if they make a good end-game, nothing about the game you currently like changes whatsoever, it just adds another layer of awesome.

Tradewind.6913:

Birdy.4816:

DusK.3849:

Birdy.4816:

Its you people that say “its fine, let them leave in droves” that are going to long term harm this game.

You know what would be even worse for it? If ArenaNet did a complete 180 on everything they’ve been saying for the past three years just to cater to a no-lifer minority that still thinks MMO = gear treadmills.

Everything on this game is a treadmill. like any other mmos, all they did was make the leveling process abit more fun (which it was).

So why can’t they have an end-game with the same philosphy? why would making a fun end-game be against this philosophy?

BEcause casuals like yourself would complain you couldn’t get epic gear because you don’t like raiding?

Well why doenst “if you dont like it dont do it” apply to people like you then? hypocritical waste of time.

Insulting people and calling them “casuals” doesn’t boost your viewpoint any. Especially given there is no frame of reference for what you deem to be a “casual” and how you’re above them for whatever reason. Just makes you look like a pedantic child.

Sorry, just tired of being told to “slow down, if your 80 already its a problem with your like” which 99% of you say.

But you know what I mean, people get jealous of raiders and what they have gained and they whine.

You are all the same, people like the content, people like FUN treadmills evolving teams and socializing, not 1-2 boss grinds and tokens.

Yet because alot of you think thats worthless and shouldnt exist, that it is the right thing to do despite being the most popular aspect of MMOs to date.

Because you dont want to do it. instead of being self-cetnered why not encourage them to do it? its just satisfying more users afterall.

callung dungeon crawls treadmills and not this awful end-game and hell alot of the content a “treadmill” is just plain out hypocritical.

ZannX.4058:

Saga.1652:

- Cross-server Dungeon Finder.
- Lessen the price of gear.
- Make every stat combination available through every means.
- Converge dungeon badges to one universal badge.
- Increment the effect bolster has on WvW.

This bullet list needs to be highlighted in the post somehow. Every point is exactly what I’ve been saying since I hit 80.

Silly logical person. your not meant to have fun at level 80 in this game. apparently.

DusK.3849:

Birdy.4816:

Its you people that say “its fine, let them leave in droves” that are going to long term harm this game.

You know what would be even worse for it? If ArenaNet did a complete 180 on everything they’ve been saying for the past three years just to cater to a no-lifer minority that still thinks MMO = gear treadmills.

Everything on this game is a treadmill. like any other mmos, all they did was make the leveling process abit more fun (which it was).

So why can’t they have an end-game with the same philosphy? why would making a fun end-game be against this philosophy?

BEcause casuals like yourself would complain you couldn’t get epic gear because you don’t like raiding?

Well why doenst “if you dont like it dont do it” apply to people like you then? hypocritical waste of time.

Hawken.7932:

Birdy.4816:

Hilarious reading all the defender responses in this thread.

You all claim “Guild Wars has no grind, its all about the fun, you don’t need to grind anything”

Yet when he suggests lowering costs so that the grind isnt there and you get rewarded in a fun way – you all attack him and say “QQ you want good gear in a week, there ar eno raids why would you want gear?”

why do anything in this game then? your all so hypocritical its insane, I’ve had such a good laugh.

If you find it hilarious, then I’ll add another bit of comedy for your amusement.

I believe that the difference in Guild Wars 2 is that you indeed are not required to do any sort of grind, but you are provided a lot of long term goals for your character to tweak their looks. Why are you not required like in other MMOs? It’s a very simple answer, and that is because there is no gated content.

You could take WoW or Rift as an example, as they are both built on structure of tiered raiding at endgame, which “requires” a grind in order to participate in the next tier of content.

I believe a lot of people mistook what Arenanet said when they talked about “removing the grind”… in my opinion, they were removing the gating and forced grinds, and then also allowing all content in the game to be opened up for max level players so that those players could then sample from the great buffet. One day do dungeons, another day to WvWvW, another day return to other areas to work DEs for karma, another day work on crafting. This is a pretty admirable design, in my mind.

Could you seriously look me in the eye though and say the long term goals in Guild Wars 2 are fun compared to other MMO offerings? could you REALLY?

And be brutally honest, this token grind is herroundous, coupled with the dungeons being mediocre. LEgendary farming is one of the most “no lifer” grinds in existant and is alot worse than say WoW’s which requires a team of dedicated players to complete tough challenges…. not grind 1000-2000 ore ect ect.

The problem isn’t the long term goals for any of us, they should always exist, the problem is Guild Wars 2 “longterm endgame goals” are so flat and lame.

“Why are people rushing, ive spent 200 hours getting to level 50 and im having a blast and only done 32% of map” … sorry that we are efficient adults I guess? and we dont stand around jumping in town being social in map chat doing nothing.

Sorry that we want challenge that isnt just zerging rubbish and rewarded nothing for doing so.

Hilarious reading all the defender responses in this thread.

You all claim “Guild Wars has no grind, its all about the fun, you don’t need to grind anything”

Yet when he suggests lowering costs so that the grind isnt there and you get rewarded in a fun way – you all attack him and say “QQ you want good gear in a week, there ar eno raids why would you want gear?”

why do anything in this game then? your all so hypocritical its insane, I’ve had such a good laugh.

Tradewind.6913:

Birdy.4816:

Tradewind.6913:

Raf.1078:

Its an unfortunate occurrence in all forums in all games where the naysayers dominate the conversation, while those people that like the game rarely post or even bother with forums.

Which gives the illusion that “everyone” is horribly dissatisfied with the game. When its really a pretty small percentile.

It’s definitely the outspoken minority vs the silent majority, which makes sense. People are going to be less inclined to voice opinions if they’re positive as opposed to soap-boxing inane issues.

This “Vocal Minority” ends up being the majority like most failed MMOs, this is the same defence rubbish you get it every one of these forums.

Reality here is this game is missing a gigantic element of what makes an MMO so good in the more popular ways of the genre.

The reality is also that there is no reason for it really not to exist in this game either.

So we are fighting for it.

Its you people that say “its fine, let them leave in droves” that are going to long term harm this game.

No the reality is that it is a miniscule minority of people. Right now on this forum there is 35 pages at 29 threads per page. Average of about 23 replies per thread. So 23345 posts on this forum alone, lets say it’s 24000. Suggestions is higher ofc, 63 pages but the average seems to be lower, about 17 per thread average, so about 31059, lets call it 32000. So about 56000 between these two forums where there’s likely a higher concentration of complaints and naysayers. How many copies did GW2 sell? 2 Million+?

So even then these two forums, assuming every post is unique (which they aren’t, not even close) could only possibly account for 2.8% of the game’s current players. How many of that 56000 do you imagine are people who are displeased with the game? Half? I’d wager it to be a lot less than half. Probably closer to 1/3 of that and I truly believe that to be a generous estimate. Even more so when you consider these aren’t all people who are dissatisfied enough to be quitting, but maybe just want to see some changes but are otherwise happy and keep playing.

So for that “vocal minority” to become any sort of majority is a long way off…

What does the forum post count matter? the problem exists and is being talked about, that alone is where the slippery slope starts unless the developers act in accordance.

SpectacularYak.6518:

Birdy.4816:

They hit 80 and found the end-game content to be crap.

let me guess, wrong? then why don’t you tell me instead of making mindless spam.

Because one of those games has/had a $15 a month price tag to continue playing, and all subscription fee games post WoW have experienced a huge subscriber drop off after one month regardless of how good the game was?

Excuse. Everyone who buys those games knows up front that there is a price to pay Monthly. and yet they buy it anyway.

SWTOR was bad, its gameplay was worse than WoW’s, all it had was a good story mode and leveling (FAMILIAR PATTERN?) but the end-game was dreadful. and that is why it went down hill so much.

Avatar.1923:

^

the cap is hit so fast?
you mean about 80h total at a regular pace ?

game as been out for 3 weeks.
so thats about 25+hours per week.

well, yeah.
the problem isnt the game, its you maybe?
what game did you play for like over 500h ??? and why?

We will be able to play Mists of Pandaria for 500hours plus easily. why? because it has a structured progression system and fun game mechanics for PvE.

DusK.3849:

Birdy

Yea I asked you to provide a source for that claim last time, where is it? How do you know the active playerbase of both?

You missed that post? Or do you want to just pretend it never existed? It’s okay, I’ll post it as many times as you’d like.

Guild Wars 2: http://beta.xfire.com/games/gw2
World of Warcraft: http://beta.xfire.com/games/wow

Keep in mind, not a lot of gamers use Xfire anymore now that Steam kinda beats it, so those numbers apply only to people the Xfire client can track, but given the sample size of each, there’s really no reason to believe that fewer WoW players use Xfire on the whole compared to GW2 players. So when viewed comparitively, it gives a very accurate projection.

Sorry, bro. GW2’s kicking the crap out of Grind’n’-Raid. We’ll see where it goes after the 25th, but for now, deal with it.

Oh dear god….. this just sums you up to me really.

Xfire….. the program that says League of Legends has 100,000 players online and DoTA 2 only has 8000 , where it has 90k?

Im sorry, you don’t know how to use statistics, you have no real arguement, there is nothing here but raving fanboyism.

If you honestly believe you have a point then I pitty you…. and your age 10 debating ability.

They hit 80 and found the end-game content to be crap.

let me guess, wrong? then why don’t you tell me instead of making mindless spam.

SpectacularYak.6518:

Daniel.2743:

…all this “LET’S PLAY FOR FUN” crap is nonsense…

I agree! Has anything ever been so absurd as the concept of playing games for something as stupid and pointless as FUN?

The problem here is people find Grinds, Rewards, epic bosses (99% of them in this game are mindless) cool long dungeons that you can do with large groups (All other content in this game has large groups, why not clever dungeons) are all fun.

Grinding tokens and materials and be told to “slow down” and “do unrewarding older content that you have already done” fun.

You have no arguement… just mindless defence.

Gray is spot on.

They said “the entire game is end-game” and explained that all end-game concepts would be there throughout the game not just at the end.

That never EVER suggested that there will be no persistant end-game that is enjoyable or grindy.

And that is why you have alot of people here dissapointed, we are all happy to have end-game concepts from level 1.

Just not happy that there is no well thought out level 80 content that ironically is not just a token/material grind with no challenge.

Tradewind.6913:

Raf.1078:

Its an unfortunate occurrence in all forums in all games where the naysayers dominate the conversation, while those people that like the game rarely post or even bother with forums.

Which gives the illusion that “everyone” is horribly dissatisfied with the game. When its really a pretty small percentile.

It’s definitely the outspoken minority vs the silent majority, which makes sense. People are going to be less inclined to voice opinions if they’re positive as opposed to soap-boxing inane issues.

This “Vocal Minority” ends up being the majority like most failed MMOs, this is the same defence rubbish you get it every one of these forums.

Reality here is this game is missing a gigantic element of what makes an MMO so good in the more popular ways of the genre.

The reality is also that there is no reason for it really not to exist in this game either.

So we are fighting for it.

Its you people that say “its fine, let them leave in droves” that are going to long term harm this game.

SpectacularYak.6518:

Am I the only one who doesn’t want a game I literally cannot stop playing?

Birdy.4816:

Exactly,. this didn’t sell or have as many players as SWTOR did and look what happened to SWTOR , FOR HAVING A POOR END GAME BUT DECENT JOURNEY.

There’s a fairly critical distinction between the two games. I’ll give you a minute and see if you can figure out what it is.

Quality? You may have a point, but you can polish anything aswell but if it runs out that quick there is no difference.

Azzras.8041:

DusK.3849:

Birdy.4816:

Most people yet the most popular mmos are all focused around this, clever analysis there -_-;

If those MMO’s are so popular, why is their player count so low compared to this one? I can understand the zombie masses waiting for pandas, we’ll see how it all evens out on the 25th, but as it stands right now, GW2 has over thrice the active player count of WoW.

No offense, but this game just launched. Everyone jumped over to play the newest MMO, and it will happen again when another MMO is launched.
This could be a mediocre MMO (it’s most certainly not) and the same thing would still happen. Look at SWTOR.

Exactly,. this didn’t sell or have as many players as SWTOR did and look what happened to SWTOR , FOR HAVING A POOR END GAME BUT DECENT JOURNEY.

DusK.3849:

Untouch.2541:

DusK.3849:

Birdy.4816:

Problem is you progress through the game so fast it doesn’t feel epic or lengthy.

A trip to 80 takes at least 50 hours. If you don’t think that’s lengthy, it might be time to go outside.

50?
Doing what?

You could craft to 80 in a relatively short amount of time, though it’s extremely expensive. And boring, imo.

My trip to 80 took me over 200 hours. I can’t really describe the trip as anything but lengthy and epic.

Guys like Birdy are still stuck in the “I gotta race to 80 because that’s where the game begins” mentality, and in doing so, they skip most of the game. He bought this game thinking it would be like every cookie-cutter WoW knockoff out there, and is now complaining about it, and trying to turn it into the very thing it was made not to be. It’s a lot like playing CoD games to the point where you actually believe every shooter in the world is like that, then buying UT3, then complaining about how the action is too fast and you can’t prone in a corner for an easy win.

No I got to 80 in 78 hours by “exploring the world” and collecting all the materials and getting to 99% explore ect ect.

You havn’t got a clue what you are talking about.

DusK.3849:

Birdy.4816:

Problem is you progress through the game so fast it doesn’t feel epic or lengthy.

A trip to 80 takes at least 50 hours. If you don’t think that’s lengthy, it might be time to go outside.

in Comparison with other games in the genre yes?

I do pleanty thank you.

DusK.3849:

Birdy.4816:

Most people yet the most popular mmos are all focused around this, clever analysis there -_-;

If those MMO’s are so popular, why is their player count so low compared to this one? I can understand the zombie masses waiting for pandas, we’ll see how it all evens out on the 25th, but as it stands right now, GW2 has over thrice the active player count of WoW.

Yea I asked you to provide a source for that claim last time, where is it? How do you know the active playerbase of both?

and bare in mind, you are comparing a released hype game to an 8 year old game that is days away from new content.

DusK.3849:

Birdy.4816:

Comparing RPGs to completely different genres and trying to make a valid point -_-

Mind blown.

You’re just angry because the point it makes is valid. A game is a game. You’re insisting that limitless progression is some aspect that has to be in an MMO. That’s like claiming going prone and weapon customization has to be in an FPS game before it’s an FPS game.

A game can stand on its gameplay and not need a carrot chase. If a carrot chase is for you, then by all means, go back to the games that provide that, but please stop insisting that it’s somehow needed here for everyone just because it’s necessary for you to enjoy the game. Not everyone’s you.

I think the level of forum posts speak for themselves, most of the people defending are not 80, most who are criticizing are.

and like I have said before, you can keep being in denial all you like, all the successful long term mmos focus on this aspect.

And im willing to bet arenanet will with this game from now and all you defenders will change your tune.

DusK.3849:

Nashiem.8932:

1.An ever changing world, the dynamic events are good, but are always the same if they had changing dynamic events it would make for a better playability experience.

This is coming, in addition to new areas to explore, new dungeons, new everything.

Nashiem.8932:

2.High lvl cap not easy to achieve. The 3rd day I played gw2 I saw lvl 80’s walking around I remember when I started playing wow it took me 2 months to get to lvl 20. (I got so bored I only played for 8 months. played Guild wars for 5 years)

Those people raced to the top and skipped all the content. Those are often the same people you see here complaining about how there’s no “endgame.” For most of us, leveling to 80 took over 100 hours. Nobody in their right mind would call that a “short amount of time”.

Nashiem.8932:

3.Almost endless lvl cap content. when you do get to the top of your class the game should expand to almost unlimited possibities. I like side games like in FFVII. (for instance) there were so many things to do besides playing the game it made it so much fun.

There are lots of additional things to do past 80 in this game. WvW, map completion, and dungeons are the big ones.

The only post-80 thing missing from this MMO is the thing we’ve known wouldn’t be in this MMO, gear treadmills, and for good reason; most people find that horrendously boring and stupid. But apparently, that’s why a lot of people play MMO’s, and that’s fine, but they should go play those MMO’s instead of trying to change this one into something most of GW2’s players don’t want.

Most people yet the most popular mmos are all focused around this, clever analysis there -_-;

Jestunhi.7429:

Birdy.4816:

Gaming has “shifted” no it hasnt, its always been about rewarding players for challenge, only in your head has it ever been otherwise.

All MMORPGs focus around this. all RPGs do aswell, progression and reward.

Seriously, stop defending this game because so many people are dissapointed with the direction it took and rightfully so.

What was my reward for completing Sonic the Hedgehog?

Or Super Mario Bros.?

Or Tetris?

Or Pac-Man?

Yes… things have changed.

Comparing RPGs to completely different genres and trying to make a valid point -_-

Mind blown.

Problem is you progress through the game so fast it doesn’t feel epic or lengthy. hence why most MMOs focus on the end-game now.

This game throws experiance at you so quick the feeling of progression goes down hill.

Yes, I can explore lower dungeons scaled down, but my 80 gear still makes it easier and rewardless.

Its a flawed system in the long run, works while the rose tinted goggles are still on people.

Gaming has “shifted” no it hasnt, its always been about rewarding players for challenge, only in your head has it ever been otherwise.

All MMORPGs focus around this. all RPGs do aswell, progression and reward.

Seriously, stop defending this game because so many people are dissapointed with the direction it took and rightfully so.

Elydian.1763:

Saga.1652:

And on top of that, the ways to get that gear are more of a grind than raiding twice a week ever was.

This is sadly true. I’m still baffled as to why ArenaNet decided against raids. Raids don’t automatically mean a gear treadmill. They’re just highly challenging PvE content with good rewards. That’s it, really. I don’t understand why that’s supposedly bad.

This kind of logic is not allowed on this forum apparently. Even though it is completely true.

Hieronumous.3541:

Birdy.4816:

DusK.3849:

Birdy.4816:

Yes, Don’t listen to the majority of MMO players

But you’re not. You think you are, but considering over twice as many people are on this game right now than WoW…

Lmao, I would like to see your source for claim.

If that’s the game you’re going to play: where’s your source? Verification goes both ways; this isn’t a legal system, where one side has a burden of proof and one doesn’t. You’re making a claim that has to be numerically verified.

Oh for gods sake mine is common sense, every mmo has an end game, most people only remain playing for the end-game, most people like a sense of character progression past leveling zones.

…. its so tiresome putting up with these nonsense excuses.

He made a statistical claim that in no way could even be an accurate guesstimate or logical fact.

Hes lying.

Illushia.3721:

Ahwoo.8029:

Illushia.3721:

Don’t cave in. Don’t give in. You guys made a game, and you guys made a game that you could be passionate about.

But at the same time, don’t forget about us, the little people who bought your game. Because some of us do have pretty good ideas.

Intriguing.

There is, in fact, a difference between caving in to every little nitpicker, and realizing that some players have good ideas. While not listening to the vocal minority is a good thing, you shouldn’t ignore players completely. Some of them have really good suggestions.

Like… sittable chairs. Or health bar percentages. Just to name two.

Are you blind to the reality that many many people are disatisfied with what there is at level 80 and no ammount of “game direction” excuses is going to cut it?

We want this game to succeed as much as you, it NEEDS a good end-game though, and no, not this “end-0game is the journey” marketing… a proper end game for us all to enjoy after that short journey is complete.

DusK.3849:

Birdy.4816:

Yes, Don’t listen to the majority of MMO players

But you’re not. You think you are, but considering over twice as many people are on this game right now than WoW…

Lmao, I would like to see your source for claim.

Nodrog.7458:

Yes, we should all play the game in short intervals to have fun right? I wouldn’t call hitting 80 in 2 weeks “rushing” to the end when you are literally spoon-fed massive amounts of exp for doing anything in the game.

Logic is not allowed here apparently.

The ammount of defensive excuses people come up with is insane.

Even Guild Wars 1 lasted longer than this game with 20 levels, and was very hard and challegning and encouraged STRATEGIC group play….

This is mostly flash with no substance.

Ergo Proxy.6219:

GW2 wasn’t really intended as a “grind for loot” game. So yeah your not the only one and yeah its intentional.

Really? then why do I have to grind 1500 tokens just to look nice?

Why can’t I just complete explorable Arah for the Orrian set?

Please, excuses. this game is more of a grind than grind end games, with less reward.

if People think this is good game design I’m losing faith.

gurugeorge.9857:

Birdy.4816:

Yes, Don’t listen to the majority of MMO players, because we are all completely wrong.

The idea that the majority of MMO players is represented by whiners on forums is absolutely ludicrous.

I’m tired of you people’s reading comprehension, WoW is built around end-game, wow has 10 million subsribers, MMO PLAYERS LIKE AN ENDLESS GAME THAT IS FUN.

DusK.3849:

Kasenai.9418:

That is the worst possible attitude one could have:
“Our product is flawless. If the customers don’t like it then they don’t get it.”

But the customers do like it. Most of the people that don’t like the game walked into it thinking it would be a WoW clone.

No, we thought it would be a presistant ever expanding mmo with innovation and fun to play for years on end.

Turns out the fun ends at level 80 where all I can do is little things that are barely engaging or massive token grinds.

Yes, Don’t listen to the majority of MMO players, because we are all completely wrong.

Leave your game the way it is, market “leveling” as “end-game” even though it is nowhere near as rewarding, challenging and teamwork heavy as a “real” end-game, its a zerg fest that ends after 80 odd hours.

Don’t make a good proper end-game anet, that way you will lost all the whiny “hardcores” that make up the MAJORITY of this genre, that like an endless game that is fun not a token and ore grind.

Then lose your holy defenders 1 by 1 as they just abandon your game because the “end-game” (aka leveling in their heads) as ended and you have missed out on an amazing opportunity.

Listening to the hardcore defenders is the worst thing they can do at the moment.

Though I give credit to arena nets “Apple-like marketing” , they can market anything and get away with it.

“We want the whole game to feel like end-game” … which in turn defeats the definition of “End-Game”. if the whole game is end game, why is there no actual end-game, which suggests that the WHOLE game isnt end game.

Its brilliant marketing to say “We didn’t have time to finish the proper end-game, so we are going to make out we have no plans for one and lose the majority of our audiance just like SWTOR DID”

Vincire.1048:

Birdy.4816:

knightblaster.8027:

Apotheosis.3786:

knightblaster.8027:

Birdy.4816:

Only it makes no sense, no where have they said there won’t be an end-game, they just stated that the content will be good from the start. a persistant MMO still requires the end-game…….

They’ve elaborated in some detail their ideas about what “endgame” means to their design vision — right here: https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/the-endgame-reimagined/

You do realize that post is very new. No one bought the game after reading that post and reached lvl 80 yet. All the news actually going into detail about their shell of an endgame is brand new.

That post is new, but it was clear during the development phase that the endgame wasn’t going to be endless progression, but was going to be like Guild Wars was: easy stat capped gear, PvP, grinds for vanity looks, and the new element of DAoC W3. This was certainly very clear to me. Had the game instead had the typical MMO garbage of endless stat progression and gear castes at the endgame I would have been quitekitten because that isn’t what Arena had told us all along about the endgame.

Im sorry what is garbage about a good structured end-game with dungeons that are actually fun not zerg fests? what is garbage about structured reward systems that are actuall nice not farm 1500 tokens translating in 3XX boss kills in the same singular instance, whats garbage about having fun loot drops?

you people really don’t think these things through. whats garbage is grinding 1000s of mindless materials in a game that tries to stop you grinding/

whats garbage is dungeons that have very little thought into them, just the horrible chaotic diablo III mentallity (insane damage and health on all enemies that barely do anything of interest) and waypoint boss running (lame and skilless)

Whats garbage is a good pvp system not backed up by the neccesary skill ratings and statistisc, its all okay though because we can grind 80 ranks of nothingness.

You people live in denial.

This is all pure opinion which is fine. The things you complain about are exactly what I love about this game. I’ve had quite enough of the gear treadmill and the Gear > Skill PvP model and I am very happy that stuff is largely absent here.

I didnt even mention PvP gear grinding because I 100% agree with you….

But at least making end-game exotic farming FUN with a well designed PvE endgame, not this anti-farming, yet worse farm thatn other games trash that currently plagues it.

knightblaster.8027:

Apotheosis.3786:

knightblaster.8027:

Birdy.4816:

Only it makes no sense, no where have they said there won’t be an end-game, they just stated that the content will be good from the start. a persistant MMO still requires the end-game…….

They’ve elaborated in some detail their ideas about what “endgame” means to their design vision — right here: https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/the-endgame-reimagined/

You do realize that post is very new. No one bought the game after reading that post and reached lvl 80 yet. All the news actually going into detail about their shell of an endgame is brand new.

That post is new, but it was clear during the development phase that the endgame wasn’t going to be endless progression, but was going to be like Guild Wars was: easy stat capped gear, PvP, grinds for vanity looks, and the new element of DAoC W3. This was certainly very clear to me. Had the game instead had the typical MMO garbage of endless stat progression and gear castes at the endgame I would have been quitekitten because that isn’t what Arena had told us all along about the endgame.

Im sorry what is garbage about a good structured end-game with dungeons that are actually fun not zerg fests? what is garbage about structured reward systems that are actuall nice not farm 1500 tokens translating in 3XX boss kills in the same singular instance, whats garbage about having fun loot drops?

you people really don’t think these things through. whats garbage is grinding 1000s of mindless materials in a game that tries to stop you grinding/

whats garbage is dungeons that have very little thought into them, just the horrible chaotic diablo III mentallity (insane damage and health on all enemies that barely do anything of interest) and waypoint boss running (lame and skilless)

Whats garbage is a good pvp system not backed up by the neccesary skill ratings and statistisc, its all okay though because we can grind 80 ranks of nothingness.

You people live in denial.

pmiles.3489:

Rift… was too much like WoW. Stopped playing it.
SWTOR… was too much like WoW. Stopped playing it.
TERA and TSW… didn’t bother, I could already tell it was going to be too much like WoW. Saved my money.

GW2… totally unlike WoW. Finally, a game developer that gets it. Too bad it didn’t hit the scene 5 years ago… I would have had 5 years of GW2 under my belt by now.

Rift is still going strong, the only real wow clone to work, because they pump out more content than WoW does.

Guild Wars 2 is different and screams quality in engine and design. BUT IT LACKS ANY LASTING CONTENT.

So no, they havn’t proved anything yet.

crewthief.8649:

That’ll be great, because GW2 is exactly what I expected and exactly what Anet said it would be. I mean, who researches a product before purchasing it??? But in seriousness…I hear Kung Fu Panda is invading a certain MMO around the 25th of this month, maybe they’ll flock there?

I’l say it again, they never stated that end-game wouldn’t exist. They have stated that they want the ENTIRE game to be like end-game. you still need an end-game in a persistant MMO, they are aware of this. only you gullible defenders who think we are all wow fanboys will realize this later than us.

Do you think its a coincidence that many are complaining? the people who are ahead of you on the game, the people that experienced the good points you did.

well, see you in the next mmo, or back in panda land im sure… just like every other mmo that you all like to defend before your stubborness wares off and you leave the denial stage.

MrsAngelD.6971:

DusK.3849:

How are you people reading up on Guild Wars 2 before buying it and suddenly being shocked when you find out that the game is exactly like ANet said it was be? If you were keeping on on the game’s development, if you were reading what ANet was saying for the past 3 years, you should have known that what you’re looking for is completely absent from GW2. “The Endgame Reimaged” was just an amalgam of information that ArenaNet has been giving us about the game’s content since it was announced.

So why didn’t you know this stuff? Why did you buy this game thinking that the “endgame” was going to be like every other MMO out there? Why didn’t know know that the combat gets rid of the trinity? How do you not know that traits and a chosen build aren’t the only determining factor on how good a player is, that they avoided those “cookie-cutter” layouts you look for in party members in WoW on purpose because a person’s build doesn’t determine how good they are at the game? And for that matter, how did you not know that this game is more skill-based than gear-based or spec-based?

I’m pretty sure you lied about “scouring the web for a glimpse of this game’s content for the last 2 years”, because if you did, you wouldn’t be surpirsed upon learning that this game is exactly what ANet said it would be.

This is pretty much what I was gonna say

Only it makes no sense, no where have they said there won’t be an end-game, they just stated that the content will be good from the start. a persistant MMO still requires the end-game…….

JazzyJay.1367:

Avatar.1923:

its not even been out for 1 month.

Hooray! Some people are so impatient.

Can you be anymore of a fanboy?

Patience for what? they have not communicated with anyone about the subject.

All they have done is made a list of little things most enthusiasts have already done (Explore, craft ect ect) all done. now what? PvP with only a rank grind and no real long lasting or good rating mechanics?

Realm v Realm’s effects on the world are so minor.

PvE dungeon Crawling is non existant due to the horrible grind, lack of cleverly designed boss mechanics…. and only 1-2 80 dungeons… 1500 token grind is FUN FUN FUN.

I don’t care if you and all the other defenders are “having a blast leveling ,wouldnt change a thing” … what you think we didn’t think the same thing? we loved it too. problem is, it doesn’t last long.

“buh buh make another character” WHY? its an MMO I want my main to acheive great things… but the only things you can achieve at the moment on this is killing 350+ bosses in the same dungeon for 1 set of gear (no weapons ect) or lifelessly grind mats for a slightly flashier no stats legendery weapon.

The more people that hit 80 will demand to know whats going on in arena nets head. they have made a persistant online MMO here, not an online action rpg like guild wars 1. They knew what they were getting into and I hope to god they have something in the works for all of us end-gamers.

or this is going to be a short 1-time wonder.

Valkyrie.2678:

Now that ANet is aware of hardcore GW2 players, hardcores should not ragequit but wait for the next content update which is I believe, soon.

This game is suffering from the same problem SWTOR had on release, you hit 80 and the majority of gamers are PvE’rs despite what elitest PvPers that think they are cool because they clock-wise zerg castle gates and grind eachother with cookie cutter builds over and over…. PvE is very important.

One content update is unlikely to turn around this end-game, I would be VERY suprized (Pleasantly) if there is an upcoming content patch that opens up PvE Dungeon Crawling end game and rebalances with proper rewards, proper loot tables, more insentives and more 80 dungeons.

But…. its unlikely, very.

crewthief.8649:

Apotheosis.3786:

Corvax.1675:

Arisal.9740:

Shootsfoot.9276:

In my opinion this wave of complaints about “end game” are coming mostly from the hard-core “gotta-max-level-asap” crowd who rushed through a game that wasn’t designed to be rushed through.

It’s like opening the box to Monopoly, picking the race car, stacking all the money and properties in front of you and placing hotels all over the place and then complaining that the game is completely lacking in substance.

Pretty much this. The game is meant to scale horizontally not vertically (gear treadmill) and those that are accustomed to the typical MMO games just realized this game is not like that. Most of those players didn’t realize that was the whole philosophy and don’t know “what to do” at end game. It’s actually kind of funny.

Its hard to break that old raiding gear tier mentality for a lot of people I guess.

These. Maybe I’m the minority here, but I don’t want to reach level 80 just yet. I want to PLAY this wonderful game. I want to explore, progress, or just be there. And when I reach level 80 eventually, I will start with a new character, new race, new profession. And I can do that several times in a lot of combinations, which is fantastic. All this hate talk and complaining lately about endgame and raids and gear leaves me a bit baffled. Why play this game then, if you don’t like a fresh, independent, new, non-repetitive approach?

The questing/leveling process is too shallow to take that as what the game is intended to be. This game is built around an endgame that isnt there. The quests are very similar and grindy, and the story is minimalistic. To do that over and over again without reason would be madness.

Then i’d suggest you leave…or go on vacation. And please, stop crying.

Please stop crying about him crying, its up to him.

Lmao, the ammount of contradictions in that manifesto.

99% of the hearts are boring quests.

I literally swing my sword over and over again because you only gave me 5 active moves per weapon.

“In guild wars 2 we dont want the players to grind over and over again for the fun stuff” actually having nice looking gear is fun to me arenanet and you are making me grind 1500 tokens which equals to 375 bosses in the same dungeon.

“In other mmos they dont make you feel like a hero, your all doing the same thing, boss respawns 10 minutes later” oh …. wait, thats dynamic events….. in a nutshell.

The big problem is alot of these “nice features” are not LONG TERM. they are the flash that makes up that 1-80 play through then your done, like many of us. with no real structure and thought into the end-game your left with PvP, a realm v realm where you have no real insentive to do it due to it not being very progressive … and literally no good end-game dungeon crawling structure.

So please, don’t link a video to me that is designed to build up hype.

luchifer.6401:

Birdy.4816:

ChairGraveyard.2967:

Birdy.4816:

Or mindlessly grinding 1000s of ores and leveling 100 times over for an aesthetic slightly flashier weapon.

Yes because running a “raid” (highly scripted boss fight where everyone facerolls the keyboard) 1000s of times is SOOOO much different.

… losing faith in people on the internet.

Completing challenging heroics, fighting epic bosses (Scripted is a problem to you? ALL THESE GAMES ARE SCRIPTED…. ALL GAMES ARE SCRIPTED AT THE CORE.) and having the thrill of awesome random drops, and unlockables, titles…

Isn’t generally more fun than … going around Orr…. mining veins for 100s of hours…. to get a weapon that looks slightly better than the rest, has no more power …… just 1 weapon… not a completely revamped character with cool unlocks… just 1 weapon…. to signify you grinding materials and effortless “scripted mobs” for 100s of hours..

Man I wish you would make an MMO, I’m sure people would flock to it.

reminds me of Vanilla WoW endgame:

want epics? kill 10000000 yetis for the darkmoon faire necklace, and then wait literally for a month for the darkmoon faire to appear near thunderbluff

want something cool and useless? kill 100000000 bears for the trinket who sumons three bears that do nothing, live for 10 seconds and have a 10 minute cooldown.

level skinning at max? run UBRS until your fingers bleed for a chance of The Beast to drop an item that will get ninja’d for someone who isnt a skinner.

oh.. the good old days

Comparing, dungeon gear to random outside grinds? at least WoW gave you MANY options.

Im sorry, its a childish arguement, if you dont like PvE thats fine, but cut the rubbish….. you can make any mode of a game sound horrible by doing what you are doing.

Im done with you, its just too childish. and for starters THIS ISNT VANILLA WOW, you telling me you think you have a case when you are comparing a 2012 game to the design philosophy of a 2004 game not the 2012 expansion which is massivly different?

Your making Guild Wars sound worse mate.