Guild Wars 2

Tiger.7506:

My God!
You really want to play an MMORPG?
Have a minimum of dedication!
If you do not have any time, go to CS, street fighter, Mario bross, sonic!

So if we’re unwilling or unable to grind, we’re have no business playing and make a legitimate target for insults? Yeah, a perfect example of the awful mentality that is entirely too common in gear-obsessed games. Also extremely counterproductive to the developers who need to make money form their product — which is harder when only grinders are welcome and anyone else should just STFU and GTFO.

Grinding endlessly certainly is one way to show “dedication”, but is it the only one? No. And certain people — which sadly appears to include at least some of the developers — need to bloody well stop acting as it it was. Just off the top of my head, there is also:

• Buying gems. With no monthly fee, this is the developers’ only source of post-purchase income from the game and thus rather important.
• Founding or running a guild, guild alliance or other community.
• Creating and maintaining a website, forum, chat or voicechat channel for said community.
• Writing guides and walkthroughs, making maps and videos, or otherwise increasing the overall wealth of knowledge about the game.
• Reaching out to new players with advice, answers and patience.
• Hosting events, be it RP, PvP, dungeons, dance-offs or anything else.
• Giving constructive feedback, criticism and suggestions for anything from the story to class balance.
• Running content you outgear and/or outlevel simply in order to help other players, even if you don’t gain anything from it.
• Be active, friendly, helpful and polite in-game, on the forums and in other game-related venues, thus helping to foster a positive, welcoming atmosphere.

All of these activities can be just as time-consuming as any grind and they aid the community. Jumping on the gear treadmill on the other hand is essentially a purely selfish thing. And when said treadmill becomes the only measure of a player’s worth, it’s downright toxic to the community.

I’m seriously, seriously sick of the MMO mentality that we’re worth less, or worthless, as players and customers if we don’t grind our brains out because that is the only approved and acknowledged way to show “dedication”.

Healix.5819:

The problem with horizontal progression is that when you feel your character is complete, you have no reason to continue, whereas with vertical progression, you’re (eventually) forced to continue.

No, that is not a problem with horizontal progression. It’s a problem of the gear-obsessed hamster wheel mentality that seems incapable of grasping the idea that a game is meant to be fun, not a second job that you are indeed “forced” to do. And instead of getting paid for said job, we pay for the “privilege” of being “forced” to do something that isn’t even fun. How utterly messed up is that?

WoW and similar games have brainwashed the creativity and initiative out of their players, at least the ones who wholeheartedly fall for the neverending treadmill, while fostering a very toxic atmosphere of elitism in which your entire worth not only as a player but frequently also as a human being is measured in pixel loot. And that is effing sad to say the least.

As I have said before, I want games with content that can stand on its own merit. I want to do an encounter 101 times because it’s interesting, challenging, funny, not because I’m “forced” to. I want to be able to grab a handful of nice folks and go have fun with them without having to worry about anyone being turned away because their gear isn’t purple enough.

Naoko.7096:

Players who hate vertical progression are just those players in the wrong group. They are players who favor action-games than rpgs during their console-gaming phases in life.

Aside from the fact that people are quite capable of liking different genres for different reasons and not want to mix them up, my experience is the complete opposite. People who want horizontal progression are the ones who love RPGs. They play for the experience, for the immersion. The gameplay has to be good, yes, and developing your character is fun, but not only is an endless grind is far from the only way to do that, it’s also the most mindless one.

I like to progress the character like in storybooks than having a non-progressive character that makes stages harder through progression. At the same time, I want realism of the world. The “best items” have real rewarding functions. The “philosopher stone” in Harry Potter and “ring” in Lord of The Rings novels are not just aesthetics.

Doesn’t that contradict the stereotypical MMO “endgame” vertical progression? In storybooks as well as singleplayer or pen & paper RPGs, the heroes don’t run through the same inexplicably respawning dungeon 101 times to gear up so they can run the next same inexplicably respawning dungeon 101 to gear up so they can run the next … etc. ad nauseam et ad infinitum.

The more gear-dependent and gear-grindy a game is (MMO or otherwise), the less “heroic” and “storybook-like” it becomes, IMO. The Fellowship don’t start their journey with rags and rusty knives and end it with +12 Hackmasters and Godly Armor of Immunity to Absolutely Everything. They don’t have to do months of mind-numbing dailies to earn tokens and faction rep for Sting or Anduril or Galadriel’s gifts — only to discard these treasures after the next bossfight because they’re now outdated and obsolete. The vast majority of the characters’ strength is inherent in them, while in a typical MMO you’re nothing without the latest “epix”.

That is one reason why I dislike gear-obsessed games and vertical progression. Other strong reasons are the splitting of the playerbase, the gating of content, and the fact that the vast majority of the content will quickly and permanently become obsolete and empty, as others have said. It’s also an excuse for the developers to do the same-old same-old instead of trying for innovation and actual quality content that can stand on its own feet, that players do because it’s fun and not because they have to.

Most of all, many people bought GW2 in no small part because it was going to be a breath of fresh air among all the neverending treadmills. The introduction of vertical progression is a kick in the rear for the game’s own “manifesto” and a departure from what people were looking for. It’s one thing to be able to give a game a pass because you know it doesn’t and won’t cater to you. No harm, no foul. But when the premise of a game changes after you bought it, that’s not good and it implies that the developers were either dishonest, or don’t actually know what they want, or have little faith in their own product.

Lutharr.1035:

Now to me those treadmills can be good if done correctly.

It does not matter. It does not matter if it “can be done correctly”, or if it’s much worse in other games. Many people bought this game on the premise and promise that it would be a breath of fresh air by not having the bloody hamster wheel unless you choose to go for rare skins. So much for that.

Now add this broken promise to all the other problems that the game has. It’s only natural that some people are fed up with it all and see this as a last straw.

Multi-guilding can work, if the person in question is both honest and dedicated enough (and has enough time for at least semi-regular participation in both guilds). Be upfront that you’re in another guild already, what you expect from and can give to both, and if that is in line with what both guilds expect from you. Most of all, don’t spend 90% of your time in your big glorious main guild and then expect the alt guild to instantly be there for you when you deign to give them some time now and then. People who do that are supremely irritating and deserving of some firm words and a swift kick if they keep it up.

Getting armor skins from dungeons IS “doing the same thing over and over”. So is crafting, due to the sheer amount of luck-dependent drops you need for every single piece.

I don’t think anyone actually believes a dungeon finder makes a game or its players more social. What it does is make things less tedious. Sitting in one spot and asking for a group over and over and over and over and over and over, potentially for hours and days on end if you’re after a trip to a less-popular, lower-level bit of content, is not a social experience — not to mention it’s not fun in any way, shape or form. It’s frustrating beyond belief and prevents people from actually playing the game during this time. With a LFG tool, you can still run around and do things — including talking to people! — while you wait. If no group is formed, you still got to play, to have fun, to get something done.

People will be social where and when they actually want to be social. Forced grouping, especially if it’s combined with the frustration of sitting in one place for hours to spam your fingers off trying to get a group, is frequently a recipe (though never an excuse, mind you) for tense, selfish or downright atrocious behavior to the other people.

As for guilds, I never joined one because I do not think it would have been “fair” to do so while I was still trying to get a feel for the game and decide if it’s worth sticking with, so I can’t comment on their state in this game. I think people are often too quick to join a guild — or make a guild, for that matter — without really being aware of or caring about the commitment that doing so entails.

… yeah, because that’s what people are saying. Not.

The problem is that there is ZERO difference between a sylvari and an asura. Between a charr and a human. There are ZERO distinguishing features whatsoever. Everyone acts exactly the same, spews exactly the same trite lines, is treated exactly the same by everyone around them (up to and including your very own mother treating you like a complete stranger). What on Earth is the point in even having different species to begin with if you turn them all into featureless, replaceable, forgettable blobs?

What I want is simple: to play a character who feels uniquely, recognizably sylvari/charr/norn from start to finish. That is all. And that is hardly an extraordinary expectation, especially since the game delivers it at the beginning before throwing it all away for no reason. It’s storytelling 101.

Basing the main storyline on the character’s culture would have allowed for great storytelling as well as personal development, because each culture would go about recognizing the need for the others, and learning to understand, appreciate and unite them, in a different way. As it is, you are never allowed — much less required! — to learn anything. You never have to change or grow. You are never forced to confront the mistakes made by your own people and the prejudice you learned from birth. It’s all immediate perfect-shiny-happy-fun-land. Why? Because “you” don’t exist. Your character is not a character. She or he is just a blob with no culture, no history, no personality, no opinions, no friends, no family, nothing.

It’s such a huge waste of the lore’s potential.

tkalamba.2541:

It’s already been said by Devs they fully intend Ascended gear to be available in all aspects of the game.

Some of what the developers said has already turned out to not be true. If these aspects were important to someone, and this issue of vertical progression is important to them too, you can’t really blame them for being suspicious or fed up by now. It’s not just GW2 either, far from it, so people who were burned before by unfulfilled promises and sheer hype in other games are likely to have increasingly less patience with problematic issues as well as less faith in official statements where current and future games are concerned. I know I do.

100% agreement. I’ve said this several times, so I won’t go into it again, but I do believe the game strongly suffers from the generic, featureless stand-in that you’re forcibly turned into after the enjoyable cultural story arcs. It’s boring, it breaks immersion, it significantly lowers replay value. It would have been awesome if we had five distinct but related story arcs based on culture, retaining that cultural individuality, but tying in with all other cultures as well as the orders.

So much wasted potential.

Agreed, and you’re not the only one. For me, this is the single biggest disappointment and reason why I stopped playing. The story is SO badly done, so utterly disjointed both externally (with the world) and internally (the individual arcs), so completely devoid of identity and individuality for our character as well as impact on the world, that I just couldn’t stomach it anymore after Claw Island. Well, the beginning is actually enjoyable because of the immersion in the cultural lore and because the flaws are less glaring. But it falls apart quickly after that.

It’s doubly and triply a shame because many aspects of the lore are very interesting to me, and I really wanted to get into and love this game.

IMO, a story based on promising lore and a promising beginning that is butchered horribly later on is worse and more demotivating that a story that is altogether bad or non-existent.

Mayam.8976:

One could go on to insinuate that of the “farming” and “grinding” one’s done in this game for their “B.I.S Set” it’s a drop in the bucket to what many MMOs require for a B.I.S set up. Such that if one is casting a negative judgement on this game for it’s inherent “farming and grinding” then MMOs in general just may not be their bag.

Eh, I find that statement a bit sad. Mind, if someone honestly enjoys games that revolve around gear and grinding, that is perfectly fine, no skin off my nose, and no one has a right to begrudge them their fun or look down on them for liking what they do. I just wish that courtesy would go both ways. To imply that an entire genre must be this way instead of exploring the many other possibilities snubs everyone who does not enjoy these things, and it hinders innovation. And the fact that other games have a worse grind is not really a point in favor of this one.

There’s nothing about the basic idea of the MMORPG genre that implies or requires a grind. It’s not like saying well, FPS games are about killings lots and lots of people in real time, so if you don’t like that, you’re out of luck. Grinding isn’t even on the list if I’m thinking of what defines an RPG and makes it enjoyable. So I sincerely don’t understand why the concept of the central importance of grinding has become so widely, casually accepted — often to the exclusion of features like interaction, cooperation, creativity, story, choices and consequences, all of which are even more interesting in a multiplayer environment compared to a singleplayer one.

Again, I’m not saying that grind-based games should not be made. But I don’t want them to be seen as the end-all and be-all of the genre either — partly because IMO grinding is utterly uninspired and boring. If a developer relies on grinding to artificially extend playtime, I can’t help but think that they’re either bad or just plain lazy, and have no real passion for nor confidence in their game.

I didn’t quit over this issue, but it’s definitely another nail in the coffin. And I think many who are leaving or have left are not doing so over one single issue. For me, if it was just one (or two) aspects that annoyed or frustrated me, I’d still stick around if the rest of the game was good fun. Unfortunately, that isn’t the case with GW2.

Between the disjointed mess of the personal story (which is neither personal nor a story) and the painful crafting grind even at low levels, that’s already two big disappointments flying in the face of the promises I bought this game on. Adding vertical progression is another. And I don’t care if it’s “just once, promise”. They said there would be no such thing, and now here it is, a few months after launch. What else is coming down the line? Add some quality of life issues like the lack of a dungeon finder and the cruddy chat system, and the game I wanted to like so much is just a letdown.

Frankly, the blessed absence of vertical progression and gear-obsession is maybe the biggest reason why I bought this game, along with the promising lore and the lure of a story set in it. I can’t stand grinding nor gear-obsession, and I positively loathe the player attitudes that invariably go hand in hand with these features. They already show up when it’s “just” cosmetic. Add better stats and it only gets worse.

I stuck with WoW for seven years almost exclusively for RP, my guild and my enjoyment of tanking though I spent most of that time severely annoyed with Blizzard for multiple reasons. I’m not prepared to go through that sort of frustration again, no matter how much I wanted to like this game. The three fellow ex-WoW guildies who got into GW2 with me all burned out on it around the same time I did, pretty much for the same reasons, and this new grind is another argument not to come back for them too. And I swear honest to goodness that we all WANTED to love this game and hoped to stick with it for a long while.

As I have said before, I don’t see Trahearne as a problem per se. Could be have been handled better? Could he have been written better? Of course; much better in fact. But the real problem is the fact that the “personal story” is a blatant lie. There is nothing personal, because the player has no identity — the early cultural story arcs are great, but that is erased completely once you join an order and become a generic, featureless filler. And there is no story, just a mess of disjointed mini-arcs with zero continuity or coherence.

That is what makes Trahearne a problem. Because the player has no identity nor continuity, Trahearne is the sole focus for everything. He is the one people remember while forgetting the player immediately. He is the one who gets credit even for events at which he wasn’t present. He’s the one who remains while other NPCs come and go faster than you can get to know them, much less get attached to them.

If our player characters were actually characters, if they actually had a story and a place in it, if they were allowed a personality and identity, if people remembered them, if they were able to get to know and befriend other recurring characters, then Trahearne would be fine. Still no stellar character by any means, but not a symptom for everything that’s effing WRONG with the not-story in this game, either.

Be careful touting evo-psych as if it was absolute truth. For one, “beauty standards” are neither objective nor universal, especially when it comes to different species. And if you think that hetero women don’t care about looks, think again. Not to mention that it’s established that norn only go for people whom they consider equals. An untested, scrawny, helpless-acting woman-child isn’t going to cut it in the eyes of the hetero norn guys. They want someone who can drink them under the table and still shoot a minotaur at a hundred paces afterwards. :p

Also, the “their game, their rules” angle is just irritating. Goodness forbid that women (or gays, or blacks, or other generally marginalized people) ask for better representation. Or that we have more options in general. Does “their game, their rules” apply to everything else that people voice concern, frustration or suggestions about, too?

@Rial and CharrGirl: thumbs up. Sadly, when it comes to women’s looks, it’s usual all seen in black or white. Either you’re Hollywood-gorgeous or you’re “ugly”. Either you’re stick-thin or you’re “fat”. Either you have huge kitten spilling out of your skimpy dress, or you “look like a man”. Goodness forbid we’re “allowed” look average, as you said.

Ninth Requiem.3250:

In the Charr Flame Shaman father path : Rytlock’s “That was too much fun to stop now. Here – I’ll hold him up, you kill him again!”

Where does that come up? I chose to ambush the badguys at their lair to interrupt their ritual rather than warn the Citadel, so I guess that’s why I missed it?

You’re definitely not the only one who feels that way. Great and promising beginning with some choices and an actual feel of cultural immersion … then it nosedives hard as you become a generic hero-filler without any identifying characteristics, cultural or otherwise.

As someone who vastly prefers the initial cultural stories over the boring generic mess that follows them, I agree. I like Forgal of the Vigil well enough, mind, but more cultural ties and content just makes for much better immersion and replay value. Plus there are way too many throwaway NPCs, which is bad for the story. You can’t really get close to anyone because everyone vanishes or dies on you.

1) What is your age? Gender?
Female, 34.

2) How important is a game’s story to you? Why?
In RPGs and adventures, it’s the top priority. In other genres, it can still make the difference between a good game and a “meh” one (for good or bad, depending on the story quality), and between merely playing a game and being immersed in it.

3) Within a game’s story, are you more interested in individual characters, or in bigger events and groups?
Both are important. I want there to be a greater theme and goal and purpose. I also want recurring and well-developed friends and enemies, superiors and followers, mentors and rivals, because they make the “greater whole” personal. They create the emotional connections without which a story falls flat.

4) In regards to your own character, do you identify with them? In other words, do you view your character as yourself? Or do you view your character as a separate entity which you created?
My characters are my creations, not self-inserts. Still, while I use them to explore some things I can’t or wouldn’t do myself, they stay within certain limits.

5) Do you view your character’s progression as something you create/determine, or something the game itself creates/determines?
Depends on how well the game lends itself to roleplaying. Do I like the setting, does the gameplay/questing match the sort of character I’m playing, is it single- or multiplayer? And so on. In WoW for example, gameplay and roleplay were almost 100% separate.

6) What do you view as your character’s ultimate goal? Is it different from the goal of defeating the final dungeon or raid boss?
See above.

7) How effective do you find personal story in MMORPGs (usually done through personal instances/quests)? Do you find it disjointed from the rest of the game, or do you feel it fits well with the rest of the game?
Extremely ineffective and crudely tacked on to the generic MMO grind. I briefly played TOR and GW2 but lost interest in both pretty quickly partly because the hyped personal stories were such a letdown. It’s painfully obvious that GW2’s story was a distant tenth priority at best. The worst part of it is the complete and utter lack of continuity, which turn all the brief individual story-arcs into a disjointed and meaningless mess. The beginning was still fun because I was actually a sylvari/charr/whatever doing things that are important to my people, for my people, with my people. That sense of immersion makes the lack of continuity less obvious and painful. But before long the game turns my character into a generic featureless filler who loses all distinguishing cultural aspects and isn’t even recognized by any of her own kind anymore.

8) How do you view the idea that many other players are also playing through the same personal story?
Doesn’t bother me at all. It does mean that no one can claim to be the one big special chosen superhero that the game paints us all to be, so that’s something everyone should keep in mind when roleplaying.

9) How do you view your character’s personal story in relation to the larger stories in the game, or the lore of the game? Do you see a difference between individual story and group story in the game?
My ideal in a MMO would be an unbroken string of quests and plots based on my chosen species and class, from creation to “endgame”. Generic free-for-all quests that treat everyone the same should be a minority instead of the overwhelming majority. This would boost both replay value and immersion over the moon. Basically, I want my personal story to be the “larger story”, but different for each character.

I agree on the lack of cultural armor. Slapping “human” armor on everyone is just a lazy design choice, there should be much more variety for all level ranges. You stick out like a sore thumb as a new sylvari character in that “human” gear while all the NPC wear the much more immersive/appropriate cultural gear.

The customization choices, though? Gotta disagree strongly. The variety of colors is one of the best aspects of this species, and there’s nothing “unnatural” about it either. If anything, I’d like more clearly alien options because that’s what the sylvari are: alien. They’re not just generic humans with some bodypaint and tiny Star Trek-style prosthetics glued on their faces.

Jeffrey, is there also any unimplemented/bugged alternative dialogue for when a sylvari is sent to talk to the Pale Tree with Trahearne? The fact that sylvari aren’t recognized by their own bleedin’ mother is one of the big story-killers IMO.

Yeah, the lack of continuity in this game feels especially bad with a charr character because of the warband.

Most of this has been mentioned before, and I agree. What it mainly boils down to above all is the mind-boggling, complete and utter lack of continuity. It’s beyond my understanding how the “story” could have been released in this state. Nothing I do matters because everyone will have forgotten about it, and me, in the span of like five minutes. Every character I even begin to bond with either vanishes just as quickly, dies or (again) doesn’t remember me anymore. There’s also no “character” or sense of cultural identity and immersion after the first few chapters. Why even have five distinct species if everyone talks, acts and is treated in exactly the same way, i.e. a generic bland human in a funny suit?

It’s really killed my motivation to log in. A lack of story isn’t as bad as an utterly butchered one.

“Romances” in say the Bioware games are as shallow as a parking lot puddle. To really do them justice in this sort of MMO would be even harder, especially since there are no companion characters. And overall, the story in this game is awful enough that there are about a dozen huge issues that I’d rather see fixed and changed long before even thinking about including this sort of thing.

On the plus side, this thread may have had a sour beginning, but it has turned into something you sadly don’t often find on “big” forums, even on less “heated” topics: most of the replies are both polite and supportive, without the mods having to swing the banhammer. Quite the breath of fresh air. Thumbs up, people.

Making them even more plant-like and alien would have been great. It would make the generic human-style armor look even more inane on them, though, and sadly MMOs are still way too gear-obsessed to allow a more “natural” look for this sort of alien species.

I disagree on the size. For one, it’s personal preference — I don’t like to have tiny or scrawny forced on me. Beside that, I don’t think anything ever pointed to the fact that the sylvari, or this sort of plant-or-tree-like-species in general, “have” to look like that.

Eh, there’s a lot I miss about the “good old days”, but insanely difficult games are not on the list (as opposed to greater genre diversity, deep RPGs such as Ultima VI and VII, or many good now-defunct studios). Brutal difficulty for its own sake is not fun for many, especially in a hobby pursued for recreation from actual RL work and/or stress. Brutal difficulty for the sake of hiding a lack of content and artificially increasing playtime (and number of coins dumped in the arcade machine) is even worse.

The story arcs shouldn’t be a cakewalk, but neither should they be the place where the game suddenly decides to teach you a lesson. Have optional, open-world content for that. Story missions should focus on the story above all. Immersion, RP, choices and consequences, friendship and betrayal, triumph and tragedy. Just as most players wouldn’t want to be forced to jump through a hard PvP hoop before they can PvE, or vice versa, IMO a story mission should also mainly be able to be enjoyed for its own sake.

@Anakita: you have a good point there.

aedra.8361:

(…) but I feel this is pretty big issue, particularly for a game that was really trying to put the RPG back into MMORPG. I find it a real shame the further you go into the story the less personal and interesting it seems to become. This problem is further emphasized by complete lack of ability to choose your character’s personality and dialogue choices. This whole dignity/charm/intimate system was too shallow and underutilized.

Yes, exactly. I had hoped that without the genre’s usual myopic obsession with “endgame” and neverending gear inflation, there’d be more resources to spend on the story. And for sure it’s good that at least some MMOs actually try to add a story now (TOR, GW2). It’s a start, but it really falls flat due to the plot holes, disposable NPCs, horrible lack of continuity and, after the early chapters, a lack of personality as well. There’s so much wasted, underused potential in both the interesting cultural backgrounds and the absence of actual RP elements like conversation choices.

It would have rocked to have 5 more or less independent story arcs for the whole game — one for each culture, varied by both character creation and in-game choices. Just as it would have rocked to build a team of permanent/recurring characters and watch them be involved and grow in strength alongside me. Between each culture’s Destiny’s Edge member, people from the early story arcs, the cultural order representatives, maybe one chosen order mentor too, and yes Trahearne as well (written better and introduced early), it’d be a fun and diverse cast.

Yes, it would have been a lot of work. And no single character would see it all, but that would be a good thing because of the added replay value on top of the immersion factor.

IceBlink.4317:

Then you stop to listen to the kids and realise they’re roleplaying as Destiny’s Edge, and picking roles… and the charr kid goes “I’m Logan, and I’m gonna run away.”

Heh, yes, that got a laugh out of me too since I can’t say I care for the guy either.

Also, after their argument and they all walk away in different directions… HEY EIR! YOU FORGOT YOUR DOG! Maybe it’s a bug or something, but Garm just stays there. XD

That combined with the absolutely weird facial expression that the wolves have in this game gave me the impression that he was as unamused by the brouhaha of brainless brats as I was. Hey Garm, wanna tag along and be my buddy instead?

The best (and intentional) humor value so far was in the “passed out at the moot” norn story arc. That is just a hoot, at least early on — it gets more serious later, but your drinking buddy can still be counted on for the occasional funny line. He’s in sooo much trouble and he knows it. And yet, when it’s all over, there’s still a bit of a “hey let’s do it again” kind of banter between him and you.

I was also amused by how Sieran (the Durmand Priory mentor) got berated by her boss for her flakiness. Normally I don’t like the arrogant asura babble, but in this case it was deserved. He has some amusing expressions/insults that play on her being a plant.

@Xriah: now imagine doing that scene with a bleedin’ sylvari. As in, popped out of the Pale Tree’s very own pod. You go from being her treasured and trusted child with a crucial mission (the early, cultural story-arcs) to Generic Featureless Stranger whom even your own mother doesn’t recognize. It’s a serious game-killer for me.

LameFox.6349:

I’ve honestly never counted them. Most of my charr characters are female though, as I find their looks and voice less over-the-top.

I agree on the looks. The charr females are a fantastic example for well designed “beast people” while most of the male options seem designed to try way too hard in the “LOOK AT ME! I’M MEAN AND SCARY!” department. It’s hard for me to consider them mean or scary seeing as how they live in constant danger of serious self-mutilation by their own teeth. :p Trying too hard like that inevitably backfires and turns me off hard, be it in terms of scary, evil, cute, “manly” or “sexy” or whatever. It becomes a caricature.

The female charr voice could use more oomph, though. It’s not exactly the sort of voice that I could imagine bellowing orders across the din of a chaotic battlefield. (Maybe I’m doing the VA a disservice there; it’d help if our character actually had a chance to bellow orders like that now and then.) I’d like it to be deeper and with a bit more of a growl and military briskness to it when called for.

Aside from one or two tricky POIs, I don’t consider the Citadel that hard to navigate — and those were mainly an issue of me not seeing what was right in front of me. The Grove had me confused for longer, partly because I played sylvari first and was still in a kind of “dazed by shiny new game” state of mind. :p The map could definitely be clearer as to which level something is actually on, though. The icons don’t always go transparent or solid as they should.

Rhyse.8176:

Second, the voice direction was obviously given to make the PC’s characters very flat. I think they didn’t want to impose a particular character onto the players perception of their character, but the result is a dead performance.

If that is true, then it’s a definite brainfart since the game absolutely does not hesitate to “impose a particular character” on us otherwise. It’s extremely rare to have any choice at all as to what our characters say, and if we do it has absolutely no impact on anything (i.e. the Charm/Dignity/Ferocity split, which is one of the game’s wasted potentials).

A bit more emotion would definitely help rather than hurt, in terms of both writing and acting.

There is a huge difference between “slim toned” and “underfed and scrawny”. Granted, the norn women aren’t as bad as the humans, but that’s kitten with faint praise, really. They should look more like their men: thick, tough and strong. Not like slightly taller humans with huge racks.

A thin little scrap of any species just isn’t credible as a heavy-duty adventurer, even if they’re not swinging a greatsword around. It becomes even less credible when that person is from a species renowned for their physical fortitude and a culture obsessed with proving one’s strength and forging one’s legend.

I could live with the scrawny little girl options if at least all species had options for strong and tough (and mature- and older-looking) warrior-types too. Only the charr really have that, sadly.

I can’t agree with the suggestion of a book about Trahearne. Any lore that is needed to grasp a game and its characters must be in the game itself. Period. I’m not going to waste my money on a buy-this-buy-that scheme when all I want is to enjoy a new game. Once a new setting has proven interesting, I might be interested in further material on it. Even so, what contact with “franchise fiction” I have had over the years has convinced me that it’s usually a big steaming pile of horribly written BS, so I’d be doubly wary of a game that expects me to pay extra for books, comics and other nonsense to understand what’s going on.

Destiny’s Edge could have been handled better in the game, too.

Full and utter agreement. I am someone who loves nothing more than to immerse myself in my character’s culture and background, so I really enjoy those early story arcs. They allow me to actually feel like a sylvari/norn/charr, to play the character I created and wanted to play. I love talking to the Pale Tree as one of her “children” bearing a heavy burden and being helped by her to prepare for it. I love my warband buddy and the giving and taking of orders. I love the heady boastful confidence and living life to the fullest in the icy mountains.

Where is any of that once you join an Order? I don’t want to be a Generic Bland Human who is forgotten by everyone after each story arc and who displays no identifying characteristics whatsoever. Immersion and replay value suffer hugely as a result.

Please, for any future planned content, let us go back to our roots. Let culture and past choices branch out the main story so we can actually continue to play our characters instead of the Generic Bland Human that’s forced on us now. As it is, there’s just no appeal for me to spend any more money on this game.

Corax.7381:

The “personal” story ends when you join an Order, because that’s when the main story takes over.

I don’t see why they two have to be mutually exclusive. It would have been so much better, in terms of both immersion and replay value, to have the personal story as the main story, or at least heavily influencing it. Instead we go from"immersed in an interesting new culture" to “generic faceless filler” and a horribly disjointed mess with no continuity whatsoever.

I want my sylvari (charr/norn) to continue to feel like a sylvari (charr/norn). I want my own people to recognize me instead of treating me like that generic faceless filler. I want the chance to closely bond with recurring NPCs instead of being partnered with one throwaway after the other. I want a basic sense of continuity. A story which fails to deliver that is a sorry excuse for a flimsy figleaf that might as well have been left out of the game altogether for all the impact it has.

I love the early chapters, the cultural ones. After that, there’s just so much wasted potential that it makes me sad and angry at the same time.

Xfraze.1704:

I really love the game, but I’ve lost faith in MMOs providing a consistent narrative for story.

There are a lot of really cool and fun scenes, and as long as I look at it in the context of me not really mattering, it’s all fun and games…but as soon as I start to think that I matter and notice that things I did before aren’t being properly referenced or just plain ignored, it falls apart.

I had a similar problem with SWTOR, but since the enjoyment for that came strictly from the story more than the game mechanics or systems itself, I eventually stopped playing. I really hoped that GW2 would be my fix for a persistent world with a coherent narrative and I’ve been disappointed.

Are you reading my mind? This is me, word for word. It’s a huge letdown, and one major reason why I’m already losing interest in this game — just as it was with TOR. It’s mind-boggling, really, because many of the problems are so obvious that I can’t imagine how they could ever have been greenlit, unless the vaunted “personal story” played distant tenth fiddle to everything else during development and had no coordination or QA at all.

Completely disjointed story arcs, choices that don’t matter because they never come up again, the few recurring NPCs that exist not remembering me, others getting credit for my actions, NPCs being introduced and forgotten just as quickly … seriously, avoiding that is not rocket science, it’s Storytelling 101.

There’s so much potential in this setting, it’s just a bleeding shame that the game drops it all after the engaging early cultural story arcs.

Zish.9817:

So, is the dialog for the Pale Tree supposed to be altered as well? What about Tegweyn and Carys?

I’d still really like an answer to this as well. Such grotesque immersion- and continuity-killers should never have slipped through testing. Past friends and our very own “mother” treating us like strangers needs to be fixed.

Red Falcon.8257:

@Chad
Mary Sue means a character that’s idealized and uses clichès.

In other words: the player character.

What exactly one regards as a “Sue” differs from person to person — some focus on the “author’s self-insert” aspect, others on “s/he can do no wrong” or “everyone loves her/him”, still others on “bends and breaks the rules of the setting”. However, the one thing that many discussions about “Sues” that I’ve seen have in common is that the term is usually only applied to characters that people don’t like — yet other characters who are at least as over the top as the “Sue” get a free pass. The label is applied to marginalized people more readily than to privileged ones, because the former aren’t expected or “allowed” to be as competent as the latter. It is applied to NPCs more than to PCs, because we are the PCs and we somehow “deserve” to be Special™.

That is why I consider the term to be meaningless as well as hypocritical. Instead of calling someone a “Sue”, it’s much better to point out to the writers exactly why the character is aggravating, over the top or just plain broken.

I’m not saying Trahearne isn’t problematic, mind you. For me he’s a big symptom of the mind-bogglingly lazy and disjointed writing in which continuity doesn’t exist, and in which the PC is turned from a person immersed in her own culture into a nameless, faceless, culture-less generic filler whose friends and accomplishments are forgotten after each act. Does Trahearne get all this credit and attention in the story because the writers simply couldn’t be arsed to write the diversity of the PC’s origins and choices into the plot? That’s my hunch at least, so I’m extremely annoyed with the writers, not the character.

Sarisa.4731:

A female norn is 8-9 feet tall, and (estimated) 400-500 pounds of muscle. Nobody would expect someone built like that, with the lungs to power it, to have a diminutive “girly” voice.

Word. I love the voice for that reason, it really fits. I don’t find her “flat” either, at least not moreso than any of the others.

Red Falcon, because I can easily make a corresponding or bigger list for many video game protagonists including this one — yet many people still clamor that their own characters “deserve” to be that Special™ and more. The term “Mary Sue” as it’s commonly used isn’t so much about how over the top a character may or may not be, it’s become a keyword for “someone else’s character I don’t like” (especially if it’s a woman).

I don’t like the way Trahearne is handled, either, though I do like the basic idea behind him. But just calling him a “Sue” doesn’t actually address any of the huge continuity problems or other issues that plague the game’s story. What makes Trahearne a problem is based on these issues, not on the fact that someone who isn’t the PC is allowed to be important.

I admit I also don’t get the “boring” accusations that some people make, though that’s more down to personal taste. We should be able to learn more about him, yes, but that holds true for every other NPC as well.

I’ll go with what fits the personality of each character. On a personal level, I prefer the Vigil. Their straightforward attitude combined with doing good deeds is just the most sympathetic — pretty much the exact opposite of the Order of Whispers, whose members I usually can’t bloody stand. Priory is somewhere in between. Sieran can’t hold a candle to Forgal, though, she’s just so flaky it’s hard to see her as a respected member.

Animok.2789:

3) The personal story missions with gimmick mechanics are a problem. If you give a player a gimmick device to use for a mission it can be fun IF that gimmick makes the player feel more powerful than they usually do.

This is a good point, yes.

And don’t get me started on the various transformations and disguises, which cripple the player from the get-go because you can’t attack on the move while wearing them. In a game that emphasizes movement so much, that is a huge problem.

I’d also like to add that we should have some time to read the gimmick’s skill descriptions and try them on on mooks before having to use it in a serious battle.

The problem with Trahearne is not, IMO, that he exists and has a prominent role — the problem is the awful, incoherent story-writing that a) introduces him too late to non-sylvari, and b) gives him credit for the PC’s actions while c) utterly ignoring the species and past story choices of the PC. That is what I meant to say with my last post.

It’s half-sad, half-amusing to me to see people complain that Trahearne is a “Mary Sue”. Amusing because if he is one, then what is the player character? And sad because I like the bugger and see his potential for the story, if it had been paced better and if its continuity wasn’t butchered at every turn. Don’t blame and hate Trahearne, he isn’t real and is just one symptom of the general problems with the storytelling in this game. Blame the writers and ask WTF they were thinking when they cobbled the disjointed story arcs together in pretty much the worst possible way — a mistake that should have been glaringly obvious from the start.

Complete agreement. This setting has so much potential, with individual story arcs that are quite fun. But as a whole the personal story is a horribly disjointed mess in which NPCs are introduced and forgotten just as quickly, past actions and acquaintances are completely ignored, and the joy of immersing myself in my character’s culture is quickly replaced with being treated as generic human in a funny suit who isn’t even recognized by her own people anymore.

And that is just unmitigated BS. Anet, you can do better than this. You HAVE to do better. If I had known about this in advance, how the big selling point of the personal story is butchered by a complete lack of coherence and continuity, I don’t think I’d have bought the game at all.

I like having NPCs as my peers and superiors because I’m sick and tired of the constant Only You Can Save Us O Godlike Chosen One ego-stroking and stories in which no one else is allowed to be remotely intelligent, competent or involved.

What is an absolute, non-negotiable no-go, however, is giving an NPC credit for the player’s actions. Doing that absolutely murders, butchers and mutilates any sense of immersion and coherence — not to mention it really ticks people off. People you met before, people you helped and saved, people who were close to you, people who awarded you a special position … if you meet them again and they treat you like a random, generic stranger, then the devs might as well just delete the earlier story-missions in which you met them. Because they apparently never happened.

Seriously, I can’t believe that this even needs to be pointed out. That sort of thing is kindergarten-level knowledge for anyone who wants to tell a story.

Agreed Numot. And beside that, the warband has to come first. If you’re bedding an outsider, you absolutely can’t let your attachment to them get in the way of that primary loyalty to your brothers and sisters. If your bedding a ’band-mate, you gotta keep it low and professional, because favouritism could wreck the whole group.

It’s one reason charr are interesting, IMO, because this is a refreshing departure from ZOMG Twoo Wuv obsessions. :p

Milennin.4825:

The defending the Queen mission isn’t really hard if you took the time to read what the weapon exactly does.

That isn’t always possible, though. I’m not a fan of the humans so I can’t speak about that particular mission, but for example a sylvari who sides with the Priory for the final “choose your order” story-mission suddenly gets stuck with a special weapon for the final bossfight. Literally pulled out of nowhere, with no time to read skill popups nor time to familiarize yourself with it. If you go Vigil, you have that weapon for the entire mission. Thankfully, I’d played Vigil first and at least vaguely remembered how the bloody thing works.

Being stripped of one’s familiar weapon plus class abilities and immediately dropkicked into a nasty fight is just a recipe for annoyance.

Grakor.3450:

Any thicker? The Norn men are easily twice that thick and get around just fine, thanks.

Yeah, I’d love to have the sturdier norn bodytypes available for human women, who really are terribly scrawny, and have norn women who actually resemble their men more than they resemble overgrown humans. Mind, the norn men are a bit too “steroid hulk” for my liking — but if the designers want a species to look like that, they should go the whole way.

The Centurion thing makes no sense, no. It just feels like pointless, unexplained, nonsensical ego-stroking. Even the Legionnaire title is pretty meaningless since the warband just vanishes as soon as you start the “sire” storyline. I really wish Anet had made the cultural storylines the focus of the game and fleshed the respective characters out more.