Guild Wars 2

It’s really incomprehensible for a game which is all about mobility in combat to take that mobility away when the player is transformed or disguised. In combination with also making utility skills inaccessible, it just has “trap” written all over it. That really needs to change.

Aside from the enormous racks, the norn aren’t quite as oversexualized as the human women, but they’re still disappointing nonetheless because they’re just oversized humans. They need quite a bit of work to give them a look that actually reflects their lifestyle — rugged and kickarse. The men come with that by default. Thankfully, the norn ladies at least have more faces that actually look like adults instead of jailbait (which is what I hate the most about the humans).

The forced makeup on many faces really needs to go, for both species. And a bit more maturity and scars in the faces and bulk in the bodies would be a big help, too.

The story should be just that — focused on a STORY, on immersion and characterization and lore and twists and turns, friends and foes. Not on twitch skills. Certainly not on “punishing” people. Almost all of the game is already about bouncing around, killing things, looting stuff … I want the story missions, at least, focus on something else.

That said, I do think the game needs some way to encourage learning. The difference between open-world content and the first dungeon is just brutal. As are a few group events in the open-world content. There should be more of a middle ground between the “2-5 people can steamroll this on autopilot” and “grotesquely overpowered champion with various one-shot attacks, especially in melee”.

Yes, I agree. Saying that all of two same-sex relationships in the game should be “eased down” when one of them is only encountered in two scenes in one out of three possible story arcs (and you don’t even have to talk to them in the second), and the other is so low-key, is basically just asking for erasure again. I thought the two gay men were handled quite nicely. And they weren’t even the main focus of the arc. Gairwen’s loyalty to her dead male lover and her disgust with Bercilak’s advances got more “airtime” than the two guys did.

If there is a “forced” and in-your-face relationship in this game, it’s gotta be Logan’s obnoxious mix of rage and wangsting over Jennah-this-Jennah-that.

Korval.2197:

I very much believe in the idea that a personal story should be primarily about telling a story. It should not be about challenge because challenge can be had in places like dungeons which are isolated pieces of content.

Definite agreement. I like a challenge now and then — couldn’t have been a tank during my entire time in WoW otherwise. I haven’t rage-quit a story-mission yet even though I came close once or twice. But there’s a difference between a fair challenge and a “spawn half a dozen hard-hitting enemies with ranged attacks right on top of a lowbie player in an open area” or “endless instant respawns out of thin air” or “10+ Usain Bolt zombies with knockdowns and conditions out the wazoo”.

Also, changing utilities and whatnot doesn’t seem to do a whole lot because of the long cooldowns (and short durations) on many of those things.

If you want to fix the personal story then the way to fix it is to replace the design goal:

“kill the player”

with

“give the player good memories of a well thought out story with plot twists that play out over many levels. Also, although the character is considered to be a hero, this still does not make him perfect and unable to screw up”.

Again, full agreement. Seriously, the story missions are should be what engages us emotionally. They shouldn’t be 95% running around and (sometimes badly overtuned) combat and 5% conversation with disposable NPCs whom we will never see again — or if we do, they’ll remember neither us nor how close we were nor what we did for them.

It’s really disappointing that there are only four armor options, none of which are available for low- or even mid-level characters unless the player somehow has a lot of money. And even then, some of those armors look more like plastic than anything — just like some of the sylvari faces and “hair styles” do. I really don’t know what’s up with that.

It’d mean the world for immersion if our starting gear was actual sylvari armor. Make it plain as day, I don’t care, just give us something leafy please. It’s ridiculous to run around looking like a human while everyone around us proudly wear their leaves.

BobbyStein.2315:

The iconics got new voiced dialogue, and many of the side characters were reused in different places throughout the game.

That is good! But are they supposed to recognize you properly if you picked the story-choice in which they were first introduced? Many players say recurring characters don’t do that, and it’s a huge bummer. For example, I heard we talk to the Pale Tree at some point, and if she doesn’t recognize my sylvari has one of her “children” (much less her Herald) but treats her like any random human … let’s just say such things kill a story for me.

I think the main issue is that many characters come and go every 10 levels, so it’s hard for people to really care about them in the long run. That’s something we intend to focus on more in the future.

I’m very glad to hear that. It not only adds to the sense of immersion/attachment when you meet someone again — it also adds replay value if you know that some of the NPCs aren’t just random Janes and Joes but people you can potentially meet earlier and repeatedly if you make different choices.

If you could bring back some of the early NPCs from the cultural story arcs, and focus more on that sort of content instead of a “generic hero” story that treats a sylvari just the same as it does an asura, I’d be a very happy player.

Adapt to the surroundings, maybe? Primarily white-ish with maybe some pale gray and brown for the snowy zones, greens and browns for wooded zones, and so on. It’s what I’m planning to do with mine.

Gavin is one of the best characters I’ve met so far, IMO. Most Courtiers are rather stereotypical moustache-twirling villains: extremely obvious, extremely stupid. He actually had me fooled until the chase sequence, when something he rang a warning bell in the back of my mind, but even that wasn’t blatant enough to see through him right away. So well done there! He’s still a badguy without any doubt, and good riddance when he dies, but he was refreshing all the same.

Szin.1250:

My complaint is that there aren’t nearly enough same-sex relationships to make the world believable.

Yes. See, what actually is “forced” is a game world that is entirely, stereotypically heteronormative. Or devoid of women. Or devoid of people of color. Making a small effort to actually show some of the diversity that exists in the real world is the opposite of forced or artificial.

If we’d see a same-sex couple among the other species sometime too, that’d be awesome.

There could maybe be a bit more tension, but at the same time I’m powerfully glad that we don’t have open conflict among the playable species/cultures in this game. As an ex-WoW player, I went through years of endless frustration with atrociously bad writing that tried to have its cake (push PvP via faction hate) and eat it too (neutral factions that had no business being neutral). It just doesn’t work at all.

The wind was annoying, especially on the second part, but I’m admittedly bad at platforming. I actually found Sieran’s dialog to be even worse, though. Seriously, I loathe such cases of "our NPCs are special snowflakes and can do all sorts of cool, handy things that you can’t even when you’re the same class using the same skills". And then the writers even rub it in your face. Never learned that trick? Yeah missy, if you were a player, that "trick" would be called "hacking" and rightfully get you banned.

Grr. *puts on Grumpy Players Against Cheating NPCs campaign hat*

That’s your prerogative. Just please try to have some empathy for and don’t insult people for whom to matters a great deal to see “someone like them” represented in a game/story for once, and represented positively, instead of having their humanity and their very existence made fun of, stereotyped, spat on or outright erased time and time and time again — both IRL and in entertainment.

I think you’re misreading me. I agree that diversity is a gift. But many people don’t, and they can make life difficult or even utter hell for those who are “different” — and society still often turns a blind eye or blames the victim. Of course there’s progress in various areas of diversity/representation/social justice, but it also comes with frequent ugly backlashing.

And not everyone who is “different” is lucky enough to have a supportive family or other RL environment. Whether you can imagine it or call it healthy or not, my personal experience as well as what I heard from many other people is that if you don’t have any support IRL, especially as a little kid, then it can be a tremendous relief when at least you can find a fictional character who is “like you” and represented in a positive light.

At any rate, this is getting political. I merely wanted to say that those who say “who cares?” to any diversity issue are frequently blind to their own privilege of not having to care because they are already catered to by default. A lack of empathy, basically.

I agree that “disposable NPC syndrome”, whether they die or just disappear, is annoying. It’s much better to introduce a smaller number of recurring NPCs who you have time and opportunity to “bond” with, instead of a constant stream of new faces who vanish just as quickly.

I never played GW1, but this issue has come up before and I definitely share the disappointment with it. The industry as a whole definitely has diversity issues, it would have been sweet to see this game create a counterpoint.

As for who cares? Sorry, but that statement comes across as very ignorant. People who have the huge privilege of being seen as “the norm” in our society and the gaming industry obviously don’t need to care because they’re always catered to. If you’re not a straight white man, you’re not so lucky. And positive role models can be incredibly important for one’s identity and self-esteem.

I’m about as pasty European as they come, and I’d still happily root for another ethnicity being the majority and the “default” for once. It’s one of the reasons why Jade Empire, an older Bioware title, is still so memorable to me.

So yes, please, have the humans reflect their own lore better. And while we’re at it, more non-Caucasian presets and customization options would be good too.

Hrmf. On one hand I feel as if the devs are manipulating us into liking them with the cuteness overdose, and that annoys me a bit.

On the other hand … yeah … it works. :p Must protect quaggans! And really, they’re so friendly and humble and don’t want to hurt anyone. They deserve some appreciation and protection from all the “foo” nasties out there.

My mentor may have been an older man, but despite the occasional joke about his age, Forgal was neither deaf nor senile. So my character and Trahearne instantly greeting each other and talking like old acquaintances before he (Forgal) even had a chance to open his mouth should have made it quite obvious that no introductions were needed. :p

It’s also hard to believe that despite all the time spent together on missions, our characters never told their mentors anything about themselves and their past. My sylvari guardian would definitely mention her Wyld Hunt, Caithe and Trahearne at the very least.

(A few culture- and story-dependent getting-to-know-you talks with the order mentor would rock.)

(Continued.)

2) There are too many disposable NPCs.

In every story arc, we meet one or more characters who play a pretty important and active story for that arc. And just when I start to like them … poof, the story ends and I don’t see them again (though I hear some come back much later). This is exacerbated by the fact that each story arc is really only very short. The charr have the advantage of the warband adding at least some continuity — though not enough. Where were my ‘bandmates during Sins of the Father and the Dragon Crystal story? Euryale was there, but even when she says that it’s good to see the whole warband fighting together in Dragon Crystal … there was just her and me. No Elexus. No Fyon. And at the same time, the charr story is perhaps the worst example of disposable NPC syndrome since you only get to exchange like three words with each member of your warband during the tutorial, maybe you even miss them in the excitement, and then you learn that they all died while you weren’t looking. And these are supposed to be the best and closest friends my character ever had, the center of her existence, her family! How are we supposed to feel the impact of what would be the greatest horror for any charr if it’s all just hi-bye-dead?

I can only guess that due to the branching story arcs and some further choices that can be made within them, it would have been a pain to carry over all these people. But I think it would add a lot to the game. If we’re meant to care about an NPC, if our characters are supposed to care, then we need the chance to spend more time with them.

3) Where’s the emotion?

So far, my characters have shown a rather disturbing lack of emotion in situations that should be highly emotional. Maybe they agree with what I said above and just didn’t have enough time to get attached to anyone. :p But snark aside … it’s really immersion-breaking. My whole warband just got wiped out except for myself and my closest buddy, and on top of that some POS and his new cronies are blaming me for it and treating me like dirt? I’d expect shock, grief, rage, something! Instead, my character reveals that she’s actually a Vulcan spy in disguise by showing about as much of a reaction as a rock. It’s as if her warband, her family, didn’t matter to her at all. Another example: my Vigil mentor-turned-partner-and-friend just gave a moving farewell speech and made a heroic last stand so I could lead a ragged handful of survivors of our doomed mission to safety. And what did my character do? Nothing. She didn’t even say goodbye. She didn’t even thank him. She said nothing. Nothing at all. Almorra and Trahearne showed more emotion, however briefly, than my Vulcan sylvari did.

Dictating a player character’s emotional reaction is dicey, I know that, and in a pen&paper game it’s one thing that a GM should never do. GW2 does a lot of dictating already, though — all the cutscene dialog is automatic, the Charm/Dignity/Ferocity options show up rarely and have little impact. So if you’re going to pre-define my character for me, please make sure to include strong reactions when it’s called for. Doing a constant Spock impression isn’t a “neutral” or “default” reaction, and it’s not credible.

All that may sound a bit negative, but really — I do enjoy the story for the most part and the lore as well! I just crave more depth, more distinctiveness and more of a chance to really “bond” with my NPC buddies. So please view this as praise by way of constructive criticism.

Very interesting thread! I’m particularly glad to see “official” replies.

BobbyStein.2315:

We’re in the process of analyzing the final version of the personal story, and looking at ways to improve the writing, voice acting, and overall presentation going forward. My team and/or I will likely be more involved in that regard.

Thanks for the compliments on the ambient and event dialogue. We worked hard on it.

It’s a well-earned compliment, I say.

And please look into the continuity issues that so many people have mentioned! I’m not that far into the story yet (my “main” has completed Battle for Claw Island), so I can’t comment on the whole thing, but by now I’m a bit afraid of continuing the story. Why? Because I fear having my enjoyment and immersion wrecked by having people I met and helped before treat me like a stranger, and seeing the earlier story arcs that I enjoyed so much get treated as if they never happened and never mattered.

I’m totally fine with “sharing the glory” and in fact much prefer it to being the only important and competent person in the whole bloody world, but continuity is utterly crucial for any story.

Anyway, my feedback to far:

1) More cultural storylines, please!

For the most part I really enjoy the initial parts of the story. They help to define and immerse myself in my characters’ culture, and that is exactly what I always wanted from a game that offers different species. Yes, some of the writing could be better and deeper. And yes, the “you’re such a special hero destined for greatness” song and dance gets really old (though GW2 isn’t even as guilty of it as some other games). But overall, during these acts of the story I really do feel as if my sylvari was a sylvari, my charr was a charr, etc., and that is great.

All that vanishes as soon as I join an order. There’s nothing whatsoever in any of the order-related missions I’ve done so far that made me feel like anything other than a generic, bland human-in-a-funny-suit. The distinct, defining, interesting aspects like the Dream and the Wyld Hunt, or the loyalty to my warband and Legion, are just gone. And that bites hard.

I understand one of the big themes of this game is putting aside differences for a greater goal or the world will die. That is great! But putting aside differences should not equal eradicating every recognizable cultural trait. What’s the point of crafting all these detailed cultures and backstories if it all goes away at level 30?

All in all, I’d much have preferred if the cultural storylines were the defining ones for the whole game, or at least for them to continue “on the side”.

(Split for length issues.)

There are two things that first made me interested in this game: a blog about designing the charr, especially the charr women, and one about designing the sylvari. So there was no question that I’d have at least one of each when I finally did decide to get this game.

While I don’t care at all for the naive/childlike tendency of some sylvari, many of their other traits are right up my alley. I’m a big fan of both tree-hugging, mystical bond-with-nature types, and duty-bound characters with a clear goal and purpose — the sylvari give me both. I also like the almost spiritual kinship between them as well as the Pale Tree as a sort of “Great Mother” figure. The fact that they’re sentient plants is a unique twist. Most of all, I love the fact they are not poisoned by toxic gender stereotypes. What bits you have and what bits the people you’re closest to have doesn’t matter to anyone. That’s how it should be!

I’m also a bit of a fan of Caithe — she’s easily my favourite among the Destiny’s Edge quintet (granted, that doesn’t mean much considering how most of the others spend their time being utter blockheads to each other), has a great voice and a good heart. She’s no naive kid but someone’s who’s been “tested” and tempted and suffered great loss, and that has left its mark, but it also means I’m happy to trust and respect her because she’s earned it.

Then there’s the huge range of options in character creation. Faces and hairstyles could use more diversity, and some of them look too much like plastic, but the sheer range of available colors alone is awesome and helps make each sylvari look much more distinct than the other species. I love how “alien” you can make them look, because that’s what they are.

Their special armor and weapons are also very unique and interesting, it’s just such a crying shame that there are only four armor sets, and only the T1 is any real option for any character under 80. So while most sylvari NPCs we meet look awesome and distinct in their special outfits, our characters are “born” dressed like a human and spend most of their time looking like that. I wish our starting outfits at least were culture-appropriate.

lunawisp.2378:

I think part of the problem, apart from the levelling aspect, is that in a personal story you’re being forced to take on large groups that most people probably wouldn’t attempt to solo out in the normal PvE world.

I think you nailed it. The game basically teaches us right off the bat that charging into half a dozen enemies is not a bright idea … then it throws twice that number at us in a story mission. It doesn’t make much sense.

My guardian has finished Battle of Claw Island as Vigil, and I have a warrior and elementalist who just joined the Vigil and Priory, respectively. Some of the missions have been a bit hairy, and some (like saving Mira on Claw Island) are just badly designed, but for the most part I had great fun and hadn’t yet hit a mission that made me swear at the screen.

Until last night. Defending the Keep as a charr helping the Vigil. One moment I was firing a cannon and thought things were decently under control. Then … BAM! Risen horde at six o’ clock. “Fall back!” yelled my Vigil contact, and boy I was falling back all right. The NPCs died in moments, including my poor warband-mate. And then there I was with over a dozen risen on my tail. Kiting? Forget it, they’re too fast. Sword & board for some defense? Dead. Longbow AoE? Dead. Stomp to give me breathing room and Signet of Stamina to cleanse the poison they inflict? That helped for all of three seconds. And every time I respawned, they all homed in on me again. The cooldowns on most defensive and utility abilities feel too long in general in this game, IMO, especially in a situation like that. I think I died three or four times, it was just frustrating. There wasn’t any real time to ponder changing weapons or skills either.

It was a rather mind-boggling immersion-breaker, yes. I hear it only gets worse further down the line, with characters you met and aided before acting as if you’re a complete stranger. If true, that is a colossal, unacceptable example of shoddy writing. Continuity is crucial.

I really love the beginnings of the personal story because it immerses me in a character’s culture. Things just feel a lot more “generic” after joining the orders. If you add continuity issues and your own kind and friends treating you like a generic human, it just kills the story.

Report it. There’s indeed supposed to be a brief cutscene-talk after you kill the devourer, and then you can finally fight Steelbane.

I actually yelled at the screen and choked up when Forgal made his choice and marched through that door. Took me a while to warm up to him, and I still vastly prefer the initial story-missions due to the way they show more of the characters’ culture which most games totally ignore in favor of treating everyone the same, but kitten … that was a good moment. But I don’t want him to come back. It’s a very fitting scene for him (can’t speak about the other order partners/mentors yet), and this sort of heroic gut-punch moments are just greatly cheapened if the person sacrificing themselves pops up a short while later like a jack-in-the-box.

Though yes, generally speaking, the “older mentor” character dying is very predictable and annoying.

What did bother me was the handling of the charr warband. We meet them so briefly during the tutorial that there’s no way to “bond” with them. As a result, their loss — which to our character is the single worst thing in the whole world — barely has an emotional impact. And my character sure acted as if it didn’t, which didn’t help.

I’ve only done “protect the spirits” and “passed out at the moot”, and I really enjoyed both. Together they were a very interesting contrast and summary of what norn are like. Not to mention that “passed out” cracked me up despite the fact that I never drink IRL.

And what really made me cheer is how in that story, our character freely admits to having screwed up and vows to fix it. Seriously, that alone is so rare. Usually our oh-so-incredibly-special-and-awesomely-godlike-Chosen-One-superheroes (and GW2 is otherwise guilty of singing that tired old tune, too) don’t make mistakes, much less have to own up to them. If anything bad happens, it’s someone else’s fault! And anyway we were soooo misunderstood and the others were just afraid and jealous of our ZOMG Specialness, so they deserved it. Yeah. Where’s my sarcastic eye-roll smilie?

That little bit in the “passed out” story had much more actual maturity in it than any ten would-be adult games full of boobs and gore, and I love the story for that.

There’s a similar topic over on the charr forum:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/races/charr/Jumping-Puzzles-as-a-Charr/

In tight spots like this, the erratic camera-jerking can make me motion-sick and also makes it very hard to see where I’m going, especially on my norn and charr. I don’t even want to think about taking those two through Troll’s End after suffering through it on my sylvari last night, thank you very much.

I can accept splatting myself when I misjudge a jump. I can also accept frustration when I fail to spot the proper route. But when the biggest obstacle is the camera, something is just wrong.

Schakal.6091:

I hate all the dances except the Charr and Sylvari ones. Cause they’re rather crappy modern-day stuff in a medieval-ish fantasy world. I realize it’s one of those things that every MMO needs to do these days. But what’s wrong with finding something more ethnic for the three races that instead got settled with immersion-breaking kitten?

Agreed on all counts. The norn dance is the worst in my book (actually, the asura one is about as bad, but I can’t stand the asura, so I care less about it). It’s just … sidestepping and flailing their arms about in a rather boneless fashion, looped ad nauseam with the occasional other move. At most I could see it as a “this the silly squirming they do when they’re drunk but not quite drunk off their feet yet” thing, but even that is a very unsatisfying explanation. It’s not a display of strength or skill, it lacks energy and it isn’t even funny. In short: there’s nothing in there that says “norn” to me.

I was never interested in GW1 nor GW2. Just not my thing, I thought. Then I read an awesome blog entry about designing the charr, and specifically the female charr. What was that, a “bestial” species done right? Female characters done right? I was hooked. There was still a lot about the game that I didn’t like (namely the design of most of the other playable women and their armor), but between the charr and later the sylvari, I was definitely interested. So there was never any doubt that my “mains” would be from those two species.

Seeing as how I normally loathe militaristic types and don’t like tech in my fantasy, it says a lot that I fell in love with the charr as much as I did. It’s not just the awesomely kickarse women, but also the general “feel” of them. And then there are the warbands. I like how the defining social structure isn’t nuclear family based on ZOMG Twoo Wuv (or forced marriages of convenience), but a “band of brothers and sisters” that is as close as it can get, that means the world to its members. I liked all the warband-mates from the tutorial, and I was very sad to learn that all but one of them die. Rebuilding the warband was fun, but I constantly wished for more banter with them, more missions with them. I don’t want to leave them behind when it’s time to pick an order!

(So Dinky is popular, eh? I picked Euryale and love her, but I want a second charr eventually to try a different Legion and warband-mate.)

Also, I agree with the poster who said that the charr use “proper” technology, and they’re good at it. I can respect that. Asura “cheat” by mixing it with magic, and they’re utterly intolerable in every way to boot.

The cattle ranching in Diessa Plateau showed another aspect of charr culture that I found rather charming and amusing. Well, aside from “Meatoberfest”. That name made me groan and roll my eyes something fierce. :p

What Jen said. It’s not “forced” or “blatant” in any way, nor “in your face” or “flaunted” or whatever other negative terms that some people like to use when they see something that they’re not used to, or actively despise. Plus, we notice and remember the unusual, and many prefer the familiar.

And, yes, there are many very obvious hetero couples, among the sylvari and elsewhere.

I did Troll’s End last night on my sylvari guardian “main”. She’s just shy of maximum height and has the heaviest possible build, but she’s still a twig compared to a healthy norn or charr. And even so, the camera’s erratic spasms made me so motion-sick that I had to take a break for fear of throwing up. Of course, the motion sickness caused my jumping skills to suffer, which meant more time spent inside that puzzle … and more motion sickness. Not fun at all. I have no intention to even try this with my charrior.

In another puzzle in Diessa Plateau, the one with all the ghosts, there was a point at which I couldn’t see anything because a wooden beam above my charr’s head would slam the camera into her face.

Camera behavior in tight spaces really needs to be fixed. If the biggest challenge in a jumping puzzle is not timing, patience or a keen eye, but getting the camera to give you a good, steady view, something is badly wrong.