Guild Wars 2

If you’re good at jumpng puzzles, you can get a nice daily haul simply by doing:
- all 4 in caledon forest (morgan’s, dark reverie, spelunker’s, spekk’s lab)
- demongrub in queensdsle
- urmaug and weyandt in LA

Of course there are many more chests out there, but these for me give the best effort/reward ratio and can all be done within a very short time. With enough practice, you can run through morgan+reverie in no time, only one or two jumps to take care with.

Phase retreat almost got me killed just now in enemy borderlands just over bridge from south camp.

Downed a mes, went in for the stomp – cc engi comes to save with knockbacks etc, try again for stomp with f4, can’t get it – taking too much damage so phase retreat out… stupid thing gets stuck on the ground, so I’m a sitting duck taking hits. Have to waste a weapon swap and blurred frenzy cooldown to get free (I don’t have quick binds for emotes) => also lose chance of immediately bursting the engi. Somehow survived with a fraction of health, but the fact remains if not for phase retreat getting stuck things could have gone the othere way (managed to burst engi down to <20% before making a run for it).

Can’t wait till all these teleport bugs get fixed.

I have noticed sometimes they just sit there not doing anything (against structures), but I can’t be specific about it.

Edit: I should be clear – the iwarlock.

I can’t comment on tpvp because I don’t play it, so can only comment purely from a fighting perspective.

Is it targeting then that you’re struggling with? Even with the stealth, autotarget (and promote target) locks back onto them instantly on reappearing. If more than one enemy, it’s simply a case of hitting next target to switch to the other one (unless mesmer).

I do use combat mode – with a lot of settings both there and in game modified to allow it to function well with normal targeting and camera panning, which allows me the luxury of easily flicking around the camera so players trying to constantly go behind me and be sneaky will have a hard time. Just for the record this is not an “unfair advantage” given there are also disadvantages for using it (about face doesn’t work, have to constantly toggle on and off to ground target skills, freelook is much more awkward to use, and so on).

Vash.1920:

<snip>

Reading some of the comments are making me goosbumps so I´m really thinkin about trans to an american server to change some of your guys mind. This is also the moment i need to quit following this thread or i fear i could get angry and unfair. Those who are intrested in shatter feel free to contact me for advice tutorials or whatever u want. After 2hours of tactical training with me u can decide by yourself what u believe – the forum or the alternative way. Those who pretend shatter is not viable and stupid okay – in this case it should be no problem if there would run more shatter mesmers against u soon.

But always play the build u have fun with as long it comes from your own decision.

No need to get stressed about it – there’s a lot of people here in support of the playstyle, so your continued input is welcome.

Godmoney.2048:

People think they need GS for shatter builds?

I didn’t even use GS for the first 8 months of this game. Staff has always been my go to weapon for shatter builds until fairly recently. In WvW i prefer GS lately but in Spvp I want my staff because of the claustrophobic nature of Spvp.

Shatter is viable with GS, Staff, Scepter, Pistol, Focus, Torch.

Indeed, that’s one of the positive features – any weapon works, which is nice because if you get bored of one weapon it’s easy to swap in another weapon without having to touch traits or gear.

Lots of interesting ideas coming out.
I like the knockback suggestions on some sort of AoE counter.

So many ways this could go, I think the situation is clear and one I hope Anet does something about in the next year or two – add alternative, swappable #1 to #5 skills for all weapons.

runeblade.7514:

Add a Block to replace staff 4 is just too OP on a mesmer. Staff already provides tons of sustain with a 6 second teleport alone.

Staff 4 is useful to me and doesn’t need change.

Depends what kind of block – blocking a single hit within a 2s window would not be overpowered, compared to mimic tanking everything for 4 seconds.

Dawdler.8521:

Xyonon.3987:

So many good and easy and minor changes

Easy? Ha! No, everything is too easy for Anet. That’s why nothing ever happen.

Just imagine the time it would take to add a secondary push to shield which make it detonate just like the torch prestige blast and apply 4s of protection on 5 peeps at 600 range (just grabbing something out of the blue, it could be apply torment too or something). 5 minutes? 10? Maybe even 20?!?!

Nope, too easy.

Anet will probably remake it to summon an Elder Phantasm dragon that has bugged AI and take 6 months to animate because they have to find a dragon to motion capture first (current dragons wont do, they’re only fixed pieces).

:D Made my day.

Interesting, I’d never noticed that either.

Will have to see with asura if there are different animations. Do they occur in specific situations?

Continued:
On the other hand defending while attacking is easy – however attacking itself will require good offensive positioning (offensive use of phase retreat for example) and use of shatters/utilities. The good thing is with staff you always have a way out through phase retreat, or #4 and #5 if they are up. It is helpful to use clones to block LoS especially when using staff.

The nature of chaos armour (which you will be using often) also means that it pays to get hit – seems illogical if running glassy gear, so (and this is only my opinion) staff works better if you bulk up a little toughness.

For me, I can still maintain enough attack pressure and soften up enemies using the staff while having superior options for evading and escaping, and still be able to shatter burst (in either weapon set).
Also on a purely subjective note – there is nothing more graceful than dodge shattering overhead in staff followed by phase retreat away from an opponent. Like walking on air.

Edit: I forgot to add – GS also rewards taking the initiative, using skills without waiting for your enemy to do something. Staff is more reactive – using skills in response to enemy actions. You can do the opposite with each, but it requires more effort/skill.

Of course, what Osicat is saying is absolutely right – having PU is optimal in the current state of the game, in terms of being easier to access, have better chance of engaging/disengaging any fight and staying alive in situations where you would be flattened when using another build, while still being able to dish out the damage.

With shatter you would have to work much harder to achieve the same results, especially to disengage when being overcome by an unbeatable group. 1200 blink, stealths, portals, phase retreat, temporal curtain, speed runes… would require creative use of different mechanics to stay alive. Bear in mind you would likely have much lower toughness as well (unless traiting 10 or 20 in chaos with enough cavalier/soldier/knight in there).

Weapon choice is entirely up to you.

I agree with Vashury that sword + torch in the off set is an amazing combination and one I now always run – the only exception would be a pure phantasm build (which I never play), where you’d want two offensive phantasms. Otherwise the prestige is just a fantastic skill, that scales well regardless of enemy number, whether traited or not.

As for staff vs GS, well this is entirely subjective.

I need to preface why I choose staff by saying combat for me revolves around the interchange between offence and defence (yin/yang or whatever you like), with control and supporting effects being used either offensively or defensively. Quite simplistic but I can’t think of another way to express my point at the moment.
The ebb and flow will be building up for the burst, and then winding back, parrying attacks while skills recharge. Of course this doesn’t happen in a nice regular pattern, but is erratic and complex, with things changing all the time.

The key is that within any good offence there should be defence, and the same the other way around.
Full offence without defence would be a situation where you are with a large group of people chasing down one or two players with nothing else around – nothing to defend against.
Full defence without any offence is literally when you’re running for your life from a large group – no intent to pressure or burst any enemies.

In a “normal situation” though, you want to be defending while attacking – obvious example in one skill is blurred frenzy. You’re pressuring the opponent(s) with damage while doing your best to avoid/minimise damage taken. Anything can be used this way – offensive positioning, stealth, pulls, interrupts.
Likewise when you’ve used up your burst and need to sit back while waiting for skills to come off cooldown, it pays to still pressure the opponent while playing defensively.

Why did I say all that?
Well the offence part of the GS is quite clear – every skill is geared towards it.
The defence part is harder to see, and also to use – you have iwave for the knockback and izerker for the cripple. The only other way to defend is through positioning and use of distance. Put simply, GS rewards:
- aggressive play
- good use of distance and positioning

As such the gameplay style will require lots of moving with the camera panned, and running in and out of combat (meaning closing distance with the enemy and moving away to create distance).
#1, #4 and #2 make it easy to maintain some attack while going on the defensive (having created distance between you and the enemy).
Defending while attacking boils down to dealing so much damage and overwhelming the enemy that they are more concerned about surviving than trying to damage you, use of control effects like iWave and use of other skills (shatter skills, utilities, etc). This is difficult against opponents with good sustain, and harder to ration your skill use.

Staff on the other hand is almost the opposite and has many built in defensive skills, with one (phase retreat) on a low cooldown. With illusionary elasticity it is easy to continue to pressure an opponent when you have used your burst and are moving into the defensive rhythm. Without elasticity, attacking while defending is much harder and you suffer from not being able to pressure the opponent enough such that they could charge in and overwhelm you – you would have to use other skills (shatters/utilities) to make up for this.

Yeah, it’s a close call for 3rd place between engi, necro and mesmer.

It makes sense that thief is after those three in 6th place, with warrior and guardian at the bottom.

I think it ended up reasonably accurate.

I’ll be honest, I don’t really care much about the overall battle and score.

I play for personal satisfaction, meeting skilled players, and having good fights, be it small scale, duelling or large battles, not constrained by the mind numbing conquest mode in pvp.

In terms of which server is beating which – doesn’t bother me

Doctor Strange.5420:

Just got my ascended revolver… This warranted a photoshoot : P

Badkitten pose.

Dawdler.8521:

Just play a couple of rounds of each. Its not like its hard to change specs in PvP.

Yep – play and change regularly till you settle on something you like. Anything can work in casual hothoin, so it depends on what you enjoy most – phantasms, condition, shatter…

Another benefit – you’ll get nice complements for playing shatter from enemies.

Just had a few duels on eotm with a good engi from gandara, which I doubt I would have been invited to party had i been running another build.

Hmm, good point with all those ethereal fields, maybe it could be ok.

Would be good to.make the blast active, or on the “mimic” bubble taking a set amount of damage.

I do prestige into chaos storm quite a lot and find it an easy enough combo to set off.

Welcome.

Don’t read too much into the negative stuff here – best to play and enjoy the game and find out things yourself.

Regarding camera – you can use the promote skill target in the options menu – that together with autotargeting, and binding select nearest/next/previous enemy plus call/take target to comfortable keys will make life a lot easier.

Aerathnor.8305:

<snip>

Pistol 3 (Displace)- Fire a shot that marks your target. Second activation you and the marked target swap positions, target gains immob and a clone is produced in your original position.

Ok that is fantastic – where should I send the gold?

Nice thread with those new weapon ideas.

I like anything for staff #4 that is some sort of timed block, or reflect with potential AoE damage and/or boon/condition sharing – rewards you for using it at the right time.

Xaylin.1860:

<snip>

Hmm, I’m not sure blast finisher – that could be too powerful with #5.

Would it? From a solo perspective nothing really changes. However, you could now blast your Chaos Storm to grant your party some Chaos Armor, too. Or just blast other fields. Assuming a similar cooldown to its current state it should not be too powerful.

Only because you have then two ways of getting it through combo fields, plus the skill itself giving you chaos armour – maybe it could work but personally I feel it is too much.

Carpboy.7145:

Hammer. With a phantasm that does earthshaker every 10ish seconds

I so want a 2h hammer.

Playing cards also sound amazing, but thinking perhaps could simply be a skin for MH and OH focus?

Yeah I’d take it.

Deathmatch = yes.

2v2 point capture = no way, so boring.
3v3 could be with point capture, but would still prefer deathmatch.

selan.8354:

Alissah.9281:

selan.8354:

Curunen.8729:

selan.8354:

Curunen.8729:

Alissah.9281:

Curunen.8729:

As much as I’d love mesmer to be the focus, I can’t in good conscience put it above ranger or ele at the moment.

Here, drink this water, then go to the cdi thread again.

• gives a scentless, tasteless and colourless liquid containing 95% alcohol *

Now I’m too busy dying on the floor.

Thedenofsin.7340:

Then go back and move Mesmer to #1 slot. That’s the slot that will receive attention first.

What’s a mesmer? hic

lol no dont get drunk because u will accidently move the warrior to the first spot

Someone already did… I’m not joking – look in the thread.

(To be fair they said “balance”, not buff)

yeah i think ill just give up hoping for mesmer to be reworked….tired of veil. can we vote to have veil,tw and portal removed? so maybe we can get aoe for the mesmer. im sooooooo tired of veil! i really hate veil…i think i even hear people scream veil in my dreams thats how often i have to serve as a veilbot..XD
hmmm i think i might need a shot now.cheeers!

When a dream extra asks me to veil them -for whatever reason- I put a veil on them that stealths them infinte seconds, and turns of collision, and mute them.

Basically, theyre gone :P

yup veiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiil

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tX6-gZw2tog

Ok, that’s brilliant.

Edit: I’d follow him.

Alissah.9281:

Whenever I use chaos storm, i automatically press chaos armor aswell, so 45 instead of just 5 :/.

Maybe it could be some sort of block that lasts a few seconds, but doesnt have a cast time (so you can do other stuff during it). When you block an attack, you make a blast finisher at your location, and grant retaliation and confusion.

Btw, we should make a thread that is a list of all our good skill/trait ideas and changes, so its easier to mention them when if we get dev attention. Even if we dont, it will still be fun, kinda :o

Hmm, I’m not sure blast finisher – that could be too powerful with #5.

Could be without a channel – but I’ll be honest, I love the visual effect of Mimic which is what I’m basing it on – the channel is part of the charm.

I’ll be sure to bring this up if/when we get some thread for suggesting changes/additions.

Thedenofsin.7340:

Curunen.8729:

selan.8354:

Curunen.8729:

Alissah.9281:

Curunen.8729:

As much as I’d love mesmer to be the focus, I can’t in good conscience put it above ranger or ele at the moment.

Here, drink this water, then go to the cdi thread again.

• gives a scentless, tasteless and colourless liquid containing 95% alcohol *

Now I’m too busy dying on the floor.

Thedenofsin.7340:

Then go back and move Mesmer to #1 slot. That’s the slot that will receive attention first.

What’s a mesmer? hic

lol no dont get drunk because u will accidently move the warrior to the first spot

Someone already did… I’m not joking – look in the thread.

(To be fair they said “balance”, not buff)

To be fair, they said “most help”, not “balance”.

Which “they” are you talking about – Anet or that poster?

selan.8354:

Curunen.8729:

Alissah.9281:

Curunen.8729:

As much as I’d love mesmer to be the focus, I can’t in good conscience put it above ranger or ele at the moment.

Here, drink this water, then go to the cdi thread again.

• gives a scentless, tasteless and colourless liquid containing 95% alcohol *

Now I’m too busy dying on the floor.

Thedenofsin.7340:

Then go back and move Mesmer to #1 slot. That’s the slot that will receive attention first.

What’s a mesmer? hic

lol no dont get drunk because u will accidently move the warrior to the first spot

Someone already did… I’m not joking – look in the thread.

(To be fair they said “balance”, not buff)

Alissah.9281:

Curunen.8729:

As much as I’d love mesmer to be the focus, I can’t in good conscience put it above ranger or ele at the moment.

Here, drink this water, then go to the cdi thread again.

• gives a scentless, tasteless and colourless liquid containing 95% alcohol *

Now I’m too busy dying on the floor.

Thedenofsin.7340:

Then go back and move Mesmer to #1 slot. That’s the slot that will receive attention first.

What’s a mesmer? hic

snow.8097:

guys ist about Balance, not only buffs=P

1) Warrior (too much of everything, slight corrections and i think he is balanced)
2) PU Mesmer ( defensive of enorm condi dmg and dmg of phantasms is too much)
3) Ranger ( Ranger is not as bad as everyone thinks, just some synergy between skills, effects and traits would be cool )

OP says “needs the most help” => sounds like buff rather than balance to me.

As much as I’d love mesmer to be the focus, I can’t in good conscience put it above ranger or ele at the moment.

1. Ranger
2. Ele
3. Mesmer

(4. Thief, 5. Necro 6. Engi, 7. Guard, 8. Warrior)

runeblade.7514:

Even if it is bland to you, it is very useful to the mesmer.

I know, that’s what I said.

I’ll start off by saying staff is a great weapon and I have no problem with any of the skills in practice.

This thread is purely subjective, in that staff #4 is quite bland to take up one whole skill on a weapon, given it’s readily accessible through combo fields. To me that is quite unimaginitive.

I would prefer it to be replaced with something like:
2s channeled block (similar to icounter/iriposte) using the Mimic visual effect.
On blocking an attack blasts out for AoE damage in the forward cone – max 3 targets, ~90 degree spread?

Just throwing that out there, I’m sure there could be better skills thought of.

I know there will be a lot of people who swear by it and that’s perfectly fine – like I said, there’s nothing wrong with it’s effectiveness, only it’s uniqueness.

Maybe when/if we get alternate #1 to #5 weapons skills we could swap it out? I would almost certainly swap it in a heartbeat if we get other skills to choose from.

But, but… I don’t want people to hate me – I want to give hugs after a fight!

:p

Syryn.7591:

That’s the thing about Trahearne though, he does seem wooden and dull but I don’t think it’s because he wasn’t meant to. If you read about the Sylvari especially the secondborn one Cadeyrn (you know that one that founded the Nightmare Court) there’s an instance where when talking about what the Asura did to Malomedies, Trahearne is reacting in the same way that Cadeyrn is. Which speaks volumes to what Trahearne’s true character is like, I don’t think he much enjoys his Wyld Hunt to be quite honest but that’s just my opinion.

Just read through this: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dream_and_Nightmare

And to quote the part in question:

Cadeyrn glanced at Trahearne, whose expression was as black as his own. No soldier would say such things. No one who had ever lifted a blade to stop oppression, or placed themselves in danger to free innocents, would say that revenge was unfitting. If Faolain and Caithe were here, they would argue his side, he was sure of it.

Abruptly, Trahearne looked up toward the spreading boughs. “Yes, Mother,” he answered a whisper only he could hear. Chagrined, the necromancer unclenched his fists. “The Pale Tree says we need to concentrate on our true enemy: the dragons. Every ally will be needed.” Gritting his teeth, Trahearne finished, “We make peace with the asura.”

I mean that doesn’t seem like the Trahearne in our personal story at all.

Thank you for linking that, I haven’t read it before and now have a new respect for Trahearne.

In the game he comes across as a sombre contemplative character – this I do like and can get from his voice, but too often his voice breaks across into completely wooden and unfitting (unrealistic) which makes him completely unbelievable.

I’m not sure now what he should be like – tbh I wouldn’t mind if they hired a new VA for him and put him more in line with that dialogue linked above.

cheshirefox.7026:

the only people who didn’t like trahearne were the “i want My player to ascend to godliness and be The hero.” i’ll admit, his character in game seems like a bit of a push over which is Not how his character was written.. same deal with Marjory, well written character with Amazing concept art… not even believable as a person in game

tldr, trahearne isn’t asuran.. he’s not just going to conveniently, accidentally blow himself up anytime soon

Have to disagree with this.

Ok, that could be the reason many players dislike Trahearne, but not for me. I like that Trahearne is the leader of the pact and my character did all they could to support him. I like that my character is not the “star” of the show, but rather one of a group of characters all supporting each other with a common interest.

Why I don’t like Trahearne – 90% because of his terrible voice. Dull, uninspiring, unbelievable, wooden… I won’t go on. The other 10% would be for some of his dialogue and how he was shoehorned into the personal story – makes sense for sylvari as they’ve met him before but for other races is a bit jarring.
Then the biggest annoyance – he should have sacrificed himself on Claw Island instead of Sieran, but that’s just a pet peeve of mine.

Yeah, been having it too recently, sometimes unplayable.

Also have had horrible frame rate drops on exiting eotm and entering any other map (ie, 60 down to 10), which only fixes itself with restarting the game.

But also getting a lot of good play time with little lag.

hihey.1075:

Shatter is the funniest way to play mesmer. It’s viable, and I’d say that once you master the technique, you will become a really good player. Until then, be prepared to rage at thieves, PU mesmers and Engis.
The best fights you can have as a Shatter mesmer are against Necros, Warriors and Guardians IMHO.

Regarding warriors, I dunno – there are some pretty dangerous warrior players out there who can just shrug off your damage and make you run. L2P issue maybe, but although I can beat a lot of warriors, some builds played by highly skilled players are pretty scary.

The most fun fights for me are vs good thieves or mesmers, even PU traited.

Heh, not quite the montage I was hoping for, but still some funny pulls/knockbacks in there.

Been hard to find opponents tonight (and yesterday come to think of it) – ran around both enemy borderlands and could count the number of fights (1v1, 1v2) on one hand. Didn’t see a single enemy zerg.

EB had a few more, but eotm was equally hard to find players to fight – surprisingly empty in a few instances with our side dominating – I guess some instances are unbalanced in population?

Pretty boring, I know it’s a weekday night but would expect more people even so.

Flissy.4093:

Curunen.8729:

Yeah it’s weird still no valkyrie on there.

I’m just waiting for assassin’s ascended trinkets.

Why? Assassin’s will become a waste of time in the next balance patch with ferocity changes.

Why would it become useless, any more than anything else with crit damage?

I have numbers in mind for a build – simply swapping in one assassin’s ring or amulet in place of berserkers would meet my crit chance and power requirements.

Doggie.3184:

I liked the little story mode. Also yay for bringing up that I’m in the Priory~ now if only they’d make Order choices show off more/be more important. I love the Priory.

Yeah, agreed. I’ve not followed the LS much, but recently I find myself enjoying the content and dialogue between characters.
The priory bit was a nice touch.

Yeah it’s weird still no valkyrie on there.

I’m just waiting for assassin’s ascended trinkets.

I can’t stand the normal thief’s dodge sound effect – asura dodge is so much better.

As long as it is optional, then yeah this would be a cool idea.

Nick.6972:

Stack and spam all the attacks = PvE in a nutshell.

Indeed.

PvE isn’t so much challenging as it is tedious – there’s no satisfaction for beating anything.

One thing I noticed that might be strange but I find to be a welcome change is the introduction of downed state for certain PvE mobs now – those npcs in the marionette lanes having downed state for example – just this simple thing makes fighting npcs more fun.

Granted, PvE bosses can be very challenging without a group, but still no satisfaction even if soloing a champion because you just chip away at those ridiculously large health pools while at risk of being one shotted if you put a foot wrong.

For me the order of fun goes:
PvE bosses < open world npcs < npcs with downed state < other players

It’s strange how much the downed state and stomping add to my enjoyment of combat. Those npc class characters in HotM are more fun to fight than 99% of other PvE encounters inthe game. If they could use that template but make them more deadly – use different attacks and increase in damage, but still be like a “player”, then that would be the most challenging and fun PvE combat.

Until then, the only thing that is both challenging and satisfying at the same time is fighting other players, until we can get npcs that fight like players and can be stomped.

easyface.8064:

Ye shatter is still viable, for starters sometimes frustrating but also really exciting. Just pick a build that makes the most fun, in the end that’s all that matters

Exactly.

Most fun builds can be viable in a number of situations. Some might have more hardcounters than others, some might be optimal for the current meta (ie power/condition PU), but ultimately you can make most core builds work with enough effort and dedication to the build. Just got to tweak tactics of dealing with different classes as they get buffed/nerfed.

Short answer = yes.

Wyrden.4713:

Alissah.9281:

Curunen.8729:

1. Run away tactical retreat

dis!

But, I thought “retreat” meant “attack” – at least that’s what guardians have told me. Never surrender!

;)

Regarding the build, picking up greatsword again is hard when not having used it for an age – such a different rhythm when used to staff or scepter/sword/focus in the off set. I tried 10/20/10, but actually prefer 10/30 with staff and blink range.

Advent.6193:

Curunen.8729:

Heh, funny you should say that. My noob launch character in spvp was a quad pistol thief – ini gain on weapon swap, kind of like reloading for familiarity from shooters, using clerics amulet in pvp with full acrobatics.

Was… different… to say the least! :p

Heh. I know it, because I run it. My Thief’s spent the majority of her existence as a zero-stealth Gunslinger. It’s a tricky style to work with, but … sooooo FUN.
(You know you run Acro and Guns too much, when your guildies invite you to a dungeon, convince you to swap to a Stealth build … and you feel unclean.)

Yeah, it’s pretty exhilerating – if only you could use unload while mid dodge, that would be hilarious.

Edit: I forgot, signet of malice as well.

Advent.6193:

<snip>

• P/P stealthless Thief. You’re running the “worst” weaponset for the class, that lacks in-built mobility or stealth access. In addition, 900 range is problematic, when standard “range attacks” are 1200. You’ve also got crap for defensive Boons, one means of Stability, low condi-clearing … and the crappiest tier of Health in game.

Heh, funny you should say that. My noob launch character in spvp was a quad pistol thief – ini gain on weapon swap, kind of like reloading for familiarity from shooters, using clerics amulet in pvp with full acrobatics.

Was… different… to say the least! :p

Me Games Ma.8426:

Try to set Character Limit and Quality to the highest possible. That should fix it.

Yeah, this must be it, thanks – I turned it down because of crazy framerate drops in eotm, so will change and see what happens.

Ah, thanks will try that – I did turn it down to help with the low framerates on eotm, so this must be down to that.