He was saying it was kitten. Er, kitten. I mean kitten. Oh kitten what the kitten, nvm.
My guild runs a typical guardian/necro/ele/war melee train. Nothing fancy, just in your face fighting. I tried to come up with a spec to stay on pin, but realized quickly that the other 4 classes can do everything better, and I wouldn’t like playing the engineer that way. So instead, when I do run my engy, I focus on long ranged cc/conditions, and backline healing/buffing/protection for my ranged dps classes, and lastly mopping up single down enemies. With the way my guild runs though, we ususally don’t have a ton of ranged dps. Thus, usually I just bring my power necro for melee train dps, and break out the engy when the havoc group needs another. I do think the engineer is the best class in the game, and my favorite to play. However, in my guild’s big group play, I’m more of an asset on my necro. With condition nerfs incoming, I doubt the situation will improve much.
Perplexity until they “fix” them. Keep farming the nobles while you play w/the perplexity runes. I’ve thought about the noble runes if/when they nerf perplexity. I run a 30/10/0/20/10 kit build with a sigil of battle. With fire bomb + blast finisher combos and the sigil I can already stack 9 stacks right off the bat. That rune would give me 60% might duration and another method of might. O_o
I play a well and mark Necro am have no problem with retal. I think people should spend a little more time on their builds and play style rather than nerf another part of the game.
That said if I were going to suggest doing anything it would be give it a 60% or 70% chance of landing.
I also have a faceroll frontline power necro. Taking a couple thousand retaliation damage is nothing when I’m putting out aoe damage for 10x that amount. The problem is with the mechanics of fast hitting aoe attacks like engineer grenades. They can hit up to 15 people. So on my engy, with 1 autoattack, I may hit 15 people. Each one takes around 200 damage (condition specced). In return, the engineer takes around 4k damage. At what point would anyone ever use an ability that hits himself for 20x the damage of any one target. Never, that’s when. Yet, the whole point of the kit is ranged aoe damage. Maybe if the sigil of earth worked in aoe then it might be worth it to spread bleeding to large groups. But, like all over offensive procs, it’s subject to an icd. Thus only the first person to get crit on gets the bleed. Yet, retaliation has no icd. I would like to see the mechanic tweaked so more classes would be viable in big group play.
BTW, as you suggested, I adjusted my engineer’s play style. I benched him in big group play to run my easy mode necro to supplement the 10 guardians.
(edited by Dasboba.1652)
Sames been happening to me all day with other items that sell for 7g+. I logged with items worth more than 30 gold listed. When I returned, I got 18g from the tp and the rest of my items show up as sold, but I didn’t receive the money.
Jonathan Sharp had something interesting to say in the warrior forums….
I’m pretty certain they’re just hoping engineers switch classes so they don’t have to deal with us anymore.
Nope, quite the opposite really. The guild I’m in knows the meta and runs a heavy guardian squad doing exactly as you said. Engineer is not a class that does well in that meta, so I usually run mine in small man havoc. Even when I do run mine, I’ve don’t die because I barely use grenades in those situations. The point is it’s silly that an entire kit can be negated by a passive debuff in a situation that the kit actually was designed for.
Rabid+Dire. I have all rabid and just made dire weapons. With a 30/10/0/20/10 spec, I now have ~20k hps, 2700 armor, 35% crit chance, 1500 base condition dmg (but usually have stacks of might/corruption and can easily push 2k condi dmg), and 70% condi duration.
These runes are over the top atm, but I find it hilarious that people are complaining about the least played class in the game. Before the patch the engineer had 2 damage weapons to choose from. What this rune did was turn the shield into an offensive rather than purely defensive weapon. They should limit the stacks rather than put an icd. If they keep adding icd’s to offensive procs, then I want icd on retaliation so I don’t get hit with 10 stacks every time I throw a grenade.
Anyone defending the current implementation of retaliation has obviously never played a grenade engineer. It’s so easy in big group play to have perma retaliation especially in the current meta. The grenade kit’s sole purpose in the game is to provide ranged aoe damage. Yet that is impossible when a defensive perma buff out damages the actual offensive kit. Retaliation ticks hit the engineer for more damage that the grenades put out. That’s a broken mechanic. Barrage is a pure 8 grenade aoe, meant specifically for aoe damage. Yet it theoretically has the chance to hit the engineer for 40 yes 40 ticks of retaliation if tossed into a zerg. That’s over 10k dmg for 1 throw. Every offesive proc in this game is subject to some icd. All on-crit procs have been given cooldowns preventing them from hitting more than 1 person. On-crit heal procs have also been nerfed with icd’s. Yet, a passive defensive proc, which every large group has via guardians, has never been subject to the same treatment. In small play, the buff is great because it punishes people for not paying attention. I honestly don’t know what the solutions is. I favor a damage percentage (30-50%) so that it punishes people equally across the board, but then we’d hear of people getting hit for thousands by retaliation. I guess the best bet is to just leave it as it is since it seems anet doesn’t care what engineers think anyway, since such a low percentage of people play them.
Just don’t fire it into a zerg! ;D
I wish I could get rid of that stupid SAB message, and have the invasion message instead. I hate knowing that I’ll have clutter on my screen for a month telling me to visit some stupid minecraft/mario looking instance. At least the invasion messages told me something new each hour.
Look at the bright side, you can take off a month and you’re engineer will be the same when you get back. All the other classes will have grinded their ascended weapons by the time you get back and will be more powerful. But, rest easy knowing that all the engineers will still be sitting here exactly the same since our kits are unaffected by weapon damage. Turrets will still be bugged all to hell, and we’ll still be killing ourselves with our own grenades since retaliation does more damage to us than our grenades do to our enemies. As for living world, idk what to tell you, I don’t mess with it now that I’ve gotten my 6k achievement points.
I’ve run similar builds in the same situation. I tend to favor the focus for use with the reflect traits and the ability to pull enemies. I’ve also noticed that you have veil and mass invis. Instead of 0/0/20/20/30, you could also try 0/0/30/20/20 and grab prismatic understanding. It’s really nice on those pushes that start with veil. You will pick up multiple defensive boons to help you stay alive in that initial push.
Kits currently have an “exotic equivalent” value, so just set it to that if your rifle/pistol is exotic and do the same for other rarities – no need to base it off the damage values.
I imagine that’s what they were testing when the patch went live, but didn’t have it quite worked out. Yet, they’d forgotten to return the damage levels back to what they were before pushing out the patch.
“you don’t need ascended to play the game if you’re a pve nerd”
-fixed
Isn’t Rune of Speed in pvp? You could possibly use that. Though, I think the 6/6 is bugged atm.
I would argue the easy answer is the reduction in stacks/duration not an icd. ICD makes the rune single target only which defeats the purpose of aoe interupts. It already annoys me that half the sigils in this game only hit 1 person on crits when I’m using aoe abilities. I’d still probably use them w/an icd though as long as it wasn’t something crazy like 20s.
I have both classes at level 80. I know how necros work, so when I’m on my engy (condi p/s kits), I don’t even try to fight them. I have to play my kitten off to keep on par with even a mediocre condi necro. If the guy is good, I don’t stand a chance. They’re typically pretty slow, so normally I just leave them be and out run them. If I do have to engage, I try to stay as far away as possible and use the 1500 range of my nades to my advantage. Usually it’s still to just get chill grenades down so I can run, lol.
If you haven’t figured it out by now, I’ll let you in on a secret. Anet doesn’t want you playing alts. They want to lock you into 1 character with one specific build so you can be like everyone else.
I also just confirmed this. No movement speed buff is given when all 6 runes are equipped.
I’m sure they’ll add it later, but only put 12% on the weapons. Then we’ll rage when we only get 24% from 2 weapons and cap out at 99%. O_o
They’ll never change anything so don’t get your hopes up. On the bright side, we won’t need to grind stupid ascended weapons. On the down side, everyone else will slowly get more powerful and we’ll stay the same. That’ll be a while though. My mesmer alone needs like 5 or 6 weapons. :/
Wow, I’m just shaking my head atm. They really don’t want us playing alts do they?
It’s here for pve nerds. They tend to always need a carrot to chase. I just wish they’d leave it out of wvw. Every game does this though. DAoC was nearly perfect until they added the ToA expansion pack and ruined that game. WoW was pretty fun at the very beginning, the you had to raid to stay competitive. That’s when I quit b/c I’d learned my lesson in DAoC. It’s a shame really. I absolutely loved that it was rather easy to gear up new characters in this game. I have 4 80s each with multiple sets of armor and I love the fact that I can play different roles depending on my mood. My mesmer alone has 3 swords, 3 staves, 2 gs, 2 focus, a scepter, a pistol, and 3 sets of armor. In any given night when I play my mesmer, I may use 4 or 5 of those weapons. Can you imagine how long it would take to upgrade all of those? It’s been hard enough to get 3/6 ascended trinkets on all of my classes.
This runeset alone, in itself, already gives Confusion 30% extra duration. So 10sec duration becomes 13seconds. It takes very little effort to push that to 17 or 20sec duration.
Just to clarify, the 30% duration on the rune is bugged and doesn’t work at the moment. That said, my engy has 70% duration, so even w/the broken rune my confusions from this rune last 17s if they’re not cleared (or dead, lol). The most this rune should be is 5s duration like most other profession based confusions in the game. Reducing the stacks and the duration would go a long way in balancing this rune. Oh, and fix the 30% duration!
Agreed, I can keep it up longer now with the rune. I run a p/s kit build, and it’s pretty dirty. My shield interupts are on long cooldowns, but before the rune they were defensive abilities. Now, it’s possible to use them offensively, which I’m pretty sure wasn’t anet’s intent w/engy shield. If you cleanse those, I can’t really stack them back on immediately unless I’m also running a bomb kit. I think alot of engineers are using their interupts to stack 15+ stacks up front. Then, once cleansed, they can do the normal confusion bomb (toolkit pull into 3, bomb 3, swap to pistol 3). I like the mechanic but think 5 stacks for 10s is way too much. I don’t want to see an icd b/c it would lose its aoe functionality. I’d rather see 2-3 stacks for 5s, or do away with the interupt mechanic and add x% to confusion damage.
As long as they fix the 30% duration, I couldn’t care less what they do with the 6/6. I can already stack enough confusion on my engy.
Maybe if parties actually split up a little bit they could self buff each other instead of all standing in a blob of 30 people on pin hoping everyone gets the buff. I know that’s not feasible since they have to stay blobbed to make sure they don’t all get hit by aoe. I’m sure people want to buff their parties first so long as each party has a guardian, ele, and necro. Wait, this game doesn’t have a trinity!
The perplexity runes whine threads are that way ====>
There’s way too much incentive for staying blobbed up in this game. With so much retaliation and stability being thrown around, why play ranged at all. It’s way too easy to stack perma retaliation. Every zerg is now running with so many guardians that it’s nearly impossible NOT to have retaliation on you. As much as I love my engineer, I can’t even play the class in any sort of zvz play due to fact that retaliation does more damage to me than the damage I actually put out. What is the point of aoe ranged attacks (grenades), if it’s impossible to use them where they should be used. I actually made a post on the engineer forums about this very issue.
As for aoe caps, I also think the engineer is a prime example of what happens when the cap is removed. Since, the engineer can hit more than the 5 person cap (ie, up to 15 per grenade throw), he can likewise be hit by up to 15 stacks of retal per throw. Don’t even think about using barrage (8 nades hitting up to 5 people each means theoretically 40×350=14k dmg back). If the caps were raised, many more people would see what it’s like. Everyone would bunch up even more around the guardians, or you’d end up with just zergs of guardians running full perma retal builds. Then one aoe attack would kill you before you had the chance to cast your next skill. There would have to be a total rework of many game mechanics for something like this, and I can’t see that happening. It’s a shame, DAoC never had aoe caps and it worked fine. Then again you couldn’t kill yourself using 1 ability.
Therein lies the problem. Too much whining would happen if you had big attacks being hit back for 50% from retal. Really the only whining you get now is from engy’s, and maybe rangers. Why change anything based on a class that’s played by 10% of your fanbase when it will anger the other 90%. I decided to take the “if you can’t beat em, join em” approach. I needed to level up weaponsmithing and huntsman for the new ascended weapons. Thus, I used my exp. scroll and a couple more crafts to get my shiny new guardian to 60. I’ll continue to run engineer most of the time, but if the guild is doing anything zergy, I’ll run guardian or necro like a good little sheep.
They really are a must have. I love running nade/bomb/tool kits, but every single time I run that I die and curse that I didn’t have rocket boots equipped. I may win a couple of fights, but I just don’t have the escape or the gap closers when I run those 3 kits. It’s such a good ability.
It need an ICD so it doesnt proc 40x on a single ability.
Then we can even look at boosting the Retaliation-proc damage.
I don’t truly see the issue. If I use an ability which procs 3 5-target AEs, I’d bloody well expect the game to behave as if I am causing 3 5-target AEs, because that’s what I do.
Anything else would be obfuscating game-mechanics, which is never a good thing (see: MWO ghost heat mechanism).
Now what I would agree on is that grenade kit shouldn’t be so spammy. More meaningful, slower, less mass-AE attacks.
I somewhat agree about not changing the mechanics. The problem I have is that the actual retaliation damage kicked back is more than the damage the grenade puts out. As it is now, retaliation punishes small multi-hit damage way too much. Do you think a backstabbing thief thinks twice about backstabbing someone with retaliation up. He knows his 7k backstab is going to only kickback 350 ret damage at the most. He takes 5% of the damage he puts out on that backstab. Whereas, 1 toss of a grenade may hit 1 person for 600dmg, but I’ll take 1050 in return. So the high hitting deadly abilites take 5% damage back but low hitting fast abilities take 175% damage back. If that’s not a skewed mechanic, I don’t know what is. There should be no time in a game that a basic passive defensive proc should out damage an autoattack. Especially one so easy to keep up like retaliation.
I agree with Zaxares, and to take it a step further, let us buy vials/glob with high numbers of badges so WVW players have a path to ascended. To time gate it, do the same as ascended are now (reduced cost of laurels + badges). The proposed implementation makes me want to just leave the game over it. I have 4 80s, with probably 15-20 weapons between them. On my engineer alone, I’d have to level both weaponsmithing and huntsman to 400 just to make a pistol and shield. That’s 30g just to get to 400 so I can start grinding to 500. No thanks.
One pistol with bloodlust, one pistol with whatever you want. Get 25 stacks, swap out pistol. Bam pistol is now more powerful then rifle that was swapped out after having 25 stacks of……lol, this is neverending! ;D
ICD negates the whole point of the rune, which was to give mesmer’s another way to spread aoe confusion. Instead they should have given this to mesmers on a trait instead of on a rune. Once you add an icd, it becomes single target only. A single target confuse with a 20s cooldown wouldn’t be worth having the 6/6, in the same way the tormenting runes suck w/a 20s cd. I’d still run 5/6 on my engy though if they actually fix the +30% duration, so anet can do what they want. Personally, I’d rather see an x% damage increase to confusion in the 6/6 slot, and give mesmer’s a trait revision for the interupt.
C’mon OP fess up. You didn’t retire your engineer, Retaliation retired your engineer. ;D
Has it been confirmed that ascended/legendary weapons will actually get a damage modifier increase? I assumed it would just be a minimal stat increase. If it’s just the latter then it wouldn’t matter where our kits are concerned. I’m not keen on the power creep that’s going to occur, and will really be upset if they modify both the damage and stats.
I’m of the opposite opinion. I hate zergs and feel that they should not be rewarded for blobbing up. I feel that ranged aoe and to a higher extent pbaoe should break up zergs. This game already has the stupid notion that aoe can only hit 5 people, thus it’s much safer to just blob around since the majority of the people in your zerg will be safe from the damage. At keeps, arrowcarts help break these zergs up since they’re immune to the retaliation. In open field, our grenades should behave like that. If they have to add a small cooldown to keep them from being spammable, then so be it. Although, they’re already so slow and easy to avoid.
I was going to try this out tonight. Where’d you get the apothecary gear? I was going to use karma or badges until I realized it’s not available. I’m not sure I want to spend the money to try it out.
Trust me I hate blob vs blob zerg play and 80% of my time in game is spent roaming either solo or in small man squads where this is less of a problem. What I’m trying to say is that retaliation is not balanced very well against our kits. The grenade kit is an aoe ranged damage kit, but it can become useless in situations where aoe ranged damage is required. If retaliation were to kick back damage based on a percentage of damage done, it would be much more balanced. It should be much more like the gw1 buff of the same nature. I feel it should be ~20% damage kicked back. Then, it would punish all users equally across the board. Instead as it stands, I often take double the damage back that I put out. It negates the whole point of having a multi-hit skill. But, I get it, the horse has been dead and beaten enough at this point.
Sure in small fights that’s true. In 20v20+ we should just reroll since our main ranged attacks hit for less damage than we’re being hit for by a buff that guardians can keep up permanently? Yes, it takes much more skill to passively have a buff up. That’s why every zerg is all guardians and necros now, so much skill. I guess I’ll just stick to roaming, then swap to my easy mode facerolling necro when running in guild groups.
It won’t matter what your armor looks like on a human b/c you’ll always be stuck with that giant hideous hobosack on your back. Stick with asura, the master race!
The difference in the engineer using interupts to stack this is that the engineer’s interupts are all on long cooldowns. Also being aoe interupts, adding an icd to the rune would make it worthless. Likewise, the engineer has confusion stacking within their abilities/kits and many people think they are just stacking by interupts. I could already stack a ton of confusion prior to these runes coming out. I guess the argument here is that it’s possible to spam interupts using pistol 4 due to the mechanics of the thief. I have a thief, mesmer, and engy, and when these first came out, my first thought was to break out my old condition thief due to the spammable pistol 4. Instead I put them on my engineer. Having used them, I think they need to be reduced to 2-3 stacks per interrupt with possibly a shorter duration. That would come closer to balancing the runes. As I said before, an icd breaks this and makes it as useless as the tormenting runes. They were obviously made for mesmers to use w/their other aoe interupting abilities, so it will be interesting to see how anet fixes them. Personally, I’m hoping for x% confusion damage instead of on interupt. That would boost the professions that already can stack confusion, and get rid of the whining about spammable interupts on all the forums.
I’ve noticed more and more guilds are pushing for perma retaliation in larger fights. Now, personally, I’m not a big fan of zerg combat, and I loathe this new guardian/necro meta, but I do want to help out my guild in some of these fights. With the current meta, it’s getting harder and harder to play as an engineer in these situations. I think it’s unheard of that by throwing 1 auto attack of grenades, I actually hurt myself more than anyone I’m attacking. Obviously, it’s a mechanic to deter spamming, but at this point we can’t even throw any grenades at all. I literally get hit back for twice the damage I put out per grenade, per hit. Forget using barrage or traiting coated bullets. The class can be really fun to play, but I guess at this point I should just join the bandwagon and play my necro in big fights? I just hate that this is a ranged aoe class, that can’t actually aoe at range. As it stands, I can toss a few grenades, then focus on the squirrels on the outskirts of the fight, which does nothing to help my guilds push. Anyone else have any feelings about this?
/rant
And the frightening part is, he was an Engi, now a couple of friends of mine and I (3 thieves) all went D/P and bought these runes and went in to WvW and and roamed and it was beyond ridiculous how easy it was to kill ANYONE. These runes are beyond game-breaking in terms of what other runes are available. 20+ stacks of a condition in seconds, cleanse it? No problem, you’ll have another 20 stacks on you in seconds again.
I’ll preface this by saying that I do agree with you that the runes are broken. I think the stacks of confusion on the 6/6 of this rune put out should be reduced and/or the duration should be reduced slightly. I think adding a cooldown would break the intent of the rune, and wouldn’t allow for aoe confusion. That said, 3 D/P thieves roaming will kill anyone either way, runes or no runes. A single thief spamming pistol 4 with good initiative regen I supposed could stack up to 20 stacks of this. It would take 4 to stack 20 assuming all 4 actually interrupted. So are you saying you can then stack another 4 in seconds if it’s cleansed? Or are you talking about 3 thieves re-stacking them? As for engineers, they can’t restack 20 stacks in seconds due to the fact that both shield abilities and big ole bomb have 30s cooldowns, magnet has 25s, and air blast has a 15s cooldown. Those aren’t’ spammable abilities.
I fully expect anet to ruin this by doing something dumb like adding an internal cooldown. I really hate icd for on crit, hit, or interupt skills, because it automatically makes them single target. Instead, they should lower amount of stacks and/or the duration and keep the rune for it’s intended purpose.