Guild Wars 2

evilapprentice.6379:

DeceiverX.8361:

Those aren’t unreasonable scenarios, frankly. And that goes back to staying power and whatnot. Get caught in a sustained fight and you’ll likely be in that position.

Watch any D/X thief in any tournament and count the number of times they front stab, then get back to me.

Also note that a ranger who roots you and stays in melee range isn’t a bad player. Unless you’d like to just state that all S/x rangers or classes that use an immob and go in on melee are bad lol.

You are in stealth in this scenario. What exactly are they fighting?

Running at an “angle” doesn’t help. If you keep your camera forward as the thief, the skill would travel forward, thus making it land. You’re implying the war would need to do a zig-zag via WWS + rush and the dagger would need to be thrown delayed such that the skill would miss. Otherwise it should and would have always landed. Nike war just doesn’t move that way.

Oh my god, you don’t actually know how DD works, do you?

You just verified that DD on two targets would hit harder than a stab from the bounce. It’d end up with almost twice the base value and about 18% less scaling due to the bounces returning on the original target. Not to mention it hits both targets this way. Two thieves could wipe an entire party this way by using SR on both and both pressing 4 -> 4.

If I were to use the old DD now, each bounce would deal around 6000 damage on a given target. That’s 12k per person in a group of two on what was once still 8 init, versus 12 from CnD stabs over a much longer period of time with no paired cripple.

The post was a mixed reply to your and Ein’s criticisms over my post. Ein stated the damage nerf was overdone and two years ago when the nerf actually occurred, that it was unnecessary.

I’m sorry, I naturally assumed we were comparing backstab to 1 DD (pre damage nerf), not 2, because comparing it to 2 is asinine.

They don’t front-stab because usually they can’t afford one. A lot of players do not even have points in critical strikes now, making the backstab damage similar to an HK’ed front stab if it doesn’t crit. And in sPvP, most people can’t afford a front stab, seeing as the damage in general is so nerfed in the format and toughness values/durability values are so much higher than in PvE/WvW. My frontstab in WvW does 6-10k. If you want to tell me that that kind of damage isn’t substantial, I’m sorry but there’s no helping you.

Do you play ranger? Entangle ignores stealth altogether. It hits anything in its range. S/x ranger also tracks stealth naturally on its auto-chain, even moving stealthed targets. Perma-cripple on S/D often makes it pretty dang hard to run around your target this way seeing as it takes longer and they remain on you the whole time while most importantly facing you. The options against a good S/D ranger are either reset or kill them facing forwards. With any luck, my mug + CnD also hits for another 4k + 8k or so, totaling 20k with a front stab. Double Strike and a HS and that ranger is on the ground dead and with myself at low health. No more auto-targeting allows for a stealth/heal recovery since the pet won’t track. Trying to flank in a fight like that is pointless.

Please enlighten me as to how basic geometry works. I’ve never once had an issue with DD missing unless the target was out of range. Center your camera and align with the angle they’re moving in. Throw while jumping for extra range and reliability. I think it’s you who’s really failing to understand how this skill works.

I’m not referring to using two DD’s. I was referring to a “group of two” players. DD can hit the same target more than once from its bounces. That’s why it was overpowered; it used to be such that if you used the skill against a group of two players, it would hit each player for 5k + 5k damage. With the lower projectile speed, it wasn’t uncommon for people to use SR -> stalk and get close -> DD -> DD again during the first’s mid-air flight such that you wouldn’t get revealed before casting the second, causing both to land and deal around 20k total damage to each player within a time frame of less than a second. Now do this with just two thieves; a group of four will go to downed state from nowhere. This is why DD’s damage got nerfed to begin with; it was just too good in scenarios while against more than one player, which is why I targeted that response toward’s Ein’s statement about the damage nerf being unnecessary. It genuinely and absolutely was.

Well, the class is kind of kitten in sPvP for the most part. In competitive play thieves are only used to turn even fights into ones with favorable numbers. They’re not capable of soloing much in that format.

For WvW, we’re seeing a shift to a dire condi meta for roaming at the moment, one which will make things much more difficult to do anything.

It’s really just a lot of practice. If you’ve got friends who play other classes, ask to fight them in duel/empty arenas in sPvP. Have them explain their builds and classes to you if you can’t find yourself with the motivation to play/level one, such that you can learn what to expect from other classes and how to survive/punish them better.

I’d probably start with 6 points in Shadow Arts as a new thief on the basis that the line is just incredibly strong and the condi metas we’re seeing in PvP and WvW make not using this trait setup quite difficult.

I do not recommend P/D. It’s too easy to play and teaches bad practices. A lot of the P/D players I’ve helped move to aggressive D/D have proven to have very little knowledge of the thief class or its match-ups because the set is so robust it requires little learning investment, subsequently making learning more difficult (but rewarding) builds similarly to the extent of new players.

The damage has been cut.
Ferocity has nerfed it.
Revealed status did not exist at some of those threads’ inceptions.
Culling was a huge problem that led to all classes being invisible in combat.
Assassin’s Signet change cut stab damage by another 30%.

SilverWF.4789:

DeceiverX.8361:

Stealth isn’t OP.
Thief isn’t OP.

Rangers are not OP, LB#2 is pretty OK.
Kkhxbye.

They’re not, either. Even RF isn’t that amazing. Fire/Air procs are.

The thing about chill is that it affects base mobility which is massively important to the class as well as it affects the cooldown of steal, venoms, etc.

Pretty much any thief not using Withdraw will get hit by this skill similarly to every other class, as chill durations are fairly short and often aren’t stacked so much as applied fairly frequently. This makes SE less useful for removing the effect.

And as mentioned, cutting the initiative regen rate is just way too powerful. Chill would effectively act similarly to what is a bare minimum 6 second daze due to the shared resource pool on all cooldowns.

It’s been looked into officially a number of times and was tested internally (I also recall the dev post from a while back) and even the response from internal testing, which is obviously not perfectly accurate due to some of the monstrosities we see in the game recognized that the regen rate punishment was just too harsh to the point it made the class border-line useless unless either the thief only had chill applied and had initiative for an Infil Strike/Return for the one-condi cleanse, or had shadowstep or withdraw available, things which cannot be counted on.

That hard of a counter simply shouldn’t exist for any class, and especially since chill already resides mostly on the classes and builds that best counter the thief as it stands, anyways.

As far as PvE goes it doesn’t really matter much. S/P is just considered the safest due to the cleave and blinds requiring less in terms of dodging and positional requirements while fighting aginst AI. Either way, thieves don’t really have rotations unless you build explicitly for one. A lot of times (and hence why we have the initiative mechanic), skills are meant to be used selectively for whenever they’re simply best used (or not at all).

Stealth isn’t OP.
Thief isn’t OP.

6 Points in Shadow Arts is just ridiculously strong but border-line necessary because the rest of the class is relatively bad.

Those aren’t unreasonable scenarios, frankly. And that goes back to staying power and whatnot. Get caught in a sustained fight and you’ll likely be in that position.

Also note that a ranger who roots you and stays in melee range isn’t a bad player. Unless you’d like to just state that all S/x rangers or classes that use an immob and go in on melee are bad lol.

Running at an “angle” doesn’t help. If you keep your camera forward as the thief, the skill would travel forward, thus making it land. You’re implying the war would need to do a zig-zag via WWS + rush and the dagger would need to be thrown delayed such that the skill would miss. Otherwise it should and would have always landed. Nike war just doesn’t move that way.

You just verified that DD on two targets would hit harder than a stab from the bounce. It’d end up with almost twice the base value and about 18% less scaling due to the bounces returning on the original target. Not to mention it hits both targets this way. Two thieves could wipe an entire party this way by using SR on both and both pressing 4 → 4.

If I were to use the old DD now, each bounce would deal around 6000 damage on a given target. That’s 12k per person in a group of two on what was once still 8 init, versus 12 from CnD stabs over a much longer period of time with no paired cripple.

The post was a mixed reply to your and Ein’s criticisms over my post. Ein stated the damage nerf was overdone and two years ago when the nerf actually occurred, that it was unnecessary.

Regarding the comment about front-stabbing: I do it intentionally all the time. If your foe is at 33% from a cloak and dagger, and you get clutch Immobilized by say, a ranger, is it smart to just stand there useless while in stealth waiting to die, or burn additional skills and utilities to try and re-position for a backstab after he heals? NO. If your CnD got him that low, the stab will finish him off, even from the front. What’s better, trying to maybe not die by doing nothing in hopes you don’t get focused, or just finishing the person right there and then?

Regarding Dancing Dagger, it wasn’t viable so much as a 900 range DPS tool or long-range poke, no, but it did offer tons of utility in terms of escape prevention. It would have issues left/right, but its frontal honing was absolutely fine. The number of nike warriors trying to run away I’ve killed by a well-placed Dancing Dagger early on to reduce rush, wwa, and charge has proven the skill as invaluable to me, even sitting on 4 initiative. We’re back on the spamming thing again as well, such that I don’t believe any skill should be spammed for damage.

DD had to be nerfed in its damage because before the nerf it did more damage than a backstab if two people even stood remotely close to each other. A 900 range projectile cripple that could be thrown twice from stealth before the first even connected was just silly and broken.

There are a lot of options for power sets at the moment. But that could just be how the weapon sets were designed and catered to for the target audience. What’s stopping more weapon releases, especially with specializations coming out? I mean mesmers are literally in the same exact spot in regards to a melee condition weapon. Do you see them complaining? No. They don’t because the melee option doesn’t even have a condition tied to it except for a brief immobilize. There’s no point in trying to re-invent the wheel, here.

Regarding the proposed change for front stab, I think that was an issue with clarity as well. “Applying conditions” is pretty ambiguous. Seeing as it would still be a conditional thing like backstab, I was under the impression you were referring to a heavy bomb to parallel the effects of backstab when it is hit from behind as well as to compensate for lost damage. Obviously I still disagree with the notion, because sometimes the front stab is absolutely necessary and that damage is needed precisely then (otherwise the enemy might just backstep and heal).

Einlanzer.1627:

DeceiverX.8361:

This is not difficult, it does not require thought, allows for huge margins of error while playing, and totally contradicts the intention of the initiative system by capitalizing on one strength repeatedly.

Capitalizing on one strength repeatedly is actually one of the main purposes of the Initiative system. There’s nothing innately wrong with DB spam just because you don’t like it. It’s enormously effective in PvE and occasionally effective in PvP. You don’t get to dismiss an entire aspect of the game (that, frankly, more people play and comprises a much bigger part of the gameplay) just because you don’t play it.

Read the post above for a more thorough breakdown of where we are with D/D.

Except it isn’t. The initiative system, and subsequently our low health pools and high mobility, were created to allow for thief players to do any desired skill at any time given the initiative as a means of reacting better to specific circumstances. By design, the class has an in-and-out in its fighting style, and can’t bank on a 10s cooldown being ready in that few moments when your opponent doesn’t have protection, stability, immunities, berserker stance, etc. Skill spamming is why CnD got nerfed in PvP, HS’s damage got nerfed on the high end my a huge margin, IoS got nerfed on initiative refund due to HS spamming, FS was changed entirely from permament evasion to a two-part skill, CG reveals… I could continue.

It’s also not effective in PvE. Unless you’re playing open world in areas flooded by trash mobs, there is quite literally zero purpose to spam DB. Go to the top-tier PvE thieves and they will scoff at that kind of comment.

Spamming 3 for Death blossom for condition stacks is NOT a valid way to play, and in all honesty shouldn’t be. Until Colin Johanson comes out and states that D/D thief was meant as being a hybrid build, I’m sorry but you have zero evidence to make this kind of claim. This quick-response system is why I posted the above as well. These skills aren’t mean for primary use/damage spam. These skills are meant to augment weaknesses in the build itself. For D/P, it’s HS’s interrupting ability and stickiness potential with blinds for sustained fights. D/D is an aggressive melee physical damage set. Its weakness is staying power, which is alright, for D/P is focused a bit more on that, but it’s simply too weak at the moment in terms of its ability to synergize with corresponding trait builds to become more viable. Much like P/P, though, you can’t just go around changing the 1/2/4/5 skills since those are already fine or very strong on other builds. DB is what genuinely needs a bit of work to make the set as a whole more viable. The only reason D/D is viable is because of PvE trash mobs getting hit hard by cloak and dagger such that damage can be dealt while stealthing up and the initiative cost is lower such that upon reveal the thief gets access to First Strikes applying to RT and HS’s, and because D/D can spike glass in WvW because armor values aren’t inflated and power/crit scaling as well as CnD hasn’t been nerfed into oblivion like it has in sPvP.

Necrotize.2974:

I kinda just want a one-handed weapon that can be in MH or OH so that we get a whole slew of new #3 skills in addition to a whole new set…

I can understand the desire for a 1200 range weapon, but I think you have to acknowledge that if we did get such a weapon, it definitely wouldn’t be able to really bursty without some serious drawbacks(meaning it would only really be good for gimmicky quick kills in perfect scenarios) since having something with the power of say ,Killshot, coming out of stealth just screams one-trick pony that will get nerfed anyway, leaving you with a single target, not-so burst weapon that probably wouldn’t be worth it anymore.

Kind of more or less why I support the longbow (or better yet, crossbow). Such a weapon would need to have no stealth and no blind access, otherwise it interferes with other sets or synergizes too well with the class’s other effects. Consider something like a fixed-distance, always-forward Infil Arrow as a re-posion skill for a low initiative cost (exactly like how Ink Shot works), but much faster and just the ability to hit at 1200 for reasonable damage on the auto-attack to maintain this distance. It doesn’t need burst damage or stealth or CC or durabiliy so much as something to play into the whole high-speed ranged character model that just focuses on not getting hit, thus the dependency on 1200 ranger over 900. Rifles don’t really fit the bill thematically for this so much as an archery weapon does, and this doesn’t exist anywhere else in the game.

Maugetarr.6823:

evilapprentice is certainly correct about both poison and DB. Poison is equivalent to 2 stacks of bleed. It’s most likely going to get cleansed before it does any serious damage to anyone, but its strength lies in its ability to counter people’s sustain and recovery after burst. Damaging conditions either have a higher base or stack in intensity such as burning, bleeding, torment, and confusion. It’s very convenient that the base damage of poison (84) almost matches the base healing of regen while poisoned (~86), which is to say it’s mainly there to kill sustain.

Honestly you guys can keep saying that D/D is a hybrid (or condi), but it doesnt really have enough variety in it’s damaging conditions to be hybrid to make up for the loss in power. Look at the top cele classes that can make use of burning and bleeding, and then use sigil of doom to gain the advantage in prolonged fights. P/D is a decent hybrid/condi set, because it can constantly reapply steady damaging conditions, then put poison on top of it (when traited). Sure death blossom can burst long duration bleeds pretty well, but a single condi clear wipes out all the initiative spent building that. P/D can easily reapply the stack without having to expend initiative doing so, allowing them more flexibility to use their other weapon skills.

You can make up for D/D’s lack of damaging conditions with traits and runes, but you would honestly be more effective if you put that effort into bolstering a P/D build.

They don’t need to remove the bleeds from DB though if you guys think that would kill a spec you enjoy. Instead, just make it similar to warrior’s whirlwind attack (GS#3) so that it can be use better for evasion and has a skill shot on it for tactical repositioning. Keep the damage and the bleeds the same. Then it would have a purpose no mater what type of build you’re trying to use it in.

I mentioned whirlwind in one of the above posts just now. I don’t agree the bleeds could stay the same, though, since a constantly-moving/weaving application of stacks of bleeding during spammed evades paired with utilities like roll for initiative and traited initiative gain on heal for a skill like withdraw would make this concept WAY too strong with far too little to counter it.

It’s why I’m against trying to justify the set as a hybrid one. It isn’t a hybrid set. DB is archaic from a design perspective that is no longer around in GW2. Hybrid setups have proven not to work, and are even harder to balance for the thief due to the dual skills having such a role. D/D shouldn’t be put in the position P/P is in now because of an awkward hybrid setup that is part underpowered part overpowered.

I think keeping weapons distinct in what they do is a really important factor of the game. It’d be like if Axe MH on warrior had a bleed on its auto-attack. Think of fighting a MH axe warrior, now. You won’t really know what he’s building until you get hit. And that hit could be a 13k eviscerate, or it could just be some bleeds. So you need to take extra precaution, and it makes combat more stand-off-ish and slower to escalate.

I get that people might want to have a melee condi weapon on the thief, and there shouldn’t be anything from stopping that, but I just don’t believe fundamentally changing the dagger to accommodate for other build types is a good idea.

I’m not sure. Granted, this is a personal opinion on the issue (as I believe this discussion was also inteded to reflect upon). Conditional abilities are an interesting prospect, but I do play the the thief as an assassin. I have established my build to reduce the number of conditional circumstances to be as low as physically possible in that I prefer to make those decisions on my own. I think that’s kind of what makes good PvP’ers better than bad ones to to speak; they can run through a set of conditions or expected outcomes and analyze the battlefield quicker or better and thus control their character better. It’s why I particularly dislike HS as a skill in regards to how it scales, and hate the HP-percentage-based traits. Having outside influences affect damage or abilities kind of randomizes things for both the thief and the enemy, which I believe detracts from play.

I.E., you need to gain an effect where your opponent has > 75% health, and you’re ganking someone with your guardian friend. You coordinate such that as soon as the foe gets knocked down/while he’s being knocked down, you’ll use the ability to gain said effect. You know your friend is playing a soldier’s build and shouldn’t get the guy below 75%.

But, your friend crits. Now you have no effect, and you need to keep cycling these effects until some conditions are met. It’s an interesting gimmick, but I don’t think I’d want that to be part of the class I play, or even one I fight against; a lucky crit by a non-crit strikes build causes him to get a huge conditional advantage not normally obtained by his build, or something. Seems kind of unfair to have those kinds of factors in play.

Boon stealing is interesting, but I’m not sure if it’s reasonable to make so many abilities steal boons. Duplicate, maybe, as then it acts as a buff, and is played kind of like “Oh, I could use 20s of fury, too,” almost as though you’ve got your eye on something nice as you’re passing by. But blatantly stealing so many boons, especially in a build like S/D 6 trickery, it could be excessive and shut down way too many classes/builds.

Maybe something like this could be implemented as a future specialization – such as one named the Pickpocket or somethig – regarding things like boon copying, or some additional tweaks for conditional stuff (more general things like if your target is CC’ed like Sigil of Impact), but I don’t know if I’d agree to this on the basis of flavor so to speak.

Definitely creative to move that concept outside of just the Steal ability, though. I’d like to see more flavorful things like this come up in optional specializations.

evilapprentice.6379:

We are not talking about a condi spec. That was made abundantly clear. The entire point of this conversation is how DB has no place in D/D because the rest of the set is clearly built for Power/crit, as DB is the only skill in the entirety of the set that gains anything palpable from condition damage.

Right. So why are you re-working the entire weapon combination and subsequently other weapons as well? Get rid of the condition application part of the weapon if it’s designed around power, and make DB do something more useful than apply a few stacks of bleeds.

DB could afford some changes and alterations to help D/D be a more cohesive weapon set, but hybridizing it does nothing to solve these cohesion issues/weaknesses. I’d rather see the skills be mediocre than too strong individually due to the initiative system allowing for a lack of cooldowns. That’s why I refuse to acknowledge D/D 3 spam condi as a style of play or a legitimate build; it’s utilizing only on skill for everything it does and is almost exclusively measured by how “properly” one presses 3 or gets into stealth to heal. This is not difficult, it does not require thought, allows for huge margins of error while playing, and totally contradicts the intention of the initiative system by capitalizing on one strength repeatedly.

Continued…

What does D/D lack? Staying power and synergy with corresponding trait builds. Giving it a hybrid approach does not help the set function better. It brings down its currently somewhat-effective power build to being even less effective, and only makes its condition counterpart suck less. Hybrid builds don’t work without excessive might stacking, and that’s something that synergizes best with a pure damage stab build, anyways. Ask almost anyone running conditions on any level if it’s smarter to build celestial or Sinister over just dire. Ask the hybrid players if they think using Dire gear would just be better. They’ll respond that hybrid builds aren’t optimal performers because of the design of GW2. The “hybrid” approach is why P/P is a failing weapon combination. How do you resolve the shortcomings of a weapon set? By actually examining its weak points relative to other sets and builds, and finding an intermediary. I’d rather see the skill function as a small condition cleanse/return with no bleeds attached to it, or simply as a skill with a forced mobile evade (like whirlwind attack) than some kind of ultimately sub-par condition hybrid attempt. You’re talking about more than just DB here; you’re talking about skills which interact with other sets and builds. In a vacuum maybe it’s fine for those builds which are defined by using D/D, but I’m sorry but your ideas are just not acceptable ones when you bring the other sets into play and compare them relatively as well as with other classes while also truly learning the effectiveness and use of each individual skill available.

And to be so condescending to immediately assume I know nothing about the class by disagreeing with you, especially when you totally neglect to consider that the existing skills are working and are seeing their functionality improved on the basis of physical damage viability, and are already functional? I’m sorry, but who are you exactly to talk down to other people or dismiss their concerns altogether?

I want control over my character. I play D/D on the sheer principle that I can enter a fight knowing exactly how to respond to certain events and how to engage. Nobody’s perfect, obviously, and I do not claim to be, but to know exactly how much damage I need to deal and when is an absolutely essential part of playing this kind of build. This decision making is on the fly, but I know exactly what to expect. Adding in extra effects and reducing what is a perfectly acceptable design only makes play more difficult for everyone in the end. Trying to make weapon functionality and counterplay determined by style is not a good choice when it comes to a class than can and will engage with an upper hand and with surprise. I’m all for making the thief a competitive class, but being incapable of knowing what to expect for incoming damage – especially when one of the options is so punishing for getting hit at all – is just unfair and not good design. Facing another D/D thief would be next to impossible to know what to expect, since either you’re getting one-shotted by a build like mine if you don’t evade and re-position properly for a backstab, or are taking condition hits from the opposite direction and need to preserve stun breaks and condition cleanses for later.

evilapprentice.6379:

Before you post any further Deciever, please respond to this post from earlier in the thread. You made some pretty substantial claims that you were entirely incapable of
justifying. From what you’ve written here, it’s hard to believe you know the class well enough to weigh in on any balance decisions.

For the sake of clarity, here is the list of changes I suggested that you felt would “ruin D/X builds”

- Double strike – reduce damage scaling, add a 2-3s Bleed to each swing.
- Front stab (backstab from the front) – reduce damage scaling alot, add damaging conditions to compensate
- DB – lower bleed duration some, buff direct damage some
- Dancing Dagger – add torment, increase Init cost by 1.

Okay.

DS is part of the thief’s primary DPS rotation. It’s not part of the burst, but it’s part of the primary DPS. Removing the damage from this skill will reduce PvE viability as well as reduce finishing potential for power builds. It is always better to chain 1 -> 1 -> 2 over 1 -> 1 -> 1. In PvP formats, Double Strike also functions frequently as a finisher to bring down low health targets quickly. The damage that comes from this skill is fast and essential before allowing say a clutch heal/cleanse.

Front stab, sometimes you need that damage right then and there and can calculate whether or not it’s necessary to backstab or just hit them in the face instead. If can keep up with the math, you’ll know exactly how much a front-stab after CnD will hit for by doing the calculations in real-time based upon CnD damage. Not to mention landing a front-stab is inherently easier to do (so rewarding condi builds for… what exactly?), and DoT’s just don’t play into the premise of a setup designed for ending fights quickly due to lack of staying power.

Dancing Dagger is another essential skill for power stab builds. It’s got a solid-duration cripple that can let one close a gap relatively easy, and currently has a very nice niche. It’s a ranged finishing blow, an engage or disengage tool, and a projectile finisher. I believe DD, with the recent projectile speed increase, is a very useful skill to have for what it is, and I’ve always thought so. It already has enough potency as it stands for condition builds because of the cripple as well. P/D can really utilize the cripple to maintain perfect distance, and P/D already has spammable torment. Giving the build with the second-highest access to torment in the game even more access to torment is just silly and superfluous, especially when it comes from ranged and can bounce. The cripple itself is also useful enough even for existing DB 3 spammer condi builds to better lock down their foes such that more of the hits from DB resolve, or to force cleanses prematurely. Much like DB, I find that those who believe this skill as totally worthless have a lot more to learn. After a lot of testing and forcing myself to familiarize myself with using it an identifying what uses it has, I’ve found myself able to better handle encounters I used to struggle with.

These aren’t mean to be high-impact skills. That’s why Dancing got nerfed to begin with so long ago; it did too much. What these skills are meant to be are answers for situations that D/D as a set struggles with otherwise.

D/D is a set that emphasizes physical damage. I do not consider spamming 3 a build, or what should be a build strategy, or even a style of play. I call it a design oversight which can’t be reverted due to existing player investment and that the build itself is sub-optimal or in many regards, contrary to the design of what the class was supposed to do. DB is not junk, either. When used correctly, it acts as a nice evade frame when if say, a shortbow swap is not available such that it can be used with about-face and rear-facing camera to provide a similar effect as Disabling Shot. It requires much better timing, yes, but it does prevent the necessity from swapping to a utility weapon and waiting to swap back again for fast-response damage.

Dunno who thought it’d be a good idea to burn that many gap closes for such a long engage range lol.

PU mesmer, P/D dire thief, engineers as a class, and terrormancers are extremely potent in 1v1’s. It depends largely on the build and matchup. One can’t assume thieves are the best 1v1’ers as a class. And depending on the format, they actually just aren’t even good at 1v1.

Except D/D players largely don’t want it to be a hybrid set.

As I said earlier, I’d drop the class in its entirety if D/D became hybrid. I almost play this game exclusively for D/D power thief. A lot of D/D players use it over D/P because it offers more damage. Turning sets into hybrids doesn’t do anything except force the set into condition damage. P/P is bad because of this exact reasoning, especially since changes to 1/2/4/5 reflect other weapons.

The dagger doesn’t need lower damage for bonus conditions. Spamming 1 and 3 are not playing the game just as much as spamming 3 isn’t playing the game. It would drop viability in PvE and remove finishing potential in PvP formats. It indirectly nerfs the effectiveness of RT and other power traits/specs. There are a lot of reasons to disagree with this prospect.

P/P is a terrible hybrid set because it’s paired between the two most powerful thief builds – D/P and P/D, yet is still sub-par on everything. How about we look at improving that hybrid spec first before we go about trying to force what is currently a barely-viable power spec into being a trash-tier hybrid spec for the sake of letting a few people feel stronger by using an already-poor build?

Would of all things like to see DB remove say, a condition or two per cast, and have the conditions be treated as projectiles launch in a random direction in the air which when hitting a player returns said condition back.

Buffs D/D’s utility which solves the D/P superiority problem wile giving D/P still better stealth access and cleansing from SE, prevents damage changes/direct buffs to D/D which would affect other sets.

The suggestion to have dagger MH be turned into a hybrid weapon is the same as asking for MH sword on mesmer to have reduced damage and apply confusion because there are no melee weapons for condi/hybrid mesmer.

I sincerely doubt that the power mesmer community would be okay with that, seeing as the MH sword is their iconic power weapon. The same is said of thieves with dagger MH.

On release of HoT, there will only be one available specialization.

That said, it does not mean more will come. I’d expect to see more specializations implemented in future months after release to allow for better class/weapon/build balancing and more customization. Specializations offer a framework for more horizontal expansion, meaning they can be expanded upon almost infinitely.

Donut.6914:

I just don’t see how a rifle gives us anything new. Warriors already have a sniper rifle, if you wanna be a sniper just go play Warrior. You can hit 10k killshots in rapid succession from 1500 range, but if you get caught in close quarters you’re screwed. That sounds like what a lot of people are looking for, I just don’t see why Thieves need the exact same thing.

Exactly. And rifle engineer is the highly-mobile blunderbuss-style play we’d come to expect from the other side of things.

I’d really prefer the class to also have the longbow if no new weapons are implemented. We already have obvious skill with the shortbow, so there’s no reason why we couldn’t take on a marksman-type which so many rangers/thieves want from a mobile single-target DPS.

Not to mention, every additional firearms-based build makes P/P worse relatively, and the rifle just doesn’t fit the bill without either copying the warrior’s kit (boring) or changing the class design and feel immensely.

I’m hoping that the thief does get some love elsewhere, but have a feeling we’re just getting the rifle :\

Black Teagan.9215:

I dont understand why so many thieves here want a 1200r weapon.
I mean 900r are more than enough for a melee class with so much mobility and shadowsteps.

I would love more a chain scythe weapon like a Kusarigama for the thieves and no boring rifle.

1200 range would be a huge deal, especially on my D/D stab build, as well as generally in PvP formats, and it would open up more possibilities with less counter-play by better-allowing me to engage a fight properly.

If new weapons are to come, I’d be all-in for a crossbow. It’s definitely the most fitting thematically, and could solve a lot of potential problems like the lack of a 1200 range option, and open up more doors for more mobile styles other classes or builds just can’t bring.

Jayden Ennok.3687:

Cynz.9437:

useless set besides some wvw roaming…. idk why people even bother playing it, it just gives you bad habbits

This is something that bothers me. Majority of condi P/D thieves are new to the class/not that skilled and the only thing that P/D needs to succeed is landing CnD (which many compensate with D/P as secondary). So how can those players learn the class if they use a set that allows that many mistakes and doesn’t require much in terms of timing/weapon set skill use.

We’ll just end up with half the thief player base having same skill level as an average pve ranger.

The same as everyone else in all honesty. The thing about the thief is that you’ll never be a good thief until you play a difficult build poorly at some point and strive to overcome those obstacles.

P/D dire almost hands you kills on a platter without requiring much skill at all. Many people who have moved from P/D dire to another build will blatantly admit this. I certainly know all of the people I’ve helped switch to an aggressive D/D assassination/periph build have.

Nobody starts as a pro. Making mistakes and learning from those is how you get there, though. I feel the same about builds that go 6 deep into Shadow Arts; there’s a massive amount of crutch durability there that if one becomes dependent on, they become almost incapable of playing anything else.

Hm?

http://www.riotgames.com/tags/tencent

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2379503,00.asp

http://venturebeat.com/2014/05/14/league-of-legend-parent-company-tencent-makes-1-billion-in-profit-last-quarter/

Now Riot has hired foreign artists for some of their splash art, but the entirety of the game is still run by Riot.

That is, unless you’d like to disagree.

naiasonod.9265:

As much as I tend to be someone staunchly inclined to think its good to get off the computer and do useful things in living color, you kinda come off like your opinion of living life is the only relevant one.

Don’t be too hasty to presume to know others’ circumstances, is what I’d caution. Often as not, they’re less like one’s own than one might necessarily imagine.

Far from what I’m trying to convey. Sorry if that’s how it came off, though. I mean that one shouldn’t try to just ignore these types of problems. As I mentioned, gaming as I did brought me an immense opportunity and a one-in-a-million experience – one that I’m still ever-grateful of – and that it’s not all about doing other things in the “real world;” obviously I still like to kick back and kill time here.

What I mean is that one shouldn’t try to fill up a longing to do something with the distraction of something else. It’s why I’ve come to the conclusions I have about how to live life happier. Are there limitations? Absolutely. You will absolutely never see me going skydiving or anything pertaining to swimming on my own. That’s just simply reckless. But it doesn’t necessarily mean I can’t try those things with other people (albeit I personally don’t have much of a desire to, anyways, but that’s my personality).

As I mentioned, if the game is what can fill that void, indulge in it. Nobody should be able to say otherwise.

Jaymee.1560:

Guys, come on… look, I didn’t make this original post just to come off as if I am using my health problems as an excuse… because I’m not. Because of my MS/CP combo, there are only about a million things I can no longer do due to my physical setbacks. I can’t even leave my home without someone with me for my own safety.

I am only stating the good that Guild Wars 2 has done for my life, and how I very well could be in a way worse circumstance than I am now if I didn’t have the game to keep me occupied.

Please, don’t argue… I know as long as there are two people in the world, there will always be two different opinions. I just wished to thank all ArenaNet has done for me over the last 2 and a half years, and even over the last 9 years, as I’ll count Guild Wars 1 into the mix.

For my life, in my personal set of circumstances, this game has been a blessing for me. That is all. It gives me something to look forward to each day aside from taking a crap ton of medications and fighting to retain what little physical independence I have.

This is not a meant to be a debate on who could be doing what to improve their lives.

And I totally understand. An older ex-co-worker of mine was in a similar scenario (although not exact), and believe me I recognize my disability is far better than what some others have, even in the realm of just epilepsy. Some have their entire brains corrupted so to speak where their bodies can barely function – a tragic scene I witnessed at a meeting with the Epilepsy Foundation some years back, where eight year olds were strapped into wheelchairs while undergoing a never-ending chain of seizures – so it’s not that I do not understand limitations. It’s why I posted what I did; you mentioned this thread in your original post that it was to be a discussion, and I wanted to emphasize that to those who can fill that void, they should. It’s not to downplay you or your experience. In fact, what I intend is the total opposite. I’d like to try and motivate those with the feelings I had in the past to push the envelope if they can, because only fulfilling those desires will bring true happiness. if those desires don’t exist, then there’s no need to try.

Maybe I worded things poorly, or my attempt at reducing the post size caused the message to not get across clearly. I don’t know. I just want to make people aware that one shouldn’t just write off things as bad or unsafe or risky or impossible just because of a medical setback. If one really has the desire to do something, I believe they will find a way. Will the blind set records in speed cycling? Likely not. But it shouldn’t stop him from experiencing the feeling of riding a bike. I’m not saying everyone should go offline and make themselves “better” people. No, not at all. I want to enforce the belief that people should follow their passions to the end of the earth and pursue a balance in their lives, because that’s what makes life meaningful.

I hope that clarifies what I wrote above, and maybe you can see where I’m coming from if you re-read the above.

I like this thread in that a lot of people have come out of the woodwork to describe their experiences with spending a lot of time in-game and in the community. I’ll contribute in a totally different way, though.

I think it’s wonderful that the gaming industry has been able to offer some people these opportunities.

But I don’t know if it’s healthy to try and promote the game as being an alternative to life so to speak.

Now, I’ve got my own disabilities and setbacks; I have a rare form of incurable epilepsy that cannot be traced back through my brain. Seizures may happen at any time for no reason with no trigger, at any part in my brain. Medicine alone is around $2k a month on the best insurance available in the US. I can’t drive, and so on.

What I learned after moping through high school, though, is that a lot of what hinders one’s self is in his head; I let myself go socially through this part of my life such that I was set back quite a bit socially, and the re-percussive bullying during that time made the process recursive; I have never dated (still), had held a best friend for more than a year or so at that time, or had done anything with my life. I joined no clubs or activities. I did nothing educational outside of school. I sat in a room every day doing nothing but playing these games.

Now, did that open up doors? Absolutely. I became a trusted member of an MMO community to the point where I was placed in a position of power over moderation, later GM’ing, further forum administrating, offered a full-time job and move across the country to work for them, and the likes – all starting at 16 and before even turning 20. I did it unpaid for so long, and got to learn a massive amount about international business and the internals of the MMO industry. It’s been a hell of a ride.

But while attending college, I’ve realized I missed out on too much. I never pushed myself to do anything but be part of a game. There was a hole I was artificially trying to clog with a distraction – a guise of therapy and physical potential equal to that of everyone else – and that hole led to me accepting myself as inferior or hindered for a long time.

My advice? Live life or die miserable. Don’t try to fill the circular hole with the square block; it is and never will be enough. I’m in the process of getting my motorcycle license (two years seizure free in a few months!). I’ve picked up archery and beginning parkour. I re-tuned my guitar again for the first time in eight years not long ago with aspirations to perform. I plan on going snowboarding next season when I’ve got the cash and settle down. I grabbed a new skateboard this past summer and learned to ollie again after a lot of falling from not trying in a decade :P

These things could literally kill me – I go for the cycle to avoid the risk of injuring anyone else despite it being more dangerous if I were to crash, and it’s possible that they will end my life “prematurely,” and my family’s not had an easy time with it – but I’ve come to the conclusion that if you feel there’s a void somewhere, you absolutely should and can do it, one way or another. My conversation abilities have improved a hundred-fold outside of game-speak, since it was all I knew, and I’ve realized I’ll never get to experience my missed opportunities like prom, the early leg-up on dating, or better grades and learning so much more academia to go to a better university. But it doesn’t matter. If one is fulfilled, there is no such thing as dying “prematurely,” because if you see and experience as much of the world as you possibly can, which is impossible to complete, you’ve achieved what some elders may not be otherwise able to say they have in their lives.

If the game offers the only solace needed, then by all means, indulge yourself. But take it me – the “spaz” back in middle school when I’d have an episode daily while we struggled to find new/working meds for five years – if you still feel a void, fulfill it. It’s not worth living just hoping it’ll get better, because it won’t; you need to go and fill that hole yourself. And you’ll be happy you did.

To put things into perspective:

League of Legends got bought out by a Chinese equivalent some years ago (actually, a much, much bigger company that’s so big it makes NCSoft look paltry). But the franchise is still in Riot’s name and developed/operated internally.

NCSoft likely plays the same role in ArenaNet’s operations.

It hits harder and is more durable than the P/P builds out there, so at worst you’re not awful.

Though meta P/D should carry you no matter what build you play. My testing with berserker P/D demonstrated the build is so ridiculously strong it doesn’t matter what you do.

I don’t really care if they change it or not. I just want the condition cleansing better-accessible to all builds, seeing as the rest of SA is just either a crutch or for venoms (which is unfair to VShare builds).

As a thief advocate in general, I too agree this build is stupidly overpowered for how easy and boring it is.

Most people who ask me for my build/advice on the class usually leave P/D and are happy to on the basis that it is too easy and too boring.

But that applies to most things running dire conditions; the risk-reward is too low in general on these builds.

cyyrix.6105:

Yes. Failure to prevent stealth should be punishing. That doesn’t mean you should support unskilled, spammy mechanics like backstab. You can always compensate for the change. For example, if each backstab attempt costs 2 initiative:

1) Increased backstab damage (you don’t like this one)
2) Gain some combination of boons when you land backstab
3) Gain 4 initiative when you land backstab
4) Strip boons when you land backstab

All of these things would be a nice buff for the talented thief that lands backstab, while punishing untalented thieves that spam backstab on blinds/aegis/evades. This is a nerf to bad thieves and a buff to good ones. It’s unfortunate that you can’t grasp that.

These do nothing to solve the so-called “problem”. If anything, it will make people just want to spam stealth and backstabs even more due to its increased efficiency to the point where the ability would be blatantly overpowered.

I mean I don’t see why you support removing “spamming” while in stealth to make the skill hit once but instead support buffing the skill to the point where you’d just get one-shotted by any real stab thief.

Honestly, the better players are the ones that already land the stabs. It might be spammy, but a dodge roll prevents this skill from working without the thief needing to re-stealth. If thieves didn’t have a short stealth duration, I’d agree here, but simply, most defenses or evades used properly will force additional initiative burn (and thus reducing damage from almost all builds) and open an opportunity to counter-play. I do this constantly on my own thief against other D/D thieves by actually baiting their combo and eating half of it, recovering with a heal, and killing them instantly as soon as they lose stealth because they let their guard down.

And trust me, it would lead to immense QQ. My stabs already land for 14-21k. Additional damage, coming from a damage junkie, just seems excessive, and it would only lead to more QQ because I always hit it. Actually, the reason why the stab “spamming” is a problem at all is because thieves in general have either gotten good and learned to land their stabs all the time, or because their opponents were too slow/do not know how to counter properly. It just makes the problem at hand way worse. And I see no reason to face unnecessary future nerfs.

Fact of the matter is your concern lies more with high stealth uptime/re-acquisition over the ability to spam stabs. More often than not it comes from the thief’s ability to re-gain stealth so easily, especially on D/P, after failing a stab/combo.

Likely the case as well. Tax laws are a whole big jumble and don’t play well together (that’s what accountants are for), so who really knows exactly where the money’s going haha. All I know is the government has been cracking down on digital sales for the past few years.

Capitol City.4856:

I want to elaborate on the OP by explaining what the zerker meta doesn’t entail as opposed to what it does entail.

First of all, elitists aren’t the problem with the zerker meta. No matter what the meta is, elitists would ask that you carry that particular meta build. Zerker just happens to be the current meta, but if we were to replace it with something else, elitists would be just as vigilant in making sure that their party members kept to the new meta. In short, the zerker meta doesn’t spawn elitists, MMO’s do.

Secondly, a simple nerf to zerker gear would do absolutely nothing, zerker gear isn’t overpowered. Let me explain. The current meta is to kill as quickly as possible, using non-stat defenses such as blinds and aegis to keep damage off the players. If we were to nerf zerker gear, the new meta would be whatever stat set did the most damage. Nerfing stats won’t do anything except shift the name of meta to whatever stat set is currently doing the most damage.

As the OP said, the reason zerker meta is such a problem is the lack of build diversity. There’s 1-2 builds per class that would excel in our current dungeon meta, and none of them run any other stats except damage stats.

Before anyone says it, we understand that you CAN find a group with casual players who don’t require zerker gear, and that zerker gear isn’t necessary to complete dungeons. That’s hardly the point. The point is, for veteran players, there comes a point where build diversity closes itself off to the easiest, fastest option. The zerker meta. And when that happens, dungeons become tedious and boring.

With Heart of Thorns being released, it’s been speculated that new instances will open, whether they be dungeons or raids matters little to me. What I’m hoping is that regardless of whatever instanced challenges may come, that we’ll see a fix in the zerker meta and narrow build options before then.

At the very least you get it. People seem to really fail to recognize optimization strategies always exist and are almost always based upon time of completion or time to achieve a goal; I.E., by boosting success chance of something you may only be allowed to try a limited number of times per unit of time.

The problem is sadly unsolvable; if not berserker GS warriors, for instance as some people declare it to be (despite it not being so for most content), it’ll just be something else in place of it (such as might rifle engis) once discovered.

Trinity or no trinity, options or not, there will always be a single optimization strategy that is just better than the rest. The only thing to do to counter this is to force encounters to take a pre-specified, fixed amount of time, in which case, DPS is out by many, and durability is in for reliability’s sake.

A noble aspiration, but an impossible one.

A lot of states have recently changed tax laws regarding digital purchases. I know only a few months ago several of the laws were changed in my state regarding digital purchase, gift card purchases for websites, and so on. Actually, an Amazon warehouse was approved to be built in my state recently only if Amazon forced its customers in the state to pay sales tax, otherwise it was to be rejected.

Sad to say it’s probably changes in state legislation on your end, or where GW2 is operating, or there’s other legislation regarding income. Either way, ANet claiming the money as tax collection and it not being so would be fraud and they’d get sued and probably shut down quickly; not something I see a multi-hundred-million-dollar company doing :P

Continued from above…

The trinity does not solve any metagame existence problems. This is a fact, since the trinity is an optimization strategy as all metagame strategies are. All it does is force one upon the players and make content slower to do since it requires certain classes, builds, and gear combinations to allow for the completion of content.

This is why, and why it will always be, that there is more diversity in say, GW2, than a game like LOTRO; each class may still build DPS and be in a party; the party still is equally diverse as a game with a DPS-tank-healer trinity as long as the party in GW2 has more than two different classes in it. Why? Because your LOTRO party still only has three different styles/builds, as those builds and styles are tied to class, and there’s no room for variance. At least there is further variance/optimization available by replacing classes within that party in GW2.

There will always exist one optimization strategy. Be it a dual-healer + tank + ranged DPS + melee DPS in a forced-trinity game like LOTRO, or 5 DPS of one class like in GW2; it doesn’t matter. True game balance is impossible and subsequently numbers can and will be run to determine the best possible course of action. The only reason we’re not there yet is because of limitations in computing power and slight variances of response time due to human nature and technological limitations such as latency issues and variations between physical hardware.

There will always be a meta people disagree with. This game decided to cater to those who disagree with the traditional trinity. Don’t like it? Look elsewhere or find people who don’t care if you don’t play using a metagame strategy. And trust me, it’s not hard to do.

Also, TERA is less successful than GW2. Your statement about it being more “successful” lacks context in all regards and is based only upon your statement that you prefer its style better.

Nekroseth.5186:

I could write a book on what the problems are, but let me summ it up :

1, Its boring since there are no combat roles, you cant costumize your gameplay AT ALL. Wont matter what class you play, it feels almost the same. Its actually making the game less rpg then other mmo-s. And its funny since you promised it will be MORE of an rpg then other mmo-s.
You promised, that we can do it all, but in reality you cant do ANY of it. Since you took them all away. How can TAKING be more? (unless its extremely complex and is more of a problem then good…its not the case here)
Not to mention FAVORITISM is not on the same level its WORSE then in other mmo-s. It didnt fix LFG ing…its TERRIBLE in the game.
I would rather wait 10 min more for a “healer” then have a kitten to the core combat system.

I mean for kitten sake, look at Tera…its a c category game, and is still more successfull, since it has a really good combat part.

2, Its dodge or “die”. Its simple as that…thats combat….Spot the 0.3 sec cast hand gesture in the 2 billion firestorms, and dodge it. If you cant you get downed, and thats all you do is…run and get downed ppl up….Kills the whole tactical sense of the game.
I would let ppl take 2-3 hits instead of instagibbing them, and remove downed state. . . .It would make heals to have atleast a MINOR sense even if there is no trinity…BUT NO ANET GIVES A kitten on bothering or admiting how kitten combat is.

These are only the tips of the ice berg….but fanatic fans wont admit it….I was once one…in Gw1….sorry but Gw2 is just kitten as it is, and mostly thx to the terrible design…Trinity could fix it…but tards wont admit it..

Except the customization is there. People just don’t make up their own builds. The community in MMO’s these days consists of too many people demanding for diversity while simultanously googling the most min-maxed and powerful builds possible. This problem has to do with the community and general communication in these games; theorycrafters optimize a build or class or stratgy, it catches on, and a meta happens. Before I made my build, I never asked for help, because I took the direction I wanted my character to go in, and was always looking for improvement.

No metagame will change my pride in my character or build because I’m the one who invented it. There are a lot of people running different builds than me, and others do. I created my own diversity for a long time. Don’t be a sheep, and it doesn’t matter.

Tell me, have you ever looked up a build or strategy? Now imagine you never did, or recall a time before you did. Did it change the way you played or viewed the game? Did it change the way you viewed your character as unique?

The trinity – the meta – whatever it may be – it’s all conceptual, and it will always exist.
The trinity itself is a meta. It’s just one forced upon by the developers instead of the players. If you time-gate all dungeons such that each segment acted a a wave-survival area, the berserker meta would be dead, since dungeon completion time would be fixed and thus DPS not necessary. Or more fights where glass dies instantly and constantly like Teq and the meta evolves into tankier styles. The same with WvW.

Continued below…

Steal already has too many traits designed around it, though. Fact of the matter is the class needs huge changes in regards to how it deals damage and deals with incoming damage.

The problem lies in that the thief finds itself in almost every build dependent on stealth in one way or another, and building into stealth is never really a sacrifice.

What is tied to stealth and only accessible through the use of stealth primarily?

- Damage
- Control
- Condition Cleansing
- Mitigation

So what’s left when you aren’t using stealth at all? Not much. The thief’s dependence on stealth comes from a few factors:

- Nerfed or sub-par skill coefficients on most non-stealth abilities

- Low-tier base health

- The worst condition cleansing in the game while not using stealth

- Little/No access to defensive options outside of evasion or stealth (I.E., no stability, protection, aegis, toughness, armor effects, etc.

- Poorly-designed traits which do not reward any other kinds of play

- Overly-effective traits mandatory for what may be regarded as basic class functionality by negating the above within the Shadow Arts line and on-stealth effects.

- From-stealth attacks being the primary way to deal damage to one’s target overall.

And what is rewarded for playing without stealth?

- Pistol Whip and Unload builds. Usually underwhelming and sub-optimal.

- Revealed training, but even that requires stealth to begin with, and it doesn’t really do anything.

These phenomenon occur due to the initiative system. Stealth and revealed create a pseudo-cooldown on skills like backstab and Sneak Attack, but consequently these skills are what define builds as these are really the only high damage skills available on the bar. Of course, if you then remove the stealth dependency, then you just have OP non-stealth skills and people using stealth more to hide and recover from attacks. Sadly, even the smallest amount of damage dealt to the thief can be fatal. I recall fighting a S/S war today in WvW, and had to ditch the scene due to the fact my heal was blown and I was on three stacks of bleeds. Moral of the story is that I went down to 20% hp just from three bleeds and had no way to deal with it as I don’t use Shadow Arts. Even Shadowstep’s condition cleansing would put me on a position where I would get the war on lower hp but would still lose the fight if I stayed in the fray from a lack of cleanses. Don’t even get me started on torment and confusion which cannot be removed remotely reliably by this class without either use of Shadowstep, spamming 2 on S/D (possibly killing you from confusion), or Shadow Arts + stealth.

How to fix this problem? I’d start by taking a look at under-performing weapon skills and do some reworks there to allow for some cleansing, and nerf that of Shadow Arts such that it’s a cleanse on losing stealth and not per 3 seconds while in stealth. Death blossom could use a condition shed by removing say, three conditions, and re-directing them in random directions as projectiles like throw gunk to nearby attackers (with a potential nerf to the bleed duration/stacks applied by DB). Body Shot could afford to be totally re-designed as a power-based skill with some potential cleansing for P/P users, S/x already has one, and D/P would just need to use the SA trait as it does now and play more aggressively instead of just spamming HS through BP.

The lack of staying power and damage from other skills is what forces people into playing stealth builds.

Though P/D dire perplexity is just overpowered from a diverse pool of high stacks of the best conditions in the game. Kind of like PU condi mesmer, though.

So basically then when a guard’s passive aegis pops during CnD and then he pops it again during stab, the thief should be left with 0 initiative and out of stealth after two tries. So no skill use and no damage left. Do that and I’d demand for all other classes to see their cooldowns to not tick down while auto-attacking or using other skills. That’s basically what you’ve asked to happen.

No, that’s not at all a good idea. Maybe the guard should be less braindead and dodge when the aegis gets popped a second time, or any other class not be stupid and dodge roll to make all of the stab attempts fail to begin with.

That is, unless you want to put skills like CnD on a 4 initiative cost, but then D/P would still be overpowered and Shadow Arts/stealth builds would be even stronger than they currently are.

So no.

Thing is, even as a thief main since BWE, a lot of this is justified.

I actually believe HS on the high HP end should be nerfed further and the low end be buffed as a finsher. I’m sick of HS spammers using it for damage because it’s easy. It’s an insult to D/D mains.

PW was just too strong and too spammable from BWE. It made dagger builds pretty pointless before the nerfs. Same reason it got an initiative bump.

Have you seen my backstab damage? You must be unfamiliar with my build and just how absolutely ridiculous AS was before when used right. Its spread is justified in that it’s also a smaller nerf than what one might first expect due to the fact AS can be applied to mug/CnD, keeping the damage dealt overall pretty similar. I’ll show you what I mean by it would be overpowered in a screen below.

CnD’s nerf was justified when people were playing all berserker builds in a capture and hold format. The change is irrelevant these days, though (and one I do believe should be changed back), for the meta has changed dramatically and the damage offered by critical attacks lowered in general paired with the overall higher durability from everyone in sPvP.

Dancing Dagger was proving to be too good before its reduction as it had more bounces and more damage, allowing it when used against a group of two to hit harder than a backstab. Reasonable adjustment to damage but not enough utility added/initiative cost changed. It remains a niche skill that can be devastating, though I believe the initiative cost could be reduced.

Detonate Cluster just proved to be better than the un-detonated bomb, so yea.

Revealed is still 3secs in PvE/WvW. Done to keep perma-stealth builds in check in regards to combat prowess/punish perma-stealth builds. Negated some by RT, though the power line generally speaking is ineffective.

Quickness was global. I think it hurt the thief a lot less than say, longbow ranger (RF used to be about as fast as it is now with QZ) and GS warrior (I mean have you seen the old HB videos with Frenzy?). S/P still can reliably strike due to its stun and shorter duration.

BV’s nerf wasn’t so much about the immob but the stone status. Immob would require a stunbreak + cleanse, which is too strong. Stone used to not interrupt, but ignored stability. Justified and reasonable overall.

Mug crits pertains to my damage thing again. The fact I could one-shot any berserker build in the game (or come damage close) while under the effects of CC from range with medium or lower HP is and was absolutely ridiculous to the point where I’m glad they recognized this earlier.

Shortbow nerf in general was deserved on the range, but the lack of a 1200 range option isn’t. The class should have received the longbow as compensation.

Shadow Return was too strong. Condi cleanse, stun break, engage tool, disengage tool, all nicely packaged with a long duration and no cooldown/cast time with low initiative cost. S/D was just too strong.

The entire existence of FS/LS is a hodge-podge of changes. This skill has been reworked so many times that I don’t even know if ANet knows what’s right for it.
(FS used to not have a second part of the skill and was on a higher damage coefficient making spamming 3 for permanent evades a viable strategy). The boon steal is too good in non-boon aspects of the game, so it probably got toned down in that regard. It’s only not OP as 2 on the basis that it’s what actually makes the class useful in sPvP atm.

Shortbow evade is kind of the same deal as the old FS: too much evasion and not enough opportunity cost. Even then, it still has a huge evade frame compared to say, death blossom, while allowing a very controllable re-position.

Choking gas used to be why zergs in WvW ran negative condition duration food. Now it’s necromancers, but the moral of the story is the same.

Overall effectiveness of regeneration was improved with the effects nerfed to give pseudo-cooldowns. It has netted an overall buff to the thief as a whole. The change to Infusion of Shadow was absolutely required and I’m so happy it happened. No more 5 -> 2 -> 2 -> 2 -> 2 -> repeat noobs spamming heartseeker in permanent stealth covered by blind fields.

BP was warranted because it offered too much utility in one skill with a low opportunity cost.

Not saying the thief deserves to be as weak as it is, but for the most part these nerfs got rid of massive gimmicks and has made the class more challenging rather than was just used to be a class anyone could play and spam gimmicks to victory.

The class just needs improvements on existing mechanics and some skills while the rest of the classes need their gimmicks to be toned down.

Screen is me hitting a guardian with no food/stacks long after the AS change (see RT) before my more recent build adjustment to allow for more damage. Assassin’s signet and mug crits on damage like that would be stupidly strong.

I believe it was at PAX they stated that Caithe’s skills were blatantly overpowered. I doubt they’d decide to make those part of a specialization lol.

And frankly, they were OP. No, I’d expect specializations to be based around ranged combat options.

Lettuce.2945:

Maybe the elite that Caithe or whatever the sylvari’s name was…That allows for like 20 seconds of perma stealth even if you use backstab.

Can’t tell if serious or trolling.

A great post, but if they’re not willing to learn how to beat thieves, they’re not willing to learn they’re wrong.

GuzziHero.2467:

What the game needs is for toughness, vitality, condi damage and healing to mean something.

Longer encounters does not necessarily mean more challenge unless that challenge also has more than insta-ganks that wipe you whatever stats you have.

I am all for adding the requirement for healing/tanking in harder encounters, but this can be done without going full Holy Trinity. There is a lot of grey area between the black of DPS-only and the white of Trinity that can and should be exploited.

The ramp-up time of most condi damage is an issue. It needs to deal maximum ticks at the time of infliction, then peter out, rather than build up. Otherwise it will always be less efficient than straight up damage. Likewise, enemies should be able to damage in ways that are not BOOM SHAKE THE ROOM insta-gank. There needs to be an opportunity for a support/healing equipped player to assist his team, provide boons and healing, whilst still being able to participate in damage to the enemy.

Surely a system exists which allows all classes and builds to be at least partially self-reliant whilst also having a role to play in group vs challenging encounters situations.

These stats already do mean something, though. Have you paid attention to WvW or sPvP?

Or just noted the ridiculous of how much mitigation actually exists when running a true tank?

Conditions can’t be reworked that way. Duration would be even more overpowered than it currently is, and the wait between applications would need to be increased by a factor of something like 20 to make builds not just be blatantly overpowered.

Conditions deal less DPS than berserker builds currently only because of stack capping. In sinister gear, a condition user depending on build may and likely will out-damage that of a berserker player. Any other combination must and rightfully will do lower damage than berserker on the basis that all other condition damage sets have a defensive attribute.

The content for GW2 is explicitly designed to allow for any group composition to beat any content with enough skill such that there are no waiting queues to play/beat content. This is a core principle of their game design and why we do not have any kind of trinity. The only way to get “roles” is to force a particular class/build on any given group – which is exactly the opposite of their design intentions/why many people still play this game – or to allow for supportive players to net speed of completion increases in PvE.

Thing is, the meta will always rule something out in optimized play focusing on speed runs. The only way to include diverse parties in a competitive meta is to either force a trinity or to reach true game balance, which is impossible.

The bottom line is that if you want to play in an optimized setting in any game, it’s likely you’re going to be do something you enjoy less than something else, so why then bother to create a forced trinity which makes getting into the game content slower and more painful?

Non-speed groups usually don’t care, anyways. For those who complain, look at LFG. I’ve gone into CoF’s explorable paths under-leveled and in green gear with no build on multiple alts and have not been kicked from almost every group I’ve joined.

The meta is player-created based upon speed of completion. The composition of the meta is arbitrary, for if someone discovers a faster way, that will be adopted to the meta, and so on.

Except as someone who’s leveled six characters through it, and eight more before it was implemented, it actually is just awful.

Not to mention over a dozen of RL friends who joined the game after the NPE/trait rework and quit on the basis that the progession felt too unrewarding, too slow, and simply didn’t give them the tools needed to fully experience and immerse themselves in what the game has to offer by being gated from content.

Glad to see they’re attempting to resolve the issue, though.

Zero Day.2594:

Duelist – go toe-to-toe with opponents stealthless (more defenses outside of stealth), perhaps swords/greatswords.
Assassin – Just as squishy as it is now, relies on stealth (and maybe venoms), focuses on bursting down targets – and then probably dieing. Who knows what weapon.
Bandit – focuses on ambushing, trapping (since ANet has a kitten for traps… chances are there will be a trapping spec). Maybe rifle?

I’m for the duelist concept, but I would like to see more stress on stealth-less play in general. True assassination spike builds don’t use stealth so much as incredible gap-closing and pressure. I’d honestly forgo stealth altogether if I could still hit for backstabs, and would like to see condition removal options available for those not using Shadow Arts.

I’m hoping we don’t see a rifle spec on the basis that I feel like it would share too much with the pistol (especially P/P); emphasis on the gunpowder/blinds and sustained single-target damage is just boring, mobility doesn’t fit the rifle concept for the game/class, and we’ve already got a burst damage mechanic. While 1200 range single-target DPS is great, I feel like the similarities are too big to warrant its implementation without de-valuing P/P, and if it’s just an AOE build (which makes no sense on rifles), people would just run it for tagging and nothing else.

D/P is absolutely and arguably the most viable thief build available. Looks to me like you’re using a WvW build.

Divinity runes got nerfed so they’re pretty much worthless to have. Those need to be switched with something like scholars or strength.

The traits look a bit off, but overall not unreasonable. You’re kind of riding an awkward setup in the Critical Strikes line. SA is fine, though some people prefer hidden thief over infusion. Thrill of the Crime is a much better choice in the Trickery line over long reach.

I’m not sure what utilities you run, but I think your crit strikes line could look something more like 1/6/12, or if you still prefer, 3/6/11, depending on what you’re trying to do. I’m under the assumption you’re not using a build with more than one signet and are probably focusing on backstabbing for damage, thus ruling out the usefulness of signet use with an emphasis on securing critical attacks.

If you’re in sPvP, you’re out of luck on stab builds altogether. Most thieves now use builds focusing on Acrobatics and Trickery to stack might and turn fights from even numbers into favorable numbers/finish foes off. The thief is very weak in sPvP at the moment.

For WvW, dire condition builds are the roaming meta; so you’re fighting substantially tankier targets than you probably were a year+ ago when most roaming players were also in berserker stats. You’re also running cavalier armor which will reduce your power stat and subsequently cut damage. Ferocity, when it was implemented, nerfed critical damage dealt by around 15%, so that is also cutting your damage.

Huge-damage stab builds are pretty much locked into signets, which you can find my build posted in the “Show your thief build” stickied thread here. I do believe mine was posted fairly recently so it shouldn’t be too hard to find.

The meta has evolved and players have gotten more skilled to better counter thieves in general. Currently the class is in a weird limbo of having the best PvE damage in the game while suffering in the PvP formats from utility problems and previous damage nerfs paired with metas based around more or less durability and the exploitation of gimmicky mechanics which the thief has few ways to deal with.

I’ve had decent success with an evasion P/P initiative regen build in WvW roaming. It’s not the fastest killer, but it can survive quite well when using blinds properly.

Very much a reactive build; you can’t aggress with it. If you try to strike first, you’ll probably lose, but if you play on the defensive and apply pressure properly, it works quite well. Much more mobile to force foes to blow cooldowns to keep up.

P/P healing is actually very solid in sPvP, though. I ran/run a cleric’s/dwayna bunker setup focused entirely on healing huge amounts of health very quickly (Shadow Arts with HiS + leeching venoms on unload, anyone?) with limited dependency on staying in stealth and an extra emphasis on just keeping BP on point and surrounding me. Obviously not a damage dealer, but surprisingly tanky, and really funny when going into the occasional duel arena and stale-mating against D/D eles and terrormancers, and just straight up outlasting thieves since the burst is often too low to take me down.

If the videos above showed anything, though, it displayed how ridiculously forgiving and over-useful the shadow arts line is while the rest of the class suffers. I’m not sure when that footage was taken (and I’m on DB with no idea who half of those guilds were), but there were a lot of mistakes made in that video that would have easily forced any other thief build to go down instantly.

Still would prefer longbow.

Rifles are so clunky, and the “stand back and pew pew” doesn’t belong on thief at all.

Not to mention animations and models. Very un-thief-like to be firing a blunderbuss from the hip lol.

Zero Day.2594:

So, someone pointed out something interesting on the PvP forums.
We don’t know if specs, and what the add onto the class, will be carried into PvP/WvW/outside of the jungle…

If it’s PvE only, and can’t be carried outside of the jungle… then I could careless.

Otherwise, I hope it’s not a trap skill… because if you look at the elites, they’re missing a trap skill… but I don’t think many like traps… But this is ANet making the skills, and they do have a venom and trap fetish… so… yeah…

That said, new elites could contain signets, which currently no classes have on an elite aside from warrior.

kitten shame. I decided to forgo PAX East this year as I’d be needing to take time off and didn’t expect anything from ANet/GW2 other than just a marketing booth. Would have been nice to try the beta :P

Expect to see one specialization per class at the launch of the expansion. I reckon feature patches beyond it will contain more specializations. This is an experimental platform which can allow for long-term growth and can freely be expanded upon. It very much resembles Pathfinder Archetypes, which allow for deep build customization.

I wouldn’t expect to see too much at the launch, however adding in an additional option would have been a smarter way to demonstrate the capabilities of the platform/prove there is more incoming in the future regarding specializations.

Specializations will likely add a few new traits and swap in/swap out skills and available weapons. I do believe they are made more for catering to the style of play/theme of a character more so than just adding new weapons; if specialization = new weapon, then there’s no point in adding the specializations, seeing as they could have just added the option for a new weapon.

Which makes me inclined to believe that there will need to be more than one specialization available to each class, otherwise it’s either just a straight-up upgrade or alternative, which could have also just been defined by adding in new traits and allowing for the existing classes to get new weapon options with no additional layer of complexity.

They may not release with more than one specialization, but I would expect more to come. What is does create is a platform that can easily be expanded upon; classes now have mechanisms to get constantly-new ways of playing through the use of specializations without changing the base skills, and some previously non-viable or non-existent builds can be allowed into other game modes.