Guild Wars 2

While condition diversity is definitely important, a DB rotation can stack 15 bleeds versus 9, and with uncatchable and caltrops in the mix paired with immob like panic strike, Devourer, SB stealth #1, and cripple from Dancing Dagger, there’s a ton of disabling conditions which can help lock down those bleeds easily to 25. Upping the target cap could be acceptable, though as far as directional targeting goes, I’m not sure if I agree it’s necessary; the skill does cause you to travel exactly the direction you’re facing just like using HS for mobility purposes. It lets the caster cut down on APM/potential casting delays with minimal impact on performance. I’d personally rather have the system handle that stuff for me due to the many instances of lag I’ve had where the different actions of targeted casting have caused bugs or problematic delays. That’s just me, though, and I think that’s very much personal preference at that point. On-crit sigils and rune effects, be it krait frequently working with BV or perplexity depending on the mode, paired with CnD’s vuln stacks can allow for substantial condition diversity overall. It’s not like what engineers bring, but those are arguably a lot more powerful as a class to the point where nerfs pretty much anywhere to the class are pretty justified.

Of course, from a vanilla perspective and DoT point of view, yes, the set is lacking for condition players, and frankly, this is something that I believe cannot be resolved without substantial changes to how the class plays; ultimately more condition diversity is tied to having condition access to multiple skills, which is usually included with the explicit implementations of condition damage-based sets. From this standpoint, anything necessary to make DB a potent condi build skill would make the skill too powerful in it of itself if the rest of the build requires none of the other skills on the bar to function, which makes the set under a condition build be too effective in terms of APM : damage/usability and/or providing an excess of utility reducing the skill component of the build.

The only thing I could think of would be to allow for the addition of a condi applicator skill from stealth not tied to stab or HS to avoid conflicts with power builds, but with P/D being so strong, I have to question whether or not it’d be a good idea due to how absolutely faceroll easy P/D already is for its ridiculous effectiveness. Giving Dancing Dagger a PBAoE bleed applicator on top of its cripple from stealth to compete with Sneak Attack might be reasonable, but then it just begs the question as to why not just play P/D since there’s already more diversity and better bleed/torment stacking in general, or if too effective, would just be a straight up buff to P/D.

Ensign.2189:

Maugetarr.6823:

I guess I’m “meh” about the number of targets.

Think of it this way. There are two audiences that you want to make happy with a set of changes. First, you have people using the set for its primary play pattern of high burst, that want to see Death Blossom be a defensive tool to compliment that pattern and don’t really care about its damage. Second, you have people who like the secondary pattern of balling up enemies in Caltrops and using it to stack a bunch of bleeds, who really care about how much bleeding it can put out and care much less about any defense on the skill.

To keep the skill at an appropriate power level, the more damage the skill does, the less room for utility there is in its power budget, which fundamentally puts these two patterns at odds over what to do with the skill.

The advantage of a higher target cap and larger AoE is that it adds substantial power to the secondary pattern but essentially no power to the primary pattern. If you raised the AoE and target cap, but lowered the bleeding duration, it would still be a substantial buff to the skill for the players who like stacking bleeds on targets in Caltrops, who will hit the bleed cap anyway – but a big nerf to it in dueling situations; it would also be a much larger nerf to builds without +condition duration, as the bleeds would be more likely to expire before the target does, while on a dedicated condition thief with stacked bleed duration the nerf would be more muted, allowing for even bigger cuts in condition duration without substantially harming the secondary pattern.

That damage nerf in a dueling situation leaves more PvP power budget for additional utility – more evasion, projectile reflection, etc – which is what the primary pattern needs if the set is going to be a niche set in competitive play.

Essentially, the per-target damage is what is holding the skill back from getting the changes it needs. If that can be lowered, while adding tools to both sides that don’t impact the other as much (more targets in a higher area for PvE bleed stackers, evasion for PvP), then I think both patterns can be happy with a set of changes that enhance their specific role without making the skill crazy overpowered.

You’re correct in why they’re at odds, but again the big problem is that it seems simply impossible to really adjust utility/defensive options of the skill to favor power builds while not overly-buffing condition/hybrid ones. Giving DB more utility with no trade-off in terms of damage output for condition users only makes the skill even more overly-rewarding and pushes condi/hybrid players to playing even more condi-heavy due to its crazy performance for them. Buffing the utility makes spamming 3 just more viable while not diversifying the way the set is played, and ultimately doesn’t leave a lot of room for power-based utilitiy buffs since that utility gain needs to be considered when buffing DB at all. It’s basically kind of like a condi player asking for backstab to give distortion since the evade frame on DB is poor and condition players want to build aggressively and use DB safely for condition bursting. The problem then is that backstab also becomes just way too strong on power builds by giving it unnecessary amounts of utility.

There’s a limited budget on both ends and they’re both conflicting in both demands and that the styles themselves have pretty much opposite strengths/weaknesses making any kind of adjustment extremely difficult.

You can join party member’s megaserver map instance by right clicking their party icon and joining them.

I think the megaserver issue is more prominent in EU than NA due to language barriers, but I haven’t had any real problems so far. Most of my logins are with people eclusively from my own server and I’ve had few issues trying to get to my party. Of course that’s why you can also use the join option.

Correct, which is what I was kind of inferring to in the regards that conditions do not allow for the existence of hybrid builds. This locking out of possibilities is what I believe is a flaw due to the fact the game could have seen DoT effects without the necessity of multiple different stats required for damage scaling. If say, critical conditions were introduced, and baseline conditions nerfed, would we see adjustments in condi builds in PvP environments? I’m frankly not sure, and DoT builds do have the right to better sustain, however that’s a bonus designed in a way to be offered by the weapon sets and traits themselves rather than defensive stats from gear.

As far as DB goes, though, absolutely. I think most people are in agreement DB doesn’t need power scaling because it would be redundant; the problem is condition builds gaining the utility D/D as a set needs on top of a crazy existing bleed source is something players as a whole (except maybe a few select D/D condi players) would believe to be overpowered on bleed builds on the basis that it would possibly offer too much reward for too little risk. Damage optimization may come from intermittent stabs depending on the target, but I would believe the damage from DB on a dedicated bleed build would offer very similar damage overall.

Thus why the debate on this is unsolvable in regards to the above suggestions/there is known solution to the dilemma of how to improve general usability to the thief, and ultimately it’s just more logical to take the minority and give them what they want stylistically on another, new weapon combination.

Your points are valid for the most part, however the thing is if it’s viable for hybrid building, by most players’ standards it’s viable for conditions, and in many cases, subsequently stronger in WvW due to access to dire gear. DB is not an easy case because it’s disputed territory; power players are desperate for an emphasis on the utility due to the lack of utility in any form from corresponding trait lines, and condition/hybrid players want more out of the set in general/do not want to see any nerfs/bleed removal to improve their build viability through DPS and do not wish to lose their only fom of condition application on the set (aside from poison on D/x auto chain, but poison alone isn’t killing anyone).

S/x builds are definitely power-based, but are encompassing totally different styles of play and have completely different uses. I’d like to see more diversity within the hybrid/condition build realm on the thief and thus a tone-down for P/D, but the issue is that converting any existing sets to be more focused on hybrid/condition builds is just effectively the same as removing death blossom’s bleed for a rework on the skill to favor power builds’ demands. Condition weapon application is in general lower than power builds, so also understand that when looking towards other sets. Warriors only have sword and longbow with mace if traited for interrupts, rangers only shortbow and torch, guards have no condition/hybrid sets, etc.

Ultimately, death blossom pretty much needs something for it to make D/D as a set more viable. Currently, the set itself has limited viability in PvP environments due to its absolute lack of utility for power builds and lack of widespread conditions for hybrids and condition builds. The power build is in a better state overall, is used frequently in PvE due to its high damage and cheap stabs, and Dagger offhand can’t afford condition buffs due to P/D’s excessive power. We’re left with changing heartseeker and the auto-chain, and those are two skills fiercely needed for power D/D’s viability in general, and buffing the auto-chain or stab to apply more condition pressure wouldn’t be well-received.

Thus I can think of only two options, really; either a specialization rework for the set such that it can play similarly for both builds (I.E., backstab dependency for its main damage source with aggressive damage and limited utility from 3/4), or a new weapon combination/new weapons available to thieves planning on taking the hybrid approach such that the minority of D/D hybrid/condi players can at least have something similar in style while DB gets altered to better-fit power players, as forcing the power/crit D/D majority to a new weapon is just silly seeing as well, it’s a majority with clear weapon design goals favoring towards power-based players.

Like I said, P/P is an “attempt” – and a very unsuccessful one at that. Conditions in their current state are also flawed in their design in that they inhibit the development of hybrid builds by polarizing either high scaling favoring power or large condition application/sustaining better-suited for tankier, condi-only approaches, which also benefit better from low-power-scaling skills paired with condition application since the power is meaningless, anyways.

Ferocity and condition duration effects are big culprits here, as they modify the two in a multiplicative fashion, creating bigger gaps between hybrid players and those on one extreme. Dedicated hybrids without absurd might-stacking sadly aren’t or are barely in a meta, and in the game’s current state, will never be in a meta on the basis that metagame strategies are defined by effective yields and number-crunching, which will pretty much always declare one as the victor over another. The only real “exception” I can currently think of is D/D celestial elementalist due to burning having such high condition damage scaling and overall up-time/fast re-application, and the build having so much might stacking. We already understand the intentions of ANet here by the nerf of the burning and might to help inhibit this.

Aside from P/P healing power trolling, in sPvP every day is a bad day on the thief because I realize I could be contributing way more on another class.

Most SA thieves are also bad and do not comprehend the basics of damage avoidance/skill/encounter interactions due to SA acting as a crutch for their lack of playing ability.

Leo G.4501:

I find it funny how elitists meta players are dictating what a hybrid build is and does. You point to pistol/dagger as a better option because of the extra condis but that’s not what hybrids do. You often focus on 1, maybe 2 condition sources, eek out enhanced performance from them but ultimately focus on power. You can do that with a lot of options but I feel daggers do it best because of the speed and versatility/mobility. You don’t need to condi bomb to hybrid. But you do need good fast direct damage to.

But if the devs are changing anything about the skill, removing or decreasing the pause at the end after you land would help everyone. No need to remove or change the nature of the attack. Just because you bemoan it as an unfit condi move doesn’t make it so, it’s an attrition move meant to stall.

This is a reasonable and seemingly logical approach, but the problem remains that the initiative system prevents this from working well in terms of game balance; extending the effectiveness of a condition applicator via durability is one thing, but it becomes a whole other thing when that effect for a reasonable amount of time has no cooldown and there are many systems in place which can easily and instantly reset said cooldown while also retaining that mitigation during casting. The last thing we want to see is a D/D thief spamming 3 to beat people because of it’s absolutely astonishing bleed application while remaining pretty much invincible for an extended period of time with the capacity to reset its initiative and keep evading from utilities which reset and refund initiative. Do recall that teleports do not interrupt current actions; one can steal during DB’s evade frames to guarantee hits and a safe re-engage, refund initiative, etc.

That’s the inherent problem; this skill can’t just be buffed to include hybrid builds, and frankly, shouldn’t be. Meta players do not set the standard for class design, either. Meta players set the standard for balance decisions. The design comes from the developers, and only players themselves decide which approach to take when playing.

Ultimately, D/D is largely an audience of people who play exclusively for big numbers focusing on damage throughputs through power. D/P is for those who want more skirmishing, P/D is a condi set, and P/P is an attempt at hybrid.

I subsequently don’t want to face nerfs as a power player to D/D because a minority of players want some buffs to hybrid D/D, and I don’t want DB buffed because it then just makes 3spam overly-effective. Condition builds are already overly-effective in PvP environments for their risk, and that’s a consensus the top players in the world have even reached.

The problem is that there seems to be no good way to change this skill to help both groups of players of the build while retaining the difficulty of the setup in general while giving a slight boost in performance to each build in different areas.

That’s why I genuinely believe a new weapon needs to be devised with the hybrid approach applied there from its inception rather than trying to rework what is an aggressive power set at its core into something that it simply wasn’t designed to be.

It’s heavily influenced by matchups.

I dislike any perma-stealth build because I think SA is too rewarding and the rest of the trait lines/build options out there are not. It’s really not so much the stealth that keeps thieves alive but Shadow Arts letting them be so durable while under the effects of stealth from rejuv or resilience + condition cleansing.

Against a good one… there really isn’t much of a counter, to be honest. It’s why I’m a big proponent of reducing the effectiveness of shadow arts in favor of improving the effectiveness of the class slightly across the board for all builds, allowing for SA players to play their stealthing builds while facing the same bonuses/penalties as non-stealth builds.

The problem lies more with too much necessary power/basic class functionality in the SA line synergizing too well with stealth moreso than D/P itself as a weapon set or stealth builds in general.

Depends heavily on the format, the builds involved, and the scenario.

In PvE/WvW, thieves out-damage longbow rangers, but not sword rangers. In PvP, with the current meta and thief status from repeated nerfs to power MH dagger, ranger out-damages thief, considering most thief builds cannot afford to run as offensive as they pretty much need to.

I do believe there’s a pathing check made to determine if the targeted location is close enough.

It’s pretty much just practice and knowing. A lot of the models have also been changed in time to prevent a lot of this and other bugs from occurring.

Hard to come up with a good scheme to resolve the issue for all terrain types. Maybe some kind of orange + black-colored circle using stripe-patterned indicators for incoming enemy effects? I don’t think making it a different solid color would help at all, especially since terrains/textures can and will change and it subsequently may cause limitations in the future as well.

Obviously nothing is perfect in that regard due to the inability for color-blind players to make out the very fine changes in color on the ground, but I think maybe these mixed would create a relatively safe means of keeping them identifiable from terrain and allied indicators?

I know ANet stated this was something they were planning on addressing a LONG time ago. Would be nice to see these options pursued more over UI reworks which end up being largely detrimental.

It’s likely a move to try and force the company to close down the road. Nexon is a disgusting excuse for a company equivalent in services provided to phone scammers. Actually, I believe I’ve been treated better by scammers over the phone.

They have no interest in GW2 or NCSoft’s titles, being a direct competitor; it’s simply unwise for the NC execs to even consider this kind of notion. What are they going to do as primary stakeholders, sell NC stocks because they’re mad by not being able to take down their competition by the inside?

I mean it’s just so incredibly blatant. If the company had an even remotely fair reputation then it could be arguable, but even as someone working in competition in the MMO industry, this is just disgusting.

I’d really like to see NC deny them this privilege. Actually, I’d probably help promote sales for NCSoft if they ditched Nexon just to spite them.

Ashen.2907:

Cormac.3871:

Ashen.2907:

Cormac.3871:

You need ascended gear to complete hearts?

It has been said 100 times, but I will say it the 101st, aside from fractals, the difference between ascended and exotic is negligible. Get two evenly matched players put one in ascended and one in exotic and have them meet up in WvW, the results may skew out to 55-45.

What part of your journey has been delayed by your need to get ascended?

And before you try the “Why wear armour at all?” line, the difference between rare and exotic is noticeable. The difference between exotic and ascended is not.

Never claimed that I needed ascended to complete hearts. Really not sure where you got that from what was actually said.

I notice a performance difference when I equip a trait that increases damage by 5%. Unless full ascended weapons/armor/accessories provides significantly less than that (and the math has shown that it is actually more) it is noticeable (for me).

Well, you started off by saying that doing hearts was playing the game for you and you concluded by saying that getting BiS armour was the start of the game for you. I thought that was a little inconsistent and was hoping to draw your attention to it. You still didn’t answer my question as to which part of the game you needed ascended for.

As for making a noticeable difference, if you can tell the difference between 20 hits to knock out a veteran and 19 hits by the end of a fight, you are doing better than me.

The poster to whom I had replied compared killing mobs/doing hearts to crafting in terms of leveling. I was pointing out that crafting is not play for me while the others are.

A 5% damage increase is noticeable to me both in play and because I check my combat log frequently. Then again monitoring my own damage output is something I do in every game I play.

BiS gear is not about a need to be able to overcome specific opposition for me. It is about developing my mastery of my character at his best. For me the journey doesnt hit its full stride until the character is at max level and has BiS gear.

No, I stated the process was incredibly quick. It’s not the most enjoyable thing, but it’s so far from a grind that if one refuses to acknowledge it as a viable means of getting that “noticeable difference,” then it’s absolutely worth it and genuinely only takes around a half hour. I compared the speed of it to early game progression because that’s how fast it is to get 500 crafting. There are dungeon paths that take longer.

And no, it’s 5% for an entire set. It’s < 1% per piece of armor.

The past week has been abysmal, and it’s definitely the servers.
I’m on a 300Mbps fiber-optic connection down/up getting a 3ms latency ping to test servers in WA near their central offices and am playing other games/streaming HD video with no problem. I’m even doing this seamlessly while playing GW2 in WvW to verify this issue is not stemming from a local problem. PvE and PvP clears up fine as well.

And I’m getting pretty much a constant 5-10 second delay in WvW. Even the mobs are rubber-banding and not just my character/players. This occurs no matter how many players are in the map or in an area. Standing at spawn has the same results.

My guild and other server members are also complaining about the issue. The mode is barely playable at this point.

I’d just like to throw in my two cents:

Revert trait acquisition back to how it was in regards to level of acquisition/introduction (GM traits at level 60). New and veteran players alike are both confused as to how progression works early on, often asking “What are traits, how do I unlock them, and when is my next unlock?” Keeping the unlocks consistent throughout the levels and letting players get a feel for them earlier while the game content is still on the easier side reinforces building/profession knowledge – a level 80 should not need to check his character screen to know what traits he’s using or which he needs to unlock – he should have a lot of experience working with his character to know how it works and maybe where at lategame it can be improved.

Which leads to the next necessary implementation of removing the content gaits behind traits. While it’s good to promote other areas of the game, basic character progression/play-style definition shouldn’t be gated behind content like that. Maybe for some new, high-level Grandmaster traits, but definitely not for the low level ones.

I’d also remove the requirements of needing to be X level to gain access to the Master/Grandmaster trait segments. It should be simplified by being based only off of the number of points obtained. The existing system bars some build and weapon setups from being used or viable in the lower levels because of some dependencies on these higher level traits. Removing these gates cuts down on complexity (“I see a bar and I can fill it right away because I wanna play this way!” versus “Oh I guess I’m not skilled enough to use a different weapon or style effectively yet.”). This ties into the above by letting players have a really good understanding of their current build/trait setups by level 80, and are looking at other trait lines possibly from the beginning as augmentations versus random points being thrown into a system to be told at endgame their build all along was bad/wrong for reasons they don’t know/understand.

The developers shouldn’t feel the need to gate content due to complexity. More intuitive/experienced players are going to want to take the game at the speed that best suits them, and are not going to want to be slowed down. These players will dive deep into the features early, will go into zones while under-leveled intentionally, etc. Conversely, less-experienced players will prefer to delve into these systems, and will take them on as they feel appropriate. Adding in a flag to remind the player to look at the trait system upon leveling up if the player has never opened the trait pane/has leveled up after obtaining a trait/with a spare point unspent is a good way to go, such that these players can skip out if they feel overwhelmed and be reminded later once they assimilate and get used to the game as to avoid simply forgetting/being overwhelmed.

At the very least, remove the skill point cost from traits. Especially now that skill points will not be awarded for leveling past 80, it would be very difficult for some new players to get the skill points needed to purchase traits later on. I know a few of the people I have recruited to the game did not know about traits until 80, but spent all of their skill points unlocking every single skill available, leaving them with no points to buy some of the necessary traits from bugged events/difficult ones.

Ashen.2907:

I don’t craft in MMOs. Perhaps someday there will be a game with a crafting system that doesn’t feel like an obnoxious chore or a second job, but GW2 is not that game.

I’ve put in the time, effort, and resources to get BiS which has been subsequently taken away. Now I’m being asked to grind for the next half a century or take on a second job in order to get it back.

I don’t, either, but GW2’s isn’t slow and there’s no need to be a “crafter” for it to pay off.

Going from 0-500 LW and WS in a day because I had the mats just laying around proved this to me as it not being like most other games in a lot of regards. People actually do early-game levels via crafting on the sheer basis that it’s less-grindy than killing mobs/doing hearts and is much faster by like a factor of ten.

GW2 was meant to be a game where players do a little bit of everything, or at least try. That’s why there’s “no grind” and “no farming;” the player is meant to get results by doing a little of everything and subsequently being maxed out because of it.

Arnox.5128:

DeceiverX.8361:

OP is just complaining about the elementalist class, or is also new to MMO’s in general.
I recall 50 skill slots being used simultaneously in the last MMO I played.

OK… To all who keep spouting off this stupid “I’ve just played an MMO with 30+ keys, newb.” nonsense:

Do those MMO’s also require you to move around ALL THE TIME and DODGE? Because anyone can just stand there and click on hotbar buttons all day. The reason I love and hate GW2 is that it is far from that. That’s the core of what makes GW2 frustrating for me. Not because I have all these abilities and attunements and etc, but because you ALWAYS need a hand on the WASD keys WHILE having all that stuff. You cannot stand there. Well… I guess you could but you’re gonna take it hard.

I really really really want to like this game. Heck, I loved a lot of the first one. (Although GW and GW2 play pretty differently to be fair.) And especially now that that expansion pack with those features we’ve all been waiting for is coming out. But GW2 is really not making this easy. Now, could I have selected a wrong class to begin with? Most likely. But 1. I’ve played an Ele before in GW so I thought I would have a somewhat easy time with this and 2. To put it quite stubbornly, I picked an Ele because that’s what I wanna be and play. Not a warrior or anything else. At least not right now.

Anyway though, I really want to thank everyone who gave me some advice and tips on how to control my character. Know I’ve read every word of that advice and do plan to suck it up and go at it again. Thank you.

Aside from dodging, yes. Actually, in most of these games, there are no AOE circles, so often you have to just know exactly where to be and when by memorizing all pre-cast animations/effects and knowing their radii by practicing a lot. I came from a game where the only form of active defense my main class had from was kiting/not getting hit by anything at all, for it had no other defenses and the lowest HP and armor values in the game with no other forms of defense. If you got hit by any stray AOE, got in the range of any CC, or simply didn’t know exactly when all of your enemy’s cooldowns were ready or not, you fell over dead and died in one auto-attack.

So no, it’s not a problem with GW2. It’s general ineptness with keeping up with the APM for playing the elementalist you need to do. I’m not saying you’re “bad” or anything, it’s just that your complaint is pretty much directly related to the fact you are playing the highest-APM class in the game in general, and one that frankly does require a lot of attention/practice in regards of what to press and when. It’s really not uncommon in these kinds of games to need to meet such requirements, and to say this is a problem with GW2 alone is simply a fallacy. Even runescape offers higher APM than some of the classes in GW2. Positional knowledge and requirements are part of playing any game, and in time you come to learn and better understand them. It’s not GW2’s fault so much as it is your inexperience either playing the game/class or games that are more demanding like it.

If you want to call those who say that your claims are incorrect as “stupid,” on the sheer basis that you think they are wrong with no evidence whatsoever, you’re not going to get positive responses. This is seriously just a matter of practice.

So yea, I have no advice if you believe this is a problem with GW2 rather than the elementalist class or overall requirements of most MMO’s out there and dismiss any other claims otherwise, because if you genuinely believe that, other class recommendations (I.E., not an elementalist or engineer) mean nothing and simply you’re helpless.

Allisa Wonderland.8192:

Every time I watch a dev play in a live stream I understand some of the frustrating control design choices.

The gamepad generation ruins all.

Rebindable untargeting (anything but Double-ESC) and mouse that doesn’t disappear when you hold down right click to move with camera… Please, just that.. The rest I can live with.

Yes please.

@thread
OP is just complaining about the elementalist class, or is also new to MMO’s in general.
I recall 50 skill slots being used simultaneously in the last MMO I played.

timmyf.1490:

Sariel V.7024:

timmyf.1490:

I’m a dude and I’m sitting here in my sweet unicorn hat and just laughing so hard right now.

method of acquisition, pls ;D

It’s for my guild. It’s custom embroidery and I had 15 of them made. So… you have to be in my guild and favored enough that I ship you one. :-)

Pic attached for fun.

That’s amazing.

You can’t judge the difference in a full set of infused ascended equipment versus that of entirely exotics including accessories, seeing as accessories are largely obtained through laurels and guild missions (I’ve only met a rare few who run fractals for them). This becomes a universal standard for all players, and neither of these are grindy due to the fact laurels are handed out for just logging in, and guild missions are intended to be fun and whimsical side-tasks for the sake of fun/uniting the guild.

I don’t recall anyone complaining over the difficulty of getting ascended accessories.

Weapons offer the most effectiveness, yes, but they’re also the cheapest to make by a massive margin. One can pretty easily make an ascended weapon in five days of play as the OP mentioned. That only requires like… six dungeon paths per day, which say doing AC1/3, CoF1/2, CoE2/3 is maybe around two hours per day with slower groups. That’s not unreasonable, seeing as the demand is BiS gear in such a ridiculously small amount of time.

The armor accounts for a < 5% stat gain. The accessories, which are easy to come by, account for > 10%.

This thread is about ascended weapon/armor crafting being “necessary” and that the rate/ease of acquisition is too difficult. It not only isn’t necessary on the sheer basis that currently no content in the entire game requires ascended armor/weapons (I.E., people who stack 70 AR on just accessories via AR infusions, but the craftables themselves do not offer a substantial advantage even in WvW). Ask any seasoned WvW player if the difference matters. Only those in t1 GvG’s and zerg-busting groups of the skilled elite will enforce it, otherwise claiming the equipment as unnecessary.

Speaking as someone who actually has made literally dozens of weapons and ascended armor with the infusions, the gains are hovering at around 5-7% still. A friend of mine in exotics and less-optimized runes using the same build deals almost identical damage.

The “difference” in performance gains is entirely based upon the pre-existing build. Using a build with lower power and armor will yield more effectiveness from the armor/weapons regarding the scaling on power main-stat sets on the sheer basis that armor then accounts for more of one’s overall total stats making the percentage affected by ascended gear artificially higher.

People also seem to forget that skill damage coefficients and scaling are huge determining factors when it comes to damage, and how toughness interacts with these. The power can and will mean absolutely nothing if the skill doesn’t have high power scaling or damage modifiers aren’t crazy high.

At this point, the only reasonable argument is the bonus provided by infusions, but honestly, that has nothing to do with ascended armor/weapons as a tier, nor is it associated with the grind and time-gating behind making this equipment, seeing as the infusions are made from stupid amounts of T6 mats found in PvE that cost around 3x as much as the armor itself. That is a grind. The ascended equipment itself? Very hardly one.

If you want to talk about the over-effectiveness of infusions or the difficulty of making omnis and the grind behind that, that’s an entirely different story. Otherwise, any argument made about the armor itself being over-rewarding or too difficult to make is strictly an exaggeration by those who insist they get BiS gear for no investment.

phys.7689:

DeceiverX.8361:

naiasonod.9265:

I wouldn’t say that ascended is negligible in power builds, especially the zerk meta.

Just gonna be honest here; its not negligible at all where the Power stat is concerned. For anything additive…yeah, pretty negligible. Anything multiplicative? Not so negligible.

I’d really have to argue otherwise. I kept very close detail of the difference between parts/set, and I can assure you that the difference is still absolutely negligible even under maximal multiplicative capacity.

Unless you’d like to argue that a 300% damage modifier isn’t good enough for multiplicative results – my thief build does indeed pack quite the hefty sum of multipliers.

The damage difference between ascended gear and exotics in terms of my absolutely bonkers damage scaling is…

Around 5 percent, still.

It’s actually really, really negligible.

according to the max presented, full ascended with full power infusions (5 more power) per slot(total 65) will give you 11%

that doesnt include effective damage from crit, and crit rate
so yeah its a noticeable difference

with crit rate and ferocity, assuming a power crit dmg trait set, it would be a difference of 24% over time.

so yeah, full ascended? not so negligible.

now, do you need ascended to win? aka dps checks? not really, are their some things you can burn than you cant burn if you are in all exotics? yeah.

is it a noticeable difference? definately.

Maybe for people with like 2.1k power running no offensive traits or modifiers that damage is substantial as an increase.

But that’s kind of the way it is for everyone. It’s like saying that using soldier’s weapons on a dire condi player bumped their base damage substantially. Of course it did.

But when you’re playing a real DPS build/trait setup, and are sittin at around 3k base power with no might/stacks, the damage bonus is quite literally negligible.

So okay, full power modifiers on someone with no stacks/real power as a stat might have it be more effective, but that’s just basic math dictating a larger percentage of x stat is coming from increases to baseline numbers that are already low.

Jana.6831:

Oh, so D/D is OP – I never would’ve guessed.
I rarely meet D/D thieves though.

I wouldn’t have, ether. Who knew that the least-effective weapon combination in sPvP would be so blatantly overpowered in WvW.

D/D is a fair set. It’s designed by principle to optimize damage over everything else. It has pretty much no utility/durability outside of the very situational Dancing Dagger and Death Blossom. D/P is used in sPvP only because of its extremely powerful utility/control effects and reset/gank potential via stealth that does not require a condition to get access to, and is taken in WvW from it’s stealth options and synergy with Shadow Arts paired with the best and most spammable gap closer in the game.

Y’know what’s an overpowered combination? P/D. Now that is a set which I believe is setting the whole class back in regards to unnecessary nerfs/lack of buffs. It’s overly-forgiving and borderline risk-free while able to pump out huge condition damage values, and is even compatible with power builds from its obscene damage on #3.

What am I hoping for with the “rifle?”

Not a rifle at all.

naiasonod.9265:

I wouldn’t say that ascended is negligible in power builds, especially the zerk meta.

Just gonna be honest here; its not negligible at all where the Power stat is concerned. For anything additive…yeah, pretty negligible. Anything multiplicative? Not so negligible.

I’d really have to argue otherwise. I kept very close detail of the difference between parts/set, and I can assure you that the difference is still absolutely negligible even under maximal multiplicative capacity.

Unless you’d like to argue that a 300% damage modifier isn’t good enough for multiplicative results – my thief build does indeed pack quite the hefty sum of multipliers.

The damage difference between ascended gear and exotics in terms of my absolutely bonkers damage scaling is…

Around 5 percent, still.

It’s actually really, really negligible.

Vayne.8563:

There are, and have always been, two types of people playing these games, or two poles which people find themselves between. This has been true since the early days of pen and paper games, before computer games were even a thing.

The people I used to call simulation players and now call mechanics players are interested in the mechanics of the game. To them, everything is a system. This is how I get the most damage. This is how I maximize my efficiency. This is how I get through this dungeon fastest.

Then there are role players who use weapons that they think are cool, even if they’re not the most efficient. My character doesn’t like swords, even though swords are the most efficient weapon I can use. Some people don’t even know what works best.

Some people play healers not because healing helps the team, but it’s because they want to play. And as long as they play with other people playing that way, there’s usually no hassle. It’s when people who play their characters as characters come into contact with people who see the game as a bunch of systems that problems erupt.

And of course, you can be in the middle. I’m more for a person who plays characters, but I am mindful that some things just aren’t effective. I assume my characters are smart enough to want to be effective. But that’s not the same thing as saying MOST effective or most efficient.

At the end of that day most people are somewhere between the two poles, but they lean to one pole or the other.

Nicely said.

I consider myself kind of at an awkward in-between both as well.

I create characters as both tools to get a job done, but also as concepts exploring different things. My characters, including ones in DnD/Pathfinder campaigns, have had relevance to each other, intertwining back stories, etc., or are simply re-creations or inspirations from things I like and have seen (I’d like to mention that playing a paper RPG game as a clueless PC AND an NPC who is supposed to be knowledgeable on the world in the future of a world existing in a different, concurrent game being played as a PC is extremely difficult). That said, I usually give my cast their fair share of definitions and combat effectiveness requirements, or simply, if I believe the build as non-viable, I may not even make the character at all and just keep them as side-thoughts. I’ve had to marginalize some of my personal favorite paper-game characters like Dakrion Hellstorm due to the non-existence of defining traits, such as in his case, wielding a massive, oversized crossbow, due to the restrictions defined by GW2.

But I always project my characters as myself expressing my own personal ideals in-game. I look at them more or less as solid, visual representations/figures more than anything. RP’ing is something that I believe is just flat-out better in person, and simply is just not as easy to relate to/get into while online. Tonal changes and accents really nail things down I think, and sometimes going as far as dressing up for a public tabletop display is totally worth it to add the extra intrigue/hilarity; I’ll be playing in a public setting with a bunch of friends for a Valentine’s Day gaming expo, and we’ll be doing a holiday-themed session with Cupid as the head of the party, all of us dressed up as our characters. Watching a leprechaun sitting next to Uncle Sam and his pet eagle, sitting across from the Grim Reaper, Santa, and the Easter Bunny while screaming over the effects of a slightly-obese Cupid hitting on the queen via corny and vulgar pickup lines is something simply that cannot be replicated in-game :P

But I prefer to take a bit more of a utilitarian approach towards character builds, though. I’m deeply invested in mechanics, and often compose some characters entirely based around these mechanics. I will try absolutely everything to make what I want work, and will go as far as naming my characters after their mechanical concepts. I’m a definite min-maxer when it comes to making ineffective things play remotely well, if not extremely well in both online and paper games (such as an akimbo dual-crossbow-wielding hunter who kills off his pet/class feature for extra stat bonuses), just because I do enjoy the mechanics deeply as well.

All I can suggest is the proposal to make sure nothing like this happens. Whether or not it was planned on happening, I don’t know, as ANet has been quite vague on pretty much everything pertaining to HoT except masteries, but I do hope that this issue isn’t overseen.

Hopefully it just includes more AR, or versions of the current ones which offer more AR but not +stat.

Armor obtained through Karma merchants usually is not salvageable. Any armor or weapons that comes in as soulbound before equipping it cannot be salvaged. This includes some specialty merchants, special events/giveaways, level-up rewards, etc.

Account-bound/Tradable items before being equipped are all salvageable.

(Continued)

Why were the stats bumped? Beats me. IIRC, legendaries held better stats before the release of ascended weapons and armor (I recall fondly the incinerator having over 1k base early on), so it was a necessary step for the weapons at least. Not to mention crafting was underwhelming for really anything but crafting celestial armor/weapons, and those seeking even some tiny amount of vertical progression were being denied that capability, which is ultimately just as unfair. I believe a negligible increase in potential power probably was the best business decision for ANet, since the content at hand is pretty much entirely optional. Yes, one could be stronger with ascended gear, but he could also probably be stronger by re-working his traits and min-maxing his stat distributions better, and meanwhile is absolutely 110% sure he knows exactly how he wants to play and build his given class/character.

I think it also punishes a lot of FOTM’ers who just hop to the next “OP.” It establishes a sense of permanence and kind of reinforces playing your favorite class/build. If you rushed that decision, I really can’t have mercy since again, this is the absolute epitome of end-game min-maxing, we’re talking about.

Zero Day.2594:

DeceiverX.8361:

…

The gains are negligible, that’s true, but it doesn’t mean they’re not there. Min-maxing might be viewed to be as extremist from some, but at the same time those that don’t want to have max stats can be viewed weird (like why don’t you want your character to preform at it’s best if you could allow it?) by those that do want to have them. The gain might not be specifically towards a set goal like speed running, or getting that extra edge over an opponent in WvW, but rather allowing your character to be at it’s best.
(Not to be rude, but this kind of falls into “You don’t need it”)

DeceiverX.8361:

…

Yeah, don’t get me wrong in the sense that give me something for nothing , no. Exotics were fine to acquire as they were, I haven’t looked but I would be surprised that anyone complained. Plus since then they’ve added diminished returns, while with that they made it a bit harder it’s still not insane.

DeceiverX.8361:

…

Gah… Originally, when I bought this game, I hopped that it would be like gw1 where at the end people chased titles, skins, and made alts without thinking much about gear. Plus at the rate of how you were able to acquire exotics upon release was promising to that as well. Ascended kind of disappointed me in that. Though that’s history, and more of a personal thing. The commitment aspect is what pains me the most though that coupled with “min-maxing”. It means that I better kitten well be sure that the build that I’m running with ascended gear is the build I will be happy with for quite some time. If I want to run another build for some time, then I better be a “hardcore WvW player” or someone with another strategy (for me it’s TP flipping) on acquiring the resources to craft another set.

(Falls into “It’s not a grind for me!”. Though yeah, this part and the one above is more of a “don’t be lazy” which some people do come off as)

DeceiverX.8361:

…

It’s not so much of an issue as why it’s implemented in the first place. It is an artificial limiter for how fast people can acquire the gear without pony it up. Not sure what they tried to do there besides reduce the rate, I don’t think it was for balancing the markets or making them worthy either (as we know leather and metal is worth less than cloth in most tiers of crafting).

Don’t get me wrong; I understand my stance comes from someone who performs tasks in his daily ritual which contribute heavily to ascended materials gathering.

That said, if someone doesn’t WvW, doesn’t do dugeons for cash, doesn’t do fractals, and doesn’t do SW/open-world PvE… what exactly does this person do? Not to mention hardcore PvP players aren’t even interested in leveling/gearing, anyways. And why/how should they be rewarded? Last I checked, standing around doing nothing in the middle of a big city all day was an activity most homeless people do, and it makes sense that they do not live lives of luxury. Not saying they don’t deserve it as individuals, just that standing around doing nothing all day certainly doesn’t. Otherwise I think it’s safe to say everyone in the world would do nothing all day.

I also joined GW2 on the basis that all game modes were to be equally rewarding. And I think the game should pursue this further as much as it can. There are optimal ways of getting the materials, and yes I do believe it to be a bit of a concern that the materials themselves do not drop or drop well in some aspects of the game, but realistically, there should be some amount of effort needed to attain the best gear possible in the game. Like I also mentioned, it’s a commitment. Is getting a legendary necessary? No. Actually, it’s cost-prohibitive. You can make every stat combination of a given ascended weapon for less than most legendaries. You also don’t make a legendary mace for your guardian if you’re still on the fence of whether or not you might want to be maining your thief, instead. These kinds of decisions are meant to be truly at the end-game, where the player has a real and profound understanding of the game and what they intend to do with themselves. It is absolutely a commitment. And it’s one that each individual needs to weigh. That’s why I get kind of upset by the complaints about time-gating the materials for ascended armor (and even I believe these gates could be a bit faster), or about the price; in many cases, these complaints are made by mostly new-ish people or simply those who do not commit themselves to absolutely pushing the limits. A lot are people who follow the herd, so to speak.

I totally agree regarding the potential for better-stat infusions to really break the existing performance cap of both ascended gear relative to exotic gear as well as the amount of effort needed to actually get a set of these dang things.

I hope what is being referred to is the ability to unlock better simple AR ones due to what will be higher levels and the necessity for higher AR. I definitely support the notion of not implementing more powerful infusions in regards to stat bonuses, for then the WvW ones also become obsolete.

I think it’s kind of archaic, but I can see the purpose in some regards. I imagine in some contexts it can monetize via repair kits.

Which perhaps a permanent one could be implemented for a premium fee in the BLTC or something, but even then, mixed emotions there.

I would like them to remove armor destruction from WvW, though. Going down and being hard-res’ed during a fight to be brought up with a broken chest piece is kind of awful, seeing as it just makes you a free bag/rallybot a second time.

Zero Day.2594:

x.X this should probably be merged with:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/No-grind-philosophy

That’s been going on for 11 days now…

People that argue that it’s not a grind generally seem to say:

• You don’t need it (If you don’t need something, you don’t need to grind for it! (But oddly enough the grind still remains there, you just don’t need to do it.))
• It’s only a grind if you make it/It’s not a grind compared to other games/It’s not a grind for me! (Having a hard to making it not a grind. Other games? Yeah it’s probably a turn-off in those games as well. And well aren’t you special!)
• It’s only 5% stat increase (Thanks for point out how much the stats increase, what about the grind?)

Yea, but the gains are so negligible it’s like saying that doing 100% game completion in anything is considered necessary. And frankly, if you’re in the .00001% of people who min-max and theorycraft dungeon speed runs and are in a tier of players which set these records, that is frankly a taxing, repetitious grind in itself. To cry about BiS gear and optimization means absolutely nothing if that’s the context. Especially when so many of these people have done so much PvE that their cash stacks are border-line overflowing.

It’s like stating AP should be based upon account age and not the completion of content just because people want the rewards NAO wit no other justification than “I don’t like to do that content and it’s unfair that newb gets 1% more gold than me.”

See, ascended armor/weapon crafting is extremely easy for some people if their normal habits are conducive to getting the materials; I.E., hardcore WvW players.

On a given Friday night on reset, I can expect to earn around 200 silk, 15g, and at least a stack of each of the ascended materials. This of course is absolutely not at all a grind to me due to the fact I prefer playing in WvW over everything else.

Should there be more ways to get the materials? Yes and no. I’d rather just see the dependency on silk decrease/correspond to the other materials like leather/mithril which are worthless and make more sense.

Is time-gating an issue? Not really now, no. At least not for ascended crafting. You can easily buy the materials needed for the actual pieces themselves. I’ve crafted 5-6 weapons on-demand by getting the pre-crafted items through the TP because of impatience/lack of time. Is it cheaper to make them the slow way? Absolutely. But it should be. Otherwise it creates market instability. Time-gating is really bad in a lot of other aspects of the game – especially in terms of consumable items – such that there are 30 minute duration food items that are account-bound and can only be made once per day. That extremely limited duration of effect for the amount of input time needed artificially spikes the price to monstrous extents; the cost of the materials to make them is around 1/8 of the cost of the finished product. Last I checked, damask requires several-gold’s worth of materials, anyways, and buys for around 13. Time-gating is definitely something that needs to be re-considered for many aspects of the game, but I do not believe it is overly-punishing for ascended crafting.

Ascended gear is not hard to get so much as it is a commitment. Doing dungeons all day will earn one plenty of gold, but one shouldn’t expect BiS gear while spamming the wrong type of content and spending all of their saved cash on expensive skins or alts.

You can buy the time-gated pieces off of the TP for a small premium and just make them in one day.

You don’t need ascended gear for anything in the game. One can still achieve the AR requirements necessary for level 50 fractals on the accessories alone, which are basically free from logging in via laurels. I’m going to guess you haven’t actually looked at the stat increases of using ascended versus exotics. The gains between the tiers is the smallest difference in the game. You’ll end up with a whopping… ~+25 to your primary stat from an entire set, and negligible increases to defense.

You act like this equipment is necessary except that it isn’t. Like it actually isn’t and this entire post in your own words is WRONG.

All of the materials can be found in various parts of the game, and are not restricted to WBT and the few examples you have provided. Please do more research.

If you’re truly a competitive min-maxer, then getting BiS gear should be an obstacle you’re used to overcoming. The slower and more difficult acquisition makes it just have more prestige than anything.

Frankly, I only made my ascended armor for the use of omni infusions. You want to talk about cost? 1500 T6 bloods later for +30 power is the reward. It’s actually cheaper to make the armor set than get the infusions, and the stat reward comes from the infusions and not the actual armor. I made the stuff only to retain my title as one of the hardest hitting thieves in the game/maintain the fact I have hit the absolute power ceiling to the absolute finest measurement.

And weapons are dirt cheap. It’s like 60g per weapon which is a few days of running dungeons, anyways. BiS gear should rightfully take a little time for its prestige, seeing as the stat difference is so negligible.

Indeed that I am hoping to see specializations in the future deal with this problem by allowing for the removal of the pet altogether with replacements for F1-F4.

All of those who I have recruited to this game who were new to MMO’s (and a few entirely to PC gaming in general) thought the beginning of the game was too boring and stupid and quit because of all of the progress gating after the NPE and trait systems took effect.

And the veterans to the MMO world also got up and quit seeing as most MMO’s don’t gate content like the concept of skills at all. The one which I come from actually let you take level/stat requirements off of gear to let people get access to the more difficult content zones earlier for an extra challenge/EXP from fighting without skill use. This made the game very much self-paced and was excellent.

Since the mobs have been nerfed in the starting areas, anyways, it makes no difference if a new player is confused at the beginning and doesn’t learn to unlock traits until level 30 from word of mouth. Just having the ability to start earlier is so much more preferred and removes unnecessary gating of content.

RPG’s should be played at the speed the players want to. This goes all the way back to Dungeons and Dragons. If your party doesn’t like your DM’ing methods/progression speed, either they inform you and you fix it, or they choose to leave/the DM finds new players instead. We play these games for interaction and to experiment in a new world that lets us. It inspires curiosity at the pace of the learner. If all public schools held back everyone/moved at the pace of special ed students or those with serious learning disabilities, or simply, just slower students, we’d live in a society with virtually no progression since the top of the class would never have the opportunity to truly learn, or would simply quit school as soon as possible just for the sake of preserving their sanity.

Donut.6914:

Honestly I would love if we got double foci. It would be cool to see Thieves running around with two of these.

My immediate reaction when I saw those was katars, which would be sweet.

MrForz.1953:

I was mostly tinking of a dual Courage:

Drunken Master!!!1!one

DarkSyze.8627:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

DarkSyze.8627:

yolo swaggins.2570:

DarkSyze.8627:

So you are say thief can not spam? i can show many evidence of thief spam from other thief player. I experience thief spam every time i go to wvw and spvp; so what you say, i do not know what spam is? Initiative is not excuse for thief class; every class should have same punishment and same consequence when not play good; no excuse.

This is why nobody is taking you seriously:

You say “evidence” and then say it should be nerfed due to said evidence, but you do not show any evidence that you’ve played thief to the extent we have. Focusing on a small part of the thief’s issues without factoring in the other problems that are keeping the original problems from being solved shows that you are ignorant to all of the problems revolving around thief. It shows that you do not play thief and have no clue what you are talking about.

And if you had ANY idea what you were talking about, you’de know that no amount of vid and thread spamming will change it or our minds. Deal with it and git gud or don’t and git out.

Example; do you have to be in hospital to be sick? So because i do not play thief class; i do not know what thief class is? I am ignorant for not play thief class? so you say same as example; because you are not in hospital; you are ignorant? It do not make sense.

That’s a horrible analogy.

Just because you’re a die hard NASCAR fan and have seen all the races, you still remain ignorant of what’s happening behind the wheel.

Those drivers, just as those Thieves, make what they do look easy.

I stand by my analogy; i am not ignorant. Ignorant mean- “lack of knowledge and training” ; http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/ignorant What lack of knowledge i have; i experience thieves all time in wvw and spvp. I have thieves in party, guild and server; zerg. Last; lack of training; i experience thieves in spvp; training game mode. It make no sense what you say about me be ignorant.

I experience and know what stealth is; arena net did not invent stealth! arena net did not invent thief class, arena net did not invent mobility, teleport, evasion, dodge and critic damage. You think i am new to mmo game; ask me before you call me ignorant; not hard; very easy.

So again, just because i do not play thief class, it do not make me or any not thief player ignorant.

Suggestion; You need to be careful of using that word; adjective word of ignorant is stupid, idiot, imbecile. It can get you in serious trouble.

You really don’t know stealth at all.

In the game I come from, stealth on the assassin was free to cast and had a permanent duration, and the class when built right could one-shot literally anything and everything in the game. This same class had access to 40+ straight seconds of hard CC and area denial skills to prevent people from escaping.

Thing was, it was still fair in high tier play.

Stealth is very far from the same in every game, and clearly you do not have experience to understand the difficulty.

I look forward to seeing you in NASCAR as someone mentioned above

This always made me chuckle. Surprisingly more effective at holding points than one would think :P

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fZAQRAqa6YlsMpoplOx7J0PNBNBxdNyxM0KAdHl+2EA-TZxGwAAOCAGOBAMLDo4hAwZ/BA

DarkSyze.8627:

Jana.6831:

It’s simple: What I said was true: once you know the thief mechanics you don’t need 3 guys to kill him. Sweeping after a cap is always a good idea and there are all kinds of classes hiding in towers as all of them can solo towers, depending on their skill level.

I am a thief myself and have capped around 30 towers solo, I hid in few of them, I usually used a cata to open them, sometimes a treb.
That a mesmer is easier to catch is your personal opinion.

Want more arguments? Because all we’re doing is running in a circle – you don’t like thieves, we get it, you haven’t figured out their mechanics, we get it, but well.. too bad, I guess.

Jana, i want challenge your argument.
Jana, have you seen this thread? this thread been here long than you; yes 2 years include beta tester player.

1. https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Stealth-Attacking-consistently-while-totally-100-stealth

2. https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Im-done-playing-a-thief-and-most-likely-GW2/first#post270109

3. https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/it-is-possible-thief-can-stealth-almost-2-min-in-WvWvW/first#post400497

4. https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Thief-overpowered

So can you say all player include thief player who post in forum don’t know what they talk about? Or do not know their thief class? Or make up problem?

Last question; Is everything player include thief player say from 2 years+beta in forum is here today for thief class?

I want to know just know if they are make up complain and story of thief class stealth, that’s all.

1.) Caused by a culling problem. Fixed.

2.) Caused by a culling problem. Fixed.

3.) Caused by an oversight in the initiative/Shadow Arts system. Fixed. Caused by a bug which allowed for the capture of objectives/defense of objectives while stealthed. Fixed.

4.) A thread/member of the community which has been debunked several times and is blatantly ignorant of how the PvP meta works/basics behind why optimization strategies even occur.

Especially regarding #3, necros used to be overpowered because their marks and wells ignored RI in WvW (as did any non-on-hit condition effects such as caltrops, choking gas, entangle, all poison/fire fields, null field, etc.). You could take a party of necros and flip a camp before swords even popped even if the leader was invuln to incoming damage because all of the damage ignored RI entirely.

You can’t make ludicrous references from topics from two years ago/beta and assume the issues then are still true.

Thinking about it, he does kind of sound like Burnfall. But Burnfall wrote at least somewhat coherently, so I doubt they’re the same person.

Condition clearing isn’t “overpowered” in PvP.

Builds with excessive clearing are “overpowered” because berserker/DPS builds are actually substantially underpowered relative to the ease-of-use and just downright efficiency/damage throughputs of condition builds. Celestial Ele, terrormancer, condi engi, and a lot of mesmer builds are only in the format from condition damage shutting down the old builds in the format and their ability to just do better than pure-damage sets.

As far as bleed stacking goes, I’m sorry, but I’m pretty sure my S/S war does a LOT better than D/D 3spam caltrops, and I can move around/my enemy can move around while still taking permanent 25 stacks of bleed with a better DPS nuke than backstab + torment, burning, a block/reflect, better sustained defense, better cleansing, better control conditions, and better AoE potential.

Thing is, S/S warrior was a designed condition build if mainhanding it. D/D was not. Turning S/S into a power weapon because reasons is not justified in changing the style for everyone else. The same goes with changing mesmer sword MH to a condition weapon (as sword mainhand offers zero conditions outside of iLeap).

Cool you don’t want to be pigeon-holed. I want to play D/D on full power scaling. I play the most aggressive DPS/DPH weapon set in the game with the most aggressive DPS build in the game because I want to play the most aggressive DPS weapon set in the game. Not because I want to play a hybrid.

This debate is literally a matter of opinion and frankly, more D/D players are going to support full power options over some condition crap because a minority wants it to spam 3 harder on a build which rightfully should not even exist or be even remotely viable.

If DB didn’t apply bleeds that stacked so quickly relative to most other options, we wouldn’t be discussing this. D/D is a power set, and deserves to be a power set. Want condition variety? ANet is developing a new framework for new weapon sets for each class via specializations. Demand your new melee condition weapon there and maybe you’ll have reasonable support for a reasonable proposal.

I’ve stumbled across but one condi D/D player in my entirety of GW2 WvW’ing.

His effectiveness was there if you had no escapes, but otherwise all he did was spam 3 and do nothing but spam 3 because free evade frames. He was unskilled, useless to everyone else on the map, and frankly, a rather insulting excuse to what the set and the rest of the class have to offer.

Grinex, I think you typo’ed D/P meaning P/D, though. D/P is also a power build :P

Zero Day.2594:

DeceiverX.8361:

Knighthonor.4061:

Zero Day.2594:

Knighthonor.4061:

Y’all have to keep in mind that the new weapon will go with the Specialization not the thief class as we know it.
So the new specialization may not have the steal mechanic at all or the same weapon skills as the thief.

That’s a little too much to expect…

Anet did say that mechanics change with Specializations. Well Thiefs only have two mechanics.

We just get a sniper kit with cooldowns instead of initiative that focuses on high burst damage and low mobility. Steal also becomes a new skill that’s a huge nuke only effective from stealth.

It’s called the “Warrior,” and is “totally changing how classes are done.”

:O do we at least get the same survivability as a Warrior?

Of course not, because thief OP, duh.

Knighthonor.4061:

Zero Day.2594:

Knighthonor.4061:

Y’all have to keep in mind that the new weapon will go with the Specialization not the thief class as we know it.
So the new specialization may not have the steal mechanic at all or the same weapon skills as the thief.

That’s a little too much to expect…

Anet did say that mechanics change with Specializations. Well Thiefs only have two mechanics.

We just get a sniper kit with cooldowns instead of initiative that focuses on high burst damage and low mobility. Steal also becomes a new skill that’s a huge nuke only effective from stealth.

It’s called the “Warrior,” and is “totally changing how classes are done.”

Rasimir.6239:

Just take a step at a time, and craft whenever you have the material instead of moaning about not having it all at once. You could’ve gotten several sets of ascended stuff by now. I know I did, as a by-product of casual play.

Or take the easy way out and take advantage of other people’s timegated materials. I personally am currently crafting time-gated materials I don’t need at the moment to give to friends in exchange for the raw materials, so they can speed up their crafting. If all else fails, you can always get the timegated components from the trading post, although those come with a fee of course.

Time-gated stuff needs to be removed, though. There are 30 minute consumables limited to being crafted 1x/day per account which use time-gated materials. If you look at the materials cost, it’d run someone around 25s/hour of buffs from the massive market flood of the raw materials, but the finished product is around 2g/hour.

Why are people moaning about grinding for 100% completion or aesthetics?

Seriously, believing that 100%‘ing the game is setting one’s self up for a grind. Simply put, everyone has different interests and motivations, and with the definition of “grind” being subjective, there is no way all content will or even should ever theoretically be considered as not a grind on the basis that different content elements are targeted for different audiences with different interests and general play styles/behaviors. Not all content will be desirable to you. Repetition is necessary to keep people playing. It’s not a grind if you enjoy the repetitive task; I spend almost all of my GW2 time in WvW, and am happy to stay there. I’ve made ascended weapons and armor from my WvW endeavors alone by salvaging drops from bags for the mats and crafting everything. It’s taken me longer, but frankly, it doesn’t really matter seeing as the total gains are incredibly negligible.

Are fractals grindy for me? Absolutely. Getting Condense/Coagulated essence for infusion to wear two of the same accessory is a dreadful experience that I have still yet to complete. Fractal capacitor progress was slow-going for me, but I got there and I’m happy I reached my goals.

Honestly, what makes things much more of a “grind” is RNG. The fact I can do 20 fractals and never get essence, but my friend can do one and get a shard is something that that drives me up the wall. There’s no sense of progress, not benchmark reached, just the hope and desire gated by time which is further emphasized by once-daily activities. I think GW2 is very low on the grind on the basis that one’s needs and even many “wants” are reasonably obtained through various means. I’d argue RNG and time-gating is the real culprit at hand which accentuates the slow feel of acquisition more than anything.

Human medium armor legs are all pants pretty much. Actually, I do believe every non-gem leg armor for the human in the medium tier is exclusively pants. And for the guys, all of them look pretty much identical.

I don’t have the slightest idea what was said in the post above mine.

But I can state now that any build stabbing over 20k are the hardest builds to play in the game. And that those hits are extremely rare and only occur on very glassy opponents, which are becoming fewer in the WvW roaming meta, and do not exist in sPvP. Go ahead, try a real signet stab build in any context outside of ganking from an unseen position against a glassy target, and without extensive practice, you will lose the fight.

How about instead of doing “research,” you go and play the class itself and compare it to say, the difficulty/performance of a terrormancer, or even a P/D condi thief?

I’ve seen a decline if anything. Most roamers I encounter are engineers and mesmers, and most packs of roamers are rangers and necros.

Einlanzer.1627:

Doggie.3184:

Make it power based to do more direct dmg, speed up the animation and remove the jump aspect so we can move freely like with Dagger Storm or do it in place by choice. I like the reflect projectiles part too.

I liked GW1’s Death Blossom more. I really don’t care for the Leaping part.

Unless/until they release other melee options, D/D needs to be versatile, not power only.

Why do you feel this way, though? Only because there is a bleed built into the set’s hybrid skill?