people also tend to be ignorant of how class dynamics work as well. they tend to think that every class should have an equal chance of beating every class, like in a FPS. however, in all RPG’s, it works like paper/scissors/rock. only, it’s light armor/medium armor/heavy armor, or in some instances casters/physical damage/defense. 1 is designed to beat 3, 2 is designed to beat 1, 3 is designed to beat 2. people don’t understand this and think that 1, 2, and 3 should be designed to beat everyone. they don’t understand that while classes have strengths, they also have weaknesses, and that other classes are meant to expose those weaknesses.
So, if I play an Elementalist, Mesmer or Necromancer and see a Ranger, Engineer or Thief I should instantly run away because unless they are horrible I’ll die every time, if I play Ranger, Engineer or Thief and see a Warrior or Guardian I should instantly run away because unless they are horrible I’ll die every time, if I play an Warrior or Guardian and see a Elementalist, Mesmer or Necromancer I should instantly run away because unless they are horrible I’ll die every time. Sounds like a totally enjoyable gameplay to me…
and, if you notice people who spec and build their gear for defense have no problems beating a thief.
Yeah, it’s so simple, for every profession but the Thief glass cannon should simply not be viable. Sounds like a totally thought-out game design to me…
Scepter/Dagger, Dagger/Dagger has just as much burst, if not more than a backstab thief. If you are roaming around with a staff, your own fault. The fact you can’t see them is the issue, there damage is ON PAR with other classes burst specs.
D/D: Ride the Lightning->Updraft->Burning Speed
S/D: Dragon tooth->Phoenix->Fire Grab. 3 Moves, just as there combo, will do the same if not more damage, only difference is you’re visable. Thus stealth is the kitten puppy hampster chupacabra issue!
The difference between those combos and the BS combo is that those have huge visual clues telling you “Dodge now or get hurt badly”. The only visual clue the BS combo gives you is that the Thief swings the other arm.
Stealth is an entirely other matter.
I would rather have a profession-spanning mechanic that allows me to save at least two different trait distributions and weapon sets and let me switch between them quickly via [CTRL]+[F1]-[F4].
Though we do need more HP and a signet that immobilizes monsters like what the warrior has. I’m level 80 and basically unable to play around monsters above level 70. My warrior was able to fight level 47 stuff at level 30 and have the same survivability as my elementalist.
Are you confusing some skills now? The Ele has a signet which immobilizes the target, not the warrior.
Also, you must have a typo there; if monster are more than 7 levels above you they become immune to all your attacks.
5860 dmg done yesterday in sPvP on a ranger… can’t provide screenshot, sorry.
I bet you had 4k+ armor too, amirite?
Ima thief with 2.1k armor and have never seen a mug break 5k since the nerf.
What nerf are you referring to? The Assassin’s Signet change? That actually increased the damage of Steal/Mug because that signet now give + 15% to the whole combo, not + 50% damage to Backstab.
A Ranger which doesn’t boost his Toughness in any way (equipment or trait points) has 1980 armor and if the Thief goes full glass cannon (30/30… two Venoms) it’s possible to crit with Mug for a little over 6k damage.
As Rainshine has said as a Staff user you want to have 30 points in Arcane Power for [Evasive Arcana] because all the spells count as a blast finisher. [Elemental Attunement] is another must-have. For the last Arcane Power trait you have the choice between [Renewing Stamina] and [Blasting Staff].
Because you like survivability 15 points in Water Magic is also a good choice because now each time you attune to Water you apply Regeneration and Soothing Mist to yourself and nearby allies and an AoE heal and an AoE condition remove. Because you already put 15 points in Water Magic why not put 10 more in it to get [Bountiful Power]? +2% damage per boon results in more extra damage than any +5% damage and comparable damage to any +10% trait. And if you already have 25 points in Water why not 5 more for in total two AoE condition removes every time you attune to Water?
The last 10 points can go into Air Magic for faster recharging Glyphs or Earth Magic for either Armor of Earth or more damage against bleeding foes.
Equipment is either Knight or Rabid if you want maximum defensive or Berserker or Rampager if you want maximum offensive (I’m assuming you’ve chosen [Renewing Stamina]). 2xWater and 2xMonk runes for altogether 60% longer boon duration. I’ve chosen 2xEarth as my final two runes to get one more second of Protection each time I attune to earth but you can choose other.
This build deals about as much damage as a 30/30/x/x/x Ele and slightly less damage than a 30/x/x/x/30 Ele but has much more flexibility and survivability.
If you use Staff Earth #2, Air #5, Air #4 and then swap out off and back in Air and repeat the whole combo ~40 seconds later you don’t only grant yourself permanent Swiftness but to your whole group.
I wouldn’t mind if they nerf bunker guardians, if in return they upgrade offensive and hybrid builds. Why do you people think bunker builds will get downgraded though, did anet say anything about that? The only thing I heard was them saying burst builds will get nerfed, in the thief profession forum.
A month ago or say one dev stated in the Ele forum that they were watching Bunker Eles and Bunker Guardians; they later clarified that “watching” does mean “looking if they are OP”, not necessarily “they are gonna get nerfed”.
I still believe that the game is impossible to balance before class/mechanics bugfixes and any nerfing/buffing now will only destroy the intended mechanics.
You don’t need to have a bug-free game to realize that one character having an attack or series of attacks which are not avoidable on reflex and do enough damage to kill a light-armored character instantly, severely damage a medium-armored character and damage a heavy-armored character by 50%+ of their total HPs is not balanced.
[Berserker’s Power] is bugged, it grants some abilities 12% more damage each time they hit an additional foe. So, if you e.g. hit 3 foes with Killing Shot the first one will suffer 112% of the normal damage (intended), the second ~125% and the third ~140% (not intended). That’s also the reason why you see 20k-40k Bladetrails sometimes.
(…)
edit:
It’s even more bugged than I though, it deals about +23% for each pierce.
Try [Infusion of Shadow] (Shadow Arts), it gives you 2 Initiative whenever you stealth yourself so basically C&D costs only 4 Initiative. The combo is to stealth yourself using C&D and then use Tactical Strike to daze the foe for 2 seconds and do the same 3 seconds later, basically removing that one foe from the battle. [Cloaked in Shadow] (Shadow Arts) complements this play style because you frequently blind everyone around you.
Some champions (golden swords) and maybe even legendary (purple swords) are not immune to interrupts so test out if Pistol #4 works against them.
Yes, I´m aware of it, but try to play the backstab GC build in WvW and be useful to your server, killing stragglers won´t do any good for your server, so the kill shot is still much better option (you can shoot from walls and up to them, but how can you backstab on a siege defense? If you jump down with GC build, you get killed in the matter of seconds, if you´re superlucky).
Use Cluster Bomb then; sure, it has only 1200 range but on a plus side ~12k AoE damage. If they run out of the AoE before it hits let it explode sooner, if you’re lucky you might still hit a few of those players for ~4k.
[Berserker’s Power] is bugged, it grants some abilities 12% more damage each time they hit an additional foe. So, if you e.g. hit 3 foes with Killing Shot the first one will suffer 112% of the normal damage (intended), the second ~125% and the third ~140% (not intended). That’s also the reason why you see 20k-40k Bladetrails sometimes.
Also note that all those insane damage numbers were against up-leveled players against which Backstab would also have dealt ~20k damage, too. Look at ~4:30 when he fights an actual level 80 Ele; suddenly those 20k Kill Shots turn into a 9k Kill Shot.
edit:
It’s even more bugged than I though, it deals about +23% for each pierce.
“Once they are max-level and have max-equipment they start complaining that Warriors are too weak because Kill Shot does only about half as much damage as the BS combo does currently. " http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-H1zpdg7dU&feature=youtu.be
So your saying BS does around 64k dmg?
(42secs in…multiple 32k+ crits)
[Berserker’s Power] is bugged, some abilities gain extra damage every time you pierce a foe, however this is not the explanation for those damage numbers. Also channeled skills like Volley don’t display the damage of each hit but the damage over the entire duration, so that Volley didn’t do those supposed 32k+ in one hit put each hit dealt about 6k damage, however this is neither the explanation for those numbers.
The truth is revealed to you if you look at the video closely (e.g. download the video in high quality and look at it frame for frame), then you will notice that there are three numbers behind those 30k+ hits (and the other ones as well). That means that Volley hit the first guy for 5k (meaning ~1k each hit) and the guy behind for 3k (meaning ~600 each hit).
Doesn’t look that overpowered anymore, right?
Air #1: Buff the first strike, and reduce the damage of subsequent bounce hits accordingly, or make subsequent bounces able to re-strike the first target.
Air #2: Increase the damage and make it instant cast, lengthen the CD.
Air #3: Add a reasonable damage component to the knockback.
Air #1 can bounce back to the original target, Air #2 does good damage but it really needs a faster activation time. I doubt some damage on Air #3 would do much harm.
I would prefer getting the option to disallow every player not in my party to pick up my stuff; it’s annoying when you try to play a Conjure Ele and you don’t have a weapon for about half of the time because some random picked up your weapon or play a Warrior and someone steals your Banner.
I wouldn’t mind if the charge system is removed but the time limitation needs to stay, otherwise you can equip your entire team with those weapons. Other that that I like the general design of the Conjure skills, meaning locking you out of all your attunements and a fairly long cooldown. You can choose to give up all your previous skills for a more straight-forward weapon which gives Eles the face-roll play style many players want. They may not be good enough for this role though, but lets see what the next patch brings regarding that.
As Rainshine has said as a Staff user you want to have 30 points in Arcane Power for [Evasive Arcana] because all the spells count as a blast finisher. [Elemental Attunement] is another must-have. For the last Arcane Power trait you have the choice between [Renewing Stamina] and [Blasting Staff].
Because you like survivability 15 points in Water Magic is also a good choice because now each time you attune to Water you apply Regeneration and Soothing Mist to yourself and nearby allies and an AoE heal and an AoE condition remove. Because you already put 15 points in Water Magic why not put 10 more in it to get [Bountiful Power]? +2% damage per boon results in more extra damage than any +5% damage and comparable damage to any +10% trait. And if you already have 25 points in Water why not 5 more for in total two AoE condition removes every time you attune to Water?
The last 10 points can go into Air Magic for faster recharging Glyphs or Earth Magic for either Armor of Earth or more damage against bleeding foes.
Equipment is either Knight or Rabid if you want maximum defensive or Berserker or Rampager if you want maximum offensive (I’m assuming you’ve chosen [Renewing Stamina]). 2xWater and 2xMonk runes for altogether 60% longer boon duration. I’ve chosen 2xEarth as my final two runes to get one more second of Protection each time I attune to earth but you can choose other.
This build deals about as much damage as a 30/30/x/x/x Ele and slightly less damage than a 30/x/x/x/30 Ele but has much more flexibility and survivability.
If you use Staff Earth #2, Air #5, Air #4 and then swap out off and back in Air and repeat the whole combo ~40 seconds later you don’t only grant yourself permanent Swiftness but to your whole group.
Since that latest patch you can only get a limited amount of stealth so for permanent stealth each of the Thieves has to cast Shadow Refuge every few seconds.
Hi all. There was a change implemented that seems to have not made it into the patch notes from Monday that was intended to go in the ‘Professions’ section. Stealth now only stacks up to five times consecutively, meaning you can’t bombard yourself with massive stealth applications to become invisible for extended periods of time.
We’ll be including the patch note in a future update. Good catch!
It’s random which type of skills it recharges, and it can recharge a skill type of which you have no skill equipped, meaning it will do absolutely nothing.
It’s behind, not behind or flanks. It’s more strict than a 180° arc.
The tool tips are not consistent. Sometimes “from behind or from the side” means everywhere expect an about 45° arc in front of your target (example: Crossfire), sometimes it means it only an 180° arc in the back (example: Concussion Shot).
Backstab does double damage if you attack your target anywhere in an 180° arc from behind; test it out in the HotM.
Due to [Kit Refinement] you drop a Super Elixir every time you equip the Elixir Gun (~20s cooldown), then you can drop another Super Elixir (the healing of both Super Elixirs add up), switch to Bomb Kit and happily bomb away. The healing of the two Super Elixirs and the bombs combined with the Blind and slow from Bomb Kit #4 and #5 keeps you alive quite easily against most foes.
I’m not sure if [Forceful Explosives] also increases the healing AoE from [Elixir-Infused Bombs] but if it does it’s another must-have.
For more survivability you can go 20 points into Alchemy for the [Backpack Regenerator] but I don’t like that trait in this build because it doesn’t profit from Healing Power. Instead I put 30 points into Explosives for [Forceful Explosives], [Explosive Powder] and [Short Fuse]; it also allows me to get [Grenadier] in case I want to switch to Grenade Kit.
Cleric works best with this build because it gives Healing Power, Power and Toughness, the 25 points trait in Inventions adds 10% of your Healing Power to Power and you can choose a major Inventions trait which adds 5% of your Toughness to Power.
i think we should have control of our in the downed state. i hate seeing my pet stand doing nothing because i didnt get the chance to switch to another pet right before i went to downed. your downed and fighting to get back up and having a pet be worthless in that aspect just hurts.
You can still command your pet using the F1-F4 the skills are just no longer shown in your UI.
Something that most people forget is that you HAVE to be BEHIND the target and be in stealth to get hit by BS
(…)
The CnD-Mug combo needs to be fixed however. But if you remove that, is BS really that overpowered?
“Behind the target” is an 180° arc, so it’s not that easy to avoid.
And pretty much anyone who isn’t trolling has agreed that Backstab itself isn’t the problem but its synergy with other skills and the Shortbow.
This can be justified by warriors as much as they like but if thief is nerfed into the ground next patch, expect a boatload of ex thieves rolling sniper warriors. Thus bringing builds like this more into the open which will lead to more cries of nerf for warriors.
Once they are max-level and have max-equipment they start complaining that Warriors are too weak because Kill Shot does only about half as much damage as the BS combo does currently.
I was in a spvp match today where a warrior was doing over 16k damage with 100b. Why is it that people like to justify glass cannon warriors by saying they have no defense while glass cannon thieves are still considered op? A backstab is harder to land than 100b.
The 100B combo has huge visual tells, the Backstab combo has virtually none; that’s the main reason why the 100B combo is fine while the Backstab one is not. Also Thieves have far better survivability and support.
Warriors get 35% More Critical Chance then Thieves, , More Traits that Increase Base Damage, There Kill Shot can hit Multiple Targets (Unlike Backstab which can only hit one target.), and it only does 14 (YES a whole 14!) damage less then backstab, and has 1370 more range too! AND is a Combo finisher: Projectile.
So why does different rules go for thieves and warriors? When its about thieves people say “1 shot shouldn’t be viable” bla bla, when its a warrior it instead “BUT HE HAD TIME TO DODGE”. If it’s not allowed in one it shouldn’t be allowed in the other, you can dodge a thief also it’s just harder, on the other hand if you do he is in your face and without much ways of dealing great damage while the warrior is 1500 range away. People just see things one way, there are 2 sides to every coin.
Kill Shot does about 7k damage against a medium armored target.
Players that are hit by a 21k Kill Shot are also hit by a 21k Backstab, a 13k C&D, a 13k Mug, a 12k Cluster Bomb, a 6k auto attack from a Longbow Ranger, basically everything would one-shot those players.
Fun fact:
Backstab deals more damage than Kill Shot.
The reason why you don’t see those 20k crits on your Backstab is because your 10k Mug and 10k C&D has already killed them. Also, the Warrior trait [Berserker’s Power] is bugged and gives you +12% more damage for every additional foe you hit.
The reason why nobody screams OP about this is because it has a huge visual tell and deals only about half as much damage as the BS combo.
I rarely see BS thief’s in tPvP and I am pretty sure BS got nerfed already so I doubt the damage in pugs it even that high anymore.
Seriously what do you people want thief’s to do? People cried about Assassins in GW1 who had no stealth, and yet people cried about it.
The Assassin in GW1 was horribly designed: Shadowsteps neglected position play and the lead-, off-hand-, dualattack mechanic forced you to use their skills in a specific order; that means playing an Assassin in GW1 boiled down to pressing 1-2-3-4-5 every 20-30 seconds and playing the Monk on the opposing team to cast PS, Guardian or another protection spell within a second on the target the Assassin just teleported to.
Assassin were simply broken, when they were on a par with Warriors they were OP because it was lol-easy to play them and when their strength was adjusted to how hard they were to play they were UP because a well played Warrior was better.
And don’t act as Thieves would made useless if the other player is given the chance to dodge C&D or Backstab.
I personally think changing the talent tree to move Mug up to a 30 point talent in the power/condition duration tree would fix everything. The build would still remain viable, but by making this particular glass cannon build trait 30/30/0/0/10, instead of 25/30/0/0/15, the thief will lose that extra 3 initiative trait that allows him to cloak and dagger the second time in order to finish off the target, leaving them able to down anything, but utterly useless and an easy target when it comes to stomping the enemy. It would mean that the only way to ensure a reliable %100 hp target – death routine would require the thief to use their shadow refuge, negating a large portion of their escape ability and allowing any ally of the downed player to easily take the thief out before he can get away. This way, he may still seem OP to the player getting downed, but he just traded his life for that kill, making it anything but OP.
Even though making Mug a grandmaster trait may improve the situation the BS build would still be OP if it still can heavily damage to outright kill a non-Bunker virtually instantly.
Also do you believe that “Thieves kill you in a 1vs1 every time but in compensation your team mates can kill them afterwards” is balanced in a 5vs5 game mode where 1vs1 are not unheard of?
Also, as Psybunny said, the high burst damage with next to no visual clue is only the tip of the iceberg what makes BS Thieves so good; with Cloak and Dagger, Disabling Shot, Infiltrator’s Arrow, Shadowstep and possibly another utility skill they have good mobility and survivability, Dancing Dagger, Trick Shot and Cluster Bomb provide good AoE damage in a group fight on top of a point, and Choking Gas is an amazing anti-rezz skills because it not only damages both the downed player and the reviving player but also decreases the healing amount by 33%.
Black Powder creates a Smoke field around you which constantly blinds nearby foes; so always try to position yourself next to any ranged foes and let the melee ones come to you; unlike the Dagger’s the Sword’s auto attack hit multiple foes so even though you may deal less DPS overall you kill foes faster because you hit 2-3.
Signet of Malice is well-suited for this weapon combo because both the Sword’s and the Shortbow’s auto attack, Sword #3 and Shortbow #4 hit multiple foes frequently. Caltrops, both from the utility skill and the trait [Uncatchable] have also good synergy with that signet.
Put your trait points into Power, Precision and Prowess, at lower levels the actual traits are not that important yet but +100 in any stat can make a huge difference.
So Anet wants Guild Wars’s 2 spvp to be taken seriously yet they are going to start balancing the game around WvW? Where there buff, bunch of Aoe flying around and not to mention where armor really counts?
Why do you think 14-16k damage in less than a second against a medium armored target with next to no visual tell is balanced in sPvP but not in W3?
The ones that dont think it needs a nerf are the ones that use it period. I (being a thief myself) have full carrion exotic armour, green exotic trinkets and traits are 0/0/30/25/15. I got hit for a 4.5k steal, 5k cloak n dagger then an 11k bs, no class should be able to pull off 20k dmg in little over a second.
Haven’t you got the news? If you have less than 3k armor and 27k health you’re obviously a glass cannon and deserve to be one-shotted by a BS Thief. Just run around in a 5-man party, then your teammates can kill the Thief after it one-shotted you… maybe. /sarcasm
Healing is a team effort is this game; one provides the water field, the other one turn it into additional healing via finishers. Elementalists can also frequently finish their own combo fields with Eruption and Evasive Arcana.
(1) Basilisk Venom > (2) Assassin’s Signet > (3) Walk up to you and Cloak and Dagger > (4) Move around behind you and Steal (Mug) > (5) Backstab (Not instant, it has a casting time) > (6) Heart Seeker (The only skill that will be repeated, with the possible exception of a second Cloak and Dagger) > (7) Heart Seeker #2 > (8) Any stealth the Thief has left, usually Shadow Refuge or another Cloak and Dagger (The second C&D will leave them with no initiative.) > (9) “F” to finish him/her.
He must do this all with not invulnerability or stability, under 5 seconds, making sure he hits the BS from behind, without getting CC’ed of any kind, while taking no more than 14K damage with no more toughness or vitality, other than base.
My question is this: How is the above build “no skill”, when compared to a D/D bleed build that can easily output the same damage (minimum 18-20K with no condition remove) by only pressing the following keys:
(1) Steal (to close the gap) > (2) Caltrops > (3) Death Blossom > (4) Death Blossom > (5) Death Blossom > (6) Stealth > (7) “F” to finish him/her?
The reason why hardly anyone complains about the DB build is because it deals it’s damage over more than 10 seconds and it has huge visual clues.
If the player times it correctly all three hits of the BS combo can land in less than a second, and the only visual clue for this is to spot the animation difference between an auto attack and C&D from up to a range of 900. Also “hit from behind” means anywhere in an arc of 180° behind the target.
Many players don’t mind the damage the BS combo dishes out but they want the ability to avoid the combo by reflex, not telepathy.
Lets see, “Leg Specialist” (minor trait.) 10 trait vitality. (tactics tree.)
Immobilize Target when your Cripple.
Sword’s 3 combo has a cripple.
I play a 80 warrior and an 80 thief.
You’re thinking of thief here. Warrior’s sword combo has bleed on the first two, and raw damage on the last. Thief’s, however, has a cripple on the last hit. Sword mainhand warrior does, however, have a cripple on the 3 ability.
Thats exactly it.
Constantly Bleeding/Crippling/Weakening/Immobilizing, this is devastating.
The only Cripple a Sword+Warhorn Warrior has access to is the Sword skill #3 which has a 15 seconds cooldown. 1 second of Immobilized every 15 seconds now counts as “constantly”?
Cloak and Dagger itself is .5 seconds. Backstab is .25. Nice try, though.
You can activate Cloak and Dagger and then use Steal to shadowstep next to your target; if timed correctly all three hits happen in nearly just the animation time of Backstab. And because “hit from behind” is an 180° arc it isn’t that unusual that you’re in the perfect position for a backstab right after Steal.
Have the devs provided any new information regarding their plans with bunker builds? My latest ones say they are only looking at bunker builds and are still unsure if, which and by how much they needed to be nerfed.
Shortbow already provide very good ranged AoE damage, why would you want to push MH Pistol towards the same role? If at all make it an 1200 range single target ability.
Who will invite to party thief which is now almost unusable on dungeons with glass HP and almost no damage?
I can tell you from experience that having a Thief in your party which simply supports their party with Daze, Blind and Blast finishers already makes (at least some) dungeons noticeable easier. Just because a profession isn’t good at a very specific playstyle doesn’t mean that said profession is bad.
And you really believe Thief’s Shortbow needs a buff?!? It’s properly the best weapon in the game and I wouldn’t wonder if it will be nerfed in one of the next patches.
It’s not like BS Thieves are useless while Basilisk Venom, Assassin’s Signet and Steal are recharging; with the Shortbow those BS Thieves are also strong in group fights.
I think the pet weapon bar together with better responsiveness and more consistent hits on moving targets would solves pretty much all current issues with pets.
Actually they did officially say they’re specifically looking at the base damage for backstab right now, which is a good indication that it’s getting toned down.
Nope, he said they’re thinking about reducing the spike damage, which means the whole C&D, Steal, Backstab combo. What they most likely gonna do is increasing the time it takes to perform such combos, e.g. by giving offensive teleports a short aftercast delay.
Because broken or too powerful skills or skill combinations only gets fixed because some people complain about it on a forum, not because statistical data, PvP results and the feedback of high-level PvP players say so, sure…
