(edited by DocHolliday.5921)
As a Pve ’er my main problem with the game is how broken Risk vs. Reward is. The fact that you make equal if not more money running in a champ train over running the most difficult content (arah/48+ fractals) blows my mind.
We need INSTANCED elite content as well. PvE is way to easy right now.
Risk/Reward is messed up everywhere in the game.
Pvp balance especially.
My biggest grievance with the game is the lack of skills/build variety and just…. “FUN”.
Still over a year in and still no new traits/skills, and on top of that, skill/traits that have been garbage since beta… are still garbage… Over a year in.. Cmon now.
I still can’t see how people think this is better than GW1 was, at any point from launch.
A-net mentioned many times that they didn’t anticipated Exotics to become so common.
Which is funny, since before that their stated goal wast to have pretty much everyone be in Exotics at level 80. They didn’t anticipate to ever reach their stated goals? Oh, really?
Also, everyone coming from gw1 expected to get the best gear fairly quickly/easily/cheaply and then just work on other things that interest them. Plus, why is it a bad thing if people get the best gear easily? It’s only bad for people who want to grind hard for the 1-10% boost, which (besides titles) gw1 was never about.
I’m sure Anet also never expected (which they didn’t cause they temp banned him when they first heard about it) the first lvl 80 to happen in less than 3 days (before the game actually “launched”), or for the first legendary weapon to be crafted in less than a month. That doesn’t mean that they should make leveling harder or legendary weapons cost more.
As for my own tinfoil hat, if they intended ascended gear to be in the game at launch (which they’ve stated before), why not tell us about this when the game launched/ shortly into the release. I didn’t follow the news back then, but when fractals were announce with ascended rings, did they ever mention that eventually they’d release full ascended gear?
Yes. This is the biggest reason I quit playing. There were other factors too of course, but this was the big one. If they ever change this to how it SHOULD be, coming from GW1, I would probably give them another chance.
What do people expect with a RANGED based class? Everyone acts like the class is supposed to be fun. It’s Ranged!
Every time I have watched a Ranged class PVP video I paint my entire apartment and watch it dry. It’s honestly more fun. Ranged is Ranged, it’s never going to be “ZOMG!”. Standing back and watching missiles shoot to your enemy will never be exciting.
OK so you know how I see Ranged Classes. Now take a Ranged class and toss it into GW2. Ever watched paint dry with a microscope?
What the hell logic is this?
I play mostly ranged in every game and there are such things as fun ranged classes…
There are boring melee classes too, this game is full of them lmao.
The game is auto attack dominated, more so than ANY game I’ve ever played.
Atleast in WoW white dmg wasnt 90% of your dmg lol.
This is a good point. I played a Boomkin in WoW. None of the damage was auto-attack.
This game would be way better if they just put in a resource system (like energy in GW) and allow us to choose all our own skills.
C’mon guys, read before posting please. This has nothing to do with any particular class.
. I played my ranger for an hour or two…
I started off as ranger aswell, And the “combat flow” of that profession bored me so much that i stopped playing for a few months.
After some research i found i wasnt the only one who thought that way. So i started playing engineer after picking up the game again and i am enjoying the hell out of it.
It starts of slow quite like the ranger. But once you have full control over your spec and uttilities it is probably one of the most dynamic and diverse classes i played during my long MMO “career”.
The ranger isn’t my main character, it’s just the one I logged in on today. I have a level 80 guardian and level 80 warrior that are my mains. I actually have a character of every class, and have dabbled at least a few hours with all of them.
Incoming rant from a disgruntled ex-player:
That OP is pretty good, but I still think that MMO players as a whole have become far too obsessed with the concept of rewards, and developers have been pandering to them to the detriment of what should really matter: game-play.
Removed most of the quote to save space. I agree with all of your points. Also liked the OP. This plays into what I rediscovered today when I came back for a couple hours after having quit months ago. Sadly, I’ll be leaving again for those same reasons. There’s just nothing here for me right now. I miss the first GW, and would still be playing if my account hadn’t got hacked. This was before they implemented the account roll-back feature, and at the time all they could do was tell me I was SOL. I just didn’t have the heart to regrind my Obsidian set and everything else.
Don’t know if anyone has said this already, but I believe this is basically the inevitable result of trying to break up the trinity. When you can’t efficiently focus on survivability, players will focus on the other extreme: killing quickly. The developer also can’t design fights in such a way that won’t work, because the players don’t have the tools to deal with it otherwise.
/sigh. I know I’m doing an utterly terrible job of communicating what I mean.
Let me try to put it a different way. If players don’t have tools available to tank and out-heal the incoming damage, they have to deal with it another way. This means players have to: a) kill everything fast before they get killed, and b) have a way to avoid taking damage entirely. And developers have no choice but to design fights that way too if they take the tank + heal tools away.
… after not playing for several months, hoping maybe I’d get sucked back in. Or at least, I’d understand better why I quit playing in the first place. Unfortunately, I didn’t get sucked back in. So here’s what’s keeping me from really enjoying the game, in case anyone’s interested. If not, that’s cool.
1. The combat and skill system are just… boring. I played for an hour or two, and the weapon skills just don’t complement each other at all. If I could choose skills like I did in the first GW, I would never put those skills together. It lead to “kill things with autoattack and then hit an ability every once in a while”. Boring.
2. The game world is too busy. There’s always something trying to grab your attention, and I just don’t like it. No, I don’t want to do an event every 5 minutes. No, I don’t want to be attacked every 2 steps. Sometimes, I just want to explore and relax. Just can’t do that, anywhere really. Even the exploration is specially prepared with vistas and jumping puzzles. It really takes the fun out of exploring when you know you’re only going where you’re expected to go.
3. I’m still not interested in long gear grinds just for basic end-game gear with top stats. Let me know when I can craft a full set of ascended-level gear for about 5-10G worth of mats that I can buy off the AH and be done with in about 5 minutes. Yes, it should be ugly as sin. That’s one of the things that made GW work. You could get good gear easy… it was just ugly. If you wanted nice stuff, well, that was where you had to put in the hard work. But at least you had the best gear to do it.
Disclaimer: this is not a commentary on what is good or bad. This is just observations about my own personal preferences, nothing more.
Edit because of people commenting only on a completely irrelevant detail.
(edited by DocHolliday.5921)
What’s the first thing you’re going to do?
Scrap the gear system, the level system and the skill system, and bring over the previous ones from Guild Wars that were 100x better.
When they announced that they would have fewer skills to improve balance I was on board with it, PvP in GW1 was great but there were ‘cookie-cutter’ builds that would get run all the time and quite often were irritating/boring to play against.
Unfortunately the balance in this game is really bad too, classes such as the engineer, ranger and necromancer have been begging for months for some buffs and over the last 3 months they haven’t gotten squat. It really is quite pathetic, instead of throwing in all this new pve content that is shallow and poorly done, I would rather they would focus on making the combat more fun and immersive. Why they haven’t touched bunkers for months is absolutely ridiculous.
If they were going to balance the game like this I would have definitely preferred the GW1 skill system. Everything was much more unpredictable and interesting, instead of memorizing the same bar and using it more efficiently you would learn several builds and counters. There would be occasional build wars when your build was hard countered but most of the time the winner would be the players/team that adapted their strategy quickest to what the enemy was doing.
That was just PvP, in GW1 PvE the enemies used the same skills as players, kited out of AoE and were just much, much smarter. Once heroes came out the game became a cakewalk but early in the days of prophecies there were challenging areas/missions (Thirsty river, Thunderhead Keep, Abbadon’s mouth etc). I have never failed a personal story, ever. The only times I had to restart a mission were in the first month whenever I encountered a glitch.
This game definitely needs more variety (either by adding more skills, changing existing skills to be more interesting/varied or redoing traits to actually change your playstyle rather than just create bigger numbers). Not all of this post is specifically on topic but I’ve just been so frustrated by the way Anet have (mis)managed the game from release, this could have been an absolutely amazing game that changed the mmorpg genre but as it is, it’s a merely above average game with a handful of nice features that we may see in future mmo’s.
Thank you for taking the time to post that. Very well stated and exactly how I feel as well.
The original Guild Wars did have a ton of skills, and I liked the way it worked for that game. However, it’s not like there was some tremendous amount of build variety. I mean, look at the options on GW PvX for “Great” rated general builds. There’s only 33 of them in total, and 12 of those are full team builds. Paragon, Assassin, Monk, and Ritualist only have one build each.
Yes, additional build variety in GW2 would be great, but that should be done through trait/skill balance at this point, and not an increase in skills. Down the road there will probably be more skills added, but now’s not the time.
There are alot more builds out there, but they never get posted on that website. And believe me, the builds that some guilds use, are way better than those from that website. That website just learns you some basics of certain runs. Also it’s totally not up-to-date.
Yes. This, exactly.
Also as Shufflepants stated, ArenaNet has said that while thousands of combinations were possible, their data showed players ended up using the same skills over and over (Thousand Blades for example). ArenaNet would have seen the exact same thing if they copied GW1’s system into GW2 only in that case they would have known from their past that making all those skills was a waste of resources (and known they would be wasting even more resources in the future by making their job that much harder in balancing)
So essentially, because some people lacked the capability to put together builds of their own they decided to take that option away from everyone? That sounds like a great solution. /sarcasm
I still cannot believe they put something that useless in the game. How does it defend me? What does it do? Why should I use it? When should I use it? Going to the Wiki, you can find this additional information:
.This is the exact same problem in GW1. ArenaNet has never had good communication about their mechanics or how to use them. It was the community who always provide the best information for me when I returned to GW1. I learned fairly quickly that the official wiki was okay for quick reference as long as you avoided the mind-numbing details but if you wanted to find anything useful for when you were actually playing, you needed to go to the forums.
The difference in GW2 is that even if you don’t know all the details of using skills, your character is still functional. You can still play the game. In GW1, if you didn’t know the the right details of certain skills/builds/whatever, you could end up with an unplayable experience.
Seriously? Good god man, did you even play the first Guild Wars? ALL the skill descriptions were miles better than anything in GW2. How to explain how much of a joke the skill descriptions are in GW2 compared to GW? Words fail me.
The GW2 skill system is not terrible, but I do not find it to be engaging, either. Utilities usually end up with the same things in them, with some situational variety. Who doesn’t use invulnerability, stun break or condition removal more often than not? Some utility skills are significantly under-utilized.
Then there’s the waste of bar space that is a majority of the elite skills in some of the classes. With some notable exceptions, players would be better off having a fourth utility slot than having to choose which of their elites stinks least.
Once you pick your weapon(s), you’re locked into the slot 1-5 skills. Some classes have way better choices than others with regard to weapon skills. Most weapons have only a couple of skills that ought to be spammed (when not on CD). Some weapons have multiple situational options (daze, cripple, condition transfer, immobilize, etc.), leaving the user with the auto-attack and whatever damage skill is off CD.
For me, at least, the GW2 skill system lacks depth. People make the point that a lot of GW1 skills were hardly ever used, and this is certainly true. However, a lot of GW2 skills are hardly ever used, either, and there are a lot fewer of them to start with.
I just wish more people were capable of understanding this.
Sigh…. I miss second professions. You could make some really crazy builds on GW1 and tweaking builds would entertain me for hours. Now, when I hit 80 on my character I am so sick and tired of the skills I’m using and just end up rolling another class.
GW1 wasn’t that difficult to make a build, especially with PVXwiki or whatever it was, where you could download builds off a website, and then have fun tweaking those.
I think the OP has a good idea, having a few more choices on the weapon we are using would be awsome and would make your playing style more unique again. Come on, we’re not simpletons, unable to read what more than 5 skills do on a bar and never ever be able to use them effectively. Give us some credit :P
Agreed, 100%.
Because GW 1 was very well balanced. It was so easy to balance all those skills. What you might not be realizing is that GW 1 was a nightmare for some people, because of the number of skills. People didn’t know how to make builds. A lot of people tried the game, failed heavily and went on to different games. Anet doesn’t want that to happen again.
Now people are forced to take a self-heal. They’re forced to have at least some skills that work together. Sure it doesn’t suit you, personally. Doesn’t particularly suit me either. But that doesn’t mean it’s not better from a design point of view, or better for the game.
The combination of the number of skills in Guild Wars 1 and the second profession mechanic made the game virtually impossible to balance. It screwed with PvP and PVe became so easy it was meaningless, down to the point where you could use a Rit to solo farm ectos in the underworld.
I too miss the skill selection from Guild Wars 1, but that doesn’t mean there isn’t a good reason for not having it in Guild Wars 2.
Omg! A game that makes players think?! SAY IT AIN’T SO!
I love games that make you think. I also recognize that the kind of game Guild Wars 2 was going to be depends on traffic and, unfortunately, if you make people think, you’ll seriously limit the number of people playing the game. Guild Wars 1 had 20% of the staff of Guild Wars 2. This is a much bigger project and has to appeal to a much wider audience.
WoW doesn’t make anyone think and has a zillion players. Guild Wars 1 did make people think and had far less (though many just as devoted). I’m a Guild Wars 1 fan and loved the game.
But I’m also aware that a game that aims to be mainstream can’t make people think too much, because there are fewer smart people than average people (pretty much by definition lol).
All true, but it doesn’t make it any less disappointing. And I’m not so sure that in the end this will prove more successful, simply because of the vast glut of games already available for those players who don’t like to think too much. Sometimes you can actually be more successful filling a particular niche where there’s no real competition – that’s what a real successor to Guild Wars would have done. But even if they didn’t want to risk that, there’s still ways to do some compromises, even with the current system, which they chose not to do.
Honestly, the more I play GW2, the more I miss GW and the more I feel like maybe I should just ditch GW2 and go back to GW. If my account hadn’t got hacked 3 years ago I already would have. As it is, I just never had the heart to start over with getting my obsidian and other nice elite gear sets. But the way GW2 is going, that might change.
I dont understand this. What was the logic behind this decision? Was this an oversight?
The reason you don’t understand it is because there was no logic behind any of the Ascended gear, and all of it was very poorly implemented. And this latest patch, if anything, only made it worse.
Peeps seem to be neglecting the big grinds of GW1, FoW and UW for obsi armor and DoA. Good times.
And you seem to be neglecting the fact that gear from there was for appearance only. And also that you could buy all the mats you needed.
And that was because Guild Wars just couldn’t handle all the new stuff they wanted to put into it. Had nothing to do with the skill system being flawed.
Queensdale – the current Queensdale, dynamic events and persistent world and all – was originally built in GW1. So try again.
So where’s your link to that information? And even if that’s true, it still offers no support whatsoever for your claims that the skill system in GW was flawed, nevermind so flawed they couldn’t continue to support it.
Until Ascended gear is at least as easily and widely available as Exotic gear currently is, they haven’t fixed kitten.
There’s got to be some kind of grind in an MMO or there’s nothing for more hardcore players to do.
Actually, there doesn’t. The percentage of MMO players who actually enjoy grinding is miniscule. Why else do you think they would have made no grinding a selling point of GW2?
And why would you try to appease the 1% of players who like grinding if it costs you the 15% who hate it?
Really? I wonder why they haven’t shut it down yet then. Maybe because there’s still people playing it, despite GW2 being out?
And why do you think they have stopped supporting it? Why no chapter 4, why was Utopia cancelled, and so on? The skill system in GW1 prevented ArenaNet from making the game grow anymore. Without the ability to grow, there was little more for GW1 other than withering and dying, as it has been doing.
Why they stopped supporting it is no mystery. They explained that way back when they first announced GW2. And that was because Guild Wars just couldn’t handle all the new stuff they wanted to put into it. Had nothing to do with the skill system being flawed. Based on what we got with GW2, the most likely new thing they couldn’t properly implement in GW was dynamic events. But please, if you have insider information that states otherwise, please post it. Otherwise quit spreading misinformation.
No it’s not. Aside from dodging, positioning mattered just as much in GW, despite not having pulls.
False. The fact the game allows people to cast skills on the move, the presence of pulls and pushs, the way projectiles work now, projectile reflection, having all abilities cast on allies being available only as area effects (instead of having people click on an ally’s health bar), and many other factors show how positioning is much more important than in GW1.
That makes it slightly different, not more important. Having to stop to cast your skills makes your positioning when you start casting them extremely important.
You appear to have the false belief that GW2 is GW1 sans hexes. That’s not how the game works. The entire combat system is considerably more position-based and (player) skill-based than in GW1.
Really? That’s how you interpret what I posted? How sad.
Guild Wars was mostly about how you did things. Guild Wars 2 is mostly about what things you do. And that’s why the whole skill system in GW2 isn’t nearly as dynamic and robust as the one in Guild Wars.
The GW1 skill system was incredibly flawed. It was so flawed that it effectivelly killed the game.
Really? I wonder why they haven’t shut it down yet then. Maybe because there’s still people playing it, despite GW2 being out?
The combat system in GW2 is an improvement. Combat has been made more complex due to how positioning became more important, and how skills now have more effects connected to positioning – while GW1 had knock downs, GW2 has pulls, pushs, knock downs, and etc.
No it’s not. Aside from dodging, positioning mattered just as much in GW, despite not having pulls.
This makes combat not only more active, but also more reliable on player skill as opposed to character skills. It’s less likely we will reach a “Build Wars” state in GW2 than in GW1.
Sure, until you know how to dodge. It’s not hard. Once you learn it, the whole system is pretty trivial and simplistic.
Besides, if the game lost Smiting damage, it has now Retaliation; rangers and mesmers can still interrupt (and there are some traits about interrupting enemies); boon removal and condition removal have replaced enchantment and hex removal, the latter something eternally imbalanced in GW1; and so on.
Guild Wars also had some retaliation type skills. Rangers and Mesmers have nowhere near the interrupt capacity they had in Guild Wars, and what does exist is fairly cumbersome. Boons and conditions in GW2 pale in comparison to what Guild Wars had in enchantments, hexes and conditions.
But the worst part of it is, they had all those good systems already designed in Guild Wars. They could have brought them over and made GW2 so much better. GW2 is clearly not about skill acquisition as a form of character progression, so why didn’t they just implement a lot more of the abilities they already created?
I’ll tell you why. Because the whole skill system in GW2 is rushed and half-baked. They spent so much time on everything else that they didn’t really have time to finish the skill system and combat. The lack of skill variety is only a small piece of that puzzle. Another really big piece is how nearly all skills lack some or all of a description as to what exactly they do. And then add to that the fact that all classes have only one or two elites that can be used underwater. And I’m sure other players could add a lot more to this.
Edit: Oh yeah, here’s a perfect example of a completely useless skill description.
Shield of the Avenger
Summon an arcane shield to defend you.
Duration: 20 s
Range: 600
I still cannot believe they put something that useless in the game. How does it defend me? What does it do? Why should I use it? When should I use it? Going to the Wiki, you can find this additional information:
- Spirit Weapons begin cooling down once they disappear.
- The shield follows behind the guardian and periodically generates a Shield of Absorption that absorbs projectiles. The shield generated does not push back.
- The shield will not begin generating the shield until a nearby ally is struck.
And even that is still less useful than what the tooltips had for skills in GW. Sad.
(edited by DocHolliday.5921)
I would love to know how the OP thinks the game should work. How should new items be obtained, for example?
ANet was talking about classic MMO GEAR GRIND. You know, the kind where you have to replace all of your gear because a new PVP season has started or because a new expansion has been introduced?
They’ve validated their stance against that sort of gear grind by correcting their error in making ascended gear obtainable only through fractals. This is why they’ve just introduced these new methods to obtain those items.
Short of having an NPC somewhere simply handing out new items, there’s got to be some means of GAMEPLAY involved in getting new stuff. Unless of course, OP, you have in mind that no new stuff is ever introduced.
Good grief.
QFT. These threads are ridiculous.
People cheering on ANet to turn GW2 into just another run-of-the-mill, dumbed-down WoW clone are ridiculous. Seriously. If you want that crap, WoW is still available. So is Rift. And SW:ToR. And a whole host of other similar games with constant gear upgrades. There is no other half-decent game available for those of us who don’t want that crap.
I would love to know how the OP thinks the game should work. How should new items be obtained, for example?
ANet was talking about classic MMO GEAR GRIND. You know, the kind where you have to replace all of your gear because a new PVP season has started or because a new expansion has been introduced?
They’ve validated their stance against that sort of gear grind by correcting their error in making ascended gear obtainable only through fractals. This is why they’ve just introduced these new methods to obtain those items.
Short of having an NPC somewhere simply handing out new items, there’s got to be some means of GAMEPLAY involved in getting new stuff. Unless of course, OP, you have in mind that no new stuff is ever introduced.
Good grief.
Yes, ANet was talking about classic gear grind, and now we have that. Or did you miss the Ascended gear that got added? And no, dailies where it takes a whole month to get one piece of ascended gear do NOT correct the error. Not even close.
They knew exactly what those of us coming from GW wanted, and the statements they made were essentially a promise that we’d get exactly the same kind of gear progression as in GW: none, once you hit level cap.
Based on their statements, there should, in fact, be NPCs standing around in cities handing out gear with max stats, for trivial amounts of gold. Now, that gear wouldn’t necessarily be very pretty, but stat-wise it would be as good as it gets. If you also want to look pretty/awesome/whatever, well, that requires some time and effort. That’s what they meant by their statements about “no gear grind”. Or at least, that’s what we were supposed to believe they meant. Whether they straight-up lied to us or simply deceived us with half-truths makes little difference. They knew how their statements would be interpreted, then they implemented stuff that flies directly in the face of it.
30 Laurels per Amulet is too much. You can get only 1 per month wtf… + infusions extra month.
but it gives longevity to playing, i suppose. if the daily gave you ~900 laurels, you could have everything you wanted sooner, thus getting bored quicker, because you have everything in a few minutes.
i am normally all-for getting stuff cheap and early (though i kind of pace myself), and have made peace with the current laurel prices. i just hope the prices don’t INCREASE with all of the griping about laurels.
> get it while the gettin’s good
You’re totally missing the point. Guild Wars isn’t supposed to be about spending lots of time acquiring gear based on stats, yet that’s exactly what Ascended gear is. You can’t even see the gear on characters. You should literally be able to walk up to a vendor and buy these things for 2 gold each. That’s how the first GW worked, and that’s how they led us to believe GW2 would work.
The ONLY gear “upgrade” in all of GW that you could do that couldn’t be bought with money was infusion, which was a lot like infusion in GW2, in that it reduced the damage you took from a special enemy ability called “spectral agony”. The difference, however, was that infusion involved running one special quest inside an instance that took about 15 minutes in an average group, and then your whole set of armor was infused. And even that could be bought with gold by paying someone to run you to the turn-in for infusion.
I don’t recall green weapons being bought with plat unless you were buying them from another player that had to go out into the world and earn it first. And they had better stat combinations than your average max stat weapon.
No they didn’t. Green weapons simply came with all upgrades already on them. You could build your own identical weapon with vendor weapons and upgrades from traders.
Highly desirable upgrades were also pretty expensive at the time, which was the only reason greens were worth anything.
(edited by DocHolliday.5921)
30 Laurels per Amulet is too much. You can get only 1 per month wtf… + infusions extra month.
but it gives longevity to playing, i suppose. if the daily gave you ~900 laurels, you could have everything you wanted sooner, thus getting bored quicker, because you have everything in a few minutes.
i am normally all-for getting stuff cheap and early (though i kind of pace myself), and have made peace with the current laurel prices. i just hope the prices don’t INCREASE with all of the griping about laurels.
> get it while the gettin’s good
You’re totally missing the point. Guild Wars isn’t supposed to be about spending lots of time acquiring gear based on stats, yet that’s exactly what Ascended gear is. You can’t even see the gear on characters. You should literally be able to walk up to a vendor and buy these things for 2 gold each. That’s how the first GW worked, and that’s how they led us to believe GW2 would work.
The ONLY gear “upgrade” in all of GW that you could do that couldn’t be bought with money was infusion, which was a lot like infusion in GW2, in that it reduced the damage you took from a special enemy ability called “spectral agony”. The difference, however, was that infusion involved running one special quest inside an instance that took about 15 minutes in an average group, and then your whole set of armor was infused. And even that could be bought with gold by paying someone to run you to the turn-in for infusion.
GW1 wasn’t a grind for gear, but there sure as hell was a grind for skills.
Yes, in EotN, which was rather disappointing to me for that reason. But even there, those were horizontal upgrades rather than vertical. They didn’t make your character more powerful, they just gave you some new options. And I largely ignored them.
Like it’s been pointed out, your skill variety from GW1 was not at all what it was when it came out. We will get more utilities, elites, weapons (and maybe we will get to customize those weapons) over time, like we did in GW1, and like it happens in every other MMO. This will not be the end of your variety, nor do I think the combat system will remain so static that it will never add new mechanics or skill types that will result in new playstyles and builds.
To be honest, I’m of the opposite opinion where combat in GW1 was boring and repetitive for me (I don’t agree there’s no skill/build variety in GW2). You has a lot of skill variety that you could combine in different ways and customize your efficiency with them, but the fighting in and of itself felt very static to me. It had a lot of thinking, but not a lot of dynamics or really engaging your enemy like you can in GW2 (or actively layering skills with instant-casting/channeling). I played it and enjoyed it for the story, but spending a lot of time in combat in the open world ended up just being tedious to me.
I was there in GW Prophecies from the beginning. I started 1 or 2 weeks after release. It had way more skills even at that time than GW2 has now. But quantity is only a small part of it. It had far, far more skill variety than GW2 does. The skill system in GW2 is just overall far more simple. Hexes/curses are gone. There’s nothing resembling smiting damage. Degen/regen is implemented completely differently, exactly like in every other MMO. Boons are a pale imitation and nothing really at all like enchantments (shatter enchantment, anyone?). There’s nothing really to cause you to be all that careful how and when you use your abilities. With the exception of a few “oh ****” abilities, you use them when they come off cooldown and that’s that. (Yes there’s some few exceptions to that last statement, but the point still stands.)
I honestly didn’t watch my skill usage in GW1 any more then than I do now—I had some sort of buffer that I need to around manage around (energy/cooldowns), control skills I had to manage timing of so as not to waste, and I had skills that were important for specific situations but dropped where they would be useless, which I also have now (I just don’t have to wait to get back to a town to change them) in both skills and traits.
And while I dearly miss proper hexes I don’t think our class mechanic variety was a lot more, in the beginning, than it is now. Classes still have 3-4 different ideas that they focus around, and these ideas function differently between classes like they did before, even in overlapping areas (like summons).
If variety has been lost, I would say it’s not in individual classes as much as it is the loss of dual professions—because our skill list didn’t actually center around 3-4 ideas, it centered around 6-8. There was more breadth because you had a customizable overlap where you could specialize in 3-4 ideas between two different class concepts (or spread yourself out to 5-6-7 ideas, if you wanted), rather than just the ones your class was designed around.
I agree with you for the most part. Except for having to be careful about using skills. Just a few examples… first, mesmer or ranger interrupt builds. Should be obvious. But second, you also had to be careful depending on what enemy hexes you had on you. And depending on what skills the enemies had, you had to be very careful when to use skills (for example, don’t use healing breeze if you know someone hkittenter enchantment off recharge). That’s just a few examples I thought of quickly. I’m sure if I were to go back and play GW again (which is seeming more and more likely of late) I’d find a lot more.
30 Laurels per Amulet is too much. You can get only 1 per month wtf… + infusions extra month.
but it gives longevity to playing, i suppose. if the daily gave you ~900 laurels, you could have everything you wanted sooner, thus getting bored quicker, because you have everything in a few minutes.
i am normally all-for getting stuff cheap and early (though i kind of pace myself), and have made peace with the current laurel prices. i just hope the prices don’t INCREASE with all of the griping about laurels.
> get it while the gettin’s good
You’re totally missing the point. Guild Wars isn’t supposed to be about spending lots of time acquiring gear based on stats, yet that’s exactly what Ascended gear is. You can’t even see the gear on characters. You should literally be able to walk up to a vendor and buy these things for 2 gold each. That’s how the first GW worked, and that’s how they led us to believe GW2 would work.
The ONLY gear “upgrade” in all of GW that you could do that couldn’t be bought with money was infusion, which was a lot like infusion in GW2, in that it reduced the damage you took from a special enemy ability called “spectral agony”. The difference, however, was that infusion involved running one special quest inside an instance that took about 15 minutes in an average group, and then your whole set of armor was infused. And even that could be bought with gold by paying someone to run you to the turn-in for infusion.
In the end for the average player as in WoW you spend ALL your time simply grinding better gear and no time actually just doing whatever the hell you want. And all the signs are there that this is what they have planned for GW2.
I figure I fall into the “average” category as an ex-wow junkie who burnt out from the gear treadmill (a real gear treadmill, not some philosophical potential for one). I play about 10 hours a week, maybe.
I see no reason to spend my time “grinding” better gear than my exotics. I don’t play high-level fractals, and I can do any part of the game I please. There’s no incentive to grind the max gear besides the fact that it has higher stats. Those higher stats are negligible to me.
Now, why do higher stats matter to you?
Really? Seriously? I’m not even going to bother copy-pasting. READ my previous post. I already answered that.
Except you didn’t, you explained how it affects “gameplay” and how it affects “the average player” but not how it affects you personally, which is what I was asking.
Yes I did. You’re trying to demand that I spell out everything word for word because you just want to argue. Sorry, but I don’t play that game, and you’ve posted nothing worthwhile to earn you that kind of respect. In fact, you’ve posted nothing worthwhile at all.
So the quote proves no forced grind. It says they put in grind for amazing skins, but not for best gear. There is no grind for best gear as you get the mats/karma/coin just by playing
You do get the distinction between mandatory and non-mandatory grinds and that’s good. A grind for cosmetic skins is non-mandatory. You will be in no way disadvantaged in terms of play by not doing the grind. A mandatory grind is one that you need to do to keep up with stat inflation. This is the kind of grind WoW has. If you don’t keep up with the increasing power level of the game, eventually you will be unable to play. Mandatory.
On 11/15 Anet introduced vertical progression into the game. This is the game element that produces a mandatory grind. Previous to that it was about cosmetic differences only and non-mandatory. Usually you will see people attempting to defend Anet by minimizing the significance of the initial pieces of gear. Consider the words making up the concept. Vertical: the power level increases. Progression: it periodically increases over time. You can see by the definition that there will come a time that you will be forced to grind to maintain your characters power level with the increasing power level of the game. It is mandatory in order to be on par with other players and to keep up with the power level of the environment.
So, it is good to understand the difference between mandatory and non-mandatory grinds. It is also helpful to understand the significance of the elements of game design. Vertical progression is an element you introduce to create a mandatory gear grind. It’s not my idea, it’s inherent in the very definition of the concept. It’s a choice developers make. Ultimately, you can either like or dislike the mandatory gear grind we have had introduced on 11/15. But, it’s not an option to say it doesn’t exist.
This. Exactly. The worst part is, they specifically stated they won’t introduce another new tier of gear.. this year. Which very very heavily implies that it’s coming later. If they didn’t intend to do it ever, they’d have stated so plainly. Ascended gear is only the beginning.
At this point, the only way they can demonstrate that they’re going to stick to their word going forward is by making top-tier gear (with blah skins) available from armor vendors for a fairly trivial amount of gold, such that a new player would probably have enough money to buy a full set upon hitting 80 if he hadn’t spent money on other things. Since Ascended gear is now top-tier, this means vendors selling ugly Ascended gear for gold, at no more than 2-5 gold per piece.
Of course, we all know that’s very unlikely to happen. And along with that, they’re very unlikely to get more money from me.
If they raise the level cap, I’m done. This is supposed to be a sequel to Guild Wars, not “World of Guild Wars”. Any more stupid questions?
I think I’m beginning to see why most people here like the GW2 skills better than GW1, and why they don’t understand how GW1 was more interesting. It seems most people don’t really know how to see the potential of all the different skills and how to put together builds on their own.
This is evidenced by all the fallacious claims of “a lot of clone skills” and “I only used 25 skills”. If that’s the way you saw GW1’s skill system, that’s a very distorted view. Even Prophecies had a lot more potential than that. I know it did, because I was there. I myself found lots of interesting ways to use skills, and virtually none of them were useless. Over the course of the 3000+ hours I played, I found uses for nearly every skill in the game. Yes, even the ones that actually were clone skills. Sometimes it was useful to have a second copy to use when the first was on recharge.
Did Guild Wars Prophecies start out with over 200 skills for each class? NO! all those extra skills, classes ect came in expansions. Chill out people kitten Its already been said that classes will be given more weapons to use in the future.
And yet despite that, the skill system in Prophecies had way more variety and was way more interesting than anything GW2 has to offer. Why exactly do you think that is?
I come from WoW, where you have at least 4 or 5 action bars on your screen at any given time, and 90% of my skills don’t even get used on a regular basis. At the time, I felt appreciation for the “complexity” of the game, but looking back on it I think it was just poor game design. I much prefer GW2’s approach, with a single, tight action bar.
Could I appreciate having more skills? Sure, if they’re as good as the ones I already have, and are balanced fairly. But 200? No, thank you!
I would bet ANet will add more skills over time, though it’s hard to say how many, and when. How many skills did GW1 let you have equipped, at one time?
Guild Wars let you have 8 skills on your bar at one time, but you had complete control over all of them. People came up with some really crazy builds that could do things the devs never expected (like the original 55HP monk with prot bond). I believe that’s ultimately what lead them to breaking off development for GW and changing the skill system in GW2… but the old system was still way more fun.
Like it’s been pointed out, your skill variety from GW1 was not at all what it was when it came out. We will get more utilities, elites, weapons (and maybe we will get to customize those weapons) over time, like we did in GW1, and like it happens in every other MMO. This will not be the end of your variety, nor do I think the combat system will remain so static that it will never add new mechanics or skill types that will result in new playstyles and builds.
To be honest, I’m of the opposite opinion where combat in GW1 was boring and repetitive for me (I don’t agree there’s no skill/build variety in GW2). You has a lot of skill variety that you could combine in different ways and customize your efficiency with them, but the fighting in and of itself felt very static to me. It had a lot of thinking, but not a lot of dynamics or really engaging your enemy like you can in GW2 (or actively layering skills with instant-casting/channeling). I played it and enjoyed it for the story, but spending a lot of time in combat in the open world ended up just being tedious to me.
I was there in GW Prophecies from the beginning. I started 1 or 2 weeks after release. It had way more skills even at that time than GW2 has now. But quantity is only a small part of it. It had far, far more skill variety than GW2 does. The skill system in GW2 is just overall far more simple. Hexes/curses are gone. There’s nothing resembling smiting damage. Degen/regen is implemented completely differently, exactly like in every other MMO. Boons are a pale imitation and nothing really at all like enchantments (shatter enchantment, anyone?). There’s nothing really to cause you to be all that careful how and when you use your abilities. With the exception of a few “oh ****” abilities, you use them when they come off cooldown and that’s that. (Yes there’s some few exceptions to that last statement, but the point still stands.)
In the end for the average player as in WoW you spend ALL your time simply grinding better gear and no time actually just doing whatever the hell you want. And all the signs are there that this is what they have planned for GW2.
I figure I fall into the “average” category as an ex-wow junkie who burnt out from the gear treadmill (a real gear treadmill, not some philosophical potential for one). I play about 10 hours a week, maybe.
I see no reason to spend my time “grinding” better gear than my exotics. I don’t play high-level fractals, and I can do any part of the game I please. There’s no incentive to grind the max gear besides the fact that it has higher stats. Those higher stats are negligible to me.
Now, why do higher stats matter to you?
Really? Seriously? I’m not even going to bother copy-pasting. READ my previous post. I already answered that.
For me, it basically boils down to this. They have about 6 months (maybe less) to fix the fiasco with Ascended gear. And that basically means making Ascended gear as easy-to-obtain as needed for proper non-grindy horizontal progression. Or in other words, about as easy to get as max-stat gear was in GW:Prophecies. Otherwise, I’m gone. This current BS is not what I was promised and not what I signed up for. If they want more of my money then they need to deliver what they advertised.
Why is max-stat gear so important to you when it by and large doesn’t affect your gameplay in the slightest?
That’s a completely meaningless argument. If higher stats on gear doesn’t affect gameplay, there’s absolutely no reason to put it in the game at all. But you see, it does, because even small increases on stats make content easier. And most players like content to be easier. That’s the whole point of getting better gear in RPGs, always has been. It changes the risk/reward ratio and improves it in your favor.
But that’s all kind of aside to the whole issue at hand, which is the gear treadmill.
What makes a gear treadmill isn’t just specifically having gear with better stats in the game. It’s adding gear with better stats after the fact, where that gear can be obtained without extreme difficulty by the average player, but with an excessive time requirement. As a result, you’re expected to obtain it (and new content is thus balanced around the better gear) no matter how frustratingly long it takes to get it. This is where old games like EQ were different. There was very rare gear with better stats… but it was so rare that the average player wasn’t really expected to ever get it, and there was no content designed around it. And then, of course, the ongoing gear treadmill is add more better gear, rinse and repeat. In the end for the average player as in WoW you spend ALL your time simply grinding better gear and no time actually just doing whatever the hell you want. And all the signs are there that this is what they have planned for GW2. As a former GW1 player and based on what they told us GW2 would be, this is not acceptable at all.
(edited by DocHolliday.5921)
I loved GW1 unique skill system, with the way we could play endlessly with it; what I hated was that it mattered little, as most players wanted you to use cookie cutter builds for this or that, therefore negating the game’s greatest advantage-its build diversity.
There’s variety in GW2; it’s just very different, and ironically enough, despite the lesser number of build variety, one does have more freedom to use whatever works for you, and there’s no real need for specific builds in order to do well (despite whatever some may think.)
And the reason you have the freedom to use “whatever works” is because there’s a lot less variety to begin with. There’s a lot less meaningful difference between builds in GW2 as compared to GW1. You have melee DPS, melee dps/support, ranged dps, ranged dps/support. And that’s it. Every class can do everything. And they do basically all the same stuff only in slightly different ways. There’s no particular skill to running a necromancer “minion master” build in GW2. It’s just like a ranger more or less, only with a few more pets. There’s no such thing as a necro hex build, no such thing as a mesmer interrupt build, and never mind the fact that the dedicated healer (and along with it smiting damage) is completely gone.
I would certainly not complain about having more skills to work with, especially if they are as fun as the current.
However a lot of people are missing that a lot of the gameplay has been shifted away from sheer number of skills and rather towards timing of skill use, combinations, and character movement, including dodge.
No, we’re not missing that. We’re just getting bored with that already. Because you can’t ever iterate on that. You can’t add anything new and groundbreaking to that. Sure, you can add a few more skills and a few more combo fields but it all plays the same. There’s nothing that will ever force us to completely rethink our skill builds, nothing to force us to completely rethink our playstyles, nothing to make new content any different than current content. It doesn’t allow for any truly new class mechanics with a new class. It’s so very limiting on what they can do with this game long-term.
For me, it basically boils down to this. They have about 6 months (maybe less) to fix the fiasco with Ascended gear. And that basically means making Ascended gear as easy-to-obtain as needed for proper non-grindy horizontal progression. Or in other words, about as easy to get as max-stat gear was in GW:Prophecies. Otherwise, I’m gone. This current BS is not what I was promised and not what I signed up for. If they want more of my money then they need to deliver what they advertised.
Sorry about the title. I don’t actually think it’s much of a treadmill, I just used it to get people in the topic :/
Do not give in to these ignorant fanbois. It IS a grind. Gear progression used to be horizontal, meaning you only acquired a new skin beyond the pitifully easy exotic gear to acquire. Now, according to your calculations AND even accounting for “alternative methods” being introduced in the future, it will take MONTHS of DAILY effort to get one set of ascended gear for ONE character and that ascended gear will have stats for ONE BUILD.
Anyone who says this is not a grind is being >willfully ignorant<.
/thread
This has to be sarcasm. I like how people put /thread like they have the last word and NOBODY is allowed to post after them.
By your definition, the game already had a vertical treadmill. Even having white, blue, green gear would be a treadmill because there is a stat increase and it isn’t just visual.
Who would want to play a game where all stats and weapons were exactly the same? PvE players definitely don’t. PvP, sure, which is why in PvP all gear and weapons are equivalent statistically, only differ visually.
You’re clearly just arguing for the sake of arguing. Which is, by definition, trolling.
What I’m finding here in this thread is the emerging issue that, at the core, players do not find the tasks in the game fun, so they immediately turn it into a “treadmill”.
So, I think the bigger problem is that the game itself just isn’t resonating with players, regardless of the reward or progression structure.
You might think that but you would be wrong. The problem is that the false advertising is not resonating with players.
Yeah I also was (still am) very disappointed with the route they chose to go, having the weapons determine have your skills. I do understand it. I do. I just don’t like it. I miss the monk almost as much. The combination of these things often makes the combat in GW2 feel a lot less interesting because it often feels like all the classes do exactly the same stuff only in slightly different ways.
That said, the variety in utility skills is even worse. There’s less of them than in GW1, and many of the ones we have are borderline useless.
But what gets me the most is the HUGE lack of Elites. Most classes have only two that can be used underwater, some have only 1. And several of the elites that ARE in the game are not even class-specific, but race-specific. None of them are really all that interesting. And all of them are essentially “oh-kitten” buttons with long recharges.
If I could have GW1’s skill system and combat in GW2 I’d take it without hesitation.
It’s not a treadmill until they add another tier. Until then, they can claim that is was merely a mistake to release the game without Ascended gear in already. If they add a new tier above without adding levels then it certainly is a treadmill in nature.
What I take issue with is the idea that they can do both vertical and horizontal progression at the same time. There’s a huge problem with that theory in the fact that horizontal progression is based heavily on different builds and testing out different options. In order to do that, you need more than one set of armor at a given level. You need your damage armor, your support armor, your condition damage armor, or your whatever. I already have two exotic sets of head, shoulder, chest, gloves, pants and boots.
While getting one set of exotics is easy enough, getting multiple sets to do multiple things is a bit harder. With exotics, the time investment to do such was at just about the sweet spot for horizontal progression. If you wanted to try out a build other than your usual build and the build required different stats in order to work best then you weren’t punished for wanting to progress in a horizontal fashion.
But the time investment for Ascended gear and the availability of access to the items is not the same situation. ANet realizes this and acknowledges it by their own bit by bit release of Ascended gear. By the time there is a full set of Ascended gear out there, the time investment involved will be high enough that it will actively discourage build experimentation at optimal level.
Of course, you can say having best in slot doesn’t matter, but we all know that anyone who plays games at a more than casual value would not agree. People want best in slot to see their performance at the optimum level attainable. That is the nature not just of MMOs, but in about any genre out there.
So in the end, Horizontal and Vertical cannot coexist, because the time increase of vertical progression gets in the way of the ease of variation of horizontal progression.
Ok, so technically you can excuse them for the ascended gear and say it’s not a treadmill… yet. Technically. But all the traits are there: new gear tier after release with better stats, lots of time to acquire, can only be acquired by doing top-level PvE content or very very slowly by doing dailies.
I definitely agree with the rest of your post though. Well, except for the time investment in horizontal progression with Exotics. I still think that takes way too much time/resources. It’s just not in the spirit of GW, at all.
i cant see how players defend that gear progression just by stating that SOME players want it. GW2 was Announced and build as a game WITHOUT gear progression, which is one very important point at this game, and most gw2 players, especially those coming from gw1, love about it. This game does not need gear progression, and im saying that as someone who was lvl 80 and had his first full exotic set in the first month, if this is not what you think, this game is just not for you.
Yes, SOME players might like a gear progression, but then gtfo my game, why did you even came to gw2 in the first place? Just to ruin it for us, when you KNEW exactly that gw2 wasnt supposed to have any kind of gear progression?
let me explain why wow and its community is so much hated everywhere:
new game comes out, finally some (or at least a bit) new mechanics and ideas to the standardized mmo genre, oh hurray lets quit wow and start playing it, just to complain after 1-2 months that it doesnt have the content and the same mechanics as wow so they introduce it, and then leave the game and go back to wow again because it still doesnt have as much content, tyvm!Im pretty sure the elder scrolls online will introduce a new UI after the first few months (or perhaps even during the beta), with a skillbar to slot your different attacks in, instead of attacking and blocking with the mouse.
If ESO is anything more than WoW in Tamriel I’ll be highly surprised. No, my money says it’s just another Warhammer/Rift/ToR that has one “really amazing” new feature and leaves out half of all the stuff that made WoW as fun as it was.
All excellent points, couldn’t have said it better myself. However I wouldn’t go so far as to say I would not put up with any more vertical progression. I’ll keep playing if they keep all future (inevitable) vertical progression out of sPvP AND WvW.
Not me. If I wanted vertical progression in my PvE I’d never have quit playing WoW, or Rift, or SW:ToR. And if I disliked those for any other reason, I still have hundreds or thousands of other MMORPGs out there with indefinite ongoing vertical PvE gear progression to try. If I liked gear grinding. But I don’t.
That was probably the best part of Nightfall for me – the ability to get max-stat gear literally 20 minutes after creating a new character. Then you can quit worrying about gear and just have fun.
I pretty much agree with DocHolliday, but there is one bit of misinformation there. Ascended (or gear in general) isn’t an issue in sPvP because you don’t use your PvE gear there. The gear for sPvP is completely separate, and is all exotic currently. It’s also all freely available (stat-wise). It’s still an issue in wvw, and any future game modes that don’t segregate to use the sPvP gear system.
It’s more than an issue of “if you don’t like it, don’t play it”. I do like it, or at least I did. Bugs aside, the game was fine at release, but that is not-so-slowly changing. Repeated bad decisions are turning away a lot of the fanbase of the previous game, in an attempt to lure in the fans of other MMOs with an appetite for content that Anet (or any other dev) will never be able to appease. You’ll keep them till they have their new gear, while everyone else leaves becaues the entire treadmill pace is being set by these players. Once they have their gear, what happens? Add more gear to get them back for another couple months, while ensuring the rest of us never come back?
Apologies on the incorrect assumption about sPvP. I haven’t done any yet, because I’m still grinding gear, and I hate doing PvP undergeared.
Also, completely agree with your post.
If indeed there is a ‘gear treadmill’, it is not created by ANet, it’s created by players who come into gw2 with mentalities from other games.
Yes, it is going to take you a long time to get these things. It’s MEANT TO. You’re not supposed to be spending every waking minute working towards a goal of a full ascended set. That is such a small part of the game. You can only work towards it little by little because if you didn’t it would be a gear treadmill. ANet have done what they can to satisfy everyone, and still not turn the game into a clone of other mmo gear grinders.
You are supposed to play the game. Enjoy the game. Make friends, explore the world become good players. Along the way you’re going to pick up points and tokens and a bunch of other stuff, then, one day you’re going to realise that you can buy something with these things. I say ‘buy’ for want of a better word, the game owes you nothing for giving you enjoyment, just like ANet itself owes you nothing. But still, they give, and you can get better gear. It’s there if you want it. It is not necessary by definition in game. The only people that make it so are the players who look down on other players for not having the gear.
Solution: everyone needs to realise this is a game, not a living. It’s a game, if you don’t enjoy playing, it’s probably not the game for you. If you do, then play it! Don’t turn it into full time employment and look down on others when their ‘fun’ isn’t as hardcore or powerful as yours.
Wrong in so many ways.
First, players can never create a gear treadmill. That’s all on the game developers.
Second, As for the better gear not being necessary, did you miss the fact that PvP is a HUGE part of this game? Many players play this JUST for the PvP. Sure, the extra stats on better gear may not be that big a deal in WvW, but you can bet your kitten it is in anything more structured. And for that matter, if you really think it doesn’t matter, please tell me you do all your playing in just plain old white gear. After all, every quality level better only adds a few stats, surely it’s not necessary?
Thirdly, getting top-stat gear was always easy in GW1. That’s the spirit of the game. That’s one of the things that set it apart and made it attractive to those of us who are sick and tired of having to waste hours on end just to get the gear needed to run the content we want to run. Even exotic gear takes way too much time to acquire in this game. Seriously. No gear in GW2 should have better stats than rare quality gear. Exotic and Ascended gear should be different in appearance only. There’s already a billion and one MMORPGs out there that allow you to keep grinding and replacing gear forever, why on earth would you want that crap in GW2? So it’s just another run-of-the-mill MMORPG, except with chaotic group PvE instead of a trinity? Because that’s what it’s rapidly turning into.
I, for one, will not put up with ANY more vertical progression of any kind in GW2. Higher levels, another level of better gear, and I’m gone. Just like that. I’ve been there done that in way too many other games, and I’m DONE with gear grinds. They’ve already assured they won’t see any more money from me for a long while until I can be 100% sure they’re not going to screw it up further.
Yeah Aisina.. Thats what i was getting at.. I play the game a ton. I play on many different alts – I do what the group needs. Hey we’re doing AC and we dont have an ele yet? guess what – Ill play ele!
But like you said. Dailys on the account dont help me gear everyone. I’m full exotic on 6 toons so far – It will be 8 before I ever consider their “end game” legendary skins. I was happy with that call. I’m NOT happy to take 6 months to get every toon on par.
=(Then run FotM. What exactly is it you people want? What other MMO hands out top-tiered items for nothing?
GW1 – and it was good.
ANet is giving you the traditional method to obtain them (run dungeons), and they’re giving you an alternative, casual-friendly method of obtaining them, long-term though it may be.
We didn’t ask them for neither. We were perfectly okay with the exotics, and the multiple way we could have obtained them, thank you very much. We didn’t want Anet to take what they’ve already done (and done well) and hrow it in the dustbin to placate 1% elitists that won’t be satisfied by it anyway.
Not to mention Anet apparently used this as an excuse to narrow the number of supported builds (seeing as half of them don’t have their ascended eq).
Yeah GW1 was better in so many ways. If my account hadn’t got hacked I’d probably have quit this game already and gone back to it.
(edited by DocHolliday.5921)