But the benefits are still there, whether or not they make a difference to the match.
Wow, that’s rich. If there’s a benefit, they make a difference. If they don’t make a difference, there’s no benefit. This is not opinion, this is fact.
It’s the principle of taking away rewards that people earned because you don’t feel like you should have to earn them.
That’s 100% the wrong principle to be promoting in PvP. The correct principle is that people shouldn’t have some arbitrary advantage because they had the time and the patience to do some arbitrary and completely unrelated task.
We should get rid of level 400 foods in wvw because crafting Cooking to 400 is too much of a grind.
Dunno why people keep saying this, its a fallacy, food and oils are easily available via the TP.
So are legendaries and ascended mats. You’re dodging the main balance issue: level 400 foods are expensive and for the large amount of players who barely have rare level gear they are out of reach.
You are creating a distinction without difference, since you’re into fallacies and all.
Way to intentionally ignore context. “Easily” in this case obviously means “cheap enough for most players to afford.”
Legendaries are not cheap. Ascended mats are not cheap. You can’t craft all ascended gear. Ignoring these differences just reveals the fact that you don’t care about the truth at all, but would rather just spout whatever nonsense you feel like.
Ascended > Exotic. Therefore remove Ascended gear.
Exotic > Rare. Therefore remove Exotic gear.
Rare > Masterwork. Therefore remove Rare.
Masterwork > White. Therefore remove Masterwork.I think the complainers would be happy if everyone was on the same level – Basic White gear. But they fail to realize that WvW is not SPvP. If they’re not happy with WvW, they should stick to the structured PvP part of the game, where everything is even.
But hark, there’s more:
Superior Runes can give an unfair advantage as well, since they add bonus stats to a player’s attributes. And since Superior Runes are so hard to come by in WvW… well, you know how the current argument goes.
The “complainers” appear to be the majority of the people who play WvWvW. Maybe you should go over to those forums and tell them exactly how their game mode is supposed to work and why their opinions mean nothing? Clearly, you’re the only person who’s opinion actually matters, right?
If you were talking about PvP you would be right. But we are talking about PvEvP, where time does make a difference.
And why, exactly, should the time someone spends in fractals or doing dailies have any more bearing on WvWvW than on sPvP? It shouldn’t. It’s still PvP. It’s still intended to be competitive.
And this right here is where your whole argument breaks down. You clearly do not understand the point of WvWvW. You simply disagree with how WvWvW was intentionally designed, what it was intentionally designed to simulate. It was literally designed to simulate an open world Faction Vs Faction Vs Faction game something LIKE Dark of Age of Camelot, where it is a meld of PvP and PvE, and that is the reason why PvE has an effect on this mode of play, because it is a meld of PvE and PvP.
I do understand that. I simply believe that I, and many others, prefer to do that without the gear disparity. Perhaps you’re not understanding that many (if not the majority) of PvP (and WvWvW) players here come from the first GW. It had PvEvP as well. You could use your PvE gear in it, yes, but it didn’t matter because the only difference was cosmetics. If ArenaNet wanted to keep those players around, they needed to translate that to GW2. They didn’t, and I strongly believe that’s a big reason why WvWvW and GW2 in general are rapidly turning into a ghost town on many servers. I also believe that if they made changes as suggested by the OP here, they’d get some of those players back – as well as retain more current players.
Ascended gear came out just a few months after release, and since then (1 year anniversary) Anet has stated that WvWvW currently has more players playing it each day then the highest total number of logins on any given day with Guild Wars 1. What you think is happening, and what Anet has stated did happen, don’t seem to match up.
So I did a quick browse of the WvW forums, and you’re right about this one thing: it’s not the ghost town I thought it was. But the argument there is even more against ascended gear than the one in this thread. Most people want it gone; only a few players who don’t want to lose their gear advantage are arguing in favor of it. So for whatever reason, most players who DO participate in WvW feel it makes a difference and they don’t want it.
you can only say “most players” on a particular forum thread wants…. we ourselves have no hard data of what the general player base for WvWvW wants.
So go over to the WvW forums and check. Actually, I’ll even save you the trouble and just post the link to a current thread there about this.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/wuv/wuv/Discussion-Ascended-gear-from-WvW
See, the entire issue here is that players like yourself don’t grasp the mentality of PvP players. PvP players don’t care how much difference a piece of better gear makes. If it’s BiS, they need it. A real PvPer doesn’t play to win “most of the time”. A real PvPer plays to win ALL the time, and any advantage that can be had is a must. So what if it only gives you 10 more hps? If you’ve played a lot of PvP, you have at some point had a situation where having 10 hps more or 10 hps less would have made the difference between a win and a loss. Even just losing one like that is too much.
Okay so we’re just going to ignore that WvW is about large scale warfare and siege tactics in favor of making sure that there’s perfectly balanced 1v1 competition?
Can we please stop talking about WvW under the the same lens as structured/tournament PvP?
Talk about missing the forest for the trees.
No PvP in GW is or has ever been about perfectly balanced 1v1 competition. They don’t even allow duals like WoW did, kitten , for that very reason. None of this has the least bit relevance on this discussion though. Every single argument here in favor of keeping the advantage from ascended gear has been demonstrated to be without merit.
Yes, so the only actual improvement in GW2 is the persistent world, and even that is still somewhat instanced as you can only get from one zone to another through portals. (See WoW for how to do it right.) The only other advantage I can think of for GW2 is the AH – and that’s also not nearly as good as in many other MMOs. Everything else in GW2 is worse or at least no better than GW1. That’s just… sad.
Yes I really think they made a colossal mistake in leaving out the best parts of the original game: the skill depth & variety, the amount of build choice through secondary classes, skill capping, elite skills, mobs using player skills with decent AI.
As with any software product, the bits you replace have to be better than the bits you’re replacing, and in GW2, they aren’t.
Also agree 100%. Thank you for a great post.
If you were talking about PvP you would be right. But we are talking about PvEvP, where time does make a difference.
And why, exactly, should the time someone spends in fractals or doing dailies have any more bearing on WvWvW than on sPvP? It shouldn’t. It’s still PvP. It’s still intended to be competitive.
And this right here is where your whole argument breaks down. You clearly do not understand the point of WvWvW. You simply disagree with how WvWvW was intentionally designed, what it was intentionally designed to simulate. It was literally designed to simulate an open world Faction Vs Faction Vs Faction game something LIKE Dark of Age of Camelot, where it is a meld of PvP and PvE, and that is the reason why PvE has an effect on this mode of play, because it is a meld of PvE and PvP.
I do understand that. I simply believe that I, and many others, prefer to do that without the gear disparity. Perhaps you’re not understanding that many (if not the majority) of PvP (and WvWvW) players here come from the first GW. It had PvEvP as well. You could use your PvE gear in it, yes, but it didn’t matter because the only difference was cosmetics. If ArenaNet wanted to keep those players around, they needed to translate that to GW2. They didn’t, and I strongly believe that’s a big reason why WvWvW and GW2 in general are rapidly turning into a ghost town on many servers. I also believe that if they made changes as suggested by the OP here, they’d get some of those players back – as well as retain more current players.
Ascended gear came out just a few months after release, and since then (1 year anniversary) Anet has stated that WvWvW currently has more players playing it each day then the highest total number of logins on any given day with Guild Wars 1. What you think is happening, and what Anet has stated did happen, don’t seem to match up.
So I did a quick browse of the WvW forums, and you’re right about this one thing: it’s not the ghost town I thought it was. But the argument there is even more against ascended gear than the one in this thread. Most people want it gone; only a few players who don’t want to lose their gear advantage are arguing in favor of it. So for whatever reason, most players who DO participate in WvW feel it makes a difference and they don’t want it.
you can only say “most players” on a particular forum thread wants…. we ourselves have no hard data of what the general player base for WvWvW wants.
So go over to the WvW forums and check. Actually, I’ll even save you the trouble and just post the link to a current thread there about this.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/wuv/wuv/Discussion-Ascended-gear-from-WvW
See, the entire issue here is that players like yourself don’t grasp the mentality of PvP players. PvP players don’t care how much difference a piece of better gear makes. If it’s BiS, they need it. A real PvPer doesn’t play to win “most of the time”. A real PvPer plays to win ALL the time, and any advantage that can be had is a must. So what if it only gives you 10 more hps? If you’ve played a lot of PvP, you have at some point had a situation where having 10 hps more or 10 hps less would have made the difference between a win and a loss. Even just losing one like that is too much.
If you were talking about PvP you would be right. But we are talking about PvEvP, where time does make a difference.
And why, exactly, should the time someone spends in fractals or doing dailies have any more bearing on WvWvW than on sPvP? It shouldn’t. It’s still PvP. It’s still intended to be competitive.
And this right here is where your whole argument breaks down. You clearly do not understand the point of WvWvW. You simply disagree with how WvWvW was intentionally designed, what it was intentionally designed to simulate. It was literally designed to simulate an open world Faction Vs Faction Vs Faction game something LIKE Dark of Age of Camelot, where it is a meld of PvP and PvE, and that is the reason why PvE has an effect on this mode of play, because it is a meld of PvE and PvP.
I do understand that. I simply believe that I, and many others, prefer to do that without the gear disparity. Perhaps you’re not understanding that many (if not the majority) of PvP (and WvWvW) players here come from the first GW. It had PvEvP as well. You could use your PvE gear in it, yes, but it didn’t matter because the only difference was cosmetics. If ArenaNet wanted to keep those players around, they needed to translate that to GW2. They didn’t, and I strongly believe that’s a big reason why WvWvW and GW2 in general are rapidly turning into a ghost town on many servers. I also believe that if they made changes as suggested by the OP here, they’d get some of those players back – as well as retain more current players.
Ascended gear came out just a few months after release, and since then (1 year anniversary) Anet has stated that WvWvW currently has more players playing it each day then the highest total number of logins on any given day with Guild Wars 1. What you think is happening, and what Anet has stated did happen, don’t seem to match up.
So I did a quick browse of the WvW forums, and you’re right about this one thing: it’s not the ghost town I thought it was. But the argument there is even more against ascended gear than the one in this thread. Most people want it gone; only a few players who don’t want to lose their gear advantage are arguing in favor of it. So for whatever reason, most players who DO participate in WvW feel it makes a difference and they don’t want it.
If you were talking about PvP you would be right. But we are talking about PvEvP, where time does make a difference.
And why, exactly, should the time someone spends in fractals or doing dailies have any more bearing on WvWvW than on sPvP? It shouldn’t. It’s still PvP. It’s still intended to be competitive.
And this right here is where your whole argument breaks down. You clearly do not understand the point of WvWvW. You simply disagree with how WvWvW was intentionally designed, what it was intentionally designed to simulate. It was literally designed to simulate an open world Faction Vs Faction Vs Faction game something LIKE Dark of Age of Camelot, where it is a meld of PvP and PvE, and that is the reason why PvE has an effect on this mode of play, because it is a meld of PvE and PvP.
I do understand that. I simply believe that I, and many others, prefer to do that without the gear disparity. Perhaps you’re not understanding that many (if not the majority) of PvP (and WvWvW) players here come from the first GW. It had PvEvP as well. You could use your PvE gear in it, yes, but it didn’t matter because the only difference was cosmetics. If ArenaNet wanted to keep those players around, they needed to translate that to GW2. They didn’t, and I strongly believe that’s a big reason why WvWvW and GW2 in general are rapidly turning into a ghost town on many servers. I also believe that if they made changes as suggested by the OP here, they’d get some of those players back – as well as retain more current players.
Why do you think there was such a huge backlash against ascended gear that ArenaNet felt they had to run damage control? Players didn’t want it at all. Letting it ride in PvP (of ANY format) just makes it even worse.
(edited by DocHolliday.5921)
my point was, theory on paper works because you can control the variables, while theory in practice is difficult because there are many uncontrollable variables.
You can keep focusing on your men of straw and ignore the point of my argument if you prefer.
But that whole argument is a straw man. No one’s been arguing whether or not ascended gear = winning. The argument from the start has always been that it gives an unfair advantage. All those other variables don’t change that one bit. It’s an unfair advantage because it’s an advantage obtained before the competitive match starts, from doing activities that are completely irrelevant to the competitive match. It’s like me getting a few extra pieces in a chess tournament because I downed at least 10 hot dogs in a hot-dog eating contest held by the same people running the chess tournament. No one would play in that chess tournament.
WvWvW has always been that way, since before the game even launched, ascended gear didn’t change that all of the sudden.
It did. Before, eating one or two hot dogs (maybe 5-10, if you’re talking about exotic gear) was enough to get you all the extra pieces. Now, you need at least a few dozen. You’re not going to get them all down in one sitting, so you’re either going to have to put up without the advantage of the extra pieces, or you’re just going to have to wait a while before you play chess.
If you were talking about PvP you would be right. But we are talking about PvEvP, where time does make a difference.
And why, exactly, should the time someone spends in fractals or doing dailies have any more bearing on WvWvW than on sPvP? It shouldn’t. It’s still PvP. It’s still intended to be competitive.
What you really want is WvWvW to be just like sPvP, but WvWvW was never meant to be like sPvP, it is meant to be PvEvP where a level 80 is going to have a small advantage over a level 35 because the level 80 had more time, and where people are meant to wear their PvE gear.
None of my arguments have been about what I want. My arguments have all been about supporting the OP because I think his position is worth supporting, and the opposing positions lack merit.
Instead of taking ascended out just because you do not want to spend a little time to get it, how about making a suggestion in the suggestion thread to make another WvWvW mode that uses the sPvP system? Because that is really what you want. You do not want any kind of PvE to effect what you think should be purely PvP, so you need to ask for a purely PvP WvWvW mode, and not ask for a change in a PvEvP mode.
Because eliminating the advantage from ascended gear in the current WvWvW mode is far easier and more realistic, and a perfectly acceptable compromise. Also, the playerbase who still plays WvWvW is already small and shrinking, why on earth would you want to make it worse by fracturing it? I’m quite sure ArenaNet doesn’t.
Talking about the impact of gear in relation to all the other factors that play out is far from being irrelevant. Not taking into consideration all the other elements is intellectually dishonest.
Yes, it is. The existence of other factors in addition to gear that determine the outcome of battles in WvW does not refute any of the positions about Ascended gear, which is what the thread is about. It is a red herring.
but gear stats is probably the least significant factor you can account for in WvW.
It’s also probably the easiest factor to account for.
my point was, theory on paper works because you can control the variables, while theory in practice is difficult because there are many uncontrollable variables.
You can keep focusing on your men of straw and ignore the point of my argument if you prefer.
But that whole argument is a straw man. No one’s been arguing whether or not ascended gear = winning. The argument from the start has always been that it gives an unfair advantage. All those other variables don’t change that one bit. It’s an unfair advantage because it’s an advantage obtained before the competitive match starts, from doing activities that are completely irrelevant to the competitive match. It’s like me getting a few extra pieces in a chess tournament because I downed at least 10 hot dogs in a hot-dog eating contest held by the same people running the chess tournament. No one would play in that chess tournament.
A stun lock makes your damage output 0.
Those higher numerical values are potentially going to make a difference, and the impact of that potential is low compared to the other mechanics at play.
And while you’re stunlocked, the higher defensive stats from better gear means you’ll have more hitpoints left after the stun is over, or at the very least you’ll survive the stunlock longer meaning those players focusing on you are focused on you longer giving your team an advantage somewhere else. You can split hairs however you want; at the end of the day, better stats is better stats, and better stats gives a real advantage.
Yeah, a real, albeit small, advantage.
Still splitting hairs again. That small advantage can turn into a huge advantage if one team all has ascended stats and the other does not.
Which is again what people have been talking about, makes a difference in very specific scenarios, and that scenario you are talking about will only happen if all players on both sides have equal skill, have equal number of people, have equal number of each class, have the same builds and the same exact number of builds, that one side has fully ascended, and one side has fully non ascended, have the same exact lag, all started with full health and none of their skills on cool down, and nobody makes any mistakes, and I am sure there are so many other things that have to line up to make that ascended gear to be a huge advantage. In other words, your scenario is very unlikely. That is why theory crafting in for WvWvW is not valid, it relies on a specific situation to happen, and that situation is very unlikely to happen.
And besides that there is a whole spectrum of how much difference ascended gear can make. Still doesn’t justify giving certain players an arbitrary advantage based on how much time they spent doing some arbitrary activity in the game.
There are too many things to account for in almost every WvW situation to conclude that the difference between victory and defeat solely came down to a gear stat advantage.
Nice straw man.
Of course it is, because he is right, but you have no good counter argument for it. Talking about everything that is possible in WvWvW proves that gear is not a deciding factor that can be proven, and since you have nothing to refute that you would rather just ignore it all together.
You do know what a straw man argument is, right? Because your post here indicates that you clearly do not.
Actually I do, I suspect that it is you that does not.
So then, tell me what the straw man argument was.
“The Straw Man fallacy is committed when a person simply ignores a person’s actual position and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of that position.”
i’m not quite sure that i’m guilty of that
You are.
“There are too many things to account for in almost every WvW situation to conclude that the difference between victory and defeat solely came down to a gear stat advantage”
No one has argued, at any point, that the difference between victory and defeat in WvW came down solely to a gear stat advantage. The argument has always been that it’s an extra advantage that hurts the game, and should be removed.
There are too many things to account for in almost every WvW situation to conclude that the difference between victory and defeat solely came down to a gear stat advantage.
Nice straw man.
Of course it is, because he is right, but you have no good counter argument for it. Talking about everything that is possible in WvWvW proves that gear is not a deciding factor that can be proven, and since you have nothing to refute that you would rather just ignore it all together.
You do know what a straw man argument is, right? Because your post here indicates that you clearly do not.
Actually I do, I suspect that it is you that does not.
So then, tell me what the straw man argument was.
A stun lock makes your damage output 0.
Those higher numerical values are potentially going to make a difference, and the impact of that potential is low compared to the other mechanics at play.
And while you’re stunlocked, the higher defensive stats from better gear means you’ll have more hitpoints left after the stun is over, or at the very least you’ll survive the stunlock longer meaning those players focusing on you are focused on you longer giving your team an advantage somewhere else. You can split hairs however you want; at the end of the day, better stats is better stats, and better stats gives a real advantage.
Yeah, a real, albeit small, advantage.
Still splitting hairs again. That small advantage can turn into a huge advantage if one team all has ascended stats and the other does not.
There are too many things to account for in almost every WvW situation to conclude that the difference between victory and defeat solely came down to a gear stat advantage.
Nice straw man.
Of course it is, because he is right, but you have no good counter argument for it. Talking about everything that is possible in WvWvW proves that gear is not a deciding factor that can be proven, and since you have nothing to refute that you would rather just ignore it all together.
You do know what a straw man argument is, right? Because your post here indicates that you clearly do not.
Translation: You don’t have any hard facts.
Fixed that for you.
And there, in a nutshell, is your entire argument. You don’t want to believe the facts, so you just deny them and claim your anecdotes matter more. People have been posting hard facts for pages. You have nothing to refute them, besides personal anecdotes.
You’re like a little kid putting his fingers in his ears going “LALALALALA I can’t hear you” any time someone posts anything you don’t like.
A stun lock makes your damage output 0.
Those higher numerical values are potentially going to make a difference, and the impact of that potential is low compared to the other mechanics at play.
And while you’re stunlocked, the higher defensive stats from better gear means you’ll have more hitpoints left after the stun is over, or at the very least you’ll survive the stunlock longer meaning those players focusing on you are focused on you longer giving your team an advantage somewhere else. You can split hairs however you want; at the end of the day, better stats is better stats, and better stats gives a real advantage.
There are too many things to account for in almost every WvW situation to conclude that the difference between victory and defeat solely came down to a gear stat advantage.
Nice straw man.
It’s not important they have an advantage, it’s important that the rewards that they earned through playing the game aren’t taken away because someone that wants to be on equal footing without playing the game feels it’s unfair.
I’d be fine with everyone being scaled up to ascended.
So your whole argument has been about splitting hairs this entire time. Why on earth didn’t you just post that at the very start, and save yourself the time and trouble of all your other pointless arguments?
I don’t think any changes should be made in WvW at all, and I dislike the reasons given to justify player’s rewards being taken away.
I argued against the justifications.
And, as I just pointed out, your arguments against the justifications did nothing to refute them. All those arguments you made were pointless. So again, why did you waste your time splitting hairs, instead of just posting the compromise you’d be OK with?
Because their shouldn’t be a compromise. There’s no problem to fix. Just because someone says there’s a problem doesn’t mean there is one.
Of course there should be a compromise. You always have to make compromises in big games to keep people happy. No two players want exactly the same things. Thus, once you have your target market, you make the compromises you need to in order to keep as many of those players as possible. Also, just because someone says there’s not a problem doesn’t mean there isn’t one.
If someone says there’s a problem, they need to provide evidence supporting the claim.
Numbers on paper isn’t evidence.
Lol how old are you? Numbers on paper is exactly what evidence is, cold hard mathematical facts. Your experience on the matter means nothing.
Except your numbers are theory not practice.
That’s not evidence, that’s a hypothesis. My case study (general gameplay) does not support your hypothesis.
Translation: My anecdote trumps your hard facts.
So here’s my “case study” for you. I’ve played PvP in many MMOs in many formats. Gear disparities of even just 10% make a real impact in all cases. My case study does not support your hypothesis.
It’s not important they have an advantage, it’s important that the rewards that they earned through playing the game aren’t taken away because someone that wants to be on equal footing without playing the game feels it’s unfair.
I’d be fine with everyone being scaled up to ascended.
So your whole argument has been about splitting hairs this entire time. Why on earth didn’t you just post that at the very start, and save yourself the time and trouble of all your other pointless arguments?
I don’t think any changes should be made in WvW at all, and I dislike the reasons given to justify player’s rewards being taken away.
I argued against the justifications.
And, as I just pointed out, your arguments against the justifications did nothing to refute them. All those arguments you made were pointless. So again, why did you waste your time splitting hairs, instead of just posting the compromise you’d be OK with?
Because their shouldn’t be a compromise. There’s no problem to fix. Just because someone says there’s a problem doesn’t mean there is one.
Of course there should be a compromise. You always have to make compromises in big games to keep people happy. No two players want exactly the same things. Thus, once you have your target market, you make the compromises you need to in order to keep as many of those players as possible. Also, just because someone says there’s not a problem doesn’t mean there isn’t one.
If someone says there’s a problem, they need to provide evidence supporting the claim.
Numbers on paper isn’t evidence.
I’m pretty sure people leaving and taking their $$$ with them is the only evidence ArenaNet really cares about.
I’m not convinced that’s happening either. Way to deflect the argument.
Of course not. You’re not convinced of anything you don’t want to be. Thankfully, whether or not you’re convinced means absolutely nothing in this situation.
It’s not important they have an advantage, it’s important that the rewards that they earned through playing the game aren’t taken away because someone that wants to be on equal footing without playing the game feels it’s unfair.
I’d be fine with everyone being scaled up to ascended.
So your whole argument has been about splitting hairs this entire time. Why on earth didn’t you just post that at the very start, and save yourself the time and trouble of all your other pointless arguments?
I don’t think any changes should be made in WvW at all, and I dislike the reasons given to justify player’s rewards being taken away.
I argued against the justifications.
And, as I just pointed out, your arguments against the justifications did nothing to refute them. All those arguments you made were pointless. So again, why did you waste your time splitting hairs, instead of just posting the compromise you’d be OK with?
Because their shouldn’t be a compromise. There’s no problem to fix. Just because someone says there’s a problem doesn’t mean there is one.
Of course there should be a compromise. You always have to make compromises in big games to keep people happy. No two players want exactly the same things. Thus, once you have your target market, you make the compromises you need to in order to keep as many of those players as possible. Also, just because someone says there’s not a problem doesn’t mean there isn’t one.
If someone says there’s a problem, they need to provide evidence supporting the claim.
Numbers on paper isn’t evidence.
I’m pretty sure people leaving and taking their $$$ with them is the only evidence ArenaNet really cares about.
It’s not important they have an advantage, it’s important that the rewards that they earned through playing the game aren’t taken away because someone that wants to be on equal footing without playing the game feels it’s unfair.
I’d be fine with everyone being scaled up to ascended.
So your whole argument has been about splitting hairs this entire time. Why on earth didn’t you just post that at the very start, and save yourself the time and trouble of all your other pointless arguments?
I don’t think any changes should be made in WvW at all, and I dislike the reasons given to justify player’s rewards being taken away.
I argued against the justifications.
And, as I just pointed out, your arguments against the justifications did nothing to refute them. All those arguments you made were pointless. So again, why did you waste your time splitting hairs, instead of just posting the compromise you’d be OK with?
Because their shouldn’t be a compromise. There’s no problem to fix. Just because someone says there’s a problem doesn’t mean there is one.
Of course there should be a compromise. You always have to make compromises in big games to keep people happy. No two players want exactly the same things. Thus, once you have your target market, you make the compromises you need to in order to keep as many of those players as possible. Also, just because someone says there’s not a problem doesn’t mean there isn’t one.
A) I’ve seen far more people coming in than going out. I could be wrong, but you could be too. There aren’t any official numbers, and so this really boils down to a “He said, she said” argument.
You’re the only person who’s said that in quite some time. Many people are pointing out that they see lots of people leaving. Yeah, you’re most likely wrong.
B) GW2 was never stated to be anything like GW1.
What are you, on their legal team? This isn’t a trial, you know. Yes, they most certainly advertised the game before release as being “A lot like GW, only better!!” Again, they had to, to keep the GW1 fanbase around.
C) The “ruining the game” quip wasn’t about complaining threads. It was about how everyone seems to have an idea about how GW2 is so awful, and could be better by making it like GW1 or WoW or another popular game. Some people think living story should be scrapped, and expansions made instead. Some people think that since everyone’s running zerker, the best way to increase diversity is to put a dedicated tank and healer back into the game. I won’t get all melodramatic and say that I’d quit if those happened, but I would definitely end up playing a good bit less.
And most of those posts from many different people say exactly the same things. Sure, there’s a few outliers that are different, but you’re always going to have those, even in a game that is successful beyond belief.
The two main complains are:
A. People don’t want a gear treadmill
B. People don’t want the meaningless garbage content every 2 weeks; where’s the type of 6-month and 1-year content updates that GW1 had?
Most of the complaints are simply subsets of those. Not all, no, but most.
It’s not important they have an advantage, it’s important that the rewards that they earned through playing the game aren’t taken away because someone that wants to be on equal footing without playing the game feels it’s unfair.
I’d be fine with everyone being scaled up to ascended.
So your whole argument has been about splitting hairs this entire time. Why on earth didn’t you just post that at the very start, and save yourself the time and trouble of all your other pointless arguments?
I don’t think any changes should be made in WvW at all, and I dislike the reasons given to justify player’s rewards being taken away.
I argued against the justifications.
And, as I just pointed out, your arguments against the justifications did nothing to refute them. All those arguments you made were pointless. So again, why did you waste your time splitting hairs, instead of just posting the compromise you’d be OK with?
IF you are trying to compete on a personal level in PvEvP (WvWvW) then you have completely missed the point of WvWvW, and you would be better off playing sPvP.
Which has squat all to do with gear advantages. I, for one, would much rather be on the team that has all ascended gear facing the team that’s just equipped with exotics across the board. Sure, it’s not a guaranteed win, but I’d much rather have the advantage than not have it.
And again, the point remains: if gear makes so little difference, why not just put everyone’s stats at the same level, making it more fun for everyone?
It’s not important they have an advantage, it’s important that the rewards that they earned through playing the game aren’t taken away because someone that wants to be on equal footing without playing the game feels it’s unfair.
I’d be fine with everyone being scaled up to ascended.
So your whole argument has been about splitting hairs this entire time. Why on earth didn’t you just post that at the very start, and save yourself the time and trouble of all your other pointless arguments?
Where are you getting your numbers? Last I checked, GW2 subs were growing, not shrinking.
I’m getting my numbers from the same place everyone’s getting their numbers when they talk about the shrinking playerbase (which is also the only place to get the numbers): from players in-game. Individually, these are just anecdotes. Collectively, they paint the picture of what is happening in GW2. Players are leaving. Also, GW2 does not have subs. There is no such thing as an “inactive” GW2 account, except perhaps one that’s banned. So yes, account numbers are going to keep increasing for some time, unless they shut it down. Meanwhile, many more players are quitting than new ones are joining, thus overall GW2 is losing large amounts of players.
GW2 is the first MMO to get me to spend hours on end playing it. WoW engaged me until I got to level 60ish, at which point I more or less ran dungeons til max level then scrapped that character and restarted anew. GW1 has gotten a total of maybe 40 hours of my time. Different people have different interests, it appears.
Thank you, Captain Obvious. Yes, people have different interests. Most of the people that were supposed to be interested in GW2 no longer are. GW2 is losing lots of players, and thus its revenue stream. This matters to ArenaNet, even though it means nothing to you. These posts are about why this is happening, which ArenaNet cares about if they care about making money.
If you prefer GW1, great for you. Go play it. Please don’t ruin the game I enjoy, because you don’t like it too.
I already posted why I’m not playing GW1. And if seeing posts pointing out the flaws in a game ruins it for you, WHY ON EARTH ARE YOU READING THESE THREADS? Why are you even on the forums at all? Why are you not actually playing the game? No one is making you do any of this.
(edited by DocHolliday.5921)
That logic is flawed.
So let’s take 2 of the best spvp players in this game ever, top guilds etc.
They duel each other and the one who loses is now terrible at this game ?! That makes 0 sense, in a duel/1v1 there will always be a victor and a loser, doesn’t mean the loser is terrible just because he was outmatched!
By the way guys, there’s a similar thread in the WvWvW forums if you want to check that out as well.
I’m pretty sure that in a fight between equally skilled opponents, the one that makes a mistake first loses.
I mean, equally skilled opponents mean that one sides wins 50% of the time.
Sure, if they have equal equipment. It’s not that hard to not make mistakes though, especially if it’s one vs one, which means the player with the better equipment will always win.
Bottom line, you’re basing your entire argument off the assumption that the player with ascended gear will make a mistake the other player can exploit, BEFORE the player in the worse gear makes a mistake, or that he will make more mistakes than the player with worse gear. In fact, you’re not actually arguing equal skill at all. In your scenario, the player in the worse gear has better skill. That’s such an unbelievably bad argument to make in defense of gear upgrades.
I’m making the argument that the better class/build/player will change the outcome before gear came into play, a concept that no one seems to grasp.
Ok, so now you’re changing your argument. You’re really desperate, aren’t you? Guess what. That still doesn’t change the opposing argument, which is and always has been:
“So again, how exactly is that a reason to put in ascended gear? If it doesn’t make any difference, why not just leave it out? "
I haven’t changed my argument. Again, read the thread.
Ascended gear is already in, that’s the reason not to remove it.
I know this might be hard for you to swallow, but WvW lets you use the PvE gear you’ve earned on your character rather than normalizing it like sPvP.
This is because WvW isn’t a level playing field, never has been. Upscaled players are disadvantaged; should we scale everyone in the game down to a upscale 80 in rares so you can be secure that gear isn’t the reason you’re losing/winning?
Hell, let’s keep going. Let’s make everyone the same class too, since those vary drastically in strength, and we don’t want that kind of imbalance in a mode that’s supposed to be competitive. /rolleyes
No, sorry, I’m not going to go back and re-read the thread. It’s not necessary. Clearly someone made an argument that changed your original argument to what it was when I first started in the discussion. And yes, you do keep changing your argument when you respond to me. At this point you’ve made three completely different arguments, none of which does anything to refute the argument made by the OP.
Here’s your three arguments you made in the short discussion with me:
1. A better skilled player can overcome the gear advantage
2. A more powerful class can overcome the gear advantage
3. It’s already there, so that justifies giving players a gear advantage just because they’ve spent two months getting it
So again, if it doesn’t matter, why not just cap stats at a lower level? Or why not just raise everyone’s stats to ascended level? It’s not a difficult thing to do. You don’t even have to actually remove ascended gear to accomplish what the OP wants. Why is it so important that certain players get an arbitrary advantage (however small) simply because they happen to have spent more hours doing some arbitrary gameplay?
What a lovely personal anecdote. I have many of those too. I’ve had many times where I’ve won fights with only about 10 HP remaining, sometimes even less. One of my guildies has a Thief who has stomped and escaped that stomp with a big, fat 1 displayed on his health bar. That’s even less than 5% of his total health – while wearing Soldier’s Ascended trinkets. If he had been wearing all exotics – he would have lost. Those are the fights he remembers most, the ones he brags about, and the ones he considers most important.
And if he was wearing all rares, and the other was wearing all exotic, he would have lost, and if he was wearing Masterwork, and the other was wearing Exotic he would have lost. If he was level 60 and other other was level 80 he would have lost.
So I don’t see your point.
The two points are thus.
A. All those other advantages you talk about, those are much easier to eliminate. It’s trivially easy to get to level 80 and get rare gear, and almost trivially easy to get exotic gear. Anyone can do it in a matter of days/weeks. Ascended gear is a whole other league of time investment.
B. Why add one more disparity for players to overcome in a game mode that’s supposed to be about competition? There is literally no reason to have ascended stats in WvW.
What you say is easy for you can be hard for someone else and take much more time than you. Apparently ascended is hard for you to get, but there are people where getting exotic is hard to get. What you think is hard and easy to get is no more important than what another person thinks is hard or easy to get. The time frame to get X gear is a moot point when in WvW it very rarely matters if you have ascended gear or not.
EXACTLY. So why make it worse, and put in ascended yet on top of exotic? Personally, I think they should just limit stats in any form of PvP to blue quality, or some specific stat level that all gear in PvP has. Make it about skill, and leave gear out of the equation entirely. That’s how they did it in GW1, and guess what: it worked. That said, the point was that at least the level advantage and rare/exotic gear are somewhat excusable because they don’t require insane amounts of time to accomplish.
The point of WvW is that it is not considered as PvP, it is considered as PvEvP, notice how none of the PvP daily involve WvW. The point of WvWvW is for people who want something resembling open world PvP where people are wearing their PvE gear. If you want competition you play sPvP, WvWvW isn’t really about competition between Player Vs Player, but more about competition with Server Vs Server.
And ascended doesn’t take insane amount of time. A friend of mine who got to level 80 about 6 weeks ago and plays about 15 hours per week, already has all the ascended gear accept for weapons, in which he is looking about 3 more weeks and he’ll have those finished. 2 Months is not insane amount of time
For this game, it absolutely is. This is the successor to Guild Wars. A game where you could get gear with best possible stats for the equivalent of about 5 gold in GW2. A game where gear was supposed to be a non-issue. And you know what they told us about GW2 before release? That it would be exactly the same in that regard: gear would be a non-issue; there would be no gear treadmill and there would be no gear disparity in PvP. Well, guess where we’re at now. Not at all where the game was supposed to be in regards to gear. And people are complaining about it. What a surprise!
And there is not gear disparity in PvP, cause WvWvW is considered as PvEvP, in PvP everyone has the same level of gear. Also, Anet never said it would be exactly the same as GW1 when it came to gear, people made assumptions it would or took quotes out of context to say it was, but Anet never said it would be.
No, they never said it would be exactly the same, and no one expected it to be. They very much marketed the game on the premise that there would be no gear grind to worry about, and that gear would be a non-issue. They had to, because they knew they’d lose the majority of their GW1 fanbase if they didn’t. Well guess what: they did a complete 180 on that, and now they HAVE lost the majority of their GW1 fanbase.
Because there is no reason to, and it defeats the purpose of WvWvW, which is open world PvEvP, which is meant to use PvE gear.
No it’s not. GW2 was never supposed to be about gear, other than cosmetically.
And to use your suggestion, why stop at exotic, why not scale down to Fine gear?
Um yeah, I JUST POSTED that. I’d be in favor of GW2 NEVER having gone beyond fine gear stats, anywhere.
What a lovely personal anecdote. I have many of those too. I’ve had many times where I’ve won fights with only about 10 HP remaining, sometimes even less. One of my guildies has a Thief who has stomped and escaped that stomp with a big, fat 1 displayed on his health bar. That’s even less than 5% of his total health – while wearing Soldier’s Ascended trinkets. If he had been wearing all exotics – he would have lost. Those are the fights he remembers most, the ones he brags about, and the ones he considers most important.
And if he was wearing all rares, and the other was wearing all exotic, he would have lost, and if he was wearing Masterwork, and the other was wearing Exotic he would have lost. If he was level 60 and other other was level 80 he would have lost.
So I don’t see your point.
The two points are thus.
A. All those other advantages you talk about, those are much easier to eliminate. It’s trivially easy to get to level 80 and get rare gear, and almost trivially easy to get exotic gear. Anyone can do it in a matter of days/weeks. Ascended gear is a whole other league of time investment.
B. Why add one more disparity for players to overcome in a game mode that’s supposed to be about competition? There is literally no reason to have ascended stats in WvW.
What you say is easy for you can be hard for someone else and take much more time than you. Apparently ascended is hard for you to get, but there are people where getting exotic is hard to get. What you think is hard and easy to get is no more important than what another person thinks is hard or easy to get. The time frame to get X gear is a moot point when in WvW it very rarely matters if you have ascended gear or not.
EXACTLY. So why make it worse, and put in ascended yet on top of exotic? Personally, I think they should just limit stats in any form of PvP to blue quality, or some specific stat level that all gear in PvP has. Make it about skill, and leave gear out of the equation entirely. That’s how they did it in GW1, and guess what: it worked. That said, the point was that at least the level advantage and rare/exotic gear are somewhat excusable because they don’t require insane amounts of time to accomplish.
The point of WvW is that it is not considered as PvP, it is considered as PvEvP, notice how none of the PvP daily involve WvW. The point of WvWvW is for people who want something resembling open world PvP where people are wearing their PvE gear. If you want competition you play sPvP, WvWvW isn’t really about competition between Player Vs Player, but more about competition with Server Vs Server.
And ascended doesn’t take insane amount of time. A friend of mine who got to level 80 about 6 weeks ago and plays about 15 hours per week, already has all the ascended gear accept for weapons, in which he is looking about 3 more weeks and he’ll have those finished. 2 Months is not insane amount of time
For this game, it absolutely is. This is the successor to Guild Wars. A game where you could get gear with best possible stats for the equivalent of about 5 gold in GW2. A game where gear was supposed to be a non-issue. And you know what they told us about GW2 before release? That it would be exactly the same in that regard: gear would be a non-issue; there would be no gear treadmill and there would be no gear disparity in PvP. Well, guess where we’re at now. Not at all where the game was supposed to be in regards to gear. And people are complaining about it. What a surprise!
That logic is flawed.
So let’s take 2 of the best spvp players in this game ever, top guilds etc.
They duel each other and the one who loses is now terrible at this game ?! That makes 0 sense, in a duel/1v1 there will always be a victor and a loser, doesn’t mean the loser is terrible just because he was outmatched!
By the way guys, there’s a similar thread in the WvWvW forums if you want to check that out as well.
I’m pretty sure that in a fight between equally skilled opponents, the one that makes a mistake first loses.
I mean, equally skilled opponents mean that one sides wins 50% of the time.
Sure, if they have equal equipment. It’s not that hard to not make mistakes though, especially if it’s one vs one, which means the player with the better equipment will always win.
Bottom line, you’re basing your entire argument off the assumption that the player with ascended gear will make a mistake the other player can exploit, BEFORE the player in the worse gear makes a mistake, or that he will make more mistakes than the player with worse gear. In fact, you’re not actually arguing equal skill at all. In your scenario, the player in the worse gear has better skill. That’s such an unbelievably bad argument to make in defense of gear upgrades.
I’m making the argument that the better class/build/player will change the outcome before gear came into play, a concept that no one seems to grasp.
Ok, so now you’re changing your argument. You’re really desperate, aren’t you? Guess what. That still doesn’t change the opposing argument, which is and always has been:
“So again, how exactly is that a reason to put in ascended gear? If it doesn’t make any difference, why not just leave it out? "
That logic is flawed.
So let’s take 2 of the best spvp players in this game ever, top guilds etc.
They duel each other and the one who loses is now terrible at this game ?! That makes 0 sense, in a duel/1v1 there will always be a victor and a loser, doesn’t mean the loser is terrible just because he was outmatched!
By the way guys, there’s a similar thread in the WvWvW forums if you want to check that out as well.
I’m pretty sure that in a fight between equally skilled opponents, the one that makes a mistake first loses.
I mean, equally skilled opponents mean that one sides wins 50% of the time.
Sure, if they have equal equipment. It’s not that hard to not make mistakes though, especially if it’s one vs one, which means the player with the better equipment will always win.
Bottom line, you’re basing your entire argument off the assumption that the player with ascended gear will make a mistake the other player can exploit, BEFORE the player in the worse gear makes a mistake, or that he will make more mistakes than the player with worse gear. In fact, you’re not actually arguing equal skill at all. In your scenario, the player in the worse gear has better skill. That’s such an unbelievably bad argument to make in defense of gear upgrades.
It is also an unbelievably bad argument to say that ascended gear actually makes any difference in WvW given the very nature of WvW. Those scenarios where Gear will win are going to be very very rare, so many other things have to line up for gear to actually being the deciding factor.
So again, how exactly is that a reason to put in ascended gear? If it doesn’t make any difference, why not just leave it out? Why not just cap the stats at some other level, just to make sure it doesn’t make a difference? If they can properly uplevel a 30 to 80, surely they can find a way to downgrade the stats on Ascended gear to Exotic level?
What a lovely personal anecdote. I have many of those too. I’ve had many times where I’ve won fights with only about 10 HP remaining, sometimes even less. One of my guildies has a Thief who has stomped and escaped that stomp with a big, fat 1 displayed on his health bar. That’s even less than 5% of his total health – while wearing Soldier’s Ascended trinkets. If he had been wearing all exotics – he would have lost. Those are the fights he remembers most, the ones he brags about, and the ones he considers most important.
And if he was wearing all rares, and the other was wearing all exotic, he would have lost, and if he was wearing Masterwork, and the other was wearing Exotic he would have lost. If he was level 60 and other other was level 80 he would have lost.
So I don’t see your point.
The two points are thus.
A. All those other advantages you talk about, those are much easier to eliminate. It’s trivially easy to get to level 80 and get rare gear, and almost trivially easy to get exotic gear. Anyone can do it in a matter of days/weeks. Ascended gear is a whole other league of time investment.
B. Why add one more disparity for players to overcome in a game mode that’s supposed to be about competition? There is literally no reason to have ascended stats in WvW.
What you say is easy for you can be hard for someone else and take much more time than you. Apparently ascended is hard for you to get, but there are people where getting exotic is hard to get. What you think is hard and easy to get is no more important than what another person thinks is hard or easy to get. The time frame to get X gear is a moot point when in WvW it very rarely matters if you have ascended gear or not.
EXACTLY. So why make it worse, and put in ascended yet on top of exotic? Personally, I think they should just limit stats in any form of PvP to blue quality, or some specific stat level that all gear in PvP has. Make it about skill, and leave gear out of the equation entirely. That’s how they did it in GW1, and guess what: it worked. That said, the point was that at least the level advantage and rare/exotic gear are somewhat excusable because they don’t require insane amounts of time to accomplish.
What is the point again?
That you can’t be troubled to Defend the Pact Interrupter or Defeat the High Priestess of Lyssa, or Destroy the Risen Statue of Dwayna once per day?
Right now, the point is that you should stop trolling.
That logic is flawed.
So let’s take 2 of the best spvp players in this game ever, top guilds etc.
They duel each other and the one who loses is now terrible at this game ?! That makes 0 sense, in a duel/1v1 there will always be a victor and a loser, doesn’t mean the loser is terrible just because he was outmatched!
By the way guys, there’s a similar thread in the WvWvW forums if you want to check that out as well.
I’m pretty sure that in a fight between equally skilled opponents, the one that makes a mistake first loses.
I mean, equally skilled opponents mean that one sides wins 50% of the time.
Sure, if they have equal equipment. It’s not that hard to not make mistakes though, especially if it’s one vs one, which means the player with the better equipment will always win.
Bottom line, you’re basing your entire argument off the assumption that the player with ascended gear will make a mistake the other player can exploit, BEFORE the player in the worse gear makes a mistake, or that he will make more mistakes than the player with worse gear. In fact, you’re not actually arguing equal skill at all. In your scenario, the player in the worse gear has better skill. That’s such an unbelievably bad argument to make in defense of gear upgrades.
What a lovely personal anecdote. I have many of those too. I’ve had many times where I’ve won fights with only about 10 HP remaining, sometimes even less. One of my guildies has a Thief who has stomped and escaped that stomp with a big, fat 1 displayed on his health bar. That’s even less than 5% of his total health – while wearing Soldier’s Ascended trinkets. If he had been wearing all exotics – he would have lost. Those are the fights he remembers most, the ones he brags about, and the ones he considers most important.
And if he was wearing all rares, and the other was wearing all exotic, he would have lost, and if he was wearing Masterwork, and the other was wearing Exotic he would have lost. If he was level 60 and other other was level 80 he would have lost.
So I don’t see your point.
The two points are thus.
A. All those other advantages you talk about, those are much easier to eliminate. It’s trivially easy to get to level 80 and get rare gear, and almost trivially easy to get exotic gear. Anyone can do it in a matter of days/weeks. Ascended gear is a whole other league of time investment.
B. Why add one more disparity for players to overcome in a game mode that’s supposed to be about competition? There is literally no reason to have ascended stats in WvW.
Competition between servers, not players individually. WvW isn’t competitive on the small scale, quite the opposite. It’s brutally unfair.
And that changes not a kitten thing. The point stands.
There’s literally no reason to make changes to WvW because there’s another rarity beyond exotic.
I can play that game too.
It’s not a game. I’m making salient points; you’re spouting nonsense that has absolutely nothing to do with the discussion at hand. Why are you posting if you have nothing to contribute? Are you just that paranoid about losing your ascended gear advantage in WvWvW?
Read the thread. I don’t have ascended gear, or even full exotics.
So why are you so desperate to defend those who do, to the point that you’ll post completely irrelevant nonsense and BS? Are you just trolling?
What a lovely personal anecdote. I have many of those too. I’ve had many times where I’ve won fights with only about 10 HP remaining, sometimes even less. One of my guildies has a Thief who has stomped and escaped that stomp with a big, fat 1 displayed on his health bar. That’s even less than 5% of his total health – while wearing Soldier’s Ascended trinkets. If he had been wearing all exotics – he would have lost. Those are the fights he remembers most, the ones he brags about, and the ones he considers most important.
And if he was wearing all rares, and the other was wearing all exotic, he would have lost, and if he was wearing Masterwork, and the other was wearing Exotic he would have lost. If he was level 60 and other other was level 80 he would have lost.
So I don’t see your point.
The two points are thus.
A. All those other advantages you talk about, those are much easier to eliminate. It’s trivially easy to get to level 80 and get rare gear, and almost trivially easy to get exotic gear. Anyone can do it in a matter of days/weeks. Ascended gear is a whole other league of time investment.
B. Why add one more disparity for players to overcome in a game mode that’s supposed to be about competition? There is literally no reason to have ascended stats in WvW.
Competition between servers, not players individually. WvW isn’t competitive on the small scale, quite the opposite. It’s brutally unfair.
And that changes not a kitten thing. The point stands.
There’s literally no reason to make changes to WvW because there’s another rarity beyond exotic.
I can play that game too.
It’s not a game. I’m making salient points; you’re spouting nonsense that has absolutely nothing to do with the discussion at hand. Why are you posting if you have nothing to contribute? Are you just that paranoid about losing your ascended gear advantage in WvWvW?
And yet somehow, GW kept me interested for well over two thousand hours. GW2 bored me to the quitting point well under three hundred. The only reason I didn’t go back to GW1 from GW2 was because my account got hacked years ago and I lost everything.
Different people like different things so far I already spent over 1100 hrs in gw2 and its still keeping me interested. Thats about the same amount of time I played gw1 I think actually.
Good for you. You found your niche. The handful of players like yourself though, clearly aren’t making up for the players they are losing who don’t like GW2. There’s a lot of people saying the same things I am, and many more who aren’t only because they already quit and don’t care at all any more.
Oh yeah, and get back to me once you’ve spent another 1100 hours in GW2. Then we’ll have an actual idea how well it’s holding up for you compared to how well GW1 held up for me.
What a lovely personal anecdote. I have many of those too. I’ve had many times where I’ve won fights with only about 10 HP remaining, sometimes even less. One of my guildies has a Thief who has stomped and escaped that stomp with a big, fat 1 displayed on his health bar. That’s even less than 5% of his total health – while wearing Soldier’s Ascended trinkets. If he had been wearing all exotics – he would have lost. Those are the fights he remembers most, the ones he brags about, and the ones he considers most important.
And if he was wearing all rares, and the other was wearing all exotic, he would have lost, and if he was wearing Masterwork, and the other was wearing Exotic he would have lost. If he was level 60 and other other was level 80 he would have lost.
So I don’t see your point.
The two points are thus.
A. All those other advantages you talk about, those are much easier to eliminate. It’s trivially easy to get to level 80 and get rare gear, and almost trivially easy to get exotic gear. Anyone can do it in a matter of days/weeks. Ascended gear is a whole other league of time investment.
B. Why add one more disparity for players to overcome in a game mode that’s supposed to be about competition? There is literally no reason to have ascended stats in WvW.
Competition between servers, not players individually. WvW isn’t competitive on the small scale, quite the opposite. It’s brutally unfair.
And that changes not a kitten thing. The point stands.
If you lose any fight, ever YOU are terrible at this game.
Yeah, here’s what you really MEANT to say though, right?
But nevermind that. Let’s roll with your assumption you made in what you actually posted. Of course, if we do that, we ALSO have to assume that gear in general doesn’t matter. You can’t say the upgrade from any gear level to any other gear level matters if the upgrade from exotic to ascended doesn’t matter.
So if you really want to put your money where your mouth is, spend the next month doing all your PvP using nothing but a white-quality weapon appropriate for your level. And if, during that time, you lose any fight ever, you are just as terrible at this game as anyone suggesting ascended gear needs to be removed from WvWvW.
What a lovely personal anecdote. I have many of those too. I’ve had many times where I’ve won fights with only about 10 HP remaining, sometimes even less. One of my guildies has a Thief who has stomped and escaped that stomp with a big, fat 1 displayed on his health bar. That’s even less than 5% of his total health – while wearing Soldier’s Ascended trinkets. If he had been wearing all exotics – he would have lost. Those are the fights he remembers most, the ones he brags about, and the ones he considers most important.
And if he was wearing all rares, and the other was wearing all exotic, he would have lost, and if he was wearing Masterwork, and the other was wearing Exotic he would have lost. If he was level 60 and other other was level 80 he would have lost.
So I don’t see your point.
The two points are thus.
A. All those other advantages you talk about, those are much easier to eliminate. It’s trivially easy to get to level 80 and get rare gear, and almost trivially easy to get exotic gear. Anyone can do it in a matter of days/weeks. Ascended gear is a whole other league of time investment.
B. Why add one more disparity for players to overcome in a game mode that’s supposed to be about competition? There is literally no reason to have ascended stats in WvW.
Yeah but the expansions gave 6 months of content. It’s been a year of GW2, there is no permanent content left to do, with no rewards worth getting.
The LS gives us 1 day of content every 14 days.
Some people in my GW Alliance completed Factions in 6 days, and Eye of the North in 2. The only reason players don’t finish expansions in other games quickly is time-gating, as with limiting raid participation to 1/week.
No they didn’t. Playing through the main story line is not at all the same thing as finishing it. If we use your definition of “finishing it” then someone finished GW2 before it was even released.
Greedy? Christ. Where did this movement of accepting everything a company does come from. I swear it wasnt like this 15 years ago.
You want the truth? Games been out for an entire year. lets compare the god kitten score for a second.
Guild wars:
1 yearFree content:
Sorrows furnace – Entire new rarity of items, large amount of bosses from every profession, bunch of new quests, and one hell of a crazy bossfight (forgeman)Expansion content:
2 new professions
1 new weapon type
something like 200 new skills, 90 of which were elites
13 new story missions, 5 new other missions (elite/challenge)
3 new types of pvp
2 new faction types (which meant a way for guilds to own towns, also a new thing)
something like 70 new zones filled with completely new monsters we’d never seen before using new skills we’d never seen before
More weapon skins than you could shake a stick at.guild wars 2
Permanent content:
1 new dungeon path that removed an older path
1 boss has been revamped
new weapon skins that require gems
1 new zone
Fractals
1 new rarity
4 “activities”Removed content:
a bunch of quest chains
a dungeon (molten factory)
a couple mission type instancesFactions added far more content than we’ve gotten so far, in the same timespan, and it STUCK AROUND. it wasnt removed a month later.
We havent become greedy at all. Our standards are the exact same. It’s Anet itself who has changed the amount of content that they produce.
Yep, let’s compare. The content total of Guild Wars: Prophecies and Factions together, is not as much content as Guild Wars 2 AT LAUNCH.
Maybe you don’t realize it, but I sure do. Prophecies had under 300 quests and 25 missions, a couple of elite areas. It’s lovely they added stuff to that game, because it needed.
People finished Factions in a week. A WEEK!. It only had 13 missions.
Maybe your concept of content is different from mine, but this game has far FAR more content than Guild Wars 1 had even after the release of Nightfall.
And yet somehow, GW kept me interested for well over two thousand hours. GW2 bored me to the quitting point well under three hundred. The only reason I didn’t go back to GW1 from GW2 was because my account got hacked years ago and I lost everything.
It doesnt have to be this way, what if we could choose a “tank” to make our live easier and take a “healer/support” with us but it would take 40% (2 of 5 dealing less damage) longer than running full DPS but it would be easier.
On the other hand, running full DPS (glasscannon) should be more risky than other setups, but with the reward of being faster (5 of 5 dealing full damage).This… is what the game already is, minus the “tank” because there is no aggro control skills.
Well… as I said, its not, running full glascannon is the most effective way, but it is not more risky (in most cases) than running with tankier setups or a support, due to the dodges/blocks and slow attacking enemies.
Right. And the only way to translate PvP to PvE is to make PvE work exactly like PvP. Every fight would have to be lots of small enemies with AI that plays exactly like players, and all the rest of the stuff that goes with PvP. If you want to give players an actual boss fight, all that goes out the window, and without the trinity, the inevitable result is exactly what we have now.
You don’t have to get rid of the trinity to deal with the issue. You just need to make it fun to play, which is quite possible. I know many players thoroughly enjoyed playing a monk in GW1. I rather liked it myself.
As a Pve ’er my main problem with the game is how broken Risk vs. Reward is. The fact that you make equal if not more money running in a champ train over running the most difficult content (arah/48+ fractals) blows my mind.
We need INSTANCED elite content as well. PvE is way to easy right now.
Risk/Reward is messed up everywhere in the game.
Pvp balance especially.
My biggest grievance with the game is the lack of skills/build variety and just…. “FUN”.
Still over a year in and still no new traits/skills, and on top of that, skill/traits that have been garbage since beta… are still garbage… Over a year in.. Cmon now.
I still can’t see how people think this is better than GW1 was, at any point from launch.
It depends on what you play for. Guild Wars 1 had great skills and great builds, but not everyone liked that aspect of the game. Guild Wars 1 was completely “pathed”. It was hard to go off road. If you ran into a log, you had to turn around and go back. Not all people liked that aspect of the game.
But mostly Guild Wars 1 was instanced. There was no chance of running into a random stranger out in the open world and a lot of people, myself included, simply prefer a persistent world.
Maybe I don’t want to start over in a zone if I want someone to join me.
Yes, so the only actual improvement in GW2 is the persistent world, and even that is still somewhat instanced as you can only get from one zone to another through portals. (See WoW for how to do it right.) The only other advantage I can think of for GW2 is the AH – and that’s also not nearly as good as in many other MMOs. Everything else in GW2 is worse or at least no better than GW1. That’s just… sad.
Did you miss some exotic gear for your exotic dummy? Because I get 104% crit damage not 86% crit damage.
edit: In fact you must of missed something since even without food buffs, bloodlust or might, with d/p I get 2239 base power for exotic zerk/zerk orb/ruby dummy not the 2089 you list.
Check your trinkets and rings and such for the extra jewel. The calculation I used were for the base item only. …
Isnt that cheating though? There is no reason why anyone wouldnt use a jewel with their trinkets. That changes things quite a bit. by adding jewels power goes up to 2239.
Ergo going with basic damage no buffs etc…
(981×2239×2.4) / 1836 = 2871 vs 3108 which means increase in damage is actually 8%
going with the max damage, food buffs, critical whatevers
(981x 3306×2.4) / 1836 = 4239
4239 × 257% = 10,894 vs 11909 = 8.6%
none of it is close to the 24% you calculated.
If you have a good reason why you think adding jewerly to the trinkets in exotics is not fair feel free to share but personally I think they should be there considering those stats are build in ascended gear anyway.
I’m guessing what he means is, he did the calculations for both sets of gear without jewels. If you add them in on the exotic, you then also add them in on the ascended, and nothing really changes.
I’d go with just the first 2 words.
That would work, but I doubt it’ll happen. What they could do is make ascended gear as easy to get as exotic. You know, like top-stat gear was in GW1.