Guild Wars 2

My suggestion is to make Mantras start recharging when the first charge is used while in combat. This fixes the issue of Mesmers have too much “first strike” when going into a fight while still allowing you to use charges tactically without feeling as if you’re wasting CD by not discharging it completely ASAP.

Again do we actually know this isn’t intended? We’ve been talking about it in these forums for a bit so (assuming they read the forums) they should be aware of this. And really, +15% to Ether Bolt’s attack speed is really crappy for a GM trait.

We’ve speculated if this is how it was meant to work before it was fixed. It could be intentional, but given what happened to Mantras I suspect not. But if it’s only meant to affect attack speed then it really isn’t worthy of GM.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying Mantra of Recovery is too strong: as you say if you trait for it it better be the best option. I didn’t suggest any nerfs for MoR’s healing. All I’m saying is that claiming Mender’s Purity is the only reason to take MoR over other heals is simply not true, as that stream showed quite clearly that traited MoR is very much worth it even if MP is not a factor.

That said, the nerf to Mantras in general last patch has made all of this moot. If it stays then I no longer think MP needs any nerfs. On the other hand, I think Mantras now need a buff…

I totally called the Mirror Blade nerf, though many other Mesmers disagreed.

The change to Mantras is disappointing. I did think it was over the top but I preferred to see Mantras start CDing after the first charge is expended while in combat. Going back to only CDing after the last charge encourages people to blow all their charges after the first to avoid wasting CD, especially for MoRec where the low down time between heals is a major factor in choosing it over the alternatives.

I was hoping they’d make Mantras start recharging after the first charge is expended in combat, instead they reverted it completely and said it’s a bug. Oh wells…

And so we’re back to the point where it’s better to blow all your charges as soon as the first charge is used to avoid wasting CD, especially for Recovery.

A Druid, hands down.

@Photoloss: I made another suggestion for Temporal Curtain which I’m fairly certain Anet can do. The only problem I see with it is that enemies can’t remove the buff, hence why I made it only apply Swiftness every 5 seconds.

apharma.3741:

Embolism.8106:

That’s me. I misremembered sorry, and I used to use MoR with Mender’s… that said with the way Mantras used to work it was much, much less effective, you generally wanted to blow all your casts once you started to avoid wasting CD; so it’s not that comparable to the current situation. Plus it used to be a major trait IIRC.

Like I said though, if the group cleanse was removed I’d be open to letting it slide more.

If conditions are being applied to multiple people then using a charge is helping you as well as everyone else, so it’s a pretty good deal.

Ok, just to back up my point. Check out this 2 man mesmer comp that played abjured last Go4. It’s the full stream but they pick it up VERY well throughout the 3 games what I was saying. All the time the mesmers would have to charge that mantra which took them out of the fight for 3s. When they used the last charge in a fight, they were dead. They even had used timewarp, a 3 minute cool down to make sure they got the charges off.

Also pay attention to positioning, how often did you see the mesmers stood on point or around their team? It’s not often because zerker = dies in seconds when focused and there’s no better way to get focused than being in the middle of the point as zerker.

If you still don’t get it maybe Pyro will be able to drill it in how much of a cost that is.

Thanks for the stream, it’s fun and educational.
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I don’t see many cases of the Mantra channel costing them dearly. In situations where the Mesmers died or were forced away from lack of charges it seems like another healing skill would still be on CD, and in many cases it’s an outnumbered situation that was going south anyway.
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I see quite a few successful in-combat channels with teleports or just temporarily disengaging. Most of these occur after a quick succession of discharges, again meaning other healing skills would be on CD; so overall it’s a point for MoR rather than against.
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As for being taken out of the fight for 3s, if they’re not being pressured they seem to channel when the fight lulls, and in any case Mesmers are for burst damage rather than constant pressure; unless you need a burst right in that 3s it doesn’t really affect a Mesmer’s effectiveness much.
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With regards to using Time Warp to secure a channel, I only saw that twice. The first time he had to blow 3 charges, so any other healing skill would definitely be on CD; plus if he wasn’t able to heal during the stun burst he would’ve died. The second time is the same, he just rallied, popped his healing charges, then waited for the CD before Warping up another MoR. In both cases with any other healing skill he wouldn’t get a second heal off at all.

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I never said anything about “standing in the middle of a point”, I was simply referring to fighting on/around points. Looking at the stream I see a lot of situations where a charge would cleanse allies. Just running past someone while discharging would cleanse them too.

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Overall I think the stream shows that Mantra of Recovery is very strong even without Mender’s Purity: I saw a lot of situations where MoR saved Mesmers where other heals won’t.
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As for what the casters were picking up during the stream, they said things like “X doesn’t have his Mantra charged” which given the context is no different from “X’s Heal is on CD”. With Mantras it’s just more noticeable because it can be off-CD (which after the last patch it nearly always is for most fights) yet unusable.
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It’s an interesting watch, so again thanks for that.

apharma.3741:

Embolism.8106:

I know how it was pre-patch, and going from 1 conditions cleansed to 2 is a pretty big deal. If it was reduced back to 1 condition I’d be content to leaving it without an ICD.

240 range is good enough when on point, really.

Clearly you don’t know how it was.

240 if on point as the current meta with zerker or marauder is suicide for channeling and I wouldn’t use my personal heal to cleanse someone unless they absolutely needed it, even then it’d be questionable to jump onto point, use 2 charges and zip off using what would most likely be half your cool downs.

Edit: I remember there was someone who said they hadn’t played in about 2 years, was it you?

That’s me. I misremembered sorry, and I used to use MoR with Mender’s… that said with the way Mantras used to work it was much, much less effective, you generally wanted to blow all your casts once you started to avoid wasting CD; so it’s not that comparable to the current situation. Plus it used to be a major trait IIRC.

Like I said though, if the group cleanse was removed I’d be open to letting it slide more.

If conditions are being applied to multiple people then using a charge is helping you as well as everyone else, so it’s a pretty good deal.

Photoloss.4817:

Embolism.8106:

@Temporal Curtain: fair enough, I was thinking you might be able to stack more than that. Using Temporal with SoI is annoying however and something should be done.

Any arguments against a unique dummy buff apart from the inability to implement such a simple mechanic for 3 years?

Given this is the obvious solution and people have cried about it for a long time I’m assuming they can’t do it, hence suggesting workarounds.

Photoloss.4817:

Embolism.8106:

Mesmers do have other options for cleansing, not to mention in the current bugged form giving MP an ICD would only reduce the conditions cleansed per channel by 2 if using HM and none at all if not. As for HM’s damage buff, giving MP an ICD would only reduce the number of stacks you can get from MoR by 1. add another MoP and you’re good to go.

Right now MoR+HM alone gives 5 stacks, meaning you aren’t forced to take MoP in the first place if it’s only about burst reflect.

Okay, but 4 stacks vs 5 isn’t earth-shattering. And MoP is great.

@Temporal Curtain: fair enough, I was thinking you might be able to stack more than that. Using Temporal with SoI is annoying however and something should be done.

AlphatheWhite.9351:

Embolism.8106:

ResJudicator.7916:

All you need is to make Confounding Suggestions require an interrupt to proc the stun (otherwise, you just get the longer-duration daze).

When not stunned, mirror blade is super easy to dodge. Even if the mesmer stealth opens on you, you can usually dodge after the first bounce. The only exception is if the mesmer is literally inside your hitbox.

The reason burst on mes feels out of control is because the guaranteed instant-stun from CS+MOD makes it super easy for mesmers to land the burst. The best solution to this is to remove the guaranteed instant-stun, and to instead hook it onto something that requires skill and has counterplay. Simply increasing the ICD won’t change anything, because the mesmer only needs 1 stun burst to wreck you.

Once you take away the guaranteed instant-cast stun, mesmer goes back to being the class with the huge-but-predictable burst.

Also, I’m not sure mental anguish needs any nerfing. Power block already beats it out in PvP, and I don’t think mesmer damage is a problem in PvE.

I’d thought about making CS be on interrupt only, but I don’t know. That seems to overlap too much with Chaotic Interruption.

Mental Anguish is pretty popular, not everyone can use Power Block effectively. PvE generally prefers not to Shatter anyway (which I think needs addressing too).

Chronophantasma + Persistence of Memory = permanent phantasms.

Yeah, Chronomancer is why I didn’t suggest anything to make Shatters more attractive in PvE. Gonna wait to see how it plays out.

ResJudicator.7916:

All you need is to make Confounding Suggestions require an interrupt to proc the stun (otherwise, you just get the longer-duration daze).

When not stunned, mirror blade is super easy to dodge. Even if the mesmer stealth opens on you, you can usually dodge after the first bounce. The only exception is if the mesmer is literally inside your hitbox.

The reason burst on mes feels out of control is because the guaranteed instant-stun from CS+MOD makes it super easy for mesmers to land the burst. The best solution to this is to remove the guaranteed instant-stun, and to instead hook it onto something that requires skill and has counterplay. Simply increasing the ICD won’t change anything, because the mesmer only needs 1 stun burst to wreck you.

Once you take away the guaranteed instant-cast stun, mesmer goes back to being the class with the huge-but-predictable burst.

Also, I’m not sure mental anguish needs any nerfing. Power block already beats it out in PvP, and I don’t think mesmer damage is a problem in PvE.

I’d thought about making CS be on interrupt only, but I don’t know. That seems to overlap too much with Chaotic Interruption.

Mental Anguish is pretty popular, not everyone can use Power Block effectively. PvE generally prefers not to Shatter anyway (which I think needs addressing too).

apharma.3741:

Embolism it isn’t a “theoretical maximum” it’s how it was pre patch. The only thing they changed is it went from cleanse 2 conditions to cast power cleanse. Which may I add is arguably worse as power cleanse has a 1s CD to it so you can end up double tapping MoR and not getting the second cleanse.

Also 240 range AoE cleanse, yeah GL getting much benefit out of that.

I know how it was pre-patch, and going from 1 conditions cleansed to 2 is a pretty big deal. If it was reduced back to 1 condition I’d be content to leaving it without an ICD.

240 range is good enough when on point, really.

I try. This is what I’m currently working with.

Sorry, no Domination here. =P

Master of Manipulation works with Evasive Mirror!?

OMGWTFBBQ

apharma.3741:

Embolism.8106:

Giving MP an ICD would not affect MoR without Harmonious at all (because of the bug) and reduce the conditions you cleanse by 2 with Harmonious. And there are other reasons to use MoR, such as the much higher healing potential (especially with Harmonious and Restorative) and being able to heal while CCed. The channel as you pointed out isn’t difficult to cover for, even with just Phase Retreat.

Also, I think people should remember that MP is a group cleanse, not just a self-cleanse. Actually now that I think about it maybe that should be changed, in which case I’d be more open to keeping MP without an ICD (or a shorter one).

The higher healing comes with a cost. Using HM means your shatters do less damage by a considerable margin. Using MoR without HM should give you 3 cleanses in a 10s time frame, 1 on cast, 2 on mantra use. To channel it again as I say you need to protect it, any interrupt Mesmer worth its salt will be waiting and when you do it with phase retreat they’ll be ready.

They will not only deny you your heal but have had a massively easy interrupt, deal damage and put it on a 15s cool down. Effectively, you’re dead.

Any warrior, thief, necro, engineer and even ranger would have an easy time denying you your heal. That’s without mentioning if you use your decoy, MI, blink or PR you won’t have it to disengage if pressured and you end up out of a fight for nearly 3s. There’s a reason why most classes have moved onto passive or protected heals, it’s for these reasons.

As for the ICD thing, it’s a bug, it shouldn’t work like that and you know it. Putting any form of ICD on MP will most certainly affect it with and without HM, please don’t insult my intelligence or anyone else’s here by saying otherwise.

MoR is only good with restorative mantras or HM and it’s debatable if it’s really worth it without both due to the likelihood of interrupts (whether it be an enemy or you having to interrupt due to burst coming).

HM isn’t just for MoR, it’s also MoD as I’m sure you’re aware. Phase Retreat was a low CD example, obviously it isn’t reliable (hence why I said “even with”).

What I’m getting at is people seem to be suggesting that most channels of MoR is going to get interrupted, when that isn’t the case if you play it right. The flip side is yes you need to cover the channel with defenses, but the gain is almost 3x the HPS of Ether Feast. That’s not a small thing and can be well worth it, not to mention active defense and healing sometimes go hand-in-hand so you won’t be sacrificing anything if that’s the case.

Whether MP not working on MoR’s channel and last cast is a bug or not (it is) is irrelevant. My point is this is how it works in practice currently, so that should be what you’re comparing the impact of an ICD to, not some theoretical best case that none of us have actually experienced or currently “rely” on.

apharma.3741:

Menders purity having an ICD isn’t really a good idea. You actively make the choice to use mantra of restoration and have the faffing around with that for the superior cleansing. Remember, you can very easily be interrupted when channeling the mantra and so you generally need to protect yourself somehow, whether that be stealth, distortion or just plain old backing out of a fight for 3s. All of which have drawbacks in wasting defence to heal.

As far as the HM buff goes, it’s a non issue, blowing it all for a small buff like that is dumb. Getting a 8-16% damage buff by double tapping it is also less of an issue as if you went HM you lost out on clone production so shatters will usually be 1 clone down. The extra clone is more damaging.

Giving MP an ICD would not affect MoR without Harmonious at all (because of the bug) and reduce the conditions you cleanse by 2 with Harmonious. And there are other reasons to use MoR, such as the much higher healing potential (especially with Harmonious and Restorative) and being able to heal while CCed. The channel as you pointed out isn’t difficult to cover for, even with just Phase Retreat.

Also, I think people should remember that MP is a group cleanse, not just a self-cleanse. Actually now that I think about it maybe that should be changed, in which case I’d be more open to keeping MP without an ICD (or a shorter one).

Mikkel.8427:

May as well respond to everything else while im at it…

Confounding Suggestions- Remove the stun. ALL of your CCs last 25% longer. Remove an addition stack of stability.

Rending shatter/Maim the disillusioned- Make them work like blinding dissapation. AoE 5 stacks centered on you when you shatter. Maybe do something similar with shattered strength also, flat 5 might on shatter.

Mental anguish- leave it alone.

Blinding Dissipation- An ICD would ruin this trait, may as well replace it at that point… It should be dodge-able though.

PU- returned to +1 sec. Then change Mass invis base duration to 7 secs and veil base to 5 secs.

Bountiful disillusionment- Doesnt feel ‘bountiful’ should inc the number of boons.

Mender’s purity- fix the bugs, then leave it alone.

Persisting Images/protect phantasms- does anyone even use these? Maybe combine them?

Illusionary inspiration/temporal enchanter- Fine the way they are… but disappointed about there not being a DPS-oriented GM in inspiration (wish Harmonious Mantras was in this tree).

Master of frag- seems kinda weak… and I really think that Diversion should be AoE baseline. IDK what to do with it.

Malicious Sorcery- IF it works the way that the discription suggests and increases the attack speed of ALL of our skills with a scepter equiped, then i think its pretty solid. I want to use a working version.

Master of Misdirection- I hate that this trait counts toward the condition duration cap. Should make it work like the necro’s scepter trait so its not wasted in a condition build that caps flat +duration.

Illusionary Leap- definately should be 900 range.

Scepter AA- OMG please fix it already… would a small splash radius on this really be game breaking?

Phantasmal mage/Disenchanter- should have an extra bounce. Mage should inflict 2 stacks of burning for 4 secs.

All i can think of right now…

CS – I think your suggestion would make CS not taken at all.

Rending/Maim/Strength – these traits stack intensity while Blinding stacks duration, that’s probably one of the reasons the latter doesn’t scale with Illusions shattered. I don’t see the purpose of changing them.

Mental Anguish – Mesmer burst is a bit strong right now, and one of the issues is with MoD it’s trivial to get full benefit from this trait. That said reducing it to +20% max seems a bit lacking for a GM, maybe make it also buff CoF and Diversion duration by say +25%/50%?

Blinding Dissipation – why would an ICD ruin this trait? Ineptitude has an ICD and the blind portion is pretty nice. It’s a strong condition.

Persisting/Protected – I’d agree with merging them, they’re pretty similar. Should have another Phantasm trait in Inspiration probably, there’s one in each tier but none of them seem worth taking.

Inspiration/Temporal – why do you think they’re fine? Inspiration is on a 30s CD which makes it hard to take advantage of unless you save your Phants for it (bad idea), and Temporal’s duration increase is of marginal benefit to Portal, Veil and Warp and the buff is difficult to apply to allies with Portal, Veil or (depending) Feedback. 2s of Super Speed is also questionable.

Photoloss.4817:

Embolism.8106:

Mender’s Purity – Synergises rather too well with Mantra of Recovery, although without Harmonious Mantras it only triggers once (the first cast) per MoR channel… but if that gets fixed, this should have an ICD of 10s.

Bad for PvE, both for cleansing through some annoying pulses and stacking up damage modifiers from HM during burst reflect phases.

Embolism.8106:

Temporal Curtain – I understand not being able to get Swiftness if you already have it is to prevent people stacking lots and lots of Swiftness, but it makes this skill incredibly clunky especially when using it for travel. Reduce the duration of Swiftness from 12s to 5s and let it stack properly. If people want to stutter around in one spot for 5s to get lots of Swiftness, let them.

HECK NO! Completely ruins the skill for open world travel. Just give it a “purple rectangle” dummy buff that lasts 10s and prevents you from receiving further swiftness from curtains.

Also no word on how the entire Chaos line is next to worthless for PvE, Domination is one glorified damage modifier and neither phantasm survival nor shatter received significant updates.

As with all other threads: fix the global power creep FIRST, then start working on builds/traits if the FotM burst even still exists at that point. Start on CS because that’s worthless in PvE/bad in group PvP, then start trading burst vulnerability for continuous application.
Oh, and stop focusing on 1v1, both for mesmer design (Anet) and balance suggestions (everyone else)!

Mesmers do have other options for cleansing, not to mention in the current bugged form giving MP an ICD would only reduce the conditions cleansed per channel by 2 if using HM and none at all if not. As for HM’s damage buff, giving MP an ICD would only reduce the number of stacks you can get from MoR by 1. add another MoP and you’re good to go.

@Temporal Curtain: I would’ve thought that allowing you to stack 5s of Swiftness over and over by stuttering over the Curtain would make it better for overworld travel, that’s the reason I suggested it. Sure you need to stick around the curtain for a few seconds but the Swiftness you get in the end would be much, much longer.

Xyonon.3987:

1st – it doesn’t matter anymore if a trait is minor or major or what ever – there is no tier anymore since you got them all anyways.

2nd – the bug is the missing cleanse on the 3rd charge, worked pre patch.

- good night

Minor or Major does matter because Minor traits are automatically granted on choosing the spec while Major traits are chosen over other Major traits. You’re thinking of Tiers.

I think Restorative Mantras is fine as it is. Healing power scaling is a pretty global problem in GW2, it’s hardly exclusive to RM.

tobascodagama.2961:

Mirror Blade is indeed part of the FOTM combo, but it’s not really the problematic part. My vote there goes to Mental Anguish. I think it needs to drop 5% off both halves. Combine that with an ICD on Confounding Suggestions, and that should dial back the overtuned parts of FOTM burst without totally killing our PvP viability.

Good thought, dialing back Mental Anguish instead would also affect PvE less. I’ll change my post.

apharma.3741:

Embolism.8106:

apharma.3741:

Embolism.8106:

Nevertheless I think Mirror Blade does need toning down.

Reduce vulnerability to 2 stacks. Also you don’t want to be adding more vulnerability to mesmers, we have too much in our burst as is, to the point it is eclipsing an actual 30% damage modifier trait.

Reducing the Vulnerability isn’t going to make Mind Wrack + Mind Stab + Mirror Blade much less potent a burst.

I assume by more Vulnerability you’re referring to Rending Shatter, I think it’s fine: you choose between more damage or a stun to set up a burst.

Actually it’s acting as a massive boost over the old shatter builds we used to use by giving us about 5 more vuln from daze 8 if interrupted with the 9 from the mirror blade. You end up with 17 at least which is equal to 25 stacks with fragility. That’s a 1.25 modifier and when acting with the 1.3 modifier of mental anguish you’re looking at substantially more damage.

Indeed, hence why I think Rending Shatter needs to be better if it wants to compete.

EDIT: if you’re talking about Mirror Blade, I was saying that reducing Mirror Blade’s Vulnerability from 3 stacks to 2 won’t change much, it’s 3% less damage.

I think the main purpose of Well of Precognition is the unblockable attacks. If it were the other way around observant enemies would just dodge after the well ends. It’s an offensive (and PvP-focused) well, not a defensive one.

All’s Well Ends Well needs more. Given it pops 3 seconds after casting it should cleanse at least 2 conditions. A CD reduction for Wells might be nice too, maybe in the form of “Alacrity is ?x more effective on your Well skills”.

I love the Chronomancer, but as many people have expressed I fear it may receive nerfs soon after release. People tend to complain about Mesmers even when they’re not overpowered just because of how the profession generally works.

Zenith.7301:

Embolism.8106:

Zenith.7301:

Embolism.8106:

Zenith.7301:

Embolism.8106:

Pretty sure it not working on the last cast is a bug. Not sure if they intended for it to not work on finishing the channel.

Either way, I think Mender’s Purity needs an ICD of 10s.

Why? It’s basically a minor trait that turns mantra of recovery into mantra of resolve. What’s wrong with that minor.

Ele and guardian and warrior go around cleansing conditions for days but apparently it’s broken if a mesmer does it with an ability that is a channeled, highly interruptible cast.

Because it’s significantly stronger for MoR than for any other Mesmer heal, which is already a lot stronger HPS-wise thanks to the Mantra CD update.

Yeah, and it comes with the drawback of having to recharge the mantra every single time, opening you to interruption/CC.

There’s also the little drawback of doing 0 DPS or utility while casting for 2.5 seconds.

They all have their uses. You take Ether Feast for burst healing, MoR for highest HPS but modest but lesser burst healing. Phantasm specs take signet of the ether and it has a very large burst heal+ offensive perk at the cost of a longer cooldown (but with domination you get 1 sec of distortion out of it, which no other heal gets).

Before the update everybody would just use ether feast. Now people have options.

I’ll just say that with Mender’s Purity and Restorative Illusions, enemy condition builds can barely touch me. MoR is already comparable to other heals, it doesn’t need Mender’s Purity to be competitive: you seem to be implying that nerfing Mender’s Purity would make MoR “not an option”.

@Alpha: Inspiration is a lot more than “just the cleanse”. It’s also great healing and even more cleansing in Restorative Mantras and Illusions, and Mental Defense is a solid survivability boost. There’s also Inspiring Distortion, which IMO has the potential to be potent group support.

Yes, that’s what I’m saying. In PvE, it is one of the main reasons I’ll take it over Signet of the Ether.

And you want to nerf this heal for your stupid dueling sessions.

I don’t buy for one second that in any teamfight with engineers or eles around you’re untouchable considering the amount of condition output far exceeds 9 condi clears you’re getting from the mantra use.

Ele is virtually removing conditions everytime he applies regen, everytime he dodges in water attunement, then with water dagger 5 or earth focus 4, and then some more with cleansing fire.

Or conversely an ele can be completely immune to condi specs by taking diamond skin.

Warrior with cleansing ire and berk stance isn’t far behind in terms of being untouchable to conditions, and guardians are clearing condi right and left on top of farting strong boons for their allies while doing so.

I can see quite clearly in most of your threads, you’re a guy looking for nerfs to mesmer on the sake of pvp duels/1v1 without a care for how that affects other game formats.

I think you’re really overstating the condition cleansing potential of other classes. For starters Elementalist cleansing is mostly 1 condition at a time and cleansing skills tend to be on significant CDs, whereas Mender’s Purity is 2 conditions at a time and with MoR is available quite often (not very difficult to make a Mantra channel uninterruptible with some preparation). Restorative Illusions is likewise pretty spammable with Mind Wrack and Cry of Frustration.

I’m surprised you mention Warriors as being resistant to conditions, in my experience they’re quite vulnerable.

Curunen.8729:

Embolism.8106:

GREATSWORD
Mirror Blade – I feel that making Illusionary Elasticity baseline for this skill (which I don’t think any Power Mesmer took before the patch anyway) allowing you to hit a single target up to 3 times is too much. I’d reduce the number of bounces from 4 to 3.

I have to agree with FJSAMA regarding this.

Even if using Sword/Torch + GS pre patch, I still took iElasticity for mirror blade F1 bursts, and so did many other players – and if people were using Staff + GS then of course everyone took it.

So no, I don’t think Mirror Blade should be hurt in such a way.

Instead I think it should definitely be blockable AND reflectable as any normal projectile.

I’ve already acknowledged that I’m mistaken there. The issue is Mirror Blade is currently part of a very potent burst with Mind Wrack and Mind Stab, too potent I feel; and I think Mirror Blade is the easiest (and maybe most reasonable) to tweak.

Edited the original post to fix my mistake and make my reasoning clearer.

apharma.3741:

Embolism.8106:

Nevertheless I think Mirror Blade does need toning down.

Reduce vulnerability to 2 stacks. Also you don’t want to be adding more vulnerability to mesmers, we have too much in our burst as is, to the point it is eclipsing an actual 30% damage modifier trait.

Reducing the Vulnerability isn’t going to make Mind Wrack + Mind Stab + Mirror Blade much less potent a burst.

I assume by more Vulnerability you’re referring to Rending Shatter, I think it’s fine: you choose between more damage or a stun to set up a burst.

Zenith.7301:

Embolism.8106:

Zenith.7301:

Embolism.8106:

Pretty sure it not working on the last cast is a bug. Not sure if they intended for it to not work on finishing the channel.

Either way, I think Mender’s Purity needs an ICD of 10s.

Why? It’s basically a minor trait that turns mantra of recovery into mantra of resolve. What’s wrong with that minor.

Ele and guardian and warrior go around cleansing conditions for days but apparently it’s broken if a mesmer does it with an ability that is a channeled, highly interruptible cast.

Because it’s significantly stronger for MoR than for any other Mesmer heal, which is already a lot stronger HPS-wise thanks to the Mantra CD update.

Yeah, and it comes with the drawback of having to recharge the mantra every single time, opening you to interruption/CC.

There’s also the little drawback of doing 0 DPS or utility while casting for 2.5 seconds.

They all have their uses. You take Ether Feast for burst healing, MoR for highest HPS but modest but lesser burst healing. Phantasm specs take signet of the ether and it has a very large burst heal+ offensive perk at the cost of a longer cooldown (but with domination you get 1 sec of distortion out of it, which no other heal gets).

Before the update everybody would just use ether feast. Now people have options.

I’ll just say that with Mender’s Purity and Restorative Illusions, enemy condition builds can barely touch me. MoR is already comparable to other heals, it doesn’t need Mender’s Purity to be competitive: you seem to be implying that nerfing Mender’s Purity would make MoR “not an option”.

@Alpha: Inspiration is a lot more than “just the cleanse”. It’s also great healing and even more cleansing in Restorative Mantras and Illusions, and Mental Defense is a solid survivability boost. There’s also Inspiring Distortion, which IMO has the potential to be potent group support.

FJSAMA.2867:

Embolism.8106:

GREATSWORD
.

Mirror Blade – I feel that making Illusionary Elasticity baseline for this skill (which I don’t think any Power Mesmer took before the patch anyway) allowing you to hit a single target up to 3 times is too much. I’d reduce the number of bounces from 4 to 3.

The old builds:

http://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Mesmer_-_Double_Ranged_Shatter
http://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Mesmer_-_Traditional_Shatter

It only made sense sub Illusionary Elasticity with Illusionary Invigoration possibly in sw/t variant since it would only affect 50% of your weps composition. And even then it would compete with eachother very closely.
I would estimate 75% of all traditional shatter builds used it. Close to 100% if u used staff and 50/50 if you used sw/t.

Thanks for the correction. I only returned to GW2 in earnest recently – took a break of nearly 2 years – so I’m out of the loop with regards to how the meta changed since then.

Nevertheless I think Mirror Blade does need toning down.

Zenith.7301:

Embolism.8106:

Pretty sure it not working on the last cast is a bug. Not sure if they intended for it to not work on finishing the channel.

Either way, I think Mender’s Purity needs an ICD of 10s.

Why? It’s basically a minor trait that turns mantra of recovery into mantra of resolve. What’s wrong with that minor.

Ele and guardian and warrior go around cleansing conditions for days but apparently it’s broken if a mesmer does it with an ability that is a channeled, highly interruptible cast.

Because it’s significantly stronger for MoR than for any other Mesmer heal, which is already a lot stronger HPS-wise thanks to the Mantra CD update.

Pretty sure it not working on the last cast is a bug. Not sure if they intended for it to not work on finishing the channel.

Either way, I think Mender’s Purity needs an ICD of 10s.

SWORD
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Illusionary Leap – Unreliable and somewhat clunky. Increasing the range from 600 to 900 would help.

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SCEPTRE
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Ether Bolt – Sceptre still feels rather weak as a condition weapon. If Sceptre Clones used the full Ether Bolt chain (except without conjuring another Clone with Ether Clone) it would help.

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FOCUS
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Temporal Curtain – I understand not being able to get Swiftness if you already have it is to prevent people stacking lots of Swiftness, but it makes this skill incredibly clunky. Make it grant a unique buff (say Temporal Swiftness) to allies that grants 5s of Swiftness every 5s and lasts for 5s (so 10s of Swiftness total). Running over another (or the same) Curtain would refresh the buff. This would allow it to play nice with existing Swiftness without being abusable.

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TORCH
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Phantasmal Mage – Not strong enough for its long CD. Should inflict 2 stacks of Burning, up from 1.

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UTILITY SKILLS
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Mimic – CD is a bit too long. I’d reduce it from 90s to 75s. Could even go down to 60s but that might be too good.
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MANTRAS – Making Mantras only start their CD after the last charge is expended encourages people to expend all their charges ASAP as soon as they use the first charge, otherwise they’re getting the full CD for a “weakened” version of a skill the next time they need it. Instead make all Mantras start CD after the first cast is expended while in combat.
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Mantra of Concentration – Stability duration is too short, but Mesmers shouldn’t be getting too much (group) Stability so I don’t know. At least increase the duration from 2s to 3s.
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Veil – Lackluster skill held down by the fact that it can’t be better than Mass Invisibility. At least increase stealth duration from 2s to 3s. Further buffs would probably require buffing MI too which is already used by a lot of Mesmers.

NEW CHANGES
.

• Removed suggestion for Mender’s Purity: the last update to Mantras made it no longer relevant.

• Added suggestion for all Mantras: actually already included, but what was a suggested nerf is now a buff.

• Removed suggestion for Blinding Dissipation.

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DOMINATION
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Confounding Suggestions – Makes Mantra of Distraction far too forgiving to use. As many people have stated already on this forum, it needs a longer ICD of 10s to each individual target; as with Ineptitude.
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Rending Shatter – I think it needs to inflict 2 stacks of Vulnerability per Illusion. Up to 4 stacks doesn’t make it appealing enough to take over Confounding Suggestions.
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Mental Anguish – Rather too strong, especially when used with Mantra of Distraction. Suggest that extra Shatter damage be reduced from 15% to 10% for both the base and the inactivity component (maximum damage boost reduced from 30% to 20%). To compensate, maybe it could also increase the duration of conditions and control effects from Shatters by 15% and another 15% on inactives.

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DUELING
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Mistrust – 2 stacks of Confusion isn’t that strong even as an AoE, and I believe Interrupts tend to synergise better with Power builds (correct me if I’m wrong). I’d suggest upping the Confusion count to 4 stacks.

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CHAOS
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Prismatic Understanding – Stealth uptime is too long with this trait IMO. I’d lower the bonus duration from 100% to 50%.
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Bountiful Disillusionment – The Stability is great but the Shatter-specific boons are a bit meh. I’d increase Cry of Frustration’s Vigour from 5s to 8s and make Distortion grant 5s of Protection instead of Regeneration.

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INSPIRATION
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Persisting Images – Doesn’t really make Phantasms much more durable. I would make the health bonus apply to all Illusions (don’t want to up the amount because of my suggestion for Protected Phantasms), although Retaliation would remain Phantasms only.
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Protected Phantasms – I would make the Distortion apply to all Illusions too (rename the trait to Protected Illusions). Protection on Shatter seems a bit lacking… would it be too strong to give Illusions permanent Protection? Otherwise maybe 5s of Protection for Illusions on conjure and on Shatter.
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Illusionary Inspiration – This would synergise well with Blurred Inscriptions if the active effect wasn’t on a 30/24s ICD, and by itself it’s really lackluster for a GM trait. I suggest lowering the ICD to 10s.
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Temporal Enchanter – The duration increase is of marginal benefit to many Glamours. For a GM trait I think it can afford to be stronger, make it increase duration by 50%. The ally buffing effect is really finicky and not all that strong, but making it a pulsing buff is too strong for Resistance; so I suggest reworking it. Glamours grant 1.5s of Vigour and Regeneration every 1s to allies within their area. Portal Entre only applies this effect after Exeunt is cast. For Veil this would be applied every time it is crossed.

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ILLUSIONS
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Master of Fragmentation – A minor thing but the bonus Crit Chance for Mind Wrack is a bit low. I’d increase it from 10% to 15%.
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Malicious Sorcery – Rather weak for a GM trait. Make conditions inflicted by the Sceptre (and Sceptre Clones) last 50% longer instead of increasing attack speed.

Fay.2357:

Embolism.8106:

6400 with Mind Wrack is assuming four criticals, Compounding Power, and at least one stack of Might for Runes of Strength. You can achieve higher damage through Vulnerability and Might stacking, plus things like Sigil of Air. On the other hand you can achieve higher damage with conditions too. Remember this is tPvP, not WvW, so numbers will naturally be lower.

Fact is Diversion does damage in CondiShatter and doesn’t in PowerShatter. Every bit helps. An extra 2500 damage plus Confusion when you interrupt isn’t to be sneezed at.

I don’t see why you’re “forced” to run 20 in Domination for utility when a PU Condi build doesn’t have that utility. If you want to play as close to PU Condi as possible then there’s no reason you can’t sink 20 in Chaos for Debilitating Dissipation and Chaotic Dampening.

So, most of your argument is based on a strawman that CondiShatter is forced to run itself in a way that suits your arguments.

The reason for 20 domination in a shatter build is boon stripping on shatter. In a PU condie build, you can accomplish this with the pDisenchanter, but that doesn’t work nearly as well in a shatter build…due to the whole shattering thing. Additionally, aoe boon stripping is one of the main reasons you’d ever bring a shatter mesmer on a team.

Sure, you can drop shattered concentration and go 20 into chaos, but what exactly have you got for that? If you’re shattering, then you’re not getting clone deaths, and if you’re getting clone deaths you’re not shattering. A 0/20/20/0/30 build is basically just a clone-death condie build with a little extra pressure from torment shattering.

Try and remember what role you’re filling on a team. A power shatter build fills the role of aoe heavy damage and boon stripping, allowing for rapid conversions from low hp to downed for multiple enemies. It also generally takes portal for team mobility. A PU condie build fills the role of light team-fight disruption and support with the aoe support conditions, but primarily is a point disruptor, taking advantage of an unguarded point to rapidly secure a decap, then force the enemy team to shift significant resources to push you out of the point.

What does a condie shatter do? You don’t have the heavy damage of a power shatter. Aoe torment is all well and good, but it doesn’t burst people down. You can decap just like a PU condie build, but what happens next? The other team can just send their S/D thief to take you out, or a hambow, or a decap engie, or a condition engie, or a condition necromancer. A condie shatter build is incredibly vulnerable to all of these builds, and only one is necessary to remove you from a point in short order, whereas a well played PU condie can maintain a fight against 2 or more people indefinitely with good play.

So again, what does condie shatter do? The answer is that it does nothing effectively. It’s not as good at dueling/outnumbered fights as PU condie, it’s not as good at team support and heavy damage as glassy shatter, so why on earth would I want it on my team?

There are other options for boon removal, for example Sword Clones. It’s not AoE but it is ubiquitous and on-demand, and for any Shatter build Illusionary Leap > Swap is very useful. Blurred Frenzy, while it won’t do significant damage in a Condi build, remains a potent defence.

Like I said, if you’re determined to play like a PU Condi then you can with more damage added in through Shattering. I know PU Condi pretty well myself, having used that build since before PU got any buffs; and I’ve always Shattered pretty often for some Confusion burst: it’s not that strong but for Mesmer Condi’s low pressure it could make all the difference.

It’s true PU Condi is difficult to remove, but it has one weakness: it cannot contest points in stealth, which is after all the defining point of the build. If, as you say, PU Condi is plenty strong defensively without stealth (and that is definitely true), then a CondiShatter which runs without PU but with most of its other toys wouldn’t be that worse-off, but can dish out significantly more pressure.

A good offense can be a pretty good defense too.

(Having said all that I actually do run 20/20/0/0/30 in tPvP).

6400 with Mind Wrack is assuming four criticals, Compounding Power, and at least one stack of Might for Runes of Strength. You can achieve higher damage through Vulnerability and Might stacking, plus things like Sigil of Air. On the other hand you can achieve higher damage with conditions too. Remember this is tPvP, not WvW, so numbers will naturally be lower.

Fact is Diversion does damage in CondiShatter and doesn’t in PowerShatter. Every bit helps. An extra 2500 damage plus Confusion when you interrupt isn’t to be sneezed at.

I don’t see why you’re “forced” to run 20 in Domination for utility when a PU Condi build doesn’t have that utility. If you want to play as close to PU Condi as possible then there’s no reason you can’t sink 20 in Chaos for Debilitating Dissipation and Chaotic Dampening.

So, most of your argument is based on a strawman that CondiShatter is forced to run itself in a way that suits your arguments.

In tPvP PU is a detriment because attrition is useless when you 1. cannot kill in a reasonable amount of time and 2. cannot contest points. IMO the defense you sacrifice by not taking PU is minor compared to the damage you gain by taking MtD: you’re still much tougher than a PowerShatter while being able to dish out much more pressure and contest points more effectively than a PU Condi.

Condi also has the advantage of not being mitigated by armour, and your opponent’s build may be less capable of dealing with condis than direct damage. For example, other Mesmers tend to be very lacking in the condi-removal front.

Again, remember that CondiShatter can use Sharper Images, Winds of Chaos, Mind Wrack, Cry of Frustration and Diversion as sources of damage, while PowerShatter is mainly just Mind Wrack and the odd Phantasm.

EDIT: To crunch some numbers, here’s how the damage of the two builds, looking at Shatter skills only, compare. Note that these are controlled tests, you can obviously achieve higher damage.

PowerShatter

Mind Wrack: 6400 + 320/cast
Cry of Frustration: 2500 + 640/cast
Diversion: 0 + 320/cast

CondiShatter

Mind Wrack: 4300 + 510/cast
Cry of Frustration: 3400 + 1020/cast
Diversion: 2500 + 510/cast

Wyrden.4713:

Embolism.8106:

Yunalesca.9850:

The “problem” about MtD is the low amount of torment stacks and the duration you get from one shatter (F1 – F3). You get a maximum of 3 stacks for 4sec which is not enough condi pressure to say it’s worth investing points in this GM trait. Sure you inflict other conditions but it’s not worth.

You can build a solid support shatter build with staff/scepter+torch for team fights in pvp where you can put a lot of confusion stacks on one target and the torment is, like you said an additional condition to cleanse. But except for teamfights, and there are better options then a condi-shatter build, the trait is not optimal designed.

Pyro suggested in one thread to buff the trait to 3 or 4 stacks of torment per illusion which would add enough condition pressure on your target to make this trait worth investing points. But otherwise I’d recommend IP over MtD.

3 stacks of Torment for kitten translates to about 2000 – 2500 damage, that’s not bad at all. Combined with Shatter Confusion, Illusion Bleeding, and possibly Burning and Poison; the Mesmer can maintain reasonable uptime for all damaging conditions, plus Vulnerability.

For a condition Mesmer, taking MtD greatly improves your damage, at the cost of survivability (you can’t take PU, but PU is a crappy trait for tPvP anyhow). Saying IP is better than MtD is misleading: what you mean to say is you think PowerShatter is better than CondiShatter, which is debatable. I’d say they’re different: before MtD Power definitely > Condi in tPvP, but now I’m not so sure.

well 3 clones wich DO NEED TO HIT the target for merely 2-3 k dmg? in normal shatterspec u do that w 1 clone , if all 3 clones including urself hit enemy its… well.. way more dmg, lets guess over 10 k?

That damage is from Torment alone. Remember you also have Confusion, plus you’re not restricted to Mind Wrack: Cry of Frustration and Diversion can all be used to deal comparable (or in the case of CoF, superior) damage.

Another thing to consider is that a CondiShatter spec has all the offensive capabilities of a “normal” Condi spec, i.e. Sharper Images and Winds of Chaos.

Curses! I am discovered! * Decoys *

Yunalesca.9850:

The “problem” about MtD is the low amount of torment stacks and the duration you get from one shatter (F1 – F3). You get a maximum of 3 stacks for 4sec which is not enough condi pressure to say it’s worth investing points in this GM trait. Sure you inflict other conditions but it’s not worth.

You can build a solid support shatter build with staff/scepter+torch for team fights in pvp where you can put a lot of confusion stacks on one target and the torment is, like you said an additional condition to cleanse. But except for teamfights, and there are better options then a condi-shatter build, the trait is not optimal designed.

Pyro suggested in one thread to buff the trait to 3 or 4 stacks of torment per illusion which would add enough condition pressure on your target to make this trait worth investing points. But otherwise I’d recommend IP over MtD.

3 stacks of Torment for 4 – 5s translates to about 2000 – 2500 damage, that’s not bad at all. Combined with Shatter Confusion, Illusion Bleeding, and possibly Burning and Poison; the Mesmer can maintain reasonable uptime for all damaging conditions, plus Vulnerability.

For a condition Mesmer, taking MtD greatly improves your damage, at the cost of survivability (you can’t take PU, but PU is a crappy trait for tPvP anyhow). Saying IP is better than MtD is misleading: what you mean to say is you think PowerShatter is better than CondiShatter, which is debatable. I’d say they’re different: before MtD Power definitely > Condi in tPvP, but now I’m not so sure.

Illusionary Counter is not a “melee” block, I don’t know why people still think this. Neither is Illusionary Riposte for that matter.

Why is Illusionary Persona considered better than Maim the Disillusioned for condition builds? IP in a condition build mostly means one or two extra stacks of Confusion, while Maim the Disillusioned is up to three stacks of Torment. If nothing else MtD is considerably more reliable as it inflicts an extra condition (more to cleanse) that always deals damage and doesn’t require the user to be in melee range.

I’ve been running MtD in tPvP and I actually feel viable. Before MtD Mesmer condition is not viable in tPvP, you simply don’t put out enough pressure.

Nuka Cola.8520:

Embolism.8106:

Nuka Cola.8520:

Embolism.8106:

Well, if take Prismatic Understanding you can get 6s of stealth out of Veil; which makes it pretty comparable to Mass Invisibility if you use it just for yourself (or have a very well-organised team).

1. you need to stay close to veil which isn’t something you can always do and 2. its on 90sec CD for 2-3sec stealth and 4-6sec if you sleep on it. Not very impressive if you ask me.

I didn’t say anything about impressiveness, I said it is comparable to MI, which is also 6s stealth on a 90s CD.

lets not put PU as if this trait was used by absolutely everyone… Its 4sec vs 5sec and to get those 4sec from Veil you have to be stuck in same spot while you can move with MI… so the reality is 2sec vs 5.

Eh, I made it quite clear I was talking about “with PU”, so in that context without PU is irrelevant. And you don’t have to stand in one spot, you can run in one direction, dodge back into the curtain and create a Clone and run in the opposite direction. All in all for giving you a 6s breather in a fight it is comparable to MI. You can also reduce its CD if you so desire, can’t do that with MI.

I’m not defending Veil mind you, I consider both Veil and MI to be underpowered. The only reason MI sees use is because our other Elites are situational, MI is the only one that is generally useful; even if its uses are not quite Elite level.

Personally I would like to see MI’s CD be reduced to 60s, and Veil’s CD reduced to 75s, stealth duration increased to 3s and curtain duration increased to 5s.

Nuka Cola.8520:

Embolism.8106:

Well, if take Prismatic Understanding you can get 6s of stealth out of Veil; which makes it pretty comparable to Mass Invisibility if you use it just for yourself (or have a very well-organised team).

1. you need to stay close to veil which isn’t something you can always do and 2. its on 90sec CD for 2-3sec stealth and 4-6sec if you sleep on it. Not very impressive if you ask me.

I didn’t say anything about impressiveness, I said it is comparable to MI, which is also 6s stealth on a 90s CD.

Well, if take Prismatic Understanding you can get 6s of stealth out of Veil; which makes it pretty comparable to Mass Invisibility if you use it just for yourself (or have a very well-organised team).

I’m surprised more people aren’t using iDisenchanter. It cleanses 2 conditions every 4 seconds or so from multiple allies, is on a 16/20s CD and it strips boons. Even if you get only a single shot it’s still comparable to Null Field.

If your argument is that a tPvP Mesmer doesn’t have utility slots to spare with IoL and Portal and what-not, well. You’re sacrificing your own combat capability for group utility so I fail to see the problem.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Embolism.8106:

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Seeing as how it would be on other weapons it wouldn’t technically be MORE stealth it would just give the option for different weapon combo.

Given that we have two weapon sets, adding a stealth skill to any other weapon IS technically more stealth…

not if we only take ONE of them weapons, not everyone uses the Torch, because lets face it without the Stealth it would not be used AT ALL.

…

So your argument is “it isn’t more stealth if you don’t take it!”

That’s like saying “Mesmers technically have just one stealth skill if I only take Decoy!”

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Seeing as how it would be on other weapons it wouldn’t technically be MORE stealth it would just give the option for different weapon combo.

Given that we have two weapon sets, adding a stealth skill to any other weapon IS technically more stealth…

We don’t need more stealth options. Even the Thief only has one weapon skill that directly applies stealth.

I’d rather see Veil and Mass Invisibility get buffs than have more stealth skills.

Clones did indeed used to deal significant damage. I can’t remember the exact amount but I seem to recall Sword Clones dealing about 200 damage per hit.

Certain Clones still do a lot of damage (without Sharper Images), and by certain Clones I mean Staff Clones. In fact for a Condition Mesmer Staff Clones are an important part of your DPS.

Condition Mesmers are not significantly worse than Power Mesmers against Veteran and stronger mobs, i.e. mobs that take some time to kill. This means that in dungeons, Condition Mesmers generally perform quite well.

Against trash mobs however Condition Mesmers are significantly worse DPS-wise compared to Power Mesmers, especially when fighting groups of trash mobs. The main reason for this is because for a Condition Mesmer to achieve its maximum DPS it must conjure three Staff Clones against the target, and with the rate at which trash mobs die you can’t do that for every trash mob. Coupled with the ramping-up nature of condition damage (and also Might stacks), fighting trash mobs as a Condition Mesmer is an inefficient affair.

The “conditions getting overwritten by other people’s conditions” thing is never a problem when it matters. In a small group (e.g. a dungeon group) there’s rarely enough condition damage builds for the cap to kick in, and conditions applied by non-condition damage builds won’t overwrite yours because presumably your conditions do more damage; and a stack that does more damage take precedence over those that do less.

Are Condition Mesmers viable for PvE? Yes. Is it a good idea to run a Condition Mesmer over a Power Mesmer in PvE? No. But if you like the playstyle of a Condition Mesmer (like I do) you won’t be missing out on content or feeling like you’re not pulling your weight.