Based on current content, I can definitely see Glint being the go-to Legend for group PvE. I don’t see Mallyx being better (maybe comparative in personal DPS), unless we have a lot more conditions coming with Challenging Group content. That 10% stat boosts takes about 5 seconds to actually work up to full energy before being relevant. So, it doesn’t have a huge uptime.
For solo’ing, Shiro-Glint will probably be one of the better combinations as the lower CD between daggers will help immensely with some burst healing…as well as the evades and impossible odds. Jalis will probably see more use when you need to be able to have your group sustain damage (as realistically…you can’t avoid it all) and Ventari will probably see use in the quirky encounters where only the tablet can block projectiles (like Tom in Uncat Fractal).
Imagine if fire overload had a 600 radius and did 15k dmg over 6 seconds in cele gear. but then kicked you out of fire for 30 seconds. To me, that sounds AWESOME and hopefully anet will push it more in that direction as HoT gets closer.
Do you realize that with D/D Ele, spamming Air #1 can get you an expected dps of 2500 per second (since you hit twice per second)?
That means you get the same 15k dps after 6s without locking you out of an attunement. If you use a staff, it’s even more dps if you use a Staff just purely by spamming Fire 1/2/3.
There is no good incentive to Overload except for showing off beautiful animation.
Not to mention burning damage(estimate around 1k per second) + Bleeds (throw in 400) plus Air1 at a consertive 2k = 3.5k/sec = 21k damage in 6 seconds. But targets are never that stupid to stand there and recieve the full brunt. Unless we are talking about pve. Not sure about pve. Maybe tempest was made for pve?
If Tempest was made for pve it would have had damage bonuses even in it’s earliest incarnation, but it didn’t, so I guess it wasn’t.
So the tempest isn’t made for PvE?
Okay…then wtf was it made for? Interrupts are plentiful in PvP and WvW so….no attunement? Maybe zerg WvW with the cleanse? Because frontline support is suicide.
From a PvE point of view, it only adds protection against projectile reflection IF AND ONLY IF the Overload Fire does more damage than the auto-attack and damage modifiers were added to the spec. However, the Overload mechanic works completely against the Dagger rotation and Warhorn does not outshine Focus in group content. So, the only viable option in PvE for tempest is paired with Staff. However, based on the current meta, the only thing different it does is make you susceptible to interrupts and lose your attunement swap.
The reason Staff DPS dominates PvE is because bosses do not move, do not usually reflect/destroy projectiles, and have more health than armor. (even if the last one were to change, Ele has no real reliable method of condition application). Hell, even dagger/focus only gives you ways around the second part of the staff. You still need bosses to stay in fire fields.
Shouts would not be used in PvE as they offer nothing to the meta that we don’t already do. The overload mechanic relies on you remaining immobile as well as the bosses so the channel is not interrupted and the entire amount of damage is applied. Why would I risk my attunement when I can do the same damage with less risks and have better healing and condi cleanse options with swapping to water attunement and using 3 and 5 vs overload water?
It’d be a viable choice….probably.
The issue is that Scepter is really lacking in terms of damage as it only really has 2 good sources of it and one is really hard to land. Warhorn loses 2 blast finishers so you do lose out on might and the utility gained by wielding one isn’t unique to the weapon and is done better by Focus and OH Dagger. The overload mechanic might be able to work at least in Air as Fresh Air will reset the CD…but Air might not be as powerful in the long run to be worth it.
With the BWE next weekend, it’s best to try out there and see how the e-spec plays. Based on what we saw during the Livestream, Tempest and Warhorn are VERY lacking right now. You can be successful, but there are better builds out there. Hopefully our concerns get addressed before release. But at the moment, sadly there’s no point it.
Artificer and Techomancer really wouldn’t fit in the current theme for the Forge. Both of those imply the combining of magic and technology where the user augments his/her magic with technology rather than what engineer does by augmenting their technology with magic (magitech). If Engineer were given a magic based weapon (or if Eles were given a tech based one), I could see it being a Technomancer.
Especially wielding a giant flaming hammer and making drones, Forge is pretty much the most kitten name to give the Engineer. Honestly, I don’t see Engineer as a heroic profession. These are the people in Tyria who don’t have much (or any) access to magic and typically aren’t going to be ridiculously strong like a warrior. They used a combination of slapped together gadgets (that used to backfire) and basic elixirs with some magical components mixed in.
(Sidenote: I don’t get the dislike of Dragonhunter. It fits. It’s Tyria’s version of a demonhunter…since the only real demons are pretty much gone now)
The OP just doesn’t want to play warhorn, I get it. Even if (a big if) Tempest sucks, Ele is in a great place now.
As long as bosses don’t move or nullify projectiles.
But I mean…if they did that…they could be challenging! Who would want to have a challenge to overcome? MORE WALLSTACKING!
Seriously. Fire Staff in PvE is ONLY strong because it exploits the weaknesses of the AI. If a boss moves too much (like Archdiviner or Mai Trin) then…oh look…DPS decreases because Lava Font can’t land. Or if a boss reflects projectiles (Grawl Shaman before he takes a skinny dip in lava) then…oh look…Fireballs don’t land.
Ele is in a great place for old content! Yes! Because going into an expansion we want a profession to risk being worse in the new content is a good idea!
This is pretty much the most ineffective argument against giving Elementalists a mobile DPS spec with low CDs. The moment bosses are designed to be good the Ele has to work harder and there’s a chance that YES, theoretically Ele does the highest DPS. In practice, probably not so much. Theorycrafting relies on the OPTIMAL conditions, not actual conditions of a fight.
Gliph takes up an utility slot.
Those fields come “free” with warhorn“Free” he says. Yeah, it’s totally free, just ignore the fact that by taking warhorn, you lose 2 blast finishers, an invuln, a personal reflect, a projectile destruction field, and/or one of the very VERY few mobility skills that Ele gets. Not to mention the fact that you have to take the Tempest trait line to even use the warhorn in the first place. So, which trait line are you going to sacrifice to run Tempest? Water? There goes your sustain, cantrip cooldown and condi removal. Arcane? There goes your access to boons. Fire? Kiss your damage goodbye.
Dust Storm isn’t even all that good! It’s two blinds at most per target, on a 30 second cool down. Glyph of storms (earth) has five times that on a 60 second cool down.
You take 7 more skills with warhorn alone. Longest water field, pulsing aoe bling, 3 might+copy of all boons aoe, longest fire field, aoe water knockback, aoe stunbreak.
Oh come on. Ele warhorn may be the best weapon in the game. They’re even doing a new set of sound effects.
Well, let’s see. 2 Blast finishers (so 6 stacks of might), a huge projectile destruction area, a projectile reflection skill, a condi cleanse, 2 knockdowns, and an invulnerability vs. the largest fire field, AoE condi cleanse and heal, a long range movement ability, a knockback, a knockdown and 2 blast finishers vs. a weapon with no blast finishers (so you lose 2 overall) which means that the longest fire field is more usless, slow moving projectiles, copy all boons, and an AoE stunbreak with a trait only.
Really? REALLY? Warhorn is the best weapon? It’s nowhere near the current offhands.
5
Very little to gain by going into this and what’s gained is not worth it based on what we already have.
Just so I understand, you think that none of the tempest traits offer anything new despite the fact you do get overcharge, might on shouts, multiple aoe stun breaks, increased defense from protection etc. but other classes get much more? Dragonhunter mainly deals with longbow knock back and virtues, in fact 1 of the traits in each tier are only really usable if you take all three ( longbow knocks back, knock back applies cripple, increased damage to crippled foes). And you don’t NEED any trait line, trait lines are detemined by what is optimal and guess what every other profession also “NEEDS” certain traits to be optimal that’s just how things are. Guards “NEED” virtues because of the stability and condi removal, they “NEED” valor for the defensive and heal traits, they “NEED” radiance for the one handed damage crit chance, they “NEED” zeal for the greatsword cdr trait, they “NEED” honor for the shout cdr trait.
Overcharge does nothing new. Yes, it’s cool and COULD offer an alternative on its own. HOWEVER, it has the same problem Elementalists currently have with their damage being stationary (as to get the full effect of an overload you’d need to make sure the boss stands in the AoE).
The except for the Elite, the shouts are not going to see use in PvE for the most part. Arcane Brilliance is a blast finisher and a pretty strong heal. Arcane Blast is still going to be mandatory. Personally, I prefer to run Arcane Shield and Signet of fire, but the only possible useful utility shout is the AE stunbreak. And you wouldn’t use it enough to capitalize with might on shout. Hell, that trait shares a slot with reduced Overload. So…yeah, not going to every happen (as does the extra reduction on protection).
I’m not talking about OPTIMAL builds, I’m talking about viable builds. Tempest could be viable IFF they look into adding some PvE element to the Adept and GM traits. For instance: making Latent Stamina work on any overload would be much more useful than attuning ONLY to water. OR making Elemental Bastion increase damage by 10% when under the effects of an Aura. Something to add to gameplay.
Not every fight needs stability or condi clear. And Guardians can get that from other utilities (and do). Virtues is taken more for Unscathed Contender than the other traits. And Dragonhunter adds a bit more along with the traps which will probably be very good for damage based builds. It’s another choice whereas tempest in its current form adds no new choices. Just more of the same.
Except that no other reveal elite specs add more of the same. Dragonhunter adds range and offensive support to the Guardian profession who were a bit lacking on it and can compete with Virtues in PvE. Reaper adds both the Greatsword and Reaper shroud which will add the ability to cleave and limited mobility and control of fights. I’d comment on Chronos but I’m a crappy Mesmer…so I won’t insult them by trying.
So, this is unique to Elementalist so far as the community can’t see what new things the elite spec adds and that the majority of us see this as a complete detriment to use. There are currently no benefits to bringing Tempest to a group. At least from the discussion.
Are you serious? Mesmer still have to choose between shield and staff/gs/sword+torch which are all very good weapon sets. They will get another shatter but they also sacrifice a trait line and all associated benefits just like EVERY elite spec will force people to do. Guardian gets longbow and give up what? If you take out scepter focus well great you got long range and the sacrifice the active blocks and condi removal from focus as well as the GUARANTEED immob on scepter. Reaper is still up in the air as it does not even look all that amazing. The point is everything has trade offs these elite specs are not supposed to be power creep or even pure buffs, they simply offer a new play style. Tempest gives very strong AoE boon share, AoE damage while still being able to run dagger or scepter which are more solo oriented weapons.
Thos are the problems with the weapons. You don’t HAVE to equip the weapon for the elite spec to use it. You can still run GS+Mace/Torch on Guardian.
The problem with Tempest is that it DOESN"T offer anything new. We can already do all that stuff (in PvE) on an Ele with those weapons. We actually LOSE more to run Tempest than to stick to Arcane in terms of support. And we can’t give up Air and Fire because Air is NEEDED to use Lightning Whip on dagger because for SOME reason Anet didn’t use this perfect opportunity to fix the auto-attacks of the dagger so in between abilities, we need to weave LW. And fire is needed because it’s just that good.
I think there’s a disconnect here going on.
See you got a bunch of people who are all like, “Woo Tempest this is so cool, it’s all so cool!” and then you have the more level headed people saying, “None of this stuff is practical.”
Is the Tempest stuff cool? Sure. New stuff. Neat. Any of it particularly useful? Not a bit. PvE players are guessing PvP and PvP is guessing WvW and WvW is guessing PvE cause no one can actually figure out where any of this cool stuff would actually be used over what we already got.
This can sum up almost every revealed elite specialization. There are people who think its OP since all they see is additional stuff but the people who play the profession see that they will have to give up a weapon and/or trait line so its not as strong as it seems. At the end of the day, my personal opinion is the forum theorycraft warriors need to be completely ignored and we need to get actual hands on experience with the classes to see/feel how it works.
Except that no other reveal elite specs add more of the same. Dragonhunter adds range and offensive support to the Guardian profession who were a bit lacking on it and can compete with Virtues in PvE. Reaper adds both the Greatsword and Reaper shroud which will add the ability to cleave and limited mobility and control of fights. I’d comment on Chronos but I’m a crappy Mesmer…so I won’t insult them by trying.
So, this is unique to Elementalist so far as the community can’t see what new things the elite spec adds and that the majority of us see this as a complete detriment to use. There are currently no benefits to bringing Tempest to a group. At least from the discussion.
I see tons of issues with Tempest, but I think they are all the result of one bad decision: trying to make the elementalist a melee class.
Why not make a new buff that gives you 1500 range for a short period of time? A trait that extend your staff range by 300 for 5 seconds after an overload. Or something remotely refreshing.
Feels like all of this has been designed only for PvE.
Except it isn’t. This is all crap for PvE. The two main builds: Fire-Air-Water and Fire-Air-Arcane all have plenty of damage modifiers that we lose going into this. Arcane gives more useful support as Auras really aren’t that reliable in PvE for support compared to boons. Focus just kicks the ever-living daylights out of Warhorn and OH Dagger would still be a better choice. AND STAFF would benefit WAY more from Overload and lower attunements than Dagger main hand as Dagger usually stays in Air and only cycles through the others to keep up huge might stacks and permafury. These two are already great in melee…this doesn’t change anything!
In PvE you dont need Water or Arcane, unlike PvP or WvW.
I agree that it sucks to lose the DPS boost from arcane, but the overload could make quite some damage on a pure zerk build. Lightning Storm Overload Air, Ice Bow, Meteor, Overload fire, etc.
Actually, the first part is factually incorrect. Water has 2 damage modifiers that are considered required to run the optimal damage build. Arcane is the secondary choice as it has a good damage modifier (or if you’re like me and run reduced CDs on arcane abilities) PLUS perma-vigor. So, unlike PvP, where Water AND Arcane are usually needed, in PvE one of those is strictly required along with Fire and Air.
But yes! I agree with the overload. It could make up for the loss of damage modifiers compared to Arcane. However, they have the SAME problems as staff in that if bosses move (like they do in high level fracs) then the overloads aren’t as effective.
I see tons of issues with Tempest, but I think they are all the result of one bad decision: trying to make the elementalist a melee class.
Why not make a new buff that gives you 1500 range for a short period of time? A trait that extend your staff range by 300 for 5 seconds after an overload. Or something remotely refreshing.
Feels like all of this has been designed only for PvE.
Except it isn’t. This is all crap for PvE. The two main builds: Fire-Air-Water and Fire-Air-Arcane all have plenty of damage modifiers that we lose going into this. Arcane gives more useful support as Auras really aren’t that reliable in PvE for support compared to boons. Focus just kicks the ever-living daylights out of Warhorn and OH Dagger would still be a better choice. AND STAFF would benefit WAY more from Overload and lower attunements than Dagger main hand as Dagger usually stays in Air and only cycles through the others to keep up huge might stacks and permafury. These two are already great in melee…this doesn’t change anything!
For PvE, it’s pretty much bland, boring, useless, an dmore of the same. If the numbers are better, OH LOOK…more camping attunements! More reliance on Fire Staff and Fresh Air D/F. What about Warhorn? Yeah, it doesn’t have any blast finishers or projectile reflection/destruction…or invulnerability…or anything good really. A big fire field! Yay! It’s not like we can use it with dagger besides one blast finisher.
Oh…and more reliance on hoping bosses can’t move out of AoEs. So yay! It’s like things we’ve been saying and hoping Tempest will improve…it doesn’t! The traits are so boring and useless for PvE! The shouts? Yeah, maybe some use…but we still have to sacrifice a blast finisher and other support! The elite is great, but it’s weighed down by everything else.
I don’t do PvP and I rarely do WvW on my ele. I like to do high level Fractals and dungeons on this character. And really, this has just been a downward spiral. I’m not going to give up forever, but I just want to play the game with something new. So, I’ll look towards Forge or Revenant for now.
Not everything has to be aimed towards PvE, or you know we don’t know yet how useful support will be in HoT maps. This spec can make Cleric Ele a viable frontline support.
Except, there are better options for support than this. Or i should say: extremely similar options for support that are for the most part better but in no way, shape, or form change the actual playstyle because we have 1 playstyle and nothing changes about it. ever.
For PvE, it’s pretty much bland, boring, useless, an dmore of the same. If the numbers are better, OH LOOK…more camping attunements! More reliance on Fire Staff and Fresh Air D/F. What about Warhorn? Yeah, it doesn’t have any blast finishers or projectile reflection/destruction…or invulnerability…or anything good really. A big fire field! Yay! It’s not like we can use it with dagger besides one blast finisher.
Oh…and more reliance on hoping bosses can’t move out of AoEs. So yay! It’s like things we’ve been saying and hoping Tempest will improve…it doesn’t! The traits are so boring and useless for PvE! The shouts? Yeah, maybe some use…but we still have to sacrifice a blast finisher and other support! The elite is great, but it’s weighed down by everything else.
I don’t do PvP and I rarely do WvW on my ele. I like to do high level Fractals and dungeons on this character. And really, this has just been a downward spiral. I’m not going to give up forever, but I just want to play the game with something new. So, I’ll look towards Forge or Revenant for now.
Ty for taking the time to structure your answer. Here is my reply :
1st of all, I’m a pve player and while I do not practice speed clear, I follow pve tournaments and read dps spreadsheets enough to understand what we’re talking about.
I agree with you about the classic PvE build :
- staff is inefficient as soon as your target starts moving.
- scepter requires pre-stack and brings little self sustain, although in an organised group, either someone will babysit you or stuff will die so fast survival won’t be an issue.
- dagger is the most flexible option for both solo and group content (kudos to Neko and Zelhyn for their guides about this build btw) and both dagger and focus have their use.
However I strongly disagree about the need of a melee cleaving weapon :
- dagger can cleave even though it’s damage is not great however it’s cleaving at 300 range which is all things considered awesome.
- hammer is the true melee cleaving weapon. This is why it was not nerfed during the June 23rd update. The devs know it fills an important role so they didn’t touch it.
- the engineer tool kit has much more utility than the hammer but it doesn’t have a matching dps especially in pve where it’s not part of the engineer meta (except for trash run). So the comparison you made is void.
All in all the sword as a melee cleaving weapon would not bring anything the ele does not already have.
Wharhorn on the other hand could bring something new : sustained PBAoE damage. Think about locust swarm. Elementalists do not have a skill that has similar functionnalities. We have some auras but they are punishing skills rather than offensive skills and thus have almost no use in PvE.
A storm surrounding the elementalist and damaging/debuffing ennemies standing close fill a niche previously unoccupied in the ele kitten nal. In encounters where invulnerabilities or anti-projectiles are not needed, the warhorn could bring some extra dps to a dagger build.As such I am much more interested by warhorn than I am by swords.
*Yes, dagger can cleave…on ONE skill. I’m saying what if ALL of the autoattacks on dagger could cleave like Lightning Whip (obviously each would be different, but they’d all cleave). Fire AA is only good on a single target and water needs to make sure that the projectile doesn’t hit…anything to return.
*Hammer is NOT a weapon. It’s a utility. ANd one that requires us to give up 20 skills AND our entire mechanics to use. Imagine if Mesmers had to give up clones and shatters to equip a sword. Or if Necromancers had to give up Death Shroud to get greatsword…(Let alone get a BETTER melee Shroud). It works, but too much is given up in order to get it.
*It’s not a great comparison, but it shows the difference between conjures and kits as Elementalist and Engineers are the only professions to lack a weapon that gives them cleave. (As Necro Dagger was buffed in regards to that to at least provide SOME form of it).
Yes, Warhorn could provide all of that, but I am NOT going to argue why Warhorn is good/bad until I see it. I’m going to argue that Dagger/X is so drastically underperforming that ANY offhand has to be blatantly overpowered in order to make up for the weakness of the main hand. Dagger requires two specialization and 4 traits in order to consider being viable. Which means if Tempest is good, there will be NO choice for running Warhorn at all. (Scepter is even more mandatory) This is BAD for warhorn. I’m complaining about this because I WANT warhorn to be given a fair chance. I’m not a fan of the warhorn skins, but I still want to be surprised if Warhorn and Tempest are awesome. Regardless, they are both going to be tied to the main hands…or Tempest will just be another option to run staff with. And I will refuse to play an Ele for some time if Staff continues to dominate for a few more years. I’m tired of staff. I want something new.
Enlighten me : why do ele NEED a true melee weapon ? What kidn of niche could it fill that the dagger does not ?
I believe all this madness springs from a very basic and childish feeling : why can’t I have the same toys the mesmer has ?
The hope some of you had was based on some VERY OLD datamining that has been nullified a few weeks ago by a second wave of datamining.
The people who actually give a kitten about the game and follow what’s going on saw it coming from far away.
Also : look at the chronomancer shield. In the meantime GET OVER IT.
Because we have no way to cleave in melee outside of…1 ability in terms of weapons. Sadly, you’re in the boat that doesn’t understand why this is a huge disadvantage for all forms of content, but I can only speak for PvE.
So, staff is pretty much dominant in the current meta in PvE…until we start fighting mobile mobs. You know…what might be considered challenging content. Staff is the best DPS in what WoW deemed a Patchwerk fight. Essentially a boss fight with no mechanics for DPS to avoid and the boss would stay in the same place the entire fight. Once a boss starts moving, Staff DPS can start lowering as the abilities take more time to land…or even might be difficult to land.
Now to circumvent this problem, we’d need some form of melee burst with an actual cleave mechanic. This why we can just be close enough to the boss to continue to do damage. Scepter and Staff pretty much have the same problem of needing to have stationary targets to do their damage. Dagger on the other hand isn’t as limited.
So, run dagger simple solution! Except not really. Fire is pretty much a necessity for damage as Burning Speed is a very strong ability. On top of now lasting longer to blast out more might and give out fury. And now we get to the problem of Lightning Whip. So, in order to play dagger to its fullest damage, we need the most access to lightning whip. Solution: Fresh Air. Okay, that solves that problem, but opens up another. Now we HAVE to pick 2 specializations in order to even get Dagger/X to compete with staff.
Now then, let’s add Tempest and Warhorn into the mix. Say that Warhorn pretty much gives us enough damage and utility to be a comparable choice to Focus. In order to run a dagger build in PvE, Fire-Air-Tempest are mandatory. And if bosses are very mobile…yep pretty much mandatory.
This is NOTHING AT ALL like Mesmer getting Shield. Mesmer is not kitten for having a shield. Chronomancer might be an alternative, but it might not be necessary. And even then Mesmers and EVERY other profession will have access to a regular melee weapon with cleave. You might argue Engineers don’t, but rifle is very mobile and doesn’t require a sitting target to do damage….and their toolkit outshines our Lightning Hammer in terms of mechanics as it doesn’t remove their toolbelt AND their weapon slots. (We essentially lose 21 skills and our class emchanics to run a conjure).
So please educate yourself before saying get over it. A lot of us want Warhorn to be good. The problem with warhorn IS NOT warhorn. It’s that we don’t have any good main hands. I’m hoping that dagger is given better and regular autoattacks in the upcoming expansion as it fits their design principle concerning Elite specs. However, without such a change, elementalists are now at a huge disadvantage for fighting mobile bosses.
Oh, I wholehearted agree that IF the two mainhands were comparable to staff then this would be a much more interesting choice.
My optimistic prediction is that we were never going to get sword. All of the sword skills were the same as daggers besides the auto-attacks. We assumed that this meant they were a work-in-progress. However, I’m starting to think that they were testing how they could redo dagger and give it actual auto-attacks. By making it a different weapon but with the exact same numbers, they can give a very accurate side-by-side comparison.
And Anet has said they don’t want elite specs to fix the problems the base professions have. Engineer and Elementalist were the only professions that lacked melee cleave and an auto-attack chain. (As Necromancer has gotten better cleave with its dagger, though still limited) Both had ways to hand it with their utilities. However, Engineer lost its weapon abilities while toolkit was put on…so overall they only gave up 1 utility slot. Elementalist had to give up their entire weapon slot, their profession mechanic, AND a utility slot in order to get a “weapon” that didn’t even have full duration.
Lightning Hammer was said to get a nerf in the June 23rd patch…but it didn’t. Which means they’re fine with the way it is. In the end, Elementalist lacks a real melee weapon without having to resort to giving up everything.
So, we needed better main hand options and…a melee weapon. Dagger does have plenty of utility, but in order to be comparable to staff…it has to take fresh air to use lightning whip. Coming from a software developer background the issue is: Elementalists need a strong main hand to compete with staff, lack a real melee option, will be the only profession to completely lack a key mechanic, and will be shoehorned into one weapon choice without such an update (at least in PvE), and we need to fix that without requiring any expansion.
I’d think giving Dagger a true AA chain can fix pretty much all these issues. What if ALL auto-attacks were just as good as Lightning Whip? Then to be remotely viable, Fresh Air would be a choice rather than a mandatory selection. This could lead to less air camping so Air specialization might not be as mandatory with Dagger. And this would solve the problem…for every elementalist.
Honestly, I know this is just way too kitten ed optimistic…but if they announce something like that…by the Alchemy will so much of the rage and fire go down from Ele. Yeah, no one will get sword, but we get what sword was going to give us…without getting another weapon. Then on top of that we get Warhorn. 2 weapons. Hard to argue. Anet is hailed as heroes. GG;WP.
Where is written that the elementalist warhorn MUST behave like an already existing warhorn being a support offhand, etc?
I mean, I simply don’t understand why people are reacting like this without even knowing the proper facts, only based on a preview watercolor painting that says nothing else, lol?
Because, we know the profession. We know where its strengths and weaknesses lie.
So, let’s take the two popular 2 weapon builds: Scepter/Focus and Dagger/Focus. Scepter, while it is a big pile of crap, does provide 2 blast finishers. Because we are ele’s and in PvE we will always take the fury coming from our fire fields…we need access to a fire field on Warhorn in order for it to be considered an alternative using the Scepter.
For the dagger, Focus brings two blast finishers…which means warhorn in order to be considered an alternative must have a minimum of two blast finishers.
Alternatively, it could provide the equivalent amount of might and fury…which would mean that warhorn functions like it does for other professions.
BUT WAIT, there’s more! Focus also provides: Unblockable chill (Water 4), a huge projectile destruction sphere (air 4), projectile reflection (earth 4), condition cleanse (earth 4), and an invulnerability skill (earth 5).
So because we have to choose between Warhorn and Focus, warhorn MUST bring something that is more useful than all the above in PvE. (I don’t do PvP, but i presume the list is just as long).
Now, you might ask: “Why does it have to compete?” Simple answer…because otherwise it won’t be used. If Focus can provide more to a fight than a Warhorn, why bring the Warhorn? It becomes a non-choice. And the answer isn’t to nerf focus. Focus is great. It’s our second best weapon. We just want something to pair with it so Staff in PvE has some competition. And even then, there’s a good chance that Staff might not be the best DPS in the upcoming xpac. Staff is ONLY good when the boss stands still…so new AI could make staff just a viable choice. And now…Ele’s are rightfully kittened.
There’s nothing “elitist” about being disappointed in a choice made by the developers. Especially one that now puts one profession at a disadvantage to the rest. Only one autoattack out of 9 actually can cleave. We have no access to a weapon based autoattack chain (which, yes can add some skill to the game to learn how far into the AA you go before overriding it with other skills).
I’m disappointed in the choice for Warhorn. My only hope is that they announce that dagger is getting a real AA chain in all of its attunements. The problem with Warhorn for me…is that even IF it can compete with Focus and Offhand dagger…it has to be used with either Dagger or Scepter.
In PvE, that means that Fire and Air will be MANDATORY specializations (unless the AAs are changed) because Fire is…well…it’s just too good to pass up for any DPS and Support based Ele, and Air is needed for Fresh Air to get back to spamming lightning whip. Now, say the auto attacks on Dagger are changed and they are cleave and are roughly equal, then Fresh Air might not be as mandatory and Arcane could possibly see some use.
But would I not buy the xpac or quit the game over this? No. I’d just either work harder on getting an Ascended set for my Revenant or just wait until the Engineer Specialization comes out and hope that I can run a kitless build with it.
While all the discussions about how good/bad warhorn will be in the upcoming days plaguing the forum, the main issue isn’t that Warhorn is bad, but that it’ll be brought down by the main hands.
But, let’s remember something about the datamined sword skills. Everything was the same as dagger except for the auto-attacks. So, what if we were never going to get sword, but the just put all those abilities under a different weapon in order to internally test them? Say for instance…because dagger might be getting that auto-attack chain.
I guarantee they knew that players would backlash against Warhorn no matter how good it was. And they probably know that it not only has to compete with Focus, Offhand Dagger and Staff while being brought down by the really bad main hands.
So, I propose this discussion. What if Dagger was given that auto-attack chain? They have clearly stated that they do not want Elite specs to make the major changes for the professions. Why wasn’t it ready for the June 23rd patch? Well, optimistically I’d say that it just wasn’t ready. If I wanted to be cynical about such a proposed change, it’s that they knew that Staff was going to get the good stuff in this patch and that it alone could hold Ele’s over until the expansion, so they wait to tell us as a thing to offset Warhorn.
Just imagine that during Friday’s stream they announce this. Last week they announced weapon swap for Revenants. So they’re willing to keep information from us until it’s the right time to show us to get us more excited.
Let’s not be negative about Warhorn. If dagger is given a dedicated autoattack chain (on every attunement) as part of the content coming with the expansion, how would you feel about this change?
I spent 88g on Gallant Sword for my Ele…which also looks good with other professions.
I planned on making Incinerator for my Legendary, but now I’ll just keep my other gifts and T6 mats and prepare for…whatever comes out with HoT legendary wise. Not much of a loss for me…other than making Ascended armor and weapons for Ele.
blah…needed a melee mainhand….got an off hand
well….mesmer needed another main hand and got another off hand instead.
seems Anet would rather you have to choose between already strong options, than remedy class weaknesses.
The difference is simple with that. ahem
Sword Mesmer…is still good. The strongest ability also gives you a high evade uptime. Oh…yeah…and a vuln stacking auto-attack that properly cleaves.
Mesmer might be in need of another main hand, but it still has a melee option. Not a close ranged, point-based AoE option.
no doubt ele was it worse….but either way its a curious decison on Anet’s part to ignore glaring weapon deficiencies in some classes.
I would say in the defense of Anet’s decision on Mesmer Shield that they got a lot of nice things added in during the June 23rd patch. Some nice things for Offhand sword iirc. (that stacking buff) Ele really just got more damage…and staff just pulled far ahead of dagger mainhand.
At least from my perspective, I can see why they chose shield and how it adds some really cool and unique buffs for the Mesmer and Chronomancer which gives more to a group.
Ele does need more ways to deal damage, but if they put that on the warhorn…then our two major support options are…gone. And again…back to the argument about mainhands being trash.
For the most part, I can see what gaps taht Anet is trying to fill with new weapons for the other professions. But they’re ignoring the Sarlaac pit for Elementalist and throwing a warhorn in to try to feed it.
A summary:
I’ve ranted enough why this is a bad idea…but I’ll at least be willing to hear out why the devs think this is a good idea. We still have two main hands which are both so Alchemy-kitten ed awful. So…Warhorn has to hold up on its own and be better than staff. Because Scepter is extremely awful and is in DIRE need of a rework…and dagger is used because…Lightning Whip doesn’t suck.
Shame that it’s not going to change anything. Fire and Air are needed for either mainhand to work. Fire is needed for the lower CD and fury on fire fields. And air is needed because Fresh Air is good. So…Tempest has to compete with Water and Arcane Specializations.
Regardless, this is going to have to do a lot to change the meta. If it doesn’t provide a Fire field, then Scepter will be completely useless with Warhorn. So, either we get a Dagger/Focus or Dagger/Warhorn…and even then…dagger was so nerfed by the loss of Bolt to the Heart while Staff gained SO much from the specializations.
Normally, I try to be optimistic. I try to see things from the developer side. But after playing ele for 1700 hours, I know where its strengths and weaknesses lie. I know Elite specs are supposed to be a side-grade, but this is just a bad move. Elementalist are now the ONLY profession without a true melee weapon. Our auto-attacks are either complete kitten or just boring as hell. And even the latter is only in ONE attunement.
At the end of the day, Warhorn has got to be able to pull off the work of a two-handed weapon. It has to bring so much to the table. I’m scared and worried it won’t. Yes, I’m sad for no sword, but I’d get over it. I just want to see something new for the Elementalist. I just want to play my favorite profession a new way. I hope this is something spectacular, because the only storm to follow will be a kittenstorm from the one profession who lacks melee and real burst.
What will I do? Probably go with Revenant or Engineer-Forge. HOWEVER, I was already planning on that. Dragonhunter doesn’t interest me much. Now, this is all for the first few months of the xpac…maybe just first few weeks before I’d probably just keep going with my ele. Running the same build (if Warhorn is just trash). I want to play something new with the expansion. Reaper looks cool, but…Sword/Axe Revenant just kicks its kitten in the coolness factor for me. I’m just going to wait to see what the Forge brings to the table.
blah…needed a melee mainhand….got an off hand
well….mesmer needed another main hand and got another off hand instead.
seems Anet would rather you have to choose between already strong options, than remedy class weaknesses.
The difference is simple with that. ahem
Sword Mesmer…is still good. The strongest ability also gives you a high evade uptime. Oh…yeah…and a vuln stacking auto-attack that properly cleaves.
Mesmer might be in need of another main hand, but it still has a melee option. Not a close ranged, point-based AoE option.
anet kittened it up, now i know how the guards felt when they got the lb, i dont know anyone who wanted warhorn , that kitten can stay with the warriors
The difference is that Longbow gives Guardians an actual ranged weapon…and isn’t held down by a bad weapon like Warhorn will be.
I want this to be good. But Warhorn from a PvE perspective has to compete with our three best weapons: Focus, Offhand Dagger, and Staff while being tied to our two worst weapons: melee dagger and scepter.
If this does not have access to a firefield, then Scepter+Warhorn will be completely useless. I just…cannot understand why they would release this now. If scepter has some rework, then yeah…it could work. But right now…our mainhands are the lowest tier weapons we have.
Even if the specialization and abilities on their own are good, what can this warhorn provide that staff cannot? Staff has a permanent fire field. It has some extremely powerful AoE. Its autoattack in fire is very strong. Then it has a ton of utility in water. Dagger mainhand and Scepter are going to drag this weapon down unlekittenanges their skills too.
I want thi sto be good. I want it to be given the fair chance it deserves to be a choice for our weapon kit. I don’t want this to be something that just gets tossed aside. And honestly, I just cannot see how this is going to bring anything new to the table.
Ferocious Strikes: Gain increased Ferocity when dual wielding weapons.
Yeah, Sword+Axe, Mace+Axe, Sword+Sword, and Mace+Sword all qualify to get it. Only one trait in that line requires the use of a weapon…and that’s the skill speed one…and you can get that boost as long as you are wielding one sword equipped.
Ideal setup would be to not use the Mace 2 at all because an Ele fire field will be vastly superior to anything we can give. However, if we need to we could keep a fire field down when there’s not an ele around, but that wouldn’t be the ideal setup.
Again, Mallyx is good for Single Target burst, but remember the number 1 rule about DPS. Dead DPS is no DPS. When you’re safe and secure to do that burst (like in CoF1 for me), yes the optimal build is good to run. If you’re not safe and secure, I’d still say that Jalis is going to be practically better than Mallyx. Condi Cleanse, Stability, AoE vuln (chance) and Lifesteal plus damage from all the hammers (can have up to three with traits), and the lower group damage is great. Plus the other bonuses of Retribution in my eyes makes it outweigh Mallyx and Corruption for the majority of the playerbase.
On a single target boss, yeah, Corruption will be better than Retribution (in terms of damage), but once you get into multiple targets I think Retribution will pull ahead when you combine Reflexive Summon with Vengeful Hammers (essentially have 3 hammers that can do vuln and lifesteal).
As for my traits, I’d look at either Close Quarters or Improved Aggression. CQ lowers damage coming in from mobs outside of 360 range and IA improves taunt and makes taunted mobs do less damage (and taunt lasts longer on NPCs). IMO, there are a few very good places to use taunt (Mai Trin, end boss of Dredge Fractal, and Legendary Grawl shaman) but CQ would be better unless IA lowers taunted mob’s damage lower than that.
The Master tier is a bit lacking. I’d either go for Retal on dodge or Prot on being disabled. With the stability on dodge, it’d be a really good combo (plus the endurance on hit would work well with this). Lastly, Reflexive Summon unless it’s a situation where you don’t want AoE flying everywhere, but those are the situations where Mallyx and Corruption would be better than Jalis.
We saw yesterday that the hammer can trigger lifesteal as Roy did have that trait up. If you watch the video, you notice a little light flying around his character. I think that’s the Reflexive Summon trait, but since it’s a projectile and he’s wielding bolt…it turned it into a lightning bolt.
Overall, I do agree with the choices for Devastation and Invocation, but I’d probably end up running with Sword+axe/Hammer with the legends and specializations I mentioned (unless Glint is more boon focused). In my mind, it’s going to be difficult to compete with Jallis because he does have a general utility set. Yeah, people want him to tank, but to me he seems liek the active forms of survivability we get in GW2. Plus the Lightning Field from the road is going to add more vuln with hammer and sword AA 2 (iirc)
I don’t see Corruption being big in dungeons unless you’re going for pure single target damage.
With its high speed attacks, sword can probably keep a higher uptime on the Hammer Summons and adding all those hammer attacks from the upkeep can probably add a hefty amount of AoE Vuln and lifesteal.
I can see Sw+A/M+Sw (or Hammer, or just OH Sword) with Shiro/Jalis using Devastation-Retribution-Invocation being more useful for the majority of dungeons and Fractals. (IMO, Rite of the Great Dwarf will end up outshining projectile destruction in Fractals when combined with Jade Wind like on Grawl Shaman) Jalis offers AoE Stability on a low CD (great for Aetherblade Fractal), an actual condition cleanse (which Revenant lacks outside of Jalis and Ventari, but the latter’s condition cleanse takes 2 casts)., and the AoE hammers. Hell, I can see a few uses for the Taunt ability in certain Fractals.
This is not so much going for the optimal damage build (as I do agree that what you’ve posted at this time looks to be the optimal burst damage build). I always think when theorycrafting, especially in GW2, it’s good to have a few builds that aren’t optimal but perform well in dungeons since we can’t rely on PuGs to always run the optimal build, nor can we always count on the optimal speedrun build to reliable in non-speedrun settings. (We don’t want to end up like Engies who only had one optimal build…that was tedious to learn and pull off…and in some places actually impossible to use.) Pure damage builds are great on paper and when you can line up the perfect setting to theoretically use them…but practically, the majority of the community will not be in situations to use them like this.
Eh, Revenant gets weapon Swap. Use Staff for Trash mobs and Sword for Bosses.
If u want to do dmg, staff is no option sadly.
They just did a huge bump on the staff’s damage. I’m not entirely sure if that’s the case now. Even still, you’re likely better off sticking with S+S. Or more realistically, in pve, S+A.
seeing the offhand sword, I don’t see a big use for off-hand axe. Sword 3 is a better shadowstep than Axe 4 as it doesn’t require a projectile to hit and it’s on a shorter CD (and only costs 5 more energy). It has twice the range, but in most PvE scenarios that much range is going to put you out of buffing range.
Sword 5 is much better for pulling bosses than Axe 5. Axe has use in clumping up mobs, sure…but the rift is harder to aim and has the potential for pulling mobs out of AoEs due to clunkiness.
Overall, I get the feeling that Sw+Sw is going to see a lot more use than Sw+A in the majority of instances.
But that trait shares a slot with their huge lifesteal. And AoE Ferocity competes with skill speed boost.
Of course in PvE, it’s going to be take AoE Ferocity in a group unless another rev is doing it.
they still get life steal outside of that trait. They have a heal and one of the minor traits steals life.
One that’s nearly equivalent to the Necromancer Blood minor. The only difference is that revenant can only get that life steal if their target has vuln on them. Otherwise, they don’t get it.
Also, on your comment about the strength of Enchanted Daggers. Yes, it’s strong, but it takes a minimum of 6 seconds to get that full health back as the daggers have an ICD of 1 second. So, it’s a great Heal over Time Effect, but it can’t defend against burst damage.
But that trait shares a slot with their huge lifesteal. And AoE Ferocity competes with skill speed boost.
Of course in PvE, it’s going to be take AoE Ferocity in a group unless another rev is doing it.
Necro Life Steal: Signet of Vampirism + Blood Minor Trait 1 (only affects player) + Lesser Signet of Vampirism (Blood Adept Trait) + Vampiric Aura (Blood Master trait) + Well Life Siphon (Blood GM trait)
Revenant Life Steal: Enchanted Daggers (only affects player) + Devastation Minor Trait 3 (only affects player) + Devastation GM trait (only when attacking from flank/rear and only affects player)
So, that’s BS. Necro has MUCH more access to lifesteal and a good portion of it affects the party where as it’s an offensive survival mechanism for Shiro Revenants.
It’s in beta. Yes, I agree that it’s annoying how passive it is, but the revenant we played last week was the same one shown in PAX south. Between internal testing and one beta weekend, that is a LIFETIME ago in software development terms.
If interesting energy options aren’t added, I’d say wait until we play again to make a judgment. How things work theoretically rarely if ever work in an in-game setting where we don’t have a static environment. Then once we arm ourselves with experience, give feedback as to why we need more active ways to gain energy.
Signet of Vampirism + Blood Minor Trait 1 + Lesser Signet of Vampirism (Blood Adept Trait) + Vampiric Aura (Blood Master trait) + Well Life Siphon (Blood GM trait)
No, Revenant has less access to life-steal than a Necromancer. Vampiric Aura and the Blood Minor are what they share. Enchanted Daggers is good better at solo while the two Signets are better for group (plus with signet mastery, those can remove boons and add might). Then add in the Protection from the wells, plus the life-steal from the wells…then add in the life-steal going on if they are damage wells.
So no, Necro has better Life-steal and more of it.
Why not just have the option to turn it on or off?
Turning it off and manually controlling it would offer the most DPS while turning it on will create a more relaxed playstyle. I don’t see the problem with giving us more choices in how we’d like to play
Actually necros are getting shouts and they’re also getting a warhorn, so this won’t be true unless they give shouts to two professions.
But Necro already has Warhorn
I don’t understandThat said, Eles making a fuss about Warhorn is silly. Warhorn is pretty great on all three classes it is on. There’s not much I would trade my Locusts and Wail of Doom for, except for maybe a block, evade, iframe, blink, teleport, reflect, leap or stability. Any of those would be nice, but that’s not the point. I’m sure it will be just as good on Ele.
Here’s the thing. Warhorn is not a bad idea for an elite spec. I think it could add something to the profession.
However, it is a bad idea for the first elite spec. Yes, it could offer new ways to do damage and support….but with an offhand. The issue (as I’ve stated previously in this thread) is that our two other off-hands are the strongest weapons we have after staff. They are very diverse and can bother cover a wide range of situations. Warhorn would have to be as strong as those two in order to be considered a side-grade, but really… Dagger Offhand is great for a close-range brawler while Focus is great for mid to close range with defensive and support options. The two of those cover pretty much all facets of the game.
The issue is that we DESPERATELY need a main-hand to go with out amazing offhands. We are still going to be the only profession without a melee weapon that can properly cleave and use an Auto-attack chain. Lightning Hammer does NOT fit this role as you have to give up 21 abilities in order to gain 5 more. Warhorn COULD be a cone-based damage option…however…then it has to compete with staff.
The elementalist currently needs (from a new weapon) Cleave, Mobility, and Burst. As much as I LOVE the idea of sword filling this niche, I’d be happy with axe or mace as well. Warhorn cannot be able to fill all these niches. It has to be either an off-hand or some cone-based (or worse single-target) ranged damage. Which would be fine IF AND ONLY IF we had other elite specs to fill in the niches we lack. Again, let me reiterate. I agree it can be good. This is just what the Elementalist needs in order to have a full and unique toolkit.
My mesmer would gladly take lightning whip instead of my sword aa
You want to trade an autoattack that applies vulnerability and either rips a boon or does more damage if no boons are active on the target for one that does the same amount of DPS or less?
SWEET! Sure…do less damage and provide less support! I’ll gladly take a very useful and versatile auto-attack over lightning whip.
Perhaps that is the point though? Like, for example:
Elementalist weapons aren’t about burst or defense or support, that’s what their attunements are for. Ele weapons are more about range. You have weapons meant for a specific range (although Focus tends to have overshadowing defensive utility) and Staff is build primarily for range without much utility for close range and then you have things like Dagger that is built primarily for close range and the only thing it can do well with range is moving closer to the target (mobility).
So with all that said, why does it make sense that you can only use range OR melee? Is it illegal to mix mid-range and long range? Or what if Warhorn was more a long range + mobility weapon? It’s synergy can be that it helps move close to enemies for your other weapons while also being able to disengage and still pressure the foe.
In theory, yes that’s how it should work. In practice, it’s failed on almost every account. Now, I haven’t used staff in PvP so do take my knowledge and experience on that weapon from a PvE point of view.
Staff…is most effective in PvE at close range. Shorter travel time for Fireballs plus standing in Lava Font is much more effective than standing at range. Dagger, yes, it is built for close-range and does its job…pretty well. However, it’s pretty much mandatory for builds now to go Fresh Air because Lightning Whip is TOO good to pass up. The other auto-attacks completely suck in comparison. Scepter is just…it really needs a rework as only Phoenix is a good ability and DT can be passable.
It’s not wrong for most other professions. It’s more wrong for Elementalist because Warhorn would HAVE to compete with something. If it’s mobility and damage, then it competes with OH Dagger, which also has melee options and defensive abilities with it. If it’s better at range and support, then either the range part will be pointless because the two main hands we have can’t function to their fullest extent at mid-range…or it competes with Focus.
The problem boils down to the abilities either being redundant, a flat-out upgrade, or useless. It’s just not going to add enough long-term diversity to a build like a melee weapon would. I know we’re going to have more Elite specs in the future. And here in lies another problem. We can only have 1 elite spec at a time based on Anet’s current design. So as soon as we get the melee weapon we are desperately lacking, mind you that if we don’t get one we will be the ONLY profession remaining without access to a weapon (read weapon not utility skill) that can provide melee cleave, that the majority of the Ele community will move onto that.
I WANT Warhorn to be good and to be given its fair slot as a choice. But in the current environment there is very little it can add and very little synergy with the current 1h options for both Main hands and Off hands. If scepter got a rework to be a good burst range option, I guarantee that they could make a Warhorn offhand to synergize VERY well with this concept.
What I’m saying at the end of the day is to not just look at how it changes things in this expansion but future updates. If we do get a warhorn, there’s going to be an outcry from the community. Staff will probably continue to dominate all forms of PvE in terms of damage, support, and utility. This is just a very bad time for a non-melee 1 hand to come out. They need to show us something awesome for our first Elite spec. Not more of the same.
I mostly play an SD Rifle build in PvE as I despise grenade kit and multi-kit builds. Granted, I don’t do high level play; however, I do play enough to have an idea of the new changes.
I don’t completely agree with your assessment of Firearms. Considering it was previously giving extras for being at mid to long range, it is now a HUGE improvement as Engineers are strongest at close to mid range. It also adds a ton of synergy with the upcoming Hammer. I do agree that the range on some things needs to be increased. Your assessment on Sharpshooter I disagree with. Lowering the cast time and CD of Blunderbuss and Jump Shot have made them easier to land (at least for me) and land more often. I do notice the difference in the increase…but again…I don’t play a meta build so I use Rifle AA.
Tools has a lot of synergy with Firearms now (especially if you’re like me and run an SD Rifle build). It’s easier to dodge and easier to stay in melee. This will probably have a lot of Synergy with Hammer as well. Yeah…sucks Adrenal doesn’t stack with vigor, but the other two have their uses. I do agree on the assessments on each trait, but overall the traitline is stronger with more synergy.
Why do people keep comparing Sword to Dagger? Dagger is not a true Melee weapon, it has 300-600 range skills and no real auto attack chain, it’s not the same! Yes it’s close(ish) range but it doesn’t make it a melee weapon, I’d class it more as a close/medium range caster weapon.
I imagine sword being more 130 range with auto attack chains, that is a melee weapon.
Doesn’t really matter since it seems Warhorn is rather likely, just getting tired of reading “We already have a melee weapon, we don’t need another (sword)”.
What are you on about? dagger is a short ranged weapon (most skills between 240-400 range) that brings a lot of mobility. The mobility is needed to make our short ranged gameplay viable. Bringing in another short ranged mainhand weapon would be stupid and won’t add anything to the game. Especially if you make the range even shorter. We’re no tank.
I’d rather see a good alternative to using staff in raids/WvW. That means a weapon with large group content usability and long range, preferebly 1200. Wouldn’t be surprised to see a warhorn getting 1200 range.
Dagger is a close ranged Point-Based AoE weapon. It is NOT a melee weapon. It has no burst and, arguably, only has 2 mobility skills as one has to connect before it can even be used a mobility skill.
Adding an actual melee weapon with cleave would add more to the profession than you evidently realize.
So, if Warhorn was added with 1200 range…what main-hand goes as far? Uh, none. What main-hand is actually good outside of close range? None. If Warhorn was added as a main-hand with 1200 range…what off-hand goes as far? None. What off-hand is actually good outside of close range? None.
THIS IS THE ENTIRE PROBLEM WITH WARHORN! It CAN be a wonderful weapon. It can add something new, but it is only used in ONE hand. There is no synergy with a long-range one-handed option. We could make it two-handed…but then it competes with staff and would either fail OR JUST DO THE SAME THING.
Now, I would strongly advocate Warhorn as a one-handed range option…if Scepter got a rework to be better in mid-long range as a single target option. However, that isn’t the case. Adding Warhorn, sure, it could spice things up in the short-term. But in the long run it’ll add very little new to the profession. That’s why Sword, Axe, or Mace would be the BEST weapons to currently give us. We have AMAZING offhands. We need equally amazing main-hands that can do more than use a few abilities regularly.
Water has two flat damage bonuses. One you’d use just for conjures and the other works as long as you’re above 90% HP.
Theoretically water provides more damage and can provide a lot more healing and condition cleanse than Arcane. But on a practical level, they are more equal. Though for Scepter or Dagger builds, I’d say Arcane can pull ahead in terms of practical use.
I’m pretty excited about the idea of using a warhorn on elementalist. Just imagine calling the storms with your warhorn, and depending on your attunement you get to use a high DPS skill or some other utility skill giving out some sort of condition or ally buff. Just like all weapons on ele give a range of different types of skills.
Why does ele need an auto attack chain skill for DPS? This is not hellokitty online where things are made easy enough where mashing the #1 key is enough to go through your content. Go play axe warrior instead?
I don’t mean to be rude, but apparently you don’t understand the issue with lacking melee cleave. As if we are given warhorn we will be the last profession to lack it. No, Lightning Hammer doesn’t count because you give up 21 abilities for 5 that aren’t even a permanent thing like Engi weapon kits.
As I have said time and time again in this thread, there is NOTHING wrong with getting Warhorn as a new weapon. However, this is the wrong time to do so. What they need to give each profession is not so much a new way to play something old, but to start rounding out what each one lacks. Guardian for instance lacked really good options for ranged abilities; therefore, the Longbow and traps were the solution.
Warhorn as an offhand can either be support or as you have said AoE. We are NOT lacking in those categories for ANY weapon combo. Could it do something new that we don’t have? ABSOLUTELY! Can it out perform Focus and Dagger? Possibly! But would that solve the issue? NO! Our main hands will still be crap compared to our great offhands.
As a main hand it could do cone-based AE to make up for a lack of cleave, or it could be a main-hand focused on single-target AE. But…our current off-hands are strongest in close range. So either the Warhorn would have to be strong enough to work on its own from range…or compete with the other main hands and staff.
It doesn’t have to be sword. It just has to be a main-hand weapon that gives: cleave, mobility and burst (in more than 1 attunement). Then it can be compared to the other main-hands and staff. Otherwise, it’ll be a lesser alternative. This is why the Ele’s are so PO’d about the idea of Warhorn. It’s not bad. It’s just not what we as a profession need. We WANT to play with new things. We NEED some new flavor in our profession to liven things up. Warhorn at this point cannot fulfill either of those…and still be a Warhorn.
Actually necros are getting shouts and they’re also getting a warhorn, so this won’t be true unless they give shouts to two professions.
But Necro already has Warhorn
I don’t understandThat said, Eles making a fuss about Warhorn is silly. Warhorn is pretty great on all three classes it is on. There’s not much I would trade my Locusts and Wail of Doom for, except for maybe a block, evade, iframe, blink, teleport, reflect, leap or stability. Any of those would be nice, but that’s not the point. I’m sure it will be just as good on Ele.
Here’s the thing. Warhorn is not a bad idea for an elite spec. I think it could add something to the profession.
However, it is a bad idea for the first elite spec. Yes, it could offer new ways to do damage and support….but with an offhand. The issue (as I’ve stated previously in this thread) is that our two other off-hands are the strongest weapons we have after staff. They are very diverse and can bother cover a wide range of situations. Warhorn would have to be as strong as those two in order to be considered a side-grade, but really… Dagger Offhand is great for a close-range brawler while Focus is great for mid to close range with defensive and support options. The two of those cover pretty much all facets of the game.
The issue is that we DESPERATELY need a main-hand to go with out amazing offhands. We are still going to be the only profession without a melee weapon that can properly cleave and use an Auto-attack chain. Lightning Hammer does NOT fit this role as you have to give up 21 abilities in order to gain 5 more. Warhorn COULD be a cone-based damage option…however…then it has to compete with staff.
The elementalist currently needs (from a new weapon) Cleave, Mobility, and Burst. As much as I LOVE the idea of sword filling this niche, I’d be happy with axe or mace as well. Warhorn cannot be able to fill all these niches. It has to be either an off-hand or some cone-based (or worse single-target) ranged damage. Which would be fine IF AND ONLY IF we had other elite specs to fill in the niches we lack. Again, let me reiterate. I agree it can be good. This is just what the Elementalist needs in order to have a full and unique toolkit.
Add in the Condition damage giving back life then hitting a target with 4+ bleeds triggers Lesser Vamp Signet…. and it’s going to be amazing.
I plan on making a Sinister Reaper for launch. It might not be a very strong dungeon or Fractal build, but it’s going to be awesome in open world.
Unless we’re going to beat people over the heads with a warhorn, I pretty much explained why it’s a lesser option than a real melee weapon. We need real melee cleave as dagger only gives it in one ability. We need an auto-attack chain. I don’t count LH for it because you have to give up 21 skills to gain 5.
Would I like a sword? HELL YEAH! I want to actually be a battle-mage and they FINALLY have a sword skin (Gallant) that’s perfect for my Ele.
Will I stop playing Ele if Warhorn comes out? Not forever. Mostly at the start. I want to play new things in an expansion, not the exact same build that I’d be playing. If it’s an off-hand weapon, then I just don’t care unlekittenanges the main-hand abilities in some way. Otherwise, the playstyle still revolve around the same tricks and gimmicks.
The reactions here is proof how much people in general care so much about appearance over mechanics and skill workings. You want to swing a sword as an ele? well… too bad.
There’s absolutely no information available about how the warhorn would work or what kind of skills it will have. So why are people QQ’ing already?
I don’t dislike the idea of a warhorn.
it’s been sad several times that ele needs a mainhand or twohand weapon rather than offhand, it brings very little diversity to the class. How is that connected with looks? Warhorn is usually a support weapon and ele doesn’t need that either. Would be cool if there was actually a viable dps spec for ele for once, but that’s not going to happen with a warhorn. And people actually care about the mechanics, that’s why they don’t want warhorn. The reason people would like warhorn were usually like ‘’It would be so cool’’ and ‘’I can use my Howler’’, so please restrain yourself from statements like this.
HEY EVERYBODY! This guy says Ele can’t do damage!
He’s saying you’re at best mediocre and not viable to deal damage! Can we confirm this now, that Elementalist is at most a pity spot in group content and can’t solo anything within a reasonable amount of time nor get decent kill ratio in PvP?
While there is a bit of hyperbole in that previous message, there is a modicum of truth.
Dagger (MH) is meant to be a brawler type of a weapon, built more for sustain and a little bit of damage.
Scepter is just…all kinds of wrong. The only damage it puts out are in Fire 2 and 3…and the former can’t even be properly aimed.
Staff is very good, but doesn’t have any bursting potential for damage. It’s all consistent.
So yes, Ele’s do lack a strong burst weapon.
I wrote this on my tumblr. It pretty much summarizes why Warhorn doesn’t fit as either an offhand OR a mainhand.
Comparing it to offhands:
Dagger and Focus offhands are both fantastic. They cover a wide range of abilities and roles without ever feeling remotely redundant. Both are also best in close range (focus can be decent in mid-range). So, Warhorn in order to compete might have to go long range. And here’s the problem with that: Scepter and Dagger main hands are…best in close range. So any range advantage Warhorn has is pretty much useless as the mainhands need to be in melee to be fully effective.
Comparing it to mainhands:
So, the idea that Warhorn as a main hand is intriguing. However, again we have the same problem. Dagger is best at close range. Scepter is best at close to mid range. So Warhorn COULD be long range. Except none of our current offhands work well at long range. Thus the weapon would have to hold up mostly on its own at long range. Then it would compete with staff….and lose. I can’t foresee any way for a mainhand alone to beat staff at long range.
Why we wanted sword:
Elementalists are lacking two things right now: A burst weapon and a true melee weapon. Now, one might say scepter fills burst. It doesn’t. Two skills can burst. And one you can’t even properly aim. So, no, scepter isn’t burst. One might add that Dagger fills melee. It doesn’t. Dagger is PBAoE close ranged weapon. Only ONE ability can actually cleave. Sword had skills built in already to use a full autoattack chain and cleave.
Again, Warhorn could be great for Eles, but it’s not what we need at the moment and doesn’t bring anything new to the table as we HAVE to remember that the old weapons will be used with it.
From a PvE standpoint, this is missing a couple things:
1) Arcane Brilliance and Arcane Wave. For PvE, those are basically mandatory for most fights as the Blast finishers are pretty much necessary. The Signet of Air isn’t that necessary for boss fights (thought useful for getting around).
2) Elemental Surge over Evasive Arcana. EA is really good in PvP, but in PvE…not so much. This gives you 150 Ferocity and lower CD on Arcane skills, so keeping the buff up is now even easier. Bountiful Power might be an option, but I’d say that Surge beats out power as you’ll have enough crit with a zerker set up to make the nice crit bonus outweigh the usual amount of boons (Vigor, Might, and Fury). Plus, again…more blast finishers.
3) Sigil of Force over Bloodlust. Honestly, as an Ele, I’m too squishy for Bloodlust to stay up long enough to be greater than force. Plus Force is another damage modifier so it actually gives more than 5% damage.
Those are suggestions, but overall, I think this build nails the basics for a staff build.
I know we’re eventually going to get more Elite Specializations in the future, but I’d actually stop playing Ele for awhile over this.
We NEED a real melee weapon and dagger (in PvE) is pretty much used for 3 abilities. Focus does the majority of the work. Scepter is only good with the Focus AND a Lightning hammer build.
I’d at least like more options where we need them, not where we’re good. Offhands are fine. They fill everything they need to and then some. Especially be ticked off now that they released the perfect sword for my Ele (the Gallant one).9
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