Guild Wars 2

I know this was a problem that people had talked about previously, but my impression was that it was fixed. I just tested it out on a dummy though and the duration of my bleed did not increase by 33% with the Lingering Curse trait. This did not happen whether I had, or did not have, the hemophilia trait.

Any ideas on this? Is this still bugged or am I doing something obviously wrong?

So here is my two cents.

John has even stated, and I completely agree 100%, that thieves are supposed to be the slippery class in the game, and so have the highest mobility and escape skills. For the most part they have done well to give Thieves abilities to get out of trouble. Because of this they have given them low armor/hp because they are about not been detected, and evading attacks in the first place, the emphasis is not to be hit. Warriors on the other hand are supposed to tank through the damage while giving that damage back to you, and hence have higher armor, and HP. Both styles increase survivability…one via escapes, stealths etc, and one via endurance and armor.

However, you cannot give the thief a large array of escape abilities and ALSO give them abilities that can hit for19k. Someone in WvW last night got one shotted for this much by a thief. Now even if that isn’t true they still can down someone in a few hits, and yet, because of their escape abilities the other class is lucky to get one or two shots on them. A thief can extend out a fight for a long time if they know how to use their escape abilities so why give them such huge burst dps. On top of that thieves also have high dmg skills that are extremely mobile, so the other class has difficulty escaping. I don’t mind this so much, but combined with such high burst dps it’s a problem, and needs to be toned down. At least with warriors they become immobile with their biggest damage dealers and so they have to be smart and a good player to know when to use them.

Undeadkemea.4865:

Thank you guys for responding! Nice to see some thoughts from other players!

I agree with Necromancer feeling and playing like a cool class(I liked Necro from Guild Wars 1 but it lacked the fluid feel it has in GW2, much more standing still :P)

But to Frizz, and I really hope you get to read this:

I have been playing Guardian for about 400 hours and thief around 150-180…I enjoy them a lot but there was still something missing for my taste. About the Thief I can openly tell you that I have not tried everything with builds, but with Guardian I have tried a lot and I actually find him more boring because of how easy I can kill people with it.

Necromancer is a hard cookie to play well, same as with Thief. I will not delete the other characters because they are my crafters xD Got Guard and Thief on 400 weapon, jewel, armor and cooking xD
Eventually a fourth character will step up to finish leatherworking and huntsman

I want to thank you guys again for taking the time to read my problem, ponder about it and reply! And you Frizz, thank you aswell for the exceptionally long reply and being open!

I hear ya. As I said I don’t know you, and only you can know what you like:) But I am going to reiterate my point just to be clear. If you are bored with the Guardian, and simply do not like it, then I think you have a valid reason to change classes. But you did and you changed to Thief, then ranger, and now Necro. Thief is such an interesting and cool class to play. Also, the fact you played an Assassin really does suggest you may like this class. You already have it at 80!!!! Think about it.

Now here is my point. Similar to you I got my Necro to 80 and played it for at least 500 hours before I started to want some kind of stimulation or feel I am getting rewarded. In other words I was bored. So I rerolled an Ele and started getting that stimulation and reward from levelling a new alt and getting all the satisfaction from learning that new class. And trust me I thought this class was the bees knees until I played on this for a few hundred hours at 80. So like you I found my chosen class boring, and unrewarding, and wanted to reroll. I feel this is a continuous pattern for most people and explains the whole altaholic thing.

However, I made a decision that rather than keep leveling new alts I was going to learn one class inside and out, and I chose Necro only because it was my original and I like DOT based classes historically. So I started theorycrafting, testing on dummies, practising dueling styles with the elites in the mists. I suddenly felt absolutely no desire to play another class. I started to be stimulated and rewarded by the learning process itself and as I played in WvW and SPvP I started to see that work paying off. Classes I once found difficult (esp Mesmers) I started to destroy. The more I find out the more I want to learn. It’s a great feeling.

So I guess what I am suggesting you do is try picking a lvl 80 (my bet would be on the Thief), and learn the kitten out of it in all respects. Take notes on what skills do what dmg, what skills CC, what skills are good for escape, what are there cooldowns. Start practising on the elites and develop rotations. IE I have a rotation for maximum bleed stacks at close range, and at a distance, I also have a rotation for getting an opponent stacked with bleeds while keeping them constantly chilled, or crippled. I know when what skill is coming off CD, and I know what skills I can use and when, because of the work and practise I have put in. I havn’t even started theorycrafting different builds or weapon sets yet because I still have so much to learn on my current build. It is such a rewarding endeavour, and I triple dare you to try it for at least two weeks. Just spend an hour a day (or whatever time you have) on just practising or theory crafting. Write everything you find out down in Word so you can use it as a reference for later.

Next I plan on playing alts ONLY for the sole purpose of finding their weakenesses so I can squish them on my necro. I will never level them to 80 I will just play them in SPvP. Anyway so much to do I don’t have time for a serious alt. Also I am watching other people play (even different classes as you still pick stuff up), reading on he forums etc etc.

So hopefully you can see what I am saying. If you do decide to do it I would love to hear how you find it. Msg me ingame so we can chat about it if you like.

MysticoN.5068:

I was thinking more for WvW mainly and some PvE. Im kinda new to this class, it was the first class i rolled at release but i jumped over to Guardian when i was lvl 30. Now i have dinged 80 on my guardian and found out that WvW was my thing i whent back to necro.

I havent played my guardian after i dinged 80 :/

How much con power is needed for bleed to tick for 100? Think my bleed is around 75 now. My goal was to focus mainly on power (DD) and have DoT more to finish ppl off (and i do love my Epidemic to much not to use it)

For me I wouldn’t settle for less than 100 per tick but I want to be a full condi build as that is my playstyle. For SPvP the carrion amulet (the one that replaces precision with power) has the same amount of condition dmg so your tick dmg should be the same. I checked for WvW and the Carrion armor has the same Condi dmg as the armor I am using, it just replaces precision with power (once again). So carrion armor would seem a good choice if you want to go power and have condi dmg.

lettucemode.3789:

Frizz.6704:

Aga.8641:

For PvP, it’s not. Toughness is too important for a necro to lose. As a necro you don’t want to think about the raw damage that you do, you want to be thinking about staying alive for as long as possible to apply as many conditions as you can, let thieves/warriors/mesmers worry about the raw damage.

I saw someone on Twitch TV last night who was effective as a power/condi build. It is viable in PvP. Although I personally tend to agree with your reasoning for why not to drop toughness for reasons I have already stated. .

It was Powerr, the thief/necro for PZ.

Yes. He had big problems with survivability though. I still prefer a full condi spec but the power hybrid was still viable.

Dual.8953:

I’d say it can help you practice the class and become well accustomed to it through experience, but on the flipside being elite demands way more then knowing yourself. On the other hand, playing multiple classes can hamper your progression with one class, but you’ll get a better understanding of other’s class’ strengths, weaknesses and tendancies faster by multi-classing. Another factor is teamwork, how well do you work with and communicate with others.

Well that is exactly my thoughts too. Maybe the best balance would be to play alts 10% of the time in order to understand their weaknesses.

Bong.6238:

play ever class -> choose 2 you like -> stick to them

I’m really wanting to open a dialogue on the subject and see what people think. I’m not really asking for advise per se as to what I should do.

Aga.8641:

For PvP, it’s not. Toughness is too important for a necro to lose. As a necro you don’t want to think about the raw damage that you do, you want to be thinking about staying alive for as long as possible to apply as many conditions as you can, let thieves/warriors/mesmers worry about the raw damage.

I saw someone on Twitch TV last night who was effective as a power/condi build. It is viable in PvP. Although I personally tend to agree with your reasoning for why not to drop toughness for reasons I have already stated. .

Just wanted peoples thoughts on this.

It seems to me that in the MMO’s I have played the most elite and top tier players were those that almost exclusively focused their efforts on a particular class. Obviously, most have a second alt, but I am saying a very large proportion of their time would be spent on their chosen profession. These guys also seem to be very robust to patch nerfs since they compensate with skill.

So the advantages are obvious. These guys are probably spending a lot of time and effort learning about strategies, builds, tactics, skills etc which takes them from been good to been at the top.

On the other hand, I can see an argument could be made that if you play a number of classes you are going to learn different playstyles, and will know how to counteract them.

Anyway, was wondering what people thought about this.

Undeadkemea.4865:

Hey guys!

As the title says, I would really like some help with choosing a main profession because I really am unable to pick at this very moment, which saddens me because I would like a permanent character to stick by(someone to grow old with….ha…ha…ha? xD)

Nurgle Priest Thor from Far Shiverpeaks server signing off

I really like your philosophy and I think you will find that elite players are those that stick to a class and learn it well rather than flip flopping. I am like you I want to stick to a class and stick by it.

There is a lot of QQ in the Necro forums and I certainly do not have any experience with an axe as I am all about conditions. I like DOT classes. Necro has bugs but it is certainly not as bad as people say it is. I have no problems at all against thieves, guardians or warriors. My suspicion is that many people don’t play this class how it should be. I’m not saying that the Necro is without it’s problems, but that in many cases it is highly exaggerated.

I love my Necro, feel I am very effective with it, and I only got to this position because I stuck with it and did a lot of testing, reading, practising to try to figure out the most efficient way to run the build. Hence the reason why one SHOULD stick to a class. Patches will come and go and so will the strengths of classes per patch, but if you know your class well, you will become robust to said patches as you will still know how to utilise that class.

However, in terms of the profession you have chosen, and I don’t know you, I feel you are simply not giving thief or guardian an honest attempt. Everyone hits a block at lvl 80 – you just played your class for 80 levels and of course new classes will feel more fun and exciting. I have a sneaky feeling this is the case for your Necro. I can guarantee you said the same things about your Guardian, then your thief, and then your ranger (maybe not ranger since you have stopped). If you liked your Assasssin then my gut tells me you should go with Thief. Thief is an amazing class, and most people suck at it, but good players….wow they kick kitten You have a lot of great skills and builds to pick from, and talk about mobility. My suggestion to you is pick between your level 80s, decide that is your class (delete the others so all temptation is gone), and begin reading, theory crafting, practising rotations etc etc. Write notes on your discoveries. At end game that becomes the rewarding part for me (rather than play a new class), and you will excel in your class in the process!!

I say this because I had the same conundrum as you. I couldn’t decide between Ele and Necro and had both at lvl 80. I was also leveling up a ranger. But it wasn’t until I deleted my Ele, and focused on improving on my Necro that I felt happy about my class choice. The reward stopped been novelty (new shiny buttons and skills) and about trying out new things, and learning the subtleties and seeing that pay off in sPvP and WvW.

Good luck.

MysticoN.5068:

Just wondering if anyone is running a con/power hybrid build. Im aiming for bleed doing 100 pr tick and find a balance between crit/power and toughness or vit.

Oddly enough I just did some testing on this last night. So here is the deal. I was testing using SPvP so will take it from that perspective.

When you swap out the Rabid for the Carrion amulet (i.e swapping crit/tough for Vit/Power) you see a large drop in crit rate (obviously), and you do a lot more damage with your power attacks. Your DS hits a lot harder. All your direct attacks do almost double the amount of damage that they did before. Sounds great except for the fact that they don’t really do that much damage anyway. For example, Necrotic Grasp hits for about 500 as opposed to 300 without the extra power.

Here is why I would stay full condi with the higher crit rate. Firstly, because my crit % sits at 50% every second attack I use hits for the same amount as if I had the extra power. Secondly, I use the Sigil of Bleeding (is that the name?), anyway – the one that gives you a 60% chance to stack more bleeds on a critical hit. I tested it last night on dummies and in nearly all cases that I critically hit I stacked extra bleeds. BEcause my bleeds hit for 106, and last 14 secs, then I am doing 1400k dmg PER BLEED. This adds up to be a significantly more amount of damage, than if you are relying on extra damage on half of your (not very powerful) power attacks.

So in short it is viable, it would be more viable if you utilised DS more, which you can’t if you go condi/power because all your points will be spent in the top two tiers of the tree. But I still feel you get more bang for you buck with a full condi build.

The last factor to consider is the gear that gives crit plus cond dmg has toughness vs gear that gives power has vitality. In my opinion, a Necro’s worst nightmare is heavy burst damage. Try to draw out a long fight with a Necro (i.e Guardians etc) and your going to die. Toughness is better equipped at dealing with this burst damage, whereas vitality is better for a class that can’t deal well with conditions. Well a Necro has plenty of ways to get rid of conditions, thus I’m not sure if vitality is the better stat here. Although, it does increase HP in DS. Again, power/vitality seems to be a great combo if you want to getter better use out of DS, but this won’t work if you put your points to increase power/condition duration in the necro tree as you will have no points left to make the most out of DS. I would rather have the extra trait points in DS and use the few skills I use more frequently ( chill + bleed, & fear) than be able to use all the skills, but can’t use them as often.

Hope all that rambling makes sense.

When I first started playing the Necro I used the focus for the chill also. After awhile I tried dagger, and at first I hated it! But with dagger in your offhand you get to transfer your conditions, and you get three stacks of bleeds, which really adds up. Thing is you don’t really need the focus because with Sceptor you have a cripple + bleed, then pop into DS and chill + bleed, then you have your sceptor chill + bleed off CD again, then go into staff and Bleed them followed by your poisen + chill, then DS again (chill + Bleed), then rinse and repeat. PLUS you have two fears you can use. So you should really have them slowed most of the time anyway? But the dagger allows you to stack a LOT more bleeds and transfer conditions which I prefer. But then again I just like conditions.

“Necro’s are good, people just expect too much”

Actually, I have heard that..from me. Too many whiners in the Necro forum.

gamefreak.5673:

Frizz thats fine and all but I cannot pull anything. Heck I can barely keep then in range if they are smart.

I see this problem all the time in SPvP and WvW. Necro’s think because they are robust they should run in the midst of things, but because you don’t have escape abilities this is the last thing you should be doing. You need to be unnoticed on the sides dot’ing people, and spreading the conditions. You don’t pull them they will HAVE to come to you or you will eventually load them with so much conditions they will die. Now that gives you a big advantage. You can set yourself up in a position that suits you. You can put marks around yourself to break and thieves out of stealth if they come to you.

In sPVP I rarely will be with the zerg but will be on the outside, at maximum range, dotting and AOE’ing and then spreading it to the group. When someone does decide to come and get me by the time they have made their way through all my marks I lay in front of them on their journey they are pretty much toast. And it is at this point you will see the survivability of the Necro because now you have set up a situation where they have had to leave the pack and come to you and it’s one on one and generally a Necro will do very well. IF you feel like you are losing you simply bait them along as you walk ever closer to your friends (who remember you should be on the outside of) and they will help finish them off. Because you have DS etc you should easily be able to survive that long.

Anyway hope this helps. Works for me. You just need to remember you are still a mage and you need to keep that backline mage mentality. Necro is a finesse class, and I love it. On my Ele if I get caught out, especially by a thief, I die in seconds. It’s a whole different playstyle, and I would hate to see the two merged into one.

I think people have to bare in mind that what they think isn’t what everyone thinks. Just because YOU think Necro is boring doesn’t mean it is to everyone. I LOVE the condition build for the Necro. I love been able to transfer them on to other players, spreading them with Epidemic, and I love the survivability. Yes there are no escape tools but that means you need to be more aware of your position NOT get more escape skills, since Ele’s have very low HP and die very fast if caught. Necro’s can last long enough to drag a lot of people back to their team mates. In other words if you know where your team mates are you shouldn’t be straying too far from them.

I think Anet has it spot on in what they want the Necro to be. It’s about conditions, attrition and survivability. If that is not what you want to play, and you find it boring compared to an Ele, then their is your answer really……..go play an Ele.

I know about that bug. That wasn’t what I was referring too. I mean when I activate the signet to transfer my conditions to the foe, even when they are in range, sometimes it doesn’t transfer them to my target? Is this a bug also or is their some skill that prevents me from doing this. OR am I imagining this?

I could be wrong here but sometimes when I activate this skill, even if the enemy is within range, it will not remove the conditions. When I tested this skill on dummies it works even if I am facing away, and so ii can’t be that I am not facing my opponent.

Either I am just mistaken here, or can someone else tell me what other factors may stop plague signet from removing conditions on to an opponent.

Please can we only have people reply who have an informed answer, and why you think that? A good discussion on this would be appreciated.

Unless I am wrong, then it will be pretty short discussion.

Kryptorchid.7620:

@Frizz

You really should just edit out your last paragraph.

“It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt.” Mark Twain

Please take your own advice. Your comment had nothing of relevance.

Ok so as a New Zealander, now living in North America, and participating in the WvW action both before, and after, the patch came in I think I have a unique perspective.

Firstly, when I did get into EB on SOR, after the patch, we lost hours of work because SOS got in first and took the SOR tower, and then spawn camped us for about an hour. Everyone was complaining on our side how unfair it was. It wasn’t until Novus, a commander, had captured many many supply camps and keeps that SOS realised what was going on. I saw in chat how they wanted the main force to keep you busy at the SOR tower, so you wouldn’t come and stop us while we captured everything else, and it worked. So this argument that we suddenly had more players on after the patch is completely and utterly wrong!

Secondly, blaming Oceanics for losing the game is also lame. I am in NA (and far far east) and I came back into WvW to continue the fight. Given that you would have had the whole of central and western USA on a reasonable time I really doubt it was a case of a change in shift. Furthemore, The internet speed is so much slower in NZ/OZ and so it must have been the NA players logging on straight after the patch, not the Oceanics, which resulted in the initial demise of SOS.

It sounds to me like PRXKV.1296’s guild just wants to be on the winning side. Left HoD when things got tough rather than helping their server, and now playing the blame game because the server they moved to isn’t working out any better.

The fact that you can’t 2 v 1 people is a good thing. It shows that the game is balanced.

Better to be a live coward than a dead hero…

Ok so I had the same bug but solved the problem by standing on top of the door and then opening it and that works. Couldn’t open it when standing in front of it. So if anyone has the same problem then I suggest trying that.

But I do agree that this is a huge problem. At level 75 and closing in on 80, for some people to have had to weight for 11 days to be able to finish the quest chain is absolutely inexcusable. The developer should have, at least, said something by now. Really dissapointing.

I think Proeliator brings up some good points. I am one of those, I like warlock types, so have stuck to the Necro despite it’s flaws. I like the class. I wish we could be rewarded for sticking to a class, but there is no incentive to do so, so in this game rerolling is probably far easier than in others where you would have to relevel a class from scratch. It would be interesting to look at WvW figures as they should be more robust to such changes (yes I am collecting stats for that now).

Anyway, I think Guardian is picked due to it’s incredible survivability. People tend to go for classes that just won’t die (that is when you hear comments like “ouch that tickles” etc – makes them feel big), or classes that do massive damage. But I think the classes need to be straightforward too. The Engineer is incredibly powerful, but also is harder to learn to achieve that, AND as Pro pointed out, it is not that archetypical class people like to play in RPG games.

Some really interesting points made, which I don’t think are mutually exclusive. I don’t doubt that the warrior/rogue/mage archetypes are more often picked, but Elementalist (which is mage) is one of the lowest in popularity, and this is certainly not the case for PVE or WvW. Thus, there is no coincidence that this also happens to be a very fragile class (although IMO I think it is very powerful when played correctly). Also, the observation that the two classes that showed the biggest drops, were also the classes with nerfs, indicates that FOTM rerolling was occurring, however the observation that Mesmer remained in second place could either be interpreted as FOTM rerolling is not as influential on stats as we thought OR Mesmer is still pretty powerful.

Thoughts?

No that must have been someone else. But I remember the post. I was doing this while they posted it.

Well I’m glad we are getting some good discussion out of this it makes the effort worthwhile!

Well psyt I actually countered that too. I wouldn’t take many samples if there were only a few battlegrounds currently active (i.e earlier in the day), and more when there were more active.

So one day I decided to start looking at the class distribution in 8 v 8 sPvP matches. Just as I was about to finish the new patch hit and so I thought I would continue and see how the class distribution changed with the Mesmer/Ranger nerfs.

So what I did……….whenever I entered into a sPvP match I would note down the class distribution not including myself. Also, I would never retake the class distribution from the same group in consecutive matches as the same people tend to remain and would bias the results. So I think I did everything I could to make the results as unbiased as possible.

Pre-patch I got a total for all classes of (N =) 1186, and post patch 1165. Here is the class distribution (in decreasing order) as a percentage of that total (rounded to one decimal place).

Pre Patch
1. Thief – 21.4
2. Mesmer – 16.8
3. Warrior – 13.3
4. Ranger – 11.6
5. Guardian – 10.5
6. Necromancer – 10.2
7. Elementalist – 8.1
8. Engineer – 7.7

Post Patch
1. Thief – 22.7
2. Mesmer – 14.6
3. Warrior – 13.9
4 Guardian – 11.7
5 Necromancer – 10.4
6. Ranger – 10.2
7. Elementalist – 8.7
8 Engineer – 7.7

So in terms of numbers the Mesmer has the biggest drop, but is still the second most popular class. Rangers also showed a fairly big drop and now are one of the least popular classes. The two main classes that seem to have picked up the numbers are the Guardian and Thief with all other classes remaining pretty consistent between pre and post patch.

Yes I have too much time on my hands.

No way when and where was this? Do Jade own everything? Man I am so glad I left Jade..I knew this would happen.

Easy solution would be if you are in a downed state and log off you die. So when you come back on you still have to repair and the other character who kills you gets the reward.

There is an extremely easy way to test whether the ‘Titan Alliance’ was the winning factor or whether it was the Zerg. The Titan Alliance has moved to Blackgate, the Zerg has moved to JQ, and so in a few weeks if JQ is an no.1 then clearly it was not the ‘Titan Alliance’ that was winning the match ups. The titan alliance was merely a catalyst for driving the zerg off HOD.

In any case….JQ is very boring right now. Anyone know of any lower tier servers with a really strong community who need more players….I was thinking Crystal Desert as I often see posts from them?

Good job!!!! This is completely uncool, the guy definitely needs to be perm banned!

Yes I agree it was pretty much the strongest must-have trait we had. If this is not a big I really don’t like this change. I could completely understand that Necro’s didnt stack conditions as fast as other classes because we had skills like plague signet. But if they are going to remove our ability to transfer or remove conditions then they need to allow us to stack conditions faster.

Before the patch plague signet removed conditions from you regardless of whether an enemy player was near you. The only difference was that no one would get your conditions if there was no enemy player. But post patch unless I have someone targetted the conditions are not removed. What I am unsure of is whether this is now working as intended or if this is bugged? It’s a pretty vital skill and I really hope this is not what it is supposed to do.

LonelyReaper.8075:

Frizz.6704:

LonelyReaper.8075:

Braxxus.2904:

Frizz.6704:

You really just proved the point i have been trying to make.

You’re welcome?

;)

Hell it’s true, and only silly silly people could try and argue that “phantasm” builds are basically for being lazy with gameplay. It’s like necro’s from AoC, or beastmaster RanGARZ from early on in the devil’s MMO.

“Summon programs, have them fight, I got better kitten to do with my time”

XD

such simple mind, you just did the same in all aspect of shatter build. Run and let your AI do all the dmg and hide.

Phantasm build need more Phantasm up for good dps = less clones = less visual confusion. and low shatter dmg
Shatter build need more clones or Phantasm up which does not matter,(so end more clones as they recharge faster) = more visual confusion + some consistant dmg and then end with high burst from shatter

Playing an AI class and deem yourself not using AI is like a cat calling itself a dog.

He isn’t really disagreeing with you, I think he is trying to point out that you can still do well on a Mesmer with little effort…something that is impossible with other classes. Thats not to say the class isn’t hard..it’s just easy to do well with for a bad player…but maybe hard to master.

Its not really becuz of the phantasm i pointed out in my other post and it not nice that he like his build and start placing other build down. What make mesmer so easy for noob to utilize is because of the survivability that a mesmer have with its screen clutter and counters. I am also surprise that you say noob use phantasm build more than shatter build, which is quite hard to differentiate for the masses which can’t even tell apart which is the real 1. Shatter build is more reliable and your phantasm still hit hard and shatter scale too well with the glass cannon stats most mesmer uses that is power,pricision, crit dmg. Thus, i dont think the noob are using phantasm build as it require more positioning and timing than shatter to fully utilize it.

I see more phantasm builds out there than shatter builds.

Senai.1804:

Frizz.6704:

Senai.1804:

Frizz.6704:

You really just proved the point i have been trying to make.

Not really. It just proves you can roll bad players with no effort. You really think a mesmer can go watch tv and still win against good players? I have no clue how fast you think we can pump out those phantasms but this “nerf” only added 4 seconds more.

You just have to understand that It is incredibly frustrating that bad players pick an easy 1 v 1 class where they are able to just mass produce clones that do the damage for them!! This is not a fair mechanic and pisses off your average player. Hence, the sentiment on here of….just learn to play. I agree this tactic wouldn’t work on a good player.

Don’t put yourself in a 1v1 situation then. I see no reason as to why you would ever be in one seeing as there is no world pvp. Always stay in groups, it is the basics of pvp.

Your missing the point though. I always stick with the group. But everyone else shouldn’t have to adapt their behaviour in order to deal with Mesmers. If that is the argument than it definitely proves Mesmers are OP. [/quote]

No. The game isn’t balance around 1v1 and no one has to adapt to anything. You never, ever go at it solo. It is basic pvp. A soldier isn’t going to complain “it isn’t fair” if he runs out onto the battlefield by himself and gets shot. If he does, he is stupid.

There’s a reason the military always moves in platoons. Because trying to be a lone wolf hero gets you killed.
[/quote]

I mean I agree with you that no one should run alone, and I don’t in pvp. But that seems like a seperate argument. Mesmers are still too strong in their current state. Well post 7 Oct anyway.

etherfreeze.6834:

Frizz.6704:

etherfreeze.6834:

Yes, mesmers are strong in spvp. Yes, they excel in 1v1 situations. They might even have an advantage over some classes given a comparable skill level, but despite losing to mesmers from time to time, or getting wrecked by good mesmers, I never felt helpless against them. On my ele I can clear their illusions while doing moderate damage to them. The elite elemental summon helps with this of course. Thieves on the other hand, have too much spike. Unfortunately pistol whip isn’t really the root of the problem. Things like quickness (an inherently stupid mechanic since only a few classes have access to it, not all of which suffer the same consequences for using it), assassin’s signet in conjunction with an already huge single hit burst from backstab landing numbers upward of 15k, and the insane spammability of the highest damage skills due to the initiative mechanic.

It really depends on your class. My main is a Necro and Mesmers are the worst class for me to face, and thieves are pretty easy to kill. However, on my Ele I agree with you that Mesmers are not a problem and thieves are.

Obviously my opinion is skewed by the class I play, and admittedly I have only dabbled in other classes to learn their mechanics so I can counter them better on my ele. However, while playing thief, using a cookie cutter build, it just felt too easy. The initiative mechanic makes it so missing an important skill is no big deal. You can backstab frequently, spam heartseeker. Never mind throwing in quickness. I think it’s strange that squishy classes like elementalist and necro don’t have access to the same high risk glass cannon option. The only skills that can even compare on elementalist are fire grab and churning earth. Fire grab is predictable, easy to miss, easy to dodge, and has a very large cooldown. Churning earth has a casting time so long that it is not even worth using in a 1v1 unless you lead with in on an unsuspecting target with teleport. Both of these skills can net at most 8k dmg with full glass cannon and crit. That’s half the damage I’ve seen on some backstabs. Thieves not only get more damage, but damage that is way more spammable. On top of that, permanent gap closing. I can beat thieves in 1v1 situations, but I imagine they aren’t very good thieves. Maybe I’m not a very good elementalist, but even with a full tank build sacrificing all damage, a “good” thief can still take me out in seconds. If I blow all my utilities to CC them or create some distance, they close the gap with anything from steal, shadowstep, scorpion wire, heartseeker. You name it.

No you are not a bad player..thieves destroy Ele’s if they open on them. I think the problem with Thieves (initiative mechanic) and Mesmers (mass produced clones) is they are so easy to do well with for a bad player. That isn’t to say they won’t get destroyed by good players…but they will still do much better than if they play an Ele or Necro for example. Thieves and Mesmers are easy to do well with…hard to master.

LonelyReaper.8075:

Frizz.6704:

You really just proved the point i have been trying to make.

Not really. It just proves you can roll bad players with no effort. You really think a mesmer can go watch tv and still win against good players? I have no clue how fast you think we can pump out those phantasms but this “nerf” only added 4 seconds more.

You just have to understand that It is incredibly frustrating that bad players pick an easy 1 v 1 class where they are able to just mass produce clones that do the damage for them!! This is not a fair mechanic and pisses off your average player. Hence, the sentiment on here of….just learn to play. I agree this tactic wouldn’t work on a good player. [/quote]

Wait for shatter build mass screen clutter that hits harder than phantasm build that wrack average players becuz they don’t noe how to safe their dodge or understand that sword#3 is a condition not a stun as a lack of brain power to understand that killing phantasm is what kills a phantasm build , not bursting the mesmer.[/quote]

I don’t have a problem with Shatter builds myself but I think you are correct.

Senai.1804:

Frizz.6704:

You really just proved the point i have been trying to make.

Not really. It just proves you can roll bad players with no effort. You really think a mesmer can go watch tv and still win against good players? I have no clue how fast you think we can pump out those phantasms but this “nerf” only added 4 seconds more.

You just have to understand that It is incredibly frustrating that bad players pick an easy 1 v 1 class where they are able to just mass produce clones that do the damage for them!! This is not a fair mechanic and pisses off your average player. Hence, the sentiment on here of….just learn to play. I agree this tactic wouldn’t work on a good player. [/quote]

Don’t put yourself in a 1v1 situation then. I see no reason as to why you would ever be in one seeing as there is no world pvp. Always stay in groups, it is the basics of pvp.[/quote]

Your missing the point though. I always stick with the group. But everyone else shouldn’t have to adapt their behaviour in order to deal with Mesmers. If that is the argument than it definitely proves Mesmers are OP.

LonelyReaper.8075:

Braxxus.2904:

Frizz.6704:

You really just proved the point i have been trying to make.

You’re welcome?

;)

Hell it’s true, and only silly silly people could try and argue that “phantasm” builds are basically for being lazy with gameplay. It’s like necro’s from AoC, or beastmaster RanGARZ from early on in the devil’s MMO.

“Summon programs, have them fight, I got better kitten to do with my time”

XD

such simple mind, you just did the same in all aspect of shatter build. Run and let your AI do all the dmg and hide.

Phantasm build need more Phantasm up for good dps = less clones = less visual confusion. and low shatter dmg
Shatter build need more clones or Phantasm up which does not matter,(so end more clones as they recharge faster) = more visual confusion + some consistant dmg and then end with high burst from shatter

Playing an AI class and deem yourself not using AI is like a cat calling itself a dog.

He isn’t really disagreeing with you, I think he is trying to point out that you can still do well on a Mesmer with little effort…something that is impossible with other classes. Thats not to say the class isn’t hard..it’s just easy to do well with for a bad player…but maybe hard to master.

You really just proved the point i have been trying to make.
[/quote]

Not really. It just proves you can roll bad players with no effort. You really think a mesmer can go watch tv and still win against good players? I have no clue how fast you think we can pump out those phantasms but this “nerf” only added 4 seconds more.
[/quote]

You just have to understand that It is incredibly frustrating that bad players pick an easy 1 v 1 class where they are able to just mass produce clones that do the damage for them!! This is not a fair mechanic and pisses off your average player. Hence, the sentiment on here of….just learn to play. I agree this tactic wouldn’t work on a good player.

Braxxus.2904:

LonelyReaper.8075:

Mesmers are full or counters, which work really well 1v1 which make them so powerful. Phantasm feel op because now you have to figure out what the mesmer gonna do to prevent you from doing ur standard macro.

Um…

Phantasm builds didn’t really do anything to make people “figure out” anything tbh. Phantasm is pretty simple to figure out for most people:

Dude summons alot of crap to hide himself
Dude’s AI minions do some burst
Need to drop heavy AOE on Dude AND AI pets

I mean, when you’re talking about “vs noobs” a phantasm build was all about “summon my kitten, then hide until I need to resummon again. collect free kills” in SPvP matches. Hell I used it as my lulz spec for when I was just goofing off glory farming in SPvP cause it let you watch tv or do something else while still “winning fights”.

You really just proved the point i have been trying to make.

Effusion.4831:

Frizz.6704:

Effusion.4831:

Frizz.6704:

Effusion.4831:

Frizz, how pray tell is a mesmer supposed to play without relying on clones and phantasms?

You still have clones etc. They didn’t take them away.

Okay, so shatter builds? You think phantasms were op and mesmers should be playing shatter builds?

I agree with that call.

Alright, it’s just that the way that you were posting made it sound like you though mesmers should be relying on weapon attacks or something. I think building for shatter in pvp is actually much stronger than building for phantasms anyway.

No I think Mesmers should be able to use their illusions etc. I like that about them. But the way it stands is they produce them too fast. They should think about when they pop them out. I still think good Mesmers will still be good in PvP. The PVE thing I don’t know….

Senai.1804:

Effusion.4831:

Frizz.6704:

Effusion.4831:

Frizz, how pray tell is a mesmer supposed to play without relying on clones and phantasms?

You still have clones etc. They didn’t take them away.

Okay, so shatter builds? You think phantasms were op and mesmers should be playing shatter builds?

Yes, this is exactly what people have been saying.

It’s hilarious people are complaining about things like phantasms when they do terrible damage and can be 1 shotted while shatter build is what;s actually killing people.

People have no idea what it is that’s killing them and just like to complain about everything. I’m sure if they remove illusions completely people will still tell mesmers it was a needed “nerf”.

You gotta understand though that it can be incredibly frustrating having to fight against a skilless player who rolled Mesmer and just farts out clones etc and wins …and they didn’t actually do anything other than mass produce clones. Now i know about dodging, AOE’s, and the difference between shatter builds and clones. But Mesmers are without a doubt the easiest 1 v 1 spec to do well with. The number of Mesmers has increased a LOT in warzones and there is a reason for it. Now for people like yourself who actually want to play a Mesmer, and didn’t just pick it because it was OP at dueling, then you are getting a rough deal. But you must at least acknowledge that the problem exists and it ruins the enjoyment for other players?

LonelyReaper.8075:

Frizz.6704:

LonelyReaper.8075:

The problem Frizz is you don’t play a mesmer, or main 1 i guess( assumption). So i will explain , yes phantasm is our main source of dmg, pvper don’t like fighting AI. Mesmer is one and only class that uses illusion(pets) that need good aoe to clear them and make them unusable( which is a problem). So let me ask you why do you bring a break stun utility in your utility slot. Becuz it is to counter stun-lock burst. So now, when it comes to mesmer, why don’t you have a aoe skill with you or kill the illusion, then lots of reason pop up like too much hassle to why a skill to counter 1 class.

Lonely, I see your point in terms of PVE and I think it is a valid one. I shouldn’t have dismissed your complaint on that outright and for that I apologise. But in terms of PvP I believe that the increased cooldown was needed as mesmers were cloning themselves so fast that even after an AOE you would have another three mesmers looking back at you. It just means that Mesmers are going to have to think about when they make their clones and use them wisely, and I think this is a good idea, because people should be making intelligent choices about when to use their skills rather than mass producing them. I feel your main complaint is with PVE though and I understand it is not fun playing Mesmer for that….

Thats the point i am fighting for! But i too still feel that increasing the cd on phantasm will not make it better, now every1 will use shatter build which shred better than phantasm build vs 1v1. The class is too complex to balance, they really did a bad job on implementing such a wonderful idea.

Shatter build is going to be a problem you and Effusion are probably right on that.

Senai.1804:

Frizz.6704:

Senai.1804:

Frizz.6704:

Senai.1804:

Mammoth.1975:

Senai.1804:

Stop taking advice given by bad players to heart then. If you don’t lose to mesmers you know “to dodge” is not a valid argument regardless. If you don’t lose to mesmers you are agreeing other people just need to play better.

‘L2P’ is just as pathetic an argument. I don’t lose to mesmers because the build I’m running atm is a hard counter. Everyone should build to counter mesmers right? The only role on a team is ‘mesmer hunter’.

Honestly, I don’t care if mesmers are kittening supermen, I’ll just play one. The nerf/buff/balance kitten is irrelevant to me. It’s the inanity of the arguments being used that irritates me. You can’t have a decent discussion on balance on this board because it’s jampacked with forumwarrior sophistry. We could provide productive feedback here, instead it’s a bunch of whining children who can only be ignored, and given an occasional cookie to shut them up for a while.

You come to these forums for constructive criticism? Why? Do you enjoy hurting yourself?

This is a classic example of someone who knows they have lost the argument and are now trying to change the topic. Why don’t you either admit he is right or come up with a good criticism of what he said rather than trolling?

What argument? When have i presented anything that disagrees with this person’s points? Why so defensive?

I’m afraid you are coming across as defensive.

You’re implying that i’m trying to change the subject because i “lost” some argument that didn’t take place.

y u mad brah?

lol yeah I’m really mad that you are losing an argument I am not in. It’s ok we can drop this now.

Effusion.4831:

Frizz.6704:

Effusion.4831:

Frizz, how pray tell is a mesmer supposed to play without relying on clones and phantasms?

You still have clones etc. They didn’t take them away.

Okay, so shatter builds? You think phantasms were op and mesmers should be playing shatter builds?

I agree with that call.

LonelyReaper.8075:

The problem Frizz is you don’t play a mesmer, or main 1 i guess( assumption). So i will explain , yes phantasm is our main source of dmg, pvper don’t like fighting AI. Mesmer is one and only class that uses illusion(pets) that need good aoe to clear them and make them unusable( which is a problem). So let me ask you why do you bring a break stun utility in your utility slot. Becuz it is to counter stun-lock burst. So now, when it comes to mesmer, why don’t you have a aoe skill with you or kill the illusion, then lots of reason pop up like too much hassle to why a skill to counter 1 class.

Lonely, I see your point in terms of PVE and I think it is a valid one. I shouldn’t have dismissed your complaint on that outright and for that I apologise. But in terms of PvP I believe that the increased cooldown was needed as mesmers were cloning themselves so fast that even after an AOE you would have another three mesmers looking back at you. It just means that Mesmers are going to have to think about when they make their clones and use them wisely, and I think this is a good idea, because people should be making intelligent choices about when to use their skills rather than mass producing them. I feel your main complaint is with PVE though and I understand it is not fun playing Mesmer for that….

Effusion.4831:

Frizz, how pray tell is a mesmer supposed to play without relying on clones and phantasms?

You still have clones etc. They didn’t take them away.

Senai.1804:

Frizz.6704:

Senai.1804:

Mammoth.1975:

Senai.1804:

Stop taking advice given by bad players to heart then. If you don’t lose to mesmers you know “to dodge” is not a valid argument regardless. If you don’t lose to mesmers you are agreeing other people just need to play better.

‘L2P’ is just as pathetic an argument. I don’t lose to mesmers because the build I’m running atm is a hard counter. Everyone should build to counter mesmers right? The only role on a team is ‘mesmer hunter’.

Honestly, I don’t care if mesmers are kittening supermen, I’ll just play one. The nerf/buff/balance kitten is irrelevant to me. It’s the inanity of the arguments being used that irritates me. You can’t have a decent discussion on balance on this board because it’s jampacked with forumwarrior sophistry. We could provide productive feedback here, instead it’s a bunch of whining children who can only be ignored, and given an occasional cookie to shut them up for a while.

You come to these forums for constructive criticism? Why? Do you enjoy hurting yourself?

This is a classic example of someone who knows they have lost the argument and are now trying to change the topic. Why don’t you either admit he is right or come up with a good criticism of what he said rather than trolling?

What argument? When have i presented anything that disagrees with this person’s points? Why so defensive?

I’m afraid you are coming across as defensive.