Guild Wars 2

Admired.7461:

Silly man, you never hide the face of a Charr.
Everything else should like fine. Use the right colors!

Oh of course. I never have the helmet graphic turned on unless its the HotW one or the charr cultural head pieces (they actually fit and look good). The Arah shoulders just look plain ugly though. They stick up all weird.

Admired.7461:

You’re complaining about the lack of Necromancer-themed gear, really?
Is Arah armor not enough? It’s as Necromancer as you can get since the whole
game freakin’ revolves around our Profession. Even kittenty Trahearne is a Necromancer
before he got his lame kitten sword.

In fact, a lot of Elementalists and Mesmers like to copy us and wear our gear.

Arah gear looks hideous on a charr

I also hate the way the weapons look.

Lidless Eye and Eye of Rodgort, but yeah, no legendaries.

Bhawb.7408:

Nope, tournaments can’t be done cross server, I would assume that sPvP is the same.

I was doing sPvP with someone from FA in my group the other day, but since hes from EU servers, I have no idea if that applies.

Kravick!! come join us for a little bit of Necro laughter before going back to the angry abyss

But the abyss is warm and safe and its too bright outside!

I suppose I could join in on this. At least it would be interesting to see. I still need 30 more wins for my title. :p

Sign me up.

IGN: Iris Ashensoul
NA or EU: NA
Server: Tarnished Coast
Access to Mumble: Yes
Video Capture Capabilities: None. No experience, but if someone is willing to walk me through it, I can try.
Easiest Day for you: Any time after 5pm EST.

carlvinmadarang.4130:

All the sites I checked seem…. lackluster?

You may need to copy and paste these links directly into your browsers URL bar. This website doesn’t play nice with a lot of embedded links.

Typical condition build is going to look like this.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fQUQNArYWjMaJ7pbub07JAJFPf9kiv9O6BxHnMA;TIAjNmlA

Typical Terror build is going to look like this.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fQUQNArYWjMaJ7pbub07JAJFPDd0DiDOZKFqnOA;TIAjNmlA

Both builds can use either Rabid, Shamans, Carrion, or Apothecaries gear, but most commonly used at 80 is Rabid. Can’t really get rabid until then, unfortunately.

Runes will be either 6x necromancer, 6x undead, or 2x krait/centaur/afflicted depending on what you want. Sigils will almost always be Earth in scepter/staff and corruption in dagger. On armor that doesn’t have precision, use Geomancy sigils instead of Earth.

In PvE just gather up 2-5 NPCs, (practice with 2 NPCs before you start pulling large numbers), use staff 2 and 3 once they’ve clumped up, dodge roll into the group of enemies to trigger the Mark of Blood on dodge and switch to scepter (to trigger sigil of geomancy if you have it), then use Scepter 2, Dagger 5, Blood is Power, Dagger 4 to transfer the self inflected bleeding off of you, Epidemic to spread all those bleed stacks, and then scepter auto attack anything that is still alive.

Vicarious.3047:

Was this thread not about sPvP builds for the necro?

At least that was my impression (since fear duration in WvW shouldn’t matter all that much in such large groups) so when I commented I was solely referring to sPvP warriors.

OP was about fear and how it needs better damage co-efficients. As far as what you quoted, yeah I didn’t read that, so I suppose my reply was out of context then. My fault.

Vicarious.3047:

I was seriously hoping no one would be blind enough to seriously consider suggesting the warrior shout build just so warriors can remove conditions…….

Have you ever actually tried it? I doubt so, cause it’s absolutely horrendous in s/tPvP. Barely adds to survivability aside from the condition removal you’ve sacrificed an entire set of runes and full utility bar to get, and your dps becomes close to ZERO cause warriors have nothing else to get them close enough to deal damage (and rifle/LB are two of the easiest weapons to dodge in the game, unless you suck ofc). Oh yeah, and you can get the shouts to heal, glad I had to give up 30 freaking trait points just to get that 1.5k on each shout, it’ll help me restore my 20-27k health pool in no time!

Also I do use the signet of stamina, I’m so happy I’ve got that ONE condition removal, now I’ll DEFINITELY be able to work my way through the constant applications of slowing condies turning warrior damage output to ZERO……

It is a well known FACT that warriors are horrendous at removing conditions and slowing condies are what breaks the class in tPvP, even the devs themselves have admitted as much (they said if they gave warriors the same condi removal as other classes they’d become an “unstoppable force,” so now we can’t reach any target worth a crap).

But that’s just one of the many reasons I gave up on my warrior in favor of my necro in s/tPvP and far off topic, so I’ll stop there.

But the warrior shout build is absolutely wonderful in WvW. The point is to lock down the other zerg with your hammer while supporting your zerg through shout heals and condition removals. My guild runs a dedicated team of people with this build, along with plague form necromancers, with remarkable success.

In t/sPvP, warriors are in a bit of a bad spot, I will agree. But WvW, they’re awesome. In WvW, yes I have run this build on my warrior. It is amazing. Its not a small group build, so obviously it does poorly in structured, but to say that a warrior can’t do something, when it can, even if it is a niche build, isn’t exactly true. There is also no reason that you can’t use 6x soldier runes in PvE while running FGJ and SIO (which is exactly what I did when I was running TA for gear on my warrior several months ago, poison all over the kitten place in there), unless you’re running a specific build that revolves around a particular rune set. You don’t have to be balls to the wall DPS all the time. But as I said, it does require a sacrifice.

Otaking.4675:

Also, if anything on the necro is something another class complains about at any time, that would mean it’s an actual strength of the class.

I bet you if I statistically compiled all the pvp complaints it would look something like this.

#$# Stealth
#$ Heartseeker Spam
#$# RTL
#$# Mistform
#$# Mesmer Retargeting
#$# What killed me (Hint: time warp!)
#$# Engie Knockdowns
#$# Engie Invulns
#$# Moa
#$# Ranger Conditions
##$ Ranger Pet
#$# P/D thief conditions

And so on and so forth…gee when do we get to anything Necro…

A long time back, I watched a pretty enlightening video on MMO game development, and this was something it covered. It said that at any given time you have a lot of people complaining about certain abilities that different classes possess, and these complaints all happen at relatively the same time (no major game or mechanic changes have occurred within the last 3-6 months), you have yourself some balanced classes. Now if you have everyone pointing at a specific class and it revolves around one particular ability with no other classes being called OP in that manner, then you’ve got a problem. Not saying that something can’t be too powerful, even with multiple “OP” classes, as evidenced by some of the nerfs that have occurred, but they still complain about those skills despite being nerfed.

No one has ever complained about anything necromancers can do as being OP.

Vicarious.3047:

TheMightyAltroll.3485:

or one of the billion condition cures EVERYONE has.

Except warriors.

Not quote true, however they do have to give up a lot to achieve it. Truth be told, the warriors shout heal build is by far the best condition removal spam I’ve ever seen, and it works on up to 5 people at once. They can remove 1 condition every 4-5 seconds if they space out their shouts, but it is a specific build and does require 6x runes of the soldier.

There is also this skill, which I never see warriors use for some reason.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Signet_of_Stamina

Its pretty kitten good for non shout heal builds, especially the passive (+33% endurance regeneration, I would kill to have this signet on my necro, seriously), but the warrior mentality has always been “OMG BALLS 2 DA WALL MAX DPS GUISE EVEN IN PEEVEEPEE!” Its why I don’t post on that forum. A little bit of defense goes a long way, IMO, but no one else over there seems to agree.

Kravick is intelligent and has a lot of good stuff to say most of the time, but he has a serious bitterness to the Necro class at the moment, so you will have to look at what he says through glasses that are tinted to his dislike.

Its not bitterness. I love this class. I’m just capable of seeing the forest for the trees (IE: big picture). I just feel the developers just haven’t taken the time and seriously looked at what they’ve created in the necromancer class. We had a lot of cool ideas in the beginning that were supposed to be necromancer only (where is our confusion we were promised?), but instead got gutted and given to other classes, and their versions function better than ours. The cast timers and cool down rates are also not in line with the other classes abilities as well.

Everyone here agrees that necromancer signets (save Undeath, and people feel tethered to Locust in WvW as its the only way were able to keep up with zergs) are absolute trash. No one in their right mind even uses them. Theres also the imaginary fear that the developers have regarding Death Shroud, and how they’re afraid of how “strong” it makes us (their words, not mine).

Death Shroud looks good on paper, but in reality, it pales in comparison to real mobility and escape mechanics. It doesn’t save us, and it doesn’t prolong a fight other than absorbing maybe 2 or 3 hits. Life Force generation is also a serious problem for non power builds, and has little to no synergy for anything but power builds. How can DS be an intricate part of this class that we’re “always supposed to utilize at all times” when all of its functions are clearly designed with only power builds in mind? Then theres the fact that dagger auto attack is the best LF generating weapon we have, but does more DPS than Life Blast. Why on earth would you want to use DS and purposefully nerf your damage like that? Its completely backwards!

When you sit down and actually start comparing necromancers to another class, and the abilities that they have that mirror ours, you start to see how much better those classes function in those roles. In the case of warriors and thieves, I have first hand experience at the damage output they can bring over a necromancer. Its not that what necromancers do is bad. Its just average. No one ever wants to be average, and no matter how hard you try to push yourself, you just can’t get over that last hump as a necromancer because of imposed limitations. TBH, necromancer has been the fastest class I ever leveled to 80 simply because of Epidemic (which got nerfed pretty hard in PvP), but thats a case of quantity over quality in terms of getting heart quests done.

Then there is me, and according to Dreadlord I run around shooting rainbows up players butts which is quite difficult as a Necro

Yeah, you do this a lot.

• Are they wanted in dungeons and how good are they in them?

No more than rangers. We’re not a class that people seek out for specific encounters or other things.

• Can they dash out a lot of DPS and can they tank well.

Condition specs can AoE rather well, but it doesn’t even come close to the AoE abilities of classes that can cleave (IE: warrior). Our single target DPS leaves much to be desired.

• Last thing. How are they in boss battles, like dragons and stuff.

In typical boss battles, if things ever go bad, I’m almost always one of the last people standing. Doesn’t mean much though, because if everyone else wipes and I’m still alive, there isn’t really anything I can do other than let myself die or reset the fight so the others can revive.

I’d say if there is anything wrong with necromancers, is that this class has been cursed to be average at everything. There isn’t really any one thing we’re the best at. Also, the death shroud mechanic is pretty kittenty if you’re playing anything other than a power build. Even then its not all that great. Even if you trait specifically to use DS as much as possible, its still pretty meh.

I’ve never been turned down from a dungeon because of being a necro

Sadly, this has happened to me. The number of times has actually been relatively small, but it has happened. Once at the very beginning of the game when attempting to do CoF path 1 (this was before they nerfed everything, you really did need 4 warriors to do path 1 back then), a couple of times when attempting to do fractal levels higher than 22 (gets more frequent the higher in fractal level you go), and once when I joined a group to do a CoF speed run. I joined the group with the intention of switching to my warrior, but before I could the group kicked me saying necros don’t have enough DPS to do speed runs.

Someone please lock this thread.

Why would they do that? This thread has a lot of varying view points, and for the most part, all the discussions were civil. Isn’t that the point of a forum?

Sebastian Knight.4736:

I am, however, saving up for Eye of Rodgort, the true Necro “Legendary.”

I totally forgot about that thing. You know, I think I’m going to make one now. I haven’t had a goal to set for myself for a while. This would renew my interest in PvE a little.

Thresher.3049:

I kill tens of thousands of people in wvw because it makes me happy and widely considered a walking war-crime waiting to happen

Oh, so do I, but that doesn’t make you EVIL… does it? o_O

I want one, but nothing speaks “necromancer” to me. I have most of the gifts already finished, but I haven’t settled on a specific legendary yet. I considered Bifrost at one point, however there was a bug months ago where the rainbow effects didn’t work with necromancer particles. I don’t know if that has been fixed yet or not.

‘great and evil’

I know traditional fantasy games portrays necromancy as evil, but in GW necromancers aren’t evil, and the lore behind necromancers in this game describe them as mediums between life and death as well as caretakers and problem solvers that involve death. Evil is also defined as how you use your power in the GW universe, rather than where your power comes from.

drrobotnic.9387:

Last question so far at lvl 40 I have this

http:/fQAQNArYWjMat7pbKb07JApCPPp4bwjKQMA/gw2skills.net/editor/?

Where would the rest of my trait points go after I level past 40?

Sorry I know! THis is my second toon my first was an engie but i like Necro better.

This link isn’t working for me. Can you try posting it again?

I just tested it out, and I must say this is very nice, Everything seems to make more sense now, I don’t feel like im playing street fighter and mashing all the buttons.

Glad to hear it. If you have any further questions you can always whisper me in game. Just use the username to the left (Kravick.4906) and it will automatically whisper whatever character I’m on.

Rennoko.5731:

I cannot find this anywhere, do you know the durations that are base when using corruption boon? I was always under the impression the flip was based on the remaining time of the original condition.

So if I flip aegis to burning, how long does the burning last?
If I flip might to weakness, how long does that last, or is it the same duration?

This is mostly from personal experience. I just observe the white bars around the boons as I corrupt them, and notice that whenever something is corrupted, it always seems to have a fixed duration (white bars tick down at the same speed every time). I do not have the actual numbers other than Stability to Fear. However, just yesterday I corrupted a guardian that had approx 1 second of Aegis left. The white bar around the boon was just about to disappear. It corrupted turned into around 6 seconds or so of burning? I also had some condition duration so the timer would have been longer than normal. An easy way to test this and get exact numbers is to get a partner and go into the Heart of the Mists and find an empty room and corrupt him over and over without any condition duration equipped.

Myrmidian Eudoros.4671:

If you watch the video closely, then you can figure out the build that he is using in the tPvP.

I personally like using Sig of Undeath in tourney, and in general well played necro is one of the viable additions to a team. The biggest issue for PvP necro is that the skill floor is very high compared to the other professions due to the lack of outs and the limited ability to avoid damage (you have to mitigate instead to be effective).

Nice vid though. Does a nice job highlighting some of the profession’s strengths. Hot Join Heroing with a strong AoE necro makes for good lols.

Yeah, I think I figured it out just by doing that. What I’m not sure about though are what sigils/runes and if hes using the 33% scepter duration trait or not.

drrobotnic.9387:

Thanks I will try a lot of this stuff out, Im 40 now, but plan on being 55 by the end of the weekend, the wells seemed so beast though even without power. Suffering alone can take out 4 mobs with no other damage dealt

You can still use them if you want. There really is no wrong way to level, but some builds may be more efficient than others. It isn’t until you get to 80 that you need to finalize and get skills that have synergy with your stats. Do give epidemic a try first though. Properly used, it will wreck groups of NPCs like nobodies business. Start small until you get the hang of things though so you don’t overwhelm yourself. 2, maybe 3 NPCs at the most. Once you get the rotation down, you can blow up groups of 5 or more without breaking a sweat.

The point placement isn’t bad, but some of your trait and skill choices seem rather odd.

Weapon: Drop the focus and pick up dagger off hand. Focus is a power based weapon. It doesn’t scale with condition damage. Keep the staff and scepter. I’ll explain the dagger off hand use later.

Blood Tree: For leveling, Transfusion isn’t going to do anything for you. You cannot be healed while in DS, so its not doing anything. Put Mark of Blood on dodge here instead. Remember, you can also use it offensively by dodging into enemies. The bigger marks trait from Death Magic tree works with the mark on dodge trait, so you’ll have bigger dodge marks. Deathly Invigoration is kind of a lackluster trait. The amount it heals for is incredibly small, but theres not much better so you can either keep it, or use the minions siphon life and transfer it to you since you’re using flesh golem. 3rd trait is really whatever you want it to be at this point, but siphons are 50% more effective is a good choice, though.

Death Tree: Change nothing. Its good.

Curses Tree: Everything is good except that you picked the warhorn trait. You don’t seem to have one equipped. I’m not sure why thats there. I would replace it with Weakening Shroud for extra bleed stacks. Use it offensively.

Skills: Drop the wells. Those skills scale with power, not condition damage. Very few NPCs give conditions outside of dungeons, so Well of Power is a wasted utility for leveling. Instead, pick up Blood is Power, and use dagger off hand #4 to transfer the self inflicted bleeding to your target. Get Epidemic. It allows you to solo large groups of NPCs. No exaggeration. With practice, you can round up 5 NPCs, stack bleeding on one target, Epidemic them, and watch the entire group fall dead. Necros are crazy good at PVE AoE. There isn’t really much better for a third utility as a condition necromancer so pick up Signet of the Locust so you can travel around faster. Flesh Golem is good for leveling, so keep him.

For a basic rotation, dodge roll into your enemy, Scepter 2, Dagger 5, Blood is Power, Dagger 4, Epidemic if more than 1 NPC, scepter auto attack. Another thing you can do is use DS for an extra Enfeebling Blood, and then hit DS 2 for the extra bleed stacks

These were some really good fights, and you show some exceptional skill. I am curious of what your build is, but I understand if you want to keep it secret. Or you could PM it to me if you just don’t want to post it publicly.

ddoi.9264:

You can get rabid armor and weapons with WvW badges now; check the merchants. Also orr temples have 4 out of 6 pieces of rabid stat armor and exotic rabid back, ring and accessories for karma in dwayna’s.

Can you transmute new skins on them? I know with the old soldiers gear you got with badges it wouldn’t let you transmute anything on it.

Boon corruption always flips the boon into a fixed amount of condition time. Even if the boon you corrupted had only 1 second left, it will still flip to its maximum condition time. Each condition has a different length though and I don’t know off the top of my head what each conditions length is. Stability is always converted into a 1 second fear regardless of how much time stability had remaining. However, these conditions can be influenced by condition duration. A terror build with 100% fear duration would thus corrupt stability into a 2 second fear.

Despite all the short comings, this class is still fun as hell to play. More fun than anything else I’ve tried so far, IMO. Necromancers aren’t bottom of the barrel, but they’re not top of the food chain either. Its a very middle of the road class. Capable of doing a lot, but none of it can be pushed to the max like other classes can. In other words, we lack the ability to specialize. Like was said above, if 10 is the best possible you can be at a particular role, necromancers can only achieve a flat 7 across the board.

Your typical dungeon run you won’t get passed over. Its only when you try to attempt level 30+ fractal runs (completely irrelevant really, you can still get everything in the lower levels just fine) and certain speed run groups do you see this kind of behavior. This has more to do with the insane min/maxing that warriors, guardians, and mesmers can achieve when grouped together and less about what necromancers are capable of doing, though.

Now to answer your question about what makes necromancers bad. What makes necromancers bad is entirely subjective, and really only you can decide if it will effect your game play or not. As an example, our class defining skill, Death Shroud, has been said by ANet to be an intricate part of everything we do as a class. Unfortunately, Death Shroud doesn’t have much synergy with condition builds. You’re also going to build life force at an incredibly slow rate as a condition build. If you don’t care about this, then it won’t affect your game play at all. Whats unique about this class is if you don’t like a particular aspect of it, you can actually ignore it and still play just fine. Don’t like minions? No problem, you have plenty of other options to choose from. Conditions not your thing? We have a few power builds that are pretty decent. Hate melee combat? You’ve got plenty of options when it comes to condition and even hybrid builds.

There is also a lot of quirks you have to work around with some of our skills, such as Corrupt Boon, and now Epidemic. Its hard to explain and is something you’ll have to experience to understand, but its pretty difficult to get those skills to work in PVP due to several factors. Our minion skills also suffer from some pretty bad AI problems currently and are not viable in most dungeon settings and WvW. However, they’re absolutely awesome in an open world setting doing heart quests, and they can work in sPvP/tPvP. We also have a lot of skills that are very slow to activate when compared to other classes. Since we have very little options to get stability, you will get interrupted a lot. This can be a tad frustrating. All of our projectile skills are also incredibly slow and are easily sidestepped/dodged by players.

We’re also facing the issue of how ANet envisioned our class. They’ve said necromancers are supposed to be the masters of attrition, but like everything else, necromancers are only average at attrition style combat. There are classes that do attrition style combat a lot better. Maybe this will get fixed some day, who knows.

Now, if you want to tag things in WvW, you’ve picked the right class. With the right build, you’ll rake in the bags like nobodies business. A lot of what necromancers do is AoE so once you figure things out, you shouldn’t have a problem tagging things in WvW. In zerg fights, where you can hide in the numbers, necros are actually pretty awesome. The more people you have around you as a necromancer, the stronger you become (Dance minions! DANCE!). Conversely, thieves are very strong in small scale fights and 1vOutnumbered fights, but the more people around them, they weaker they actually become.

Don’t let the negativity dissuade you from at least trying the class. I guarantee you will still have fun. It really only becomes frustrating when you try to min/max with this class.

Nemesis.8593:

When i was doing CoF speed runs with my people (all of them quit) in week 2 after release… we were rushing just 2 bosses about 20 times a day. I’ve gotten full exotic within 15 days after release. Back then i was selling exotic earrings with 12g each… i could have bought about 4 precursors at one point, but i thought they would get cheaper then 20g… what a fool i was. Me and my people were one of the first group of people that beat ALL the mobs at the survive event in CoF path 2, BEFORE the nerf which was BEFORE they change the event completely. I know what speed runs are… we were doing so many daily before you even had a daily reward. Let’s not talk about Arah boss 1 farm… we could have swore we had some GMs after us at one point.

You are correct that burst power damage > sustained condition damage if the fight is over with one burst, condition damage doesn’t have a chance to build up… but if it’s a long fight, burst damage can’t compare with condition damage… if it did condition damage would be useless, witch is not.

I don’t think i am in the wrong, the hundreds of people that have personally thanked me via PM here, in game, email, comments and other forum accounts… they thanked me for the information provided, because now they see how good necromancer can be compared to how they played it before… and last but definitely not least ArenaNet… They have made one of the most complex build system i have ever seen in an MMO, do you think the same people would just happen to make it so imbalance ?

I am not saying necromancer is perfect… in fact in brought suggestions in the past, one of it was actually implemented 2 patches ago in a different form, but it’s not as bad as people say…

Since you don’t fully understand the warrior mechanics, and the fact that axe can be swapped out on bosses for greater sustained damage, I don’t think you’re seeing the bigger picture here.

This is what I don’t understand. You base all of your math on a 10 second fight that had no hard numbers associated with it. Just a time to kill scenario. This isn’t even factoring in what kind of damage output can be achieved over a greater amount of time. You then use that 10 second fight to base all of your scenarios around, including boss fights which typically last a couple minutes or so. Then you come up with a scenario that vastly favors the necromancers with imaginary immobile NPCs that always stay far enough apart so that the warrior can never cleave them, and then you claim necromancers can easily keep up with warriors in terms of DPS. Then you never even consider the sustained damage warrior axe has. None of this sits well with me. None of it.

Also, when I asked if you had been in a meta group before, you completely sidestepped the question. Then you start talking about experiences at the start of the game which has nothing to do with what is being discussed now. I’m talking about current meta. Not something that happened 6 months ago. You can’t do that any more. I honestly don’t think you are actually aware of how much damage, and how fast things get killed, by the group composition I spoke of. The other classes are not invited to those sort of things simply because they just can’t keep up.

I’m sorry, but your scenarios are flawed, and completely one sided. You’ve got the necromancer math right, I can’t argue against that, but with nothing else to properly compare it too, it means nothing in the grand scheme. I cannot accept anything you produce as truth until you give us another classes raw math to compare necromancers too. You also need to include scenarios that go in their favor as well, because if you don’t all you’re doing is trying to make necromancers look better than they are.

There is also personal experience to go by. Any time I am in a group with a necromancer on any of the other classes I play, I notice it takes a lot longer to kill things. I can’t say what builds they have or if they’re even being played properly, but its just the way things feel. When a necromancer joins the party, I know the dungeon is going to take longer to finish.

Its great that so many people have thanked you, but that doesn’t really mean anything to this discussion. It honestly feels like you’re side stepping my argument instead of trying to solidify your point, which you haven’t done. I’m talking about your one sided scenarios here, not the fact you’re helping people out, which is great that you’re doing BTW. I even learned a few things from you myself. However, I’m seeing a lot of confirmation bias here.

HiSaZuL.2843:

Good job presenting perfect situation where everything is one sided. That’s the best way to make a compelling argument. Good job. You sir convinced me of your superior thought process. Like your claims that you > everyone else in wvw. Yep. I’m totally convinced.

more stuff

Whoa there buddy, no need to get so hostile. I want to keep this discussion civil. I agree that hes using one sided scenarios, but you don’t need to insult the guy.

I dont feel this is how necro is. but it made me lmao XD

My favorite part is where the kid crashes into that truck and explodes. Sometimes I feel like that.

I question what your exact build and gear is when you play a true glass cannon.

30/15/0/0/25 everything berserkers, ruby orbs, ascended rings, dagger/warhorn axe/focus, fire sigil in main weapons, force sigil in off weapons, crit chance oil, 10% crit chance food. Hits really hard, but I’ve never achieved the numbers you speak of with this build.

I do not consider this viable in WvW. You just die way to easily. Thieves will destroy you before you can blink. DS will not save you.

Nemesis.8593:

So let me see if i understand correctly…

A glass cannon warrior drags all monsters (without a taunt system) in one place while building up stacks of might… then proceeds to do 35k damage 100B with cleave on 3 targets.

Let’s assume for a second he doesn’t die by doing that, and he can maintain agro… while not dying as a glass cannon.

I don’t have a problem doing this and not dying as a glass cannon. You don’t actually engage those targets until they stack up. The same thing can also be said about necromancers, though. If the necromancer is by himself, those veterans aren’t going to just be standing there allowing you to hit them. They’re going to be chasing you just as easily, but we’re both talking about group fights in dungeons, so on to how that works. Its also not just Hundred Blades you have to factor in. There is Whirlwind as well. I’ll explain more below.

So my question to you is this, Nemesis. Have you ever been present to a CoF speed run with 3 warriors, 1 guardian, and a mesmer? Because yes, thats exactly what happens. Everyone stacks up, or has the mesmer pull everything to a corner with Temporal Curtain. Then the three glass cannon warriors go to town. When all the NPCs are stacked up against a wall, whirlwind is also a big factor in damage output. If you spin it against the wall with all the NPCs stacked on you, the warrior never moves, and the NPCs take all the damage from whirlwind. So really, its both Hundred Blades and Whirlwind that is throwing out so much damage. Things die SO FAST that it doesn’t matter if you’re glass or not. The guardian is there to provide Aegis and Protection to everyone. You honestly never get hit more than once or twice before everything is dead. On boss fights, the same thing happens only this time the mesmer drops Time Warp. I kid you not, and this is not even an exaggeration, the bosses die in less than 15 seconds.

Now do you see why necromancers are not part of this meta? You just cannot achieve that kind of damage output with a necromancer. Especially against multiple targets. Even our highest DPS build relies on bleeding damage, which takes time to do its work. In this game, direct damage and burst beats condition any day.

There is also warrior axe builds to consider as well. Axe doesn’t have the burst GS does, but it has incredible sustain, that over a period of greater than 20-30 seconds, axe starts to out damage GS by a large margin, and continues to do so the longer the fight lasts. Axe is better against single boss encounters because of this. The axe build isn’t that much different from the GS build either. In fact there is a build that allows you to switch just 2 traits before a fight and you go from GS to axe, which is what I use when I do speed runs.

I don’t know if you saw my edit way back, I kind of made the change a few hours after the post, but I want to say that I hope you’re not taking any of this personally. I still respect you and you’ve brought a lot to this community, and even shown me things I wasn’t aware of, but I simply can’t see this class as complete until we’re brought up to the same level as the other classes.

I think Kravick, like many others, loves the necro to the core, and it result in a big love/hate relationship. I can really relate to his feeling though, and I like having both sides of a coin to the forums instead of just one.

I did the same thing he did, leveled a mesmer, guardian and soon, engi to 80. They all have better mechanics and better access to direct damage (and even conditions in some case) WHILE still having easy access to lifesaver abilities (target drop, stealth, stability, invulnerability), which are normally better in WvW/PvP situation, where you’re not fighting veterans and the guy in front of you melt with the right setup while you’re evading all retribution.

This. I want to love this class like its my one and only child, but there are some seriously questionable design decisions going on here. Even the most die hard necromancer fan still has to admit at the end of the day that we’re not the masters of attrition that ANet has envisioned for us right now. I could honestly not give a kitten about the necromancers damage output. I’m fine with it as it is, but our survivability is completely out of whack with the rest of the games mechanics. DS is a poor substitute when compared to mechanics that out right evade, avoid, or completely block incoming damage.

Nemesis.8593:

flow.6043:

Kravick.4906:

Nemesis.8593:

It was me that compared the warrior with the necromancer over 10 seconds. The point was that the necromancer took 12 seconds to do it, but he also adds up to 25 stacks of vulnerability. So even though the necromancer’s damage is 20-25% lower then the warrior’s, he gives the warrior + the entire team 25% more damage overall.

My point was that necromancer power damage = 75%‘s of warrior damage + 25% increased warrior damage (because you increase the warrior’s damage) + more damage for the party… It’s… balanced in a way…

You also compared a single target build vs a warrior’s cleave, over a period of time which can not be accurate, yes… as bursting out 3 single normal mobs, the warrior would win. How about we calculate DPS vs 5 veteran mobs over… how ever much time it takes for them to die… 30 seconds.

I’ll do the math for the necromancer since i know it by heart… full condition build has 1800 condition damage (even more with the new ascended gear) and 133% bleeding duration + blood is power = 2150 condition damage and 25 stacks of bleeding on the target… which equals a DPS of exactly 3750 just from bleeding + the small scepter auto -attacks. Let’s call it 4k dps… omg so small… a warrior does so much more omg. Ok… let’s take our 4k DPS x 5 epidemic every 12 seconds, in a radious of 600 at a range of 1200.

Spikes of 20k DPS (minimum + DS 4 + bleeding AOEs normal damage + external buffs… you can get up to 25k DPS) every 12 seconds, while being extremely tanky, while having the ability to heal and support the party, while being at range.

So back to my original benchmark… 5 veteran mobs spread around a room… warrior vs necromancer.

Wheres the warriors math? I see nothing that which you are comparing it too. You’ve got the necros math all planned out, but you show me nothing to compare it too. So really, how are we to know where the necromancer really stands over all if there is no other benchmark here? This is a one sided argument designed to make necromancers look better. You’re also forgetting the constant 25 stacks of might the warrior is going to have, which doesn’t get stacked up in 10 seconds, as well as the several stacks of vulnerability the NPC is going to have (warriors stack vuln like crazy too ya know and you completely threw that out the window). You also can’t throw out the warriors ability to cleave so easily like that. There are just way to many encounters in this game where cleave is a factor for you to just throw it out like that.

He didn’t throw it out. His major point was that a low range sword cleave can’t beat the wide range 5-target-aoe of a necro if you count all the damage output together + the group support that comes along with it.

Exactly…

This tells me nothing… I don’t even get how this is even relevant in most dungeons.

flow.6043:

I don’t reach it without food, wouldn’t make sense to eat a veggie pizza if you allready have 70%.
Mad King, Lyssa, Lich and Nightmare increase condition duration. I know many people carrie 2 mad king and 2 lyssa for its +20% duration, not only necromancers.

Of the runes listed, only Nightmare gives condition damage. The condition duration on nightmare is also bugged and doesn’t work, unless that got fixed in the March patch. I see where you’re going with this, but traditional condition builds revolve around runes that also give condition damage.

Niche as in: every dungeon and fractal and wvw zerg fights and, and, and….?
Keep in mind, clumping mobs up to a warrior also benefits the necromancer if he uses marks, wells etc. and even then a warriors cleave can only hit 3 at a time… while the necromancer can provide the warrior with regeneration, condition removal, combofields (=area blindness, weakness,… and all the finishers the warrior can apply himself)

No, not every dungeon. Majority of dungeons involve lots of clumped up NPCs. As far as fighting bosses that are just the boss and no other NPCs, warriors still blow necromancers out of the water in terms of damage, which is the entire point of this discussion. Comparing the DPS of necromancers to warriors without factoring in cleave is also meaningless. Even in that case, a thief is going to spank both of them, and not by much vs a warrior.

flow.6043:

He didn’t throw it out. His major point was that a low range sword cleave can’t beat the wide range 5-target-aoe of a necro if you count all the damage output together + the group support that comes along with it.

Thats way to niche to even consider taking seriously then. Those situations are too few and far inbetween. The vast majority of PVE fights in this game involve clumping everything in your face and AoEing it down. I can think of only a handful of fights where this doesn’t happen, and even in those instances, all the trash mobs leading up to it still behave normally and clump up.

At what point can a warrior not drag mobs together and clump them up, even in instances?

flow.6043:

Didn’t you say you watched nemesis videos?
Power + condition duration in one traitline makes sense and doesn’t exclude conditionmancers from using it, in nemesis hybrid build he even invests 30 into spite. He even explains exactly that… why doesn’t go power with precision and cond dmg with duration.
Also there are runes, which are definitely more populare than givers weapons.
And typically necromancers prefer condition duration over bleeding duration, not the other way around. As you said, bleeding duration is easier to come by, so once you have around 70%+ cond duration you can fill the gap to 100 easily (if that is even somthing to strive for at that point…).

Those videos are PVE builds. PVE is not the topic of discussion here. I’m talking about PVP here. Always have been. However, once I actually tried that hybrid build out in PVP. It didn’t fair to well. Absolutely no survivability. If anyone even sneezed at you, you died. Glass builds only work in PVP if your class has the mobility to dodge attacks.

As far as Nemesis explanation, I never agreed with it. I have always felt it its a haphazard mess that prevents necromancers from specializing properly like other classes are able too.

Actually, if you would, tell me how you’re achieving 70% condition duration without the use of food or givers weapons. All the condition builds I’ve seen people post use Krait, Centaur, Afflicted, and Undead runes, and none of them have condition duration on them. Just bleeding duration.

Nemesis.8593:

I also don’t know how you can constantly say that almost every other class can 1v2-3 and necromancer can’t… If that is true i should have met so many people that went vs me and my mate Shiva and killed us both. In TPvP i’m the team leader and i usually make sure in real time that the team’s movement patterns allow for me to team up with our thief Shiva… after the initial large team fight. It’s funny… because 90% of the time when me and shiva find 2-3 other players, i call out a target… and i say… wait for it… wait for it… NOW… 9 stacks of bleeding + fear + fear + fear if stability + golem charge while shiva burst gives us an instant kill, then the fight turns into a 2v1 or 2v2. Not to mention that if me and shiva are 2v3-ing in one place on the map… there’s going to be a 3v2 somewhere else… which the other members of the team will win. At best people that me and shiva focus right can get away from us, if they are bunker elementalists or… no… just that.

Where or who are those people that can solo vs me and not one other… but two other…
Keep in mind that we lack the proper experience, we are around rank 25s in PvP, and rank 50s went down to our combo just as a rank 1 absolutely no difference… Maybe a rank 1000 can solo us, but then again… there is no rank 1000 because there’s only so much you can do with 10+ skills.

Now I’m confused. First, I was talking about 1v2s and 1v3s, which you mention, and then you immediately bring up the fact you fight with a partner all the time, and that you’re constantly never fighting alone because you make sure to coordinate your movements. Necros are great with a partner. I never disputed that. But then again, so is every other class. You’ve diverged off topic here I think.

Nemesis.8593:

It was me that compared the warrior with the necromancer over 10 seconds. The point was that the necromancer took 12 seconds to do it, but he also adds up to 25 stacks of vulnerability. So even though the necromancer’s damage is 20-25% lower then the warrior’s, he gives the warrior + the entire team 25% more damage overall.

My point was that necromancer power damage = 75%‘s of warrior damage + 25% increased warrior damage (because you increase the warrior’s damage) + more damage for the party… It’s… balanced in a way…

You also compared a single target build vs a warrior’s cleave, over a period of time which can not be accurate, yes… as bursting out 3 single normal mobs, the warrior would win. How about we calculate DPS vs 5 veteran mobs over… how ever much time it takes for them to die… 30 seconds.

I’ll do the math for the necromancer since i know it by heart… full condition build has 1800 condition damage (even more with the new ascended gear) and 133% bleeding duration + blood is power = 2150 condition damage and 25 stacks of bleeding on the target… which equals a DPS of exactly 3750 just from bleeding + the small scepter auto -attacks. Let’s call it 4k dps… omg so small… a warrior does so much more omg. Ok… let’s take our 4k DPS x 5 epidemic every 12 seconds, in a radious of 600 at a range of 1200.

Spikes of 20k DPS (minimum + DS 4 + bleeding AOEs normal damage + external buffs… you can get up to 25k DPS) every 12 seconds, while being extremely tanky, while having the ability to heal and support the party, while being at range.

So back to my original benchmark… 5 veteran mobs spread around a room… warrior vs necromancer.

Wheres the warriors math? I see nothing that which you are comparing it too. You’ve got the necros math all planned out, but you show me nothing to compare it too. So really, how are we to know where the necromancer really stands over all if there is no other benchmark here? This is a one sided argument designed to make necromancers look better. A 10 second time frame with no numbers to show prolonged fighting is also not good to base your analysis on. If you’re not showing any actual numbers other than how long it takes a warrior to kill something without giving him time to stack his might, and then comparing that data to boss fights that last longer than 10 seconds, then your initial data set is going to be horrendously skewed in favor of the necromancer. You need hard numbers from both sides before I can take your analysis seriously.

You’re also forgetting the constant 25 stacks of might the warrior is going to have, which doesn’t get stacked up in 10 seconds, as well as the several stacks of vulnerability the NPC is going to have (warriors stack vuln like crazy too ya know and you completely threw that out the window). You also can’t throw out the warriors ability to cleave so easily like that. There are just way to many encounters in this game where cleave is a factor for you to just throw it out like that.

Now I hope you’re not taking any of this personally. I’m not doing this because I have anything against you. Truth is, I actually want to be wrong here, but I’m not seeing it. Right now, I’m on the side that says necromancers aren’t that great. I want to be on your said that says they’re fantastic. Without the math, I can’t do that. The fact is, unless you have hard numbers to compare on both sides of this equation, you’re only guessing.

flow.6043:

Kravick.4906:

Whats he going to do? Run away from you? They have no mobility skills to get away, so feel free to stand right on top of them while you out damage them with your burning and confusion, which necros can’t do, on top of your own bleeding and poison.

Again you are making the necro sound like this little helpless infant, bareley able to stop sucking on his pacifier before he can even react. Out of context one might think you are talking about a regular mindless risen mob.

Also, Signet of Spite? Just… no. I shouldn’t need to explain why that was a very bad skill to bring up. 5 seconds of conditions on a 90 second cool down? Yeesh, such a bad skill.

To be fair, a decent condition mancer would have somewhere between +50-100% condition duration. So let’s say 5 sec blind and 8 sec of everything else. If you land that you either force a cleanse or disable your opponent long enough to deal some more serious damage without him beeing able to do anything about it. And if you think about it, for its one time use in a dueling scenario there aren’t many utilities for a necro that are more aggressive than that. But yeah, cd is too long so noone uses it.

Never said they were a helpless infant, but keeping distance, or staying on a necromancer, is never an issue, so bringing up range as a counter argument doesn’t work.

You would have a point about Signet of Spite, if our condition duration wasn’t stapled to the spite tree, which only power necromancers take. Lets be honest here, your typical conditionmancer is going to have only 40% condition duration through super vegi pizza, and sadly not every necromancer uses it. While the Giver weapons were finally fixed, I still don’t see many necromancers using them as the other stats are less than optimal for a condition spec.

Necromancers typically stack bleeding duration, not condition duration, as its easier to get and you can stack it in larger quantities. Even so, Signet of Spite’s passive lacks synergy with condition spec, so even if Signet of Spite was worth using, a conditionmancer probably wouldn’t use it. Power users OTOH, I could see that since they’re forced to take condition duration if they want any kind of synergy with their builds. Of course thats if the signets cool down is ever brought into reason.

Criselli.7462:

Sure an engineer with 409 can cure conditions one at a time via elixir toss/drink, but while they’re doing that you can still be applying conditions while he is busy doinkittenage and attempting to cleanse them. And every single one of those elixirs is going to give him a boon of some sort for you to finally corrupt in the end. Not only that but engineer conditions are applied at a relatively short range compared to the necros.

I have two engineers at level 80 and I am VERY much aware of their limitations. And even if they’re covered in boons doesn’t mean you can’t be destroying them with conditions or other damage…

You only need to clear the bleeding stacks to stop a condition necro from doing anything to you. Necromancers stack bleeding very slowly. Because of the way the condition removal system works, last condition applied is the first condition removed, bleeding is always the first condition to be removed. Range is also not an issue against a necromancer. Whats he going to do? Run away from you? They have no mobility skills to get away, so feel free to stand right on top of them while you out damage them with your burning and confusion, which necros can’t do, on top of your own bleeding and poison. Getting to much for you to handle? Pop Elixir S and heal yourself without fear of being interrupted, or drop a supply crate which applies more burning from flame turret and gives you health packs. Use Gear Shield to take some pressure off. Knock down the necro with Magnet.

I may not have the experience you do playing one, but I’ve seen plenty of engineers and what they do to me. It frickin hurts. At no point do I ever feel threatened when a necromancer shows up. An engineer on the other hand, I’ve learned to approach them with caution, because they can seriously hurt you very quickly, or turn out to be one of the tankiest kittens this game has ever seen. I have watched 1 engineer bunker a point against 4 people, and do so for a good solid minute before backup finally arrived.

Also, Signet of Spite? Just… no. I shouldn’t need to explain why that was a very bad skill to bring up. 5 seconds of conditions on a 90 second cool down? Yeesh, such a bad skill.

As to cast times and cooldowns… what skills are you referring to?

Are you serious? How about every skill with a 1 second or greater cast time? Its very rare to find a skill with a cast time that long on another class. Necros are riddled with them.

flow.6043:

So at some point we just have to come to the conclusion that it’s not the classes fault but you just play other classes better.

I disagree with this statement entirely. Screenshots from the last couple of tPvP matches I’ve played. I’m not so egotistical to call myself good or “the best”, but I do achieve wins with this class. Its just so much easier, and faster, with other classes. This is mainly due to the class mechanics, where my abilities go off instantly on other classes. Even you have to admit that the cast times and cool downs on necromancers simply are not in line with the rest of the classes currently. Even engineers don’t have cast times and cool downs this absurdly long.

Yes, thats me on the top in both screenshots. This is how most of my tPvP matches end up looking, win or lose.

Bas.7406:

Kravick, why are you even on this forum. All you do is hate on the Necromancer. I have seen the numbers the players are talking about, and we are pulling it off easily. If you are having issues, the Necro isn’t for you.

I swear everytime you visit the board it’s only to troll about how great you are on everything and the Necro sucks. When it’s obvious to everyone who plays the class competitively that the issue is you, not the class.

Sorry you feel that way, but thats the whole point of a forum. If there is never a place to voice our grievances, then nothing improves. This class in its current state is a shambling mess.

But honestly, I could say the same thing about you. All I ever hear from you is how necromancers are the perfect class and that if anyone has a problem with it, its the players fault for simply “not getting it” and that its “not for you” bullkitten. You out right attack people for not thinking that everything is A-OK with this class. I also call bullkitten on the numbers you’re seeing. I’ve been playing this class since frickin release and I have never EVER seen numbers that high on the skills listed unless I’m attacking up leveled players in WvW. They don’t even get that high in PVE. On what mobs are you seeing 10k life transfers on?! Seriously, show me.

As I keep saying, there is a REASON this class is one of the least played right now. It brings absolutely nothing unique to the table in terms of game play and is being held back by a bad game mechanic the devs think is too powerful or something. Why do you think there are so many people calling to have DS removed or reworked into something that will stop having us being held back?

I know you and a few others like to claim this class is hard to play, but its really not. The rotations are simple enough, the skills are pretty straight forward. The problem is its implementation and cast times. Every other class is doing the same thing we are, but instantly, or near instantly. Cast times not included, etc. Also the fact that I can pick up another class and seemingly do better with it, as I talk about with engineers, without having any prior experience with it, suggests that something is not right with this class. Necromancer is not a hard class to play, and that hard to master thing isn’t right either. There are only so many skill combinations.

All my characters ended up being female charr. Wasn’t my original intention, but I loved the charr personal story quests so much, and I wanted to experience all the different stories that it just ended up that way. I also really like the way charr females are portrayed in this game. Tough and able to fight right up along side their male counterparts. They’re really no different than male charr really.

That, and I think ANet did such a fantastic job on the charr female models that its kinda hard imagining myself playing anything else at this point. I don’t particularly like any of the male faces so I’ve never been interested in rolling a male charr. I think my next character is going to be a ranger. A female charr of course.

Poplolita.2638:

RebelYell.7132:

Poplolita.2638:

Sound like a burn out. Slow down and relax.

Real the OP more closely. The RNG is what’s forcing him to play more. If it was fixed, he may well be able to “slow down”, as you so tactfully put it.

I did. It’s a burn out, and he should relax and slow down, eventually he’ll get what he so dearly want. RNG doesn’t force anyone to play more.

Yeah actually, it kinda does. If you’re looking for a specific skin and it never drops, you’ll need to continue doing it until it does. RNG in video games is notoriously bad for this sort of thing as well because there is no such thing as true RNG with computers.

kidbs.8920:

Kravick you still keep focusing on condition builds for some reason. Necros have some of the highest AoE damage in the game and I’m not talking about using epidemic. Our wells can do some pretty extreme damage when stacked on a group (4k+ per tick with well of corruption and suffering combined). Staff autoattacks pierce and can easily crit for over 2k on anything in it’s path. Death shroud 4 can channel up to 10k to multiple targets.

As far as single target damage, my final attack of the dagger chain can crit for anywhere between 5-6k. Try and tell me that is crap especially considering how rapidly daggers hit. My death shroud #1 also crits for 6-7k.

Power/crit berserker builds do massive damage and I would consider a glass cannon necro build to have more survivabilty than a glass cannon warrior.

I just don’t get what kind of gear and builds that you are using that obviously suck so bad.

I have never, ever, seen these kinds of numbers, even when running full berserkers gear. Are you hitting up leveled people or something to achieve those kinds of numbers? You should never base your damage on anyone that has a green arrow on their name.

At best, well of suffering crits for approx 1k-1.5k per pulse, well of corruption about 600. Life blast crits, at best, for approx. 4.5k against a glass target. Dagger final attack will crit, against a glass thief, for 3.5k at most. Maybe 4k if you manage to get the vuln to stack up a bit. Death Shroud 4 I’ve only ever seen go as high as 4k on a single target. I can’t speak for staff auto, highest I’ve ever seen that hit for is 1.4k. That damage is actually rather low when you start comparing them to the numbers other classes can put out on a consistent basis.

The numbers above are when I tried using a full berserker’s armor set plus accessories using a 30/20/0/0/20 build. The damage wasn’t much higher than using knights and the survivability was horrible. I literally got Steal -> CnD -> Backstab comboed by a thief and went straight to downed state using that build. Not that great of a trade off if you ask me. Obviously I don’t use that build any more.

Again, if you’re basing your numbers off up leveled targets, you’re doing it wrong. That is not an accurate assessment of the kinds of numbers anyone is capable of putting out.

Now go play a staff elementalist and come back and talk to me about AoE.

Leeto.1570:

Neat movie, but i have to disagree with you a bit, necro can face any class and beat them in 1v1 but only if they actually want to kill you more than survive, any good ele and thief can escape necro with no problem at all.
And some guardian or ranger with heavy condition removal spec you just could not kill at all, necromancer is fine but there is a lot of specs that are over the top and necromancer just cant handle.

I have to agree with this.

You also faced some remarkably bad thieves. One of them got you so low that all he had to do was walk up/shadowstep to you and auto attack twice and you would have died. Instead, he runs way (hes at 3/4 life at this point), switches to his short bow (WHY WHY WHY WHY?! YOU HAD HIM!), and tries to range you. You did well by dodging his bow shots, which is what allowed you to win, but I really want to know what was going through his head and why he threw that fight by not pressing the attack.

Over all its what I expected out of a conditionmancer. Was decent game play on your part.

Coming back from playing my engineer for 2+ month, without logging on my necromancer, I just started back playing it 2 weeks ago, stopped because of patch, then this week I’m back on it.

So my point of view come from 2+month of undernumbered roaming in WvW. Like litteraly charging in zerg and spanking them. I die a lot.

Right now, and it’s my personal opinion, I feel like my engineer is better then my necromancer in nearly every aspect.

Note : Take into consideration that I’m not used to my necromancer yet, so it add weight into my preference.

With my engineer, I feel like I can do most thing my necro can do, but better. Let’s just take a HGH build with toolkit and a Master of terror build.

I finally got an engineer to 80 a few days ago. I haven’t had the chance to get exotic gear for it yet, using all rare armor and green accessories, but this entire post is pretty much my experience too. Only been playing engineer for about a day in WvW, and yet I’m able to roam a hell of a lot more effectively than I ever could on my necro. I have no idea what I’m doing on my engineer and have no experience, yet I manage to kill people a lot easier. Even managed to 1v2 two level 80s, and one of them was a necro. Engineers definitely do condition damage a lot better than necromancers from what I’ve seen.

Engineers survivability is also light years better than that of necromancers. Cleaning Formula 409 is insane, and HGH is just stupid OP. God, those might stacks. Having 2 invulnerability buttons on relatively short cool downs is also insane. Plus I have an actual stability or stealth option. I was amazed to say the least. I honestly did not expect the engineer to be this effective at condition damage.

Bhawb.7408:

Kravick.4906:

“OH god! Kill it or we’re gonna get wrecked!” It just doesn’t happen. Thats a sign that this class is not up to par with the others.

Necromancers are the first targets of many tPvP teams because of exactly that, and because most Necro builds are glassy (and so die easily). If you leave a decent necro alone in a team fight, they are going to kill everyone.

No. They get focused because they’re easy to kill and go down extremely easily. Simply denying the other team a player. Nothing more. It is definitely not what you think it is. They might kill everyone… in about 5 years as thats how long it takes them to kill people with conditions. Necros have no burst that equals the other classes, so they’re no real threat against people who know how to use dodge intelligently.

I wanted to put all this in one post, but posting limits and all.

Its not that difficult to get a 1v1 Necromancer build, especially considering how strongly we can counter boon-heavy builds, which are big in the current meta.

And as soon as you strip them, those boons go right back on. The classes that rely on boons are classes that have a far easier time reapplying their boons than we have stripping them. Especially against guardians who just turn the conditions right back into boons once they’ve been corrupted with: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Contemplation_of_Purity Its also a frickin stun breaker! Our role as a bunker buster gets completely negated by a single skill. GG. Elementalists gain those boons right back every time they switch attunements, which is every 3 seconds it seems.

These 1v1 builds also do horribly in tPvP, as anyone who is bunkering up on a point is going to call for backup the minute they see you. Even with boon stripping, you can’t kill them fast enough before backup arrives. We do not have the burst to kill a bunker in the time it takes for their teammates to arrive.

People don’t use necromancers as bunkers because very few necromancers go out of their way to try new builds, they just know that condition necromancers do really well, and use them.

No, people don’t use necromancers as bunker because we can’t bunker as well as the classes that are used for bunker. Bunker is the very essence of attrition. You need to hold out long enough for your teammates to arrive. Sadly, even a bunker necro dies to a burst thief in short order. We simply cannot block or avoid incoming damage like elementalists, guardians, rangers, and engineers can. Their invulnerability skills are primarily why we will never succeed as a bunker class.

2) We have gap closers to use, its up to you to land them. They aren’t quite as easy as other classes, but far from difficult.

We have exactly 1. Its easily dodged because its slow, it suffers from the same problem all projectiles suffer fro*OBSTRUCTED*, its easily out ranged because people can literally walk out of its 900 range due to its slow projectile speed. Our one gap closer is hampered by kittenty game mechanics. This seems to be a reoccurring theme with this class. Not only do we have to fight our opponents, but we also have to fight the game mechanics themselves just to have a fighting chance. Even if we do land Dark Path (which isn’t a gap closer. Leaps and teleports are gap closers), there is nothing stopping people from just dropping the chill effect and walking way from us. Dark Pact is in the same boat, but is way to easily dodged because of the telegraphed move and extremely long cast time.

Let me encourage to watch the Gameplay Podcasts at SOAC Gaming, the Khalifa ones reflect a Necro in tournament play taking down two to three players without dying. It’s not impossible it just takes more work, and more awareness of positioning. Watch the videos by Talentless on when he solo-roamed.

I’ve watched most of them. Your podcasts are nothing new to me. There is no secret revelation or hidden tidbit of information among them that made me go “OOOOOOH THATS WHY!”. Its all stuff I’ve already figured out for myself… months ago. I’ve seen Talentless’ videos. Its… lets just say I am less than impressed. I honestly believe he’d do a lot better if he played a different class. I don’t want to insult the poor guy so I’ll just stop there.

Khalifa is nothing special. I don’t understand peoples infatuation with him. His build is very niche and only works in tPvP because of group play. Catch him by himself and he dies extremely quickly. Hes not some godly PvPer and even he admits that if he is caught out of position he dies extremely easily. Hell, all you have to do is focus fire him even if he is with his teammates and he goes down extremely easily. I honestly feel he’d do a lot better as a thief, as thats how he plays, and his team would be better off for it.

I rarely find a Thief I can’t kill.

Uh huh. Forgive me if I don’t believe you. I’ve heard this A LOT on these forums, and very VERY rarely is it ever true. You know, someone said that very same thing last week also. There was even a video made of it. He got curbstomped by every single thief he fought. Necromancers are joke to kill while playing my thief. Harder to kill with my warrior, takes a little longer, but I can do it easily enough.

People still think necromancer does the lowest damage in a dungeon, people still think necromancer can never do more then 7k with a single skill… people still go into spite for a full condition build, or into curses for a full berserker build with dagger MH and absolutely no way of applying any bleeds…

People say this because its true. Someone once compared a fight vs a warrior over a ten second period of time. I forgot who it was. Essentially the warrior killed its target in 10 seconds and it took the necromancer 12 seconds to do it. During a short fight, less than 10 seconds, you’re not going to notice a difference. That period of time is to small to make an educated time to kill. This is why. http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Forceful_Greatsword That single trait alone is why warriors will beat the pants off necromancers in everything they do. That trait plus 3 targets, they can easily stack up to 25 stacks of might on their own. Necros do about half that in might stacking, and the necromancers damage output is limited to a single target only. Our only ability to do respectable AoE damage is through conditions, which cannot achieve that kind of damage using bleeding alone. Meanwhile, a warrior stacks up 3+ mobs, hits hundred blades, whirlwind, and walks away with a pile of loot and a bunch of dead corpses.

Speaking of damage, I’m aware that a necromancer can do 7k+ damage with a single skill, but they’re using a niche build against a single target. That build will also never survive longer than 2 seconds in PvP because its pure glass. The only reason glass builds work in PvP on other classes is because of mobility, something we all agree that necromancers do not have. They can avoid damage all together, which is superior to simply face tanking it. Additionally, the other classes do that kind of damage to multiple targets and can do that kind of damage with more than just one build in both PvE and PvP.

Necromancer trait trees are an absolute mess that is all over the place, and has little synergy with itself. If you want to make a glass build, you can’t without wasting points on a stat you don’t need. Its why people keep putting points into curses when they want crit. You NEED those points or your crit chance is going to be suboptimal for a crit build. Sadly, to do so, you have to waste those points on also getting 300 condition damage you can’t use. Its part of the reason we don’t have any builds that stand out as OP. It is impossible to achieve the same level of play as the other classes currently because their trees make a lot more sense and don’t look like they’ve been haphazardly thrown together at the last minute.

You wanna know a little secret to MMO class balance? When a class is called out as OP, and you have multiple classes being called out as OP at once, you’ve achieved balance with those classes. Not once has anyone ever called necromancers OP. In PvP, Mesmers, elementalists, guardians, thieves, warriors, even engineers have all been called OP at one point or another. I’ve even heard people call trap rangers OP. Guess what, these classes can actually stand on their own two legs in PvP and win. In the case of rangers, a specific scenario. Against multiple opponents even. They’re not looked down on as a weak class. Not once have I heard someone call out necromancers as OP or, “OH god! Kill it or we’re gonna get wrecked!” It just doesn’t happen. Thats a sign that this class is not up to par with the others.

Alkaline.2809:

Kravick you do bring up some good points.

I dont think the class is terrible like some view it nor do I think its at the top of the food chain.

First and foremost, I want to make myself clear. I do not think this is a terrible class. It does have its strengths. It IS fun to play. However, it is severely lacking in basic functionality that every class in this game currently has. Escape mechanisms. The class design philosophy that ANet has for us is completely broken with the current state of necromancers. Even the engineer, the only class to have even fewer people playing it than necromancers, has way better attrition and survivability mechanics. It just astonishes me that people can say this class is competitive in any form when the very basic concept ANet has for us doesn’t even fall in line with reality.

I know ANet gave us Death Shroud and a high HP pool to compensate, but they completely fail to understand it simply doesn’t work with all the high damage attacks that other classes enjoy. We cannot avoid these attacks most of the time, so that means we have to face tank it, and the extra HP means nothing when it disappears faster than we can recover it.

Guardians and elementalists are extremely good at attrition fights. Guardians have a ton of ways to avoid damage through boons, knock backs, and healing/regeneration. Elementalists boast some of the best burst healing in the game. Necromancers vampiric skills are a joke. They do not even begin to compare. This is where I feel we need the most attention if we are ever to become the attrition masters that ANet envisioned for us.

I don’t care about doing godly DPS. I have my warrior and thief for that. I DO care about not being the attrition masters that we’ve been promised. The engineer, guardian, elementalist, and ranger do attrition better. This is whats broken and needs to be fixed.

Nemesis.8593:

I do agree that in 1v multiple some classes have an easier time, because they can snipe then run away…. however i don’t agree that a thief can 1v3 and a necromancer can’t. Have you taken into consideration that you might be better with your thief then you are with your necromancer ?…

Also if you want to 1v3 some people, and one of those people is… me… you’ll not do anything. So… the point is, you might 1v3 noobs as a thief, then get 1v3 crushed by pro as a necromancer, have you taken that into consideration ?

Of course I have. TBH, I wouldn’t even call myself a “pro” player. I lost to a number of skilled people. I even had it out with Yashi once. Did surprisingly well against him, but in the end he was simply better than me. Thieves are definitely easier to play, but I can 1vMultiple on a thief because they actually have the tools to win those kinds of fights. Not because I’m better on a thief. Warriors I can to a lesser extent, but only because with a warrior I can brute force my way through multiple people with sheer damage output. Since necros lack that kind of damage output, you simply can’t get away with that sort of thing. So if you can’t brute force your way through people with damage, and you can’t out last people with superior defense, what do you have left? 1vMultiple on a necromancer is an exercise in futility against competent opponents. Fighting bad or up leveled opponents serves no one in the end. You don’t get better and you sure didn’t win by skill.

The problem I face as a necromancer is 2 fold. 1.) We cannot win attrition fights. Guardians, elementalists, thieves, engineers, and rangers, they all attrition way better. Its not even a contest. This is why in tPvP if you want a bunker to hold a point, you get an ele, guardian, ranger or engineer to do it. Never a necro. While thieves don’t bunker, they win attrition fights because they have a ton of ways to escape and keep coming back for more. 2.) Damage output. People always bring up the dagger main hand, but it has no gap closers, it doesn’t bring any survivability to offset our lack mobility, and it pales in comparison to other classes main DPS weapons. Half the battle is being able to deliver that damage. While Dark Pact and Dark Path help, there are multiple reasons why they don’t work most of the time. Easily telegraphed moves and slow moving easily dodgable projectiles are only a tip of the iceberg. As a warrior I don’t win attrition fights. However, I can brute force my way through most. As a thief, I can win both attrition and if necessary, brute force my way through.

Look, no offense to you, I’ve seen your videos, but a majority of your experience is in PVE. Your WvW video is mostly of you running with a zerg plopping down marks for pitiful damage. Your video where you talk about sPvP you even go on about why you don’t need swiftness and stability because you get it from the guardian on your team. That right there is a big red flag to me. So honestly, I very much doubt you’d lock me down like you claim. More on that below actually.

Another issue I have with the so called “top” necromancers in WvW is when they do finally show us what they’re capable of, all I see are them 1vXing a bunch of up levels, or running with a partner, or stomping people who are hilariously bad at this game. Necromancers do well with a partner, but the minute you need to disengage or get away from superior numbers, you’re kittened. There is nothing you can do. So why bother bringing a necromancer along when you can bring another class, achieve the same results, but not have to worry about running with someone whos going to end up dying all the time as soon as the numbers are no longer in your favor?

Last week there was even a thread about this very thing. A necromancer stepped up and claimed he could beat thieves easily. He was called out on it, and several people stepped up to the challenge. One of the thieves made a video of it. The necromancer wasn’t bad. He used his skills at the correct time, but he didn’t win a single fight against any of these people. Problem is, necromancers simply don’t have the tools to win attrition fights like we’ve been told we’re supposed to. Classes that have no mobility or severely limited mobility really cannot call themselves competitive in this game.

Tournaments are also kind of a joke in this game. I mean this game doesn’t even have a rating system. The system we have now is basically an XP bar that shows how much time you’ve sent in sPvP/tPvP. It does nothing to prevent these people from going up against lower ranked opponents. All of these teams go up against pugs 90% of the time. Class composition doesn’t really matter when you’ve got 5 people on VoIP vs 5 people who aren’t. Saying a necromancers does well in sPvP/tPvP means nothing when you’ve got 4 other people carrying you.