My apologies, “how much into offense”? I was referring to bunkers, and I forgot that Engis are SUPPOSED to be able to kill someone attacking them while bunking but everyone else “has to call for help”.
They must “call for help” only if they are full condi build that aren’t able to time their condi bursts right.
With a similar build, you can’t do anything toward an opponent. It literally suppose that you are constantly moving and just doing that. In the meantime, you are subject to ranged attacks and, more important, every single control skill from the enemy – and without stability, it isn’t that hard. And we aren’t the only ones that can use swiftness, you know.
By the way, why did you ignore the part regarding the trait you proposed?
As always, when there is a counterargument that oppose your thesis, it gets ignored. Nothing new.
Did you know that Soldier amulet has power as main stat?
Yeah. Have you ever tried using an engineer? Power alone is near useless – almost all the kits are power/condi hybrid. And if you are bunkering you’ll likely use the shield – and so, pistols. The only reason you would do so it because you count on staying alive and killing the opponent doesn’t matter. The trait as it is now help it do so. Changing it would make it useless altogether.
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What kind of argument is this?
If you take AR, you have 300 vitality by default.
3000 hp. We have to fight below 25% hp. That means, we’ll actually use only 750 of those.
We need vit because we already know we’ll use only a quarter of it. We need toughness because with a quarter of health the direct damage you get otherwise would be too big.
Also, you makes it looks like picking a Soldier amulet is too hard to do.
It isn’t hard to do…but you hit like a wet noodle. Fine, for a bunker that just has to stay alive. Not fine for someone with a time limit – that is, what you want for the trait.
It is useless arguing with those guys. If they can’t faceroll their enemy, then the enemy must be nerfed.
They won’t accept any argument other than their own. Heh, even with a video, all they was able to say is that the engineer lost on purpose.
Sure, ignore the entire post about Defy Pain and the vast difference.
Sure, ignore the damage capabilities of a warrior traited kitten and the difference between those traits.
Even with AR, you still have to heal conditions or you would die anyway; that means you’ll have to spec in both toughness (to stay alive below 25% hp) and vitality (to have a decent treshhold to stay alive in).
Other builds die too fast, because their effective hp pool below that treshhold is too small to survive.
That immune, instead, would be instant – you can avoid entirely getting blocks and such things. They would just spec into vitality and then into offensive stats – cause there is no need for toughness in that case.
I have PERSONALLY made a build that can have perma vigor/swiftness, immune to conditions under 25%, good healing, high protection uptime etc.
And it doesn’t do anything else. How many traits related to offense can you get this way? Kits are heavily trait-dependant. You’ve spent at least 50 points for the things you’ve written about. No regen on kits. No elixir-infused bombs. No traited elixirs. No bonus damage on flamethrower and elixir gun. And you plan to run, so you won’t use the tool kit as well.
It works just for theorycrafting.
And it assume the opponent is a terribly incompetent player that is just running after you.
Oh, and “high protection uptime” is a blatant lie. You would have it if and only if you get disabled every 5 seconds. Cause there is no skill that reliably gives it in the engineer’s compartment.
In this thread: engi are omnipotent beings with every trait and utility in any situation while the opponents aren’t able to do a single thing.
Nakoda, just avoid wasting your time trying to argue with these people. It is useless. They are here just to whine hoping devs will nerf it so they can continue facerolling people with ease.
What if instead of -100% duration, instead it just Removed all conditions and gave an 8-10 seconds berserker stance effect (shown with an icon of the trait number so we can see when its about to run off) on a 60-90 sec cd. It’d save lives, allow clutch, bot not be a perma resistance which is no fun.
Give us the same dps of a tanky warrior and we can talk about it. Otherwise we’re just delaying our death by doing so. And it isn’t like we have either the armor or the hp of a warrior, anyway.
Going PVT already makes engineer hit like a wet noodle and it is like the only decent way to try bunkering with AR. You don’t kill anything, but at least you may be able to keep the point (until another power class arrives there, then you will die anyway – and this assuming that the first guy was fully specced into conditions and just that).
Using it in another spec means you either lack toughness or vitality. We have no on-demand protection, so we would take far too damage in the first case. And having low vitality means we would be killed by pre-existant conditions or normal attacks with ease – even with soldier’s equip and vit runes you’ve around 6600 hp, and you must stay below it to avoid getting condibursted into death immediatly.
But those are things i’ve already told and explained many times, and people just ignored them because they just want the trait nerfed, despite how it actually works in practice.
This thread is more about people wanting to faceroll everything alone with their specialized condition build than about balance.
Fair enough to give it the stun breaker and then a 3 second cast on the actual res. Then yeh, I would be happy with the engi. The self res is ridiculous. Resses got nerfed but they forgot to nerf toss elixr r
They already nerfed it long ago, by increasing its cooldown.
And putting 3s cast would make it useless. It already requires whoever must be ressed to stay inside that little area for enough time – it isn’t instant, it gives 20% downed hp per second. You can already use CC before the engineer gets downed to sweep it away from that area. You can use launches after that or poison him and dps him down.
The other ress skills have got a cast time and an instant effect. Here there is an instant cast and an effect that requires some time. And that’s why it is balanced.
Just learn to play.
They are able to deal even now if only they care about what happens in the game. Seriously, you see him tossing it, you see that glowing area, just don’t make him position himself there. CC skills are there for a reason.
Also, if we want to compare it with the other ress skills…sure, it is instant, but that’s just because the effect itself isn’t instant like the others. Where they have a cast time and then ress instantly, you have no cast time and a delayed (whose time depends on your downed hp) ress later.
It is simply extremely biased. Some info are just wrong – they have a self-res, fire-attuned glyph of renewal…you just have to cast it on advance – and you can’t do all of those in a single build – far too many utilities and traits needed.
No, I said it wasn’t used as much, get your head out of the sand… As I’ve said about 5 times in this thread, it harms power melee cap closing far greater than it effects conditions because an engi can gain perma vigor/swiftness while keeping cripples on enemies while immune to even utility conditions… (And I was referring to Engi faceroll builds…)
Cause we have soooo many traits. If i had to judge from this thread, we should have like 50 points to spend on alchemy alone.
vigor, protection when disabled, regen on kits or cleansing formula: choose two. They are all on the alchemy tree.
to get speedy kits you must spend 10 points on the last tree. This prevents you on getting both elixir-infused bombs and the trait to make their explosion bigger (and bombs are quite bad without it, so it would be useless).
Also, cripples. If you use the shield, you haven’t got any of them on the main weapon. So either you get a block or an immobilize/cripple.
So you have to rely on kits for crippling and immobilizing – not bombs, you haven’t even traited them properly – or getting the personal battering ram for the toolbelt skill. And all of this assuming that the enemy can’t even heal himself of a cripple, won’t dodge them, won’t use swiftness, won’t leap or pull or use any CC skills – because they work, aside from fear – and the opponent isn’t using a ranged weapon. And obviously if you’ve got all those 4 cripples you won’t have either a full condi cleanse or elixir r (but you may have a stunbreaker if you got the elixir gun). This also means that you will have died already to the conditions, even with the trait, so this wall of text doesn’t even apply, especially if you hadn’t specced for vit or soldier. And in soldier’s case, you would also be really bad at doing damage.
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Well actually, rather than a nerf it would be nice if other classes had their own source of immunity to conditions or something to put the other classes without this great counter on equal footing with this defensive trait that is exclusive to the engineer.
It would depend on the class. On engineers it is balanced because the drawbacks are heavy, so you’ve got to build specifically for it.
Give it to a class with evades, constant on-demand protection or higher hp pools and it may be unbalanced.
Says the one whining cause he can’t faceroll all the enemies alone in a heavily specialized build and wants a build-defining trait countering that specialized build nerfed.
What is this no-sense?
The only nonsense here is this thread. People using full condition build whining about the only (grandmaster) trait in the game that directly (and only) counters full condition builds (while requiring heavy specialization itself) and wanting it nerfed. Instead of, you know, simply avoid being so specialized or remember that pvp is played in teams and calling an ally.
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It has always been the same when people report something OP in this game.
Everyone who plays that profession often find any kind of excuse and fictional “drawback” to make the trait/skill/combo whatever looks not OP.It happened with Thieves and the backstab combo. People used to say “but.. but thieves are squishy!”
It is happening with Necro and the huge condi burst. People are saying “but… but Necros can be focused easily!”People should realize that those justifications don’t work at all.
Says the one whining cause he can’t faceroll all the enemies alone in a heavily specialized build and wants a build-defining trait countering that specialized build nerfed.
Half of his opening post is about the autoattack and how much it is bad.
And others – me included – agree with that.
I would just like to be free to write “a five seconds cooldown” with proper numbers. It’s in a trait description, come on.
@Manuhell.2759 Engineers have alot of traits for protection and one is in the same trait line a AR. Furthermore, simply by choosing Automatic response, you get transmute which has an 8% chance to convert conditions into boons, and hidden flask (elixer b) for extra retaliation. The Elixir gun provides a condition removing, regenerating light field, retaliation from the combo field, poison, bleeding, and weakness. and regen from the tool tip just by choosing the elixir gun alone. You have two utilities to chose from now and any weapon you want.
Essentially now you have protection, weakness, retaliation, a light field (to heal, grant more retaliation, and remove conditions), poison, and bleeding. And you haven’t even spent 40 trait points, chosen 2 utilities weapons, sigils, armor, runes, or an amulet.(if you need more defense look at the rune of earth/grove)
Those “lot of traits” are two traits, and that’s assuming you get them. In particular, the one you mention gives 3s protection when disabled, on a five* seconds cooldown. The other one gives 3s protection when hit by a critical, 20s cooldown. That’s all the protection we can get. No skill can give that reliably. And being CC at less than 25% hp is quite dangerous anyway.
Hidden flask is activated at 75% hp, so unless we get instabursted into 25% hp we shouldn’t even count its effect.
Transmute has an 8% chance, as you said. Not exactly something we can rely on, but it is a minor one, so it is still better than nothing.
Regarding Super Elixir…it removes a single condition, by itself. But even then, it isn’t like we can use it at leisure – we must purposely stay below the 25% treshhold if we want to maintain the effect. Also, the toolbelt is a stunbreaker, so it shouldn’t be used unless it is really needed.
And weakness and bleeding are given by the autoattack (and are also the only purpose of using it). I doubt one would spam that autoattack instead of using other skills, though…the damage is obviously low. And sure, we can get retaliation by the combo field if we spend blast finishers on it or heal conditions if we are really near to the enemy and we use a full projectile finisher – but that also means getting all his attacks.
Also, to deal decent damage with that kit, you should use a condition build. That means you’ll either lack toughness or vitality. Otherwise you’re just bunkering with it, and that poison and bleeding will do negligible damage.
So, basically, you just took some info, omitting the important details, and clumped all of them together to try to prove a point.
*sorry, can’t write it in numbers, it gets censored
I get what you are saying, but if that’s the case, why can’t rangers be immune to physical damage with bark skin while under 25% health. Sure rangers can remove conditions to some extent (but they have to sacrifice pet condition removal) So conditions will still kill them right? Just like engineers have immunity to conditions while under 25% health but can still use weakness and protection and toughness to stop physical damage from being effective.
1) Conditions already inflicted must be cleansed or you would die anyway – so that alone will require at least a skill. Direct damage would simply stop working immediatly.
2)The only skills engineers’ have got to apply weakness are the elixir gun autoattack and the first downed skill. Also, there is no skill that reliably gives protection – either you get it randomly (by elixir H) or there are traits that can give it in certain situations.
Regarding toughness, sure, it decreases the damage…but it doesn’t come for free. If you spec for toughness, your hp will be quite low while the trait is active. If you spec for vitality you’ll have a bit more hp, but you’ll also take more damage from direct attacks.
If you spec for both of them, you won’t be able to do anything other than tank, cause your damage is really, really bad.
Also, i would add, no decent access to stability outside for the elite skill – and that’s assuming they will use Elixir X.
Otherwise, there is 1s stability on a toolbelt skill of a turret, usable only if the turret isn’t in use.
Stupid in terms of balance, obviously.
The example clearly shows what I meant.
Yeah, that trait would be really useless, especially for a grandmaster one.
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He’s whining about the effect without considering the context, costs and dangers of actively using it. That are the factors that make it balanced.
A stupid skill can’t be made balanced by other factors if it is stupid by itself.
If you have a skill which instantly kills your enemy at 0.1% chance is still a stupid skill, regardless how low is the chance of success.
So the problem isn’t anymore about the balance, just you finding it stupid?
Well, that’s just your opinion, then.
He’s whining about the effect without considering the context, costs and dangers of actively using it. That are the factors that make it balanced.
Nah I just want the BFG 9000. That’ll work.
Considering that it would use asuran technology, i’m not sure that would be a good idea. It would backfire, like, every second blast.
This is also true. Engineer’s access to swiftness and immunity to cripple, immobilize, and chill (AR) allow them to easily kite melee damage while at just below 25% hp nullifying quite a bit of melee damage. On the other-hand, engineers have quite an arsenal of immobilize and cripple. This creates killing an engineer difficult even for some power builds.
Regarding the main weapon, either you have a block (p/s) or an immobilize (rifle or p/p) that can cripple in the case of glue shot.
Regarding utilities…there are some, but they are all in different kits or utilities. We may have a good variety, but either we take those or we take stun breakers/condition removals/other.
I would like if there was a frostthrower – an ice-based, defensive version of the flamethrower. Maybe even via traits (it could add that functionality to the flamethrower, making it so you can swap the functionality via the toolbelt). The autoattack could chill, the second attack could shoot a frozen ball that shatters on impact (dealing a strong single hit on impact and some lesser damage via aoe), the third attack could be the same as air blast (but since it shoots cold air, it would extend chill), the fourth attack could make you place an ice wall that blocks passage with a little ice field (let’s say, 4s duration) that melts into a water field (2s). And the last attack, well, dunno…maybe it could shoot the refrigerator liquid around in a sort of player-centered AoE, creating a poddle that damages enemies while they stay there.
Assuming it was implemented with the “toggle” method i mentioned above, juggernaut’s effect may be different as well when the frostthrower is toggled up. It could give 2s protection every 5s, for example, to emphatize the defensive nature of the weapon.
The cooldowns would be indipendent for the two weapons, but since you toggle them via the toolbelt you would still have to wait for it to be charged up.
So your saying you would kill yourself by auto attacking a guardian with retaliation on, and the guardian just standing there…
Seems legit.
Your missing the entire point though I don’t think he factors in burning.
Sharp said Retal was foe aoes.
Lettuce be real tea right now. Who thinks Necro Marks or stuff like Phoenix/Dragon, Tooth, engi bombs, get deterred anywhere near say Engi grenades, barrage, flame jet, firestorm, melee cleave in HB, PW, BF, Whirling axe/wrath, etc.
It doesn’t. Retaliation deters more than anything multi-hit aoe, which always deals its damage over an extended time frame and allows you to walk the hell out or break LOS during its time frame.The things broken, nerf it or rework it.
Actually i was factoring it in. But since i was talking about base stats, burning deals something like 328 hp.Add 600-700 hp for the base attack itself (the damage i was dealing to a light golem, so i’m overestimating here) and add a little bit for the 10% bonus damage done with flame jet while the opponent is burning (another overestimation, cause it would burn for half of the attack).
Imho, our traits – especially grandmaster ones – should make kits more versatile, not simply power them up. Like, modifying kits to give them a different usage, maybe changing the toolbelt in a sort of “toggle modification” when the related trait is acquired.
So your saying you would kill yourself by auto attacking a guardian with retaliation on, and the guardian just standing there…
Seems legit.
You’re free to test for yourself, but as far as base stats say, the result would be similar to that.
And this is taking in account a single person with retaliation; flame jet hits up to three target. So, in the worse case – that is actually the case where flame jet should be used – divide that time by three. So, around 5 seconds for the engineer to suicide himself.
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Than the:
“16029 hp damage just by retaliation”
“2671 per attack”Situation is when you are attacking three players at once, and not just one. So those numbers would make sense if divided by three according to your results.
“890 per attack”
“5343 hp dmg just by retaliation”
As i said above, we were talking about a timeframe of 5 seconds before, so 2 autoattacks. You’re mixing together two different calculations. The first was the worst case with the minimum power in that timeframe – 60 hits, thus 2 autoattacks versus 3 targets. That is, 16029 hp with base power.
The second one was the retaliation versus a single target with a single autoattack. Thus 2671.5 (i omitted the .5 before).
*I want to point out that the amount of Retaliation dmg done is based on the Power of the Guardian.
I supposed it was based on the power of the attacker, so it appears i was wrong about that. This makes it even worse, though, cause it directly punishes the number of hits without making any distinction about the source. I still think that reflecting a percentage of the damage done would make more sense.
When your outputting how much dmg in those five seconds?, while taking into account your HP vs the Guardians HP.
I can’t understand exactly what are you asking, but let’s assume there is a fight where the guardian doesn’t directly attack the engineer but just maintain retaliation for enough time.
As i said, versus a light golem i was able to do around 600/700 with base power, plus burning, with a single autoattack. Let’s assume i do 1100 damage total – more than what i would really do with base stats, with a little bit added to account for the 10% bonus vs. opponent who are burning.
I will still take at least 2671.5 damage (retaliation with base power, 10 hits).
Engineer’s base hp at level 80 is 15082, Guardian’s one is 10805. Assuming that the guardian doesn’t directly attack the engineer but just maintain retaliation for enough time, the engineer will get downed after the sixth attack, just by retaliation alone – so, after around 13.5s. The guardian will be alive with around 4200hp. And i was overestimating the damage dealt, remind that.
The practice would be even worse, anyway. You should have to account about the sustain, regens, the scaling of the autoattack (and it scales quite bad with power) and so on.
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Something that wouldn’t be exactly bad – untraited grenades are quite lackluster. On the other side you would take more damage via retaliation than before with untraited grenades, while dealing the same damage…
But be getting more chance to proc trait effects
That’s true as well. There would be both good and bad aftereffects, basically.
Something that wouldn’t be exactly bad – untraited grenades are quite lackluster. On the other side you would take more damage via retaliation than before with untraited grenades, while dealing the same damage…
You get a bunch of damage only if you are bad enough to not stop the cast once you realize you’re dying from retal. That’s the punishment because you didn’t cared about the enemy boons.
Also, Flame Jet inflict also burning. You did not dealt less damage than retaliation.
Even if i cancel the autoattack, i’ve already got a retaliation hit for every hit i’ve already inflicted.
And flame jet inflicts burning only on the last hit – and on a single target, but i may be wrong about this. So if i cancel it – no burning at all. But even considering that, we’re talking about a single tick of burning every 2.25s.
Im sorry, Im no mathmatician, but how would one go about getting 30 hits per single auto attack?
Flame jet does 10 hits in 2.25s, and it can hit a max of 3 targets. So, up to 30 hits.
We were talking about a timeframe of 5 seconds, so around 60 at max if there are three targets. And that autoattack behaves best with multiple targets – be there 1 or 3, i always deal the same damage per each one. So it is quite low versus a single foe, and can be somehow decent versus three…but having more people also raises the chance of them getting retaliation in some way.
Also;
“16029 hp damage just by retaliation”
“2671 per attack”As a guardian who has been a guardian since Headstart, I have never seen any where near those numbers you pulled out of somewhere, into actual game play….
So you explain to me how one crit hit can hit me one time for 4-8k dmg, and my retaliation while up hits the attacker for 200-300 dmg one time; and how it adds up with the numbers you presented.
Cause retaliation punishes per hit, and not per attack; when there are skills with multiple hits, the attacker get punished for every single hit – up to 30 with a single attack in flame jet’s case, cause it can do up to 30 hits. In the example above we were talking about 5 seconds and three opponents, so 60 hits done by flame jet, and thus by retaliation.
Since retaliation doesn’t take in account the damage dealt, but rather the power of the attacker, when someone attacks with skills that do multiple weak hits – like flame jet – you have this bizarre situation where the hits do negligible damage – cause the skill coefficent per hit is pretty low – but retaliation hits back using an higher modifier than the single hits of the skill used, thus the attacker gets an higher damage than the one he dealt.
You don’t even need to see the boon on your enemy.
You just need to see the huge icon popping on your character’s head and stop casting Flame Jet.If you can’t use your autoattack, you can still use all of your other skills in the time window retaliation is up.
Then i’ve already got a good bunch of damage – quite more than the one i’ve dealt to the enemy. And this can happen every time i try attacking with it.
If any one in GW2 dies from 5 seconds of Retaliation hits, there is something wrong with the player…
You mean to tell the PvP community that 200-300 per hit of retaliation over 5 seconds is going to kill you?
GG
You can get up to 30 hits with multiple enemies – that means, 30 hits of retaliation per a single autoattack. Let’s even suppose we are talking about a char with the bare minimum power – 916. Retaliation damage per hit is 267,15.
In 5 seconds you can do at least 2 autoattacks, so a max of 60 hits. That alone can give you up to 16029 hp damage just by retaliation. Ok, it won’t kill you alone…but it is still too much for a passive effect, seeing as the damage done by the autoattack is abysmal.
More realistically you will be toward a single enemy, and it will still be harmful anyway – the flamethrower is balanced toward dealing with multiple enemies, so the autoattack is actually quite low versus a single enemy. And you will still get up to 2671 per attack, while doing quite less than that damage – around 600 or 700 total damage versus a light golem, cause i’m testing it just now (i’m still assuming you have no other power than the base one – obviously, increasing your power also directly increases retaliation damage).
As i said, retaliation is far too harsh toward multi-hit autoattacks and relatively useless toward the other types. A percentage of the damage would be quite more fair.
The first one is a solution, even if you don’t like it – you fight as a team, not alone. And once you discover who has got that trait, you can simply avoid that player or deal just the starting condi burst and leave the rest to your partner. And it will end rather quickly.
And they can do that only if they have elixir c, basically. Cleansing burst would risk putting you above the treshhold and the other ones heal just single conditions.
And that’s assuming they won’t be forced to go above the treshhold again before that elixir recharges – cause if that happen, they’re definitely dead.
I know, i know: you’ll say “but they will have elixir R to ress themselves”. There are counters for that too, but beside that…whoever uses all those elixirs together without HGH? You would really have no offense at all with a similar setup, and that’s why no one does it – especially since you would still lack a stun break, so you would basically end with no weapons beside that main one (unless you take the elixir gun, but it is more like a support weapon for the party)
There is no team perma-retaliation in reality.
Even if there was perma retaliation, you still have 4 other skills on your bar (even more in the case of engineer) that you can use without wiping your whole HP bar.It’s your fault if you use a single skill which is capable to kill you. It’s your fault because you didn’t noticed that the whole enemy team had retaliation on.
You don’t need perma retaliation. 5 seconds can be enough to make an engineer kill himself. Also, people may get retaliation while we are attacking, or just some enemy could have it – and you can’t just see every single boon on every enemy to do a single attack.
And so no one even tries to use that autoattack, even if it is supposed to be used versus multiple enemies. We are supposed to stay in that kit for prolonged times if we get the juggernaut trait, yet we can’t even use the autoattack cause it is more harmful for us than the enemies.
Every profession is capable to combo finishing into a light field and, also, Guardian isn’t the only profession with light field.
Sure, but we were talking about guardians right now, and they are the profession with the major amount of light fields (coupled with a low-cooldown blast finisher like the one mentioned above means being able to spam retaliation around quite a lot).
And obviously everyone can blast those fields for that same effect, thus giving even more retaliation to themselves and allies.
In the case of the flamethrower’s autoattack, it means having up to 30 hits of retaliation per a single autoattack. Two autoattacks done so could kill an engineer without the enemies even attacking him.
While doing negligible damage to the enemies.
It is already balanced. 25% hp are quite few hp anyway and you’re still subject to control skills beside fear. And staying at less than 25% hp means you’re a walking target for burst damage.
It counters heavily specialized condition builds while putting yourself in severe danger toward any build with some power. You can notice it more now just because everyone and his brother runs a full-condi necro. Just call someone else in your team to fight this opponent.
And if your team is made just of full-condi characters, it is just your team’s fault.
You’re conveniently forgetting to mention that area retaliation is also given by blast finishers in light combo fields.
And guardians have got a lot of light combo fields. And one* 5s cooldown blast finisher with the hammer – mighty blow.
*Edited to reword a part that got accidentally censored.
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A trait like Juggernaut directly opposes that juggling behaviour, though. Both the effects require you to stay in the kit for a relevant amount of time to benefit from it – either to maintain the stacks or to defend from enemies with the improved toughness.
And that means you’ll also have to use the autoattack now and then.
Oh, again this thread.
It is a build-defining trait. You have to spec as a bunker to use it decently – else you won’t have either enough hp to use it (even with soldier’s gear, vit/toughness runes and obviously traited in vitality – cause the trait is there, you will have around 6600 hp) or enough defense to resist at that low hp treshhold. And in any case, you won’t deal any decent damage.
Sure, you are quite powerful versus heavy-specced condition users – as long as you stay below that treshhold. But at the same time you will be killed by any power-based burst. And if you heal above the treshhold you are prone to a condi-burst that will surely kill you at that point. Basically, a heavily specialized counter to heavily specialized condition users.
Now, since this is a team-based game, what about asking another member – a power-based one – to take care about it?
Any combination of thief weapons has either got blinds, shadowsteps or evades. And if those go wrong, they will still have means to stealth. They have alternate means of defending themselves even with their endurance drained, and that’s by design.
Warriors have got better base hp and armor than engineers. So even if they take more damage with frenzy, they are still relatively sturdy to begin with.
Both of them have got drawbacks pertinent to the class itself, and that’s without counting skills or traits, despite what you can say about that. Heh, frenzy was also a GW1 skill of the warrior, even if the drawback was more severe.
And beside that they still know the drawback beforehand, while we must act on the moment.
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You have to remember that any projectile finisher that goes through the field also causes burning, so it can also add burning by shooting rifle or pistol skills through it.
That’s true indeed. But how many enemies will stay behind it? As an area denial it doesn’t deny much, the enemies will rather come directly to the engineer.
Sure, you may put it into a point and try kiting in circle, so that if the enemy follows you he gets burned a bit. The form of the aoe makes it a bit unconfortable, though.
Don’t worry, the one true king returns every Halloween.
Mad King Thorn captain councilor 2013!
Well, he can’t be assassinated, this seems already a good point to vote for him.
So basically, while those other classes can deal with the drawbacks simply because they are tailored for them, you would say that the possibility of traiting specifically to reduce the random drawbacks given by that single skill makes it good and fine?
Absolutely not.
Retaliation is well designed, I think it is intended to punish low-damage many-hits skill.
It doesn’t just punish them. Some of those are basically harmful just for the user in front of retaliation. Like some multi-hit autoattacks, that are rendered basically unusable. Try using the flamethrower’s autoattack versus opponents with retaliation.
And they can get it while you’re channeling the autoattack anyway, so just seeing if they’ve got it before you attack may not save you.
First off, multi-hits skills benefits from on-crit traits and sigils. An Unload of a Thief is capable to trigger the Opportunist trait 2 times in a cast, lowering the effective cost of the skill to only 2 initiative, not to talk all the Sigils with low internal cooldown, like Strenght, Frailty and Earth.
Regarding the traits, the effect depends on the class. And some of those have got cooldowns as well.
And as you said, those sigils have got cooldowns too. Usually too long to have some decent advantage in comboing them with multi-hit skills.
Also, multi-hit skills does not suffer from Aegis and dodges that much, as it is way easier to avoid a single big hit than an higher amount of damage spread in a larger time window.
Not many classes have got aegis. But while i can concede that dodges are less efficent toward multi-hit attacks, not all of them actually deal high amounts of damage. Not every multi-hit skill is an hundred blades.
Multi-hit skills have a lower damage variance, making multi hit skills more reliable compared to single big hits, since each single hit as a chance to be a critical hit.
And retaliation doesn’t make any distinction about them being critical or not, as it stands now. They can be all crits with 150% critical damage or no crits at all, but what counts is the power of the attacker, and just that.
If Retaliation worked like you’re suggesting, high damaging single hits would be less valuable compared to low damaging multiple hits.
It would deal a percentage of the damage. That means that doing 5k damage in a single hit or kittens with 1k damage each would give back the same exact retaliation damage to the attacker.
We don’t have “the same option”, though. We have one of them at random, and that’s exactly the problem. One that isn’t solved by a 10s lower cooldown.
Also, we’re talking about skills tailored to different classes, forcibly transposed into an engineer skill.
A warrior has got heavy armour and hp. And he knows he will get hurt more in exchange for an higher dps. Still, he will be able to dodge if needed.
Thieves are more squishy, sure. But they can work around the endurance penalty via evades (inbuilt into some attacks) and eventually, if needed, stealth.
We haven’t got neither heavy armor, high hp or evades and the only reliable stealth we can get is via combo fields. And neither we can know the drawback in advance. And both of them can be quite situational. But whereas warriors and thieves know beforehand what they will get, thus being able to use them in the correct situation, we must pray to the rng to not get the wrong drawback.
TL;DR: drawbacks tailored for different situations and rng together don’t go well.
The auto-attack on the FT is abysmal. Everything else about the kit is pretty good.
Gotta quote this. But i would say this is true for the other autoattacks as well – except traited grenades.
Albeit, napalm could be spiced up a little. I mean, it is used more for the fire field that for its primary effect – cause 1s burning on such a thin wall isn’t exactly what it can be called a menacing threat. Sure, it may be good on downed people…but just because they can’t usually move from there.
Imho, its design is flawed. It should reflect a percentage of the damage done. As it is now, it is useless toward big damaging skills and extremely harsh versus weak multi-hit attacks.
Jack of all trades, masters of none.
And that’s also the problem itself.
I’ve beaten Adnul at the second try. Ok, i had luck.
Imho, though, the matter is that they shouldn’t be able to use the signature more times during the match.
only thing that would do is shift the meta to boon ripping followed by CC. and then people would whine again.
Make it a power-up with the same effect, but not removable by any mean (apart from stealth and transformations, maybe, cause having a non-removable stability and stealth (or transformations) together may be too much). Maybe they could give, like, a 15s or 20s duration. And it could be put in the middle of the road between point A/C, but by passing from above.
This way you’ve got to actively get it, it can’t be abused by people defending the point (that would require them to leave the point) and it would give, like, a 10s (they have to travel to the point, this takes a little time) where the attackers can’t be instantly knockbacked into oblivion.
Also, the only panel they may have to remove, imho, should be the one furthest from the point A/C. The one that can be more easily abused by stealth pulls, basically.
Also, if people want to try pulling the enemy, they should necessarily pass from the back side (there is still a panel there and the other one near the propeller) but during that time, the stability will have already been depleted.
It offered something different from the same, stale meta. People whine about the current meta and when there is a map that offers an alternative, they still whine.
Sure, i would like too to see it back, but…can’t do much about that.