Guild Wars 2

g e o.2589:

Engineers have 6 kits, with no cd for use of them.

And? We were talking about skills not being exclusive to classes. As i said, some already aren’t – and they’re also quite cheap to get. Oh, sure, the flamethrower differs in a couple skills, but the medical kit seems identical to the engineer’s one.

g e o.2589:

Oh come on people, you’re being stupid. First you wanted a portal like mesmers have, you wanted it so bad that some of you said that if others didnt get it, then it shouldnt be in game. Now you got the portal, yes it is expensive because Anet wants Mesmers to feel special again that we have such skill. So please just stop whining because you make yourselves look like pigs

And yet everyone can get a flamethrower or a med kit for a few coppers…

pulsecodesgnl.3470:

It does invalidate it by definition. It is no longer profession specific, that is the point of a profession specific skill. Unless they balance it across the board by sharing everyone elses skills, I’d rather they just give Mesmers a new skill that we can actually use outside of portalbombing in combat.

Then they are already doing it – engineers’ Flamethrower and Med Kit are already available to all the classes via consumable items.

Uh, i wrongly assumed it was a “portal” as in “gate to go in a town”. Guess it isn’t that useful then.

The guardian’s hammer does that. Ring of warding (light field, 40s cooldown) and Mighty Blow (blast finisher, 5s cooldown).
And as with the flamethrower, there is a trait to further reduce the cooldowns.

Fenrir.5493:

Yes burning should be only on warriors,eles and guardians since they have poor acces to conditions, then nerf it.

So you’re saying an engineer’s flamethrower shouldn’t burn at all?

cymerdown.4103:

Engineer

• Elixir R: Increased the cooldown to 45 seconds. It is now an instant stun breaker. “Toss Elixir R” now revives 12% per pulse, down from 20%. Eliminating Elixir R as a stun breaker restricted Engineer builds to a severe degree, when all that was really needed was a reduction on its revive power so that (for instance) an Engineer can be finished in a 1v1 without having a very good chance to self-revive. Adjusting its revival power would keep its utility as a team res assist without making Engis as hard to finish in 1v1 and 2v2 situations.

You do realize that “having a very good chance of self-revive” is exactly the point of that skill?
It has got quite a long base cooldown – 120s, it targets quite a small area and you can already counter it via CC, poison (if it worked properly) and eventually using launches when the target is downed. Basically, instead of having a cast time and an instant effect, it has got an “instant” cast and an effect that takes some time.
And since the actual duration isn’t too long, you’ve also got to time its use wisely (too soon and it won’t last enough when you will be downed, too late and you’ll get downed before actually using it).
If after these drawbacks it doesn’t even have that “very good chance” when it correctly goes off, well, then it would be quite useless.
Especially since we already have a weak utility to compensate for it (just compare Elixir R with Signet of Agility). And even putting the stunbreak back (and thus increasing the cooldown) wouldn’t change too much – it would still be relatively weak for the effects it provides.

kito.1827:

the only issue on hight difference i faced was that the opponent was pulled to me but then suddenly catapulted up in the air – was funny to watch :P but not that annoying and didnt appeared very often.
now, with the recent changes – besides i dont get why you changed it, because it was far from op with animation and casttime – there are some issues.
i saw an enemy get knocked down, but not pulled to me. another time the enemy was pulled to a location some meters besides me.
one time i pulled, he got interrupted and knocked but not pulled – i thought not again – ran to his location and suddenly he was where i casted the pull.

the issues mainly appear at locations with slightly different height

sawy fo mah english

Interestingly enough, according to the wiki, those issues seems to be present on Scorpion Wire too.
Guess they may have simply copypasted the code…and with it, the bugs.

Aberrant.6749:

Manuhell.2759:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/Engineer-s-magnet/2487242

Strangely enough, this change/nerf wasn’t listed on the patch notes.

OMG ty for at least clearing up why my magnet pulls have been so inconsistent as of the patch.

It’s most definitely a nerf though… with nothing to compensate for the new limitations : / It really should get a shorter cast time now.

Oh, i already asked for a proper autoattack on grenades on that thread. Cause you know, it is inconsistent with how the other autoattacks work. Obviously they will change it as well. It isn’t like they changed magnet to nerf us, so it won’t be a problem if they ease up grenades’ use (and help avoiding carpal tunnels).

Yasi.9065:

4. Forcing people to rinse and repeat this game for days to get 2,500 points reminds a lot of certain asian mmos.

Quoted for truth.
I don’t like the game at all, but if i want the achievement i will have to play it for several, several hours. And being a time-limited achievement i will have to do it in these weeks.
The only thing i’m achieving here is a nervous breakdown.

Deified.7520:

Eh, it’s a very very easy animation to spot, on top of seeing a line going towards you. I can understand in WvW, but then again there is so much going on in there it is hard to ready any of that stuff. You can dodge it, it is not undodgeable.

Got to quote this.
Obvious animation and relatively long cast time for a skill that has the sole effect of pulling an enemy – unlike the other skills mentioned.
And while we do have the other skills in the kit, they don’t come cheap – we’ve got a single weapon slot and main weapon damage is nerfed in account of our versatility, according to the class balance philosophies in the 14 december patch.

And by the way, grenades are also inconsistent (in that they have no proper autoattack). I assume those will be fixed as well soon, then.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/Engineer-s-magnet/2487242

Strangely enough, this change/nerf wasn’t listed on the patch notes.

Imho, as a grandmaster trait, it is quite bad – also due of the trait tree it is located in, since it is basically a defensive trait in a non-defensive tree .
The grandmaster tier should be the one where build-defining traits are located, but i can’t see anything build-defining in having 50% more endurance (outside having made you spend 30 points). I would rather see it as a master major.

I’ve got people lefting the party before even starting Aetherblade Retreat cause they thought it wasn’t possible to get the 15 minute achievement with an engineer. Guess it kinda says enough.

And i had already got that, anyway; with a sturdier party…cause the important part in that fight was having sustained dps and not people agonizing on the floor every 10 seconds.

And turrets are still broken. But hey, at least Launch Ice Mortar recharges properly now.

Edit: also, by changing the last skill, you can’t “launch” enemies anymore. It seems overall they decreased the CC capabilities of that elite.
Not that it matters much – it isn’t like we can choose what we get anyway…

When using a rifle you would rather go with the 10% bonus, though – much more reliable, and doesn’t depend on anything.

Obscure One.4357:

Specialized build = Specialized counter-build.

It’s called preserving game balance. Discounting that there’s still 40 trait points that’re apparently not going to make any difference in build composition in your arguement. This discredits the argument without me needing to do so.

Yeah, they won’t make any difference, despite all you can say (that is, nothing, as it appears).
Cause if you’re going for an offensive build either you don’t put points on vitality, or you get HGH – and if your AR is still a grandmaster trait, you can’t do it. But even so, you would have to find a compromise – we’ve got the trait regarding protection on disable and all the ones regarding elixirs there.
If you’re going for a defensive one, you’re spending too much about a debatable defense regarding conditions in a class that still lacks passive removals, on-demand access on protection and decent access to stability. You can’t do much with the trait points about this issue anyway. You can use those other 2 utilities in the way you prefer – you’ll have to get a stun breaker probably, and another weapon. But it would be useless anyway, cause you lack the offense necessary to kill your opponent and you will die in the long run.
Let’s be serious, the engineer is outclassed by guardians in every area as a bunker. Aegis, access to protection, retaliation and stability, sustain; and they are free to take a second weapon for CC skills, like an hammer, on top on having a main hand+shield.
The only thing we may be able to do better is bunkering versus heavily specialized condition builds with the current AR, and even then doing so makes us extremely vulnerable to power builds.
Remove the current AR, and we can avoid bunkering altogether. We would have to specialize to be still…master of none. And why even bother, then?

Obscure One.4357:

That is of course not to mention my suggestion doesn’t discount the possibility (and likelihood) of turning Automated Response into a master tier trait, broadening build diversity.

So you would rather overhaul it completely. As i said above, with the class as it is now, such a change would make the engineer completely useless as a bunker compared to the guardians. You wouldn’t broad anything anyway – the class would still lack passive removals and you would still be obliged in taking elixir C (not to talk about how a mess would be that tree – we already have got a lot of traits competing there).
An heavy investment to be still master of none.

Now, what i would ask is: are we perhaps supposed to be bad in everything we do even when we heavily specialize in something? Cause according to the people that want this trait nerfed, that is exactly how we should be. If a comparison with another class has us with the upper hand, then people whine for nerfs. When the other classes have got something better than us, then it is all fine and good.

sorrow.2364:

And this, folks, is why you can’t consider the posts of those guys unbiased.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Elixir_C
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Cleansing_Burst
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Super_Elixir
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Toss_Elixir_R + Projectile Finisher
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Cleaning_Formula_409
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Transmute

Then we have Automated Response.
But I guess that condition cleansing isn’t the same as condition immunity.

And this is why you’re terribly biased .
Aside from Transmute and Cleansing Formula the one you’ve linked are all active – and Cleansing Formula triggers on an active elixir skill anyway.
Transmute doesn’t even cleanse instead.
Transmute can convert an incoming condition – that means that already inflicted ones are still there. It won’t cleanse a burning that is already there if it triggers on a burning, but i’ll just convert the new one in a boon. On a 8% chance. On a grandmaster minor trait.
Then we have the active skills – and all of them are in different utilities.
Super Elixir cleanses a single one; Cleansing burst cleanses two – and that’s assuming the turret lives enough to process it.
But the most stupid thing there is
Toss elixir R: who would waste it for the cleansing effect? Beside you, i mean.

Now go there and see for yourself the traits who grants passive removal.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Condition_removal#Traits_that_remove_conditions

And beside all of this there are also signets, who often have a passive single condition cleanse every X seconds.

Obscure One.4357:

This argument is shortsighted. Runes of Melandru plus lemongrass poultry soup would stack with this reduction for a condition to boon conversion with 105%(100% is presumed to be the maximum) condition duration reduction for 10 seconds. In sPvP this translates to a condition to boon conversion with a -65% condition duration since food cannot be used (Rune of Hoelbrak would be the better option for 70% reduction). Of which could be used twice as this would be the function of Elixir C as well as the trait. A total of 20 seconds of up time which, when Fast Acting Elixirs and Potent Elixirs are put into the equation, becomes a highly sustainable option.

Please present your future baseless accusations of worthlessness with mechanical support instead of arbitrary dismissal. Saves me time refuting them thusly.

Edit: numerical errors

You’ve spent all your runes, almost half of the trait points and an utility slot just to decrease the condition damage dealt by the enemy, for a definite uptime. Half of that is actually triggered by the enemy, that can waste it at his leisure (and since you build all around that trait, basically making your build worthless). And you haven’t still got nothing to defeat your enemy or to protect yourself when the uptime isn’t up – we lack passive removals. And it is near useless toward power builds – its activation at 25% hp will be basically wasted toward them. You can’t stack might decently – you’ve no hgh after all – and no reliable ways of getting protection – no protection injection, no protection from runes, you can at most get around 4s protection every 20s when critted. Along with no stability, of course, unless you use elixir X. Also, you still lack a stun break.
You lack the offense necessary for an offensive build – cause we’re supposed to use HGH for that purpose if we’re going for the elixir tree.
And you lack the defensive measures necessary for a bunker – cause you’ve spent too much to make up for the poor grandmaster trait in a class that has already got poor passive condition removal, no reliable protection and near to no stability. And thus would be outclassed in every area by a guardian bunker.

You suggested an useless alternative. Why do you compare engineers with warriors? We haven’t got their burst capabilities, especially without HGH – and they take the same grandmaster slot. Getting it in a bunker build would be useless – we lack passive condition removals and the only full one we’ve got is elixir C – and getting it in an offensive one would be useless as well – you are already giving up HGH for that and you’ve spent almost half of the trait points in defensive stats.

A trait like the one Obscure proposes would be near useless. Unless we specifically trait for it – and that usually requires HGH, the alternate grandmaster trait of the same tree – the burst capabilities of the class are non-existant. Giving 10s of reduced condition damage/duration would just delay our death, cause we won’t kill anyone during that timeframe, especially after we’ve spent almost half of our trait point to take that.
And we would still have to slot condition removals anyway – the only passive one we’ve got is transmute, an 8% chance of converting incoming ones in boons (that means it doesn’t actually remove anything preexistant, it just randomly converts some of the stacks we’re receiving).
So it would be useless for offensive purposes, and useless for defensive ones. One would just use a guardian for that purpose then.

Obscure One.4357:

ANet has already demonstrated a malleable approach to traits and this sort of thing would fit within that style of game updating and rebalancing.

Yeah, like with Kit Refinement, sure.

Because as we have been saying all the time it is an extremely specialized counter for other extremely specialized builds – full condi ones.
That trait is there since the launch, and no one ever complained about it before simply because the meta wasn’t this condition heavy. These days everyone and his brother use condition builds, so people can use that trait with more success.

Considering we’re almost at 4k views and there are like 3 or 4 players whining about the trait, i wouldn’t say the problem is about the engineer posters.
If other people had some problem with it they would have posted here, after all. Instead there are always the same people asking for a nerf.

I’ve thought about something that could be an engineer’s version of a signet.
We could call them “Gizmo” (yes, i know that it is too similar to the gadgets, but i couldn’t come with a better term). Basically, items that an engineer would put on and that would give passive effects – eventually with drawbacks associated.
They would have no cooldown, but high enough cast times and any attack would interrupt them – basically this would avoid being able to toggle them on and off at will while engaged in active combat, so that the drawbacks are actually relevant.
Let’s go with an actual example.

Utility:Iron Boots 3s cast time
Grants (level*1) toughness, Cripple and Defiant – one stack
Toolbelt:Magnetic Force 60s
Pulls enemy to your location (600 range) and deals some (low) damage.

Basically, like the monsters with that ability, you would block a CC skill, be vulnerable to another one, block one and so on. The drawback is that you would be crippled while this skill is active – so the mobility would be severely limited. The toolbelt would help circumvent the drawback…but due to the high cooldown, it would be used every now or then.
I can’t say if a similar ability would be balanced, but it is just an example about the concept.

And he would have died if the opponent condi-bursted him one of the many times he was above the 25% treshhold – since there are times in the video when it happens with elixir C on cooldown – but i may assume his friend didn’t knew at all about the trait, thus neither how to counter it.
Even so, the fight could have been staged – exactly as the one with the engineer dying, since they already assumed it died on purpose. As i said before, either you hold accountable every video, or you don’t trust any of them.

And regarding the issue with the raw damage of skills inflicting conditions – if there is a bug, it should be fixed, and just that.

What if they gave you access to an home instance in Lion’s Arch as a prize for having completed the personal story?
I mean, you aren’t the mighty and esteemed Trahearne, but as his faithful lackey you would still deserve at least some accomplishment in the form of a place to stay during your travels.

Dog.1472:

While this may be true if you use a normal mouse/keyboard, it isn’t true at all if you use gaming specific peripherals and customize your interface as I do.

A nade Engi is very realistic and incredibly fun to those that know what they’re doing.

That would means using macros, though. Kind of a gray area – harmless for the game in practice but technically still a bannable offense.
And you shouldn’t be supposed to use specialized peripherals to play normally, anyway.

Every time some player talks about engineer dps and grenades, my hands hurt.
Seriously, ever tried using a grenade engineer? No autoattack, you’ve got to spam every- single-one of them. Now do that all the time while playing. You’re basically asking for a carpal tunnel syndrome doing so.
Such a build isn’t feasible in the long run – for your health.

ronpierce.2760:

And people agreed impossible to kill isnt fun. AR is t skill based at all. If they changed it to like I said a full condi clear and 6’sec immunity on a 60 sec cd, it would be more skill based because it saves you, acts as a clutch but survival for a time would be up to you. That’s the problem. It’s fine to be bunkery and hard to kill, but just writing someone off because you’re immune to all of their damage isn’t good for balance.

Such a change would be extremely bad for bunkers – who surely aren’t able to kill the opponent in those 6 seconds – and bad for more offensive build as well – who either wouldn’t get 30 points in vitality or would simply get HGH and related traits instead.
Basically it would make it worthless, especially cause the class itself already lacks some decent passive condition removal, unlike other classes usually used as bunkers.

Also, i already explained why a power/physical immunity would be quite different, and more powerful.

Med.6150:

All you have to do is watch Engineers 1v1 each other at the top of the leaderboards. These guys are supposed to know everything about their class, yet 95% of the time both Engineers manage to get a rally from their Elixir R. Why do they not use their CC? Why can’t they of all classes prevent it most of the time?

Take a look at this friendly 1v1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=juMtKq7mh6U

Teldo vs. Super. Super goes down in his Elixir first while Teldo doesn’t go down in his own, because Super’s down state damage doesn’t knock him down. Teldo loses the 1v1, because he now finds himself at a disadvantage by actually not going down (silly right?).

Why didn’t Super use his downstate #2 ability to pull Teldo out of his Elixir R? Luck trumps skills in this case.

Not only are these two considered top notch players (and I think Teldo is just that), but the mechanics of this skill are incredibly counter-intuitive, if the guy going into down state first actually gains an advantage from it.

As i said above, it is a skill shot – putting it too soon comes with the risk of depleting it before you get downed. Both decided to go with the same strategy, but Super did it right.
And, well, the engineer downed state damage is terrible, that is kinda well known. Regarding why Super didn’t pull him, we should ask him about that – it could have been a deliberate choice, especially if he counted on non-dealing enough damage to Teldo.

Imho, a good part of this skill’s success is due to the condition meta. You can time your death better with lasting effects than having to rely on your opponent direct damage to get downed. In the second case it would also be easier to counter the elixir R’s mechanic – cause if the engi needs direct damage to get downed, then he’s in a stalemate if you go toward him to push him out (like in the example above).

And let’s end this wall of text with a note regarding the counter-intuitiveness of elixir R: we are engineers, making simple things complicated is part of our work.

P.S.: i had to write two posts in the end, it was really too long. XD

Med.6150:

For me the change was a buff to Incendiary Powder. They may have decreased the potential uptime, but what increased was the potential damage per shot and the amount of time you had to commit to dealing damage to have access to burning.

Mh, i can’t agree, at least regarding engineers. Due of having multiple skills with multi-hit attacks, the probability of scoring a critical is also higher. Condition builds often use grenades – and grenadier is in that same tree. But even the flamethrower could theoretically be fine, or coated bullets as well (all the trait for the main weapons are in the firearms tree after all – the one that gives both condition damage and precision).
Activating it was never a problem. You were able to activate even 3 times before, thus having a longer uptime. But beside that, the change was made to make it easier to be cleansed – it is a single 4s burning instead of multiple shorter ones.

Med.6150:

Exactly my point.

Theoretical uptime on these traits is less important than potential damage per skill activation. I’d rather have a guaranteed 20k damage every minute minute than a 8k hit every 10 seconds. I have a good grasp on balance, as I have been playing games for a long time and have actually worked with designers on class balance for successful games in the past.

If they were to make Dhumfire and Incendiray Powder a 1 second burn on crit with a 1 second ICD, I’d be all for it. Power classes have been phased out of this game, because damage comes with a higher time commitment, as the potential damage per skill activation means you have less excess time to dedicate to survival and preparation.

It would be too strong for condition damage/precision builds and too bad for any build who didn’t have enough precision – basically a build defining trait on an adept slot. Also, it would make it useless to even try cleansing it in the first case.
I would say it is better how it is now – a single application every 10 seconds, and just that. Well, different point of views.

Med.6150:

You realize that there are very few classes with access to stability, right? The Engineer is no exception. With the sole difference that they are lucky enough to have huge access to CC, which is used to secure a Elixir R rally against classes with no stability and much less CC.

We have quite a lot of possibilities for CC, sure. That doesn’t mean we can take all of them for free. Often we must give up offensive capabilities in order to get those CC skills. And some of them work in strange ways (Big Ol’ Bomb, Throw Mine and Overcharged Shot, for example).

Anyway, if the engineer was able to put the elixir down, is dying via conditions (else he would need to be damaged asap, so he can’t afford to CC you) and uses a CC skill for that exact purpose…i would say he did do a skill shot. Same if the opponent evaded the CC cause he expected it and used a CC skill on the engineer to push him out of the area – the engineer can’t dodge anyway, he would go out of the AoE doing so.

Regarding incendiary powder, it was already changed to make it so it applies less pressure. Before it was 33% chance on crit to do 2s burning, 3s internal cooldown.
And i don’t see why they should change how on-crit traits work just for two of them, especially when there are other traits that do exactly the same thing (just go read for yourself the list of traits that apply burning…some of them haven’t even got an internal cooldown).
Regarding poison, it should be fixed asap.
Regarding Elixir R, to paraphrase you, “It is an insult to my intelligence watching opponents that let an engineer set himself up in a small area without doing anything instead of using CC skills versus a class that has near to no reliable access to stability”.
So many people whining, and almost no one that counters it properly. It is basically a gamble, one that engineers often win due of the incompetence of the opponents.
You can use CC skills when you see them using it, you can launch them when they are downed, you could – if it worked properly – use poison when they are downed to reduce their healing.
Fixing the bugs – like the one you mentioned in the last paragraph – is fine. Changing how a skill work because the opponents are bad, is not. It is a skill play – you’ve got to time it exactly to outsmart your opponent, else either you risk it depleting before you gets downed or you get downed before using it – counter it with skill and not asking for nerfs.

The only thing i hate about the whole process is the “you have to be level 80 to learn the recipes”. It doesn’t make sense, imho.

Zelulose.8695:

I know and this is why videos are useless on forums to prove a point.

I agree.

Zelulose.8695:

Yes I said "I wonder what people will say to it "because I already figured the people supporting AR would disagree with the video under any circumstances.

That is, the exact same thing that people disagreeing with the trait did before when a video with an engineer dieing was posted.

sorrow.2364:

Don’t waste your time uploading another video, ronpierce.

They will surely say that the enemy team is bad or that the match was staged in a private arena.

Or he can upload only the videos where he wins.
People here insisted so much that the video with the engineer dieing was either staged or on purpose, so the opposite can be true too.
Either you trust all of them, or none.

Penguin.5197:

At this point its gone long enough that I would just like a balance dev to stop lurking behind the forums and tell us their stance on this.

Would be better, indeed. So that we can see if whining about nothing works so well.

ronpierce.2760:

I’m not going to fraps 10 games for you, but I did fraps one! I’ll upload it and show you guys. 1-2 guys inc, no problem, had good assists, held it like a champ. Very fun.

And for all we know, you could have uploaded the only match you actually won. See how easy is to disprove videos?

You did it as well before, after all.

ronpierce.2760:

Well.. Perma Vigor and Sigil of energy, eh that really wasn’t a big deal. Also, Glue bomb, Big Ol Bomb, shield knockback, perma swiftness, some snares thrown in there, it was a good time.

The first two attacks are telegraphed and one of those has a smaller radius due of untraited bombs; so if anyone wakitten by that, well, just his fault. The shield knockback is fine, but knocking someone outside the point depends on its positioning; again, can be the opponent’s fault (especially since your build is based on kiting the opponent).
Again, you do negligible damage, and there is near to no support there. In a teamfight, assuming the opponents are even able to play, this build is near useless.

Zelulose.8695:

Bunkers don’t need awesome damage to support their teams.

In a teamfight you need either that or support, to avoid enemies focusing first on your mate and then on you. This build has none.
The elixir gun could help in that sense. It comes with an additional risk in 1vs1, though. A smart opponent could wait for him to put down the super elixir and wait for him to go above the treshhold, and then condiburst him down. The only way to avoid being healed in that case would be going out of the area, that means either getting near the opponent, or outside the point.

ronpierce.2760:

But of course… “They were all just bad and none of them had a place to be in tpvp in the first place!” This argument is endless, I can show you me never dying and I’m still wrong. XD

Yes. Exactly as you didn’t accept any evidence of an engineer dieing despite this trait.
As one can be staged, so can the other.

Zelulose.8695:

Manuhell.2759:

Zelulose.8695:

There are also 2 knock backs and elixir c could be swapped with any other defensive skill if you need a point contesting stun breaker.

The shield is the only one really usable there. But this build suppose that you are running round the point, cause you would be attacked in melee otherwise – so it won’t be easy to knockback the enemy outside
Regarding the Big Ol’ Bomb…if someone gets hit with it, it is entirely its fault. You can see it on the floor and there is a delay on its activation.
And if you switch elixir C for something else you won’t be able to protect from already applied conditions. The antidote from the med kit heals just a single condition and there isn’t anything else regarding condition removals there. No, the 8% trait isn’t enough.

Correction I meant elixir s not c.

Then he can’t protect himself from power bursts outside of the dodges (unless he takes tool kit…and doesn’t use anything else than the cripple and the shield) and a 2s block every 40s. Also, no chance of stability at all. And he still isn’t dealing any damage. In teamfights he would be useless.

Zelulose.8695:

There are also 2 knock backs and elixir c could be swapped with any other defensive skill if you need a point contesting stun breaker.

The shield is the only one really usable there. But this build suppose that you are running round the point, cause you would be attacked in melee otherwise – so it won’t be easy to knockback the enemy outside
Regarding the Big Ol’ Bomb…if someone gets hit with it, it is entirely its fault. You can see it on the floor and there is a delay on its activation.
And if you switch elixir C for something else you won’t be able to protect from already applied conditions. The antidote from the med kit heals just a single condition and there isn’t anything else regarding condition removals there. No, the 8% trait isn’t enough.

Zelulose.8695:

Then why has every class that could do that had a bunking nerf.

Like removing a popular stunbreaker and reducing both the stun and block duration of a shield, you mean?

Basically, this.
Or it could have been easily staged, anyway. Exactly like the other video in the thread. For the sake of that necro, i would actually prefer the second option.

Penguin.5197:

Zelulose.8695:

A person should not last over 2 minutes just running around on a point even in a 1vs1.

Thats what bunkers are supposed to do in 1v1 scenarios.

And he was even dying with a build that had the sole purpose of countering him. While the opponent could have had multiple chances of condibursting him when elixir c was on cooldown.

ronpierce.2760:

I sometimes forget constant healing with bombs that can’t hit any half-decent enemy due of their reduced radius, telegraphed knockbacks like a giant bomb on the field, perma vigor, high uptime regen thanks to a grandmaster trait that require me using bombs that won’t actually hit anyone and a single regen below 25% hp with a non-listed internal cooldown/protection that mainly relies on me getting disabled every 5s and somehow not being knocked off the point despite not having any reliable way of getting stability (cause my tossed elixir has a 50% chance of giving it), perma swiftness, are all things that make for a bad build versus other types too, especially if they are able to play.

Fixed.

oh, and regarding “blocks”, there is a 2s block on a 40s cooldown. Elixir S, as you are invulnerable, makes you unable to contest/hold the point. Amazing, huh.

ronpierce.2760:

And no, the point is, bunker builds need to not be able to last forever, in a game with conquest as the main objective, standing on a node to win, this easy of a win is not okay… And for the record, prior to this fight I actually BEAT (in about 5 minutes lol) a Power necro. While there wasn’t much they could do about me staying alive.

You were losing in a 1vs1, with a bunker build made especially to counter him, that has no other application other than that video and that would lose versus any other half-decent opponent, especially power-based ones. Untraited bombs have a terrible radius. All they have to do is kite from a distance -inside the point, because the radius is small enough to permit it- and there goes all your (small) damage. Or simply use CC skills to gain control of the node – you have no reliable way of getting stability, in either case.

I’ve just noticed the build at the end of the video. Elixir-infused bombs without the trait to extend their range. So you are saying you would defend a point – even versus other power opponents – using bombs with a 120 radius?
Oh, please.

Zelulose.8695:

I have to say the results from the video are hard to ignore I wonder what people will say to It. What is seen in the video is exactly why I brought up this topic.

I feel it is quite easy to ignore those.
First, because it can be staged. Exactly like the other video.
Second, because if it wasn’t staged, that necromancer plays really bad. All he would have had to do is a well placed condi burst when the engi healed himself – and thus was above the immune threshold. And he had many opportunities to do that while the elixir C was on cooldown – you can see it from the video itself. Using elixir s wouldn’t have sufficed – you still get damaged by the conditions already applied.
And this should be versus a full condi necro, right? Like, the exact build the trait should counter.
If anything, the only thing the trait would need is a clear visual cue.

ronpierce.2760:

If a non engi player can make an unkillable build versus a very popular and powerful build in literally minutes of creating it, and some engi main is dying and finding it “never useful or saving them”, yeah I’m going to go ahead and say its a problem with the player…

And? For all we can know, your friend may have lost on purpose.
I mean, you people said the same thing with the engineer video, so why shouldn’t the opposite be true as well?
Either all the video are plausible, or no one is.

Sooo, when someone dies with that trait and posts a video he gets accused of having lost on purpose and when someone else does the exact opposite, it is all fair and square and absolutely not staged.
No, seriously, totally unbiased.