This was a good call. The issues with the foundation of the game needs to be addressed before new content. This is what we have all been asking for and it is basic common sense that the core game needs to be right before anything else people…jump back and let them breathe. We can revisit legendaries later.
Pulling people from the expansion team (or the gem store one, if it is assets they lack) would achieve the same result. While giving us what we were actually supposed to get.
Oh, of course, it means that instead of working toward new sources of money they actually give us things we already paid for. Obviously that’s not what they are going to do.
Unless they come out with some blogpost at the start of April like “we hired an army of chronomancers and here are all the new legendaries, also we conquered the world and we have a portal to Tyria in our offices”, well, they ruined any credibility they had left. People will have no reason to buy a new expansion after seeing how they managed the first one.
You can’t have everything, something has to be sacrificed … please do notice how he said suspended and not cancelled.
Given that we paid for them in advance, we should indeed have “everything”.
If they have to sacrifice something in order to do that, they should start with gem store items. Not something we bought several months ago and that has yet to be delivered.
I wonder if this isn’t actually some preparation for an april fools. But well, it ends up being a joke either way.
Mortar just seems to be balanced around having the Siege Rounds trait
This. They reworked grenades because of their balance being dictated by their grandmaster trait…and gave us another kit with the exact same issue.
Let alone that condition builds – the only ones that would get some mileage from those pulsing fields – won’t get siege rounds either way, as they’ll go directly for shrapnel instead.
Not that those skills are good, anyway…despite being an elite skill, it pales compared to normal kits. It is just that, as far as PvE goes, the other elite skills happens to be even worse. Transformation skills have no use there, let alone one that is even randomic. Supply Crate summons turrets, thus not something that can actually have some use. And stealth gyro is meaningless in combat situations…thus almost always, since we’re talking about PvE. So that leaves only the mortar, and that we use.
In a Raid setting why are you using auto attacks primarily to begin with though? The proposed 20% boost to the coefficient of the hammer wouldn’t do anything to that. This is why the analysis is so bad; we can’t keep shifting gears and changing the battlefield then talk about the results.
When every other good choice is on cooldown. Something that, in a power build, does happens – and rather often, i should add, since we haven’t got many of them, and they’re all from different sources (on purpose, due to how kits work – else you could just equip some kits and chain high direct damage skills by swapping continuosly).
Last I checked people didn’t even use bomb auto in Raids all that often even for power builds and it does de facto have the highest coefficient of it’s own skills per attack.
People don’t use engineer/scrapper power builds in raids to begin with. Aside from that, using bombs would indeed be a good choice if the need arises. As said above, those other skills do end up being on cooldown…
Applied Force works on everything, though. And those needed might stacks will be provided by someone else in party/raid settings, either way. So the end result is that you’ll still be using that quickness with bomb autoattacks, rather than hammer ones.
Yet again, people are convinced that the hammer is so strong, despite no one actually using it in any optimized setting. Go figure.
Because people are somehow convinced we must be a piano class, despite not even being rewarded properly even when we play like one, just due of some utilities that should be optional but instead end up impacting any single balance decision of the whole class just by existing.
And because they don’t balance different modes properly, so whatever ends up working nicely in a small circle, usually in a 1vsX setting, is deemed good or even overpowered in any possible situation. Even if it isn’t. The scrapper is a fine example in that regard: in PvE it is frowned upon, yet people want it nerfed due to PvP. Whereas the condi engi spec is widely accepted instead.
Scrap it and do something different.
Whirl finishers are quite bad, minions that can’t take players’ stats are bad, and something that’s even supposed to stay in melee range to hit – be it via the whirl finisher or its pitiful spinning damage – and that will be mauled by everything in return, thus dying quickly, is terribly bad.
Albeit, if it were for me, they should rework gyros in their entirety. I posted some idea in a thread about a fuel system, back then.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/engineer/Gyro-with-Fuel/5979170
You’re right, but the problem is that most people don’t even bother trying to counter it.
They would rather have it nerfed than learn how to stop it. Guess it’s easier that way.
Not that i’m surprised. Those are likely the same people that didn’t bother destroying turrets, that still don’t bother killing gyros even now, and that whine if they do what they’re supposed to do.
100% would be too much, imho. Should be something like 45 or 50%, just enough to make up for the different chances to proc it on anything other than grenades.
Still limited to explosives, of course.
What people essentially complain for is that a specialization designed to make the class better at fighting in close range ends up being better than the base class when used into a game mode that forces people to fight in close range.
That’s a fault of the game mode, rather than the class or spec. The proposed solutions essentially boil up as making the whole design pointless by making it average in what it is supposed to specialize to, akin to what happened to turrets before – again another thing that was supposed to defend and control an area, and that was destroyed once it was finally able to do what it was designed for (even if they were able to do so only versus bad opponents).
And as such, it would be better if we finally had some sort of proper balance split, so that any change made purely for the sake of PvP wouldn’t impact any other game mode. Then you will be free to make any nonsensical and stupid decision, as it often happens when players’ whinings are involved, since it won’t affect anything else but that mode.
If we ever get SAB back, we could have a fractal where we, as our characters, end up in some scrambled SAB world and have to contend versus various enemies whilst avoiding Moto’s attempts of successfully fixing the bugs that suddenly appeared in its program (us players, if it wasn’t clear enough).
The boss fight could have the players helping Lord Vanquish versus Princess Miya and the hero.
It would be amusing.
Engineer was the last class to be developed, and probably they were in quite an hurry, so they recycled assets as much as possible. Or other skills entirely, in this case.
Ellen Kiel’s election was a failure. She wasn’t able to defend the city properly. She spent a ton of taxpayers’ money to rebuild the city, and all we got were some prebuilt buildings. She probably embezzled quite some gold for that, given that they had to bring them all into the city in haste.
Tixx even stopped coming into the city, leaving Lion’s Arch children without the joy of Wintersday. Despite all they’ve suffered.
Is this the future you want for this once prosperous town?
You can change it.
Support Evon Gnashblade.
Make Lion’s Arch Great Again!
rifle and pistol are designed to not be used very often with little to do between long cds on skills that are only effective enough to kill when used in melee.
this does not make them ranged weapons. it makes them good at improvising and adapting and turning that to your advantage.
for examples of ranged weapons, look at necro and mesmer staff and scepter, ranger and guard longbow, and thief shortbow. none of these weapons have multiple skills that come with the drawback of “oh, use this is melee or its gonna suck”, which means that the player tries to stay at range and be ranged. unlike engi weapons. engi weapons having range is not the same as being ranged.
so good luck being ranged with them.
And having a couple skills being better at close range doesn’t make them melee weapons either. It just means you’ll use those skills when you’re close, and then you’ll keep fighting at range (using the ranged autoattack, if there is nothing else available).
Sure, to deal good damage you’ll have to close the enemy every now and then, with the risks involved in doing so…but you have no reason to stay melee for the rest of the time, as far as using these weapon goes. As a matter of fact, the engineer is described as a mid-range class, and these weapons follow that approach by also providing some means to keep your distance – means that i’ve mentioned in the post above.
Oh, if you like being mauled, you can stay melee all the time. You just won’t gain much by doing it (the ranged skills are balanced over them being ranged, after all). Something you can do even with the other weapons you mentioned, anyway.
Or you can use a real melee weapon – like the scrapper’s hammer, or any other melee weapon those classes can weapon swap to – and be more suited for a melee role.
They’ve made melee weapons for that purpose, after all.
And likewise, they’ve made the scrapper for making us better in melee, too. By giving us what we can rightfully call a proper melee weapon.
With their skills. Most of which are ranged, or designed to keep the enemy away.
Take the rifle. There are two skills that provide some burst damage at close range, two skills to keep the enemy away after having done so – net shot and overcharged shot – and a ranged autoattack. Most of the time, you’re away from the enemy.
Main hand pistol skills are all ranged. Indeed, if you’re against a single enemy, poison dart volley would be more precise if you stay closed. But then again, you’ve got to do it only once every 10s.
Off-hand pistol gets you blowtorch and glue shot. A skill that requires you to be close for maximum efficency, and one to keep the enemy away. Yet again, you’ve got to be close only once every 15s.
All the rest of the time, you can stay safely at range. Or use glue shot to keep the distance when it’s available.
And then we have the shield, that won’t make you kill anyone either melee or at range, unless he tries to eat it and dies from asphyxiation.
But aside from that, you’ve got a skill to reflect projectiles that doubles as a knockback, and a skill that blocks and stun that doubles as a ranged shield throw.
This weapon screams “stay away” from all its skills, starting with knockback, going forward the stun on block (to give you some time to back off) and finishing with a shield throw after you got some distance.
And then we get the hammer, with four melee skills, one of which is designed to charge toward the enemy. And a single ranged skill that synergizes well with it once you’re already at melee range.
That’s a melee weapon.
literally every single other skill that is above static shot in the power list has no damage mitigation baked in. several have cc and blasts but there are no other baked in reflects, evades, blocks, prots, or invulns.
And literally every single other skill isn’t on a melee main weapon, since we haven’t got others (so far, at least). Being able to do things we couldn’t do before is kinda the point of the elite specs.
to be dealing such high damage while not vulnerable is what is op. the damage is fine. its supposed to hit hard with marauder and in melee, because its supposed to be high risk. however, hammer is not high risk. again, that is what is op. there is little risk and lots of reward,
If you play against people that just spam skills at random, it will indeed be like that.
But having offensive and defensive measures crammed together also makes it so that you’ll have to use both aspects together. Using them to do damage is what leaves you vulnerable to well-timed attacks, and likewise, using them at the right time to make use of their defensive properties will result in a dps loss. And then we have skills like rocket charge, where you can actually be hit (and eventually interrupted) during the animation. Assuming that the opponents actually bother doing so (i guess most don’t, and then just whine).
But it isn’t like there were other ways to do so. We can use a single main weapon, and we don’t have the leisure of having purely defensive skills on it. That’s something they already tried to do before, with the shield. And it ended up as a failure, despite the chain skills it offered.
especially in confined spaces such as nodes.
I do agree that the scrapper ended up especially suited to fight in such spaces. But given that the point of specialization was to make the class better in a melee role, that was to be expected.
But unless they plan on splitting balance between the various modes, nerfing it everywhere for doing exactly what it is specialized to do would be completely nonsensical.
What’s silly is to say that they’re “3 extremely high damage skills and 1 that still hits for a kittenload” to paint them as being overpowered, when the actual dps of some of those doesn’t necessarily end up being that much high compared to other skills we’ve got available. Unless you think that anything above “static shot” deals extremely high damage, at least.
Oh, indeed, some are strong. But it isn’t like they haven’t got their weak points, mainly due to cast times. Even the rocket charge you mention isn’t a full evade and can’t be canceled, meaning that a well-timed interrupt can still stop the scrapper. As it should be.
(edited by Manuhell.2759)
While i do agree that stats are different between the modes, that wasn’t the point of the post.
I posted it because it gives us a way to compare those several skills. And given that changing stats would proportionally impact them the same way, while we wouldn’t know their exact dps, we can still know their relative strength.
Specifically, if people post about the hammer having “3 extremely high damage skills and 1 that still hits for a kittenload” and we end up with half of them being worse than several other skills like poison grenade or throw wrench maybe there is something wrong with the perception of people about the hammer to begin with.
Edited due of some wrong comparisons.
(edited by Manuhell.2759)
Guess some people are forgetting that we’ve got a rather detailed analysis about skill damages just some days ago in this same forum.
https://dviw3bl0enbyw.cloudfront.net/uploads/forum_attachment/file/219594/Power_Scrapper.png
“3 extremely high damage skills and 1 that still hits for a kittenload”, right?
Because weapon sets are usually balanced over being able to use two of them. Or four attunements.
And even considering the engineer, this is the first melee weapon the engineer gets.
Making a comparison is meaningless, since there is nothing it can be compared to.
It’s amusing to see how the only class that would fit within an equal distribution is the one getting so much whining, though. But i doubt people actually bothered to notice that.
I told you to look at the entire picture. The fact that you can’t really puts your bias in the lime light.
I believe if it’s best for you to take a break on your engi and explore classes like warrior thief etc. Get a real perspective on the game.
You talk about bias, but all you’ve done here is asking for the scrapper to be nerfed in doing he’s designed to, refusing any compensation for doing so, and all of that because it happens to work well in PvP (disregarding any other mode in doing so).
I talked about changing what’s he specialized too, to make it less suitable to point defense, and yet you still advocated only to nerf. To take what he’s focused upon and make it average, while retaining the weak points such a specialization brings along.
You don’t want it to be specialized, and still you want all the downsides that come from being specialized in something. And then you accuse me of bias, how amusing.
And i’ve got all the classes, albeit not the specializations (most classes utterly bore me, actually). I do have a good perspective of the game, in my opinion.
I don’t know if you’ve got a good perspective instead, but neither i care, and i won’t tell you to get one. Still, it’s getting late here, and thus i’ll sleep. Good night.
You don’t seem to understand what I’m saying at all or if you do, you have a really skewed view of balance.
EVERY option must ALWAYS be considered when balancing. You don’t consider Gear Shield by itself, but what Gear Shield does + the rest of Engineer’s abilities.
If all a class has is a 3 second Block on a low cooldown and nothing else, it’s not a problem, but if that class has a 3 second Block on a low cooldown, then an evade, another block, multiple passive defenses, stun breaks, and ways to deal with conditions along with high damage and no other resource to manage (Life Force, Initiative, Energy, etc.), then obviously it’s a whole different scenario.
If you balance every single thing based over the best case, then you’re making everything average or worse to account over that best case. Thus making everything that isn’t part of that “best case” a bad choice.
No class is balanced like that. And neither should be. You don’t see healing signet’s values being balanced over some healing shout build to avoid making such a build too strong. If there are issue with it, you act on those healing shouts healings’ instead.
And most importantly, if something optional ends up being too strong…that’s what it should get nerfed, not some unrelated main weapon or utility (and since you mention tool kit, i have no idea why they thought that reducing their cooldowns further was a good thing).
I wont continue responding after this. It’s a simple concept: you don’t consider single things in a vacuum in this case.
And you don’t consider the consequences of what you’re proposing. Engineer should essentially end up with kit as its only viable utilities.
it seems wrong to consider only scrapper only things when talking about scrapper balance because 2/3 of the traits are base engi and only 1/6 of the possible utilities are scrapper only and 1/4 weapon sets is scrapper only.
very narrow minded.
I feel that clearly distinguish between the two is necessary, instead. Since it makes evident how they’re differently focused upon.
Beside that, people seems to have issues with the scrapper, but not with the base engineer. There wouldn’t be a point on nerfing core trait/skills if the core class isn’t too strong, and it would make the balance even more terrible once some other elite specs come (balancing depending on the best outcome of any separate elite specialization – and i should point out that an elite specialization is called like that because it makes indeed specialized in something, thus stronger at that than the base class – would means nerfing everything the core spec has, one at a time).
Also, those two engineer trait lines you mention are mostly about self-support/sustain anyway. Even bunker down ends up being better when alone rather than in groups.
That last post stemmed over the group support of the scrapper, anyway. And by going scrapper you do lose out on that, even compared to the base engineer. Let alone other classes.
And thus, if what he’s specialized it has to be reduced, it should be compensated by raising what he performs poorly. For example, group support (mostly because it would be relatively easy…they could change how rapid regeneration and adaptive armor work, in terms of traits).
Everything gets balanced with accordance with its potential. It doesn’t matter if it’s optional. If that option breaks something else, then there needs to be a change.
It does matter if it is optional – because there is a difference between something that’s always available, and something that isn’t.
Namely, it is fine for the former to dictate the balance of the whole class, but the latter should dictate only its own balance. Else you end up in a situation where something that should be optional ends up being forced as the only viable playstyle (since you’ve made everything else weak on purpose).
Scrapper damage coefficients arent a problem.
That is a misunderstanding that they are.Hammer 2 : x2:2
Hammer 3 : x3.0
Hammer 4 : x2.5
Hammer 5 : x3.6Do you realize how enormous those are. I play Scrapper, its my secondary, and I find it INSANE that Hammer 2 often hits harder than something like backstab. While being an AoE skill that reflects projectiles.
It’s the sole thing making bruiser scrapper viable in a way, so I’m not sure its a problem either. But its just kinda crazy in numbers.
Scrapper is like the second best damage dealer in competitive comps, while they’re using a middle of the road amulet ( Paladin ) and defensives traits literally everywhere.
Let’s take another example.
Flame Jet: x2.5
That means it is an amazingly powerful skill, right?
No, all that means is that people have no idea about how those coefficents work.
You have to divide them for the number of hits.
The actual highest coefficent out of them is actually 1.1.
(edited by Manuhell.2759)
I wonder if that thing can even Enrage.
I’m more worried about it putting himself to sleep profoundly in front of the exit.
-cut-
Either Scrapper needs some shaves or they need to go with Kit/Core Spec nerfs and we all know which option is healthier in the end.
So the choice would be between forcing the use of kit by balancing everything else over them and thus making the engineer some elementalist knockoff without a real choice of utility skills (with a complete disregard with how everything else deemed optional gets balanced, i should add), or properly balancing kits by themselves at it should be?
I guess you’ve never read my walls of text about how kits should be nerfed, baseline engineer eventually changed (by giving it that second weapon slot, since people want for engineer weapons to be balanced like they had two anyway) and how the current kit playstyle would be rather better suited for an elite spec.
So the fact you have 2 water fields with blast finishers
Base engineer skill, not a scrapper one. The scrapper itself doesn’t even provide blast finishers, by the way. Only leap and whirl ones.
can stomp/res from 900 units away
Yeah, that’s literally all its elite mechanic does. One at a time, with a cooldown, and an hp bar attached. I’m not sure you really want to compare it with other elite mechanics.
Group Stealth
An elite skill that stealths and gives your location away, since the gyro itself is always visible. It would more apt to call it a detargeting tool, since that’s what it is used for. And can be destroyed easily, but people never bother to do it. Quite an overrated skill.
, a lightning field
That’s useful mainly via leap finishers. That means mostly when used by the scrapper itself. Unless you’re so eager to give people swiftness…
, group reflection,
If you slot bulwark gyro, indeed you’ve got one, centered on yourself. It can work as group support, but i wouldn’t call it its main function. As far as i’ve seen, though, meta build don’t even use bulwark gyro.
2 ways to give allies regen,
Yep, that’s some group support. I did mention it had few means of group support in some post above, after all. Albeit, even those are due to engineer skills, rather than scrapper ones.
light field with whirl finisher,
Like above, this is due of an engineer skill. It’s a clunky way to provide support, and kinda unreliable, and you’ll likely waste the reflect on the electro-whirl, but we could call it some group support.
50% damage reduction to allies
That gets inflicted to the gyro instead, thus having more people makes it die quite faster. This trait is shared by purge and healing gyro as well, where they heal a single people at a time. Thus making them far better when alone, and weaker when in groups.
and this on top of being able to stand on point in a group fight dealing stupid amounts of damage.
By using offensive stats and traits that are mostly about self-sustain or other defensive means.
Yeah no group support at all…*
Most of the times i’ve written about having few means of group support, though. And indeed, there isn’t much. Two regens, a clunky way of healing conditions (assuming you even hit allies), a gyro that’s not even on the meta build and that’s destroyed faster the more allies there are and the reflection field that comes with it (thus, compared to that build, since it will miss elixir B and toss elixir B, it will have less offense and stability).
So your entire argument against my rightful analysis of Scrapper is that you want even more group support on top of everything I just highlighted if the damage is reduced….Yeah no.
Guess we have a different concept of what a good group support is. Or of rightful, either.
I replied in bold inside your quote. I thank you for your input and want to wish you well.
Thank you
Have a good evening too.
Yea, Elementalist tends to have much weaker skills than normal.
Scrapper’s Hammer seems stronger than most regular weapons
You do realize those statements together prove exactly what i’m talking about?
not even taking into account the added utility and defense of toolbelt skills
But as i said above, engineers aren’t the only ones having F-skills, while being the only one with such a drawback. So where do we set the line? How many toolbelt skills make a weapon? Especially considering that toolbelt skills gets balanced over their utility skills anyway (see elixir R, for example – a strong toolbelt with a mediocre utility skill).
and kits that can be chained together.
Again, optional utilities. Can’t balance main weapons or mechanics over them. It would make as much sense as balancing warriors over them using banners and giving them lesser base stats to “compensate for it”, just to make an example. Obviously that makes no sense at all, and no one should be balanced like that.
You are only focusing on engineer. A look at the entire game yields a different PoV.
And you’re only focusing on damage and self-sustain. That’s your issue. Those aren’t the only thing classes can do. You’re the one that should look the entire game.
The fact a scrapper can pull of cele ele point holding, better damage, 1v1 like a boss, and do all this while wearing a marauder amulet is the problem. If you had to sacrifice damage to obtain that survivability it would be perfectly fine, but you do not. The damage coefficients on hammer along with the passives and survivability of traits + utilities are too much.
Again – you’re comparing an elite spec and meta build that focuses on doing a specific thing with a class that’s well more rounded – group support included. There is no point in such a comparison. Of course the specialized one ends up being better if it does what it is specialized on.
I honestly would be ok with engineers being able to take that amount of beating if you cut 30-40% of the damage they could do. Or keep the damage and make kitten sure they are dropping with ease while wearing a marauder amulet like the rest of the game.
And this is why i’m strongly opposed to such blind (or biased, but i can’t be sure) points of view.
All you would do is making barely average in what it is supposed to be its strong point, while doing nothing to address its weak points, essentially making the specialization worthless.
Like i said above, they could turn its self sustain in group one, so that it can be individually weaker – and thus less suited for defending points while alone – but still be useful in group. That could be a reasonable solution.
But no, all you’re talking about is just about nerf, nerf, nerf.
You have to consider the Scrapper’s Kits too; they can provide good defense and utility as well, which combined with the Hammer, can be pretty strong.
Is there any other weapon that comes close to as much damage + survivability? Yes, I realize the others are ranged, but it should all be considered.
Kits are optional, though – they aren’t given by default like weapon sets or other class main mechanics are. They shouldn’t dictate the balance of the class as a whole, but just their own.
You could make such a comparison with the toolbelt instead. And given that the engineer isn’t the only one having F-skills (guardian gets three signet-like skills, for example) while still being the only one missing a second weapon set (albeit that’s not completely correct either, as elementalists miss a second one too, but gets the attunement system instead) i doubt that it would warrant its single weapon being balanced like any others, either.
We do have a similar example with elementalists, albeit in the opposite spectrum. Being warranted far more skills by default than any other class, those skills are balanced differently as well.
Scrapper damage coefficients arent a problem.
That is a misunderstanding that they are.If you try to balance scrapper hammer against a DPS weapon, they’re about right. However, scrapper hammer is more about defense and utility compared to most weapons. Slanting it so heavily in that direction brings into question whether its damage should be the same as a weapon which doesn’t offer that many extras over damage.
Reducing damage should be part of the trade-space just as much as reducing utility (increased cooldowns, etc) is.
You’re comparing the scrapper’s hammer with weapons used by classes that can use two such weapon sets by default, though. I don’t think such a comparison can even make sense. They’re likely to be balanced in a different way.
Once again you are just arguing against yourself and not looking at the big picture.
You literally are only focusing on “Anet said I was supposed to do this so that’s what this is!!” and disregarding actual game balance. Did you watch the finals? You see the engineer from Rank 55 finish killing the lord while being wailed on by another player from Team PZ while wearing a marauder amulet? In what world do you honestly believe that is ok?
In one where an elite spec is designed to do exactly that, being good alone and offering few means of group support. I wonder if you ever took a good look and saw how self-centered such a build is.
I don’t see being unbalanced. It specializes in doing a single thing, and does it well.
That thing just happens to work so well in PvP settings, and that’s what people are having issues with.
See, what’s you’re likely missing from our conversation is that i agree as well that something should be done.
But whereas you would just stupidly nerf everything he’s good with, missing the whole point of the specialization being specialized in doing that, i would rather change what it is specialized in.
More specifically, i would change some scrapper traits to make them group-wide, but lowering their individual efficency. Thus making it less good when alone, but offering better support in group situations compared to the current situation.
It is not good for the game to have 1 class do what scrapper can currently do.
You need to choose. You want to hold a point on a scrapper that’s fine, but you’re damage needs a huge nerf then. You want to do that huge damage? That’s fine then you can’t sustain a fight worth a kitten. That’s balance.
No, that’s just a subset of things classes can do that just happens to do what’s most useful for keeping points. That’s the issue at hand.
A class can be good at both and still be balanced. Because it lacks other factors (like group support, in scrapper’s case).
The issue is not that he does those things well.
But rather, is that he does those specific things. As those are all that matters in the context he’s used for.
I think you need to look at the entire picture of all the classes, core specs, and elite specs to understand. Take your time.
I could say the same to you. You’re completely missing the point, though.
You just showed yourself what it is you don’t see. Every time you have a class who’s doing the big damage while traiting completely defensively you ALWAYS get the out come of “Too stronk”. Especially in this game GW2.
Mostly defensively, i wrote (there is HGH there too, to provide some might). And then there is the scrapper line. That isn’t just about defense – it’s about being a frontline, melee fighter. And that means also having enough damage to warrant that choice, be it via traits or the instruments provided (and the meta build indeed uses Perfectly Weighted, the only hammer trait they’ve got there).
Also, that’s just how the mechanics work. Attack stats are much more important than defensive ones due to how they interact with each else. That’s nothing new.
What you believe is logical and acceptable is not the truth. This just absolutely confirms you’re beliefs on balance should be disregarded. For example what would you say to say a shatter mesmer who could 1v2 and keep points while doing so? OMGNERFMEOWANETZ!! is what I’d imagine right? How about a thief who could 1v1 anyone, 1v2, and kite 1v3 all the while never losing a point? I’m all for having people be able to over perform based on skill, but you have to have a line where its only based on skill….not over performing classes.
Either damage or dem survives has to be nerfed significantly. Pick one.
Thank you
I could say the same about your beliefs. You are comparing a thief and a shatter mesmer with an elite spec that was designed specifically to make melee fighters out of engineers. That’s just not their role. Of course they won’t perform well if you force them to do so.
And such a build disregards anything else in order to bring that offense and survivability. That’s also the reason why no one bothers using it in any other mode.
The sustain and damage you’re complaining about don’t come for free, you know.
All you’re doing is screaming “OMGNERF”, but you don’t even comprehend what’s the actual issue. You’re just saying that having purely offensive stats (and some traits) shouldn’t warrant good damage, and having a ton of defensive traits shouldn’t warrant good means of defense. That’s crazy.
The scrapper is doing exactly what’s supposed to do.
If there is an issue with pvp modes, it’s that “what’s supposed to do” ends up making him extremely suitable to defending and controlling points, especially when alone (as it’s mostly about selfish support/sustain, anyway).
The solution you provide is to slap some nerf to take what he’s supposed to do and make it weak even in that regard. That’s just stupid.
If anything, what should be done is to change what he’s supposed to do. Make it less good when alone and better in groups by changing some of the scrapper traits, so that the end result would be less suitable to defending points in 1vsX situations.
Scrapper wasnt nerfed enough last balance patch. In terms of overall health of the game the current meta build needs to be toned down significantly in terms of either damage or survivability.
I understand that there are a lot of Homers of this forum but please realize that for the good of the game is a,real thing. A marauder amulet wearing class with scrapper survivability is bad for that btw.
Also remember this isn’t about the changes the other elites need. We all know and will voice them in the proper areas. This is about the brokenness of scrapper.
I still don’t see where is the “brokenness”.
It uses offensive stats, of course…but it also adds two trait lines that are mostly about sustain and defense and another that’s all about being a melee fighter (and provides self-sustain and other means to do so).
The end result is perfectly logical.
The “issue”, if we want to call it like that, is just that it is extremely suited to a mode that’s based over fighting inside a small circle while usually being alone.
And mostly useless in any other mode, i should add. Almost all the traits are about empowering the user itself, or giving support to a single ally in a case (bunker down med kits). A trait like HGH is terrible in group settings, as other classes can provide that might to the group far better. And the group support provided by such a build is very limited.
It doesn’t need to be “toned down”. It uses mainly offensive stats, two defensive line that are selfish for the most part, and it adds a line that’s all about being a frontline fighter and having the tools to do so. It is extremely specialized, and it has to do that well. It wouldn’t make sense otherwise.
What can be reasonabily done is to change its scope. If the scrapper line offers too much self-sustain, change it into group sustain (so that it’s weaker in 1vsX situations, and better in XvX situations). Alter the design, instead of gutting the end result.
Also, if we were to talk about “the good of the game”, the first thing that should be done would be about splitting balance instead of making things useless in any other mode as they usually do by balancing over PvP. Like they did with turrets – yet another thing designed to do a specific thing – controlling and defending an area – and that was gutted down just because it did exactly what it was designed to do.
A slab of granite. Magical granite. It just works.
cut
Whereas by “diversity” you mean “people will have to rely on kit even more because there aren’t other way to damage opponents once hammer gets nerfed”. No, thanks.
I agree with reducing self-sustain and changing it into group-support to make it less suited to 1vsX situation. But hammer being better than rifle in melee situations is perfectly logical. Rifle is a ranged weapon, and suited at keeping opponents at range most of the time (via net shot and overcharged shot). You need to be at close range only once every 10s (blunderbuss) or 20s (jump shot). But other than that, you do not need to be at melee range.
Whereas the hammer requires you to be constantly at melee range, and that in itself poses more risks – and thus must have appropriate rewards. Sure, the hammer does provide active defenses -the point of the elite spec is to make a mid-range fighter like the engineer better at melee range after all, and that requires staying alive to do it too – and rather telegraphed as they should be. Meaning that skilled opponents can work around them, assuming they aren’t just spamming skills at random (something that, i guess, is the actual issue at hand).
To sum it up, sure, the hammer is more suited than the rifle to defend a point. As a melee weapon, that’s perfectly logical. The mechanics don’t require anything else than staying inside a point and staying alive in a situation that puts you a melee range, so that’s a natural outcome. So, if you want to blame something…blame the mechanics, not the instruments provided.
The expansion rewrote a lot of the core game. Specializations and masteries took developer time to design. It’s not all just zones that goes into an expansion. Story takes time to design and the way it was laid out this time, they used a different system than telling the story than previously. It all takes development time.
From your point of view it’s just content, but adding a new weapon to every single profession, that’s design time too.
Ok, let’s say the programmers were busy with coding specializations and masteries. Fine. That still doesn’t explain how we didn’t get many skins either (and no glider skin at all). Since they’re done by other different people. And doing those skins doesn’t seem a huge amount of work, seeing the frequency of the gem store updates. So, it isn’t like they lack the manpower to do it. And neither the lacked the time – the game did suffer a drought of content for many months before the expansion came out.
Or maybe they’ve put few skins and no glider skin at all in a paid expansion as a deliberate choice to push gem store sales.
That seems like a more reasonable explanation, even if it isn’t one that we buyers should like.
I wouldn’t call it rewarding – as others have mentioned, compared to other classes, we have to do far more to achieve the same results (mostly due to kits and their balancing, i should add).
But it is fun nevertheless, and thus is fine too.
What I would really like is a glider I can earn in the game. As an example, the exalted glider should have been one more collection after the last exalted backpack. The ugly sweater glider could have been in wintersday as well. even having a 10th of new gliders skins (and weapon skins as well) being added into the game instead of into the gemstore in some form (directly or black lion keys) would be great to add some newness and variety to areas. There are now 14 glider skins with only the basic glider actually being obtainable in game, because you have to give one to start.
Let me add that to use gliders you’ve got to have the expansion to begin with, so it isn’t like we haven’t already paid for it.
I wonder what we actually paid for, seeing as we didn’t get much content – be it skins(no glider skins other than the default one, few legendaries and other weapon skins (and some are just either color swaps or modifications of others rather than new ones) or things to do (4 maps and a short personals story, the first raid wing wasn’t even available at the launch) and most of it will supposedly come later on (other raid wings, living story, all the other legendaries).
The only thing that gets regularly updated…is the gem store. We already got something like 13 glider skins, and those are the only one available in game beside the default one (as the legendary PvP one isn’t yet available). Makes me wonder why they didn’t make any available for the paid expansion they’ve released if they’re so easy and fast to produce given they had a lot of time to do that (and seeing how we suffered a content drought for the most part of the last year and we didn’t get many skins either, i would guess they had quite enough time if they wanted to). Obviously the answer is that it was a deliberate choice to earn more revenue at the detriment of people that paid for the expansion.
Essentially, it seems like we’re getting all the disadvantages and cash-ins of a free to play game, while still having paid an expansion for it. And i can’t understand how people can be pleased with that.
Jetpack: The engineer turns it on, it charges up, and the engineer rapidly flies toward a target for an unblockable albeit very telegraphed attack, leaving burning flames behind him.
If the target gets hit, he gets damaged and launched forward; the engineer itself is self-launched and suffers a bit of recoil damage too.
If it misses, the engineer flies ahead and then tumbles forward, somehow evading attacks in its erratic movement.
Yeah but engineer has been designed with kits in mind to supplement for the loss of a weapon.
What you describe is essentially the attunement mechanic.
And that’s what we should have got if we were effectively supposed to be designed over kits. Instead, we’ve got the toolbelt.
Given that the engineer was the last class to be revealed, and that kits were kinda in a primitive state when the game was released, my impression about them is more about them being something added during late development to recycle other enviromental weapons and save some time, rather than something we were actually designed upon.
Saying that hammer/engineer weapons need to be stronger to supplement for not having another weapon still allows for people to run kits, hence making it too strong with 1/2 kits effectively as good as another classes weapon as well as another weapon which is more powerful than others :P
Well, that’s the issue with kits – how do you balance a class that can have either a single weapon or 6* at the same time (albeit, i do not think that kits are really comparable to proper weapons)?
The variance is far too high, indeed.
The proper solution should be to balance those kits accordingly, though, not the main weapon. As in doing so, an engineer wouldn’t be essentially forced to take kits instead of other utilities. Cause that is what happens when you balance the class over a supposedly optional utility.
Alas, i’ve said so many times my opinion on the matter – the current kit playstyle would be better suited as an elite spec, rather than being the core engineer whose every other elite spec must be based onto.
For those concerned about the damage reduction in PvE… this is why PvE and PvP should be split. You have a hybrid defensive/offensive (currently great at both) weapon like hammer and can’t expect it to be capable of dishing out as much damage as other full DPS focused weapons in a pvp setting.
I agree on them having to split balance – mostly because the modes are completely different, and the rest of the game isn’t based upon defending a small circle.
But comparing the hammer to other weapons isn’t exactly fair…mainly because those other classes have two weapon sets available at any time, and as such they’re balanced. *
And even if we were to make a comparison with other engineer weapons…it isn’t like we’ve got any other melee weapon to compare it with.
It seems to me that the main issue pvp-people have with it is in the design of the specialization itself – a tanky melee fighter with straightforward abilities and reduced group support (usually to its own detriment – purge and healing gyro target a single player at a time, after all).
Essentially, someone that’s extremely suited for conquest mode by design.
And if there is an issue, it is exactly there. It shouldn’t have been designed in such a way to begin with.
And given that’s the problem, i don’t think nerfing it would solve anything. If you remove what they’re supposed to be its strong points, the whole spec becomes pointless.
What could be reasonably done is to change the spec to make it less selfish and more oriented to groups, mainly by changing some traits so that it is less strong while alone (thus reducing its efficency in such situations) while not making the spec pointless in doing so. A trait like rapid regeneration could be changed to heal for a lesser amount but have its effect extended to allies too.
Adaptive armor could be changed (and its values decreased in doing so) to make it apply to nearby allies as well, alike Strength in Numbers, Spotter and similar buffs.
So that
- someone will mention kits or the toolbelt; kits aren’t available all the time (being optional) and thus aren’t the same as a second weapon set; and about the toolbelt, we aren’t the only class with F skills (guardians have 3 of them, for example, yet they don’t lack weapon skills as a drawback like engineers supposedly do)
Well, balancing impacts pve as well, at least until they’ll finally, properly split it.
It only makes sense for people to wish to not have further useless things in pve due to an unrelated mode.
Especially seeing as pve balance was already harmed by such decisions in the past (and continues to do so, i should add).
How about a glider that we can earn in game and not on the gem store!
Stop complaining about this please. Remember that most games with a cash shop add in but to play options guild wars is doing the right thing by adding in purely cosmetic things in the store. They have to make money. Armor/runes/sigils/weapons should be earned in game. But fun things like glider skins should be mostly gem store.
To use gliders you already have to pay for the expansion to start with, though.
If anything, we should have had some available at launch along with the expansion – nothing fancy, even some simple patterns would have been fine – and then new ones on the gem shop later.
The fuel idea is nice – actually, i kinda expected them to be something like that to begin with, given how they were described. But i would tweak it a bit.
As in, making their fuel and hp a single thing and making them recharge their hp once toggled off instead of having a proper cooldown.
In doing so, damaging them would directly influence their uptime. They would probably need to be made a bit sturdier if it comes to pass, though.
Killing a gyro could lock it at 0 for some seconds, and prevent its deploying until it gets at a certain percentage yet again (like, 25% or 50%). A sort of soft cooldown so to speak, to discourage people from spamming them as soon as available.
It would also be possible for players to call them back, but they would have to physically get back to the engineer to do so (thus consuming some fuel while doing so; this is important for a couple of them).
While they seemingly lack a cooldown in this design, they would still be balanced taking in account different rates of recharge, and given that once destroyed they have to wait until they get to a certain percentage, it would mean they indirectly have a cooldown anyway (one that has to be balanced over a partial efficency rather than a full one, though).
It could also make for some interesting interaction with some gyros.
Blast Gyro’s damage could depend on their current fuel at the moment of the explosion, for example. So players could have the choice of launching it at full hp from close range in order to deal full damage (albeit, if reflected, it would mean the scrapper gets the full damage instead). He could call it from a distance, dealing lower damage, but having the option to call it back to bait some reflect (but still consuming fuel and having it eventually damaged in doing so – this is why i mentioned them having to get physically back to the engineer before). Or he could try to capitalize on the CC and use them asap, but given the low fuel it also means they would have to call them closer to the target (and making it easier for them to be destroyed before reaching the target).
Likewise, Shredder Gyro could see interesting plays this way, especially if its damage sees some decent increase (even better, just give it some bleeding and/or torment and scrap the whole whirl finisher thing; it is awful anyway).
In this case calling it back would make it a neat circular saw that moves toward the scrapper. With the added effect of rewarding intelligent positioning.
About the Medic Gyro, its initial healing could depend on its current fuel, thus making calling it at low fuel less worthwhile (as doing so would lessen its uptime, and thus the gyro healing as well). If they wanted they could just remove the initial heal entirely and adjust the gyro healing instead, too.
Final Salvo would indeed need to change. It could technically work like it does now, but if it did so, it would encourage people to spam them asap, and that would be detrimental.
What could be done instead is making it work only when gyros are completely fueled and maybe improve the rate of recharge. Call it Charged Salvo instead (yes, the wordplay is intended).
Imho, its effectiveness already depends far too much on Siege Rounds.
The whole weapon is essentially balanced over using that trait, and it is barely mediocre without it. Essentially just another “grenadier” situation yet again.
And it doesn’t even do much for condition users anyway. Just some stacks of poison.
If they want to make mortar good enough only via traits (again, a terrible idea, but still better than nothing) they could just change its interaction with Shrapnel (again, another trait essentially based over the best case – grenades – and mostly useless in any other situation).
As in, change Shrapnel to have different effects based on the explosive used, with a fairly good one on the mortar.
Given that most complaints go to rapid regeneration, what if they changed it a bit instead of a straight nerf? Like, lowering the heal but making it effect allies as well? Making super speed recover endurance, rather than healing? A combination of the above?
Hammer gives you sustain, damage and some cc, basically all what you need in pvp.
Maybe that’s the issue, then?
The scrapper was deliberately made as a tanky melee alternative to the normal engineer.
It’s like that by design. Of course, if the mode you’re playing is based upon staying inside a point, it isn’t exactly surprising that it works well. That is what was supposed to do, after all. That, and nothing else.
It’s the same reason why turrets were considered powerful once their bugs were fixed, and that had nothing to do with their passiveness. They were designed to control and protect an area, and they were used to do just and exactly that. We all know how they ended up.
I would like to avoid a similar end for the scrapper.