Turrets needed to be changed but the manner they did it was sloppy.
No, the manner they did it was extremely highly requested and very reasonable.
Making player character skills effected by other players skills and stats investment is extremely reasonable.
Reasonable? Hah.
There is nothing reasonable in adding ways to damage them (or to give them additional damage) without also rebalancing their defensive capabilities.
They weren’t designed to be affected by conditions or criticals, thus their hp values and defenses never accounted for it. It is merely logical.
Everyone with a brain knew what the effect would be – killing them off completely.
Cause that was what the people “highly requested”.
People didn’t want a rebalance. People wanted making them worthless. And they did so.
As turrets, they’re useless.
Sure, they may find use in some build (SD) as something you put down, use the overcharge and detonate immediatly.
But as turrets, they’re useless.
(and it isn’t like they fixed the actual issues, anyway – even if you could make them resist for more than 10 seconds, they still offer an extremely passive gameplay when used as they’re supposed to…thus, as turrets; and as i always say, nothing short of a redesign of either overcharges or turrets as a whole will fix it. Assuming they ever intend to do so; and considering they didn’t say anything about it even after nerfing them to oblivion, i assume they won’t)
Wow.. turrets engi needs to do like us. Get some skills.
Nice trolling. Skill has nothing to do with it – they just die too fast, and once they’re dead, the engineer can rely on a single weapon and some toolbelt skills.
Let’s assume one picks’em up when they’re almost dead. What use would one have for something that lives less than 10 seconds? It would do one overcharge at most, with a couple autoattacks added in. Followed by a 15s cooldown in the best case (and near 40s for the worst ones).
If they get killed or detonated, times are even longer. They just end up on cooldown for a large majority of the time. And thus useless.
Good luck using your “skill” with a barebone set of skills, anyway. There are just too few skills to work with, due to the single weapon and the actual toolbelts being locked by the detonation toolbelt. The lowest any class can have, as a fact – 10 in total.
Could as well use a kit or some other utility to start with, then. At least they can’t get killed. And you even get a lot more skills to work with.
The right thing would be redesign them to give more active play.
Not make them useless. That would be fine only as a band-aid.
They’ve just made them useless and did nothing to address the actual issues.
I mean, what can you expect from a build that can at most have 5 weapon skills, 4 overcharges or toolbelt in any combination, and an elite?
Of course it feels passive, there are just too few skills to work with. And since most of the attacks are autoattacks – either of the turret or the player – there isn’t much that can be done wrong from the turreter.
The lack of active play was the issue to address, not their sturdiness.
It would be fine if this was just a band-aid. But usually they just nerf things to oblivion and leave them there. And i even have to read about people being happy that we just have even less utilities to decently work with, heh…
I can’t see them working together at all.
I can understand why they put them together – they share the same activation trigger – but they’re complete opposites as far as how they’re used.
Speedy Kit is a general use buff, Kit Refinement’s abilities are all highly situational. And you can’t freely use the former without wasting the latter.
Unless they change how one or the other works, there will be issues in actual use.
Imho, AED’s main issue lies in its opportunity costs – waiting until you’re almost dead to use that also means you haven’t been able to heal yourself before that time comes. And in other heals’ case, it often means having used those multiple times.
And i agree about Elixir H…the random element is just detrimental.
Assuming that the next step ever comes.
Cause usually, it doesn’t.
And since people hate them, no one will care either way…
About the pulsing stability mentioned above…what if they made Juggernaut work with the mortar kit as well?
In a sense, it is like the perfect antithesis of the flamethrower -a slow and hard-hitting ranged weapon.
Could provide a sort-of counter to retaliation-using enemies when using said trait, since two out of three offensive flamethrower skills are massive retaliation proccers.
I can’t understand the point of merging together kit refinement and speedy kits to start with.
One provides highly situational abilities, the other a general purpose buff.
Putting them together means that either you use the situational ability at a correct time (and won’t use the general purpose buff in the meantime) or you use that and get the general purpose buff at will like before (but will waste the situational abilities).
And they also end up at master tier.
Seems more a nerf than anything to me.
What about changing Automated Response entirely? Could be something like “gain X seconds resistance when you’re affected by a condition, Y seconds cooldown”.
Or even give pulsing resistance when under a certain health treshhold, for example.
Well, judging from the livestream it would seem that they’re even cutting down some traits. Rifled turret barrels is no more, and autotool installation is gone as well. Accelerant-packed turrets is partly on default now – only the detonation part.
Basically, only experimental turrets and one that includes both fortified turrets and metal plating remains. And they may have to compete with really good traits, now.
I can’t see a turret build being even worth considering, especially since you’ve got to use a single trait line out of three now. Sure, this means that you could just use a couple ones and a kit, but i guess it would just better use kits, get the other nice traits and leave them alone entirely. With automated medical response gone, they’ll be quite useful.
Using the tool kit to heal turrets wouldn’t be worth it, anyway. With the lack of survivability they’re gonna have, you would have to stay there mauling the turret most of the time. And time you’re spending mauling a turret is time you aren’t spending mauling the other player instead, so you’re just gimping yourself in such a situation. Beside being easy prey for aoes.
I still think it would be better redesigning them entirely. And in doing that, also give some more active gameplay.
Seems akin to the downed #2. I wonder if that was supposed to be a reference as well.
Anyway…
Shattering Resonance (Master)
Toolbelt skills remove protection and retaliation.
It would give a way to remove retaliation specifically, since many of our skills are harshly countered by it. Protection is there just as an added bonus (removing retaliation only could have been too weak for a master trait) and because it is thematically appropriate (i see the trait as a sort of device that resonates the enemies’ “force fields” and shatters them)
Defective Gadgets
When a gadget recharges it explodes, dealing damage and a blast finisher.
(as a tell there could be an electrical effect on the engineer, followed by the explosion)
By activating at recharge time, it doesn’t impede with the normal working on the gadget affected. The “blast finisher” part was put due to the focus on blast finishers that the engineer is getting (and gadget are kinda lacking in that regard).
(edited by Manuhell.2759)
Dynamic Dynamo – Grandmaster
Recharges toolbelt on endurance use (1s per every 10 endurance used).
It would mirror adrenaline pump (as that gives endurance per toolbelt use).
It could have a synergy with adrenal implant (more endurance recharge means more endurance you use, and thus faster toolbelt recharge) and with static discharge (since you’re making toolbelts recharge faster).
I wonder if they retained the 200 toughness for Juggernaut. As far as i remember, the original Juggernaut gave it was well. Assuming it is still a flamethrower trait, that is.
Guess we can’t really say much without knowing the exact changes they’re going to do.
Grenade kit is being changed to a mid-range kit, and poison grenades are going to be rebalanced if they’re removing the poison field.
Seems like it will keep its role of constant application of vulnerability – as long as you invest in the explosion tree, that is. But i can’t see it doing much else apart that.
I understand why they did it – they had to, if they wanted mortar’s to be useful in some way – but range was also one of the strong point of grenades. Sure, the third grenade now is baseline, but they always balanced the whole kit over that to start with.
With shrapnel becoming grandmaster, guess the choice will end up to either improve grenades’ mid range capabilities (shrapnel, the added cripple may work to keep enemies far enough) or to improve mortar’s long range ones.
I just hope they don’t end up with the same issue of the old grenade kit – being totally dependant of its related traits, ended up useless when not traited with them.
But in the end, seeing all the changes they’re doing, i guess we can just only wait, try them, and see for outselves.
This thread should be put on top and closed, to remind us and the future generations of engineers. The grim aesthetical past shall not be forgotten. Maybe we should also have an hobosack museum somewhere in the game.
Hobosacks will be gone, like tears in rain. Time to die…
Uhm…base stats will be raised from 926 to 1000, gear will be made stronger, half of the profession attribute will be baseline and the other half with go with a trait line.
…where are the other secondary attributes going, though?
Condition damage, healing power, ferocity, boon duration, condition duration.
Especially the last two – since they don’t even have proper related gear.
Let’s wait and see, that’s all i can say. There are quite a bit of changes coming along.
I also suspect that the “grandmaster trait that has the power to grant my character a defiance bar” isn’t anything other than a revamped Juggernaut.
Yes, ArenaNet has not shown interested in striving towards that ideal. There aren’t going to be more resources allocated to overhauls before the xPac, Turrets are a problem right now. Also, we’re not sure what the expansion will bring yet for skills and balance, I hope they do shift their balance philosophy to put effort into making all utility types purposeful. I actually don’t disagree with anything you’ve said, it’s just missing the practical component of what can be done while focusing on conserving resources for the looming expansion pack.
The practical component means nothing if there isn’t any will to do anything about it, though. Like you said as well, they haven’t been striving toward that ideal at all.
That’s my issue with this nerf and others – whenever they’ve put something in the garbage bin, they ended up leaving it there.
If this was intended as a band-aid fix with a larger goal of a redesign down ahead, it would be more than fine. But right now, it just seems they plan on making them near useless and stop there.
I’ll just repost what i said in another thread some time ago.
Making it ineffective while standing still would be the laziest counter ever seen, though – one could avoid that by literally doing nothing.
Thus i would rather propose to add another layer of complexity to the skill.
Alas, giving the engineer some interactions with the oil via the use of some fire-based skills.
By using one of the aforemented fire-based skills (blowtorch or flame jet, for example) the oil would be ignited, prompting some animation on the poodles (it could have a duration of half or three quarters of a second). It is important to point out that crossing them at this point is safe; it will cause no knockdown, as the oil just started to burn, and will cause no damage either;
After that time, though, the oil will burn and cause damage and/or burning (either for some little time, or in a single blow; imho, the latter solution is the better one, else it would just clutter the terrain with little aoes).
By doing something similar, there would be quite some positive effects on gameplay.
First, there is counterplay for the oil slicks- standing still – albeit quite an easy one; but there is also counter-counterplay on the engineer part that can burn the area and force the opponent to either react properly or take damage.
Obviously, this also means that the engineer can’t just spam skills at random. If he wants to ignite the oil later, he will need some skills that can do so; likewise, if he wants to knock down an enemy, using a fire skill at the wrong time would foil his plan.
Also, it would be doable in a gadget build as well, via rocket boots or rocket kick; thus adding some value to an underused build.
Don’t be sad, as if game content is being taken away from you. Be satisfied in that A.I has more of a place than most garbage-tier utility types. (Edit: Like Engineer Gadgets, Ele Glyphs, Ranger Shouts, Thief Traps.)
Spirit Rangers, Spirit Weapons, Minionmancers, Turrets,
These are all inherently useful for beginner players to artificially raise their battle strength, past what their mechanical skill corresponds with. Nobody that’s passionate about this game, and subsequently posting on these forums will (likely) fall into to category of people that these Turrets are designed to be used by. All games have cheese strategies that rocket you past the complete noobs when mastered.
So many people are disillusioned into thinking that A.I should have the potential to be optimal (meta), and if it isn’t, then it’s simply nerfed into uselessness. Yes, it may become useless for you, those who should have long mastered other strategies. It’s never a thankful reaction when one takes the bike out for a spin and finds out that Dad took the training wheels off while they slept.
In my opinion, for the good of the community, Turrets should join the background as a novelty/starter build and far away from the meta comp list. Currently, Turrets are strong enough to be meta, whereas Spirts, Sprit Weapons, Minionmancers, these are where they should be. Turrets represent a blatant error in balance philosophy where a day 1 entry build yields such comparatively strong results.
Well, we just have different opinions.
Imho, for the good of the game, any build should be relatively strong in the hand of a skilled player, and bad in the hands of no skilled ones.
Day 1 entry builds shouldn’t exist to begin with, and if something works like that, it just means there is some design flaw that permits to do so. And thus it should be fixed.
I think that having skills designed to be useless over a certain skill level is an extremely stupid concept: it just reduces your options as you get better, instead of broadening them.
Sure, you can’t avoid meta builds – something will always end up being better in accordance to its current metagame – but that should happen based on the situation, and as that happens, by having skills of equal strength, people can go against the meta and eventually change it. Unlike what happens now, where the meta changes only via dev intervention to make skills more or less strong.
Sure. i do realize that what i hope for isn’t easy to accomplish. But i don’t even see them striving in that direction to start with.
Imho, it wouldn’t work.
There are just not enough instruments to work with. It’s a design flaw of the current model. As toolbelts aren’t available while the turrets are down, in a turret build you’ve got just 5 weapon skills and 3 overcharges at most (with cooldowns comparable to a #4 or #5 weapon skill).
It ends up being the exact opposite situation of a kit build: too few skills to work with.
You made an example above.
use a jumpshot with a rifle turret overcharged shot followed up with a rifle overcharged shot/net shot to ensure the rocket turrets overcharge hits with all that vulnerability stacked up increasing the damage even more”
You’ve used up almost all the skills said build had available to do that (it just lacks a blunderbuss somewhere).
A normal class, at this point, would just switch weapons. Engineer can’t. That engineer won’t be able to do anything other than autoattacking for the next 10s.
Unless that chain attack was able to kill the enemy (with the damage values you provide it likely won’t, even if the was using zerker stats, since only weapon skills would be affected) the engineer is basically screwed. Sure, he can use the elite, but those turrets won’t do damage either, so they can be ignored. It would just prolong the fight for a bit.
Also, having such few skills makes the means of avoiding them all the more powerful.
A couple dodges would be enough to avoid all the skills. I’m not even talking about defensive skills – just dodges. And with how those attacks are telegraphed, using them is no issue. Even assuming that you hit him and he dies, it all ends there. Having few skills means also having few means of combining them. It becomes easily predictable, and thus easily counterable as well – be it via dodges, CC or defensive skills.
Defensive skills that we won’t have available, by the way. And neither condition clears, apart from the healing turret. And no stun break either, unless you’ve got the thumper turret toolbelt available (meaning that you just detonated it).
Imho, unless they ever plan to completely change the whole turret design, the only way to go is some kind of redesign to make overcharges chain-skill-like. I reposted (i made it a month ago or so) such a redesign in another thread (Why do people play turret? -Brainstorm, by naphack). Maybe coupled with some kind of energy system, given per turret. So that some element of micromanagement is added to turrets, we have more skills available (and thus ways to chain them) but at the same time, they get to have sensible costs involved (making spamming them very counterproductive – similar to your rework, the autoattack would be terrible). And preventing the current turret use as something that is just placed down, overcharged and blasted (or picked up), since they will need to charge up to do the “higher-tiered” overcharges.
The only one making excuses here is you.
Multiple people already made proposals to change them in the past, and me as well.
Get some tea and feel free to search on these forums for yourself if you wish to, instead of spouting false accusations.
Also, it will be unfeasible to use turrets after the nerf, and that can be explained by some simple math (and other people already did that in the thread in the pvp section).
It isn’t a matter of being better – they will just die too quickly, and even if the engineer picked them up, there is just no reason to use something with such a low uptime.
If anything, at least i’m making some arguments. People fueled by engi/turret hate don’t even do that, they’re just gloating in their “revenge”.
But it still wouldn’t solve the problem of the lack of active gameplay.
And nothing short of a redesign of the overcharge or the whole turret concept will solve that. Especially if it will still require for our toolbelts to be replaced by detonation commands (thus locking us out from the proper, real toolbelts).
Cause as it stands now, with a single weapon, no proper toolbelts and just some overcharge every now and then, there is no way to have an active gameplay.
@Manuhell…. And the notion that one weapon set makes Engi’s inferior is your opinion.
Let’s be able to swap rifle with pistol shield… Then let’s see the forums cry :-D
That’s no opinion, it is just logic.
Engineers lack a second weapon. Everyone else has either got a second weapon or four attunements (that end up working like four weapon sets, even if balanced in a different way, and are also their class mechanic).
Every other class with a second main weapon also still has their mechanic.
Either there is something given by default that makes up for the lack of the second weapon, or there isn’t.
If there isn’t, engineer are inferior by default.
Again, that’s just pure logic. It’s not difficult.
Only person using the words, “inferior class” is you bub.
And that’s a fact. Engineer haven’t got a second main weapon and you weren’t able to say anything, given by default, that would make up for it.
Now your trying to put words in my mouth. You clearly don’t want a discussion, you want bias confirmation of your OPINION… not gonna happen bub!
Oh, everyone can follow the discussion above, you know. There is no opinion involved. Engineers have a single main weapon, that’s a fact.
Kits aren’t given for free, since you have to use utilities’ slots to use them. That’s another fact.
And you think that kits make up for the lack of a second weapon. You wrote that above. That’s a fact as well.
If engineers need them just to be on par with other classes, then it just means that engineers are, by default, an inferior class compared to the others. Else they would be on par to start with, they wouldn’t need kits.
It all comes out from your arguments. Live with it.
(edited by Manuhell.2759)
Yeah, they’re optional… And we have 4…
That’s right F O U R f1 skills….
…that are our class mechanic.
Other classes have got their class mechanic as well. Some even still have 3 or 4 skills like us. Yet, they still have their main weapon. Clearly that’s not the answer, then.
They’re optional, yes. You’re just not taking that option. Your choice
Then you’re saying that the engineer are an inferior class by default.
And that unless they slot a specific subset of utilities – kits- they can’t be on par with other classes. By design. While paying a yet additional cost – utilities’ slots are limited, after all. Other classes get that weapon slot for free, you know.
That’s quite some design flaw, you know – a forced drawback for something optional, with an additional cost involved.
I await eagerly for the moment when we’ll be brought back inline with the other classes. That’s a given, right?
Let me get back to you on how well sitting at 1500 range killing turrets works in Conquest. Not to mention that aside from Ranger and Staff Ele the rest of the classes can’t outrange traited turrets even if they wanted.
The alternative – that is already done by some classes, anyway (also,you missed engineers themselves there, with traited grenades) is that turrets just stay there and get mauled without doing anything.
Anyway, overcoming that limitation requires a grandmaster trait. And it can be done only with some turrets, anyway.
Turrets heal for about 370 every 3rd second. Thats better healing than you’re gonna see on other minions.
It requires yet another trait (master). Natively, you just can’t. Unless you spend a slot on a tool kit (and then you end up with two turrets and an untraited kit).
You mean just like every other minion? Well how about that.
I was kinda sure it wasn’t true for all the minions/AI pets of sort , but i could be wrong about that. I do admit my memory isn’t great, unfortunately.
Yeah, the sick 4% crit chance other minions have really is something to be envious off.
Overcharged rifle turret could benefit from that, the rate of fire is kinda nice after all. And a rocket occasionally critting would be nice as well. Anyway, it doesn’t even have to be the same value. You know, different classes and all.
Pretty sure they increased rate of fire across the board on all turrets last year.
Again, i’ll have to trust my memory about that (so better check it later) but as far as i remember, they only fixed them (net turret was also nerfed, though).
Because other meta PvE builds are so fun to play? Man, I’m just giggling with joy every time I play Fractal Hammer Guard or PS Warr.
At least it doesn’t require you to spam 1 for a good amount of time. As grenades have no proper autoattack, but you still have to deal that vulnerability after all. Truly a carpal tunnel syndrome build, ugh.
I call BS cuz the rest is mobile & your crying your not.. So you should be rewarded special compensation. Well boohoo!!!!! . Not 1 other class that can actually go afk on a cap like Engy can. So stop bluberring & asking for more. Cuz this is not a nerf. It’s obviously normal that turrets should take damage from every thing else like the rest of us. AFK….pffff.. this class is stupid as is.
So who needs mobility when you can just stand there?
Ok, ill agree for your turrets to be like floating drones instead. In condition, they Pop like mesmers clones. You cant have mobility, tanky & & OP damage all at the same time.
Again the moot comparisons. Engineers are not mesmers. Turrets aren’t clones. They are different, they work in different ways, they have different advantages and disadvantages (albeit, i can’t see much advantages left on turret’s part now).
And engineers even are disadvantaged to start with, anyway. No second main weapon and nothing is given by default to compensate for it.
I’ll copypaste a recent proposal i made in some thread.
Anyway, if they can fix the “braindead” AI, that’s good. Turrets could use a more active playstyle – i just don’t think these suggestions can give them one. Making them paper mache isn’t a solution, unless they plan on redesigning them completely; and neither would make them inherently more active.
The problem is about how you can have a full turret build, with a single main weapon, and still have active plays while the turrets are down, assuming that they won’t change some fundamental designs about them (like being immobile, relatively sturdy, and have their cooldown start after their death). Also, they would still have to work with the limitations of the command inputs – as now, we have at most two buttons per turret, one of which is used to destroy them.
The only way i can see, with these premises, would be to rework the overcharge system, along with shifting some power from the turret autoattacks to overcharges (not too much, though, else they become too bursty). Maybe multiple tiers of overcharges? Overcharges would work akin to chain skills as far as inputs go, assuming you’ve got the energy costs to pay for them, and there would be clear tells to understand what overcharge tier is being shot right now (albeit, unlike actual chain skills, it would only use one overcharge at a time). Tier 1 would just be a stronger autoattack with a relatively short cooldown, whereas tier 2 would be the current overcharge. In doing so, the autoattacks’ importance would be diminished, whereas the relevant attacks become more clear (and thus are more avoidable if ones wishes so).
If we want to do things more complex, turrets could have some kind of energy system. Like, they start with X energy when they’re put down, enough for a tier 2 overcharge. Turrets gain Y energy every Z seconds, and overcharges have different energy costs based on the tiers but also have lower cooldowns, thus leaving more micromanagement to the player’s hand. In doing so, there may even be a tier 3 overcharge with high energy costs, so that it needs some build-up time before it can be used after the turret has been put down (like, at least 15s, for example).
Turrets’ energy could then be displayed above each turret’s icon on the skill bar, as a sort-of boon when clicking on turrets, or may even be displayed as graphical changes on the turrets themselves (they could shift to a different model once they have enough energy to use an higher tier of overcharges).
Albeit, this was proposed when them being immune to crits and conditions was still a thing.
If it risks being destroyed easily and the real damage comes from the overcharge, in actual use it will end up like the healing turret works now.
Put down, overcharge, go. Especially if the cooldown still starts after the turret’s death.
I call BS.. you leave.. your turrets should self destruct.. point final.
Or else make pets/summons & illusion do the same. See how you feel about that.
Again with these moot comparisons – those can follow the user, turrets can’t.
And since the cooldown start after their death – unlike other minions – an engineer that has gone away can’t even just destroy them and resummon.
He’ll have to survive with whatever he has left for that time, and the toolbelt.
Classes are different, and work in different ways.
Turrets are disadvantaged? Turrets are better than Ranger Spirits, Guardian Spirit Weapons and Necro Minions combined. Turrets being immobile is a good thing. It means they don’t end up admiring walls while doing nothing when you’re getting mauled horribly in a fight due to broken pathing.
They can’t move – yes, that’s also a disadvantage, since it means they have no way to retaliate when outranged either – can’t get boons, can’t heal normally, their cooldown starts after their death, can’t crit, and their hp and toughness aren’t even that high since they were balanced over the lack of conditions and not being able to be critted.
They do have a bunch of disavantages. They still have those. They’re just getting new ones. And turrets are better than the ones you mentioned only because those one got nerfed in the past, anyway (during a time where turrets had something like 30 separate bugs and thus were useless for completely different reasons – aside from new traits or changes to them, turrets didn’t actually get buffs as far as i remember).
I played Turret Engi all the way to Champ Genius. I know fully well how much better it is than other AI specs.
Of course, they just happened to be nerfed to oblivion before turrets were even fixed (the 30 or so bugs mentioned above).
And I never want to see the day when turrets are affected by their own Fury/Prot/Retal. And don’t act like Engineers are some kind of underdog class. Aside from WvW they’re at the top of viability in PvP and PvE.
PvP, maybe. Cele works well with the amount of hybrid skills the engineer got, until they’ll nerf it, of course. And obviously being a control-oriented class in a conquest mode has its advantages.
PvE, there is basically a single build that’s actually considered good, and it requires to spam grenades most of the time just to spam vulnerability. Sorry if i’m not exactly happy about such a ~fun~ build to play. But that’s OT, either way.
No. You won’t find thief that can dispatch a Turret Engi in a 1v1 with moderate effort/time spent, even after this patch hits. No matter the gap between the players, Turrets will definitely do extremely well against players much better than you.
Guess you don’t realize how glassy they will actually be once crits and conditions will be involved. You’ll see, assuming that someone will still use them. Not that you’ll even care, anyway.
Heart of Thorns is coming. Turrets are completely cancerous NOW, and I think anyone that PvPs should seriously appreciate ArenaNet acting on the statistics of how Turret Engineers are vastly over-performing. I am grateful.
I’m not grateful, instead.
Cause i don’t think they’ll ever redesign them – not now, it seems, and neither after HoT. And neither i think that they actually care about doing that. Especially seeing how turrets spent the first year having any genre of bugs (something like 25 or 30 bugs at least, we even had a dedicated thread in the engineer section). They’ll never be changed from this state, and just end up unused.
Well for starters, most minions can’t passively spam every boon with 30%-50% uptime in a 600 radius. Now if they were to make it so turrets themselves weren’t affected by their own boons from Experimental Turrets, then by all means I have no problem with it.
For starters, most minions don’t come with all the disadvantages turrets have to start with, if we have to compare. And their user isn’t forced to use a single main weapon, and their mechanic isn’t sort-of locked when using their minions.
And of course, they may not have such a grandmaster trait.
But what you’re basically saying is “they’re free to receive boons, as long as in actual use, they won’t receive any”. Cause a turret engineer has no other practical means to apply boons, apart from regeneration from the healing turret.
Moot comparisons, as usual. Engineers have to get inline only when disadvantages are involved, but six gods forbid them from being inline on the advantages as well.
You’re basically saying it will work only versus people that have no idea of what they’re doing, independently of how good the user may be.
Guess we’ve different ideas of what “perfect” means.
Imho, a redesign would be perfect, and this change is just terrible and lazy.
The aoe yes you would have to target manually just like any other one the turret will last till its done using its overcharge so for the rocket example it will fire its barrage and explode after its done casting.
Assuming i didn’t understand wrong, the turret would do nothing until you use the overcharge, and then would be destroyed.
If it is so, the item itself has no actual gameplay meaning; we could just have that same skill and cast it ourselves over the area chosen, instead of having to rely on a destructible item placed on terrain (and visible to everyone).
Thus, either the downsides comes with some upside (comparatively good damage/cooldown) or there is no meaning on having it designed like that.
I stupidly posted this in the wrong thread, but here eat your hearts out.
Here is a grand idea since turrets will be like all other minions being able to be crit and hit with condis probably a good thing, why dont turrets get a rework.
1:update turret traits for cds and bring them on par with other classes pet style traits perhaps a trait that allows them to repair themselves for a percentage of the damage they deal
2:Turrets are now burst type kills and can crit and benefit from your power/ferocity
3:Rework overcharges rifle turret should fire a channeled stream of rounds for a burst ability, Rocket turret is changed to a targeted aoe barrage of smaller missiles, thumper is fine, net turret fires a net wall like the underwater speargun, flame turret fires a 360 aoe glob of napalm at targeted location with having the ability to crit and increased damage they would actually be useful while they are out.
4: Overcharge now destroys the turret after the effect ends.
My thoughts on this is it keeps the turrets from being a complete AI build and more on timing of your overcharge activation for burst and control being that if you miss with it or just bad timing you dont get another chance until you can lay the turret again this can be balanced as well as allowing a turret cd trait. Since they will be far more squishy I think having traits that allow some form of damage to repair would allow for those few precious seconds to allow the use of overcharging without it dying instantly. In short I think this would be a welcome and fun change making turrets scary while out, but not a complete lay and walk away build as it is now.
It would work like any normal aoe ingame but we would have to place them beforehand and they could easily be destroyed before even being used (or just after being activated).
Either they are really strong compared to similar skills or they’re just not worth the risk and effort.
But at least there is some thought about the whole idea, even if i may not agree with some details.
I do. Do you understand what ‘’I don’t care because I don’t think AI builds should be viable at all.’’means?
So basically you just want for an entire category to be useless just because it may involve some AI in some form, independently from anything else.
Can’t say i agree, unfortunately.
I would rather see them usable, as long as most of the importance is given to active play, or either replaced by something that is usable, instead of just having less choices.
No, I said I don’t care and I really don’t. Yes, it is good for the game if there are not builds like turret engi viable. You know why? Because as a player I appreciate good gameplay and fighting people who are skilled. Turret engis promote bad play, it takes literally no skill to play one, therefore creating an enviroment when being good at the game means nothing. Since this is pvp and ANet wants to go esports, builds like this should never exist. In ranked, unranked, tournament, anywhere.
Do you even understand what “redesigned” means?
Cause you’re talking like any “turret” skill must and will inevitably end up like that.
They didn’t even fix hobosacks yet and you want them to plague us with robosacks?
No, please, at least have mercy.
I don’t really care, if turret engi is not viable anymore, then it’s good for the game. It should NOT be viable even.
That was what i was saying above, you know. You don’t even want them redesigned, just made useless, and just because you hate “turrets”. Even going as far as saying that’s good for the game. Hah.
You think that if something is able be to critically hit, it has to have the ability to do so, too? Same with conditions and cleanse. You don’t have to balance things like this, you can just increase their base damage. However, turrets base damage is still VERY strong. They can be positioned outside AOE and midair, therefore they are less vunerable than other AI which needs to be in range to do some kind of damage, turrets do not.
After all, AI builds should be completely removed from the game, it does not promote a better gameplay or heatlhy enviroment. AKF builds are just bad.
And like other people, you just bundle all the “AI builds” together without considering that classes are different from each others.
Other “AI builds” aren’t in a class that lacks a second main weapon without any compensation, to start with.
And neither block proper access to their class mechanic – as you can’t even use the proper turret toolbelt until it gets destroyed.
So a turret engineer has nothing more than a main weapon, the turret he has placed down, and overcharges every now and then.
Make them glass, and that engineer will have no utilities most of the time, and just some toolbelts to rely upon. And no, those toolbelts don’t make up for a class mechanic, second weapon and utilities all together.
Thus it will just be terrible, and people won’t use them.
Or they could have redesigned the whole concept of turrets. Made autoattacks less prominent and overcharges more a matter of micromanagement. Or changed how turrets work at a whole.
And it would have been a far, better work.
But people don’t care about them being usable, in any form. They just want them gone. And this is what they’re giving them.
By making them die in a few seconds?
Oh, if you want to “improve the playability” by completely removing turrets from any game mode (and since they were effectively used only in pvp, that’s what will happen, with the exclusion of the healing one…that is never used as a turret, anyway), well, that will surely happen. Can’t be otherwise, they’re basically a bunch of disadvantages glued together now.
But at least spare me the rethoric of talking about it as a “positive” change. They’re smitherbooning a category of utilities into oblivion instead of giving it some decent redesign. That’s the most lazy, negative choice they could have done.
“So you’re claiming that engineers are supposed to be an inferior class. I wonder if you’re even aware of it.
Tell me, what should make up for the lack of a second weapon?"
I’ve never proclaimed that Engineers are suppose to be inferior, nor have I ever said they needed a nerf.
Sounds like a rehtorical question but sure I’ll bite.
I would trade Any of my weapons just to have one of your kits. My kingdom for that Gear shield of yours.
Then i guess i shall just redirect you to the answer i’ve done above (or on the previous page).
“Lack of weapons” is a poor excuse to have tougher AI compared to everyone else.
But you did say that turrets must be equal to the other AI utilities you described. If they are, and the engineer still lacks a weapon, what can make it equal?
Obviously, either there is something, or the engineer is inherently inferior.
Er.. Kits…. Lots of kits…
…that are optional, not given by default, and require utility slots to be used. Even if it was so, engineer would end up paying a price – lack of a second weapon – and then paying additional prices – in utility slots – to make up for it.
Still, a full turret, gadget or elixir build has no second main weapon, but has no kit either.
Thus either the design is flawed, or the answer is wrong and something else has to make up for it. Retry.
(edited by Manuhell.2759)
So turrets are now as weak as spirit weapons, minionmancers and spirit rangers.
Yet you all think that Turrets should last longer than other AI classes? Nope. You’ve just been weighed and measured. AI has always been a 1v1 duelist/bunk spec.
The nerf is fine.
So you’re claiming that engineers are supposed to be an inferior class. I wonder if you’re even aware of it.
Tell me, what should make up for the lack of a second weapon?
The nerf won’t make any significant difference.
Well, that’s not correct either. It won’t make any difference versus people that ignored the turrets. It will make them completely useless versus people who target them (cause they’ll be obliterated). And it won’t change the playstyle at all, cause it will be still mostly passive.
Oh, if they wanted to remove turrets from pvp, they most likely succedeed. Apart from the healing turret (that no one uses as a proper turret) no one will use them again after being mauled in a couple matches.
(edited by Manuhell.2759)