(edited by Manuhell.2759)
We already tried it. Every time we left turrets out in the field and they were destroyed in few seconds. And that’s with traits making them sturdier – something that gyros even lack.
And unlike most turrets, those are meant to be used in melee, since that’s where the scrapper should be.
How can you even think that the results will be different?
It doesn’t make sense cause it goes against the whole concept of having achievements for doing such things, but devs seems to be fine with it, so…there isn’t much to do about it.
Yep, considering the datamined name and icons, i would guess the original concept was, indeed, scrapped.
Right now it seems to be so. That is, if they don’t nerf it during the bwe, following that design line of “can’t have anything nice by itself because that plus kits would be too much, thus forcing us into kits either way”.
And that essentially means that elite specializations on the engineer are meaningless by design, since the main weapon can’t be good (again, by design) and the utilities can’t compete with kits either way.
They could as well just give us a trait line and some mechanic and be done with it.
A skill where both the base and the toolbelt – cause we should also remember that those effects are balanced over being two separate skills, one of them being part of the class mechanic – are actually useful and that can synergize well with other skills.
For a class that depends so much on its utilities it should be the norm (for non-kit skills), not some outliner like it is now.
If the other non-kit skills were as useful as HT, we wouldn’t have to depend on kits so much.
I also remember a ton of people delighted of turrets being nerfed to oblivion and an handful of people pointing out that those changes would have made them useless that were shunned by all the other people. And nothing being done after that.
Let’s not act like many people even care about having them useable, let alone balanced.
We just have to hope devs aren’t included in that group. But given the hate for turrets in the pvp section, i have serious doubts about it. And gyros are essentially turrets 2.0 .
Because we utterly depend on those utilities, since we lack that second weapon slot.
So either whatever we get actually works for its intended duration, or we can just throw them away and just keep using kits. Since they can’t kill those, at least.
We already saw what happened when they put those “weaknesses and counters” to turrets. No one uses them as turrets anymore, just something to put down and blast directly, since they would die in some seconds either way. Gyros will be the same.
It isn’t like their survival even depends on us. They just follow the scrapper and do whatever the AI says them to do.
And since there are things called “kits” that don’t even suffer from this issue, either those gyro will do something real good while they’re alive (and enough to compensate for the downtime) or we can just use kits instead. Since those are effective all the time. And we don’t even have to worry about them being killed.
Let’s be serious, who can think they’ll even survive for their full duration? Over ten seconds, lol…they’ll end up dead in four or five seconds, at most. Even less in some cases, since they’re supposed to follow the scrapper into the fights.
We all saw what happened after they made turrets susceptible to criticals and conditions. It will just happen again with the gyros.
Guess they will never learn for their past mistakes…
The function gyro is also the whole new mechanic of the class, and it is already limited by its functions…it doesn’t do anything else other than ressing and finishing people. Making it already situational enough.
Having a long cooldown on top of it is just outrageous.
Well, it’s all clearly explained with science. We have satellites up there. Beside shooting down orbital lasers, they’re also probably equipped with some weather-related device. Both for weather reports and to change the weather itself whenever is needed (this also explains how the weather is almost always the same, in Tyria).
After all, that’s what we need to defeat those dragons. Zhaitan wasn’t defeated with some measly magic tricks, we used mechanical airships to do so. Magic can’t do much versus enemies that can eat that up for breakfast.
Leave your outdated magic ways in the past, the future lies in technology.
#technomancer2016 #engiarethefuture
Can’t see what’s the point of the Sneak Gyro. It stealths people…and then gives the location away with the gyro itself, as that is still visible. It essentially depends on your enemies not noticing it.
Aside from that, the article mentions about gyro that “If traited, they’ll explode in a larger area while stunning foes.”
Where is that trait? We have a full list below (3 minor, 9 others) and there is nothing doing that.
Imho, the new mechanic we’ll get is an energy bar (steam?heat?) like revenant’s one. And we could be able to use said energy to empower hammer skills and to use upkeep skills (provided by drones).
Maybe they’re indeed a reworking, but one that locks out old turrets?
Like, “as a forge you’ve learned how to improve turrets, now you can use drones in their place; unfortunately these drones aren’t self-sustaining as turrets, they consume a lot of energy when active, so get this energy bar and deal with it yourself”.
Imho, the droids won’t end up being the actual mechanic.
I guess we may get an energy bar that gives us a way to use upkeep skills (with both the hammer and the “droids”). It would fit, especially if the hammer ends up also having electrical-themed skills (one of the icons seems to point at that).
And those “droids” could end up with a control scheme similar to turrets. As in, they have a skill on the toolbelt, that skill is replaced by that control command while active (it could give us an aoe pointer to move the droid in the selected position) and we use the utility to activate/deactivate it.
And keeping it active it may consume some energy (thus, the upkeep).
Anyway, we’ll see. Guess we’ll have to wait two weeks at most, after all.
Having “overpowered” utilities in the elite specialization wouldn’t work either.
Elite specializations aren’t supposed to be upgrades, after all.
And it would end up being one, if that happened – people would just use kits along with whatever overpowered utility is good for the situation. Reaping the benefits of both. Since they can just use all of them together.
Same for the hammer, anyway. If kits can pull the other weapons, they’ll just be even better with a good weapon.
The only way to make that work would be to forcefully disable kits while the elite specialization is in use, so that they can balance the two things separately.
And even then, it isn’t like it wouldn’t pose other issues – namely, we go from a “forced-kits” core specialization to a “forced-whatever it gives” elite one, since only the new instruments provided would be balanced toward a non-kit dependant use.
The writing was on the wall since the moment we knew about elite specializations and new utility types, being a profession that is designed and balanced over a particular utility type (on the detriment of everything else).
If they’ve found a way to solve this issue, well done. But seeing as this elite specialization was one of the earliest ones they presented, and yet we still haven’t seen anything outside of some icons, i have quite some doubts about the outcome. Still, we’ll see.
Whatever those skills are, they don’t seem to be kits.
Thus why bother guessing the exact type?
We already know they can’t compete, anyway. Like any future kit-less elite specialization. Since we’re seemingly based upon that (not-so-optional) utility type…
Because i keep seeing people saying that our skills are balanced and have to be balanced over their optional traits.
And that just can’t be true for some of them – like flamethrower and juggernaut, or bombs and elixir-infused bombs (since they just deleted it, and it isn’t like bombs have had any change in that regard).
Skills shouldn’t be balanced over their optional traits – it just forces people to get them.
There is a difference between improving a skill and making such traits essentially mandatory. When a trait is made too strong, it ends up in the latter case. Making grandmaster traits that work on single utilities further increases the risk of them giving effects far too strong. With the side-effect of being forced to balance the utility/kit taking for granted that trait. And making the base one awful.
And that’s why they changed grenadier in the first place.
And what they do then? An even worse version with the mortar.
It makes no sense. No other class is balanced like that. It isn’t like warrior shouts have an hp cost just because you can recover health by using a trait. So why should some skills be made extremely weaker on purpose just because of some trait that doubles their damage? Because the skill would end up too strong? That’s an issue with the trait, not the base skill.
I picked Juggernaut on purpose. Because it had all those changes over two years.
It started giving stability and toughness along with a penalty on movement, it ended up giving might and toughness for a long time and now it gives stability and might.
And yet you people are saying that the flamethrower is supposed to be balanced over having some might that wasn’t even initially given by such trait, some toughness that it isn’t even given anymore, and some stability that wasn’t even given for an interval of two years. While being mostly unchanged since the release of the game – it received some buffs of offensive nature and a QoL feature on flame blast, at most. And those were given during the timeframe when juggernaut already gave might stacks, by the way – so it means they deemed necessary to make the kit better despite the trait.
But what do i know,after all everyone knows that the Flamethrower is balanced over having stability all the time.
Well, yes. I think Flame Jet is naturally a weaker auto-attack to what the Bomb Kit and Grenade Kit have precisely because of its defensive options on paper. How else could you view it otherwise?
I wasn’t talking about the defensive options given by the kit – that, by the way, aren’t changed by any of the available traits. I was esplicitely talking about stability, since there is a trait that gives it while using the flamethrower.
Since you keep saying that anything is balanced over their traits, tell me, is the flamethrower balanced over having stability all the time?
The brunt of your criticism toward the Mortar Kit seems to stem from the fact that it’s mediocre untraited. Isn’t this the case for most everything that we have? Without Steel Packed Powder, the Grenade Kit is pretty mediocre in PvE. Without Chemical Rounds and Incendiary Powder, condition builds are pretty mediocre in PvP.
It makes sense as a guardian if you’re going to run a shout build to run the proper traits and rune set. If you’re going to run with Rampage on a warrior it’s pretty critical that you have Peak Performance.
Some of those traits didn’t even exist until the specialization update, or at least not in their current forms. In some cases skills didn’t change either, or were changed due to other mechanics involved (burning/poison stacking).
But would you say that warrior shouts are balanced toward healing allies and curing conditions, just because a trait and some runes can make you so?
Even better, what about bombs? There is now a trait to decrease their delay. Have they been rebalanced over having such possibility?
According to you, it should make sense for them to do so. Even if it would make the addition of that trait pointless to begin with.
Same for the juggernaut trait mentioned above. One that was changed quite some times during the years.
They are supposed to be added bonuses, not mandatory ones.
You really can’t cut corners with your traits and think you’re going to be making the most of a utility or elite skill.
Sure, but what should be the outcome of that “making the most”?
Having a good skill or just an average one?
Cause balancing skills over their traited versions just means they’ll be barely good when traited and terrible when untraited. That’s exactly what plagued the grenade kit, and further emphatized by the terrible idea of putting a grandmaster trait that worked on a single utility (thus having to give really strong effects to make it worth the cost).
And it ends up being the same with the mortar kit, too.
Ironically, a skill would end up more useful by having less or no strong traits available, if any, since it means that it was never balanced over those traits to begin with.
Having the possibility of using traits should make the skills affected better, not worse.
Making a grandmaster trait that works on a single utility is nonsensical to begin with. Being a grandmaster forces it to have a strong effect, and working on a single utility makes it even more so (and i should add, that’s why other classes usually have grandmaster traits that work on whole categories…it makes it so that those bonuses can be spread over various utilities, instead of focused into one). And that’s without considering any other trait involved, something that further exacerbates the issue.
That’s likely to make them overpowered, but if there are such balancing issues because skills are made too strong by traits, then the issue is with the traits themselves, not with the skills.
Rebalance them, and if they end up not being strong enough for a grandmaster…just avoid to make them grandmaster tier to begin with.
ITT: Skills are balanced around their traits.
Who knew?
Yeah, it isn’t like traits are supposed to make utilities and weapons better, right?
Let’s just put some trait and nerf the base weapons and utilities, what’s the problem.
After all, it isn’t like they reworked Grenadier because it had that same issue.
Oh wait, they did. And then put an even worse version as Siege Rounds.
But what do i know,after all everyone knows that the Flamethrower is balanced over having stability all the time.
This is grenadier all over again, with a nerf on the grenade kit and an elite slot to spend instead.
Any advantage that got listed mainly has to do with the bonuses given by the grandmaster trait. Orbital Strike is just a mediocre skill without the second tap (since it has been balanced over that second tap). And the field durations have likely been balanced over that 50% increase. Like the old grenade skills were balanced over the addition of that third grenade (again, a 50% increase).
And those are just the issues related to the trait, anyway.
The kit itself is just a bunch of fields that can’t do much by themselves and are easily avoided – be it because of the traveling time at longer ranges (ironically, the one advantage that kit should offer) or because people can just move out and avoid most of their effects, even if shooted at close range. Sure, blasting some of them can give useful effects…but apart from the frost aura and an easier water field to blast, there is nothing new. And it isn’t like we’ve got infinite blasts, anyway – using them for those fields just means we won’t use them for other purposes (like stacking might).
At least the other elites work just by themselves, they don’t need outside sources to get some sensible effect.
If anything, i would say it is even overrated.
If it weren’t for the rng involved with Elixir X or the terrible survivability of turrets that plagues Supply Crate, no one should even bother using it.
I could have got it at the time, but i didn’t know anything about it or the gem store either, so i never claimed mine. I still feel a bit annoyed when i think about it.
Guess that giving some kind of selfish effect would be the best choice, as far as balancing goes.
If we’re talking about some passive bonus added to vigor, i think that something defensive would be appropriate, since that’s what vigor does (it isn’t like endurance has other uses aside from dodging, after all).
Otherwise it could process something “on dodge” as long as vigor is active. Maybe give some might or fury, since we’ve got some built-up adrenaline to vent out.
Eh, whatever they are, they aren’t kits. So why even bother? If they balance them like any other utility we’ve got, all we’ll do with them is trying them a couple times and put them up in the dustbin after that.
In some ways I feel like this is the old Grenadier all over again, but now only on one skill instead of a whole kit. The mortar trait gives this two hits and thus double damage, so this skill is kinda lackluster when you don’t trait for it, but they can’t buff it because it would be to strong when traited. Bad trait design.
Guess it is the same for the field durations, so that’s probably it.
They likely balanced the mortar kit over the traited version like they did with the grenade one back then.
Actually, I think it is really good design. Kits are made mandatory not because anet came from on high and demand that we use them, but instead, they HEAVILY incentivize their use to the point that not using them is obviously a bad idea in most cases.
How can you even call such a thing a “good design” is out of my mind.
If the rest of the utilities are so bad that we can’t do almost anything without kits by design, it’s the same as making them mandatory. Except that we even have to pay utilities for them, further reducing our choices.
The only “mandatory” skills everyone should have are their main mechanics. The ones everyone gets by default.
Especially since they decided to put elite specializations as bundles composed by a main weapon, set of utilities and a trait line.
What would the point of those utilities be if they’re just supposed to not be able to compete with kits? They would be making a bunch of skills that won’t be used in practice, supposedly, by design.
It should Never be nullified, U dont see them deleting Attunements for Elementalists.. Or Deleting pets for Rangers… or Deleting Clones from Mesmers… We shouldnt lose our core mechanics either.
I can’t see the point of comparing kits to attunements or pet, or even clones anyway. Our main mechanic isn’t kits, but the toolbelt.
Kits are theoretically optional and compete with other utilities.
Attunements and pets aren’t the same – you can’t even choose to not have them.
And clones are given with every mesmer weapon or off-hand weapons – and then used via their main mechanic of shattering them to get various effects.
All of those have a thing in common: they’re forced upon the class. Any user of the class will always have them available, at every time.
The same is true for the toolbelt in the case of the engineer. But not for kits.
Putting them as optional and then forcing their use is both a design and balance blunder. We may have got used to it, but it doesn’t mean it ever was a good idea to do so.
Shouts could have worked easily for drones, imho – we just have to think of them as orders given to the drones.
That’s not something new either, by the way. It would just mirror how the ranger uses his shouts, albeit he interacts with the pet in that case.
Even then, i doubt they’ve given shouts to three or more profession, so while the option is still on the table, i don’t think it is likely to see them on the engineer’s elite specialization.
People just didn’t pay attention to the wording used in the blog posts. We already knew multiple elite specializations could have got access to shouts.
One specialization will have access to traps, while at least one profession’s elite specialization will be a full set of six shouts.
https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/specializations-part-two-reward-tracks-and-elite-specializations/
And this also dismisses Traps as an utility type for engineers. One class will have access to them, and they’ve already revealed who they are – that is, dragonhunters.
This is kind of the case for every class. Virtues are the guardian class mechanic, but they’re no where near as powerful as consecrations and shouts. Steal is the thief class mechanic, but it’s no where near as powerful as stealth. Even in this thread you have people talking about minion builds being effective even though it’s probably the one build that least relies on necromancer’s profession mechanic, death shroud. And really let’s be serious: the thing that makes mesmers as broken as they are right now isn’t their shatter mechanic but their mantras.
Every class has one subset of skills that outperform the rest, and every class has a subset of skills that literally never get used. When have you ever seen a spirit weapon guardian in a PvP tournament? When have you ever seen a meditation guard record-clear a dungeon? When have you ever seen a physical-only warrior in anything?
Engineers don’t have it any better or worse than any class in the game. Kits and elixirs get the lion’s share of our focus, but gadgets are situationally useful—and Slick Shoes was once meta—and our best healing skill is a turret. Hell, our best elite still arguably is a package of turrets, too.
We really don’t have it as bad as you think. Forgoing kits would be the same as rolling a signet warrior. Classes are brought in PvE, PvP, and WvW for specific reasons: and if a mesmer isn’t willing to run glamour skills and reflect in a FOTM 50 run they can get the eff out of my party.
I don’t think they are comparable. Those utilities of other classes that you mention could just need some rebalancing, and they would be done with it.
Kits supposedly have a more profound impact on the class design itself – at least enough to make devs decide, somewhere in development, to not give weapon swap and just make the class dependent on them. How can you rebalance the other utilities to ever be on par, or just seen as viable alternatives, when the whole class is supposedly based upon them? We can’t just say “buff the other utilities and give them low enough cooldowns” as that would make them have effects too strong for single skills (and people already whine enough for Slick Shoes, to make an example) and neither they can have the same range of uses of multiple different skills (as they’re single skills). The only way they’ve done it so far is to make them do things that kit don’t do, and even then they struggle getting some use.
We’re far too reliant on kits – and they’re already given by the base class – and not enough reliant on base weapons.
So what do we have to gain from an elite spec? A new weapon that won’t see much use? Utilities that can’t compete with kits by design? A new mechanic, maybe, but it depends on what they do exactly.
As i said above, unless they give some kits with every elite spec, i doubt they’ll see some widespread use.
OP will be delighted to know we’re already getting farming machines with HoT.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/hot/Reaper-Farming-Machine
:D
Even if our new utility-skills turn out to be a let-down, we still have kits
If anything, they will be a let-down BECAUSE we have kits.
How do you expect anything to compete with them? People already consider them as the most important part of the class, even more than the actual class mechanic. They’re essentially forced upon, despite being, in theory at least, optional. All fine and well until we get new utilities. And they just end up unable to compete, thus essentially useless for the most part.
And it will be the same for any specialization we’ll ever get. We’re too much dependant on kits to have something that works without them.
Sure, they could throw a curve ball and give a couple new kits tied to the specialization along with the usual new utility type everyone gets. But i doubt they’ve thought to do something like that.
Aside from that, i hope they won’t have the awful idea of giving us minions. Especially after what they did to turrets.
Engi has 15 as well, by default.
And kits are optional, anyway – so the whole class shouldn’t revolve over their use.
If they’re supposed to be something the whole class is designed and balanced upon, they should have been the class mechanic. They aren’t.
But it is no use asking for it. Revenants are one of the strong points of the expansion, so they have to cater to the people interested on it. Gotta sell the expansion, after all.
Engineers…well, we can just be left alone in some corner.
I’m not following you or agree for that matter. If our toolbelt skills are our profession mechanics, how exactly then is that mechanic or flavor being thrown under the bus by Revenants getting weapon swapping with their pre-existing utility swapping?
Because it doesn’t make sense anymore in terms of “costs”, that’s the issue.
The default is having two weapon slots, an utility bar and a class mechanic.
Elementalists lose a weapon slot in order to get multiple elemental-themed weapon sets, albeit weaker (as in, longer cooldowns and such).
Engineers lose a weapon slot in order to get an additional bar of skills paired with their utilities, albeit weaker. And as far as balance design goes, the engineer’s main weapon is also supposed to be weak.
Revenants get a different bar of utilities on swap and a sort of energy system that resembles thieves’ main weapon (sure, some skills have short cooldowns in addition to the cost, but that’s only to avoid them being spammed; also, they get half bar on swap).
Even if the skills they get are fixed (but that’s true for the engineer as well, anyway – toolbelts are tied to the single utilities like legends are tied with the full set of utilities) they still get a full bar of them (and i wouldn’t say they’re weaker than usual ones either).
It made sense that there was a cost to pay for the added versatility of having more skills available – namely, the second weapon set.
Now they’re basically getting it “for free”. Unlike engineers (and elementalists).
So, what’s the point of the “prices” paid by those two? Especially by the engineer, since the revenant end up with what essentially is a second utility bar – sure, on swap and with energy costs instead of cooldowns, but still made by proper utilities.
Sure our kits are optional, but most engineer builds revolve around or incorporate kits. The reason why we even have toolbelt skills are our profession mechanic is because we would otherwise lose utilities by equipping kits. Fact of the matter is that ArenaNet assumes that we will be using kits. Kits and toolbelt skills work hand-in-hand in the assumptions about our profession and how it is designed to optimally function.
And balance wise it is completely nonsensical. What’s the point of any other category of utilities if engineers are supposed to just use kits and are supposedly designed or balanced over their use? That’s something you can do for things you give natively – not for something optional.
-cut because the whole post doesn’t fit in a single one otherwise-
Oh, indeed they end up being essential (and throw the supposed customization under the bus, since we end up using always the same kits and maybe something else just because kits can’t do that particular thing). That only makes more apparent how nonsensical the design is – optional utilities that end up being essentially forced choices becuase the class would be terrible without them.
I can tell you as a player with two level 80 Engineers that I don’t feel that the Revenant is stepping on my toes, even with the addition of weapon swap. The Revenant still looks as if it has far less flexibility and customization than my Engineers. Revenants cannot choose how many legends they want; they are stuck with two. As a Revenant, I’ll have my two equipped weapons and swappable legend utilities, which will be twenty skills. As an Engineer, I can have four kits, my equipped weapon, and my toolbelt skills. How would you like to count that? Twenty five skills and loose change?
Engineers have no customization or flexibility as well, in practice – either you use kits (and thus their toolbelts) or you are for the most part useless.
And even if you end up with many skills…most of them will end up being not much effective. Since kits are essentially hybrid weapons. Not that they’re that strong either, anyway – the only reason why it works is that we can just efficently rotate the cooldowns due of the lack of limitations on swap.
In the end, revenants end up having a mechanic that is (thieves+engineers’ mechanic)^2. More utilities than the first, more weapons than the second, and versatile use of utilities alike thieves can versatily use their weapons.
And i can’t think this wasn’t being done for any other reason than selling more copies of the expansion, anyway – can’t have one of the selling points seem weak (or even average), after all.
Engineer’s class mechanic isn’t the kits, though – it is the toolbelt – a bar of toned down utilities. Essentially more utilities in exchange of less weapon skills. Sure, there are kits, but they’re optional – and paid with utility slots.
Whereas revenants get an additional bar of normal ones on swap. And now even a second weapon set. All for free.
They’ve just thrown the design of the engineer under the bus, basically. Not that i’m surprised – they have to find some way to sell the expansion to people, after all.
I agree with the OP. It totally defeats the point of having dungeon-related achievements and “difficult” dungeons in general, so i don’t think it makes sense at all.
I can’t even see why it should be permitted to sell dungeon paths in the LFG tab, since the point of joining such a group is to skip all the “group-related activity” and just get the reward.
But i assume they did it mostly to cater to casuals and bad players that however feel entitled to rewards. Usual “everybody is a winner” mentality, basically.
I can’t even understand why they even prohibited selling “home instance” entrances, though, since it is essentially the same as above – both are about joining someone in a private instance to get the rewards, with no group content involved. And both should be either permitted or prohibited, as far as logic goes.
Not really. The only way it’s different is the same way that saying you own a dog is different from saying you own a specific breed of dog.
If you read too far into what they said and were dissapointed, the it’s no fault of theirs.
In our case, they said we would have had many dogs and we got a can of dog food instead.
Again – being “subject to change” doesn’t mean “we gave a list, now let’s ignore it completely and just remove them all while saying nothing until the patch is out”.
What’s the point of announcing a ton of welcome changes just to scrap them all later, apart from fooling people and making them raise their expectations?
k to be fair they spouted every 10 seconds that the various reveals and what not were subject to change. So calling people liars is a bit unfair. NOTE I also want the range that we were told we’d get.
Fine, but “subject to change” is quite different from “we changed idea and you won’t get any of those as baseline; oh, and we removed them entirely, so you can’t get them at all”.
Uhm, in the real GW2, the one on the live servers, that everyone but you seem to be playing skillful active defense is already better than defensive stats. That’s why zerker meta is possible in the first place.
Yeah – that’s the issue. As i said – while offensive stats have active uses (most of the skills) defensive stats have no active uses at all, and even defensive stats are indipendent of defensive stats (unlike offensive skills, that highly depend on offensive stats).
People can be good enough to use offensive stats and still retain a good defense via active means, bypassing the need of defensive stats.
Meanwhile, people using defensive stats that are equally as good see their stat investment denied by their use of active defensive skills and have no means of achieving a good offense.
… what? As shown by the Arah run ^ you don’t need to play well if you run tanky healing builds. It’s either skill+zerker or AA+healingpower.
If you want both 1000+ healing power AND skill to be mandatory that would singlehandedly kill every single non-cleric/magi build. The consequence: same playstyle as today but runs take five times as long.
That arah run is more than an year and half old, with a ton of changes since then (and even some bugs or “balance” changes fixed, like the flame greatsword one). And they still had to use their skills well, it isn’t like they just stayed there autoattacking all the time. Not something anyone would be able to do, basically. And as said by the OP post, healing skills are largely pulled by their base value, rather than by the stat involved.
Beside that, as you said, right now you can’t use your skill with anything other than a zerker. Because the others either scale bad or have just no active uses (and thus can’t be used well by definition).
So, why not just have a way for people to use defensive stats and still display their skills?
Seems fair to me. People using purely defensive stats won’t have good offense. People using purely offensive stats won’t have good defense. And both need to be good to use those stats.
I didn’t know this. If Jana is correct, the OP’s point is moot.
It scales really poorly – that’s the point of the OP.
1320+0.2*Healing Power, to be exact.
(edited by Manuhell.2759)
I’ve have not 1nce seen players demand healing or tank gear to get nerfed.
You are pulling this statement out of no where (to not get more explicid). Most arguments are usually just “nerf zerker so I can use gear xyz”.
But you are indeed opposed in a change that would make healing power scale better, at the cost of a worse base healing.
Because you feel entitled to have good healing skills and defensive skills (without investing in healing and defensive stats) while retaining your dps.
Not sure what you mean with active defences sacling with defensive stats. Please elaborate. Should my dodge on zerker gear not make me immune, my reflect only reflect part of the damage? If so, where is the cutoff?
I would rather tie endurance regeneration to a defensive stat (toughness, for example) and some skill effects to other. Like, make endure pain absorb vitality*X damage, or something like that.
So that they end up having active uses, unlike now. And by being active, they can also have skillful uses.
The only result would be, players find the next highest minimum of defensive stats absolutely required, and go rest damage. Hence a new zerker meta is born.
See, i don’t care a bit about the meta. A meta will always be there, after all.
But i would like to see less disparity in the stats, at least as long as gear provides them in equal numbers.
What’s the point of stats like healing power, if it scales badly on purpose, it has to compete with stats that scale far better and it is given in the same quantity of them?
Opportunity costs dictate to get other stats instead, then.
Why bother with defensive stats, if the game provides defensive skills that are completely independent from them?
Would you think it would be logical if we had skills that don’t depend from offensive stats but that would still do tons of damage? Well, it wouldn’t make sense, obviously. But the same goes for the active defensive skills we’ve got so far.
Yeah, but unfortunately the people who want to play that way (with that kind of stats) also demand 10 minute clear times on par with full zerker groups. Some people want not only the cake, but the plate as well.
One could say the same about zerkers – they want the same healing and defense of people who invest stats in those, while retaining their high dps.
What about making active defenses scale over defensive stats?
Since offensive skills already do that, after all.
That at least would make it so that people using defensive stats have to skillfully play to reap from their stat choice (obviously, some reduction of the efficency of the passive effect of the stat would have to be implemented as well to balance it).
Guess they changed vigor to reduce the active defensive capabilities that people could get, so i doubt they’ll made it stack with Adrenal Implant, be it additionally or multiplicatively.
Maybe they could make it so that Adrenal Implant gives an additional effect to the Vigor applied to us, like a damage reduction. Or something else. Basically making it still useful, even if with a different effect.
Either way, whenever it happened, it was nerfed. Before it could have passed as a bug, but since they fixed the tooltip instead, some explanation would be appreciated.
But it wouldn’t be the first time they do something shady like this, anyway (i remember they did the same to some turret fire rate).
And all those range and radius traits removed that were supposed to become baseline, i should add.
But i guess in the end they just decided to massively stealth nerf the class in the shadow of the specializations change.
It would be fine as a normal kit. Dps isn’t as good as bombs damage or condition-wise, and grenades process traits and sigils far more times. It gives some fields and a blast finisher, two when traited (but even then, you could get more blast finishers via thermobaric detonation or more damage from shrapnel and some other kits). It has more range, but the attacks aren’t either fast or large enough to hit someone, unless he’s engaged with someone else.
But it isn’t a “normal” kit – it uses up an elite skill slot. Problem is, there is nothing elite about the mortar kit.
I spent like 20 pages trying to explain mortar with a .8s attack speed and .8 coeff, is the exact same dps as 1s attack speed and 1 coeff on grenades.
They still didn’t understand this.Don’t expect them to understand a projectile speed nerf.
Well, people didn’t even understand that elite skills are usually balanced differently compared to utility skills and that something that has the same dps but processes far more traits and sigils ends up with superior dps, after all.
Nice to see a concrete reply. At least we know there is something concrete beside that “doesn’t fit with the living story”.
But i hope that by “rehauling the reward system” they don’t just mean making it work like the rest of the game. Even with the changes made in the second release, it is still the most fair reward system we’ve ever got ingame.
Get personal skins by effort, eventually get tradeable skins by being lucky, and get nice, non tradeable, not obtainable in other ways colored variants by being skillful.