I agree with this, accept for grenadier, fine as is, its definitely not a 50% improvement.
Yep. They always balanced the whole kit over the grenadier-traited version, anyway. The untraited version just had no way of being relevant in the slightest since they choose to give such a big bonus to a trait (or since they designed a grandmaster trait to give a bonus to a single kit/utility).
I wouldn’t even call it an improvement, anyway. If anything, it is a given – if it was considered the baseline for balancing purposes, it should be baseline even in practice.
Anyway, i can’t understand how people still compare the engineer with other classes. I always see comparisons about its traits and skills, but people never consider that something has to make up for the lack of the second weapon set, be it skills or traits. It is merely logical.
(edited by Manuhell.2759)
Shouts are magic so no.
Not necessarily, if they’re related with the drones we saw in the trailer.
Akin to how a ranger can command his pet via shouts, we could do the same “giving orders” via shout skills at our drones.
(also, technically speaking, an engineer could still have “shout” skills as something related to sound emission and manipulation; some device emitting ultrasounds, for example, could be categorized in that way).
Imho, they’ve got to announce a feature pack that will include the story restoration, specialization update, and something else.
Obviously it wouldn’t come out today – rather, they could spend this week talking about it, maybe even the next one.
I wouldn’t say that an HoT reveal is a given – maybe we aren’t getting one at all this time.
Instead, they may give us info about some feature pack of sort that includes the trait (specialization) system revamp and other game changes, to be released next week.
I initially also considered that they may remove toolbelt skills, but this would create a lot of problems that they would need to simultaneously solve:
1) we would lose many of our stunbreaks
2) turrets would be messed up. Without the ability to detonate them, we’d have to wait for them to be killed or despawn after 5 minutes before we would put them down again!
3) med kit would completely not work (in it’s current form, but I know it’s also being revised)
4) and finally, some utilities,which are used primarily for their toolbelt skills, would become largely unusable. E.g. Rifle Turret, maybe Portable Battering Ram, Elixir R.I don’t think any of these problems are unsolvable, but they would require a significant re-working of a lot of things in order to facilitate complete removal of our toolbelt skills.
Well, as you mentioned above, we already know they’re reworking some utilities. Maybe the rework is more extensive than we thought, and not limited to the ones we’ve seen yet. Turrets alone surely would need a redesign, anyway.
I have no idea what they could do otherwise. After they added the elite toolbelt to the base profession, we finished any utility slot toolbelts could be tied upon. Adding other slots wouldn’t make sense thematically. So, unless they do some drastic change to the mechanic itself – decoupling it from the utilities – i can’t think of ways to expand it.
Sure, they can do new utilities, and those utilities would have different toolbelt skills. But it would still be the same mechanic. And as far as we know, elite specializations change the class mechanic – that’s what the first minor trait does, after all.
I want a SAB theme WvW map…
A SAB Tribulation mode map would be glorious (especially if the hidden paths were somehow randomly generated every match).
People dying here and there, unable to reach a keep or tower. Chaos would ensure. People would burn with rage.
Devs, you already know what to do for the next April 1st.
It’s difficult to predict what they could do with the engineer specialization. They can’t just add other skills like with the chronomancer – we already use up to 5 button due to the elite toolbelt – but at the same time, they can’t even just change what those skill do – like they did with the dragonhunter – as they aren’t fixed, but tied to our utilities.
Imho, what Unhinged Carrot says won’t be completely wrong.
I think the specialization will remove our current toolbelt – based on utilities – to give us a toolbelt that somehow uses the drones we’ve seen on the trailer (sort of engineer/ranger, maybe?).
Dunno about a second weapon slot, though – it would depend on how we would end up balanced after such a change. Still, unless they somehow limit kits availability, i doubt we’ll ever have that second weapon in an elite specialization.
And dunno about the utility type either. It could be something that uses the drones we’ve seen (but i can’t think of an existing utility type that could be appropriate for them). Or something different. Guess i’ll just wait and see.
Edit: Albeit, if they follow a sort of engineer/ranger paradigm with those drones, we could indeed get Shouts as an utility type (as in we shout orders to our drones, like rangers can do with their pet).
Edit 2: It would also be coherent with what they said in the elite specializations blog post (bolded is mine):
One specialization will have access to traps, while at least one profession’s elite specialization will be a full set of six shouts.
(edited by Manuhell.2759)
Considering that i suggested a similar trait some weeks ago (https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/engineer/SUGGESTION-for-Tools-TBD-Trait/5004064 – albeit (imho) more powerful, as it was supposed to be a grandmaster in my version) i would agree with something like that.
Despite being our class mechanic, toolbelts are really lacking traits-wise. It wouldn’t be bad having some more toolbelt-centered traits.
And gadget ones, as well.
Regarding our specializations, i think we don’t have enough informations so far.
Many of our traits are still to be decided (or announced, at least). And many lack important data we would need to circumstantiate their effective power.
Basically, we know what we’re losing, but not what we’re getting.
They are balanced to fall in line with Anet’s philosophy, which seems to lean towards non-minion/summon skills are stronger than minion skills due to their inherent skill cap. If the minions are somehow just as good as slotting in another kit, what’s the point of getting that kit if an almost completely AI minion can do just as well?
Because they would do different things.
I mean, that’s how our utilities have been designed from the start. Else there would be no reason to use anything other than kits – why use a single skill when you can have five of them?
And that’s true for whatever they plan to put as new utilities. If they just did something a kit can do, there would be no competition – people would just use the kits.
(still, seeing how they managed the turrets, i would rather avoid seeing other minions – they would end up as useless as them)
(edited by Manuhell.2759)
Some parts of the suggestion aren’t bad, but the whole “starts with max charges & cooldown reduced by hp percentage” would only further exacerbate their disposable use (deploy, use the skill, destroy).
I should also add that, while they do need some more active play, having a whole bar of utility skills with cooldowns ranging from 2 to 6 seconds (8 if you use a net turret) would kinda overdo it, especially since the effects can’t even be that significant with such low cooldowns (you removed most of the CC in this redesign, and those who still have it even have to work in a different way from the other turrets (thumper uses all the charges up when attacking, net puts that debuff to do that knockdown on a second attack).
You’ve been citing your personal opinion all the time, and you even talk about the profession page on the official site as some outdated and weak source.
Mines are here, and that’s the most official source there is – cause that’s how the class was designed.
https://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/professions/engineer/
If anything, you’re the one that should stop with the personal opinions and start citing facts to demonstrate that we aren’t supposed to use turrets as turrets, but only as things to place, overcharge and pickup/blast. I’ll wait for that.
And no, reducing their survivability doesn’t comprovate your opinion on the matter.
The page of the profession on the official site is a “weak and outdated source”. Ok.
Guess this is where i’m supposed to laugh.
Devs may change balancing decisions, but they just don’t change the entire design of a group of utilities on a whim, and without being explicit with it.
Again, feel free to think and use them as overcharges with a detonation button, but don’t think that’s how we’re intended to use them, even if they’re more effective like that (due of some balancing decisions).
Sure, turrets are not turrets anymore.
I mean, seriously:
Explain me how APT is not aoe-cc
Explain me how thumper is not a double aoe-cc, tripple even when blown up after the double knockback.
cc == crowd control
aoe-cc == area of effect crowd control.
explain me how a turret with APT is not controlling his area of effect upon death?
Explain to me how something that is dead is still a turret, and how it can control anything if it isn’t there anymore.
We have a description of what they’re supposed to do right in the profession page.
https://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/professions/engineer/
Tell me where static discharge or detonating them is ever mentioned.
You’re free to use them like that, just don’t pretend that’s their intended use.
Of course it works (almost) like before the patch, no one ever used it as a turret to begin with. It was brittle before, it is even more brittle now. But who cares, heh, the only use it gets is an overcharge and pickup as soon as it is placed down, or a detonation instead of the pickup.
If you don’t want to face it, do as you wish. But we never used it as we’re supposed to, and it was never balanced over the use we’re doing.
If they ever decide to properly balance it according to the use people do of this “turret”, it will be throughly and substantially nerfed. Just don’t act surprised when that will happen. A 15s heal/area heal with 2 condition removal never made sense from a balancing standpoint.
Illusions get basically mass-produced, though – weapon skills, even the autoattack, are able to create them. And i don’t even think there is anything with a cooldown above 25s (untraited), but i may just remember wrong about it.
Still, they’re basically made for the exact purpose of shattering them, so having many of them, while brittle, is perfectly logical. Having them sturdy and with long cooldowns would just be detrimental in that regard, you’re shattering them either way, thus you would just end up with less of them.
Turrets, on the other hand, need to be sturdy enough to be used as turrets, since they can’t control an area while they’re dead (and no, SD builds that use them as an overcharge with an added double toolbelt don’t use them as turrets).
Turrets are far better and able to be traited for than any other summon. They are balanced around the fact that you only have 1 set. Nobody is forcing you to take 5 turret skills, same as nobody forces a ranger to use 5 spirit skills. Btw, spirits give the Ranger a 35% CHANCE to do some extra damage or get swiftness… Not like a turret that shoots missiles, bullets, nets or flames. Yeah, check out the Water spirit heal and compare to HT.
And why do you think turrets have mostly offensive skills in turrets, be it via autoattacks or overcharges?
Because an engineer, by default, lacks them. And something must supply them, be it a kit or something else.
But while a kit, gadget or elixir can’t die, turrets can. And do it rather quickly.
Turrets needed to be more vulnerable from the start, now, they are in line in that respect.
They needed to be vulnerable to conditions and criticals, that i agree with; but they also had to be rebalanced over the added vulnerability.
If you don’t think turrets are stronger than any other summon, organise a MM necro to summon his minions in range of your turrets, let the minions attack them. Try the same with a ranger with spirits, just get him to place them within range. Illusions too. I bet not one turret goes down.
Health of Turrets; Thumper Turret: 11950, Flame Turret: 8960, Rifle/Net/Rocket Turret: 7470, Healing Turret: 5980.
First of all, why should an opponent even stay inside the range of my turrets? Being immobile is a part of their weakness. If they can destroy them from a distance, it’s my loss either way.
And in a fight people don’t use just their summons. Any offensive power turrets may have is done for when they’re dead. And when players attack, they die rather quickly (especially when, as said above, they can be outranged without retaliation).
Sure, turrets may even win versus other summons. But no one will make’em fight like that in actual combat.
Then you get the traits; Turrets explode when killed. When your turrets explode, they push back foes. Reduces damage dealt to turrets. Turrets are self-repairing. Turrets deal more damage and have a longer attack range. Your turrets are surrounded by a reflective shield when created. Turrets apply boons to allies around them. Turret skills use ground targeting.
There are a lot of turret-related traits and their cumulative effects are sensible. Yeah, that’s the point of traits, i would say. And they’re even removing or merging a good amount of them.
Unlike now, it will be possible to take some turrets and trait and use something else as well.
But turrets as are now will be detrimental either way, so there’s no reason to do that. People would rather trait something else and take it instead.
Even giving turrets immunity to criticals and conditions was an intentional dev-decision. As well as saying that “we can take control of an area by placing turrets”. As well as the old “perma-stability while in flamethrower” Juggernaut or the old flamethrower skills. As well as the old “immunity to conditions below 25% hp” automated response.
Their “intentional dev-decisions” are changed and reversed all the time.
But putting aside that, turrets are supposed to be used as turrets (and we’re supposed to take control of an area with them, by design) and not as things we put down for a second and blast or pick up for reduced cooldowns. Cause that goes directly against what they were designed for.
They happen to be more effective while used in the latter ways? Oh, indeed. Of course they are, they just aren’t balanced over that. What makes you think that such an healing skill with a 15s cooldown (or 20s with an added blasted water field) is even remotely normal?
It’s nice to have it, but let’s not beat around the bush – we aren’t really supposed to use it as such. And i won’t be surprised at all when they’ll nerf the healing turret as a whole, raising its cooldown (and thus making its intended use even less worth the risk). Just because that’s far simpler than any other alternative (that is, dealing with the unintended use that made it so strong).
Turrets are now brought into line with other summons.
They shouldn’t be into line with other summons to begin with, if they also have to make up for the lack of a second weapon (and seeing as turret toolbelts aren’t usable while turrets are deployed, that weight has mostly to be shouldered by the turret themselves).
Anyway, i didn’t see a turret move yet. And neither i’ve seen all the other summons being immobile. So, no, saying they’re into line is blatantly false. If anything, they’re far weaker than any other summon, since they haven’t rebalanced them at all after adding some forms of damage they weren’t designed to have by design.
As a bomb kit, front line commander who plays engineer, I have to agree with this. If you placing your HT in a situation in which it takes 6k damage in the 1 second it is out, your not showing enough situational awareness.
It is just like any other heal. You cannot use it all willie nillie. You have to utilize it at the most opportune times.
Not to mention, HT is extremely strong. This is a risk versus reward value not to the very large AoE heal, water field, blast of the water field by the turret itself, AoE regen, AoE cleansing , all in one. It is reasonable that you should need to be a little more aware of what you are doing.
Funny you say this.
If we were to use it as we are supposed to, it would have to stay on the field most of the time. Receiving any such damage. And instead we’re here debating that we shouldn’t leave it in the field even for a second when the situation gets dangerous (incidentally, that’s also when we are likely to need to heal). And it wouldn’t even be that good if used properly, anyway (a cleansing burst every 15s, in that case).
And i wouldn’t even say that HT is strong. Rather, it’s kinda terrible. As a turret, it can’t stand alive even some seconds. And the effect isn’t even worth the risk.
But the alternative way we’ve found to use it? Oh, that’s indeed good, especially the synergy with the toolbelt detonation (cause it is one of the few times it actually works to our advantage; even if just picking it up after the overcharge can be as much as beneficial).
But ultimately, it is just that – we aren’t intended to use it like that. Expecting them to balance the healing turret over a side-effect makes no sense. Rather, they’re far more likely to remove the alternative use, or dampen it greatly. And then we’re left with the weak healing turret we’re actually supposed to use.
While other heals aren’t great, healing turret IS easily the best heal in the game. It his higher HP/S than healing signet, while being a burst heal (so its good against both sustained and burst damage). It gives you 2 condis cleared, which is better than most other heals (although many argue necessary for engie). It also gives you a HUGE water field and integrated blast, making it not only the best self-heal of the engie, but also the best support heal. All other “support” heals other classes have (like well of blood, healing breeze, arcane heal, etc.) have much less self-healing.
Also, it has a teeny-tiny cast time and is nearly impossible to interrupt, unlike consume conditions, troll unguent, or ether feast.
See, this is where things get fun.
Healing turret can be strong, sure…but only as long as you don’t use it as a turret.
Using it as a proper turret would be too risky. Since the overcharge and cooldown after pickup conveniently have the same duration, there is just no reason to leave it down. The minor benefit given by the normal regen “autoattack” isn’t worth the risk of seeing the turret destroyed. And this one was always being easily destroyed when placed down, due of its low amount of health points, even for a turret.
In other words, not being sturdy enough is what caused people to use it in alternative ways. Be it by picking it up or by comboing with the toolbelt (calling it “integrated” isn’t exactly correct, as we use the toolbelt to do that – our class mechanic – and destroying the turret is a detrimental action, in theory… that is, if we weren’t already sure it would die anyway if left on the field.
Still, i don’t think it is correct to compare the engineer’s utilities to other classes’ ones. The engineer is focused on its utilities, due of the lack of the second weapon. Something has to be better than the norm to make up for it – be it the mechanic, utilities, or a mix of both. Else the engineer would end up underpowered (same in everything, but lacking a second weapon).
But even if we wanted to compare those healing skills, the turret has to be balanced over its drawback of being destructible…even if it isn’t used in a way that usually permits to do so.
Funnily enough, people now advocate using the other turrets in exactly the same way.
Because once they can be easily destroyed, they’re more effective by being used in such a way than as being used as turrets. Cause using them as glassy turrets pose too much risks for the rewards.
So, pick your poison. Either turrets are enough sturdy to be used as proper turrets, or they get used in alternative ways to reduce the risks that make their proper use unfeasible, while retaining the rewards for the potential risks (since they’re still there).
Either Paragon or Seraph/Seraphim*, i would say.
*due of the multiple pairs of wings
Do you have a link to that quote? Or are you simply inserting your “opinion” of what you want it to be and implying it is official in some capacity?
https://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/professions/engineer/
I would say that’s official.
It surely fixed the “overly rewarding” part of the issue.
But you’re right, a more in-depth rework would have been miles better, still the nerf fulfilled its intended purpose.
It didn’t fix that either, strictly speaking.
For that duration of time they’re alive, they’re exactly as “overly rewarding and passive” as before.
They made that timeframe much shorter than before, and that’s it. The design issue is still there. Sure, that reduced timeframe made using them as turrets useless. But it didn’t solve anything about their passiveness, it just swept the problem under a rug.
If their purpose was to hide the issue, they indeed fulfilled it. But that’s all.
Sure, then lets fill in my part:
The build was cancer because it promoted a overly-rewarding, passive play-style in an action-driven combat system, therefore giving new players a false impression of the class (and combat system in general) and causing all kinds of toxicity ingame towards engineers, regardless what builds they were actually running.
The recent nerf to turrets is a “cure” to this “cancer” in my book.
And the nerf did nothing to address the “overly-rewarding, passive play-style in an action-driven combat system”.
Redesigning them to be more active would have done it.
This change make them paper-mache. It didn’t cure anything. It just made them useless in their proper use, but for those 6 seconds they’re alive, they’re exactly as “overly-rewarding and passive” as before.
I can understand that people were fed up with turret builds, but defending this change as something well done is nonsensical. It was no cure, they just amputated a part. And they’re probably done with it.
Turrets are fine. Some people are over reacting by demanding they are underpowered simply because they were previously overpowered.
An engineer is supposed to “take control of an area by placing turrets”.
They get destroyed in seconds when doing so.
No, there is nothing fine with that.
I wouldn’t say they were overpowered either. Our utilties already have to make up for the lack of a second main weapon. And turrets in particular, while placed, even prevents the use of a part of the class mechanic (toolbelt).
Either they were effective at whatever they had to do – in this case, take control of an area – or they were worthless.
Now they’re worthless. They basically get used due to how some trait works or some balancing loophole, rather than for what they were supposed to do – be turrets.
If they still want to adhere to their original intent, some degree of sturdiness is required. You can’t control an area with turrets if they die in few seconds.
Something to make them more active once they’re placed should also be done, though, by giving far less importance to autoattacks and more to the overcharges (albeit, if it were for me, i would redesign overcharges as well).
It is perfectly reasonable that investment in condition damage and precision effect them now instead of being completely ignored.
Sure, that’s right. What isn’t reasonable is to change their defensive design and not rebalance them thereafter.
Cause we aren’t talking about some bug – they were designed and balanced taking those immunities for granted.
It was obvious they would end up paper mache with such a change.
It would be like taking banners, making them destructible “to make them in line” and don’t give them even an hp value. And then they die (cause their hp are supposedly zero). And our change is exactly as nonsensical.
As something that is supposed to “take control of an area”, yeah, they’ve been completely destroyed. They die in few seconds, let alone take control of anything.
May have other uses, but their original one is done for.
This I’m not so sure about this.
There’s scenarios where extra velocity and larger radius are not actually helpful. PvE is probably the best example of this, but one would theoretically not need the enhanced velocity and radius if they do not have any issue consistently hitting their targets with the current velocity and radius.
Well, the increased radius would also give more consistent multiple hits in ranged situations, raising the overall damage and proccings of shrapnel (if taken).
Sure, in melee range there is no difference, and most of the current PvE is like that. But HoT may present us with different gameplay situations.
The only reason grenadier is so necessary in the current implementation is because it results in a 50% damage/effectiveness boost, which is insanely good. The range bonus is a bit of a fallacy because grenades are often used at a much shorter range, often even at point-blank. It’s not that the range wasn’t useful, but it was the more minor benefit of the trait.
A 50% bonus is indeed insanely good…and even too much, since they ended up balancing the whole kit upon it.
Still, while grenades are usually used at a fraction of their full range, they still were the only 1500 range weapon we had. So, if we really wanted that range, it was either that or nothing. I wouldn’t call that a minor benefit.
With the new system, traited grenades will be objectively more powerful. However, whether or not that extra power is really useful in the scenarios you’d be using them is a completely different matter.
In addition, since incendiary powder and grenadier won’t be on the same trait line anymore, it’s quite possible some people might elect to not take the grenadier trait if they’d rather use incendiary powder. Though it’ll really depend on what sort of other options are available.
I can’t see why one should take grenades and not trait them in explosives.
Ok, let alone grenadier. Let’s take the explosive rocket belt. But there is steel-packed powder to do vulnerability, a master trait that raises damage to targets with vulnerability, explosive powders that further raise damage by 10% and shrapnel as grandmaster as another additional source of damage.
Do we have any reason to really take the kit and not trait it?
Especially if it ends up like with the old grenadier – where the kit was actually balanced upon the traits.
If nothing else, untraited grenades will be much more relevant to general gameplay than they currently are.
Eh, dunno. I can’t share the optimism. I see it more as an “either you trait it, or you trait something else (mortar and/or bomb, judging from the explosive traits) and take it”.
Well, our other heals are quite terrible to start with, though. They may be traited, but traits can’t do miracles.
We know they’re working on med kit, let’s hope they’re improving the others as well. And then we can see about healing turret.
Since we’re talking about micromanagement, i would like to point out my idea for a micromanagement-based turret design.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/engineer/Suggestion-A-turret-design-change
It works on a per utility basis, and only for turrets (every turret has a separate pool, it if wasn’t clear enough).
It isn’t supposed to be a class mechanic – it is just how some utilities would work.
A class mechanic would require the whole class to be based upon it. This doesn’t.
You use a turret, you’ve got to care about his energy. You use four, you care about four energy pools. And it isn’t much different from taking notes of cooldowns in that regard. Especially on a class that, with kits, can have more than 20 separate cooldowns to take care of.
And having charges is the only thing they share, anyway, since for the rest they just work in a completely different way.
Something that you would have noticed if you had read the whole suggestion.
But frankly speaking, it seems like you’re discrediting any other turret suggestion just to push yours. Since you did the same to the MiniEquine thread.
I can understand you may like yours more, but this attitude is nonetheless annoying.
I don’t like yours either, but i don’t go there with hyperbolic statements about “the total destruction of turrets”.
(edited by Manuhell.2759)
If turrets was a class mechanic, sure. Make it more complicated. But it isn’t.
It is a utility skill.
I can’t see the issue. Who said utilities always have to be straight and simple?
Other classes already have utilities with charges – elementalists’ summoned weapons.
This is just a sort of AI minion with charges attached, whose abilities deplete charges, whose defensive abilities depend on charges, and with charges that replenish with time. A charge based minion, basically.
On a class that hasn’t even to bother with a second weapon, at least by default, and that alone make us simpler than other classes.
So if we want to add some complexity, we’ll have to depend on utilities.
Be it kits, or other things.
About slick shoes, i’ll copypaste what i said in another thread some days ago.
Assuming those poodles weren’t made so incospicuous on purpose, giving them some decent tell would help.
Making it ineffective while standing still would be the laziest counter ever seen, though – one could avoid that by literally doing nothing.
Thus i would rather propose to add another layer of complexity to the skill.
Alas, giving the engineer some interactions with the oil via the use of some fire-based skills.
By using one of the aforemented fire-based skills (blowtorch or flame jet, for example) the oil would be ignited, prompting some animation on the poodles (it could have a duration of half or three quarters of a second). It is important to point out that crossing them at this point is safe; it will cause no knockdown, as the oil just started to burn, and will cause no damage either;
After that time, though, the oil will burn and cause damage and/or burning (either for some little time, or in a single blow; imho, the latter solution is the better one, else it would just clutter the terrain with little aoes).
By doing something similar, there would be quite some positive effects on gameplay.
First, there is counterplay for the oil slicks- standing still – albeit quite an easy one; but there is also counter-counterplay on the engineer part that can burn the area and force the opponent to either react properly or take damage.
Obviously, this also means that the engineer can’t just spam skills at random. If he wants to ignite the oil later, he will need some skills that can do so; likewise, if he wants to knock down an enemy, using a fire skill at the wrong time would foil his plan.
Also, it would be doable in a gadget build as well, via rocket boots or rocket kick; thus adding some value to an underused build.
Who said they can’t be a bit complicated?
They’re an utility skill, right. But our class is basically focused on utilities.
It isn’t like kits are much different in that regard. If we can play while taking care of multiple cooldowns from multiple kits, then having a single value for utility to consider will be relatively better.
After all, until now, turrets have been even far too simple. Put them down, toolbelt is essentially disabled, you can use only an overcharge every now and then.
That made using multiple turrets very limiting on our part. Sure, enemies may have died, but that was mostly because of sustained pressure from autoattacks, rather than our active plays. Cause our active play consisted as most of chaning few weapon skills and some overcharges – and such a limited selection made for predictable plays.
I’m not pretending that my suggestion is perfect. But as far as them being turrets, i can’t think of anything better.
I’ve read your suggestion. Those are all but turrets. Like you said yourself in that thread, they’re more like spells/skills, phantasm-like. What’s the point, then? We’re just giving up on the whole concept of turret if we do some change like that.
Also, they end up being far too similar to gadgets in my opinion. Heh, we could just have the overcharge directly as a skill and it wouldn’t change almost anything as far as gameplay goes (it isn’t like the turret actually does something, after all, beside being eventually detonated).
You wrote about it as a better suggestion. But frankly, i can’t agree – those aren’t even turrets, after all.
(edited by Manuhell.2759)
Because i hadn’t thought about those traits at all. Albeit, it makes sense for them to work.
I’ll add it, albeit in a more general form.
By giving multiple overcharge tiers and tying them with the defensive capabilities of the turrets, mindless plays are discouraged. Using a third tier overcharge without a clear plan behind that can easily make your turret destroyed. Having the possibility of using different combinations of overcharges would also make a full turret build less predictable (one could go for a defensive playstyle and just going for tier 1 attacks – but it would have no hard CC, unlike now) or trying to chain two tier 2 overcharges in short succession, if that’s what he thinks best for that situation (again, leaving the turret depleted if he fails). A turret player finally has the instruments to play smart.
And players are incentivized to leave turrets on the floor, as proper turrets. Especially since you can’t just put them down,overcharge and pick up/detonate them as before – they would have just enough energy for the first tier.
Let’s also talk about other changes, still related to turrets.
The tool kit would also change a bit. In exchange for a lower turret healing capability, hitting the turrets would give them energy. Magnet could also be used to recharge some energy from a distance.
An engineer using the tool kit would use less turrets – of course – but by carefully working with them (also known as mauling them with a wrench) he’s able to use stronger overcharges with a major frequency (or leave them less exposed to danger if needed).
Detonation’s effects may also change according to energy (so that detonating a turret just placed is disincentivized, and doing it after a failed 3rd tier overcharge wouldn’t be rewarding either)
Traits would also change in some ways. Some are already getting removed with the core specialization overhaul.
I would propose to remove experimental turrets and put back autotool installation, albeit working in a more active way. On a overcharge, heal the turret depending on the turret’s current energy.
Likewise, the fortified turrets + metal plating one could change as well. Instead of giving toughness, it would just raise their max hp. Fortified turrets would work on overcharge too, giving effects based on the tier of the overcharge used (purely for example – first tier: 2s protection and 2 second resistance, shield that blocks projectiles for 2s; second tier: 3s protection and 3s resistance, shield that blocks projectiles for 3s; third tier: 4s protection and 4s resistance, shield that reflects projectiles for 3s).
Rifled turret barrels is getting removed as well; but i would rather give the 1500 range as a default to a turret at least, be it rocket or rifle, so that there are also turrets that can’t just be outranged (apart from bugs).
Edit: As Aowys points out, turret detonation, being an explosion and blast finisher (assuming it remains the same as now, at least) should be affected by explosions and blast finisher related traits.
Edit 2: i did forget about the pick-up. Imho, picking it up could reduce the cooldown by half. Turrets’ energy system already requires them to stand in a point for some time, so it would be balanced by the time they would spend to charge up again in their new position.
I shouldn’t have forgot anything. If i have, i’ll add it later. Discuss.
(edited by Manuhell.2759)
I’ve got some idea for turrets, so i’ll explain them here. Many of those were already explained in my previous posts, but i’m adding some more here.
In short, i want to give active play and micromanagement to turrets, while punishing mindless spamming. Here is how.
First of all, every turret is tied with a resource (displayed as a boon, so that even enemies can see it). Said resource is called Energy. If UI changes can be done, it could also be displayed in a little panel above every turret skill button, so that we can have a clear understanding of the situation when needed.
Energy will be gained automatically – one stack every X seconds (i was thinking about 1 energy per 2 seconds). It maxes out at 25 energy. Turrets would start with barely enough energy to be in the second tier.
Turrets will be able to be critted and will receive conditions, as it happens now. However, their hp will be increased and can receive boons.
But their toughness and the condition damage they receive (if technically feasible, i assume it can be done, though) will change depending on how much energy they have (for simplicity’s sake i was thinking about 3 tiers, with visual changes on the turrets to give a clear tell of their tiers even when they aren’t directly targeted).
For this example i was thinking about 0-10 energy, 10-20 energy and over 20 energy.
Lower the tier the glassier they get, making them easier to destroy. The middle tier is intended as the default one (so normal turret toughness and condition damage).
Let’s get to the offensive department.
There are autoattacks, like now. However, they’re terrible. Like, really terrible. Something like a third of their current damage or a weaker effect (net turret would just cripple, for example). They’re there just to be a minor annoyance, like flies.
And there are still overcharges. But they work differently from before. For starters, they would interrupt the normal attack cycle of the turret, unlike now.
Overcharges consume energy to be used, and have different tiers (as in a chain attack).
Higher tiers consume higher values of energy (and by lowering the energy, the turret’s defense lowers as well). Due of the energy costs, their cooldowns may be lowered and standardized (like 5s or 10s). Using an overcharge prompts an animation on the turret, and a clear tell (something like a laser scope from the turret to the opponent, a green one). Pressing the overcharge during this time would take it to the second tier and reset the animation (laser changes to yellow) and once again, to the third and last overcharge tier (another animation reset, laser changes to the red laser of death). When the laser goes off, the skill is ready to go as well. In doing so, we are certain that there will be some time for the enemy to counterplay, but the engineer can trick the enemy as well (an enemy could blind as early as the green laser, but then the engineer could just leave it at that and conserve the energy for later).
The 1st overcharge tier would just be a (relatively) stronger autoattack. Most of the damage we’ve removed from the autoattacks would end up here. They wouldn’t deal hard CC, but soft at most (net turret could immobilize and/or cripple, for example).
Its cost would be relatively low – maybe 7 or 8 energy. A fully energized turret would fall in the second tier for some seconds.
The second overcharge tier would be mostly equal to the current overcharge. Energy costs could vary between 10 to 14. A turret with maxed energy would be left in the second tier for a sensible amount of time.
The third and last overcharge tier would consume almost all the energy – something around the 22 to 25 range. The strong effects they provide come with a sensible drawback – the turret will need quite some time to recover, and until then it can be easily destroyed.
No, i would just like to not have something that is designed to be terrible in every part of the game.
And yes, something that is supposedly designed “for low tier play” (in this case “versus someone that doesn’t even know what turrets are”, cause anyone else would just kill them on sight after the nerf) is just a terrible set of utilities to me.
There was already a discussion on that mindset back in the thread.
Imho, having terrible utilities for the sake of terrible players is just detrimental for the game. I would rather have good utilities for good players, so that once you’re good you aren’t limited to a subset of utilities.
You brought this argument upon yourself – they shouldn’t have been compared to turrets to start with.
I mean, illusions can be even created by an autoattack chain (http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ether_Clone), let alone proper weapon skills and utilities (and you get two weapon sets to do that, anyway).
Even the utility phantasms have cooldowns as long as 25s. That’s half of the cooldown of a rocket turret.
Illusions get basically mass-produced.
Turrets cannot.
And that’s all.
I can’t agree with that optimistic view on grenades.
Sure, now the third grenade is baseline. But as far as balancing goes, we were already balanced upon the traited kit – so it isn’t like we’re getting a buff, they just normalized the situation.
Add to that the poison grenade nerf and the range one, and it doesn’t end up that well.
I understand that they needed to find a way to make mortar more important, but still, that’s harsh.
Sure, the new grenadier trait, by making radius bigger and their travel time faster, may improve our accuracy on mid-range (cause that’s all there is, now). And the improved shrapnel can raise damage and keep enemies far. Also, we still have the good old vulnerability.
But on the other hand, we risk being exactly in the same situation as before – either you fully trait it, or it isn’t worth to take at all.
Guess we’ll have to wait for further informations (especially about the mortar).
Step back and look at what you are all arguing for: Essentially you want turret engi’s to be an easy faceroll class. Made evident by statements like this:
cut
Those are all you had as your own personal abilities with turret builds before the nerf. Most of your damage and attacks came from turrets. A turrent engi would just sit amongst thier turrets and let them do most of the work.
No, i just said that it can’t be otherwise with the current design.
Thus the solution can’t be achieved by some balancing measure – they have to change the design. And that’s what they should have done to start with.
(for example, something like this post of mine, albeit a copypaste of an older suggestion i made: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/engineer/Why-do-people-play-turrets-Brainstorm/4990598)
Yes, I do. Very few points have more than 2 access points, and they all have places where you can place that thumper turret by an access point where it is out of LOS, but will still effect an enemy that is approaching. Like I said, you have to tactically place your turrets. And yes, good turret engineers were already doing this, and they wont feel the nerf nearly as badly. bad turret engineers however, could and did just place all their turrets on point, and were still almost as effective as the "good’ turret engineers. Those bad turret engineers are the ones who will feel this nerf the most.
Why should he even stay there at your “access point”? He’ll go for the point, no use spending time at that “access point” if there is no reason to, all the more if you even put a melee turret here (thus moving from there also solves his problem). Sure, you may stall for some seconds, but even with the couple CC you can provide, he’ll just pass over (especially if the other turrets haven’t been placed, thus no CC from them as well). You’ll have to pick it up, wait for the cooldown and reposition it. Not as bad as having it destroyed, but a bad strategy overall.
And that is why all of our weapons have some form of CC for survival while you wait for your turret to come off cooldown. Like I have said: you have to play smart, know all of your abilities and when to use them. If all your turrets are dead, you move off point, CC your enemy and use your terrain to get out of LOS, this is a tactic all non-turret engi’s are very aware of and experienced doing. Non-turret engi’s have never been a “fight on point” class. Now turret engi’s have to play similarly.
Yeah, just try stalling for 20s (and i’m being generous here, cause thumper and rocket have a 50s cooldown) with a single launch and a 2s immobilize every 10s. It will work so well, heh.
Having few skills also means that dodging them is all the more important, and their use is also more predictable.
Non-turret engi usually have kits. That means a lot more skills to work with (and guess won’t, they can’t even be destroyed).
They can be used as turrets, in the manner that I have just described: You place them around tactically, forcing your enemy to either run around killing your turrets while eating your damage, or eat the damage from your turrets while focusing on you. Yes, ranged is difficult to contend with as a turret engi, but it has always been difficult to deal with as a turret engi and frankly that’s fine. Every class/build should have another class/build that is it’s hard counter. Turret engi’s have always been very hard for melee builds to deal with, and fairly easy for ranged builds to deal with, and that dynamic hasn’t changed if you play your turret intelligently.
The “manner you have described” is to put a melee turret – that, i should remind, can’t move – in a spot where the opponent has no reason to stay. And since he can just pass over it to achieve his result – get to the point and not being hit by that turret anymore – he’ll just do that. He has no reason at all to bother with it.
There is nothing intelligent in such an action. You’ve just wasted a turret with a 50s cooldown (less if you pick it up, but still…). Why do you think thumper turrets have higher hp than other ones? They’re supposed to stay on the point you want them to protect…since they’re melee turrets (and since they’re there they’ll get mauled, and die if they aren’t sturdy enough). And that’s the same for any other close range turret.
I mean, that’s even in our profession page – they can take control of an area by placing turrets. You control an area where the opponent will have to be in, not one he’ll just pass over.
You play smart by not putting all your turrets on the same spot, but rather spread them around the point you are defending so the person you are fighting has to run around killing your turrets or eat their damage.
Cause people didn’t do that already, right?
Also, never heard of arcane concepts like “range”. Where do you expect one to put a thumper turret, outside a point? Close range turrets have to be relatively near the point, can’t be otherwise.
The fact that you are asking how you can not expect them to be destroyed shows how broken they were. The fact that engi’s used to expect their turrets to be up for the majority of a fight, despite placing them all on top of each other, shows how broken they were. So yes, you can now fully expect your turrets to die in a fight. But, so long as you don’t put them all on top of each other, or close enough to all be aoe’d at the same time, your opponent has to waste time running around DPSing your turrets instead of DPSing you.
Broken because they’re supposed to stay alive to do what they’re supposed for, hah.
If it wasn’t clear – the engineer depends on his utilities, since he lacks that second weapon. Whatever they are, be it kits or whatever.
And once those turrets are gone, the engineer has a single weapon, some toolbelts and an elite at most. Not two weapons like most classes. And that makes a lot of difference.
Turret builds were a pretty brain dead way to play an engi before, now they require thought and tactics like other builds.
I agree that they were quite braindead. But saying they now require “thought and tactics” is just idiotic. They can’t be used as turrets, because they just die too fast and an AI minion that is on cooldown almost all the time is useless, and that’s all.
Saying they should “play smart” to overcome the nerf is simply idiotic, if not downright trolling.
The only way to not see them destroyed is either not using them at all or detonating them yourself. And relying on a single weapon and some toolbelt while they are on cooldown (that is, a large majority of the time).
I’ll copypaste what i’ve written in another thread (there was also a suggestion for a change in their design there, but we aren’t discussing of that here).
Tell me, what did this nerf accomplish in that regard? It only made them far, far easier to destroy. Even assuming one picks’em up before they die, how do you expect one to “play smart” with a total of 10 skills (including autoattack, healing skill, other utility overcharges and/or toolbelt – since you can’t have both at the same time – and the elite)? There are just not enough instruments to work with. It even ends up being really predictable, since there aren’t many ways you can chain attacks. Let alone that it ends up on relying on the autoattack for most of the time.
Get any other class (beside thieves, that would be cheating in the context of this example) and try playing with a single weapon (or attunement) and just their utilities. Tell me how much they can “play smart”, how much they’re effective.
They won’t.
As far as their current design go, using turrets as proper turrets requires them to be tanky enough to deal damage to the opponent and fire some overcharge every now and then; because it has to offset the lack of offensive capabilities engineers get by default.
Is it terribly passive and “braindead”? Sure, and it is also extremely boring. But with the current design, it is either that or nothing.
Did they do anything to change such a design? No, absolutely nothing.
And unless they start doing something in that regard, they’ll just continue to be useless, as far as being a turret goes.
Turret Engi wasn’t OP, it was just too effective for a build which takes no skill to use. Nerf is great, if Engis wanna turret they’ll have to play smarter.
Oh, this again.
Tell me, what did this nerf accomplish in that regard? It only made them far, far easier to destroy. Even assuming one picks’em up before they die, how do you expect one to “play smart” with a total of 10 skills (including autoattack, healing skill, other utility overcharges and/or toolbelt – since you can’t have both at the same time – and the elite)? There are just not enough instruments to work with. It even ends up being really predictable, since there aren’t many ways you can chain attacks. Let alone that it ends up on relying on the autoattack for most of the time.
Get any other class (beside thieves, that would be cheating in the context of this example) and try playing with a single weapon (or attunement) and just their utilities. Tell me how much they can “play smart”, how much they’re effective.
They won’t.
As far as their current design go, using turrets as proper turrets requires them to be tanky enough to deal damage to the opponent and fire some overcharge every now and then; because it has to offset the lack of offensive capabilities engineers get by default.
Is it terribly passive and “braindead”? Sure, and it is also extremely boring. But with the current design, it is either that or nothing.
Did they do anything to change such a design? No, absolutely nothing.
And unless they start doing something in that regard, they’ll just continue to be useless, as far as being a turret goes.
I’ll just copy a suggestion i made some time ago. At least it is an example with some micromanagement and complexity involved.
Anyway, if they can fix the “braindead” AI, that’s good. Turrets could use a more active playstyle – i just don’t think these suggestions can give them one. Making them paper mache isn’t a solution, unless they plan on redesigning them completely; and neither would make them inherently more active.
The problem is about how you can have a full turret build, with a single main weapon, and still have active plays while the turrets are down, assuming that they won’t change some fundamental designs about them (like being immobile, relatively sturdy, and have their cooldown start after their death). Also, they would still have to work with the limitations of the command inputs – as now, we have at most two buttons per turret, one of which is used to destroy them.
The only way i can see, with these premises, would be to rework the overcharge system, along with shifting some power from the turret autoattacks to overcharges (not too much, though, else they become too bursty). Maybe multiple tiers of overcharges? Overcharges would work akin to chain skills as far as inputs go, assuming you’ve got the energy costs to pay for them, and there would be clear tells to understand what overcharge tier is being shot right now (albeit, unlike actual chain skills, it would only use one overcharge at a time). Tier 1 would just be a stronger autoattack with a relatively short cooldown, whereas tier 2 would be the current overcharge. In doing so, the autoattacks’ importance would be diminished, whereas the relevant attacks become more clear (and thus are more avoidable if ones wishes so).
If we want to do things more complex, turrets could have some kind of energy system. Like, they start with X energy when they’re put down, enough for a tier 2 overcharge. Turrets gain Y energy every Z seconds, and overcharges have different energy costs based on the tiers but also have lower cooldowns, thus leaving more micromanagement to the player’s hand. In doing so, there may even be a tier 3 overcharge with high energy costs, so that it needs some build-up time before it can be used after the turret has been put down (like, at least 15s, for example).
Turrets’ energy could then be displayed above each turret’s icon on the skill bar, as a sort-of boon when clicking on turrets, or may even be displayed as graphical changes on the turrets themselves (they could shift to a different model once they have enough energy to use an higher tier of overcharges).
(edited by Manuhell.2759)
If they leave it as a turret, it would just end up dead in less than 10s. Like any other turret.
That’s the issue with it. Once he’s dead, it can’t do nothing.
And considering the range of the mortar, it isn’t difficult at all to kill it.
Making it a kit is the best choice they can have about it.
At least it will be useable. And it won’t be killed by some squirrel that just happened to run into it.
It never had any use as it was, anyway.
#mortarkit
People should stop comparing turrets to other minions to start with. Engineers are different from other classes on a fundamental level.
Having a single weapon set puts a lot more strain on the importance of utilities.
A turret build can’t even have more than 10 skills available at a time – and that’s counting autoattack, healing and the elite skill. Toolbelts destroy the related turret, so either you use one or the other.
If those utilities get destroyed easily, all the engineer can do is relying on some toolbelt and the main weapon. Having few skills means those will be in cooldown quite often, leaving the engineer with the autoattack most of the time.
Take any class, leave the second weapon set out, ignore your class mechanic and use just the main weapon and the utilities. Then tell me how effective you can be. People seriously understate how limitating having few skills can be.
It says enough that the “efficient and much better way” to use a turret is by not using it as a turret…
Sure it is quit reasonable as I see it.
you appear to confuse your subjective opinion with that of objective fact. I for one, thought it was the right move.
I agree that they should have added health in turn. But the change was the right one in my opinion.
If you’re talking about the first part of my post, then i merely stated facts. They can’t have been balanced for something they were never designed to be hit for to start with.
If you’re talking about the latter part, then we just have different opinions on the matter. As now, i can’t see turrets working as turrets. They can be nice things that do some effect and detonate after that, but they are terrible at being turrets – because used as turrets, they just die far too quickly and even if they stay alive for a bit, all their gameplay is using an overcharge every now and then. No interaction, no complexity, just something extremely boring in my opinion.