sad stories tell that every enemy with half a brain will avoid this move by simply moving on his side.
I can’t understand people nowdays, really.
agree about venoms.
Agree about the glass cannon stuff ( i’ve tried many thief builds not revolving around damage, like soldier amulet- perma daze S/D, simply to find that i would obtain more results by simply going with berserker amulet), we’re innately designed to deal damage.
Only that.Agree about thief overall design. The class is a big gimmick, that really should be redisigned from the start ( don’t worry, it will happen now or then). But people love gimmicky stuff, and that’s why you get people answiring stuff like " i love my thief, you have no clue" and bla bla bla.
Just play something different, the thief will meet better times in the future.
ive4 played multiple classes in this game, if you think thieves are gimmicky other classes are gonna make you cry
what should be gimmicky ?
enge swapping multiple kits in order to do damage ?
ele swapping attunements to adapt to a situation ?
necro going in and out from DS to avoid damage, to CC you and destroying you with conditions and AoEs ?
mesmers ( altough OP ) countering and avoiding while timing their illusions ?
guardians chaining through their skills in order to be unbeatable ?
As things stand now, the only gimmicky things in this game are ranger’s shortbow, 100 blades AND THE WHOLE thief profession.
And this comes from a guy with thief as a main, with the thief being his favourite profession.
The fanboysm around this archetype is getting old and ridicolous, really.
same problem here
agree about venoms.
Agree about the glass cannon stuff ( i’ve tried many thief builds not revolving around damage, like soldier amulet- perma daze S/D, simply to find that i would obtain more results by simply going with berserker amulet), we’re innately designed to deal damage.
Only that.
Agree about thief overall design. The class is a big gimmick, that really should be redisigned from the start ( don’t worry, it will happen now or then). But people love gimmicky stuff, and that’s why you get people answiring stuff like " i love my thief, you have no clue" and bla bla bla.
Just play something different, the thief will meet better times in the future.
in PvP i prefer to spam the auto-attack instead of using flanking strike.
It’s horrible how much more effort you need to put into good and difficult builds like S/D or D/P when you could simply make a bleed thief or a S/P pistol whip spammer and own anything.
steal is not good as it is.
steal doesn’t have a steep learning curve ( if you really believe this, this game is probably not for you).
steal is a "do everything " gimmick ( when traited) or a “free OP ability” ( when untraited).
Absolutely terrible.
stealth issues :
Channeling attacks still hit you after you stealth.
Bouncing attacks still attacking you even when you’re stealthed.
100% cri trait not being 100 %.
Minions/pets/illusions not caring about line of sight after you stealth ( aka: target doesn’t break for them)
Delay after stealthing, making you still hittable by attacks ( instead of going after you, like every attack with no target should do).
Auto-attacking not being stopped when you steal ang go into stealth with the trait hidden thief.
Those things ( aside the trait thing) are kittening the thief ridicolously, and also the mesmer to a certain degree.
Stealing makes me invisible for a few seconds, gives me back 5 initiative and shadowsteps me to the enemy.
That’s awesome!
EDIT:
The dmg it does and the things you steal and is just a bonus.
Sigh…
The point is that Steal should be used ( or at least, this was what aNet was intending) for the mechanic, not for the “all the crap you can add via traits”.
A decent trait investment on Steal and it becomes very powerful ( altough gimmicky, and personally i hate gimmicks), but that’s not why Steal was created.
Currently, with no trait investment, Steal is absolutely irrilevant for a thief : it’s just an OP skill every 45 secs.
An OP skill is not a mechanic, it’s just an OP skill.
With decent/heavy trait investment, steal becomes incredibly good , an extremely powerful gimmick, but still not a part of thief playstyle ( unless you pick the hidden thief trait, making it VERY relevant for your playstyle, but there are overall better choices to pick instead of that trait): it’s just a gimmick, or rather a “do everything” skill.
I’m not discussing Steal usefulness, i’m discussing its DESIGN.
Other classes have their mechanics highly incorporated within their playstyle ( i would never think of a mesmer not summoning its illusions, or a necro not entering death shroud, or an ele not swapping attunements), while this is not also valid for the thief;
If you’re not using Steal , you’re not losing anything if not an OP skill.
And there are builds which effectively can be played without using Steal at all ( or at least, not for the mechanic but only for the damage/utility you obtain via traiting), and this shows clearly how badly designed Steal is.
(edited by Mrbig.8019)
STEAL.
Seriously, you’re a Thief, the skill is made for you. I feel like a dufus for taking so long to realize its utility. Once you start doing it regularly you’ll have so much fun stealing you’ll look forward to it in every fight; you’ll alter your build around your steal, or vice versa; and you’ll wonder what you were doing before you discovered it.
It seems you’re a thief only every 45 secs.
The rest of your time, you’re an assassin.
In real life, stealing something every 45 seconds means you’re totally a thief! A compulsive thief! That’s a steal a minute. If I play for 4 hours, I could steal 180 things!!!! I’m the best thief in the world at even half that rate. Get right out of town.
And how many ‘thief’ classes in MMOs actually ‘steal’ stuff without killing stuff? Come on, admit you’re just a hater.
oh yeah, go tell this to a necro using his mechanic every 10 secs.
Or to a war, using his mechanic every 10 secs.
Or to a guardoam, having 3 abilities every 30-60-90 secs that awards passive bonuses if you don’t actively use them
Or to a ranger, having a permanent companion to manage, while having the chance to activate one of his abilities ( that are all on shorter CDs than steal)
or to an engeneer/ele, having a so difficult mechanic in swapping sets/attunement + 4 toolbelt skills.
Or to a mesmer, that, altough bugged and clunky , has 4 F skill + illusion summoning.
Yeah, stealing every 45 secs definitively makes you a thief.
/sarcasm
in WoW, with my rogue, i could steal ( lol) every time i went in stealth. Surely more often than GW2 THIEF ( not rogue, THIEF).
Just say you have no clue about other classes.
STEAL.
Seriously, you’re a Thief, the skill is made for you. I feel like a dufus for taking so long to realize its utility. Once you start doing it regularly you’ll have so much fun stealing you’ll look forward to it in every fight; you’ll alter your build around your steal, or vice versa; and you’ll wonder what you were doing before you discovered it.
It seems you’re a thief only every 45 secs.
The rest of your time, you’re an assassin.
Some attacks already ‘hit’ before you see them hit. Just dodge right after going stealth. Come on.
Why should i waste a dodge ?
those are bugs and need to be fixed, it doesn’t matter if you can overcome them one way or another: they shouldn’t even exist.
Run.
You can’t kill the mesmer unless you instagib him. Instagib builds are not viable in tPvP.
So you actually can’t.
Steal is the difference between pretty good theives and great theives.
quoted for righteous truth.
i’m astonished to see people saying they don’t use Steal. its easily one of the most powerful abilities ANY class has access to. the stolen abilities it provides are INCREDIBLY POWERFUL. maybe people don’t get this because its semi-random what you actually steal. all of the abilities that you get from stealing are really really really strong though.
the trait bonuses to Steal are equally insane. every single trait build adds at least a couple of powerful bonuses here, and some builds add several.
saying that you don’t use this ability is like saying “i don’t understand how to play this game and i’m confused so i’m nerfing myself because this is too hard for me”
the fact that stolen items are OP and that Steal needs to be traited heavily have absolutely nothing to do with people disliking it.
/sarcasm
Stealth is nerfed down as is, with the “Reveal” mechanic coming out of stealth and then tack on abilities that are locked on to you regardless of going into stealth.
So I wholeheartedly agree. I don’t know if it’s something that ANet can fix or if it’s built into the engine and making targets completely disappear resulting in a failed channel or traveling to the location the Thief used Stealth.
Stealth needs a buff. Either get rid of the “Reveal” mechanic or cause channeled abilities to cancel on stealth. This heat seeking missile effect is annoying as hell.
The revealed mechanic is fine, otherwise you would be able to perma C&D like in BWE1.
But all those issues need to be fixed, otherwise any build heavily relying on stealth would be kittened as hell.
How Not To Die When Utilizing Steal
Step 1: Target foe, hit F1
Step 2: Dodge backwards
Step 3: Examine shiny new toy
Step 4: Realize you’ve stolen an item that requires you to be in melee range
Step 5: CryFixed.
If you can’t get back into close range you’re doing it wrong.
Sb + P/P thieves would have a word with you. Ah, and i would love to see you going into the zerg in WvWvW to use your class mechanic, because without any doubt “i’m doing it wrong”, since i don’t want to be in melee range.
How long does it take? I’m not suggesting STAY in there. What are you, nuts?
Against bosses, melee range for a sec means insta death.
In PvP, when i swap sets in order to support, melee range is the last thing i want to bump myself into.
I’m not saying it’s an unbearable issue, but it is an issue.
The worst thing about Steal is the CD , which makes it a forgettable skill, unless you’ve traited it heavily. In PvP it became good only after they made the items freaking OP.
Fact is that Steal is an horribly designed mechanic.
How Not To Die When Utilizing Steal
Step 1: Target foe, hit F1
Step 2: Dodge backwards
Step 3: Examine shiny new toy
Step 4: Realize you’ve stolen an item that requires you to be in melee range
Step 5: CryFixed.
If you can’t get back into close range you’re doing it wrong.
Sb + P/P thieves would have a word with you. Ah, and i would love to see you going into the zerg in WvWvW to use your class mechanic, because without any doubt “i’m doing it wrong”, since i don’t want to be in melee range.
Channeling attacks still hit you after you stealth.
Bouncing attacks still attacking you even when you’re stealthed.
100% cri trait not being 100 %.
Minions/pets/illusions not caring about line of sight after you stealth ( aka: target doesn’t break for them)
Delay after stealthing, making you still hittable by attacks ( instead of going after you, like every attack with no target should do).
Those things ( aside the trait thing) are kittening the thief ridicolously, and also the mesmer to a certain degree.
Can’t really understand why all stealth classes need to be hella bugged anytime a game is released.
I completely agree with ya on all these fronts. Its incredibly annoying that i pull out some sweet mind games on my opponent and vanish. But his minions follow me around the map even when stealthed basically saying. O hay look there he is. The bouncing and channeling skills are annoying but not game breaking. still wish they’d fix/change them. I also find that leap type skills also tend to follow you while stealthed, or maybe its just cause heartseakers hitbox is beyond massive.
As for the trait i’ve never had it not crit, are you sure the traits selected? i know that i often switch chars or relog only to find out 10 minutes later that my traits have all “reset” and i’ve been running a kittened build.
The channeling/bouncing bug is VERY gamebreaking, not any different from pets following you everywhere. It basically shows where you are, with a big cross on your head saying "spam here !!! ".
Same for leaping attacks, that on a burst build can hit you for 3-4 k each, making it ridicolous for the thief, that in the best scenario possible, has 19 k health.
All those stealth issues are terribly annoying, and i found them terribly annoying also with the mesmer, ESPECIALLY in tourneys.
The let's help the Thief thread ( discussion about what is wrong and what isn't about the thief)
in Thief
Posted by: Mrbig.8019
Thief does not need any help. And 15 base initiative is far too OP.
Stealth is broken, despite all the limitations its just strong.
Steal has way too many traits for it, one skill should not give you a super strong ability, aoe blind, stealth, poison, and 2 extra initiative.
The cd between stealths should be increased imo. I can literally spam attacks from stealth, and when im not stealthed, im dodging and leaving caltrops everywhere. Thieves are too hard to hit lol.
Summong thieves is just cheap. We do NOT need any help in the dmg dept, and they also spam blind. I’m talking about the trap btw. Speaking of which, triggering a trap and still remaining in stealth seems..unfair. Maybe not allow them to be set right on top of where ppl are standing.
Thief will probably get a nerfbat once ppl stop spamming heartseeker like noobs.
The reason why the thief needs help is exactly because it’s gimmicky and broken.
Steal has been complained from when the thief has been revealed ( 2 years ago) and the only thing they did is filling it with OP traits making it a “do everything” skill, something absolutely broken.
Oh, and making stolen items ridicolously OP.
Moreover, there’re tons of redundancies and things not working, especially about stealth.
The thief needs TONS of help in order to become a better prof.
Currently it’s not balanced, yet far from being OP. I would worry a lot more about the mesmer.
Channeling attacks still hit you after you stealth.
Bouncing attacks still attacking you even when you’re stealthed.
100% cri trait not being 100 %.
Minions/pets/illusions not caring about line of sight after you stealth ( aka: target doesn’t break for them)
Delay after stealthing, making you still hittable by attacks ( instead of going after you, like every attack with no target should do).
Those things ( aside the trait thing) are kittening the thief ridicolously, and also the mesmer to a certain degree.
Can’t really understand why all stealth classes need to be hella bugged anytime a game is released.
100% crit not being 100% is an issue. Minions not breaking target is an issue.
Channeling, AoE, or ‘swinging blind’ hitting are not issues. Those are counters. Stealth isnt the blind condition. Stealth is stealth and its sans the two issues above— the mechanic is fine as it is.
By no means channeling is a counter, never it was meant to be. If you move and don’t stand still, there’s NO WAY that channeling should follow you, like an heat missile.
It’s like me shooting with a machine gun while my target suddenly becomes invisible, but i still know where he’s going and then keep on shooting on him.
It’s ridicolous.
And the “still hittable” delay is not referring to blind swings, but to aimed attacks like heartseeker still hitting you a second after you went into stealth, ending into you like if target was still there. The heartseeker should simply go after you, like you do if you press the skill with no target. It happens exactly like this SOME FRAMES later, and it’s obvious that it’s a bug.
(edited by Mrbig.8019)
The let's help the Thief thread ( discussion about what is wrong and what isn't about the thief)
in Thief
Posted by: Mrbig.8019
What could be done to increase thief viability ? Simple.
Here i go with my list of suggestion ( hoping this thread won’t end in rage, as usual)
Utilities
Deception
- Remove Blinding powder ( it overlaps with shadow refuge, that is obviously better), change it with:
Dark barrier ->
Create a dome of darkness, reflecting projectiles and removing conditions
CD -> 60 secs Combo field -> dark Duration -> 4 secs Radius -> 360-420
- Change Smoke screen into:
Smoke bomb ->
Launch a smoke bomb, causing blind with each pulse
CD -> 45 secs Combo field -> smoke Duration -> 6 secs Radius -> 360-420
Tricks
Caltrops -> add ground targetting selection
Roll for initiative -> 3 conditions. It overlaps with withdraw as a mobility tool, also removing the same conditions.
Venoms
Skale venom -> BURN ( or bleed) foes with your next 3 attacks ( it overlaps with Spider venom as soon as you get lotus poison: it’s better to give a totally different effect, maybe damage)
Ice drake venom -> added vulnerability ( right now, it’s simply not worth when compared to devourer and spider)
Basilisk -> dunno, i would simply increase ths stun duration to 2 secs and make it unaffected by residual venom. Pretty simple.
Signets
Signet of shadows -> improve movement speed by 10 % . Blind and immobilize your opponent ( as it always should have been)
Signet of agility becomes Signet of thievery-> rip 2 boons from oppoents and give them to allies ( 35 secs CD)
Trap
I don’t like them. They’re bugged, not persistent ( aside ranger ones, which create combo fields), I would simply make them AoE ( like any normal trap should be) and tweak them as it follows ( tripwire would be freaking OP). As they stand, they have no use, aside ambush trap ( which is very powerful).
Shadow trap is a joke, really.
STEAL
Reduce Steal CD to 25 secs, remove the shadowstep ( turning it into a leap forward-return to your previous position animation) , give F2-F3-F4 pockets with shared CD ( 25 secs), with Cunnning ( thief unique stat) to affect pockets recharge time ( instead of Steal recharge time).
Of course stole item power ( and also mug power, of course) should be tweaked.
Mace head crack ( guardian) -> 2 secs daze ( instead of 4)
Healing seed ( ranger) ->4 secs duration ( instead of 6)
ectoplasm ( mesmer) -> gain all boons for 5 secs ( instead of 10 )
throw gunk ( engeneer) -> throw gear ( 2 secs stun)
Ice stab ( elementalist) ->whatever, this is quite bad, especially for ranged thieves
Skull fear ( necro) -> 2 secs duration ( from 3)
blinding thuft ( thief) -> fine as it is
Whirling axes ( war) -> 3 secs duration ( from 5, which is freaking OP)
Initiative
Rise it up to 15 by default, that is all.
tl:dr;
Suggestions made to increase thief viability , making our “meh” utilities into something better.
This to avoid “venoms need”, increase thief combo fields ( with few simple steps) and make all our U-skills good, in order to increase builds variance.
Maybe all of them togheter would be quite OP, but with a good portion of them executed, the thief would be perfect.
now, discuss.
The let's help the Thief thread ( discussion about what is wrong and what isn't about the thief)
in Thief
Posted by: Mrbig.8019
Hello guys,
First of all, i would say that i’m pretty much satisfied with the thief.
Now almost every set is viable, but there are still some lacks.
Some of them are pretty annoying, and sincerely, the thief really feels as the most imba class.
i’ll start with the analysis.
Steal
No really, no.
I don’t want to exaggerate, but this skill ( mechanic ?) just doesn’t feel right from a balance perspective.
6/8 items are OP as hell, THEY EVEN MADE WHIRLING AXE GOOD ( perma evade ? OMG)
4 secs daze ( LOLWUT ?!?!?) from a guardian
AoE heal, condition removal + water field from rangers ( O_O)
3secs AoE fear from necros ( O_o)
etc etc etc.
Then we have Throw gunk and Ice stab . Why , i mean , just why ?
Currently , Steal is really OP, as long as you don’t steal from engies and eles.
People may like it, since they like supermegaiper gimmicks, but this skill just doesn’t feel right.
It’s not balanced, really.
Even more now, that is super useful, i beg aNet to reconsider this mechanic design, since a good rehaul could help those areas where the thief still lacks.
Initiative
Initiative, with the increased regen and traits, just felt right.
The only thing i would do to make ini PERFECT is to increase the pool to 15 ( changing preparedness into something else).
Nothing else, really
Traits
Every traitline has its uses, and its purposes. Aside trickery.
This traitline is simply a mess.
Probably due to Steal being “meh” ( a good skill after 45 or 34 secs, doesn’t really change that much), but the only reason to go into this traitline is preparedness.
And since you put 15 traits, and you’re here, why don’t we put another 5 and take Bountiful theft ( very good).
I would reconsider this traitline, along with Steal, and give by default 15 ini.
Other traitlines are good, but still somehow imba. We’ll see in the next month what else will come out.
A deeper analysis will follow.
Viability
Overall, the thief feels fine.
I’ve to say that i’m probably biased, since i’ve always played a “pseudo” venom build with no share ( leeching venom right now is huge, TOO huge, and shadow rejuvenation is third tier, making leeching venom overall better), but there’s still place for improvements.
Especially on the support department.
yeah, because there’s not thief without a shortbow. Because it’s BY FAR the best weapon, being not only able to dish out decent damage ( cluster bomb hitting for 3.5 – 4k ), but able to deal GOOD support by simply putting 15 points into deadly arts.
Yeah, because those 15 points are really needed to give decent support. With the shortbow, it’s AoE poison+ weakness ( with 30 deadly art point it’s 7 secs of poison-weakness in a single shot, stacking duration), and also make Spider venom HUGE.
Since you’re putting those 15 points, why shouldn’t we put another 5 and create our dear venom build, a very powerful build in tPvP.
I’ve been recently running with a stealth/ganker/high mobility D/P thief, but stealth issues are really destroying this build for competitive play.
Channeling attacks still hit you after you stealth.
Bouncing attacks still attacking you even when you’re stealthed.
100% cri trait not being 100 %.
Minions/pets/illusions not caring about line of sight after you stealth ( aka: target doesn’t break for them)
Delay after stealthing, making you still hittable by attacks ( instead of going after you, like every attack with no target should do).
Those things ( aside the trait thing) are kittening the thief ridicolously, and also the mesmer to a certain degree.
Can’t really understand why all stealth classes need to be hella bugged anytime a game is released.