Guild Wars 2

@evil

As i said, and i know it very well since i main S/D from betas, making FS to simply work wouldn’t change anything, it would still be worse than C&D + tactical strike ( with mesmer runes or sigil of paralyzation for an almost 3 secs daze).

A boon stripping is not enough to justify 4 ini when you have better options at the same cost: it’s initiative nature.

The same is for shadow shot: HS closes the gap as well, it doesn’t root, it deals more damage, it’s a combo finisher. It costs LESS INI.

If i have to blind my opponent, SS is suboptimal to BPS ( unless in very, VERY specific situations) since it blinds from range ( the shot also blinds) and creates a combo field, making , with HS, a free stealth+ blind + AoE combo field pulsing blind+ gap closer+ easy backstab for 6 ini. While SS only offers a gap closer + blind. For 4 ini.

Initiative is absolutely about maximizing your resources: it’s a reward/cost constant ratio.

Currently SS and FS are “almost” ( if not in very, VERY specific situations) subpar to all other skills of the same weaponset.

They need a complete redesign. Just like P/P. This hoping they really want to make the thief viable in different ways.

This will take time. Lots of it. There’re other things being top priority, and thief rebalancing is currently not among them.

You, and all other thief players, need to be patient. That’s all i can say.

Thief fixing and rebalancing will happen.

Currently there’re tons of thing not working/ not working as intended and all the stuff.

Thief damage is over the top in any case, but it’s kinda “forced”, since to enhance our defenses we lose TONS of damage, making thief builds kinda unilateral.

Probably the thief prof should be reconsidered, and that’s why in structured PvP forum devs created a thread dedicated EXCLUSIVELY to thief opinions.

I run no cookie cutter build, i run an S/D build in tourneys, but, altough the dazelock is fun and useful, FS being so bad is really, REALLY destroying the versatility of the set. Even with correct pathing, it would be useless due to C&D + tactical strike being almost always better than a simple boon strip+ medium damage.

Moreover, for tourneys, it’s not possible to make a build without the shortbow, it’s an absolute must have.

I like the thief and the way it plays, but the proff really feels very wrong.

At least devs seem to start understand it.

edit:

The point is that those “fixes” are not top priority.

PvP has no ranking system, no ladders, no spectator mode, no custom arenas, it’s full of bugs etc etc.

It would be ridicolous to believe they’ll fix/rebalance the thief ( or any other proff) before putting all those features live.

We have to wait. And we’ll wait a lot, no doubt about it.

The shortbow is indeed a must in every thief tourney build.

Currently the thief is the only class so restricted on weapon choice.

Necros are picking staff over anything else only due to build variety seriously lacking for them ( the devs clearly stated they need help, infact they’re slowly buffing them with every patch).

Imo, NOTHING should be a must have, but we’ll see in the future.

Dariya.9380:

Not to mention that auto-attack does more damage combined in the same amount of time as FS would. If I am in a team fight, and CCs are being coordinated or I know that I will not be getting hit, then I would always use auto-attack (or CnD+auto) instead of FS — so I see something inherently wrong with the skill that costs 4 initiative and is unreliable.

The odd suff is that FS was created to “suit” the set perfectly, otherwise they wouldn’t have made it as a Dual skill form S+D combo.

The fact that it deals no more damage than simply auto-attacking, in an unreliable way, and that it’s always better to use C&D + tactical strike due to the advantages it provides, shows there’s something wrong.

There would be something wrong even if its path was fixed, because i would NEVER use it over the C&D + tactical strike combo: it doesn’t provide the same advantages ( no more damage, no more utility), even against boon heavy opponents: a daze-lock is always better.

This skill needs serious improvement: anyone saying this skill has potentialities really should rethink about the cost/reward math which ini is all about.

The thief indeed needs tweaks. TONS.

Nerfs in some areas, buffs in some others. It’s obvious.

GET OVER IT.

i can’t view some threads content. People keep on replying in them, but i can’t see anything.

This happened after i replied in those threads.

Any help ?

Stiv.1820:

@Mrbig: nothing in this game requires a target. If I am using Heartseerk without a target to move somewhere quickly and happen to land next to a rabbit I will hit it. Same goes for if I land next to someone in stealth. If they don’t dodge they will get hit. The split second you enter stealth, you aren’t stealthed on their client side and HS will still go to that location. It’s a latency thing, you can still dodge.

I can use unload (or any ranged attack) pointed in the general direction of someone who has stealthed and hit them, even if I don’t start the unload until after they stealth.

This is all obviously by design. It’s real time combat with active dodging.

This is not true.

Channeling/leaps and other kind of moves ( like illusions moves) require a target to be landed correctly.

Example:

My enemy is at 200 range. HS range is 300 ( for istance).

If i hit HS without a target, it will go to full range (300), while if i use it WITH a target ( being at 200 range), HS will carry me AT 200 RANGE.

If stealth was actually working correctly, a HS used against a thief that actually went into stealth RIGHT AFTER his opponent pushed the HS button, should carry the opponent to its full range ( 300), and i should be able to avoid it by simply walking away.

This is not the case. HS will aim at you,even if you move to the side, as long as the opponent pushed the button before you entered stealth, even if it take about half a second to land the hit.

This is no good. Skills like channeling, leaps, pets attacks and similar act like “heat missiles”. They should BY NO MEANS follow you, they should simply continue the animation as if there was no target.

Or rather:

1) Channeling attacks should simply continue aiming straight ahead ( instead of following your moves while stealthed) as soon as you stealth and move aside.

2) Pets should get disoriented as soon as you stealth, instead of attacking and following you while stealthed AS LONG AS THE COMMAND WAS GIVEN BEFORE STEALTH.
Moreover, pets should only attack you again if their master has targeted you again.

Currently, pets act like heat missiles, following you everywhere. AI becomes better than real player skill, and it’s used as an exploit ( even teached in other classes forum as a counter to thieves).
Also, 80% of the time pets totally ignore LoS.

3) Leap attacks should perform full animation when a thief stealths during their travel time, and should drop “auto-tracking”, meaning that if i stealth an move aside, they should ABSOLUTELY not hit me.

Example: if i use blinding power IMMEDIATLY after i see the war using bull’s charge ( meaning I have a good second before it lands on me) and move to the left, the warrior should ABSOLUTELY not follow my movement to the left and land the skill exactly where i am.
Because it would make no sense at all.

I know that from a programming standpoint it’s a lot of work, but those issues are really damaging thief survivability, even more knowing that 70% of our effective tournament builds are based on low HP /toughness and a single HS can deal about 1/4 of our total HP pool, even more if we’re with less than 50 % HP.

this is actualy a good news. I’m not sure if this is working as intended ( it’s strange for that “hard cap” to exist, knowing there are longer dazes than our 2 secs) but as long as it’s like this, it’s even better.

Those extra stats with runes of divinity will really benefit my play.

Thanks

Kitono.9152:

Mrbig you’re wrong about the sigil unless they just tested it. I ran tests on the sigil a couple weeks ago.

tested it right now in the mists.

100% sure sigil of paralyzation doesn’t affect daze duration.

This is not about playstyle, this is about optimization.

FS is slow and unreliable, ANY player with half a brain would NEVER allow you to land the second, most damging, hit without preparation ( root, stun and similar) and your best damaging skill is C&D ( unless against more opponents, in that case DD becomes better), that is ALWAYS followed by a 2secs daze.

S/D is a set where you’re supposed to be in stealth a lot, even more knowing that inf strike allows C&D to land 100% of the time.

There’s no reason to not enhance your abilities while stealthed via shadow arts as long as you play with S/D, at least if you want to do high damage and be a roamer.

If you don’t like stealth, there’s no real reason to pick S/D and not a different weapon set : S/D is optimal only when stealth is enhanced at its best.

Tulisin.6945:

>“you can build an S/D differently of course, but shadow arts is a must. Otherwise there’s simply no reason to have an off hand dagger without heavy stealth components over a off hand pistol.”

Not so at all. I run S/D without shadow arts at all. Dancing Dagger alone is a good reason to use /D instead of /P, and C&D can still be effective without Shadow Arts, you just can’t base your entire setup around it. S/* favors a target rich environment, and S/D caters to that far moreso than S/P.

so you’re preferring dancing dagger over an on demand interrupt, an AoE pulsing blind and a great burst attack ? even more knowing that FS is currently useless ?

Great choice.

@kitono

Sigil of paralyzation doesn’t work on dazes, only stuns. With S/D, mesmer runes are basically a must.

ZLE.8293:

Redscope.6215:

ZLE.8293:

metaphorm.6904:

my suggestion is to play your Thief more and reconsider your opinions.

OK i am lvl 80,and i am rank 29 SPvP,so i figure i have played enough.
Here is my observation about stealth in SPvP:
1.Channeling abilities like Unload,Rapid Fire are hitting you in stealth no matter if you moved away from the place you stealthed.
2.Not channeling skills that require target like Eviscerate,Heartseeker are hitting you more that a second after you vanished.
3.When you brake stealth,one million of a second after that ,all mesmer illusions,pets,minions and so on are completely aware where are you and are fully unloading,charging or whatever they are doing.
Those things are annoying to say the least,but more like negating the very idea of stealth.

Sorry for being brief, but I have simple game mechanic answers to these points:

1. Stealth is not meant to be a free dodge roll. If you’re cast on before you stealth, you still have to dodge the attack.
2. See #1
3. When you’re not in stealth, you’re not in stealth? I don’t understand…you want the mesmer clones to stop attacking you when you’re not stealthed?

What is the purpose of stealth then?Hide your armors an weapons from the enemy,so he cannot determine your rank?Nothing against weapons swings and AOE,but if you are chasing someone and start channeling a skills and in the middle of the skill he turns around the corner you have “obscured”.But if in the middle of the skill he goes invisible you just continue to damage him like nothing happens?How about you start channeling a skill and a random class pop ups block skill for 3 seconds,and nothing happens,cuz you already started casting it and he have to dodge it?
1.Following attacks need something to follow…
2.Targeting something that you cannot see and you cannot target with TAB….excuse me sir…
3.Illusions find me when i appear out of line of sight.Are they illusions or Heat missiles?
And you are right ,you don’t understand.

the point is that in this thread there’s really lot of ignorance about the game itself, not only about stealth, and i would really start to ignore those people, because they’re simply not useful for this discussion to proceed ( altough there’s no need for this discussion, since stealth is simply bugged and needs fixing).

1. Channeling needs a target. There’s no “auto-tracking” without a target, in this game attacks are not “homing missiles” like in WoW.
This means that without a target, the channeling should be interrupted as soon as the stealthed target moves aside.
Thing that is not happening currently.

2. “leap” attacks and similar need a target to be landed, otherwise they’ll simply perform the full animation, carrying you to their full range.
When a thief/mesmer stealths, for a good second he’s still targettable by those attacks, since the animation stops on you instead of being performed to full range.

This is indeed a bug, since when trying this agains spamseekers ( best example), the first one after stealth will almost always land on you, while the next one will simply pass “through”, surpassing your location ( showing that it’s clearly a bug and not intended).

3. Basically i’ve noticed that any action started before your opponents stealths, will ALWAYS land when its cast time is finished.

This is the main gripe about stealth, since no matters if you stealth while your opponent is casting something: simply because he has given the command BEFORE you’ve stealthed his action will follow you.

This is particulary bad against AI, since they will follow you like “heat missiles” and show to everybody where you are.

you can build an S/D differently of course, but shadow arts is a must. Otherwise there’s simply no reason to have an off hand dagger without heavy stealth components over a off hand pistol.

you can make it a venom share build based on survivability and evasion ( with trickery and deadly arts), but if your goal is to bring down people 1vsX ( and be also viable in tournaments), there’s no better S/D build than the one i posted (currently).

Sadly the thief can’t be built as a bunker effectively, due to stealth not being recognized while contesting ( aka: if you’re stealthed, your opponents will cap the point even if you’re there), that’s why the only use for an S/D build is for 1vs1 while roaming or solo defending, or for support, with venom share.

Bazeleel.8219:

I have been testing the sword/dagger and I have had some good games with this build, Yet I am finding it lacks something. What could I be missing?

http://www.gw2db.com/skills/calc/thief#2|3|2642|6677|2631|2786|11435|20|1738|1714|0|30|1190|1193|1728|0|0|0|0|20|1165|1700|0|0|0|0|0|19|0|5|28033|61745|49965|49965|49965|49965|49965|21031|48789|0|0|0|0|

Look my above post.

Your build is simply not effective, there’s no real S/D build without going heavy with shadow arts.

http://www.gw2db.com/skills/calc/thief#2|3|2642|8743|2631|134|4485|10|1738|0|0|30|1190|1731|1728|30|2198|2199|751|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|10|3|5|28043|28033|53491|53491|53491|53491|53491|25790|48788|0|0|0|0|

This is the build i’m playing. The tooltip is wrong , in game i have 51 % crit and 15.855 HP but whatever.

It requires skill to be used.

6x Mesmer runes for +33% daze duration ( making tactical strike daze lasting 2.6 secs, an eternity).

Stealth will give you 330 healt per sec + remove a condition WHEN you enter stealth and one every 3 secs ( C&D alone removes 2 conditions and heal for 1.3 k health, as long as you don’t attack).

You need great awareness of your position, inf strike is extremely important, since you need to juke and disorient your enemies a lot.

Scorpionwire is your on demand interrupt, and you need to time it well, especially against bunker guardians ( you absolutely need to interrupt their heal, or the fight will simply never end, as long a you’re good enough to dance around him in stealth).

your damage is good, your burst is reliant on mug, make sure to use it when your foes is below 50 % health ( according to the fight, of course). You’re not as bursty as other builds, but your sustained is a lot higher, and moreover you have tons of escaping tools+ tactical strike stunlock ( the daze will ALWAYS expire after the revelead debuff, so you can totally dazelock your opponent if you’re smart enough).

Leave DB , HS and PW spam to noobs, and learn to play a real build. the thief will seem much more interesting as soon as you start playing with other builds, and maybe thief “noob” aura will slowly fade away.

I would also suggest a P/D condition damage variant, also realying on heavy stealthing.

rickshaw.5279:

I would take Mug over both traits you took in deadly arts. Traps really aren’t that great in PvP and Sundering Strikes is hands down a PvE trait. Most fights are over in seconds, you’ll never get a valued return on Sundering in PvP. That’s a sustained DPS trait. I’d sooner take venomous strength.

Traps really suck in PvP. PvE they’re awesome. Sword and Dagger is bar none the lamest weapon combo we got. I’m all for accepting a challenge and trying to make odd combinations work but S/D is hopeless in PvP atm. I eat S/D’ers alive.

Only because most people have absolutely no clue about how to build and play an S/D build.

I play S/D and eat alive all classes. All builds. As long as i play better than them , since S/D is the only set really able to deal with all classes, turning it all about player skill.

And i’m eagerly waiting for FS to become something useful, since when it will happne, i’ll eat alive other classes even more.

More than anything, it’s freaking slow and overall it deals about the same damage of C&D, with less utility.

There’s no advantage in using FS over a traited ( 2ini return on stealth) C&D , and since there’re no viable S/D builds not being power based, and FS is a power based skill, there’s obviously a problem with it if there’s NEVER any opportunity chance to use FS effectively.

I know FS fixing/rewamping is not top priority, but as an S/D tourney player, it’s really annoying to have a useless skill on my already restricted weapon bar.

great post, really.

I play thief, and i’m higly struggling in finding a defined role for my thief, since as you said, a thief is next to useless in high toughness/conditions comps ( and usually it’s very tough to defeat a bunker guardian/ele defending a point with a burst build).

personally i believe that a huge rebalance should be done to the class.

Anyway, the fact you put guardian/mesmer on top, says it all about current balance, since there are teams with triple/double mesmer/guardian being very succesful.
TOO successful -.-‘’’

Jack of Tears.9458:

Steal, when used intelligently – and especially when traited into – is an awesome ability that isn’t given enough credit by people who aren’t learning how to use it or giving it a chance.

Initiative is also awesome; I love the fact that it lets us be more versatile, more maneuverable, more calculating, in our builds. Init is one of those things that makes up for us having some weaknesses compared to other classes, when used right. (in fact, the Thief is one of those classes that “when used right” just needs to be tacked onto its head … because it is a class with a learning curve)

Though I love some things about most of the classes I’ve played, I love everything about the Thief … well, everything but our downed state, which is useless 7 out of 10 times … and always go back to her.

There’s not enough credit to Steal because it doesn’t have any: Steal currently is simply an OP ability in PvP ( as long as you steal from a guardian/warrior/necro), becoming even more OP and gimmicky if you trait into it , and very, VERY underwhelming in PvE, especially in boss fights.

As i said before, i run an S/D build ad my only reliable burst resides in Mug , and Steal really has the power to change the tide of the fight, but this doesn’t mean the skill is nor balanced neither fun : it’s just OP.

At least in PvP.

In PvE it’s not even OP: you can find better skills by simply picking up environmental weapons.

Simply because Initiative is a good mechanic ( i won’t discuss about its balance altough), it doesn’t mean that Steal can be underwhelming.

if they nerf thieves ( some builds indeed need to be toned down) and don’t nerf mesmers and guardians, i can say i’ve totally lost faith in this game to be balanced properly.

Mark these words.

Having inititiative doesn’t change the fact that Steal is an underwhelming, poorly balanced, badly designed mechanic.

Necros got DS AND minions. Rangers have pets AND spirits ( since they’re no different from a standopoint as a mechanic) and other classes have tons of other mechanics as well, if you really want to consider them to be ( mesmers have illusions + shatters, guardians have virtues + spirit weapons etc..)

Initiative is no different as a mechanic than other classes “features”.

It’s a bit misleading to think that the thief is the only class having “multiple” mechanics, and the major reason why people are “lead” to think that Steal can be so underwhelming.

There’re no excuses for Steal to be like that, and i’m saying it knowing that Steal is currently the only thing able to change my fight with my build, because i know that Steal is ABSOLUTELY not fine as it is.

get points according to the time you spend on a point defending it.

Make it so that those points are more than simply going killing noobs ( something like 10 points every 15-20 secs on a point).

> this will lead to a new pug meta, easily recalled as “sissy strategy” ( all people staying in a point, fearing attacks from the other team or zerging from point to point).

Then make that the losing team will gain HALF the points they obtained in the match.

Pew pew, here you have your balanced sPvP experience, where people plays TO WIN, instead of just killing stuff.

No aNet, don’t thank me, i know i’m awsum.

metaphorm.6904:

Mrbig.8019:

The trick there would be to reduce stolen items effectiveness.

Current items are way too powerful, and from a balance perspective, since the thief has so small weapon choice ( aka: it’s predictable), having multiple slots to use our stolen items with more fluidity will make the thief much, MUCH more interesting.

Put a small shared CD to avoid big stolen items bursts and problem solved.

Of course Steal would also need a fairly softened CD ( 25 secs ), softened damage on Mug, and cunning reducing the F2-F4 pockets shared CD instead of reducing Steal CD.

Voilà.

this is a direction i’d feel pretty happy about. a shorter cooldown Steal would make sense for an item-storing implementation since you’d want to have more opportunities to steal items to store. 25 seconds or 30 seconds sounds pretty reasonable. i’ve frequently played builds with 30 points in Trickery and the 34 second cooldown on Steal from that is a noticeable difference.

and as you say, all of the Trait abilities that are linked to Steal would have to be rebalanced based on a shorter cooldown. just time normalized basically. Mug damage is the only one that obviously should be affected by this. It would still be a good Trait even if its damage was reduced by 20% (to make up for shorter CD).

the reason i like the idea of stored items so much is that it adds alot of strategic dimension to the class. the idea of saving a good stolen item for later is very appealing. i think it would be fun and bring out alot of player choice and meaningful decision making, which are all good things for the game.

as far as balancing the actual stolen skills themselves, besides time normalizing the damage output on them (going from something based on 45 second CD to something based on 30 second CD, probably a 20-25% reduction of effect), i don’t think any of them are really out of line right now.

Some items are OP.
Whirling axes is OP, guardian’s 4 secs daze is OP, fear skull is OP.

In a fight with lots of classes, the thief steals from these 3 proffs by default, stealing from other proffs only in specific situations ( from rangers if you need cond removal for your team, from engies to defend a cap point against condi-weak enemies and stuff).

It’s pretty standard to avoid stealing from eles and thieves ( unless you desperetely needs the stealth) and mesmer stealing doesn’t affect the fight like other ones.
While mesmer, engi and rangers stuff are goods, the first 3 are too much better.
Ele’s ice stab is the only one really underwhelming, when compared to other ones.
They would need a good rebalancing: they would need it even if they’re going to stick with this steal implementation.

Knyx.5926:

KaiserCX.7103:

@Knyx not letting me quote, these forums are weird sometimes. If they were to speed up and remove the root on Pistol Whip then they definitely need to lower the damage, personally I’d be happy with the change. It’d be less burst damage but more reliable I think.

I suggested they make FS a shadow step behind a while back as well, just make the first attack an evasive attack then shadow step behind. I wish they would do this or at least add immobilize to the first hit of FS as Dual suggested, it would at least be a decent band-aid. With that they still need to make it dodge during the entire spin animation. Another issue I have with it is it feels clunky, you can’t really use it as a reactionary dodge due to it not cancelling out your current attack and the start up of it not actually dodging anything. Perhaps if sword #1 was faster it wouldn’t be quite as bad, but they would have to reduce the damage on it. Personally I dislike the idea of parry/block it could be too abusable with our imitative, I mean look at Nine-Tail Strike underwater.

Well the fix that I am sure is coming for quickness across the board of all classes, I don’t think a damage reduction will be needed on Pistol whip or any sword abilities with the removal self root and quickened attack times

I don’t really see quickness as a problem. Probably because i’m playing the classes with teleports ( ele, thief, mesmer), but a simple stunbreaker will totally void all those “haste spammers” efforts.

The only thing the sword needs is a good redesign of FS, nothing more.

metaphorm.6904:

there are a few classes that only have F1 actually. not all of the class mechanics need multiple buttons.

Warriors just have the single F1 button to make their burst attack. the rest of the class mechanic is managed more passively through things related to accumulating Adrenaline.

Necromancers also just have the single F1 button, to go into Death Shroud mode. similar to Warriors burst attack, the rest of the mechanic is managed more passively through things related to accumulating Life Force.

and similarly the Thief also just has the single F1 button to Steal, with the rest of the interactions with the class mechanic occurring passively with the Traits to make Steal do extra stuff.
————————
edit: idea for actually using F2-F4

one of the better suggestions I’ve read from other posters on this forum is to have the extra slots act as storage for stolen item/abilities. For example F1 would always be the steal button, and it would deposit a stolen skill in the next available storage slot. you’d press F2, F3, or F4 to use the stolen item stored in that slot.

from a design perspective i feel like that would be an elegant and flavorful use of the other F buttons. i do think it would be kinda overpowered though.

The trick there would be to reduce stolen items effectiveness.

Current items are way too powerful, and from a balance perspective, since the thief has so small weapon choice ( aka: it’s predictable), having multiple slots to use our stolen items with more fluidity will make the thief much, MUCH more interesting.

Put a small shared CD to avoid big stolen items bursts and problem solved.

Of course Steal would also need a fairly softened CD ( 25 secs ), softened damage on Mug, and cunning reducing the F2-F4 pockets shared CD instead of reducing Steal CD.

Voilà.

Lol, when i first said “steal is meh from a design perspective and OP from a performance perspective” i got stormraged.

Now, with more experience, people is slowly starting to understand how simple and bad designed steal is.

The items are OP, the traits are OP BUT STILL it feels so irrilevant for thief gameplay.

In my build i use it almost exclusively for its damage with mug, and the stolen item is only a bonus. An OP bonus.

Clearly a well rounded and designed mechanic

/shrug

Bazeleel.8219:

You are forced to play nothing but bursty bullcrap in tournament or some ranged BS that shares poisons.

It figures though every MMO always kittens the assassin class because people are to stupid to understand how they work.

Heartseeker build is a completel joke and lacks any skill and who the hell wants to play that? Yes spam one button, this is GW2 not WoW. I want to be able to actually play the game. Condition damage build are great but you are killed long before the bleeds do anything to your target, not to mention almost every class seems to be able to clear them without thinking.

The build I currently have gives me 23k HP, 1.5k armor, 2.3k attack(1.1k weapon damage), a ton of dodge and stealth, and over all great mobility and consent damage. Yet a 13k HP thief can come in and still kill me in 2 seconds. REALLY?! Not to mention a Warrior with 24k HP can kill me even faster.

Every other class has great survivablity, and skills that complement each other the thief really doesn’t. I feel that they tried to give this class way to much and not enough reasons to use them.

If i wanted to play a ranger I would, why do i have shortbow? Why is P/P completely useless and really is used for unload and thats it? Why does heartseeker miss 90% of the time? Why does LDB and HS root you in the ground? Why does half throwing skills never work and say obstructed when clearly they are in LOS?

All this stuff has really made me hate the class and the game and I want to like but why play a class when you can play other classes that do everything the thief can do but better and even do more damage and survive longer?

I do not want to play different class but the thief is not what it should be. That is all I have to say.

Dude, try playing S/D power/crit or P/D condition based ( acro+shadow arts).

They’re the only sets that actually require skill to be played.

Leave pistol whipping and HS spam to the noobs.

Dual.8953:

I’m much prefer Evading over Blocking for S/D. I don’t want it feeling clunky and rooted like S/P.

Mesmers can block while moving.

I see no problem in giving to the thief the same stuff.

I would also be fine with the evade, as long as it’s fast, reliable, and actually evades THE WHOLE duration.

they’ve already answered to the “pvp whiners” call.

Patiance to wait is up to us.

The blogpost will come: what i’m REALLY hoping to come is a big balance patch, in order to nerf those ridicolous mesmers/guardians: because till balance is like this, a ranking system is kinda useless, since “competitive” teams wil simply play a triple guardian/mesmer – double guardian/mesmer team and roflstomp anything.

bwillb.2165:

Mrbig:

The sad part is that in PvP there’s no reason to use FS instead of C&D: easier to get, faster animation( it actually HITS, i would like FS to do the same), tactical advantage ( stealth), more utility ( FS removes a boon, JEZUZ ITS AWSUM -.-’’) and about the same damage.

Flanking Strike also evades. The main problem with it is just that the positioning is broken. It seems like it worked much better in beta, but right now it seems to just fling you a random distance away from the front or side of the target, often not even in melee range, when it’s supposed to put you right behind them.

Yes, it does evade.

HOWEVER, the evade starts after a good delay, and your second attack is so slow that usually you take more damage than you did ( because it DOES NOT evade while dealing it).

This, along with the nice auto-facing feature aNet smartly decided to implement, makes FS totally worthless, since your enemy will follow your pathing by simply standing still and auto-attacking.

I just can’t understand why DB evades during the whole duration ( dealing about the same damage) while FS is so subpar.

I would make it like Nine Tailed strike (spear 3) but with a different variation ( it would be too good in PvE):

Flanking strike → 4 ini

Block an attack with your sword: shadowstep on your foe’s back and stab him with your dagger, leaving him [vulnerable, weakened, poisoned, boon removed…. whatever].
Gain 1 ini if you don’t block.

Block duration : 2 secs

The sad part is that in PvP there’s no reason to use FS instead of C&D: easier to get, faster animation( it actually HITS, i would like FS to do the same), tactical advantage ( stealth), more utility ( FS removes a boon, JEZUZ ITS AWSUM -.-’’) and about the same damage.

FS is exclusively wasted ini.

I’m playing an S/D build and i ( now, after thousand of tries about choosing the build) can fight effectively against ANY class ( lol, even mesmers and guardians).

Never used FS even once.

i would say that Stealth issues are becoming very, VERY annoying.

Now, in other classes forum , THEY’RE EVEN TELLING HOW TO CHEAT against stealthed thieves ( “follow your pet and shot /AoE there”, or “net turret will target stealthed enemies, so you can activate the daze” and stuff).

i’m tired of losing duels to pets following me everywhere, channeling/bouncing and turrets targeting me while stealthed and things like those.

At higher levels, a thief can be cheated and totally foretold as long as those bugs are still there, especially if you’re running an S/D build, bad on its own.

it’s frustrating.

at this point, i can only hope to have a good, competitive game after some months from now.

because the game is not competitive( no ladders, no custom matches, no ranking) neither balanced ( lol mesmers and guardians).

kittenon of bugs ( LoS ingored, pets following you EVERYWHERE in the map, stealth bugged as crap), this game is no different from the beta tons of us have already played.

At least, the game is fun: i’m leveling my char, something i wouldn’t do if PvP was actually fine, waiting for a HUGE rebalancing/bug fixing.

I’ll suggest you all to do the same.

metaphorm.6904:

only certain builds of Mesmers or Guardians are hard counters against certain builds of Thieves. So while its true that a Defensivesly built Guardian will hard-counter a Burst Damage built Thief its not true that Guardian > Thief in general. i don’t have a problem with this situational, contextual, build-specific hard countering. That seems like a fair way to implement a PvP metagame.

A well built mesmer ( with arcane thievery/null field or condition removals) can totally shut down any thief.
Especially power/crit mesmers are unbeatable, not only for the thief, but for every class.

The guardian can easily go offensive, with the right build, and have 3k+ toughness.

Those 2 classes hard counter the thief ridicolously, while there’re no counters to them, if not coordinated CC/burst.

This is not the symptom of a good meta game, it’s only the symptom of OP professions dominating PvP ( retri monks ? sounds familiar).

As thieves, we can’t really blame nothing since we’re definitively better ( about performances, surely not about thief design) than most other classes, but hard counters are not how the game has been presented , or rather a game where skill will trump builds/professions .

As long as the game is like this, no matters how brutally i’ll outplay the guardian/ mesmer, he will always win if he’s AT LEAST able to use his stunbreakers.

And for the majority of other classes ( necros, eles and warriors on top), it’s even worse than for thieves.

some error here and there:

initiative regens on a rate of 0.75 per sec. 3 ini every 4 secs. The solution is wrong, since it states ( 1.67) 2 ini every 3 secs.

Chill doesn’t prevent dodging, only immobilize, as far as conditions go.

Combo fields: an AoE finisher can trigger both combo fields as long as they’re not overlapped ( tried with cluster bomb detonate on various combo fields).

personally i agree.

As things stand now, mesmers and guardians ( and engeneers, to a certain degree) are the only REAL classes able to achieve what aNet stated long ago: skill will overcome builds.

Sadly other classes can’t even come close to this goal, and that’s why guardians and mesmers are considered overpowered, while the point is that other classes are simply not as good as them.

I just hope aNet will find a way to balance this out, because tourney teams already found how potent double mesmers-guardians can be, and if they’re trying other comps is simply for the lulz.

i would say that mesmers-guardians are just hard counters. This is bad by default, since in this game there should be no hard counters, but whatever -.-’’

Heavy condition necros are also tough to beat, but it’s doable by any kind of thief build, it’s only tougher.

I’m currently running a S/D+ shortbow power/crit build with mesmer runes, and i can also say that all those stealth bugs are TOTALLY RUINING any try for a stealth thief to be competitive : people will abuse of pets following you in stealth ( AOE HERE !!!!) , of channeling following while stealthed ( AOE HERE !!!) of bouncing attacks hitting you in stealth ( AOE HERE !!!), of their attacks still hitting you, like if you were targettable, A GOOD TIME AFTER you’ve stealthed.

Thief needs tons of fixing on lots of his skills ( FS, Shadow shot, Heartseeker, shadowsteps in general, scorpionwire ) and after that, still i would struggle to find a role to the thief, in a world where every team has 2 mesmers and 2 guardians, with the other being an engeneer.

Animus.6073:

Mrbig.8019:

Snort.3698:

@mrbig

Go 30 radiance, pick up your + 15 % crit with main hand sword, get pow-vit-tough gear.
I hit like a truck, heal with shouts, 3.2 k toughness.

err 3.2k toughness?

screenshot it.

No need to screenshot, this is my build ( the tooltip is a little wrong, since i have less critical chance and power, and more armor, but whatever it can give you the overall idea.).

http://gw2skills.net/editor/en/?fUAQRAse7dlYgaDnGyKEm4Eh1DCeQ/hVgjXPgIFbIA;TwAA1CnoqxUjoGbNuak1siYExWkpIA

Hit like a truck, 45 % crit chance, 3k+ toughness.

You can remove valor traits and put them into zeal and virtues to make it a spirit weapon build with 2.8k+ toughness.

The guardian is like the most OP class currently along with the mesmer. SERIOUSLY.

Armor =/= Toughness. Major difference. Using a shield instead of a Focus or a Torch is also hurting you. That said, your build is fairly solid if you support it with the right gear. I wouldn’t use this as an example of why the “Guardian is OP,” which I disagree with in any case. Versatile is a better word in my opinion.

I have the focus. Torch has less utility than a shield, plus you would have no interrupts to block enemy heals.

I’ve tried it in cap defenses in torunament, and it’s like the most overpowered thing a guardian would ever achieve: very good damage, great survivability, great group support.

Not only that, it’s also unkillable in 1vs1, if well played.

I believe people tend to underrate the guardian because they don’t know hot to build them, and because the death log only shows the “LULZ 15 K HUNDERED BLADS, WAR IS DA OP”, while the warrior is like one of the most useless classes in PvP, unless shout heavy.

@ other people

Conditions are bad for the guardian ? only if you make them hurt you. Contemplation of purity, passive on signet of resolve, smite condition etc.

Do an offensive shout guardian, then come back here.

Snort.3698:

@mrbig

Go 30 radiance, pick up your + 15 % crit with main hand sword, get pow-vit-tough gear.
I hit like a truck, heal with shouts, 3.2 k toughness.

err 3.2k toughness?

screenshot it.

No need to screenshot, this is my build ( the tooltip is a little wrong, since i have less critical chance and power, and more armor, but whatever it can give you the overall idea.).

http://gw2skills.net/editor/en/?fUAQRAse7dlYgaDnGyKEm4Eh1DCeQ/hVgjXPgIFbIA;TwAA1CnoqxUjoGbNuak1siYExWkpIA

Hit like a truck, 45 % crit chance, 3k+ toughness.

You can remove valor traits and put them into zeal and virtues to make it a spirit weapon build with 2.8k+ toughness.

The guardian is like the most OP class currently along with the mesmer. SERIOUSLY.

i do think guardians are OP.

Go 30 radiance, pick up your + 15 % crit with main hand sword, get pow-vit-tough gear.

I hit like a truck, heal with shouts, 3.2 k toughness.

it’s ridicolous.

Dual.8953:

Mrbig.8019:

kevin.3584:

Mrbig.8019:

steal doesn’t have a steep learning curve ( if you really believe this, this game is probably not for you).

I hate when people say that this game is not for you. Just because he thinks it has a steep learning curve doesn’t mean he shouldn’t be playing this game. I see this comment way too often, and strangely enough it’s only on this game.
I think it’s up to the players to decide for themselves if this game is ‘not for them’.

the point is that there’s so misinformation about this class that it’s getting ridicolous.

People saying the thief is hard, people saying Steal has a steep learning curve and bullkitten like this have totally no clue not only about the thief, but about the whole game.

People keep on saying about how “awsum Steal is a gap clos n das dmg n givz sthealt n poizon enemys” etc etc etc without actually understand that this happens ONLY if you trait for it .

Without traits, Steal is nothing more than another U-skill on a far too long CD.

It has been crap for almost 2 years till now, when they made it at least useful in Pvp by making Mug dealing tons of damage and making almost every skill you can steal an utterly Op crap, like the “spin to win”.

This is absolutely not right, nor for the thief to be called “thief” and not “assassin”, neither for our enemies when they get feared for 3 secs ( lol, not even the necro with full fear traits and necro runes has so much fear in his arsenal) or daze-locked for 4 secs ( by simply clicking a button against a guardian).

Stop being kids and try to understand the game a little better, because Steal is nothing else than a gimmick.

So okay, skipping the PvP veteran uber pro insults at the intelligence at everyone in the thread you go, Steal isn’t strong without traits and is overhyped, then you go it was never strong but now is strong with trait. Then you say that stolen abilities are OP’d and shouldn’t be over the course of a paragraph, accusing a thief of not being a thief, without explaining what a thief should be. And end off with another uber pro insult calling Steal a cheap trick. Try to be more organized and respectful in the future, we don’t need GW2’s community devolving into another club of irritable elitists.

it’s not hard, and it’s not about being elitists.

Steal is bad designed from every PoV.

1) too long CD , making it by default “not so relevant” for thief gameplay. While other classes have their mechanics highly incorporated within how they play, this is not valid for the thief, since it’s a real “thief” only every 45 secs ( unlike necros, rangers, wars, mesmers and all other classes).

2) to justify the long CD, stolen skills have ridicolously OP effects, like the “spin to win” or the 4 secs daze, or the AoE 3 secs fear, or the AoE heal+ condition removal lasting an eternity and even more.

3) to make Steal more appealing, you can bump tons of traits into it, making it even more OP.

tl:dr;

Steal, untraited, is only an unappealing OP skill ( in PvP), used only because it’s a free shadowstep and an OP bonus skill

Steal, traited, is ridicolously OP, a “do everything skill”. A gimmick.

This has nothing to do with elitism.

People saying “steal has a steep learning curve” and me bashing on them, THAT is elitism.

metaphorm.6904:

Mrbig.8019:

Now almost every set is viable, but there are still some lacks.

disagree. the disparity in usefulness and efficiency between the weapon sets is very large. i think alot of people agree with me on this. my opinion of the relative rankings of the sets for PvP is as follows (ranked from best to worst)

1) Sword+Pistol tied with Dagger+Dagger (both very effective melee sets)
2) Shortbow (nearly mandatory weapon for your weapon swap, incredibly high utility even if damage is only moderate)
3) huge gap. no other weapon set is close to the ones mentioned above
4) Dagger+Pistol (still a respectable 1on1 set but suffers badly from total lack of AoE)
5) Pistol+Dagger (can be useful for harrasment and defensive kiting, sometimes used by venom aura support builds, but generally tough to justify due to low damage)
6) Pistol + Pistol (should have good single target damage, but doesn’t because Unload is too inefficient for its initiative cost. like Dagger+Pistol, this also suffers greatly from total lack of AoE.)
7) Sword+Dagger (basically just dysfunctionally bad in PvP. low damage, broken dual skill)

This is only up to playstyles.

Personally i prefer D/P with a backstab build, since the stealth is less noticaeble. Moreover, it’s on demand, and creates great confusion.

S/D only lack is FS ( orrible skill, hands down), but with the right build not only it deals great damage, but can also totally lock you down with perma dazing.

The only one seriously lacking is P/P and we all agree on this.

I think that some changes to shadow shot and Flanking strike would totally solve the issues of D/P and S/D.

I have totally no idea about how to fix P/P tough.

metaphorm.6904:

Mrbig.8019:

Initiative

Initiative, with the increased regen and traits, just felt right.

The only thing i would do to make ini PERFECT is to increase the pool to 15 ( changing preparedness into something else).

kinda agree. Preparedness feels REALLYkittenimportant. whenever I’m playing a build without it I feel just generically weaker and more awkward. I think the initiative system is very good in general but i don’t like having a trait that feels as close to “must have” as Preparedness now feels. note that i don’t feel like this is a power level issue. 12 initiative is enough, really. its just that 15 feels so much better. In the interest of build diversity i wouldn’t mind seeing some kind of change here.

Mrbig.8019:

Traits

Every traitline has its uses, and its purposes. Aside trickery.
This traitline is simply a mess.

Probably due to Steal being “meh” ( a good skill after 45 or 34 secs, doesn’t really change that much), but the only reason to go into this traitline is preparedness.
And since you put 15 traits, and you’re here, why don’t we put another 5 and take Bountiful theft ( very good).

I would reconsider this traitline, along with Steal, and give by default 15 ini.

i couldn’t disagree more strongly. Steal is not a MEH ability at all. its really really good, and not just for the stolen items (those those are good too). The traits in several of the lines make Steal into an absolutely awesome build focal point ability.

For example, I often play a backstab build with points in Deadly Arts and Shadow Arts. This spec gets a Steal that does large burst damage (from mug), inflicts Poison and Weakness (from Serpent’s Touch and Lotus Poison), and puts you in a 3 second Stealth (from Hidden Thief), which blinds all enemies near you automatically (from Cloaked in Shadow, synergizing with Hidden Thief). Then you’re in stealth and right next to your opponent so you can unload a huge, auto crit (from Hidden Killer) Backstab for gigantic burst damage.

That is NOT a “meh” ability. I’d gladly use that ability even if it didn’t steal any items at all. The traits make Steal AWESOME. So good that being able to do it every 34 seconds instead of every 45 seems useful to me.

That aside, I also think you’re wrong that the Trickery trait line is a mess. I think most people will strongly disagree with you here. Some of the most powerful and useful traits are in this line. I think if you ask the community you’ll find that Kleptomianc, Preparedness, Uncatchable, Thrill of the Crime, Initial Strike, and Bountiful Theft are all very popular because they are powerful and useful.

The reason why this traitline is bad is because Preparedness should be set by default, and because Steal should really be different ( for the reason mentioned above).

While the traits are good, it only reduces Steal CD, nothing else. The attributes you gain are neglectible, even for condition builds, unless you go DB spam, and still you go there for the traits ( especially the one giving 4 ini on healing skill), not for Steal CD reduction.

(lol, forum is broken again)

@metaphorm

The point about Steal is that the stolen abilities are far from being “balanced”.

Whirling axes DOES evade, it’s not called "spin to win " without a reason. With a crit build, i do from 6 to 10 k damage. AoE. Without getting harmed. it’s ridicolous.

4 secs daze from a guardian allow me to put EVEN A GUARDIAN ( the tougher class in the game, hands down) from 100 to 0, unless heavily built with stun breakers-toughness. I’ll let you figure it out how it goes against other classes.

6/8 stolen skills are ridicolously OP. And they made them like this because in early stage of this game, Steal wasn’t used at all. Because nobody cared about a 45 secs CD skill with weak effects.
Then they made those skills non random and ridicolously OP and OPLA’, everybody use Steal.

Thieves are using Steal because it’s OP, and it becomes even more OP when you fill it with traits. LOL, Mug alone justifies the usage of this skill, with its 4k damage.

Steal is not a good mechanic, it’s just an OP skill with tons of effect added, making it a “do everything” no brainer: a gimmick ( this is also answering to @dual)

Of course Steal it’s useful: it’s OP.

But it’s not well designed, neither incorporated into thief playstyle : the only way to really incorporate it and feel Steal being part of your class is when you put Hidden Thief on a stealth build, also sensibly reducing Steal CD ( because no matter what, 45 secs CD is ALWAYS too much, even when traited).

kevin.3584:

Mrbig.8019:

steal doesn’t have a steep learning curve ( if you really believe this, this game is probably not for you).

I hate when people say that this game is not for you. Just because he thinks it has a steep learning curve doesn’t mean he shouldn’t be playing this game. I see this comment way too often, and strangely enough it’s only on this game.
I think it’s up to the players to decide for themselves if this game is ‘not for them’.

the point is that there’s so misinformation about this class that it’s getting ridicolous.

People saying the thief is hard, people saying Steal has a steep learning curve and bullkitten like this have totally no clue not only about the thief, but about the whole game.

People keep on saying about how “awsum Steal is a gap clos n das dmg n givz sthealt n poizon enemys” etc etc etc without actually understand that this happens ONLY if you trait for it .

Without traits, Steal is nothing more than another U-skill on a far too long CD.

It has been crap for almost 2 years till now, when they made it at least useful in Pvp by making Mug dealing tons of damage and making almost every skill you can steal an utterly Op crap, like the “spin to win”.

This is absolutely not right, nor for the thief to be called “thief” and not “assassin”, neither for our enemies when they get feared for 3 secs ( lol, not even the necro with full fear traits and necro runes has so much fear in his arsenal) or daze-locked for 4 secs ( by simply clicking a button against a guardian).

Stop being kids and try to understand the game a little better, because Steal is nothing else than a gimmick.

Coeurmasque.4326:

Sword/Dagger needs people to stand up for what it is. In my opinion, it’s what thief should feel like.
Not your Spamtastic-Imatryhardtoburstyou-2222/3333.
What’s wrong with removing 1 boon everytime you use it? Many professions rely on their boons to bring an edge to the fight, why not remove that edge? Furthermore, you called it our main attack, it isn’t. Traited correctly, it allows us to dodge practically infinitely.

Point is that this skill will almost never land, unless your opponent is not paying attention/ completely dumb.

It’s slow and predictable, and auto-facing makes it impossible to give you positioning advantage.

It’s simply bad in every aspect. I NEVER use it, there’s no actual reason since the C&D+ tactical strike combo is better in every aspect.

Zunhar.4079:

To the OP: Isn’t your first post just a copy-paste from GW2 Guru that you made a few days before launch? If so, has nothing changed in your opinions?

Absolutely.

The thief is an amazingly fun class to play. But there’re issues.

Other classes have tons of great utility skills, while the thief is quite the only one needing extensive trait investment to make our ( for istance) venom worthy.

Our traps are clunky, and there’s no place for them IN EVERY tournament build ( guess why).

Blinding power is the worse version of shadow refuge.

Some signets are totally underwhelming/imba like SoS or SoA.

Steal is OP when traited, useless ( aside the OP stolen skill: gimmicky things are gimmicky).

There are tons of issue with this class.

Simply because we can perform well ( using always the same U-skills, guess why), it doesn’t mean the class is fine.

Tulisin.6945:

I don’t understand the hate that sword/dagger gets.

The problem is that most people tend to consider a 1v1 scenario where S/D can’t truly shine while it is easily our best weapon setup in multi-target situations. Sword/Dagger has to be built differently than other weapons and doesn’t lend itself well to just jumping over from, say, D/D and giving it a go.

Stop trying to force every weapon set into a template and consider them as a whole and you’ll appreciate sword/dagger for the amount of control and offensive strength it has.

S/D is actually the best duelist set. The issue with it is that FS is totally worthless.
Nothing else.

You’re making us tragicmakers, while FS HAS issues, and our whinings are totally justified.

IDarko.4709:

It’s cool that you want that but please try to think about the pvp’ers aswell. I hate most of the skills that place me somewhere. I mean, i know what they do so i can take certain steps to land where i want but it’s stupid and requires less skill. I hope they remove this skill. I love the idea of s/d. I love all of the skills eccept Flanking Strike. I really hope they replace it and make it a viable weaponset.

Totally agree. S/D is the perfect high skill set for the thief, the most difficult and rewarding playstyle, if you know how to play.

But FS is totally worthless in this set, making Inf strike + C&D the only real reason to use this set.

It’s horrible from a PvP perspective.

Dagins.5163:

It’s not like devs aren’t playing this game. If Flanking Strike was designed to be hard to land in PvP, it is meant to be. By using some tactic, you can improve this moves effectiveness by a mile. Another good example is using warrior’s Hundred Blades with Bull’s Charge. This is perfectly clear for me, and I will keep using FS in PvP as a viable move, knowing its pros and cons.

Only because YOU are using it, it doesn’t mean the skill doesn’t have issues.
And there’re tons of clunky things about thief (and other classes): saying “the devs made it on purpose” is uncostructive.
If a thing doesn’t work, it must be addressed.

As things stand now, FS is unnecessarily hard to land, slow, predictable, and can be easy used AGAINST you, due to its predictability. Even more, since in this game there’s a thing called “autofacing” that automatically counters every effort you put to use this skill.

FS is bad, and needs some help.