Guild Wars 2

Cynz.9437:

it is not just missed bs, even if you hit empty air with BS you get revealed

i really wish they would at least post it on patch notes~
oh and assisted rocket triggers of anything, has 10sec CD and hits like truck, because fire/air procs weren’t enough~

definitely not buying xpac, eff this crap, back to league

I guess it’s time to get gud

Kageseigi.2150:

Gabriell.4856:

How do you know thief doesn’t desires vamp runes? Because you say so?

No, I’m saying that no thief wants to get so low on health that the invulnerability procs. Neither do they want to lose ALL abilities except running away. It’s like an airbag in your car. It CAN save your bacon, but nobody wants it to be necessary. Thieves take it because they know that they’re so squishy, they’ll probably need it… even with stealth.

Gabriell.4856:

It is highly desireable because the vamp rune proc will interrupt any skill so when last refuge proc it prevent unintended reveal.

I don’t use Vamp runes, but according to recent patch notes, Last Refuge isn’t supposed to proc with them. Whether or not it does, I do not know.

Gabriell.4856:

How do you counter invul, stealth, and cleanse? You just can’t.

Remember, a thief can’t do anything while in Mist Form either… just try to run far enough away to escape oncoming doom. It procs without a moment’s notice. It is involuntary. Purely defensive and passive. It’s not as though a thief can see a powerful attack coming and go invulnerable. Other professions can.

Stealth is what allows thieves to survive. If used wisely, it can do so very well. But stealth is still only concealment, it isn’t cover… at least, not until tomorrow. Then it’s partial cover for Shadow Arts users.

Rofl thief is not squishy at all, it’s the most forgiving class in the meta right now and will be even more after patch.

What discerns a bad thief from a good thief is the capability to apply pressure or not, surely not the survivability.

A good thief can LITERALLY never die even when focused by 3 people.

Lordrosicky.5813:

They will maintain might easily. I think the main problem with cele is the stat differential. Before they changed cele to just give way more stats it wasnt a problem.

True they lose boon duration but so does everyone. It effects all specs equally more or less.

Might will be easy to come by as usual. Look at engineers with blast finishers everywhere. I really dont think warrior will have a problem maintaining high amounts of might. And to think they actually buffed the amulet in terms of the stats given. That is mind boggling. I mean sure, if they think cele will be nerfed in other ways then keep the stat percentage advantage the same. But dont buff the stat differential. Cele needs nerfs after all. And we thought they were getting it. It was a significant reason people who like to play condition or support (bunker guardians for example) specs were looking forward to the patch. Because these hybrids wouldnt be forcing them out anymore.

Another thing – hybrid specs benefit the most from the vulnerability change as they can make use of both sides of this condition. Secondly, there are more traits and better traits than before. That means that even classes like necro (which previously couldnt make use of the healing power stat) can make use of it now. On warrior, ele and engi they can push into those traits to make use of all the stats. Which makes them even stronger.

It all boils down to runes and sigils honestly.

If they nerf might runes, keeping 15 might stacks all time will be like impossible, 15 will mostly be the peak ( on self at least, in group fights it’s stilla achievable).

Without air/fire, builds will do way less damage even with stats buff and will prolly need offensive traits.

I’m actually thinking of coming back to thief to play crit strike S/P if they nerf sigils and runes, cuz it may became skill based again.

We’ll see.

zber.4980:

“Celestial amulet currently gives +438 of every stat in PVP, or 3066 total.

We’re losing 1400 total stats from trait lines (for the sake of argument I’m ignoring condition duration / boon duration).

So we’re losing 45.7% of our total stats, excluding gear. Assuming the Celstial amulet is buffed to equal exactly the amount of stats lost, that means PVP Celestial should add +638 of every stat, minus 10%, equals +574 of every stat on the final PVP Celestial amulet after these changes, or +136 compared to current amulet.

However, character stats are also being raised to baseline 1000 instead of 926, or +74 to power/precision/toughness/vitality, so 296 extra stats total.

So, theoretically

Celestial Rifle Engineer meta build (6/0/0/4/4)

will lose 300 power and gain 210 back for a total of -90 power or -9% power damage nerf

will gain 136 condition damage or +12% condition damage buff

will lose 200 ferocity and gain back 136 for a total of -4% critical damage nerf

will gain 210 precision or +10% crit chance

This means an overall total gain of +18% damage from critical hits over time (less power, less ferocity, more precision), or net +9% buff to power damage total

will lose 200 toughness and gain 210 back for a total of +10 toughness

will lose 200 vitality and gain 210 back for a total of +10 vitality

will lose 200 healing power and gain 136 back for a total of -64 healing power

TL;DR assuming Arenanet balance Celestial amulet to account for 100% of the stats lost due to trait changes, for Engineers at least this Celestial nerf combined with HOT changes is technically a massive buff.

EDIT: Something I should mention just incase people get mad about this “buff”, remember that all the other amulets are being buffed in exactly the same way. For example, the Thief D/P Panic Strike meta build will lose 300 power but gain 622 in return (!) for a total of +322 power (and they lose basically 0% survivability since they don’t spec into vitality/toughness). Notice that Celestial Engineer survivability remains approximately the same while Thief DPS will be buffed by something like 30% (or more).

Pure DPS amulets are getting a lot more DPS, pure bunker amulets are getting a lot more survivability. In theory. This is still an overall nerf to Engineer effectiveness.

Again, this is all complete theory, and it depends on how Arenanet is going to balance the loss of condition/boon duration."

https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/33txr5/cele_amulet_will_receive_a_10_overall_stat_nerf/cqoe1gx

Engi loses both condi duration AND boon duration altough engi never used might stacking.

The nerf will be way greater to build like shoutbow and cele ele, since they needed might stacking to keep the pressure.

Tbh it depends way more on sigils runes, if they will be nerfed prolly hybrid builds will be deleted unless u go carrion or rampager ( power condi would both reach the cap).

Rampager will be uber strong on certain builds ( like necs and engi) but survivability will be bad like it should.

I don’t really see celestial buff as a problem, it will prolly suck with new scaling and no condi/boon duration, unless they keep 10-15 might stacks costantly ( kinda hard with no boon duration).

Again it all breaks down to sigils and runes.

That’s what we all hope will be nerfed into the ground.

Game may became skill based again FOR REAL.

Toxsa.2701:

Thief is among the top 3 most buffed classes…
Be ready of incoming nerf, not buff.

Stealth traits ( and stealth overall) should be nerfed inti the ground.

preparedness needs to become baseline.

One doesn’t exclude the other.

Cynz.9437:

Sunflowers.1729:

Hendrix.9763:

Taking stealth away from the Thief would be like taking an Elementalist’s water trait line. The class would simply be broken without it. It serves as the most important aspect of a Thief’s defensive play along with their mobility from the various shadowsteps they have.

Actually the change is more like this:
-Removing poison’s healing reduction to healing, so there is no actual way to counter it.
-Make healing able to be spammed every 3-4 seconds
-Give one class in particular a 100% healing reduction for 8 seconds, on an automatic proc. That’s not letting people play against it, the person applying the healing reduction doesn’t have to do anything at all except attack.

Being able to damage through stealth isn’t a counter, that’s like saying damage is a counter to healing :/. OP has a valid point but lots of people are just strawmanning it.

does thief have high access to protection or multiple heals?

here is the thing: if they nerf stealth even more they will just have to buff thieves otherwise… the way i see it, thieves would just turn into warriors wearing leather armor and using dagger instead of GS….

given same skill level, thieves already can’t kill most of popular classes/builds by themself; stacking thieves just increases chances of los exponentially…. sure let’s nerf the class, let’s add more counters…. because we certanly need another class that is not used in meta and top pvp…. i mean cmon, ppl still dont run celestial trio exclusively , gotta fix it!

I’m all for buffs to thieves as long as they don’t buff lame things.

S/D acro trickery was not skillfull at all, perma dodging is lame and current feline grace/vigor nerf is 100% well done.

They skyrocket buffed stealth tho, not caring at all about how passive thief game play will became ( camp stealth all day while u: gain more ini, gain health, receive less damage, clear condies SO GUD SO SKILLFULL) and without caring about team PvP where team stealth camping and stealth openers are a big problem, something about top tier players have been complaining since start, with ZERO counterplay available.

It’s guessing game and nothing more.

thieves needs buffs in certains areas, but it needs the nerfhammer on other aspects whose arr lame, not fun to play against and with zero counterplay availablr aside some brutal hard counters with 0 sense (like lock on or sic em).

Dear anet,

would just like to point out that thieves pick up this trait from day 1 and left it just for a while when acro ini regen traits were op.

since S/D has been nerfed into the ground since those times, and many proffs are getting tons of baseline stuff, could u consider giving thieves prepaeedness as baseline ?

Now that steal cd has been reduced, I really believe a lot of us would leave trickery behind to play more damage (and skill oriented ) builds without the need to pick more op traits ( coff coff sleight of hand coff coff).

Btw, acro sux when compared to other traitlines.

btw, nerf stealth and stealth traits.

and sigils and runes.

kappa thx bye

Jesiah.2457:

I wonder if OP has read any of the incoming class changes or is just a typical lrn2player who comes to the forums crying about how they can’t beat someone who uses stealth?

My first suggestion, read Engi changes and then roll an engi with lock on. Completely catered to cryhards such as yourself, OP. The most rewarded passive gameplay towards stealth I’ve seen!

6 seconds of reveal and 10 stacks of vulnerability for simply hitting someone who’s in stealth on a stupidly low ICD! This I find amusing (or less sarcastically, disgusting) because it’s yet again another form of passive gameplay which is rewarded more than active gameplay.

#Anet’Esports’

That’s exactly what I was meaning.

Lock on trait is stupid, this is not counterplay (there’s still none, since counterplay means everyone can do something about it with, not some specific professions only), it is a hard counter which is equally bad to stealth.

Stealth duration for thieves is too long and it’s a fact, especially now that they’re emcouraged camping stealth (more ini, health regen, damage reduction, condi cleanse, ALL PASSIVELY), and from a team point it favours stealth team openers which are terrible design with no counterplay involved for the opponent.

This game needs serious stealth counterplay, not some stupid trait for the blessed kids (engies) that totally shuts down a whole (altough broken) mechanic.

since stealth in thia game is a serious problem, nerfing duration and giving revelead when stealth ends regardless of hitting something is the best way to fix this stuff.

Tbh I’m kinda baffled by thief changes.

anet nerfed to the ground (rightfully) S/D, which has became a lot more skilfull than old S/D ( tho steal is still TOO STRONG)

Without addressing the biggest offender in thief kitten nal, BUT EVEN BUFFING IT:

STEALTH

Stealth has been a problem since start, teams started camping stealth with thieves and instagibbing people with stealth openers as soon as they discovered the trick, even more now thief has way more damage/sustain thx to sigils and runes (whose should be removed asap anyway, terrible design).

The biggest buff for thief right now will be being able to buils for things that on the old system would have meant stats loss (vit, healing power, condi damage).

Full zerk stat + utility from traitlines.

current meta build (panic strike) will became godmode.

not only camping stealth for 10+ secs is uber lame, but also leads to thw boring game play we see every kittening tournament or esl cups: move with thief, spam blast finishers on BP, play the guessing game till someone insta dies.

stealth has ZERO counterplay right now aside some silly hard counter with 0 practical sense (new lock in trait for engi) or use (sic em for rangers).

since it’s clear u can’t think of proper counterplay for stealth, it’s time to AT LEAST reduce stealth capping to something like 6 secs and add REVEAL as soon as u exit stealth, hit or not

that way stealth will be used as a reposition tool (like it was meant to be and like it was when game launched), not as a way to avoid any source of damage till important cds come back, or (way worse) as a way to instagib people with your team with 0 skill/counteplay involved.

thx for reading, kappabye

Exedore.6320:

I’m all for toning down or removing the prominence of sigil procs. However, it wouldn’t really address the issues with the trait overhaul. Ridiculous proc traits like Incendiary Powder and Chill of Death still exist, largely unchanged from the old system.

Without air/fire, chill of death would never instakill people.

without geo-doom, ip is just a very strong trait u can counter with cleanses.

Those traits have been there for ages and nobody really complained that much.

sigils and runes on the other side…

People is freaking out cuz “omagawd look dem buffs woot r u doin plz” and some professions INDEED seem broken and super lame (panic strike/shaodw arts thief, mesmer and guard insta killing people with super strong traits meshed in one or baseline, ranger uber buffed etc etc).

Tbh this happens because we’ve current game mindset, a game where fire/air proc basically every attack you receive and are ALWAYS on top on damage log along with burning

a game where hydro- leech swap deals 3k damage, sometimes 4k on war with might stavks

a game where geo-doom deals so much damage that it’s basically shoutbow best source od damage along with burn spam and fire aura

a game where we’re used to see the “leech” icon everywhere every 15 because everyone and their moma are running vamp runes.

think for a moment what would happen if nothing of this existed anymore.

suddenly professions buffs would be right, suddenly the gane feels a lot more balanced than it seems from patch notes.

this is both an insight for players panicking and devs, especially if the latter didn’t remove sigils and runes for real.

Elitist.8701:

Hey guys, this is Teef Teef Teef Teef, former best multiclass NA.

I know I’ve said that I’ve quit and all but I’ve still stuck around, trolling dueling arenas and daily rooms, because that’s the only thing I find fun anymore in this game.

This time though, after seeing what Anet did with HoT, first I didn’t really understand what happened. But then I looked at it again and realized I got shafted up the kitten. 50 bucks for an absolute trash PvP mode and a new class. WTF???

Then today I looked at the specialization notes. I read them a few times, basically all I saw was that thief became next level overpowered while necro got destroyed. They next-level power creeped with the specs, and the thing is, thief will hardcounter necro sooooo hard that it will literally be unplayable. Even if they fix it, I KNOW Anet will take months and months and months to fix Thief, and I know necro will NEVER get the buffs it deserves. This isn’t just another of my thief whine threads, it just amazes me how bad they actually are at balancing, and also all the random unnecessary crap they put in the expansion just for the sake of baiting people into buying it thinking its “new”.

Anet has disgusted me for a while now in the way they ignore their current customers in favor of trying to get new customers. They’ve also driven me away with the absolute lack of anything for PvP in forever. The last update we’ve had was the trash update where they removed soloQ and added a bunch of bullkitten UI updates saying it was new and “improved”. Anet wants nothing but money from new players. There’s nothing wrong with getting money, that’s what every company does, but Anet exploits our passiveness and ignores us veterans.

Basically I’m done. I know this thread will attract a bunch of fanboys and trolls saying “ok then leave”. But really, I encourage you all to actually look at the game for what it is. If you really look at it, you’ll see that everything I’ve just said is true. Guild Wars 2 is dying, there are signs of it everywhere. HoT is Anets last attempt to get free money from you guys before abandoning this game. Don’t fall for it.

I’m baffled by those changes too

What they did is absolute nonsense.

It will get boring in a month or two, even before HoT even releases ( patch is coming in a week ya know).

The thing that mostly shocked me is what they did to thief, it’s like they’re playing another game and/or they totally don’t care about the impact it will have on it.

It’s sad really

ImdA.4701:

Tbh, thief players will forever ardently defend Withdraw, as I do with CC, which is normal tho.

I consider myself still a thief player, yet i would say no stealth thief would run withdraw if we didn’t have condi remove in stealth and insta-cast stealth skill.

I tried going crit strike D/P again, without HiS it dies from random burning + few hits.

Gud times they were, skill based thief is just a shade in the past.

glock.6590:

style.6173:

MadVisions.4529:

<i got easy 1k++hrs on thief and 1400+ matches on the new system />

lets face it: D/P did force the rest of the builds out of the meta already. And now its gonna be more silly than ever.

For someone who says they have so much thief experience, you sure don’t know what you are talking about. D/P didn’t force the rest of the builds out of the meta. The nerf to precasting flanking strike hurt S/D. The initiative increase on pistol whip hurt S/P.

D/P was always better. The only reason S/D was meta after LS nerf is because of Sizer winning the ToL with it.

S/D would still have more overall damage in a teamfight if it had better sustain vs cele condi spam.

S/D was better than D/P cuz it had more sustain aka more overall damage pressure in a teamfight without going into sbow.

Problem is currently D/P has even better sustain both vs power ( stealth, blind, leech) AND condi ( condi remove in stealth), adding even Impro and Panic strike to the mix.

It’s a joke build which made thief totally forgiving and brainded and it’s becoming even more of a joke in a week thx to aNet " LOLOLOLOL I DON’T KNOW WHAT I’M DOING" patch.

Sunfish.5970:

Mrbig.8019:

Sunfish.5970:

Roy Chronomancer himself stated that they were implementing the changes to movement skills being unaffected by movement impairing conditions because it removes counter-play and was hard to deal with the super speed nonsense.

Personally I liked what super speed did to movement skills. It brought unexpected game play and made some things unpredictable, but if you guys don’t like the functionality of that, that’s fine.
But mainly because people could get to places they shouldn’t have been able to get to? So the fact that super speed with movement skills might cause anet some problems in the new upcoming maps or whatever, you’ve decided to bring upon this movement skill change?……..ok. :|

My suggestion is to just remove super speed’s effect on skills, while keeping cripple/chill/swiftness the same. The whole reason why chill and cripple were so deadly was because it meant people couldn’t get away. But with this change, you’ll see thieves "Heartseeker"ing their way to safety, and basically any other class with a low cooldown movement ability.

Removing counterplay is never a good thing. Reconsiderrrr

Tbh as a former thief main, i can clearly say this is a clear nerf to mobility, and if u focus a little you’ll notice that too by just seeing thief patch notes

• Disabling Shot: Movement speed adjustments no longer affect the intended travel distance.
• Flanking Strike: Movement speed adjustments no longer affect the intended travel distance.
• Heartseeker: Movement speed adjustments no longer affect the intended travel distance.
• Withdraw: Movement speed adjustments no longer affect the intended travel distance.

Focus

Focus

U got it

Kappa.

Thief has very high swiftness uptime, all those skills travel way more than intended.

Flanking strike and withdraw on swiftness are a plain joke, they travel so far it’s not even funny.

Should i even mention warrior rush and whirlwind ?

After some rage moment, i clearly see this is a good change.

I know its a nerf to all movement skills in general, which is why I put 1 example of a spammable movement ability. Nothing against thieves personally.

I understand swiftness was basically super easy for almost anyone to achieve with just pack runes or just team wide buffs. If anything, lower the effects of swiftness on movement abilities; but still have it so it can affect them by like 10% or something. The important one is allowing chill and cripple to affect movement abilities, or else its just stupid.

Meh i believe it will be way better this way fot those professions relying on kiting than it was before.

basically if u run impairment effects there’s NO WAY right now they can close the gap to u as long as u have swiftness yourself, unless they port to u.

It’s going to be fine, don’t panic.

Quadox.7834:

Engi and teef and possibly ele

How can u not say mes yanim, mes gonna become a joke lol

Mes-guard-thief meta inc where everything instadies

Sunfish.5970:

Roy Chronomancer himself stated that they were implementing the changes to movement skills being unaffected by movement impairing conditions because it removes counter-play and was hard to deal with the super speed nonsense.

Personally I liked what super speed did to movement skills. It brought unexpected game play and made some things unpredictable, but if you guys don’t like the functionality of that, that’s fine.
But mainly because people could get to places they shouldn’t have been able to get to? So the fact that super speed with movement skills might cause anet some problems in the new upcoming maps or whatever, you’ve decided to bring upon this movement skill change?……..ok. :|

My suggestion is to just remove super speed’s effect on skills, while keeping cripple/chill/swiftness the same. The whole reason why chill and cripple were so deadly was because it meant people couldn’t get away. But with this change, you’ll see thieves "Heartseeker"ing their way to safety, and basically any other class with a low cooldown movement ability.

Removing counterplay is never a good thing. Reconsiderrrr

Tbh as a former thief main, i can clearly say this is a clear nerf to mobility, and if u focus a little you’ll notice that too by just seeing thief patch notes

• Disabling Shot: Movement speed adjustments no longer affect the intended travel distance.
• Flanking Strike: Movement speed adjustments no longer affect the intended travel distance.
• Heartseeker: Movement speed adjustments no longer affect the intended travel distance.
• Withdraw: Movement speed adjustments no longer affect the intended travel distance.

Focus

Focus

U got it

Kappa.

Thief has very high swiftness uptime, all those skills travel way more than intended.

Flanking strike and withdraw on swiftness are a plain joke, they travel so far it’s not even funny.

Should i even mention warrior rush and whirlwind ?

After some rage moment, i clearly see this is a good change.

StickerHappy.8052:

Hi teef, most if not all thieves here does not play High tier pvp, or even ESLs, or Academy gaming, you can’t simply make them understand what you’re saying SO, you wouldn’t get any constructive replies here. Its like all thief threads here, for some reason all thief replies you will be getting are the raging types.

I guess we really need player MMR right when someone posts.

Flaming is still here woudln’t really change much, at least we could know who does have a clue and who simply doesn’t.

tyresias.2306:

Omocha.4931:

I’d say he’s right! Thieves are OP! Lowest HP pool in the game and shabby condi removal, quite a hard choice between survivability and burst overall, no invulnerability, stability, summons or decent condi damage. No spammable skills due to initiative restrictions, but yes! OP! Remove the stealth and the half-broken shadowsteps, pl0x! And while at it, remove their weapons too! Give them a broom!

It’s on the same note with “Ranger OP! 1500 Rapid Shot happy wefs!” and “Necro OP! Remove Death Shroud and Lich Form pl0x!”. How about remove the attunements from eles too?! Make each weapon only give 1 att or 2. And give mesmers only 1 clone, remove the virtues and Elite Focus from guardians and maybe the stances from warriors. You might as well, take the grenades and elixirs away from engineers! Hell! Even better! Give every class a broom as the only weapon!

I get what you’re doing… It’s not funny. But I get it.
Although blind and fury-filled threads are not the best way to begin a discussion, it not a coincidence that so many threads for the thief exist nowadays. What the OP is trying unsuccessfully to do is to highlight the dominance of a specific class in the PvP environment. I do think that everyone kittenpects himself and does some basic pvp knows this to be true. And that’s nothing new.

The difference between the classes you mentioned and the thief is that none of those are represented in top tier pvp. Very very few exceptions. Don’t take this as patronizing, but ranger’s 1500 range and ‘’hurr durr second HP bar necroes’’ is not even close to the problem the thief is creating. Pushing basically every other possible zerk build out, and directly counter them without much retaliation. I am not saying rangers mesmers etc. cannot do the same role as the thief, it’s just that the thief outclass them and many others by a large margin.

Aside pushing all other zerk specs out from the meta, those problems thief is creating are way worse.

1. It forces point camping, cuz stealth and superior mobility ( this gives the thief UNMATCHED map control that alone forces meta into a certain way).

2. surv-damage/utility ratio is WAY WAY off.
D/P panic strike is basically immune to both damage ( stealth, teleports, blinds) and conditions ( condi remove in stealth + ridicolous stealth uptime thx to blinding powder, initiative latest buff and impro procs).

Inb4 " IMMUNE TO DAMAGE ROFL L2P";

Good panic strike thieves will never die unless out of cds. If a thief is out of CDs, he’s bad.

The only thing capable to kill a thief is another thief. This at high level play.

If you"next poster" disagree then you are so below that level that u can’t even imagine what a capable thief can do.

If so, don’t even reply to me, i won’t bother replying again.

Cele needs to be nerfed hard.

Thief needs to be nerfed harder ( especially air/fire and runes).

Thief was balanced only when played on crit strikes, current thief is simply a joke and should be gutted.

Emi.4152:

I think the truth is closer to:
meta thieves are average at 1 v 1, near the bottom in teamfights, and are truly only still in the meta because of their mobility. If another class could move as well as thieves (whether by nerfing thief moblity or buffing mobility for another class), thieves would be out of the meta instantly. Burst is decent, DPS over time is underwhelming, on point survivability is non-existent. Can not fight outnumbered and should not fight even numbers.

Panic strike thief is like the strongest 1vs1 build in this meta.

If u give a thief enough time it will even kill almost all cele builds aside shoutbow ( debatable).

I’m seriously questioning the skill level of the average poster in these forums, altough it’s not really that much about playing the game but mostly about knowing it.

Stop

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Coulter.2315:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

ens.9854:

On crit sigils aren’t random at all that’s the problem. They never miss by design unlike doom/leeching (much like incendiary powder, chill of death, and panic strike) giving them 0 counter-play. They are just BIS for dps in pvp.

If you play a build that they actually are random (soldier) they simply aren’t worth slotting at all because the payoff when they do proc isn’t worth it.

I might be confused.

Isnt

(crit) -> (Sigil doesnt proc) -> (normal crit dps) = considered a miss by design?

because as long as that happens its like you dont have sigils on.

I can guarantee my sigil of doom will hit if I have a stun skill, count dodges, and/or have burned opponents evades.

You’re thinking of it the wrong way, with other skills a “Miss” puts the skill on CD meaning it CANNOT hit for the next Xsecs, this is not how proc sigils work.

True. Hmm. so should fire and air work like that? Show a little token on the hotbar saying (I have fire proc lol) and if it misses, put it on CD?

Could be nice. If those tokens come up at the same time as their normal sigil CD’s though, you’d just be guaranteeing damage again.

Even if they had some visual it wouldn make them counterable but still broken.

it’s still free added damage, and the proof is how strong geo-doom /hydro-leech are ( although most of it is due to the damage part of those sigils, proccing all the kitten).

Game would be way better with no runes and sigila at all, mostly cuz they’re way too strong ans broken.

FlawlezZ.3178:

thief is not op and stealth is not op. you can’t even cap and do damage while being stealthed.

This is a team game brah.

there’re other proffs built to play the “stay on point” game, doesn’t make thief any less op.

For the first year mesmer was like the most op kitten till they nerfed portal and time warp, tho it sucked at “capping the point”.

Guess why brah

TheBlackLeech.9360:

I am happy to see you you standing up for what you believe in, OP.

I’ve made a thread discussing stealth discussing a potential way to bring balance to the mechanic, without hurting anyone or anything in any way.

…and still there is a huge uproar from thieves everywhere who rely on their stealth cushion to play pvp.

Just like in lord of the rings, you can’t part the guy from his invisibility ring, or else he gets all crazy and starts yelling my precious and kitten.

Thieves are the same way with stealth.

They get legitimately scared, because they are afraid of no longer being functional.

The defense aspects of stealth are in need of some balance…. not every class can retreat from a fight when they get in over their head without sacrificing some damage potential.

A warrior for example would need to have a different weapon set on if he wanted to have even remotely as much mobility and escape capability, and he would be sacrifing most of his damage potential in doing so.

All in all, I think your suggested nerfs are somewhat unwarranted, and some of what you have suggested will break stealth and make it unusable.

Since thieves pretty much rely on it, you are talking about breaking an entire profession.

While I do agree stealth is in need of some minor tweaks to tone down its defensive capabilities, I think you are trying to give someone a haircut with a flamethrower here.

Ye i agree with u.

thief is lame, OP and all but those fixes proposed by op won’t even remotrly fix its lameness neither its broken aspects tpvp wise.

the solution is to remove stealth camping

Make stealth no longer applicable after the first application (if u use HS over a blind field 3 times and get 5 secs of stealth, u get revealed right at the end of it, so u can’t stavk stealth again if u fail your opening)

Reveal after stealth application regardless if u hit or not.

Stealth capped at 5 secs.

now stealth is balanced, maybe doesn’t have obvious counterplay options but at least it’s not broken

evilapprentice.6379:

Supreme.3164:

Terrorsquad.2349:

Laraley.7695:

Terrorsquad.2349:

If, after trying that, you’re still at a loss for how to counter stealth, it’s possible that GW2 is too complex a game for you, and you might be better served playing something simpler and more straightforward.

This. I can really not believe how ppl can call stealth OP or even need more counterplay to it (inside PvP Conquest).. I’ve never had any probs vs teams with stealth setups when playing a non-stealth class/build, as I play mostly thief myself. So I know how they work and how they CAN rotate if they’re decent. Stealth really needs no counterplay.

As said before, I would agree to a max stealth cap but that’s all. Although, I do think thieves should get something small in return for that.

Well, I would disagree here. Stealth does need a counterplay, but most people do not realize that it already has a counterplay.

I said it multiple times in my other comments: Stealth has more counterplay than block has. What I tried to say for 10 times in this thread is that it doesnt need more counterplay than it already has. I phrased my last sentence you quoted wrong, just a typo

Spamming aoe in the last location you saw the thief is a strategy that works only against freshly made thieves..and not even in most case; so i really wonder about what counterplay you’re referring to

… If you think spamming aoe in the last place you saw the thief is the only counter play to stealth no wonder you are having so much trouble countering it.

If you aren’t willing to put the effort in to learn how to counter stealth, you don’t deserve it. Complaining on the forums until it’s handed to you on a silver platter is a much worse tactic then just learning to play.

As I’ve already said, perhaps GW2 is too complex a game for you.

Stealth has no counter aside random dodging.

That’s why people run thieves in the first place, cuz stealth openers.

Gw2 pvp is “insta down people from stealth” till people realized how strong it is, just look at those Esl games ( where people are not sucky enough to bring 5 celes cuz they’re not even able to push 3 buttons in a row after a stealth stacking), or maybe get better and go play vs such teams.

But please go on defending something that even the best players of this game are complaining about since headstart, do it pls.

Thief nerf request have reached next level solely cuz Panic strike thief is so lame it can’t be beared anymore.

More on topic, the real issue is that D/P is such a strong set that can’t be paired with strong sustain ( given by condi cleanse in stealth and vamp runes invuln+ leech) without losing huge part of its damage.

Air/fire + leech procs give panic strike thief the damage it would lack by going into DA + SA instead of CS

The result is the most OP build this game has ever seen.

Stop complaining about a thief not being able to 1vs1 a cele proff ( something that is not even true if u think of a fight without time constrainsts), thief is not even meant to 1vs1 things.

Thief is no more about skill, it’s just about camping stealth till u get things back on CD, and most of these things are procs ( leeches, panic strike, air/fire, steal, withdraw).

Lame

Lame

Lame

Signed

Ex-thief main from times when u weren’t even planned by your parents.

Jekkt.6045:

Cynz.9437:

people complain about stealth in pvp? wat?

thief went to reset? good… you got point, enjoy your match points~

also i love how people cry “omg thief can reset”…. and somehow forget to mention that the moment thief goes ooc their target is also ooc and gets to heal up…

i think it is hilarious to say that thief doesn’t get punished for failed attack… if anything thieves get punished the most for single mistake in game atm….

you don’t reset as a thief. you sit in stealth until crucial skills are off cooldown, like steal or withdraw, and then you go at it again. or you sit out invul skills in stealth, another gimmick that renders other classes’ defensive skills useless. thieves don’t get punished for single mistakes at all. thieves have on demand teleports that can save their kitten s in most situations and make cc useless if you don’t force the 2 stunbreaks before.

thief is also the only class in the game that is unkiteable as they have teleports that are not tied to cooldowns while other classes’ teleports are on a 30-40s cooldown. so if a thief wants to chase you he will do so and you will not get away most of the time.

the only classes that can face a thief are celestial classes that bring self sustain and a mix of direct damage and condition attrition or guardians because they have the needed aoe damage with good sustain and blocks, this will change though as soon as thieves will be able to run 3 traitlines, in fact thieves with vampire runes can already kill guardians because mist form will save them when they eat a mighty blow combo or get trapped by the ring.

the thief’s class design is broken and to fix it they would have to overhaul the whole class which is obviously not gonna happen.

they learned their lesson with energy ressource or why else do revenants have actual cooldowns on their skills + the energy cost.

AMEN

I would like to point out that simply cuz stronghold could shift the focus from killing players to killing objectives that i no way devs should forget about all the kittenty lameness sigils and runes are bringing to the game.

Just a reminder.

Tyreal.5230:

Coulter.2315:

Tyreal.5230:

That’s why it’s called burst.

I just want everyone to read over and over this sentence was in reply to Auto Attack damage. That is all.

That’s fine if you want to quote only a portion of what I said but instead of complaining you should learn how to better yourself and come up with a way to deal with things that are difficult.

It’s disgusting that this is what GW2’s pvp has degraded into. I see more ‘OP Plz Nerf’ threads than ‘Advice Plz’ threads.

People always take it the wrong way instead of it’s literal meaning but I guess I’ll say it anyway. L2P

It’s way more astounishing to see people like u claiming they know anything.

Should we start the L2P talk ?

In the old leaderboard i’ve always been top 100 in both solo q and team q, same for the poster you quoted.

I can’t even find u in team q while your best placement was “536” in NA solo q.

Guess who should learn to play.

Back on topic, there’s no way to avoid procs aside “neve being hit”, something obviously not possible.

Time to nerf them all.

So what about a red post about the matter ?

it’s not like noone is complaining about this, aight.

Darksteel.8412:

Akikaze.1307:

Darksteel.8412:

the rng of some rune and sigils are amazing…learn to think ahead in creating builds instead of have the game nerved to nothingness, sick of people crying dumbing the game down…srsly

It is literally amazing, so amazing that I got one-shotted from 80% hp from an necromancer pressing 1 today. Totally required skills, not dumb luck right?

someone did mention something about dodgerolling

Ye cuz if u dodge that attack, sigils won’t absolutely proc on next one.

100% confirmed.

kappa.

Darksteel.8412:

the rng of some rune and sigils are amazing…learn to think ahead in creating builds instead of have the game nerved to nothingness, sick of people crying dumbing the game down…srsly

gotta learn dodging dem unavoidable procs, sorri cuz i bad.

kappa

Trevor Boyer.6524:

There we go
Now they’re talking about the real problem
Fire/Air dealing too much damage in general

Even if they dealt 400 damage each, it’s still added damage that shouldn’t be there.

moreover air fire are just a small part, every rune/sigil used currently i uettrly broken ( hello vamp runes)

Trevor Boyer.6524:

The biggest issue being complained about is the RNG of Fire/Air procs. They are saying that “we don’t know when it’s going to happen so there is no counter-play” and _"It is taking control away from us".

Nop.

The point is that a 200 damage fart can become a 3k ( air fire), 4 k ( air fire leech) or several thousands damage hit or even worse ( air-fire-leech-hammer chill/chill of death/panic strike) and so on.

Phaeton.9582:

On a broader level I’m not a fan of the way the game has been balanced the past year.

It’s more ‘balanced’ per say than ever, however lightning/air procs have vanillafied glass cannons, with doom/geo removing any need for condition-focused weapons. Combine this with a celestial amulet and hybrid or standardized burst is the only way to play the game now. And both are heavily reliant on passive mechanics.

Just my two cents. There’s too much noise on the forums for a considered discussion to impact on game development IMO anyhow.. oh well…

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/Nerf-Runes-Sigils-Say-NO-to-RNG-1/first#post5101871

Jelle.2807:

Menzies The Heretic.3415:

Rng = bad (can’t be avoided)
Prediction = good (can be avoided)

Proposed changes:

Sigil of Fire – your attacks deal additional 5…17…20 fire damage while your enemy is burning.
Sigil of Air – your attacks deal additional 5…17…20 lighting damage while your enemy is stunned or dazed.
Sigil of Earth – your attacks deal additional 5…17…20 earth damage while your enemy is bleeding.
Sigil of Water – your attacks deal additional 5…17…20 frost damage while your enemy is chilled.

Just chiming in to say I agree this is what sigils should have been. Situational effects that enhance builds, not ones that just tack extra power on it. In the case of fire/air, way too much power.

QFT

Menzies The Heretic.3415:

Rng = bad (can’t be avoided)
Prediction = good (can be avoided)

Proposed changes:

Sigil of Fire – your attacks deal additional 5…17…20 fire damage while your enemy is burning.
Sigil of Air – your attacks deal additional 5…17…20 lighting damage while your enemy is stunned or dazed.
Sigil of Earth – your attacks deal additional 5…17…20 earth damage while your enemy is bleeding.
Sigil of Water – your attacks deal additional 5…17…20 frost damage while your enemy is chilled.

Sigil of Doom – when you swap to this weapon set, your next attack applies poison when you flank your target.
Sigil of Geomancy – when you swap to this weapon set, your next attack applies bleeding when you flank your target.
Sigil of Hydromancy – when you swap to this weapon set, your next attack applies chill when you flank your target.

Etc.. Just to give some examples

The only fair sigils would be +X % damage/condi duration or similar tbh.

On swap sigils are bad, so are on crit sigils.

Intelligence is somewhat decent tho, but 3 hits are way too much

Thiefz.3695:

Short response: I see people saying, “It’s better for the game if I can see and react to the spike and mitigate it that way.” I’m saying, “You know the damage is there so take preventative measures to defend.”

Mrbig.8019:

Thiefz.3695:

I would disagree. I think the RNG is fine. Let the meta evolve against this just like it did the first year when burst was king and bunker builds came into play.

First year burst builds were all about skill.

Only thief was broken due to stealth rendering.

all of that had counterplay (aside stealth openings whose are still a problem now).

Sigils/Runes damage CANT BE AVOIDED what’s so hard about it, it’s the opposite of skillful gameplay

I think we look back in the past and say things were better when they were not. The sigils themselves have been around since the start. The only issue was the April 2014 update that changed the percentage and the cool down. The proc was increased from 30% to 50%.

We can talk about counter play. Since it procs an additional piece of damage 25% of the time on burst builds, the counter play would then be to build around damage reducing builds. Builds that focus on protection and weakness will mitigate the burst. A successful application of weakness will ensure that you lock down the proc sigils during that time since you can’t crit while under the effects of weakness.

However since we have condition cleanse, that could be an issue. Since this is a team game, however, a team that focuses on weakness could successfully apply weakness more than the other team could cleanse thus mitigating the issue. AOE weakness is available. On a 1v1 level, would this be difficult? Sure. But since this is a team game, a team could spec for this.

I feel like the complaint totally misses the team aspects of the game to cover and counter. Peeling and tanking. We’ll see what happens when Taunt comes into play.

Ye ye good and all.

Again, a skill based game revolves around big plays

→ dodge that 5 k arcing arrow / 7 k eviscerate

→ interrupt thief stealth combo

→ dodge that big barrage coming to you

→ interrupt dat necro heal

and so on.

Sigils are making these “skill based” plays totally irrilevant since

→ farts proccing 5 k damages

→ instant weap swaps doing 4 k damage ( even more with geo doom, even more with vamp runes)

→ air runes proccing WHILE BLOCKING/EVADING and able to proc all on crit sigils.

And so on.

There’s no point in dodging key abilities since even 200 damage abilities can unchain the god of procs and down you from 10k health to 0

( and dear god it happened, i got a nec getting air runes+fire+air+ chill of death on me WHILE I WAS BLOCKING WITH SHELTER ON GUARD and got insta downed).

Professions should be based around their own strenghts, not around sigils.

Current meta is not defined by cele amulet, it’s defined by SIGILS and RUNES.

Engies are overlords because it’s the proff synergizing better with sigils due to INNATE passive procs ( IP).

There’s nothing to defend here, this is like the worst case scenario of every game trying to be competitive.

Thiefz.3695:

I would disagree. I think the RNG is fine. Let the meta evolve against this just like it did the first year when burst was king and bunker builds came into play.

First year burst builds were all about skill.

Only thief was broken due to stealth rendering.

all of that had counterplay (aside stealth openings whose are still a problem now).

Sigils/Runes damage CANT BE AVOIDED what’s so hard about it, it’s the opposite of skillful gameplay

Fixed Op with the most random thing i’ve ever seen

-> Necro proccing Air/fire/chill of death with Air runes ( hitting for 3k)

Total damage -> 10 k

nightblood.7910:

I mentioned this in your other post about this.

The game is balanced with them, vitality is what it is to compensate. Vitality is a passive defense. Toughness is another passive defense adding to Armor. Neither of which are evenly distributed among classes.

So you take out sigils of air and fire, you would have to decrease Vitality and toughness on all classes and amulets or you would have to increase skill coefficients on so many skills across so many classes to rebalance the removal of that damage. As all of this is currently balanced with those sigils in mind.

With that said, then if were getting rid of RNG, well now we have crit chance to consider.

We also have variable weapon damage, we have skills that give boons RNG.

The list goes on and on.

That’s the problem, everything is balanced with those sigils/runes in mind.

That’s why the game is becoming a desert ( PvP wise) and that’s why no one takes it seriously ( infrastructure is another big point here).

Remove RnG so game can become skill based, THEN balance accordingly.

Moreover, crit chance is considered as a fairly accepted randomness, and there’s no need to add more.

Trevor Boyer.6524:

You would lose so much dynamic in build versatility if you began to nerf all of these sigil/rune effects. Rather than wishing for nerfs, consider wishing for buffs to the useless sigils/runes. As of now there are 42 possible sigils to use in pvp but only about 8 of them are viable at all. If useless sigils were buffed, the game would have much more flavor and that is exactly what pvp needs, not blanding nerfs.

Those sigils and runes are 90% unavoidable/unpredictable damage.

it’s bad

It has no counterplay

It’s unhealthy for the game

Needs removed asap.

The game has came to the point where basically there’s no point in dodging important skills, since a fart can proc 5 k sigils and a 200 damage attack will get u insta ded.

The aphoteosis is

1. cele engi with vamp runes/intelligence/doom whereas a single autoattack will proc 7 secs poison/7sec burn/1 k leech

2. Hammer guard proccing air/fire/hammer chill with Justice’s intervention

3. Necros proccing air-fire-chill of death with Air Runes
4. Thieves dealing 4 k damage with head shot thx to vamp leech/air/fire and proccing Panic Strike.

5. Shoutbows killing you with Geo-Doom weapon swaps

6. All other professions killing you with 3k Hydro-Leech weap swaps.

7. Warriors dealing 6 k damage with dodge thx to reckless dodge crit ( air/fire) and random vamp leech.

The game is getting skill- less and skill-less every patch.

Nerf runes and Sigils, say ENOUGH WITH RNG.

we’re forgetting about vamp runes lol

Ravenmoon.5318:

Oh look, another oRNG member crying out. Helseth giving you too much hard time and you guys blame it on fire/air procs? The same fire/air procs that you have access to?

Can’t wait for ROM’s thread c:

Hint: Stop humiliating yourselves. You won WTS thanks to those procs.

Lordrosicky.5813:

Nah thief is the best builds because they 1 shot everything and never die, and setup stealth spikes which you dont even need ts for. Perma aoe stealth class with ports for days and the ability to insta gib anything in the game..

Combine this overlord with any other zerker with fire and air and you get double fire and air procs out of stealth for 15k auto attack spikes

You contradict yourself. So you need to make a choice. Are thieves setting up stealth spikes or they press #1. Plus its not perma stealth. You are weak. If you let a thief get full stealth in refuge as a necromancer, you are failure. Anything else lasts tops 3-4 seconds unless traited. And SA thieves are a joke, sadly. I would hardly call 3-4 seconds stealth a perma stealth, you know.

See if you said that the thief goes into stealth and runs away while you think he’s around you, that I can agree on. But you spew kitten like this and you lost all credibility i might have given you for playing a necro.

What are u even talkin about omg

glock.6590:

cele classes are still 2x stronger than air/fire classes. Need to make sure to lower their sustain by at least 20-25% before nerfing RNG damage.

We can nerf everything in this game.

Literally EVERYTHING.

Blackjack.5621:

I already explained why sigils should be weaker (not defining builds). Doesnt matter if you tweak the damage or the internal cooldown.

The issue doesnt exsist all of a sudden, it has been there for 1 year. And you are incorrect, sigils and runes do carry builds.

Just quit like everybody else lol.

They don’t really care, balance has gone towards more and more power creep than ever, it ain’t gonna change.

I’ll start with mine

Panic strike

Improvisation

Air-fire-blood

Chill of death

Halting Strike

Trickery Steal

On swap sigils ( Hydro, geo, doom, leeching above all)

Ranger Longbow 1900 range

Slick shoes

Gear shield 20 (16) CD

Incendiary powder

That’s all folks.

What’s yours ?

GrandHaven.1052:

Mass counter the meta, and it won’t be meta very long.

Tip : Boon stipping.

Air-fire ain’t no boonz

Treeoflife.4031:

I’m kinda impressed at the amount of hate pouring out at thief right now haha. not gonna say too much but to those who hate acro thief…..its kinda the lesser of about 5 evils. So hoping for more or enjoying the nerfs to acro thief now will only result in more “god mode” DP thieves. If you don’t play thief then you don’t know how hard SD thief can be to play. Yes there are a few buffs that we got, but most classes got as many if not more buffs than thief. just sayin

The thread is about god mode D/P thieves.

And about how even more god mode they will be after HoT.

T raw.4658:

Jekkt.6045:

then tell me which amazing berserk build other than medi guard is able to reliably kill a thief.

there are support builds on thief, wether they’re good or not is a different question.
not every class has a support build, or have you ever seen a support mesmer?

the reason why thief is the strongest zerker is because of:

its active defence, be it stealth or evades
its ability to disengage and to reset a fight
the numerous gapclosers that make a thief unkiteable
the ability to interrupt through stability

no other berserk build is able to do all these things at the same time. there is not a single reason to not take a thief with the current balance.

All classes can

No other class can.

that’s why there’s has been a thief in every team ( aside few months pre-trickery buff) since the start of the game.