Guild Wars 2

Exciton.8942:

Shadow refuge was great for team rezzing before.

But now you have scrapper sneak gyro and function gyro power rezz. In addition, revenant and scrapper have aoe reveal which nullifies shadow refuge.

Shadow refuge was good for party stealth, not really for ressing.

It was a giant " hit here" button even before, it was used for stealth gankings.

I guess meta has shifted ( or teams are just worse than they were before, i don’t know).

Daredevil dodge is a point.

Abelisk.4527:

Thief isn’t broken at all. It has received lots of endurance nerfs, staff nerfs, and PI was nerfed in the recent patch too.

They have superior mobility, sure, but their dueling capability is constantly receiving nails.

If you’re losing time on 1vs1 on a thief, delete the thief and play an engi.

Thief role wasn’t to duel and it will never be

hello guise,

i’ve not played in three years, and aside some silly joke builds ( DH on point is supid, tho i really dunno about its viability in high PvP if it still exists) i still find thief to be stupidly broken.

And i’m a thief player.

Not only that, it’s also super boring, D/P is by far the only good build to play, in the WHOLE class.

The only good thing about the game is they removed air/fire and Hydro/geo/leech sigils ( thx god)

and i’ve a silly question, why is no one playing Shadow refuge, it was like the most broken thing in the whole game.

Ok thx bye

laquito.5269:

Quadox.7834:

snippet

Only a scrub would say things like “class x is their favourite”, do you honestly think they’ll read their posts any further or give any value to it?

I simply don’t like your whole argumentation on thief balance, as it just screams hypocrisy. Thief already had issues since 2k14, but those were still overshined by the superior mobility and stealth which basically kept them in meta. You can acknowledge that or not, denying it won’t make it any more untrue though.

Thief weaknesses didn’t come out of nowhere, they’ve had problems with sustained builds before HoT, they’ve had problems with condi overload before HoT and they’ve been squishy before HoT, the only thing that kept them viable was mobility and stealth, so how can one possibly claim that thief wasn’t struggling before, just because they were meta, it doesn’t mean that they had no problems.

Those that still believe that Thief is viable can just watch Helseth’s TCG – 55HP analysis or ask him if he’d ever play with a thief comp atm.

I totally confirm this post.

Thief started being a broken class when they added 20000 craploads into steal to cover its weaknesses.

Then they started giving sigils ridicolous power creep and thief became not only worse balance wise, but even worse compared to other classes.

If they just removed all the passive crap ( and nerfed steal cuz it’s been almost 2 years it’s an uber OP insta skill), due to power creep, thief would seem like a totally worthless proff designed to have no perk aside stealth ( which it isn’t anymore).

They should just rehaul thief imo.

They should rehaul a lot of things tbh.

dDuff.3860:

Mrbig.8019:

IS channeled vigor really worth it over withdraw ?

I don’t play the game anymore ( too much passive crap tbh altough it seems to be somehow better right now) and i’m really wondering if that heal ( which seems utterly crap in my eyes) is really decent or not.

I

It is really great heal skill.
Just compare it –
-20% more heal if endurance is not full, 70% more otherwise,
-2 more dodges “on demand” instead of being just one and same “cast time” (withdraw is instacast, but evade last 3/4 so…),
- when traited with physical skill recharge it is 2 sec less cd. You may say that when traited – withdraw is 14 sec cd, but, don’t forget that you have to give up “bountiful thief” for this.
- withdraw cleanses conditions you don’t suffer at all when you take dash.

Only advantage in withdraw over CV is that it has instant cast, which is still not usable while dazed/stunned, so as for me, CV is superior to withdraw, but it may be just a personal preference.

It’s the channel which bugs me.

how is it even possible to handle with so many istant rupts around ?

dDuff.3860:

Sarrow.2785:

Nice clips with some seriously sick plays – grats!

I will add however that this collection of picked and edited clips doesn’t tell the whole story of thief as I’m sure you well know! For example someone with the right ping could put together a similar warrior vid, a vid winning 1v1s with no weapon swaps (seen one of these!) or even a vid of a DH losing every on-point 1v1. Doesn’t mean it paints the whole picture of a class.

I’ve been watching some of Sizer’s vids on twitch where he streams whole matches. Sizer’s a top tier S/D thief in my eyes and literally runs rings around players, turning them inside out with ports and dodges – but even Sizer, who spends hundreds of hours dueling and learning every single tell gets 100 > 0’d sometimes when he mistimes a dodge or steal, bails on half his 1v1’s and is almost solely relegated to +1ing and decapping.

It also rankles me how you’re basically using this time where thief clearly DOES need some love as an opportunity to stroke your peen.

Great, skillful vid man, but seriously uncool.

I’m going to “stroke my peen” even more and say, that this (mine) build have such an upper hand in thief fights, that I have 75%+ winning chance against Sizer, primarily with help of Channeled vigor and Block knockback, which can be proven not only by my videos, but also with Sizer’s saved streams

Don’t get too offended, I’m just being ironic here.
And while I’m showing highlights, I’m still losing duels and make mistakes sometime.

But it doesn’t matter, because now I just want to show you some archetype/gameplay of thief you’re going to see a lot soon. Just remember my words

IS channeled vigor really worth it over withdraw ?

I don’t play the game anymore ( too much passive crap tbh altough it seems to be somehow better right now) and i’m really wondering if that heal ( which seems utterly crap in my eyes) is really decent or not.

I

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Mrbig.8019:

S/D-Sbow

DA/CS/acro-Trick-DD with bound, escapist absolution and weakness on crit

Shadow step, shadow refuge and bandits defense or impairing daggers, but ing signet is still better prolly ( i’ll prefer bandit’s defense)

That’s the only build that will ever see the light in PvP.

It may be good tho

Staff is terrible and, as i said before, people will just end spamming vault till no ini, cuz other moves are crap.

I disagree. You can’t defend a node with S/D + SB. Staff will allow you to defend what you captured since you rely less on stealth.

S/D never relied on stealth in the first place.

Thief role has never been to defend nodes in the first place.

Bound dodge is for stealthless builds anyway since damage will get u revealed in no time.

It will probably be the highest possible damage a thief could achieve.

S/D-Sbow

DA/CS/acro-Trick-DD with bound, escapist absolution and weakness on crit

Shadow step, shadow refuge and bandits defense or impairing daggers, but ing signet is still better prolly ( i’ll prefer bandit’s defense)

That’s the only build that will ever see the light in PvP.

It may be good tho

Staff is terrible and, as i said before, people will just end spamming vault till no ini, cuz other moves are crap.

stof.9341:

Well Shadow Step might not be the best stun breaker in the game for long once HoT releases with it’s 8s cooldown stunbreak on Daredevil and 10s cooldown on Berserker..

Shadowstep is a 50 secs DOUBLE stunbreaker which removes 3 condies and travels for 1200 range with the chance to backport.

No one will compare, not even an 8 secs stunbreak with a block ( which is what thieves may bring along with it tho :P )

PopeUrban.2578:

With respect:

Shadow refuge and withdraw are the best competitive options when you are forced in to a d/p stealth spec in the current meta

HiS is still awful due to cast time no matter what

SoM is useful for blob warfare and pve (and even more useful with kitten damage on dodge and 400+heal on evade)

The venom is a venom, so it’s awful unless you’re playing vshare, and even then it’s pretty bad.

The new heal is actually quite good for stealth builds.

D/P is still going to be the best build for roaming stealth, but keep in mind the DD spec actually opens up things to do that aren’t roaming stealth.

Shadow refuge is one of the most if not the most OP utility in game.

Shadow refuge has always been part of every competitive thief U bar from headstart and the reason is simple: stealth openers and stealth resses for the whole team.

withdraw is the best heal because it has the realistically highest HPS for the thief, on top of a very long evade.

DD won’t bring any new role to thieves for the simple reason there’re no roles anymore: it’s Eles and nothing more, cuz eles cover basically any possible role aside thief’s one.

If ele gets nerfed then there’s the possibility of a mobile point holder with decent damage with on a soldier acro-trick-DD build but even in that case there would be no reason to bring thief for a role with an awful lot of competitors offering a lot more than thief in the way of CCs, support, heal and what more ( bunker guard, shoutbow, hambow, DD ele, staff ele, engie, cele necro and so on).

Today POI may show what the daredevil really is, or rather an uber damage dealer, especially if staff coefficients are the ones datamined and they fixed auto attack.

Staff will be our 2shots weapon and we may see staffbow thieves, that’s all IMHO.

PopeUrban.2578:

Keep in mind it’s a cleanse on evade not on dodge

This means it triggers on any evade, not just evades from dodge. This includes d/d and s/d 2, sb 3, any outside source of evade granted by allies, and probably a couple more I can’t think of right now.

It’s actually a very powerful trait, especially considering it stacks with a 400+ heal on evade, and if it were downgraded to minor they’d have to ICD it in to uselessness.

As is it’s a solid choice when compared to the other options. If you’re running a stealth build, it’s probably not a priority for you, if you’re running in a group with a lot of outside cleanse, again, probably not a big deal.

DD actually has a place in a lot of stealth builds, and I can see viable */p stealth gank builds that would still take SA with it and wouldn’t benefit quite as much, but would get tons of utility and damage from the extra damage on interrupt. I can see staff builds for group fights that would rather have the extra end and staff damage to keep from getting spiked and rely on allied cleanses. Builds that don’t need cleanse on evade are typically geared to get more use out of stuff like withdraw, shadowstep, and SA.

This trait seems to be the option for the heavier dodgetank style builds as a way to allow them to skip withdraw and shadowstep since they have the option to take the mobility from staff or a dodge replacement in stead.

Withdraw is the only competitive heal thief has, and shadowstep is the best stunbreaker in the game.

There’s no way thieves will take them off their bars.

Even a 48 secs CD RFI with escapist absolution would be a subpar choice when compared to shadowstep.

Whenever u think about a DD build you have to think there’s only 1 space left in our U-skills cuz shadow refuge and shadowstep ain’t leaving at all.

moreover when u think about what traitline will be taken off for DD u have to think that trickery is a must and DA would be only replaced if DD offered the same utility ( weaknes on poison, panic strike, impro for double refuge) or damage ( Exe).

This leaves DD in competition with SA only, and specifically condi removal and heal.

So u have to trait for heal on evade and condi removal on evade.

The build is already forced, it’s sun day clear.

heal on evade and condi removal on evade need to be baseline, even with higher CD ( like 5 secs) and less health ( 300ish) otherwise the whole specialization becomes obsolete when compared to current D/P panic strike build.

Sigh people should really play PvP at decent level before talking about this stuff, otherwise it’s seriously wasted time.

babazhook.6805:

Mrbig.8019:

Kocoff.7582:

So It looks like most people think this trait fine and should be left as is. I still which it would move to the adept line at least, but it’s ok. @ Overworld, I guess you are right, I wanted to see where I stand, and understand other people’s opinion. I still find a little issue with it.

BWE will probably makes us understand the situation even more.

I’m totally with you.

I hate to sound rude but people saying escapist absolution shouldn’t be baseline have literally 0 clue about PvP.

There’s absolutely ZERO way a thief can stay melee without any condi removal or sustain, S/D vanished from meta for the exact same reason, or rather pain response being a controversial choice and bad condi removal overall when compared to buffed shadow arts ( even pre-nerf, vamp runes+ last response was enough to save thief 100% of times, making D/P even better).

People are so “blinded” ( pun pun pun) by the hype they don’t really understand anet is basically forcing choices in all our traitlines, we are even paying for our added mechanic !!!

If DD is our “alternative” to shadow arts sustain, then escapist absolution will be a MUST HAVE and there will be again 0 diversity, even worse since all traits are very good.

Thief doesn’t have condi removal options aside shadow arts and escapist absolution so there will be 0 choice.

Sigh, why am i even talkin, i’m prolly just wasting my time.

Hyperlobe does not an argument make. If you claim 0 condition removal outside SA then that had better be the case as we are all theives here and are well aware of condition removal sources.

Shadowstep is condition removal. Pain response is condition removal. Trickster is condition removal. Withdraw is condition removal. RFI is condition removal. HIS is condition removal. Sigils of purity and of cleansing and of Generoisty is condition removal.

Using this trait and trickster just as example gives the potemtial for 5 conditions removed (three fixed types) every 15 seconds. None of this adds up to 0.

In order to proc escapist resolution u need to EVADE something.

It has a prerequisite.

It’s a trait made for aggressive evasion playstyle like S/D.

Trickster trait is terrible because TRICKS ARE TERRIBLE, that’s why it’s not even considered as a reliable source of condi removal.

Pain response is bad because it now competes with vigor on heal.

Moreover if u build this way you’re acro-trickery-DD and basically have 0 utility ( no panic strike, no weakness on poison, no impro for double SR )/ less damage ( no exe, no critical strike).

Basically there’s not a single reason to take this build over current D/P shadow arts.

pls

TBH, I find more emblematic the fact they needed to reroll to thief in order to win the game >_>

Ele can do everything ( and be the best at it) aside thief role, cuz no one can take thief role ( aka: thief will always be needed, even if it’s not that strong).

The fact no one can take over thief role is way worse than ele being OP, cuz ele can be nerfed now or then, but thief can’t be nerfed without literally breaking the proff.

Food for thoughts.

Kocoff.7582:

So It looks like most people think this trait fine and should be left as is. I still which it would move to the adept line at least, but it’s ok. @ Overworld, I guess you are right, I wanted to see where I stand, and understand other people’s opinion. I still find a little issue with it.

BWE will probably makes us understand the situation even more.

I’m totally with you.

I hate to sound rude but people saying escapist absolution shouldn’t be baseline have literally 0 clue about PvP.

There’s absolutely ZERO way a thief can stay melee without any condi removal or sustain, S/D vanished from meta for the exact same reason, or rather pain response being a controversial choice and bad condi removal overall when compared to buffed shadow arts ( even pre-nerf, vamp runes+ last response was enough to save thief 100% of times, making D/P even better).

People are so “blinded” ( pun pun pun) by the hype they don’t really understand anet is basically forcing choices in all our traitlines, we are even paying for our added mechanic !!!

If DD is our “alternative” to shadow arts sustain, then escapist absolution will be a MUST HAVE and there will be again 0 diversity, even worse since all traits are very good.

Thief doesn’t have condi removal options aside shadow arts and escapist absolution so there will be 0 choice.

Sigh, why am i even talkin, i’m prolly just wasting my time.

Auesis.7301:

People need to get out of the notion that Grandmaster traits are just that, Grandmaster traits. They aren’t. Traits are just choices within a Specialisation now.

That, plus: this is FAR more interesting than the other Elites. We’re not stuck with a crummy replaced Dodge that we don’t like, we can pick from THREE, and they all benefit us in different ways. The extra base 50 endurance benefits pretty much any build ever, as well.

Honestly, I’d say we got far more benefits than, say, Tempest. Overloads are TERRIBLE.

I’m not saying they’re not good or cool.

Infact they’re.

problem is we objectively have one less GM when compared to other professions.

I’m not even sayig it won’t work, it will.

I’m complaining about the fact that we’re the only proff having to PAY for its added mechanic.

It’s stupid.

Gabriell.4856:

Gray.9041:

stof.9341:

Gray.9041:

but other classes don’t give up a trait for it – they get it in their minor.

All the minor traits that apply to dodge either get a very small benefit or a rather long cooldown on it.

I mean their class mechanics.

Chronomancer’s Continuum Split
Dragonhunter’s New Virtues
Reaper’s Reaper Shroud
Tempest’s Overloads
Herald’s Facet of Nature
Berserker’s New Burst Skills

all of these are available to them through the first minor trait. compare this to an extra 50 endurance… it’s not exactly comparable…

(also, before you say an extra 50 endurance is a big thing, we used to get a trait which refilled 20 or 30 endurance on dodge roll – effectively giving us an extra 50 odd endurance. so we get an old trait, while other classes get stuff like Reaper Shroud or Continuum Split…)

What he said.

Look guys/gals. We arent being negative. We are pointing out flaws and we feel like the thief was short changed by gating it behind GM traits. We’re making this point so that we can get more out of this elite spec. We’re are not saying this is doom and gloom.

For example suggestion.
Add F3, F4, F5 each for the new dodge. They have high CD so you’re locked into a dodge type for a good bit. (We don’t want to be Ele’s).

Then add 3 new GM traits to DD.

QFT.

This is a joke, thief is the only profession without a proper new mechanic.

Dodge is cool and all, but we have basically 1 Less GM trait when compared to other classes.

Thief is the only proff actually PAYING for its enhanced mechanic.

Having F2-4 as toggles would be a way better choice instead of THIS.

stof.9341:

Mrbig.8019:

Moreover, dodge could be both a whirl and a leap finisher.

I don’t think it can. Look, there are 3 traits that say they replace dodge. Can’t you see it? I bet all three are on the same trait level and it’ll be your choice which kind of dodge you use.

Also, the whirl finisher projectiles might cause you reveal if the timing is wrong.

absolutey not.

If u follow the pic orders impaling lotus ( whirl finisher) is a minor.

So u can take 3 dodge traits and having dodge doing all 3 things.

yolo swaggins.2570:

Mrbig.8019:

Auesis.7301:

The mysterious 12th trait has been found – and I was right. It’s a 3rd type of dodge skill with power damage. Potential DPS increase for PvE use and just monstrous in general for anything else. This hits about as hard as a frontstab!

ROFL S/P DAREDEVIL META CONFIRMED

Just about any set could be in the meta now.

S/P lacked stealth access, now it has it.

Moreover, dodge could be both a whirl and a leap finisher.

Personally i feel like D/P is still way better even with DD elite spec ( can also go for pulmonary impact, making head shot silly and ridicolous), but other builds may see some light.

I really believe they should change some traits tho, DD could be kinda broken as it is.

Auesis.7301:

The mysterious 12th trait has been found – and I was right. It’s a 3rd type of dodge skill with power damage. Potential DPS increase for PvE use and just monstrous in general for anything else. This hits about as hard as a frontstab!

ROFL S/P DAREDEVIL META CONFIRMED

Terra.8571:

Mrbig.8019:

stof.9341:

Can we please not make loads of long angry posts based on non tweaked damage coefficients on datamined not yeat announced skill tooltips?

Let me remind everyone of stuff that happens between BWE for example :

Rapid Swipe: Increased the damage by 30%.
Forceful Bash: Increased the damage by 36%.
Rejuvenating Assault: Increased the healing-power scaling by 50%.
Punishing Sweep: Increased the damage by 33%.
Debilitating Slam: Increased the damage by 100%.
Renewing Wave: Increased the healing-power scaling by 30%.
Surge of the Mists: Increased the damage by 11%.

Infact i’m not angry at all about the damage.

I’m angry cuz the weapon is useless by design.

Damage is crazy high on certain skills like Vault ( which is also AoE).

On full ini u can do 3 Vaults in a row, dealing stuff like 20-30 k damage in a team fight if they all crit and it’s like the most stupid thing ever.

Weakening charge is even more stupid cuz it costs 3 ini, 450 radius ( whole cap point) and also causes weakness if u stay in range, pretty much same damage.

What i’m complaining about is the fact the weapon has no purpose aside damage.

It has bad defense, bad CC, bad support, bad offensive support ( poison, soft ccs) and very awkwards mechanic like backward evasion and very costly gap closer doing kitten ton of damage for no reason.

Weapon DESIGN is simply bad, not its damage.

If damage stays this way, 2-3 crit hits are all u need to kill ANYTHING.

rofl.

I agree with a lot of what you’ve said about the staff. I can see many thieves taking the DD line and the elite with maybe a utility or 2 but the staff is outclassed by other weapon sets.

Out of curiosity, where are you getting the damage numbers for Vault from? I’ve checked ingame (using my full zerker ascended stats) and the tool tips off the reddit post and in both cases vault is strong but not as strong as you suggest. It’s 20% ish stronger than c&d or a frontal backstab but 40% weaker than a backstab from the rear. Pulmonary Impact (which can;t crit) is 90% of a rear backstab.

I don’t pvp or wvw much these days and from a PvE perspective, staff brings little to the table that dagger and sword don’t already do. As others have mentioned, IA > Vault for getting around and so can’t see much reason for taking it.

However, with the upcoming announcement of challenging content, if ‘tanking’ (note the quotes) becomes needed in some form, then I wonder if staff daredevil could become an evasion tank like class – I’d honestly love that.

Those on tooltips are base numbers.

Base damage for back backstab is 800.

Basically staff 2 and vault damage is like a back backstab.

As things stand now, staff is a poorly designed weap ( S/D is superior in every aspect and even S/P may be thx to pulmonary impact) with 2 overpowered skills like staff 2 and staff 5 ( damage wise).

If they’ve changed those numbers ( something they really should have already done), staff is nothing but a subpar choice with no real identity: 5 randomly put togheter skills with no real purpose aside “being cool”.

stof.9341:

Can we please not make loads of long angry posts based on non tweaked damage coefficients on datamined not yeat announced skill tooltips?

Let me remind everyone of stuff that happens between BWE for example :

Rapid Swipe: Increased the damage by 30%.
Forceful Bash: Increased the damage by 36%.
Rejuvenating Assault: Increased the healing-power scaling by 50%.
Punishing Sweep: Increased the damage by 33%.
Debilitating Slam: Increased the damage by 100%.
Renewing Wave: Increased the healing-power scaling by 30%.
Surge of the Mists: Increased the damage by 11%.

Infact i’m not angry at all about the damage.

I’m angry cuz the weapon is useless by design.

Damage is crazy high on certain skills like Vault ( which is also AoE).

On full ini u can do 3 Vaults in a row, dealing stuff like 20-30 k damage in a team fight if they all crit and it’s like the most stupid thing ever.

Weakening charge is even more stupid cuz it costs 3 ini, 450 radius ( whole cap point) and also causes weakness if u stay in range, pretty much same damage.

What i’m complaining about is the fact the weapon has no purpose aside damage.

It has bad defense, bad CC, bad support, bad offensive support ( poison, soft ccs) and very awkwards mechanic like backward evasion and very costly gap closer doing kitten ton of damage for no reason.

Weapon DESIGN is simply bad, not its damage.

If damage stays this way, 2-3 crit hits are all u need to kill ANYTHING.

rofl.

Kocoff.7582:

You see, people say Staff is garbage and how they don’t see how staff is gonna replace our current things. This is actually good news. What we needed was diversity among other things. Not only that, but this trait truly favors other weapon builds too!

Stop thinking as individuals, and see it an array of possibilities for the Thieves’ Den as a whole!

talking about WvW here, cause that’s all i care about. I only do PvE to get stuff for WvW

We’ ll see the usual D/Ps but we’ ll start seeing even more D/D and a real surge in S/P including a refreshing reappearance of S/D. SB still remains our irreplaceable utility weapon.

Staff will be fixed after BWE and I bet it will be placed damage wise between Dagger & Sword.

You need to see the bright side of things guys. Staff being a bad, useless stick is in fact a great thing for the Thief Community as a whole.

If ONLY, IF ONLY we get could get our traits fixed…

Problem with staff is not damage. Problem with staff is it has no purpose as a weapon. Its skills are terribly designed and if u may happen to see any use in WwW or PvP is cuz Vault seems to hit like a truck ( base damage is higher than back backstab O__o ) and people will simply spam it till ini ends or opponents melt.

It’s stupid

PopeUrban.2578:

TBH it occurs to me that they may have designed it as a PvE weapon considering that the utils and elite are all very PvP oriented, and the trait line seems geared to go either way. Like, staff is to thieves what GS is to warriors?

Current meta for war is gs-hammer.

Yes, the hammer train build.

GS has always been a very good weap, it simply had its damage reduced way too much after the quickness fix.

Now that war have rampage and 30% more damage ( and those 9 k arcing slices), war are picking GS again.

It was just a matter of pure damage need.

Azure.8670:

Mrbig.8019:

PopeUrban.2578:

AA – It’s built more for making pve viable with the spec as it does a 3 sec weakness.

Stealth attack – The fact that the weapon doesn’t have built in stealth is probably why they made it so powerful (2 sec KD stealth opener would be broken if you could chain stealth like */d)

Weakening charge – It’s actually death blossom with weakness and direct damage in stead of bleed/evade. Makes the weapon viable to use with SoM as a white damage weapon.

Debilitating Arc – Breaks immob, allowing you greater flexibility in util choices.

Dust Strike – emergency blind if you’re out of end, same cost as Debilitating Arc so probably intended to be a situational/tactical choice between the two

Vault – Probably intended more as a gap closer/support trait proc opener for team fights. Seems a little expensive for what it does. Leap finisher does allow it to set up as a stealth combo so could have interesting team play interactions with the stealth attack?

Channeled Vigor – Any way you slice it it’s a lame heal. If you’re so low on end you need to use it, you’re not in a position where using it is actually safe. Reduce the healing ratio and give it something else. Pulsing blind or projectile reflect or something, IDK.

Reflexive strike – Traited, it’s an 8s recharge stun break as well as a block/reflexive knockdown. Looks like a really solid overall defense panic button.

Fist flurry – Super situational, but it’s unblockable, be a good CC follow up against anybody that runs passive block. Might be mechanically interesting if you can hold palm strike for a while. Good way to force the target to blow a dodge so you can exploit your advantage of extra dodges maybe?

Distracting Dagger – Looks intended for breaking heals to secure kills.

Impairing daggers – Slow makes it easier to exploit interrupt traits/gear and time dodges. Seems better as an opener than a gap closer.

Elite – Solid finisher. Means you don’t have to worry about stomping if you start the chain at the end of the opponent’s HP bar. If the chain times like autoattacks you could down the target with hit 1, miss hit 2 due to downed knockback, blind, etc, and still have time to run in and do hit 3 and finish them. Great roamer/skirmisher elite to full-kill targets and GTFO fast.

Overall staff seems like it’s got good bones, but testing needs to be done on those damage values they might be a little low, or they might be perfect when combined with the traits as a lesser damage/more durable melee set. It’s nice to see that the utilities/elite synergize well with existing sets and add real options as alternatives to deception utils.

It’s definately a better PvE set for non-condi builds just on virtue of spamming 2 and built in mobility, but it might need some cost/damage tweaks to be attractive for pvp.

Staff is garbage.

heal is garbage.

Some U-skills are really solid and powerful, elite is very good.

Tbh i don’t see staff replacing nor primary sets ( D/X, S/X) neither sbow, mostly cuz it’s nor more powerful than current sets neither has more tactical uses ( no poison, bad auto, slow skills and backward evade LOL).

Even if some skills damage are very high, their utility is terrible ( D/P has blinds and dazes and stealth combos, S/D has stealth, dazes and inf strike, forward evade which can be also used backward) while staff has nothing aside some combo finishers u can’t combo with cuz u have no fields LOL.

it may seem very cool at first sight but damage isn’t everything, not even in PvE, mind it in PvP where staff will be garbage if released this way.

The idea behind it is very cool, but weap skills needs to be better than this.

I can see S/D, S/P and D/P being very strong with daredevil elite spec instead of shadow arts/acro and 3rd u-skill and elite as physicals.

Staff doesn’t seem like garbage st all, just a weak as, which isn’t a big deal

AA is where damage comes from.

Moreover it has nothing, no defense, no offense, no cc, backward evasion ( bad for engaging, useful in disengages only), gap closer has 1 sec cast time ( screaming kitten ME MEANWHILE) without evade ( even ranger swoop has evade on it) and we’re not warriors ( whirlwind is a way better evade also, rush covers way more distance and can deal up to 6-7k in pvp ), terrible utility.

There’s 0 reason to pick staff over any other existing set thief already has.

Amen.

Stilgar.6437:

mixed. staff is terrible, it does nothing. dmg is pitiful, all skills deal terrible dmg except 6 which has a big ini cost and very small dmg radius, no stealth, no CC (well you have a KD from stealth but no stealth), no combat evades (3 is more of a disengage) you dont get to use those evade bonuses while fighting. maybe the staff AA should have built in evade on 2nd hit. no blast finishers (some whirls but no fields to make use of them and whirls are pretty weak in general), no combo fields, no boons at all, limited gap closers (6 ini leap), no party support, very limited condition application, limited soft CC (you have a criple but its on a disengage skill, you need to run back to your target). I mean whats the role of the weapon? its not evasive at all and doesnt interrupt, contradicting the traitline, it has zero support and weak mobility. its not good at anything and dmg is so bad you will struggle killing those random yellow critters, let alone proper foes or other players. Hits 3 targets only so not even useful for tagging, they should have at least made it good for open world tagging – wide arcs, hitting lots of foes – loot stick.

It should have awesome animation but thats about it. Whats the idea behind it – i take staff for X? for what? when? i see no use for it in pve and especially pvp (it cant kill, doesnt help you survive, doesnt support, mediocre mobility). terrible, honestly could be the worst weapon in the game across all proffesions in this state.

Granted the numbers arent final but the fact that they designed it to be extremly low dmg with no evades is worrisome, 10/20/30% buff to skills here and there after BWEs wont really change anything.

Traitline seems good though, it synergies well with existing weapons and pretty badly with the staff. Cant really say too much cause we dont know how are they distributed in tiers. Could be awesome for S/X and even D/P gets a lot of benefits, maybe even enough to drop SA for it. Unique mechanic – extra dodge/dash, good but a bit underwhelming scope-wise.

Utilities – pretty good. since refuge and shadowstep arent ever leaving the thiefs bar, you only need one of them to be really good. and the stunbreaker is brilliant. Others are good and might see some use. Elite looks really promising for stomping and should deffinitly see some use.

General look and feel – very nice. fast, evasive, martial arts kind of vibe, waiting to see some animations, im very optimistic

Overall – terribly disappointed with the staff – no offense, no defense, no utility, no support, no control, no mobility. but otherwise pretty good. Really looking forward to trying out S/X with the new stuff. Always loved the sword but everything about sword builds was nerfed too kitten much, this should bring it back up.

Thieves might not get a lot (considering useless weapon and limited mechanic change) but what they do get is pretty awesome.

Perfect analisys, i said the exact same things on the other thread.

Peace guys, u staff lovers better hope staff isn’t the garbage we got from datamining.

An OH weap ( or MH) weap would have been 100% times better for thieves than this thing.

PopeUrban.2578:

AA – It’s built more for making pve viable with the spec as it does a 3 sec weakness.

Stealth attack – The fact that the weapon doesn’t have built in stealth is probably why they made it so powerful (2 sec KD stealth opener would be broken if you could chain stealth like */d)

Weakening charge – It’s actually death blossom with weakness and direct damage in stead of bleed/evade. Makes the weapon viable to use with SoM as a white damage weapon.

Debilitating Arc – Breaks immob, allowing you greater flexibility in util choices.

Dust Strike – emergency blind if you’re out of end, same cost as Debilitating Arc so probably intended to be a situational/tactical choice between the two

Vault – Probably intended more as a gap closer/support trait proc opener for team fights. Seems a little expensive for what it does. Leap finisher does allow it to set up as a stealth combo so could have interesting team play interactions with the stealth attack?

Channeled Vigor – Any way you slice it it’s a lame heal. If you’re so low on end you need to use it, you’re not in a position where using it is actually safe. Reduce the healing ratio and give it something else. Pulsing blind or projectile reflect or something, IDK.

Reflexive strike – Traited, it’s an 8s recharge stun break as well as a block/reflexive knockdown. Looks like a really solid overall defense panic button.

Fist flurry – Super situational, but it’s unblockable, be a good CC follow up against anybody that runs passive block. Might be mechanically interesting if you can hold palm strike for a while. Good way to force the target to blow a dodge so you can exploit your advantage of extra dodges maybe?

Distracting Dagger – Looks intended for breaking heals to secure kills.

Impairing daggers – Slow makes it easier to exploit interrupt traits/gear and time dodges. Seems better as an opener than a gap closer.

Elite – Solid finisher. Means you don’t have to worry about stomping if you start the chain at the end of the opponent’s HP bar. If the chain times like autoattacks you could down the target with hit 1, miss hit 2 due to downed knockback, blind, etc, and still have time to run in and do hit 3 and finish them. Great roamer/skirmisher elite to full-kill targets and GTFO fast.

Overall staff seems like it’s got good bones, but testing needs to be done on those damage values they might be a little low, or they might be perfect when combined with the traits as a lesser damage/more durable melee set. It’s nice to see that the utilities/elite synergize well with existing sets and add real options as alternatives to deception utils.

It’s definately a better PvE set for non-condi builds just on virtue of spamming 2 and built in mobility, but it might need some cost/damage tweaks to be attractive for pvp.

Staff is garbage.

heal is garbage.

Some U-skills are really solid and powerful, elite is very good.

Tbh i don’t see staff replacing nor primary sets ( D/X, S/X) neither sbow, mostly cuz it’s nor more powerful than current sets neither has more tactical uses ( no poison, bad auto, slow skills and backward evade LOL).

Even if some skills damage are very high, their utility is terrible ( D/P has blinds and dazes and stealth combos, S/D has stealth, dazes and inf strike, forward evade which can be also used backward) while staff has nothing aside some combo finishers u can’t combo with cuz u have no fields LOL.

it may seem very cool at first sight but damage isn’t everything, not even in PvE, mind it in PvP where staff will be garbage if released this way.

The idea behind it is very cool, but weap skills needs to be better than this.

I can see S/D, S/P and D/P being very strong with daredevil elite spec instead of shadow arts/acro and 3rd u-skill and elite as physicals.

philheat.3956:

Yeah but it’s a dash with a traveled distance, i think it will be easier to interact with it instead of usual dodge (like withdraw for example).

Good thieves know that after “withdraw like” skills u need to time better your dodges in order to not be vulnerable.

Against a good “old” acro thief you had to play a guessing game in order to land your skills ( thx god that kitten got nerfed).

Current " gain endu for each ini spent" while wielding staff could make dodge thief broken again according to numbers.

But why am i complaining, current thief is a stealth bot based on stealth spam, even old acro thief was better when compared to this so i’m kinda okay with it.

philheat.3956:

It also really depends if there will be a skill to replace Shortbow #5 or you are locked to staff/shortbow, speaking about tornament builds.

BTW dash is not a full evade for the entire animation, it’s a 3/4 evade, it means there is a vulnerability at the end of the animation like other thief skills.

If spec line replaces every your dodges, ok you get 3 bars, but there are vulnerability inside.

BTW they are datamined, probably there will be some change, we need to wait for friday.

Dodging is a movement technique used to evade incoming attacks by quickly moving out of the way. A dodge consumes 50 endurance and players have a maximum of 100 endurance. You dodge 300 units over .75 seconds and can dodge in any direction. This speed is fixed and doesn’t change in combat like movement speed. If you are not moving, you will dodge backwards. Some mechanics prevent you from dodging, including being immobilized, immediately after being knocked back, or while under the effects of fear. In addition to its utility to avoiding attacks, several traits and some foods offer special benefits to characters after they dodge.

Dodge is 3/4 and dash replaces dodge, so you’ve no vulnerability frames.

Basically it will be a perma teleport thief, so you don’t actually need gap closers ( maybe).

Sbow btw is not only a movement bot weap, it’s like the most well designed thief weap by far and thief only aoe contirbution into ranged fights.

Even if sbow5 gets changed, people will still pick shortbow.

witcher.3197:

style.6173:

Maybe. The biggest question is what trait line would a thief be willing to give up in order to get this?

Only Deadly Arts and Trickery are mandatory, 3rd one is optional. SA is the next best thing and provides very decent sustain, but so does the elite spec.

deadly arts is not mandatory.

It has a couple of totally broken traits and that is all.

Mug is mandatory for the health payoff, but since you’ll gain 500 health on evades, i’m not sure you’ll need it.

CS is better for damage and physicals will be about damage ( prolly) so i guess CS could be better, but it mostly depends on staff damage coefficients.

style.6173:

Maybe. The biggest question is what trait line would a thief be willing to give up in order to get this?

Shadow arts, hands down.

I can easily see CS-Trickery-DD or DA-Trickery-DD being very good on already existing sets, and physicals will prolly be CC/damage oriented, covering the third spot on thief U-skills that has been a placeholder all time since release ( inf signet being the best, blinding powder getting better after stealth buff).

And if they give us something able to dwell with shadowstep, even better. I don’t see shadow refuge being replaced even in my wet dreams, it’s like the most op skill in the game.

Very good traits aside the grandmaster ones.

I really hope they change impact disruption cause it will be totally broken on X/P

Maris.3164:

Mrbig.8019:

Maris.3164:

So you guys are okay with mesmers bursting from stealth but not with thief stealth and Shadow Arts line? Interesting.

There are already plenty of threada crying about mesmer.

this is more about stealth spikes and yes, mes is included.

Have you played thief after the patch?

And how does me playing thief relate to top teams stacking stealth and instagibbing people with mes -thief with 0 counterplay ?

Fire

Air

Blood

Hydro

Leech

Geo

Doom

Vamp runes

Burn runes

Might runes

Passive procs runes ( vamp-air-scavanging, nightmare)

Then u nerf SA thief , Stealth and mesmer and game is somehow balanced ( aside some burn fix).

Kappa thx

Maris.3164:

So you guys are okay with mesmers bursting from stealth but not with thief stealth and Shadow Arts line? Interesting.

There are already plenty of threada crying about mesmer.

this is more about stealth spikes and yes, mes is included.

EremiteAngel.9765:

I dueled a slightly more skilled mesmer than me 8 times on my necro.
it ended 4 wins each.

A DRAW.

I think it is pretty even at the moment. and he was even slightly more skilled than I am. I won the first 4, but he adjusted quickly to my build and playstyle and won the next 4 thanks to his superior skills and adaptability.

so really, mesmers are not as terrible as you guys make them out to be.
all their interrupts/stuns? just counter with stability/stun breaks.

A traited necro which I am, has a 10sec shroud stunbreak with 1 3sec stability after, and I run 2 stun break utilities.

Really, if mesmers are so much pain, adapt and change your build/playstyle.

So pls stop with the nerf them threads.

Thank you.

Foot in the grave is terrible for power nec

evilapprentice.6379:

Mrbig.8019:

Rofl thief is not squishy at all, it’s the most forgiving class in the meta right now and will be even more after patch.

What discerns a bad thief from a good thief is the capability to apply pressure or not, surely not the survivability.

A good thief can LITERALLY never die even when focused by 3 people.

See, this is what happens when players make assumptions.

Have you played thief since the patch? With the damage flying around, the heal from Shadow Rejuv is almost nothing – any player that isn’t going full bunker can fart and deal 900-1200 damage to a thief. There’s also the fact that SE was changed to damaging conditions only (not the biggest deal in the world, really), and no longer cleanses on stealth (this is where the big deal is, it basically kills SE). Taking SA over CS also severely limits your damage potential, and the tiny bit of sustain you get from SA does not compare to the damage lost.

I don’t agree with your proposed stealth cap and auto-revealed suggestions, though I do agree that SA is a terribly designed tree. Instead of some silly stealth cap, SA should be redesigned as follows:
Any trait that encourages stealth camping (SE, SR) instead grants part of its effect on gaining stealth, and another portion on becoming revealed. For example, SR could heal for X on gaining stealth and grant 1 init, and then heal Y health per second while revealed. SE could remove 1 condition when gaining stealth, and 1 condition when revealed. This removes the SA based incentive to remain in stealth, and forces the thief to remain active in combat to gain the benefits. You could even backload the bulk of the benefits on the “on revealed” if needed. This is a much better solution than a stealth cap and auto-revealed suggestion.

i agree after patch thief is more squishy than it should, doesn’t change the fact SA is terrible and stealth camping is even more terrible.

Stealth needs to be fixed and thief buffed accordingly if needed.

It’s lame both in 1vs1 and high level pvp, where teams just stealth stack and instagib the unlucky guy.

Forsaker.9213:

This patch was smt i was w8 for and still necro in rly bad spot compered to others , sry but necro wont be meta simply because every other class will do same thing as necro but much better. Necro is a bad designed class.

Yes we got some fancy stuff , like rly nice blood lane or the crazy condi trasnfer/corupt. Problem is that condi necro is rly good in 1v1 but completly usless in teamfights , then again power necro just melt from dmg that we have atm.

Even in 1vs1 it’s not that good.

Totally farmed by rangers and mesmers.

LouDrew.1340:

Morwath.9817:

It’s not joke.
Forsaker was streaming together with Xerrex and Azani rolling everything due to multi Mesmer setup.

It wasn’t the fact that three very good players were all playing together on the same team curbstomping scrubs by using a brand new build that the meta has no had time to develop around?

Oh okay then, you’re right, that would make way too much sense.

Lol there’s nothing to develop around, mesmer is godmode

The Gates Assassin.9827:

Yesterday, backstab was bugged to reveal the thief if they used it. This was something that a lot of PvPers were hoping would happen. Few questions

1. If you played a D/P thief during this time, did the reveal feel fair?
2. If you played against a D/P, did the reveal make the build feel more fair?
3. Would you want this applied to all stealth attacks (Backstab, Surprise Shot, etc) if they are used (aka, hitting air = reveal)?
4. Would you want this applied to all stealth attacks if blocks, blinds, evades and invulns caused you to be revealed, but not hitting nothing?
5. Would you want this applied to all attacks that miss in stealth?

1. No
2. No
3. All or nothing, incosistency is wrong
4. This could be better but that’s not the point tbh.

Listen, problem is not being able or not to backstab the air.

problem is stealth camping, with all the passive benefits it adds

Even more since high level tPvP has became , since D/P thief came back into meta, a stealth camping game to explode the unlucky guy at the time.

Stealth stacking should be capped to something like 6-8 secs MAX and thief should get revealed regardless of a hit as soon as it ends.

That would balance shadow art and even team arena matches.

Deniara Devious.3948:

Mrbig.8019:

Imagine this in a team setting with 2-3 people ( u just need thief and mes tbh) opening from stealth.

10-12k from thief, 12-15 k from mes.

GG true skill

The one who lands the 1st attack wins. <— measure of true skill (sarcasm)

This has already been happening in WvWvW before the patch. Now I can imagine is just worse.

I have said it countless of times:
revealed should be 4 seconds also in WvWvW and stealth should have a maximum duration of about 8 seconds. After the max duration of stealth you get revealed if you still camp in stealth

Bolded ft

Shadow.1345:

Obsidia.5127:

evilapprentice.6379:

Obsidia.5127:

Shadow.1345:

Obsidia.5127:

Crit Strikes is by far the worst choice. It’s for PvE and I would be shocked if I saw anyone using it in sPvP. I mean, GOOD LUCK dealing with conditions with that build.

DPS showed this as one of the best lines for damage to combine with DA. Unrelenting Strikes + No Quarter for the massive uptime on Fury after getting the foe down to 50% and if you take Panic Strike + Executioner that is pretty much instant death on anyone once they reach that 50% health threshold.

I have to completely disagree with that statement and people that play on a high tier also disagree with that statement.

I guess you are NA.

“High Tier” EU certainly doesn’t take ‘Crit Strikes’ as a serious option at all from speaking to Levin, Sindrener and a couple of others from ORNG.

I would rather have incredible survivibility over some Ferocity… Fury doesn’t even matter as you can get permanent Fury with Pack Runes & Thrill of the Crime anyway.

Did they give you a signed document saying that they don’t take crit strikes? I mean, I wouldn’t normally insist on one, but considering the patch has been like for ~18 hours, I’m finding it hard to believe you’re citing precedent.

Seriously, the patch literally just dropped – neither you or anyone else knows without a shadow of a doubt if SA is superior to CS, or vice versa. You can pretend and be pretentious all you want, whatever you need to get through the day, but let’s just all settle down and see where things are in 2 weeks across all the classes.

It’s just obvious that SA is far superior to CS – Sorry.

We’ll see…

Yes I am from NA and that’s your opinion. Not that you having a differing opinion bothers me, in fact it’s quite the opposite. I find that people having differing opinions on what is superior shows their is some diversity and to me that’s a welcoming sign of things to come. DPS also in the feed did say SA was an option to take instead of CS so again it’s really more about what people prefer. Even in SA line there are things people see as superior, like Venomous Aura vs. Shadow’s Rejuvenation.

U see that’s the point.

Shadow arts is full of uber strong traits but the worst are those giving thief a practical immortality.

At least pre-patch (and pre air/fire bullkitten) if u went full SA u would hit like a wet noodle.

Now u have all that survivability WITH (old) zerk stats AND Executioner.

Steal-stab + procs = 10-12 k damage, from stealth, uncounterable aside random dodging.

No prof should be able to do this, thief has never been so broken, not even on release, not even in alfa with 17k backstabs: at least u would have died with 2-3 condies on yourself at those times.

I don’t really want to nerf shadow arts, we have the chance to fix thief and stealth openers once and for all.

NERF STEALTH DURATION TO 6-8 SECS AND GET REVEALED REGARDLESS OF HIT AS SOON AS U EXIT FROM STEALTH.

DO IT ANET, ASAP

jihm.2315:

thiefs have never being so overpowered since launch,
im searching for another game ,
see you again if i dont find any and thanks for uploading the patch before hot release
i wont buy hot or sit here and play another 6 months with this horrible balance
my last advice. give to classes a concept and some limitations and stop the power creep

Imagine this in a team setting with 2-3 people ( u just need thief and mes tbh) opening from stealth.

10-12k from thief, 12-15 k from mes.

GG true skill

Terrorsquad.2349:

JoshuaRAWR.4653:

mistsim.2748:

thieves are getting asploded left right and centre. thieves who i remember being very, very good before patch. it’s really rough for them right now.

it’s really interesting actually. we all cried when we saw thief and engie spec changes, yet theyre the ones struggling the most in this new age. they just cant live long enough =(

Definitely not true, i was garbage on a thief pre-patch and now I’m actually doing alright.

Thats actually because the rest is doing bad, trying to figure out whats best.

Thief didnt rly had that much changes. And not much choices anyway..

Thief had the best changes among all.

the capability to not waste stats on garbage traitlines.

Full damage with full utility.

Thieves are immortal right now and can spike from stealth for 10k+ backstabs ( leech-air-fire-steal- stab under 50% now can do even more, way more).

Old panic strike build had 34% crit chance and bad ferocity, with no heal/ini regen/damage reduction on stealth and no more stealth duration.

It now has all the above WITH 100 more ferocity, more health, 55% crit chance and executioner too.

Thinking of this in a team setting is just plainly broken, it’s broken by itself figure it out how can it be with 2-3 people opening from stealth on a single guy.

This needs to be nerfed to the ground, not thief but stealth overall: 6 secs max duration, reveal when stealth ends ASAP.

“thief didn’t really had much changes” my kitten .

Quadox.7834:

The primary reason for many why sigils (in particular perhaps air and fire sigils) HAD to stay in PvP was because tanky bruisers such as celestial builds would take over and things would never die. Many players with both medium and high skill levels have stated this opinion. And i agree.

But now, with this new patch, burst damage is much much higher and condi spikes also much much higher. So can we finally please remove sigils from PvP? This would reduce the burst damage while keeping the fun that this patch has introduced and at the same time making the game much more skillful. Obviously, we could keep some sigils if needed. The main culprits are in my mind:
Air
Fire
Geo
Doom
Energy
Leeching
Hydromancy

Please tell me your opinions and if i forgot some sigil!

Blood.

Vamp runes

Btw there are builds that are broken even without sigils and should be nerfed into the ground regardless ( panic strike shadow arts D/P, burn engi/ele, with mes being a close contender).

Aside that, sigils and runes are just increasing the brokeness.

Ok now they fixed backstab and that’s what we have.

A build like this shouldn’t exist.

Nerf stealth asap

Nyx.7342:

It’s definitely a bug. If you do four hs in a black powder field and then backstab in the air you get revealed debuff and stealth buff at the same time.

Anyways seems stupid. The hard counter to thieves is guards, and condi guards have become super aids with this patch. Guards win now by being able to blind a thief and have aegis up.

Not to say thief isn’t super strong now, just that this mechanic is bad especially for 1v1s. I can see this as somewhat of a balance in team fights, if you miss a backstab you have to get out of there kind of thing, but in 1v1s its stupid.

It’s also stupid stacking 12 secs of stealth while u gain more ini, take less damage, cleanse condi and heal.

D/P needs a nerf, a kittene.

Reveal on miss is stupid tho.

Phaeton.9582:

It’s a bug. Too bad for ppl that only want to play d/p tonight.

A bug in the right direction

still crashing

/15char

They just stand still most of the time.

Doesn’t matter how many times u command them, they’ll just stand still and do nothing

Browrain.7346:

I guess it’s time to get gud.

Teach me how to dodge procs plz

It doesn’t give fury.

Fix plox

I don’t even need to start the game, i don’t even need to play 1 match.

Nerfing runes and sigils IS A MUST AND SHOULD BE DONE ASAP.