Guild Wars 2

Gaudrath.6725:

Causality is linear, the flow of time is one directional, past->present->future. You cannot go back in time, you can only go forward. Time is also universal in space (for all intents and purposes).

All of these things are true, and all hold precisely no influence over this discussion of game mechanics.

I’m not going to reply with long blocks of text anymore, because I’ve said all I can say on the matter more than once.

You can roleplay what you like. Nothing is stopping you, least of all the game. It just so happens that some events (not many) have a particular time and place in-lore, and also happen to be replayable. The impact of this replay mechanic on the lore is none. If you happen to be in the area, and you happen to be a roleplayer who absolutely cannot accept replaying old events, then don’t take part—- that’s you not making use of the mechanic, which is your right.

But to complain because the mechanic exists?

Gaudrath.6725:

Uhm….
Each zone does exist at a separate point of time. And they’re not instanced, nor are players unable to go back.

And that is not inconsistent to you? You just threw the entire concept of cause-effect out the window with such nonsense. You know, the one our entire reality is pretty much based on?
I guess you just really, really like time travel. And no, its not “how it is done” – no MMO in existence does it this way and I challenge you to prove me wrong.

That’s not inconsistent to me. Its implications for cause-and-effect are precisely zilch, and it’s not time travel.

It’s a mechanic.

You can roleplay that you’ve already defeated Zhaitan in an earlier zone, because the majority of the stuff in the world around you doesn’t contradict that (including the presence of Risen post-Zhaitan). If you take part in the Tequatl fight, or fight off a Risen battleship attacking Fort Trinity, then just for a moment, remember you’re playing a game and replaying old content. Recognize that a mechanic is giving you that option. Not time-travel, and, because it’s a mechanic, not an in-story contradiction either.

But if you want to roleplay that it’s post-Zhaitan, then most of the world is made in such a way that it doesn’t contradict you.

The alternatives are worse. I don’t want a game in which the villains are never defeated. I don’t want a game that locks me out of old content. And I don’t want a game that disallows people from different stages of the story from playing together.

May I ask what your policy on dungeons is? Would you have dungeons only playable once (to avoid the contradiction of accomplishing the same goal twice), or would you just design the dungeons to only include stories that have no impact on the plot, and no named characters?

Dungeons are a prime example. The first time I played them, in my mind, it was happening as part of my character’s story. Every subsequent time, a mechanic was letting me replay it. It’s not hard to draw that line in my head.

The Norn don’t have a history of out-and-out warfare, but that’s definitely not because they’re the most peaceful playable race. They’re far from it. Individually, they seek to prove themselves through strength and killing, and their battling against the Dredge is pretty senseless.

They don’t have a history of warfare simply because they lack the organisational structures that the other races have. They don’t have leaders, they have champions, and they don’t really take part in wars as a race, but as individuals.

SirDrygan.1823:

Cliché. Is all I have to say about this idea.

Not as cliche as him being the unambiguously good guy. Don’t forget, that’s the most cliche of all.

OT: It’s a fantastic idea: ambitious, problem-solving, and pushes the PC into the limelight all at once.

If Trahearne fell into Nightmare, I’d be very impressed with the writing staff.

First time I’ve seen this thread.

First time I’ve had a repetitive-motion strain.

Mesmers are at work.

In that situation, I could roleplay personally that I’d already done the deed, but we couldn’t roleplay that scenario together (though of course we could very easily play together with our roleplays separate). If we were going to roleplay together, we’d have to roleplay that Zhaitan was still alive. Which I’d be fine with.

We could either; 1) roleplay separately but play together (keep our roleplaying to ourselves, as people tend to do anyway, the other player being just another adventurer or hero you meet on your journey); or 2) we roleplay together that Zhaitan is still alive.

Basically, I can roleplay whatever I like in my own head, even playing with other people.

(I’m sorry if I was a bit aggressive above, I didn’t mean to be!)

Nike.2631:

Don’t eat Risen. Just don’t. That many preservatives isn’t healthy for anybody.

I lol’d.

Anyway, I’d go with Karka if we’re allowed any species.

Norn would probably have a bit too much fat and sinewy muscle for me. Sylvari would probably taste more like very strong uncooked onion than lettuce… and there’s not enough meat on an Asura.

I’ll go for Human.

Thalador.4218:

@Neilos: You keep mentioning “hundreds of different factors” and telling me that my theory has “scarcely any facts,” but don’t go on to explain what those factors are or why my perspective lacks these so-called facts.

That’s exactly my point. We don’t have the facts. We’re drawing conclusions and declaring contradictions where scarcely any information exists. I’m not making any assertions here; I’m saying we can’t.

Thalador.4218:

Neilos, the Orrians never ever fought in the previous two Guild Wars. The whole scroll is phrased in a way to tell how mighty Orr was: when they did enter the third, the casualties eclipsed that of the previous two combined [, which was only fought between Kryta and Ascalon].

When I read the Orrian history scrolls, I didn’t take from it that Orr didn’t take part in the previous Guild Wars. It didn’t suggest that to me. It only discusses the Third.

Thalador.4218:

I won’t argue with your beliefs, but you don’t seem to acknowledge that in the Guild Wars universe civilians do choose to fight and in many cases are quite good at it. Another example to the ones I listed before: much of the Ministry of Purity came from the ordinary people.

Civilians choose to fight in many real-world scenarios, as well. I’m not saying it’s impossible; I’m saying it’s a stretch to assume a civilian population could defeat the forces of a Charr army, based solely on a little information about magical strength-enhancement in day-to-day life.

Oglaf.1074:

Maybe actually fight on them. Zhaitan sure looked big enough for us to be able to have some fun on his back. Perhaps fight some Risen living on him like fleas and attack “power points” on his body to weaken him before the laser salvo.

Sounds like the battle against Sin in FFX. That could work, very effective and epic way of tackling giant enemies!

Gaudrath.6725:

I’m sorry, but when you use examples from single player games to justify something in a MMO, you are either using a completely wrong analogy or don’t understand the issue.

Please, I’ve asked you twice before, stop it. It’s getting insulting now.

Gaudrath.6725:

The point is that you cannot use single player game mechanics in an MMO. There is no “old content” in an MMO. There are low level areas, which is completely different. When you go back to a newbie starting area in an MMO, you are not going back in time, you’re just going back in space. You are ALWAYS going forward in time in an MMO, just like real life. It’s called progression, and is necessary in order to maintain the level of social cohesion which makes the MMO games work in the first place.

So in the single player game, you can “travel back in time” by reloading an old save and playing from there, but in an MMO, you can just travel back (and show of your awesome gear to the amazed noobs and annoyed altoholics).

I never said MMOs use single-player mechanics. My point was that the mechanics in an MMO that allow you to go to revisit areas have just as much impact on lore as the mechanics in a single-player game that allow you to replay old content.

When I go back to the Plains of Ashford after defeating Zhaitan, yes, I can roleplay that he’s dead and I’ve just come home from battle. When I speak to an NPC who mentions Zhaitan remains alive, I’m aware that I’m seeing dialogue from earlier in the story. It’s really not difficult for me to draw that line in my head.

I’d really like you to drop the tone of “explaining” things to me. You sound really patronising when you say things like, “it’s called progression”. For the third time, It’s not that I don’t understand, it’s that I disagree with you.

I would also like the other ED fights to take a different route, to be honest. Not sure exactly what— they’ve set themselves quite a task with such massive enemies.

Gaudrath.6725:

No, you again show that you do not understand the difference between game genres. Single player games are not the same as MMO’s. That’s a fact. Game mechanics that work in single player games do not necessarily work in multiplayer ones. Why do you think no MMO in existence has a save game system?……
Do you understand now?

You’re not addressing my actual point. I’m not “showing I do not understand the difference”, I’m saying that in this one respect, they work the same. What differs is simply what that mechanic is. They both contain mechanics that allow you to revisit old content. Please stop pretending that I’m simply failing to grasp something you understand— that’s not the case.

Gaudrath.6725:

You just don’t get it, I can’t help you. Either this is your first MMO, or you’re not a roleplayer and don’t even get what canon and lore mean. You cannot have “lore” which allows for two contradictory versions of reality to coexist in the same time and space. Which happens every time a player kills Zhaitan and steps out into open world Orr.

That’s not lore, that’s a mistake. ANet just really dropped the ball on that one.

It’s not that I’m “not getting” something, it’s that I simply don’t agree with you. If it’s a contradiction to be able to replay old areas in GW2, then by the same merit it’s a contradiction whenever anyone replays old content in any game.

Whenever I reload an old save file in Final Fantasy, it’s a contradiction, because those events have already happened. Whenever I play a challenge room in Portal 2, it’s a contradiction, because the story is over and that doesn’t make sense. You’ve drawn an arbitrary line between GW2 and other games in which you can revisit old content (which is almost every game ever), even though in GW2 as with other games, it is simply a game mechanic to let you go back to old areas.

Thalador.4218:

@Neilos: Not only my belief, but the evidence that indeed there was a more logical route and/or scenario. The problem is that right now it looks as if not much thought was put into fleshing out these events and making them align well with Guild Wars 1 lore. Instead, it feels like they were simply dumped into the game because they sounded cool.

You provided convincing speculation, it’s true, but it’s all speculation. There could have been a hundred different factors, as there are in any war. My point is, there’s no reason to label it a “contradiction”. Its just seemingly counterintuitive (from a point of view that has scarcely any of the facts)— and even then, that’s only if you assume the time saved by going that route justifies the fact they’d have to face the Orrian navy before reaching the city.

Thalador.4218:

Correction: Orrians never wanted victory in the Guild War. They wanted to stop hostilities. They rose to defend themselves only when the other two warring kingdoms brought their petty war to them. And because of Orrian involvement, the casualties eclipsed that of the previous two combined. I’d bet my money that if Orr had wanted to assert dominance over the Kryta and Ascalon, it would’ve succeeded.

Well, that’s only the story of Orr’s national involvement in the final Guild War. There were at least two Guild Wars before that, almost certainly before King Reza was in power, and the Orrians weren’t stomping the other human nations. I also imagine Orrian Guilds would’ve been battling for non-humanitarian reasons prior to Reza’s involvement in the Third Guild War. I seem to remember reading somewhere that Guilds of that era frequently acted with little regard for law or government, even going to battle.

Thalador.4218:

I disagree with the terrified bit. Sure, children, the elderly and some others should’ve been evacuated (cough Orrian fleet cough), but I seriously doubt that most young adults would’ve huddled up in a corner and started whimpering. Humanity of those ages believed the charr to be nothing but primitive beasts eating and sacrificing their human prisoners (which they did a lot, though), so they should’ve known that apathy and cowardice in the face of the enemy that threatened their lives and their kingdom just lessens the chance of their own survival.

I’d also like to point out that neither Separatists nor the majority of the bandits (the civilians disillusioned with the system) are soldiers, yet they are pretty capable at setting ambushes and fighting – and they don’t even have the magical expertise that Orrians had.

All in all, I do think the Orrian civilians had both the means and the merit to at least slow down if not halt the charr invasion, but it wasn’t thought over by the writers.

I stand by what I said above: I don’t think you can really say civilians, even ones magically strength-enhanced, are more than enough of a match for a vast, trained army.

Particularly since magic was commonplace in warfare already anyway. What was striking about the Orrian use of magic wasn’t its power, it was its commonness.

Gaudrath.6725:

You cannot have an inconsistent open world. You cannot create canon with paradoxes – it’s a poor canon then.

There is no ‘inconsistent open world’, and stating it as fact and saying ‘end of discussion’ doesn’t make it so! This was never about inconsistencies in the world, and always about mistaking a mechanic for lore.

A lot of the early points you bring up aren’t actually contradictions as such, but rather your belief that a more logical route existed. The route the Charr took may have been the best one for them for numerous reasons we’ll never know. Likewise, they may not have used the Searing cauldrons within 12 hours for other reasons. Perhaps it takes a lot of charging or something— in Pre-Searing, we can see the Shamans buzzing around their cauldron, and it seems very likely to me that a force as powerful as the Searing can’t be fired off easily.

Thalador.4218:

Exhausted, ferocious invaders & primitive pyromancers winning over nation of disciplined and highly magical superheroes in battlefields completely unknown to the invaders…

You’re extrapolating this “disciplined and highly magical superheroes” bit from very little information, here. It’s well-established that while the Orrians made magic commonplace in their everyday lives, the use of magic in warfare was widespread anyway. Charr magic may have been primitive but its effective.

Besides which, civilians with magically-imbued strength do NOT equal an army to me. There’s nothing to suggest ‘discipline’— I would assume the very opposite. I would picture civilians, magically-enhanced or not, facing a vast army of vicious soldiers and pyromancers, and I’d put my money on the Charr.

Besides, the Orrians’ magical proficiency didn’t secure them an easy victory in the actual Guild Wars, did it? I think we can assume that even if magic is commonplace in the everyday lives of Orrians, that doesn’t mean they have a distinct advantage in warfare, especially when the army itself is elsewhere and we’re relying on civilians. Civilians aren’t disciplined. They’re terrified.

Just adding to the above; who’s to say the other ED’s won’t be aware of Zhaitan’s fall, and be all the more cautious or aggressive as a result?

If there was something like this, I imagine it would very quite far down the line, but hey, it’s fun to speculate

If I was to guess, I’d say they’d tailor the missions to the races, to show a fraction of each race’s history and add some cultural depth.

Human: Perhaps playing through the fleeing/ evacuation from Lion’s Arch as it’s hit by tidal waves and flooding. If it hadn’t been covered in a novel already, I’d suggest the truce talks or the quest for the Claw of the Khan-Ur, a mission similar to ‘The Tengu Accords’ from the original Bonus Mission Pack.

Charr: Here’s an easy one. Kalla Scorchrazer’s involvement in the battle against the Flame Legion! Some retrospective on that period would be fantastic.

Asura: Perhaps a bonus mission showing their underground homes from before EotN, their previous way of life. I don’t see much else that could be as interesting. This is unlikely, of course, because if any Bonus Missions were to be released, they would be most likely to bridge the gap between GW1 and GW2.

Sylvari: Here’s a challenge; a race without more than thirty years of history to draw from. I can only think of playing as one of the Firstborn, maybe dealing with Faolain’s fall into Nightmare.

Norn: The loss against Jormag, the dislodging of his tooth, and the loss of their home in the Far Shiverpeaks would be incredible.

Other great options:

1) The death of Molenin and the destruction of what he stood for by his successors;
2) Dominion of Winds internal politics, giving us some information on a possible future playable race;
3) The secret story behind the Great Collapse in Divinity’s Reach;
4) A mission following the doomed Stone Dwarves’ unending war against the Destroyers underground.

Hrmmm— take a look at that map again. If what I said was correct, that would place a rather large body of water in Elona. You can see the wide river that cuts through the Crystal Desert (i’d guess that stems from Palawa Joko redirecting the Elon River up there), but just below that seems to be another body of water.

Anybody know why this might be…?

I think you’re misunderstanding something here. The Karka event occurring Post-Zhaitan doesn’t make anybody’s personal story “non-canon”; the same rule applies as always applied, which is, your own story is the canon for you, while my personal story is the canon for me.

WarriorOfAsgard.3705:

I’ve only seen one screen shot of the scepter and it’s hard to be certain. This is a flattened texture of the globe pulled from the .dat file.

Is it just me, or does this seem to match up? The landmass central towards the bottom is Cantha, and that tiny group of islands to the North-West of Cantha is the Battle Isles. Just about central to the entire map is Istan, which means Tyria-Elona is the South-Westernmost chunk of the largest continent.

Maybe I’m just seeing what I want to see.

I wouldn’t want to fight an Elder Dragon’s head with my regular weaponry. It’d be far less impressive. Whatever the final fight lacked in challenge, it had great visual spectacle, which a battle against Zhaitan’s head with our swords would lack.

The Domain of Anguish had some things going for it… but what it brought with it above all else was an attitude of elitism that was difficult to match within GW.

Not the fault of the place, I know.

PopeUrban.2578:

The fight with Zhaitan? Kind of an anti-climax. The entire instance? Actually really well done.

QFT. I agree that the fight against Zhaitan is too easy, etc (though the spectacle of him clutching the tower is a great image), but people don’t give the rest of the instance the respect it deserves. I came away from Arah Story for the first time feeling incredible, and though it wasn’t as a result of the Zhaitan fight, the feeling came from fighting multiple champions aboard the airship and numerous other awesome encounters.

It’s true. Zhaitan’s boss fight was anti-climactic. But, to be honest, I can’t remember the last time a final boss fight was truly epic. I look across my PC game shelf & I see only 4 out of the 17 single-player games had end boss fights that did justice. I know this doesn’t let Zhaitan off the hook, it’s no excuse, but give the rest of the mission some credit! It felt epic!

Gaudrath.6725:

I argue that basically, more logical and consistent your story and player experience, the better.
You seem to disagree.

No, that’s a strawman. My argument was always that there is no illogic and inconsistency in the storyline of GW2 as it is. Including a mechanic to allow players to revisit old content has been a staple of most non-restrictive games for decades, even if it’s just multiple save files.

Gaudrath.6725:

Instead I proposed that there be MANY epic fights. Long, epic, uphill struggles against these terrible forces that want to devour the world. Armies of dragon minions marching across multiple fronts, with the actual possibility to see stuff such as:

-major cities actually under siege
-dragon minions taking over an entire zone and forcing players to push them back (Orr style)
-dragon armies cascading invasions (for example Orr->Sparkfly Fen->Bloodtide Coast->Siege of Lion’s Arch), with dynamically adjustable content (instead of chasing away drakes and pirates in Bloodtide Coast, now you have to chase away undead beating on the bulwarks hastily set up by the Pact and the Guard), where if one zone is run over, the invasion spills into the next
-NPC generals leading these armies, which can be defeated in epic combat (see the random name generator idea)
-solo players can, WvW style, disrupt enemy supply lines or go deep behind enemy lines to try and assasinate key enemy leaders to slow down or help turn back these invasions

Now, you describe something pretty cool, here. You’re also describing something without a linear story.

ANet are aiming to create a series of games with storylines, beginnings and endings. Explorable worlds, like GW1, but massively multiplayer, and each one telling the next chapter of the story.

They could not do that with your model.

Besides this, another problem would be that with your never-ending event chain (pushing forward and being pushed back), progress would be meaningless. You would be progressing towards nothing storyline-wise. You would simply take a keep, defend it, perhaps take another, and when you logged on again the next day it would all be lost.

That works fantastically in WvW, because of its competitive nature. I believe most people would find it to be an inferior PvE experience.

It would also be incredibly restrictive to what you could do in the PvE world. Join one of the fronts in the never-ending war, maybe defend Nageling from a (randomly-named) Giant for the umpteenth time…. but nothing truly personal, because any actual advance in the War relies on huge zergs completing generic and randomly-generated events.

You could have no villains with any true meaning to them, like Kudu or Faolain or Baelfire, unless these villains were perpetually alive, never defeated. You could have no dungeons, unless these dungeons can only be completed once, and affect the world directly when they’re done.

This doesn’t seem like a recipe for increasing the sense of accomplishment to me. It sounds like a recipe for vastly diminishing it… and that’s aside from the fact that you’re describing an utterly different game, one without a linear story, one completely alien to what ANet set out to do.

Gaudrath.6725:

Not at all, but I am not surprised you really just skimmed across what I wrote, eager to argue. What I actually said, is that ANet should have made the world story more open-ended and player driven, and personal story more tailored to each character and more personal. The personal story should in no way seriously affect happenings in the open world.

This is either the second or even the third time you’ve started off a post claiming I’m not reading what you’ve written, etc, etc. Stop it. I’m reading your posts, and nothing you’re writing is addressing the issues I’m bringing up. You’re using that tactic to make me and my argument seem lazy.

Gaudrath.6725:

The notion that the player must be “crowned king” or otherwise highly elevated in order to have a sense of accomplishment is an utterly false one. Especially in an MMO, the sense of accomplishment should primarily come from things one has achieved in the social environment, .i.e the open world.

Case in point, I don’t care if you killed Zhaitan – the act is meaningless, because its success is predetermined. Soloing certain lesser champions is more difficult than killing Zhaitan and gives a greater sense of personal accomplishment.
That is because the possibility to fail is an important part of the sense of having accomplished something. This possibility is not presented to the player in any shape or form during the personal storyline. The choices are linear, few and predictable, and they all ultimately converge to the same conclusion – in other words, there are no choices and every “personal” story is the same.

Well, every personal story is not the same, there are numerous variations, but I get your meaning— they’re limited, and you don’t have the freedom to shape your adventure the way you want.

Again, I’ll say that you could only accomplish this in a meaningful way by sacrificing the linear story altogether—- this just isn’t what ANet were trying to accomplish in their PvE, and it’s not the game I want to play.

Gaudrath.6725:

So again. Personal storyline should have been created in such a way that it offers true choice and variation to the player, but not so that it interferes with the open world and the larger events in it.

You seem to be speaking now about a different issue. You brought up before that you weren’t happy that the death of Zhaitan did not have a noticeable affect on the open world. I took this to mean that you wanted either 1) a story that effects the world in a lasting way for everyone, or 2) a story that contains no epic events.

What other option is there? You’ve not actually provided a solution that satisfies your criteria realistically. When we create a threat, do we then have to keep it alive indefinitely…?

Gaudrath.6725:

Open world, on the other hand, should have been created with a much greater degree of player interaction and impact in it (the before mentioned war against dragons throughout the world), with game-changing epic events reserved only for most special occasions, such as Blizzard did with Cataclysm, or ANet did with the Karka event. They changed the world forever, and they did it only once.

Presumably when you talk here about players effecting the world around them, you don’t mean through personal story (which you said above should not be crafted in such a way that it effects the open world).

Events, of course, do affect the world around you, in that they affect whether camps or cities are accessible or contested. The events surrounding Skrittsburgh are a good example, or the Suwash event chain. Are you suggesting they just do this more? Make the world more fluid, more contested, etc?

You see, I’d agree with that, but that wasn’t all you suggested. You were talking earlier about logical inconsistencies, which was what brought me in in the first place. You were saying it was an inconsistency when the same named creature is killed for a second time, so these event chains, presumably, could only happen once.

Gaudrath.6725:

Such special events should NOT be available for players to determine, especially when it comes to removing something from the world, such as an elder dragon. Same goes for directly confronting one. You can have godlike beings that can smash continents apart, or you can have loot pinjatas for paltry bands of players to defeat. Not both at the same time.

Well, paltry bands of players, entire armies armed with airships and megalasers, but I get what you’re saying.

What’s the alternative? You still haven’t answered that question. Do we leave Zhaitan alive, simply to justify the continued existence of Risen? Do we leave every large threat alive just to avoid suspending our disbelief enough to accept that someone can replay old content in a game?

So you’d like a multiplayer, open-world game in which you can accomplish epic feats that genuinely affect the world around you in a lasting and large-scale way, with such feats being completely unique to your own character?

I assume after someone’s completed such a world-changing feat, other people cannot complete said feat, because that would be contradictory. So an impossibly-large team at ANet must work night and day to keep creating these events, as they can only occur once each.

I’m just trying to get this straight, so I can get to creating this masterpiece.

When people mention the lack of customisation options we could have for the Kodan, I only really see a problem with fur colour. You could have plenty of customisation for their faces, body type, eyes and noses, etc.

And even with fur colour… look at the Asura! If they had been left out as a playable race, we’d be counting them out because there’s not enough customisation options for a race that are all just gray.

Gaudrath, you’re just describing completely different ideas for games now, ones that do not relate to GW2 or what ANet have tried to do.

They went a route that has just as much logical consistency as most other games out there. A linear story, with elements that are personal and others that are communal, and the ability to revisit old areas.

May I ask, in an open-world game, would you insist that every ‘event’ happen only once? Is it too unrealistic that a giant attacks the town of Nageling several times a day, or are we, perhaps, supposed to take this with a pinch of salt? Is it unrealistic to have a named boss die multiple times, and therefore, the game should forsake named enemies altogether?

Even in instanced gameplay, we have the option to revisit it. To restrict that would be arbitrary, and would serve no purpose, much like restricting what can happen in the open-world to only things that make sense at any stage of the storyline.

I laughed out loud at “worshipping flaming crabs”. I really did.

Anyway, on-topic… it’s a really counter-productive, bigoted, illogical, sexist stance for the Flame Legion to take. It’s the stance they always had, and it was the attitude in the Flame-dominated Charr society of the past.

It’s also the same attitude that dominated most human societies in the real world, throughout most of history, and dominates many of them still.

It’s pretty plausible and realistic, really.

Narcemus.1348:

I would say the best you can look forwards to in Gaudrath’s MMO is a single wide open world with a bunch of rats in it that you can kill, and you’ve got a few people that are in the high ranking rat killing guild that everyone has to bow to as they walk by.

That model’s already taken by a certain famous game that shall remain unnamed, I’m afraid

I’ll just say, I’d be very interested in a Lore-centric AMA.

@Gaudrath:

You believe there’s an inconsistency, essentially, in allowing people to revisit “old” content (story-wise) in an open-world game. I believe there is no inconsistency, that it is a purely a mechanic.

May I ask, what would you prefer? That once content is complete, it be locked to people who have progressed past it?

Or, maybe, that nothing in an MMO story happens that is of any major significance, to avoid paradoxes?

If I play the CoF dungeon (story mode), I kill the Flame Legion boss, Baelfire. If I enjoy that mission, and want to play it again a few months later because I liked the boss fight, I can fight Baelfire for a second time.

In my mind, there is no inconsistency there. A game mechanic has allowed me to do it twice. The story has not resurrected him. Would you disagree?

HawkMeister.4758:

Awesome.
Still hope for implementation of the “Underflow Server” to gather deserted maps from all servers into one, for fun´s sake. Basically the opposite of our current Overflow Servers.

That…. would be a very good idea! A great idea!

OT: Looking forward to updates

(Would like a quick review of the Medium SE exotic armour if possible…. take a look at the helm, the texture there looks terrible, while pretty much every other exotic armour is perfectly made. Cost me a lotta tokens! )

Gaudrath.6725:

Please go back and reread my earlier post where I explained exactly why a book and a game are not the same where narrative is concerned.

Here’s what you said:

Gaudrath.6725:

Your book analogy only illustrates that you still do not understand the concept of adapting the mode of storytelling to the medium in which the story is being told. You cannot apply conventions of a non-interactive narrative, to an interactive one. You can try, but then you mess it up.

First of all, you don’t actually make any specific points; you merely say I can’t apply the “conventions of a non-interactive medium to an interactive one”. I’m not applying “conventions”; It’s not a “convention” of literature or film that you can re-read old chapters or re-watch old scenes.

In a non-multiplayer game, you can re-play old levels, without impacting story.

In a multiplayer game, you can do the same. The only difference is that the game is not level-based, for the sake of leaving all content open and available, and letting you play with others.

How is this a contradiction!?

Gaudrath.6725:

I also covered pretty much all of the points you just made. You cannot have a linear narrative sharing and changing major elements within a non-linear medium.

You covered none of my points. You misinterpreted by analogy, claiming again that I’m equating book and game “conventions”, even though all I’m doing is stating that the mechanic that allows you to revisit old content in a game has no greater storyline impact than when you re-read an old chapter (or, if you prefer, re-play an old level in a single player game). That’s not a convention. It’s possible to revisit old content in every medium that exists, unless that content is immediately locked to you once you’ve experienced it once (which would be arbitrary and restrictive).

It’s a linear narrative. A series of events. You can miss bits out, and do them later, because the killing of Tequatl, in all honesty, is not that important to the overall plot of the game. Just like you can complete almost every modern game without taking part in every activity that game offers.

I’m going to amend my previous position to include Naga. They would be perfect, suitably unique and with an accompanying body of lore. Much like the Tengu, they’d also be a great introduction to GW2-era Canthan lore.

The only problem would be the non-humanoid model and the implications that has for armour… but only legguards and greaves would have to be amended for a snake-race, really. Hopefully not beyond the pale.

Those aren’t examples of “poor storytelling”. They’re examples of games in which no-one can really claim there’s a story inconsistency, just because the mechanics are there to allow you to revisit old parts of the game.

You’re failing to grasp the basis of the book analogy, which applies to books, films, games, truly anything with a linear narrative. I’m simply saying, you can revisit old content yourself as much as you want, and however you want. That doesn’t mean it happens twice in the story. It’s as simple as that. That is not a “convention of a non-interactive medium”, it’s a truth of any linear narrative.

Even if a game DID lock you out of old content (like FFX did, after you awoke the Dark Aeons). You could just start a new game file and play through the game again. This would not mean that all the events of the game happen twice! It just means that you’re playing through content you’ve already played!!

My worst experience by far was Arah, Path Four. Five hours spent, just to meet the brick wall that is Simin. Five. Hours.

For about 9 tokens that I got from bags.

Not happy that day.

(Second worst might be CM story mode, which is the only story mode dungeon I didn’t enjoy. Mostly my experience of GW2 dungeons has been very positive— it’s just these two examples that cause me grief).

Gaudrath.6725:

I am listening, but your arguments just do not make sense. Tequatl can be killed repeatedly. Ingame this is explained by the fact that he is, like the Claw of Jormag and the Shatterer, not a unique enemy, but in fact a type of enemy, a liutenant. We can kill them, but a new one will arise to take their place, as long as the Elder Dragon behind them is alive.
Now, explain to me, if I kill Tequatl, then kill Zhaitan, then keep on killing Tequatl about 20 more times, which one of those times predates and which one succeeds the death of Zhaitan? If you say that all of them predate the death of Zhaitan, then your analogy of time travel just got literal. If you say that some of them succeed the death of Zhaitan, the original question of “but we just killed the reason these things exist” pops up.

What is suggested about the Claw of Jormag/ Shatterer is never suggested about Tequatl. He’s a named lieutenant, like all of Zhaitan’s lieutenants, and he is only ever killed once.

In story, he is killed once. In mechanics, you can kill him more than once, because the game mechanics allow you to revisit old areas. My book analogy holds. You’re revisiting an old chapter if you kill Tequatl after Zhaitan.

Gaudrath.6725:

Either way, you end up with a paradox. Because you cannot mix the two types of narrative in a single game, have major overlapping elements and still expect the result to be seamless and logical. However, I have written a number of extensive posts on the subject already and am in danger of spinning in circles, so I will leave it at that.

It’s easy to have more than one type of narrative in a game. Take Arkham City; it has the primary story, linear for the most part, and it has the Challenge Maps, in which you battle The Riddler in various other challenging ways.

Now, the Riddler is defeated in the main story. Playing the challenge maps after the main story wouldn’t make sense! But it’s fine— that is purely a mechanic. Anyone playing the game is going to know that lore-wise, those challenge maps happen while the Riddler is still at large. IE, before the end of the main story.

The game lets you play the challenge maps afterwards, or whenever you kitten want, because it’s not arbitrarily restrictive. People can separate story and mechanics.

Another example, a little more classic: Super Mario 64. You play through the castle, you grab Stars from the levels, you go and fight Bowser. At the end, you can revisit the old levels and go for whatever Star you want, even ones from bosses you’ve already beaten.

Does this mean the boss has been resurrected?! Why is he still guarding the Star if Bowser is already beaten?! No, none of that is implied at all. You’re merely playing through content again. It’s a mechanic to allow you greater freedom. It implies nothing about story.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

The experience, outside the personal story, is very much sandbox in GW2 – with the personal story being linear. But the story itself – the lore itself, the order of events – is very much linear.

And in this sense, while you may experience killing Zhaitan before Tequatl, Tequatl dies before Zhaitan.

^ This. Essentially, the order of major events does not change, and the storyline is linear. Experiencing the same thing twice does not mean it happens twice, as with a book or a film.

Travelling around the world, meeting minor NPCs and doing jumping puzzles— this can happen in any order you like (unless it’s a primary quest or has direct implications for the storyline).

So, no, GW2 is not entirely nonlinear. It provides you with many varied ways of experiencing its world, but still tells a major, linear story.

Good lord, no. The second the trinity’s introduced, it’d become a hundred times more difficult to form a group.

WvW & sPvP would be ruined by it too.

The lack of the trinity is one of the best things about the game.

It does seem to me that either the Inquest or the Flame Legion are the greatest threat. The Flame Legion have the muscle, but they lack the world-spanning vision of the Inquest.

The Bandits and their White Mantle manipulators seem perhaps the least of a threat, if only for their lack of organisation and their reliance on common criminality. The Sons of Svanir, due to the individualist nature of Norn, also seem to lack the “global threat” stature of the Inquest and Flame Legion.

Gaudrath, you’ve said you have no problem with suspending your disbelief, and yet when you bring up these ‘issues’, they only become problems if you take everything purely at face value.

Would you prefer that characters who had defeated Zhaitan couldn’t go back to fight his Lieutenant? This is something inherent to the multiplayer game, dude. More than one person can play, and yet they have access to the same content. For it to work, yes, you have to suspend your disbelief slightly, which is exactly what you’re refusing to do. It’s not a contradiction, it’s a mechanic, and it works fine and allowed ANet to do a lot of stuff they couldn’t otherwise.

Say, for example, that I read a book. Then, when I’m finished, I go back and re-read my favourite chapter. Gasp! Does this mean that these events happened twice?! I read them twice, and mechanics have to be taken at face value! The events must have happened twice! No. It doesn’t work like that.

Gaudrath.6725:

So you are saying that glaring contradictions arising from having a storyline where a major world nemesis is killed and yet also requiring that same nemesis to be there for a multitude of players is no real issue?

That’s right. It’s no real issue. It doesn’t have to be any greater issue than arises when two people read the same novel and agree, “hey, this doesn’t make sense if both of us take it completely at face value! Perhaps we should both assume we’re reading a STORY, rather than only accepting that which can be taken solely on our behalf!”

They’re NOT glaring contradictions. They’re elements unavoidable to the genre of storytelling. Moan and create problems if you want, but that doesn’t insubstantiate the genre.

Gaudrath.6725:

So who took down Zhaitan, and who is the second in command of the Pact forces… me or you? Or Bob?

Oh, come on, now. This isn’t a contradiction or a problem with the format of storytelling— it’s just refusing to overlook something that’s no real issue. I don’t think the MMO genre should forsake grand plotlines because some people can’t disassociate reality from fiction.

Gaudrath.6725:

And how come risen still attack full force, their fury still completely unabated by Zhaitan’s defeat?

Quite simply, they don’t.

If you’re talking about the place I think you are, it’s involved in the personal story for Whispers initiates (like myself).

I may be wrong. I’ll have to check.

Gaudrath.6725:

Simple and honest answer is: it doesn’t make sense, and this is the main reason epic personal storylines will never work in an MMO… you just have to keep on making stuff up to cover all the inconsistencies that keep cropping up.

I don’t see any inconsistency, I really don’t. I never expected all the Risen to just fall down like the aliens at the end of The Avengers.

They have lost their commander, their creator, and their only source of initiative. They’ll be cleared out by Pact forces, or even just fall apart by rotting. But there was never any reason to think they’d immediately all fall down.

Snowy.9580:

are not even Christians

What on earth does this have to do with anything? As if only Christians celebrate Christmas.

And that’s irrelevant anyway, as the OP stated ‘Happy Holidays’, and the game itself celebrates “Wintersday”.

Verteiron.8734:

He didn’t lift it. He COMMANDED it to rise, because he’s an ancient unspeakable force of pure magic and that’s how he rolls.

QFT. Dragons consume magic, and they use magic in lieu of physical force, I believe. I never imagined he physically lifted the place.

And, just as Abaddon was restrained by Balthazar-forged shackles, Zhaitan was starved and also hit by an Asura megalaser just previously to the fight.

Zhaitan’s death is immensely important— he was their creator, their overall commander, and the driving force behind the attempted invasion of the rest of Tyria. Without him they will almost certainly die out, cleared by Pact forces and more.

The Risen don’t just fall down like Star Wars Battle Droids when the mind behind them is destroyed (which is a very overused trope, and one I’m glad GW2 didn’t go in for). There’s no reason to believe they’d just fall down, or lose all their aggression immediately.

I believe it was stated by someone in Orr that many Risen are stuck in a kind of mock re-enactment of their past lives, too. They have a severely-limited, almost mindless existence without Zhaitan, I imagine.