(edited by Nicholas S Lin.6187)
It wasn’t a wrong assumption. If the Proph writers had meant for it to be some Charr homeland, they certainly would have mentioned it at least once in the whole campaign. There was never any indication, whether through the lore nor through direct quotes, of it having been some ancestral homeland of the Charr. You’d think, at any point in that long saga, you’d hear a Charr say something to the effect of “We’re taking our home back!” You don’t because they aren’t from there…well that and they couldn’t even speak the common tongue. It probably would have been a better story had the writer decided to do that, but they didn’t.
Definition of homeland? Just use my Rome example. Oh and Ascalon is Ascalons homeland, not humanities in general.
I’m asking for an actual definition. Any specific definition will equally support charr homeland if it can support human homeland.
So, how do we know it was nobodies homeland before humanity took it?
Based on available evidence its clear that it was Humanity that lay claim to Ascalon as a homeland first. And thus built many cities on said land. The claim is widely accept by every human. From the modest farm-hand right up to and including the reigning monarch of the day right up to King Adelbern. In fact “For Ascalon” is a common greeting used by all Ascalonian humans towards any other human or friend.
At no time did the pc see any evidence that any significant group of npc humans or any npc in fact claiming otherwise during the whole Prophecies campaign. It can be seen , taken together there is at least circumstantial evidence that it was Humans that formed the first legitimate claim to the land and held it up to and including the events of the “Eye of the North”.
Again, who would teach the humans all the secrets? How could Ascalon even capitalize on it, given how their resource base and population was almost entirely destroyed? Note, the ability to make Deldirmor metals? Lost until just recently when a Norn found it again.
I still see no explanation for how or WHY humanity would gain all this knowledge.
Really?
Odgen Stonehealer is both a Deldrimor Dwarf and a healer by profession. This gives him at least two skill sets. But only one is relevant here, other than as a healer that would also make him a learned scholar. As an obviously highly educated member of his race he can read and write his own language thus all and any Dwarven texts can be translated through him.
And finally as a result of him take part in the slayer of “The Great Destroyer” he would have as a result dedicated the rest of his life to study its origins and all related artifacts. As a good friend to Gwen and Kieran he could see in her and her partner the fire to make things right. Thus he would have done what he could for humanity – starting with assisting in the recovery of the Deldrimor Legacy.
This group included Vekk an Asuran uber-genious engineer+scientist and Ogden is at least an able Engineer among the Deldrimor Dwarves. And both Kryta and human-Ascalon had 200 years to assimulate the technology for both military and civilian applications.
It would be the join effort of the best minds Kryta and human Ascalon had available during the course of the time between the end of the War in Kryta till the events of the current game.
The hero group mere delievered the technology for Kryta and the Ascalonian survivors to reverse-engineer all the technology and engineering know-how that could have been salvaged – NOT just gun-powder. For starters mining tech and smelting, refining of metals and chemicals. Dwarfs are known for all this stuff and more. All of which were transferred for the exclusive use of humanity and their allies.
(edited by Nicholas S Lin.6187)
Our Hero group were involved in the “War In Kryta” period. And the Ebon Vanguard have operated away from the direct influence of King Adelbern and his court. They are made of many survivors of the humans war with the Charr.
It was a time of war and desperation and our group was also sympathetic to Prince Rurik’s mission to take as much of his homeland with him into Kryta and paid the price with his life. Thus the play character along with the player group would have shared the Dwarven legacy with Kryta through their friendship of Salma and her Shining Blade. They was an likely unofficial alliance between the Ebon Vanguard and Kryta as a result of this. This is a logical extrapolation.
But of course the lore writers ignored this to destroy humanity in the two Kingdoms (-since we do not know if the player-character and the hero group had any contact with Orr before the Cataclysm). In the course of the 200 odd years in between.
Remember all the hero group would have done anything and everything to strengthen humanity in Tyria. And the Deldrimor Dwarven Legacy will go a long way towards that.
(edited by Nicholas S Lin.6187)
Based on the events of Guild Wars: Eye of the North it is clear that it was the Ebon Vanguard through Gwen and Keiran Thackery’s friendship and professional relationship with Vekk and Ogden Stonehealer that indicates that it is Human Ascalon that would show most interest in the legacy of the Deldrimor Dwarves.
Since humans had Mages and Engineers working at the court of the King of Human Ascalon. This is not lore I’ve made-up its implied by the writers of the the GW/GW2. Since is obvious that due to the Searing all major surviving human organisations within the Ascalon region would have moved to Ascalon City for protection.
Its clear that your understanding of Lore is extremely mis-guided and limited in nature since you have not shown proof as to why the established lore is sound.
To be specific: Pyre Fierceshot is Charr Ranger by profession. And to my knowledge and re-collection had shown no engineering or science mastery at all. And the Searing cauldrons were the gift of the Titans – agents of Abbadon. There is also no proof that the Charr were capable of smelting metals since they as a civilisation were essentially nomadic and very tribal – as seen in-game – including cut-scenes throughout the original game.
I base my extrapolations on established events as presented in Guild Wars(1) and its expanded content. My last few post I’ve been careful avoid adding anything that is not supported by established lore in is logical extrapolations.
I could have easily added my complete wish list of lore changes and adjustments. These omissions were necessary to limit the length of my current postings. And indeed those interested need do a search of my name in these forums.
And so what I have written in the forums is NOT lore according to me. Is not Lore based exclusive on my own writings.
What my GW/GW2 forum postings have always been about is illustrating what should have been a fair and balanced extension of GW(1) that respects the GW2 writers/IP owner(s) need to have balance among the playable races of Tyria.
Yours and similar in these forums have mostly been about spreading chaos and misinformation among the forum community with the message that only IP owner(s) approved texts are valid.
It was the Humans who as per my post that gain the Dwarven technology not the Charr.
That says it all, really.
You obviously did not read my post.
I’ll be honest with you, based on the “according to me” premise you’re pitching (in addition to poor formatting + wall of text)… no.
Not as thoroughly as I might have otherwise. Don’t get me wrong… I read enough to get what you’re on about, but that’s the sum of it.
Nicholas, there’s nothing to debate or discuss here if you’re throwing the lore out the window and substituting your own.
So why would the Human Kingdoms of Tyria want any tech or engineering from the Charr?
Heh. That’s what I said about the separatist engineer. Violating his own hatred. A hypocrite. Them dirty charrs gotta die!
… Thanks for inventing guns and bombs to kill you with though.
But, hatred is rarely logical and often blind. Those that hate don’t think very deeply, so it’s entirely possible for the loons to be hypocritical charr tech using fellows, who hate charr.
You see that kind of thing in real life all the time.
Its clear that you were doing your best to selective read my most current posts scanning for key words and phrases and taking no account of context or have any understanding of key concepts and idea both in terms of the construction and their validity.
The fact that you refer to my post as a “wall of text” is indicative of the fact that you indeed have NOT read my posts in any substantial way.
This is to ensure that you can discredit me easily and freely.
Its obvious that you completely disregard all who forum contributors oppose the published official GW2 lore as writers of “fan fiction” at best and essentially consider this group to be a group of “loons”.
Its clear that your position is that what is written on behalf of the IP owner is the only truth. Being of this position proves that you are completely incapable of independent thought in regards to GW2/GW lore.
It was the Humans who as per my post that gain the Dwarven technology not the Charr. The Charr were not interested in it. They had their own house to clear up that’s to Pyre. You obviously did not read my post.
The humans gaining the Dwarven technology was not dependant on their alliance with any race. It was gain by the Ebon Vanguard on the recommendation of Ogden and Vekk.
The Charr had no access the Dwarven tech as the humans gathered. The truth is most of it was collected by the Ascalonian humans by the time the Charr had finished with their civil war.
The Arenanet writers of course did not acknowledge this in their rush to write lore in favour of the Charr in time for the release of the current game.
And so all the Tech you see the Charr with should have been with the Human Kingdoms of Human Ascalon (Ascalon south of the ruins of the Great Northern Wall) and Kryta. It is the humans that have Airships, the Helicopters, Armoured vechiles, the Artillery pieces, small arms (rifles/pistols and associated munitions) all thanks to the reverse-engineering of Dwarven Technology and human inventiveness and adaptablility.
The Charr at best got scraps of Dwarven Tech at most with most already picked off clean by the humans of both Ascalon and Kryta. The Charr remain a tribal warrior based society with no deities thanks to Pyre. A society that only values war with outsiders and in particular the Humans.
Since on what basis would they gain access or even knowledge of how to take advantage of the technology? Pyre was very much an outsider in the group of heros and heroines that the player-character was a member of. Mostly keeping to himself. The Ebon Vanguard lead by Langmar, Kieran and Gwen would have guarded the captured Deldrimor Dwarfs Legacy and transferred it to the Mages and Engineers of Ascalon City since the other centers of human learning at that time were now in ruins as a direct result of the Searing.
And as for the Stone Summit Dwarves? Both human nations knew from our hero group that they kill the Crown Prince of Ascalon Rurik destined to marry Crown Princess Salma of Kryta. So they would have been hunted down and slaughtered by the Ebon Vanguard, The Lionguard and the Shining Blade. With intelligence from the Order of Whispers.
The Deldrimor Dwarfs were now stone and effectively an undead race, with no individuality – they are now all “The Great Dwarf”. And as such no longer had use of their former worldly possessions. Ogden knew this and with Vekk’s super genius mind and their friendship with Gwen and Kieran ensured that only humans and the other allied races gain the benefit of this Legacy. The Asura had their own tech, and the Norn not interested with the bulk of it, left the humans to use it all as they will. Leaving the Charr with scraps that they know not of or value.
So why would the Human Kingdoms of Tyria want any tech or engineering from the Charr?
Lets make this even clearer. The revolution was already well on its way towards spreading across the whole of the Charr people during the events of “GW:Eye of the North”. This disruption would I imagine be significant enough to halt the Charr warmachine sufficiently to give the humans of Ascalon, Kryta and Orr time to re-group. Beyond that who could say on what might have been but will never be.
In the real world countries with a real and strong cultural/racial link with Europe (and along the way the rest of the world as well) like America were able to benefit since immigrants bring this fire with them to their new homeland. It was the promise of the ’American Dream" that inspired so many to make the crossing. To start a new life in what many saw America as: “The Promise Land”.
The mix of the drive and different but complimentary ideas but with a shared sense of the “American Dream” is what forged modern America. And has done so since the beginning.
The has been almost countless examples of this shared experience.
In the case of the Charr there is to my knowledge no example of this transformation spark and drive to change their nation to the way they are now in the current game.
There are potentials:
- Pyre’s revolution. The focus moving away from following the shaman caste at that time and instead dropping the idea of “gods” being the way to power for the charr. I would present the opinion that trusting in their own strength rather than needing gods to define the strength of the charr was a step forward to organizing in a different manner.
- Recovery of Black Powder. Dwarven black powder, gunpowder, more than likely changed everything when it was looked at closer. We know there were demolition charges back in the time of the Great Destroyer, but it’s implied the dwarves no longer had a monopoly on it after turning to stone. Hence, this is where the firearms came from.
- The Sacking of Ascalon City. Say what you will, the charr were going to win an invasion when it was focused solely on the one target and not fragmented. If the path of the Searing stopped in Ascalon and didn’t just keep rolling it wouldn’t have been so easy to resist the charr occupation. Even saying that, it wasn’t easy at all and there was a very near loss which barely pulled through. Twice.
But the ending of their enemy nation to where it couldn’t actually become stronger anymore, and being able to hold that territory in the face of the Foefire effects? I’d call that a spark which tells the charr they most certainly are in the right path and it should be developed. Hence the unification and organization we see today.Of course, this isn’t without problems. The charr system doesn’t really work unless they’re at war with someone, since they glorify battle and warriors so much and look down on others. If they were given a period of actual peace I think the current state of charr culture would collapse and need to become something . . . else.
The revolution that Pyre led would but have led to any significant change in the Charr mind-set towards science and engineering. At best it allowed a better distribution of resources among the re-formed Legions.
The Legacy of the Dwarves would have been claim by the Ebon Vanguard of the Eye of the North as spoils of victory. Our player character would have helped as a human – Gwen and Kieran Thackeray recover such a prize as Dwarven gun-powder/technology obviously was. Vekk would certainly have made that obvious to his friends at least.
At the time Pyre would have had no interest in it since his focus was his people. He’s a warrior(yes, specifically he’s a Ranger) of this people and no bookworm of any sort. His reaction and professional relationship with to Gwen is proof of that. The Dwarves were allied to the Ebon Vanguard of Ascalon, the Norn of the Shiverpeaks and the Asurans and had no agreement with the Charr(to my knowledge).
So it would have been the Ascalonian Humans using the remains of their society and war machine that would have reversed-engineered dwarven know-how with the able assistance of Ogden and Vekk among many others. This has not been stated by the GW2 writers since the obviously did not want this to happen. not because its the most logical lore progression but because they want to make the Charr too powerful for the Humans to challenge.
The fact is logically the Ascalonian Humans would have been the ones to make use of Dwarven technology. Since the Charr at the very least was in the process of a civilisation-wide civil war and through Pyre would at the time see either seen no value and or no priority for such things. And as mention the Ebon Vanguard would have promptly claimed it all with Ogden and Vekk’s assistance.
This technology would have enhanced dramatically the fighting spirit and fire of the Defenders of Human Ascalon.
And so one can reasonable ask: how could the events that led to the Foefire ever have occurred when the Charr armies would NOT have been able to even get near Ascalon City.
(edited by Nicholas S Lin.6187)
In the real world countries with a real and strong cultural/racial link with Europe (and along the way the rest of the world as well) like America were able to benefit since immigrants bring this fire with them to their new homeland. It was the promise of the ’American Dream" that inspired so many to make the crossing. To start a new life in what many saw America as: “The Promise Land”.
The mix of the drive and different but complimentary ideas but with a shared sense of the “American Dream” is what forged modern America. And has done so since the beginning.
The has been almost countless examples of this shared experience.
In the case of the Charr there is to my knowledge no example of this transformation spark and drive to change their nation to the way they are now in the current game.
To get back on track again. My central line of inquiry I’m leading up to is this: On what basis can Arenanet possiblely give to change the Charr from from a Tribal/Warrior culture to an Advance urban-industrial culture that values in their turn: War prowse, Science, Technology, Engineering, Mass social intergration and the way of the Warrior.
With a starting point of a culture that lacks even the most basic understanding of the value of research and development of non-Tribal concepts and socialisation? These values would need to be willing adopted and enforced within Charr society with the blessing and full authority of the Charr leadership – The High Legions.
There is no evidence that this transformational change could likely and actually occur during the events of GW(1) event including the events of “Eye of the North”.
In the Ascalon region only the Human race show real and actual evidence of this. Only the Humans had large scale social integration the large urban centers like Ascalon City and the other cities/large towns like Rin, Drascir and Surmia. With major towns like Ashford, Fort Ranik, Nolani, Piken and Serenity.
There is no evidence that the Charr had any urban center that survives to GW2 that was devoted to anything other than tribal rituals and worship like Doomlore (CoF). Even Doomlore no longer exist in GW2 with only CoF all that remains of it.
So where is evidence of this transformational spark that changed a tribal/semi-nomadic/warrior culture to an advance highly urbanised/ industrial/ militaristic culture? How was the change even possible over the course of the 250 years leading to the present day?
(edited by Nicholas S Lin.6187)
A fort at best can only be classed as a small village – at most. Not a city. Which begs the quest would smelted steel/iron for the Charr since its obvious they did not. A nomadic people is not capable of mining and certainly not smelting.
A fort is not a major urban area even though it would have the population of a village. The Charr can be considered NOT evil at all. They were all a proud people doing what’s best for their Warband(s).
The Humans were no less resolute. And did have the ability to manufacture the machinery for both civilian and war uses. And yes Humans did have several cities and major towns in Ascalon. Yet all that was apparently mostly gone in a single bombardment. Ascalon City was most certainly reduced to rubble. Genocide on a massive scale. The Charr must have known to a significant degree the likely damage the Searing would do to the Humans and the farmlands.
Yet they used it anyway. So if they considered Ascalon a ‘Homeland’ why poison the land and the rivers, the lakes for generations?
The Charr were still a relatively primitive race during the events of Guild Wars and were given the Searing Cauldron magic by the agents of Abbadon to cause chaos for the chosen race of his siblings the other 5 gods of Tyria, as a form of petty vengeance.
They had no means to develop the means to research or develop advance science and engineering know-how since they had no fix place of settlement and were a warlike society of wonder war-bands. They as a result were a very tribal people.
Even if we grant that they were not “evil” as a whole just that one faction that’s purely psychotic and unbalanced in the extreme. It has not been explain how the whole Charr race was transformed from a tribal/nomadiac culture to one that is now very much urbanised, and capable of pursuing and developing advance science and engineering.
How is this possible in 250 years? How was this social transformation achieved? What caused this profound change in a very warlike tribal society where ones worth is determined by conquest?
Obsidian, Lostwingman and myself have never been against post GW(1) writers at a personal level. What we are against is what they are paid to write. And that is Lore that white-wash GW(1) as it pertains to human strength especially Ascalon and to a much lesser degree the rest of Tyria and beyond.
We don’t hate anyone and least of all any writer of substance and skill.
We are not against “retcons” as long as its fair and balanced against all races. Its clear that humanity has suffered the most as a result of the numerous retcons done against them in comparison to their prime enemies, the Charr.
The Charr more than any other playable race has gain the most against humanity. It’s clear to all that most of that advantage is at the expense of Ascalonian humanity. Humanity has not gain any significant advantage in the 250 years since the events of the first game. Apart from Divinity’s Reach. This is of course not an actual advantage since all the other four playable races were also given this advantage.
And so I ask this. Are you Tobias and your peer group so blind to the truth that you are clearly anti-human in at least the world of Guild War (GW & GW2)? Its plainly obvious that you try to come across as fair and reasonable yet the truth remains.
You support the Lore as its written in GW2 pure because its what’s published despite the truth of what I and many others like Obsidian stated that its a white-wash of GW(1) and very unbalanced against humans in our opinion.
Somehow I think that nomadiac hunter/gathering use of the land does not constitute actual ownership. Since as far as I can tell that is about the extent of Charr use of the land prior to Human conquest.
They did not see the land as a country. they saw the land that humans would later call Ascalon as a rich reliable source of food for their warbands.
The question had always been based on recent history(the last 1250 years) who had better claim to Ascalon before the Lore was re-imagined to suit the introduction of GW2.
The novels that were written to describe the events between GW and GW2 where written with a GW2 bias and does not acknowledge the events as they were at the end of the first game.
Put simply at the end of GW the humans in Ascalon were holding the line and were in no way retreating. Claim on ownership is what it is. Who had the ability to hold ownership of the land by force of arms.
At the end of GW(1) the humans proved they had it.
I have made my case very carefully and always backed by the contextual lore – lore of its specific time period in Tyrian history. If read in full a reader would immediately understand that my entries have always been my interpretation of lore and what I believe should have happen based on the Lore.
At no time would a read be in any way confused or lost as to what the lore is as it has been written. Only those casually scan over my text would miss major sections of context. This is not news.
What many seem to forget is the most obvious fact. Humanity had rough 1000 years hold on the land they named Ascalon. This fact itself would suggest that they the army and the technology and organisational stability to hold the land to such an extent that not all of Ascalon was a war zone.
Magic and Science were able to be developed and progressively utilised by the war effort. It would also assume massive amounts of logistical and organisational synergy in the distribution of food and resources to keep the populace reasonably well fed and stable as well has feeding the army.
This societal stability would allow the observation and research of any evidence of ruins of structures that pre-date human settlement. The sum total of this research over time would have been collected in the national library and form part of the education of the ruling dynasty and that of the nobility of the day.
If the Charr had built structures where are the records that prove their existence?
A log cabin is made from organic material thus not permanent. Wood is not similar to stone. Structures or its ruin can last for several centuries if left relatively undisturbed if climatic and environment conditions are favourable.
Thus I believe there is little supporting evidence to substantiate Charr claims of ownership to the land that became known as Ascalon. The most that they can claim is that their ancestors “may” have used the land as part of their hunting grounds.
(PS: Please read the texts of my last two entries carefully, Dustfinger).
Permanent structures are those that use of stone or similar.
Materials such as wood, leather and all organic materials are classed as temporary. So nothing fanfic about my referencing. Fyi nothing I’ve written is fanfic sourced or related. And I have not changed or modified my position on anything I’ve written. They are all part of a unified whole.
I have in the past suggested variations and alternatives. But what I prefer is sound(in my opinion) and based on actual lore of GW(1) as I have experienced it and understanding of what would happen after the events of that game.
The books/novels that describe events in between were written based on the white-wash of GW(1) Lore to allow for the Lore of GW2 to occur as it now has. And just as a btw where are the Watchknights v.2? If Scarlet was able to develop and build new armies of weapon systems why can’t Queen Jennah’s Kryta do the same?
Then GW2 lore is null and void. Since using the land that was named Ascalon by humans as merely part of their hunting grounds with only temporary structures and no concept of nationhood is not a valid claim to being a country – a civilised society. Thus the claim that the land that became known as Ascalon was always humanity land by right of actually establishing permanent settlements and use of the land for farming and the grazing of cattle for the organised and permanent production of food and resources required for nation building.
Humanity were thus the first to established a permanent civilised society within the land that they themselves have named and held as their own.
And they were able to do so for roughly 1000 years up to the events of GW(1). Thus the lore should have continued that the Ascalonian humans were able to permanently repel the Charr advance and hold the land south of the Great Northern Wall and cure the land of the Searing in the past 250 years (btw: no Foefire too). Since humanity in Ascalon had still had the advantage of an organised civil society ruled under a unified crown.
The Charr had no such unity during the events of GW(1) with rebellion in the ranks and the Legions non-existent in a real sense due to the domination of the Shaman caste and the Flame Legion. The Ascalon landscape at the end of the events of GW(1) would have been the two side rebuilding their civilisations in Ascalon during the past 250 years.
In the present day Ascalon is scarred with the ruined remains of past human settlement as well as that of the Searing and the Dragonbrand. They are lasting testament of sustained long lasting human settlement of the land.
In my three years of playing Guild Wars(1) I did not once see any evidence of past Charr civilisation anywhere in the map of Ascalon available to us. No evidence of past settlement by the Charr. Since the Charr is an advanced and organised race today one would assume that they would have used the same construction materials as the humans did and we would have seen major buildings and structures left behind.
Its been said by many contributors that the Charr have a much longer heritage in Ascalon before the human occupation. Where’s the archaeological proof of this?Has anyone seem any evidence of past Charr occuptation pre-dateing human settlement anywhere during their play through of Guild Wars(1)?
In my time there I saw none that I recall.
I mostly agree. However…..
The Pact one would think would have seen and be informed via the Order of Whispers along with our favourite npcs: Evon Gnashblade and Captain Ellen Kiel of their in-ability to convince the Captain’s Council to commit the Lionguard to a course of action.
Scarlet must be using Sith magic on the simple-mined members of the Council. As for the Pact holding due to them not overstepping their authority – that is very likely the reasoning the anet writers used to justify the turn of events.
But in reality in-action on the part of the Council would actually allow the Pact to act since that would be in the best interest of Tyria!
The Krytan economy has already suffered the shock and damage to trade and morale as a result of the result of the damage caused to Divinity’s Reach as a result of the Queen’s Jubilee attack by Scarlet. That event would have already sent shockwaves across the the length and berth of Kryta and Ebonhawke. Since Divinity’s Reach is the center of the entire human civilisation in all of Tyria.
And so any real or potential threat – especially from Scarlet and her rogue alliances would be seen by the member Pact Orders as a “Clear and Present Danger” and thus automatically authorising them to commit to any and all course of action to extinguish said threat.
The Pact has airships of its own. Upgrading them with Watchknight technology will enhance their performance, if anything. Its rather curious that pirates would have access to such advance cutting edge technology without a truly wealthy patron while the Pact who has the patronage of all five major races of Tyria struggles to field at least as many.
It is to me shocking that the Order of Whispers could not have for-warned their Pact allies of an impending assault of such a important and strategic asset such as Lion’s Arch.
And for the Pact to not react in kind with fire of their in the form of their own airships and anti-aircraft artillery – enhanced with Watchknight technology. Why is it that the Pact seems so ineffective that it cannot sufficient defend against any and all major attacks? Especially major cites like Lion’s Arch in the current instance.
With Pact assistance and more rigorous testing and trials I think any concerns can be resolved and eliminated. Ensuring that the Watchknights V.2 and the application of this technology in other military weapons like say a mobile artillery( an advancement of the humble cannon) implacement would be a success. There also also obvious commercial and industrial applications to watchknight technology.
Its all in the R&D and the testing/trials that follows that will ultimately decide success or failure – barring human/charr/asuran/sylvari/norn (and can i say quaggan… foo) error…..
Then I guess we’ll have to see what Queen Jennah does with the Watchknight technology. That tech and its likely applications of that technology in both commercial and military products and processes could prove to be a major breakthrough in human industrialisation leading to expansion in both Kryta(against rogues and centaurs) and the Ebonhawke territory (ie controlling the Dragonbrand beasts).
I think there are a lot of variables here. The Ascalonians settlers would not all have chosen to re-settle in the Ascalon Settlement. I would say theres a strong chance they spread between Divinity’s Reach and all over Kryta as well, with some even going back to Ascalon to re-settle again in Ebonhawke once the Asura gate was built between the two cities.
So the numbers of Ascalonians that boost the Krytan population is unverifiable as well. Then there is that fact that humans in both Kingdoms have been breed to be part of their respective war machines. They have lived through the Guild Wars for generations and then both had to deal with the Charr invasions.
And as a result of the events of GW:EotN they have had “some” contact with the Asura and the Norn. How much this means is of course uncertain. All of which suggests to me that humanity should still very much have the advantage over their four-legged rivals.
Why? That should be obvious.
The humans have a much larger population base and much better technology and magic prowess. The Krytans thanks to Rurik now have all the knowledge and know-how from Ascalon through the settlers who have added their numbers to Kryta.
The number of Ascalonians would have increased steadily since as their homeland kept falling away from their grasp more would have fled and fled they did. As most know this weaken the defences of Ascalon City allowing the Charr to move in and ultimately the Foefire happened.
Leaving those cut-off to form the settlement/fort that would become the Stronghold of Ebonhawke. This brings me to my second point. Many of the Ascalonian settlers would have served in the Ascalonian Army or maybe even in the Ebon Vanguard.
What this means is that the humans of Kryta in my estimation should have on their side all the advantages in the battlefield against the Centaurs that matter. Men and Women that have known hardship and endurance in the trenches ofa seemingly un-ending war. They had faced the Charr Legions for generations – they know warfare better than any centaur war party.
The Centaurs do not have the advantages of numbers or technology to my knowledge. Thus they should have been exterminated, for reasons as stated.
I feel this thread is going nowhere. So I will ask: why must there be a centaur presence in Kryta?
Why are they still a major fact of life in the life of Krytan humanity?
Shouldn’t it be the case that in the past 250 years the humans through numbers and advances in technology have been able to push the centaurs to near extinction in Kryta?
PS: I’m setting aside the Divinity’s Reach/Lion’s Arch discourse as there can be no satisfactory conclusion reached, in my opinion. And I will most certain not respond further to the current line of discussion.
The Lore has been to do whatever is necessary to weaken the humanity in Tyria where-ever and whenever a plot line could be created to take all of its main/or long held assets starting with the Ascalonian white-wash and continuing with taking Kryta’s main city and center of economic activity from yet another human Kingdom all in the name of balance. Note Divinty’s Reach to me makes no sense. Since it is a land-locked urban area – totally economically dependant on a seaport that is operating independent of it as per current continuity. This would lead in my mind to a massive population leakage to Lion’s Arch.
So you acknowledge that my opinion of what should have happen in both Ascalon and Kryta are essentially correct but is almost completely different from the current Lore post the events of GW(1).
The whole point of these forums is to discuss our points of view on all interesting points of Lore as it pertains to the GW/GW2 world. I don’t see your point or any point of yours in fact since you merely want to re-state and enforce the Lore as and when it is written by Arenanet.
The scenario as described by that attachment and its source material cannot have happened since under what I have put forward the re-established Lion’s Arch would have already been under full Krytan control with a full Lionguard garrison in operation and with the Krytan Navy using its seaport as a major base of operations and re-supply.
The crown would have immediately sent the Lionguard to secured the ruins of Lion’s Arch and instruct them to establish a garrison on the site of the ruins, after the events of the Orrian Cataclysm. This to ensure the law of the land is upheld and secure a safe and operational seaport to re-build the nation. This would seem I think to have been the logical turn of events. Since the main seaport of the nation would have been seem as a key strategic national asset, that cannot be allowed to be lost at any cost, thus would have been secured before any other major national project started. It would have been top priority.
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Not at all. I’m not saying that the Lionguard and the Seraph should merge in the present. No.
I’m saying that the Seraph should never have been established in the 1st place.
The Lionguard should have been the military instrument that Salma used to re-unite Kryta and keeping the peace. With the Shining Blade involving as it has to its current charter – as the as the royal security guards and involving covert operations to protect the interest of the crown and the acquisition of sensitive information that is of interest to the state (http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shining_Blade).
The elephant in the middle of the room is the question that I’ll like answered. If Kryta had the resources to establish, build a grand metropolis that became Divinity’s Reach it would have need a massive vertically intergrated supply chain that would stretch to all corners of Kryta and many points beyond. This would require the facilities of a major seaport. In this case in Kryta that would logically have meant the replacement/rebuilding of a new Lion’s Arch for this titanic endeavour. Seeing as the crown would have needed a full service logistics and supply operations base to collect warehouse and the transfer of massive amounts of raw material and building supplies purchased from all over Kryta and the rest of Tyria .
This being the case, the crown would have need a garrison to ensure security of this operations base/seaport that would grow to become a new Lion’s Arch.
Divinity’s Reach in GW(1) was only a small town at best back then(http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Divinity_Coast_.
For it to become what it is now would require as I have stated, Lion’s Arch would have had to have been re-established initially to build the new capital. Thus any pirate fleet that had attempted to dock or approach Lion’s Arch seaport (guarded by the Lionguard) would have been given the choice of serving the crown or be destroyed/terminated with their ships and assets seized.
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If Divinity’s Reach and Lion’s Arch were both governed on behalf of the crown of Kryta officially as well as in practice I believe that more resources can be directed to exterminating the Centaurs as a regional economic problem. No traders/farmers/citizens want those pests(Centaurs) endangering their property nor their business activities in Kryta.
And lets be clear I do believe that the Seraph and the Lionguard are duplicate military organisations of Kryta. They should be merged into one organisation – since in both their charters they are meant to serve the interests of the governing dynasty of Kryta.
You again show that you have ignored the evidence clearly present. As you should know and novel published under license is NOT cannon. Only the games and material directly published by NC Soft is. I’m sure they have complete editorial liberty to alter/modify and otherwise change the Lore of Tyria for any reason that they so wish.
The Shining Blade never served the function of the Lionguard. They do not have the resources nor the numbers to do so. Further more it is not it their charter to do so. They are a security force, chartered with the protection of the governing dynasty of Kryta. It was the Lionguard that was charged with the protection of Kryta starting from Lion’s Arch as their headquarters.
The White Mantle were mere opportunist that took advantage of an unstable situation within Kryta as many know due to the threat of the advancing Charr army.
The extent of the sphere of influence and control may or may not have is at the mercy not of Lore but of the “pen” of Arenanet. It is humanity that hold Kryta not any other race. It is the fact that the main reason for the ongoing Centaur raids and threat and rogue bands that attack travelling traders is a direct result of the writers making Lion’s Arch an independent city.
If Lion’s Arch was fully under crown control the centaur threat would be extinguished within a few months with mop-up operations dragging the process to 18 months and beyond. After which, attacks on travellers would be drastically reduce since these bands now have few patron(s) sponsoring their raids from Lion’s Arch as they obviously are happening now, with virtually complete freedom of movement. Having Lion"s Arch under the control of the crown of Kryta does not preclude or hinder racial equality and balance within Tyria.
I have a human bias? Show proof that I have ever suggested that humanity gain land or advantage that was not rightfully theirs before Lore being implemented due to the direction Arenanet requires, at any given time.
And there in lie humanity’s problem even in Kryta where it has the strongest and only significant hold on Tyria the forces of Order and Stability cannot prevail in all the land. The center of trade is held by a massive forces of a pirate council.
What more can be said about Anet’s bias against humanity? I mean really. Just as a Matter of interest. The Lionguard were the military arm of the Krytan crown – they had the same role as the Seraphs in GW (1) so……
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The Pact is also the ultimate expression of order and stability in all of Tyria. The Captain’s Council and its activities will be seen as illegal and an unstable element within the Krytan region. The financial power it had will mostly vanish into nothing since all its assets will be seen as ‘spoils of crime’ and thus be distributed in equal parts to all the five major races.
All that will remain of its financial power will be from its function as the main port of both Kryta and Tyria as a whole. The authority of the Krytan crown legally expends to include Lion’s Arch. The occupation of Lion’s Arch by the Captain’s Council actual has no basis in Law. Who gave the Council its authority? It took it.
It took it because at that time Kryta and its economy was destroyed by the Cataclysm that took Orr. A disaster is not a legal basis for taking ownership of crown land.
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Lion’s Arch since its re-establishment has always valued its independence. With the Captain’s Council as it’s current governing body all have been stable. This independence is an illusion in all ways that matters and at best temporary – especially since its also a major Tyrian city.
As Tyria main seaport it is also an obvious prime naval military target. The Pact Treaty will only recognise the official governing body in each territory. In Kryta that authority rest with the Crown. That crown is currently worn by Queen Jennah the human patron of the Pact.
All five major races would in equal share be the patrons of the Pact. The Pact was formed to face threats to Tyria that no single race or Order can face on its own. Thus ultimately the Pact would not recognise the authority of the Captain’s Council over Lions’ Arch as a permanent governing body.
And to relate this to the main topic: Krytan with a stable and unified economy would give humanity through Queen Jennah the ability to transfer more resources to stablise the Ebonhawke region of Ascalon.
(edited by Nicholas S Lin.6187)
I would like to see updated Watchknights being re-introduced into GW2 serving as the new armoured division(s) of the human military as the most visual expression of Queen Jennah’s authority over all of Kryta.
I would like to see Watchknights guarding the gates of Divinity’s Reach, Lion’s Arch and Ebonhawke alongside Seraph/Ebon Vanguard(Ebonhawke) troops.
I would also like to see some Seraphs patrols in Lion’s Arch and in fact I want to see the Lionguard replaced outside of Lion’s Arch with Seraph units in Kryta and the Shiverpeaks.
In Ascalon no change is required since human army units are already Ebon Vanguard – human Ascalon’s equivalent to the Seraphs/Lionguard. May I also suggest that they are refered to differently depending on which army they serve.
In Ascalon they be called: Ebon Watchguards the armoured division of the Ebonhawke – military. And in Kryta: Seraph Watchknights. All versions of the Watchknights are to be manufactured in Divinity’s Reach. With magically shielded and heavily patrolled (Seraph and Shining Blade) and guarded(Shining Blade) R&D Labs also exclusively in that city as well.
These armoured units will ensure that humanity as a whole finally commands real and actual respect – as a major military power.
PvE Town Additions
I would like each crafting profession of have its own uniform and for there to be a crafting festival at Easter and the Halloween Event to include crafting festival activities.
Home Instance customisation options – ie. Seasonal themes – seasonally available, Enhanced cultural themes – permanent gem shop item. All home instance theme item will add player home as distinct building within the instance – exclusive feature of these packages.
Character spouse option added as new home instance option – unlocked as part of Personal Story progression – the NPC becomes character spouse. Once unlocked may buy gem shop substitute(permanently replaces the one gained from Personal Story) .
NPC spouse may be same gender as character – based on Personal Story completion choice. NPC can be customised the same way as PC.
PvE Out-of-Town Additons
Kodan as new playable race.
Jormag as next Elder Dragon to become a threat.
Personal Story to be expanded to show the player working more closely with Destiny’s Edge with the journey ending with the Jormag final battle.
I this most are lost as to the real purpose of this ill-fashioned question. The question that we all would like answered is not how we want the way forward, but how Anet would write the way forward for humanity in Tyria.
Its clear that Ascalon will remain Charr land outside of the lands surrounding the Stronghold of Ebonhawke. Its clear that humans are not allowed by the writers to have a major industrial base in Kryta – as this would threaten Anet’s beloved Charr.
Its clear that Anet wants us to accept that the human condition will remain essentially unchanged and that human relevance lies elsewhere such as the lands to its south – Cantha maybe and Elona.
But in Tyria no change. Tyrian humanity is doomed to unachieved doomed to Anets requirement of “balance” among the races. This is against the most basic law of nature itself.
The only constant in Nature is change. Change is inevitable, it is unstoppable, it cannot be slowed – like time itself, since time is a facet of nature. But of course that is not allowed in humanity’s future in Tyria.
FlamingFoxx with this piece you show yourself as utterly confused and obviously unaware that you have actually accepted my assessment of you. You liked seeing the Humans of Ascalon were doomed in GW-Prophecies and that this apparent theme was carried into GW2. Your complete this by saying you are against any significant change in Lore. I now have solid proof that you are – anti-human and pro-charr. Since GW2 is pro-charr when it comes to humans vs charr. This fact is obvious to all.
I’m not pro-Charr or anti-human… I really like all of the races equally and I can understand why Arenanet wrote their stories the way they did and I can see that they make logical sense….
I LOVE humans in gW. I love their lore because it is rich and beautiful and realistic – that means that when things go bad they go bad. If everything was always positive then it wouldn’t be very realistic at all, real life is not like that. There are constantly wars going on in the real world, constant loss, constant triumph. I loved Ascalon in prophecies because you could tell it was doomed after the searing. There was something really poignant about watching the last bastion of the kingdom of Ascalon, but I understood what you dont seem to understand – it was exactly that, the LAST bastion of a once powerful kingdom. They were beaten down and battered from the Searing, all of their cities had been destroyed, their capital city had been destroyed, the wall had been breached – there was no way for Ascalon to come back from that. It just doesn’t happen, they didn’t have the military power and they weren’t willing to get aid from Kryta. Also considering the Krytan civil war happened it’s unlikely Kryta would have been in a position to give them aid.
You seem not to notice that almost everything I say is looking at lore that is right in front of us during Guild Wars 1. We know what the situation was in Ascalon, we know what the situation was in Kryta…
You show the problem right there in your latest comment “any change in lore”, THAT is what I am arguing against – a change in lore. What you have been consistently arguing FOR is for the lore to be changed. But do you have any idea how ridiculous it would be to just go back and change the games lore? That would completely necessitate changing everything about GW2, and it wouldn’t make any sense.
The way things are were set up by Arenanet starting with prophecies, all of the lore you see in game is the result of careful planning that goes back quite a long time in history. Stop asking for changes that would literally break the game.
The question now is how do the humans progress and survive beyond the events of GW2 as in now stands? I don’t see any positives – the Watch Knight momentarily seem promising and were swiftly taken away – as per the events of the Queen’s Jubilee incident.
Since most support without question the negative moves against humanity in both Ascalon and Kryta – without question. As it stands Humanity face certain extinction in Tyria, they cannot defend themselves against any threat – complete at the mercy of what the writers have in store for them – all negative, all full of doom – with no hope of redemption without non-human intervention.
FlamingFoxx its clear that you just skim through my post. And have missed many points that I have made. As to who would pass on these stories of Devona all the henchmen and women that have when to quest with the PC in all the campaigns.
Also if you actually have read my previous post most times I would have referred to her inner circle at least once and usually more. When I say her friends and allies they are not limited to Mhenlo, Cynn, Eve and Aidan, I’m also including Livia and the others including but not exclusively: Stefan, Alesia, Orion, Little Tom, Claude, Reyna and Dunham – I have also made this clear – by say all her friends and allies – these I mention here are included as the allies of the PC and/or Devona. And their inclusion would have been obvious if you did more than skim my posts. They were not designed to be skimmed. Its clear you cannot allow yourself to agree with me on major points of difference with your opinion and view point which is clearly pro- Charr and anti-Human.
This is clear to me but you have hidden this from most others but not from me. As I do read you post word for word, including your clear Charr bias. This is seen by your obviously opposition against for example any change in Lore that would in combination with other movements of history in Kryta and Ascalon promote and or strengthen humanity as a whole.
The humans of Ascalon who settled in Ebonhawke would have carried in their hearts all who have made a noteable mark in the in the war against the Charr in Ascalon. The whole war – not just those that contributed to the move and establishment of their new home.
The PC and all the npc henchmen and women had shared many a campfire together and shared their stories, their hopes, their dreams, the failings and stories of those that had past on. Many of these people would have passed these campfire stories to others they come to meet and of course to their children for those fortunate enough.
In this way the children of Ascalon and Kryta learn of the heros and heroines of the past. many of the lesser henchs would have been recognised as local heros/heroines themselves. Note that the Norn built many a statue for Jora in Hoelbrak and in Wayfarer’s Foothills and the Charr remember Pyre Fierceshot in a statue in the Plains of Ashford. Yet…..
There is not a single marker at all for Devona anywhere in Tyria. She was a daughter and soldier of Rin born into a warrior’s family who’s father was a member of Ascalon’s Chosen – Adelbern’s guild. She would never end her days anywhere but in Ascalon. It is there that she would have instructed her friends to bury her or to spread her ashes in the ruins of Rin or in the foothills nearest it.
Her friends would pass the story of her service to Tyria, to Ascalon to all whenever they share a gathering of celebration or rememberance. This would be the way that the people of Ebonhawke would come to know and remember her heroism. Thus her fame would last as long as there are humans in Ascalon.
The full measure of her fame would depend on which version of Lore you accept. The current or the version I’ve suggested. At the very least she would have been famous in Ebonhawke, since those that know the stories of Gwen and Keiran Thackeray also know those of Devona.
So why no marker for Devona?
Devona is not merely a “personality”, certaining not by the end of the GW(1) campaigns. She, Komir of the humans, along with the PC and some others were among the most famous figures of their age. Devona was the most famous after Adelbern, and ahead of Gwen, Langmar and Keiran.
She was not mere pushed aside for the purpose of writing a new narrative, she was wiped from all of human history in Tyria in GW2.
Obisdian in my understand of current Lore, many of the heros and heroines of Ascalon – including Devona were not in Ascalon, took no part in the final siege of Ascalon City, and did not die in Ascalon.
In fact they never existed. They were a work of human fiction to sell works of fiction to the nobility as entertainment. That I believe is what Anet has done to Devona and crew and is why we only have armour/gear with their name-sake.
Ascalon City, the last bastion of humanity should never die due the desperate action of any single person. FlamingFoxx I’m sure its apparent that you and I will never find agreement on this point. The Ascalonian Army defending Ascalon City did not have many of the heros and heroines of the campaigns of GW(1) since most have been removed from Tyrian Lore in the present day. Of the significant ones only Gwen, Keiran and Langmar kept their place in history.
Therefore to me it is reasonable to assume that Devona and her closest allies and friends did not see action in the final push of the Charr Legions on Ascalon City.
This is a key Lore point. The most important human Ascalon story point.
I believe that had what I stated come to pass: Adelbern killed in action – and leaving a power vaccum that needed to be fill by a warrior leader that had the unquestioned respect of all – Devona. She would then bring on board as many of the heros and heroines of Ascalon from all points of Tyria and beyond if needed in the case of Mhenlo and Cynn (Cantha). Thus preventing the Foefire. So CETheLucid no genocide as a direct result of a single human’s action – at that point in history.
The armies of Ascalon as described in my previous posts will be better trained and equipped and offer far more of a challenge than the one that did face the Charr as per the current historical Lore.
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Take back Ascalon???? If the events in Human Ascalon occurred the way it should have – as per my previous posts, Devona would be Queen well before the time that the final siege of Ascalon would otherwise have occurred but instead did not. This no Foefire event.
As in the humans were able to hold onto Ascalon City, Fort Ranik, and Ebonhawke (with the original Serenity Temple destroyed by first the Searing, then at a later point as a result of the Dragonbrand).
With Ascalon City being held by Queen Devona the Black Citadel could not have been built on the site of the ruin human capital of Rin/Nolani Academy with its mass of dead bodies that remained where they fell due to Charr genocide and Ascalon being a unwavering and unrelenting war zone.
I don’t see a funny scenario here, some how. But maybe that’s just me.
PS: Read some of my previous posts in forums. As I will not repeat myself more than I deem needed.
Annnnnnnnnd I have stated that I strongly disagree by publishing my reasoned points of view to the GW public, with the current Lore as it regards to humanity from straight after the wedding of Gwen and Keiran Thackeray.
More importantly the Lore since that point in my opinion has no basis in natural progression as per the events of GW(1). I have pointed out why what I’ve suggested should replace all GW2 lore in regards to humans – as well as Charr Lore as it pertains to humans.
I am well aware of the state of affairs and the basis of such in regards to present day human Ascalon and the level of technology of humanity in Tyria currently. And all of it is not good and not comparable with the Charr or the Asurans. The humans are backward in every sense that matters.
This backwardness expends to the lack of a cohesive plan for the way forward in regards to industrial and military development and organisation. It is for this reason that I believe that a major and significant change is required post haste in Human Lore both in Ascalon and Kryta. This is clearly illustrated by the fear of the Centaurs and the extent of this threat to humanity in Kryta even after 250 years.
If Kryta has truly developed as a nation as well as military power in the past 250 years, it should have exterminated the Centaurs from any region where humanity has commercial interests – including farming and grazing land.
Kryta as a nation clearly has not developed satisfactorily. To me that speaks of gross mismanagement of national resource utility and development. It can be clearly seen that Humanity has not been allowed by the Anet writers to do anything but build a new metropolis – Divinity’s Reach. There is actually powerful grounds to state that it is technologically and industrially impossible for Kryta to even develop the technology to design the Watch Knights to say nothing of marshalling the massive amounts of resources and technical expertise to build even one.
For Kryta to be capable to design and develop the means necessary the build that Watch Knights that Queen Jennah had on display at her Jubilee celebrations, she would need Kryta to have the large industrial grade smelters to produce the metals required, she would need engineers and technical staff to operate said facilities. Kryta as needs the Research and Development Labs to design the Watch Knights in the first place. Then there is the need for testing facilities to ensure that they operate within specified requirements – this would include a security suite counter-measures against potential virus or any lost of control – fail safes. If said fail-safes were implemented, where’s the evidence of it if any?
Theses are all fundamental requirements. The Watch Knights were obviously designed to be frontline weapon systems in the defense of Kryta and by extension humanity in all of Tyria. Thus all precautions and testing are needed to be carried out before they were given ready status, and before going on public display within a major civilian area such as Divinity’s Reach.
These facts are a big part of the basis of my suggested changes to GW2 Human Lore.
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My positions in regards to Lore ultimate comes from playing Guild Wars and continues with playing Guild Wars 2. I most certain will not change my point of view, ever.
I understand completely what both you and Dustfinger have stated and completely disagree on most points – particularly those that oppose mines. I have clearly shown the basis of every line and word of my point of view with references where available.
Dustfinger all your responses to my posts has been to express your complete disagreement – without exception. you even claim that I’m unrealistically bias in favour of the humans. Yet at no time did I ever slander or put down any of the other races. Yet you claim not to see any fault on your part.
FlamingFoxx it is you who lack the understanding of Lore to see that it is you that has been mislead/ill-informed. And yes I will no long respond to any of your posts published by either of you from this point on.
In regards to human forgiveness being considered, I personally do not see that as a possibility. The complete extinction of Orr and reducing human Ascalon to one corner of their original land leaving only one out three surviving on the Tyrian continent. That leaves little room for debate.
(Note that Cantha and Elona are separate continents to Tyria:
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Elona
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Cantha).
In Tyria the humans have lost roughly 50% of their Pre-Searing/Cataclysm after accounting for any survivors that have made their way to safety in either Kryta of Ebonhawke. Forgiveness would require the return of lands to human control Ascalon south of the ruins of the Great Northern Wall including the land that the Black Citadel sits on – seeing as the site of the original capital of human Ascalon – Rin and the Nolani Academy.
Rin would my the site of mass human graves comparable only to Ascalon City in scale in terms of Ascalon. And together only comparable to Orr. Both human Ascalon and Orr were major nations in the world of Guild Wars. They were not by any means pockets of civilization.
Adelbern has been cast as being insane by many at the end of his doom. But to judge him and his place in human history one needs context.
In his lifetime of service to his people he has seen his land burn in the Searing causing instant genocide of a large fraction of his kingdom’s entire population. Then in quick succession he witnessed his son Rurik leave the kingdom. And finally he saw the impending doom of Ascalon City itself. Then the last bastion of human Ascalon of any significance.
To me in this context he did the only sane thing a King of Ascalon would do.
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