Guild Wars 2

I think the Same-sex issue in Kryta and in the world of GW2 has not really been fully defined or acknowledged. I believe that if Arenanet is truly serious about being inclusive then character creation needs to include the option of choosing the gender preference of the player character – once chosen it can never be altered like it is for a character’s race, social-economic status/upbringing and Order of Tyria affiliation.

This sexual identity should then translate where appropriate in terms of character dialogue in cut-scenes and in-game npc interaction/dialogue. Characters could be further customised in terms of emote options. An expanded emote menu would have a selection of emotes only available to pc that are identified as ‘Straight’ while those pc that have been identified as ‘LGBT’ would have emotes that reflect their identity.

The emotes currently available could continue unaltered. Taken together these suggestion will measurable enhance the social aspect of GW2 game-play.

If these suggestions where to be implemented then the rating of our game may well be affect. Thus I seriously doubt any part of this post will ever be seriously considered.

I’m starting to believe that there is no real cohesive roadmap to advance the stories of our npc – co-adventurers. And that they are built only well enough to complete a single project then essentially discarded as yesterdays edition. This was the structure in the original game.

A player was expected to not overly invest oneself with any group of adventurers since the next project/quest (Prophecies/Factions/Nightfall/EotN/GW Beyond – each being separate quests) will involve a complete new set of people at its core with only guest appearances from the group you have invested a lot of time and spilt blood together.

It seems to me that at the end of the Guild Wars story that the PC parted ways with their friends into the Mist of an undefined future. Since in our Personal Story their is no scene where the game acknowledges that your ancestor took part in the events of the first game. And further in the Living Story there is no dialogue from the PC referencing even a single member of Destiny’s Edge unless a member was making a guest appearance.

This to me is indicative of manufactured storytelling. Not a saga.

The Dredge, the Hylek, the Jotun and the Orges are the lesser races that are most likely to provide useful support going forward. The others are curiosities that have limited plot uses beyond festive content maybe – these include the Quaggans and the Skritt.

The races that to me seem completely useless are the Ettins and the Grawl.

PS: Kodan, Largos, Tengu and yet to be written races seem to be likely to be playable thus not included in this discussion.

[Minor Spoiler Alert]

Destiny’s Edge has not played and active part in driving the Lore forward since they lead the Pact in defeating the Elder Dragon, Zhaitan. They have effectively been replaced by the group lead by the PC and Marjory Delaqua ….. with her sister Belinda if the PC is human being a potential love-interest/partner.

Destiny’s Edge have only made guest appearances thus far in the Living Story saga and it seems this state of affair is set to continue. I can’t speak for others but for me personally I have invested myself and had grown attached to Eir Stegalkin and company after playing through the Personal Story on my main three characters and in advance stages with all my other characters – at time of writing.

While I like the newer group well enough I don’t see why there seems to be no place on the stage for the original set of adventuring heroes and heroines…… post Zhaitan.

Kalavier.1097:

Hell, if they investigated and found that out, WHY would they be investigating the queen’s relationships? And even if they were for some reason doing that, BOTH of them (Anise and Jennah) are powerful mesmers who can read minds. That basically means if they want something a secret, nobody would figure it out.

That may well be, but Arenanet has been known to move the Lore direct in a way to suit their needs. A Logan and Kiel partnership will allow Logan the only respected and recognised male human NPC to be significantly relevant as a co-driver of the Humanity aspect of GW2 Lore.

To me his relationship with HRH Jennah does not work. Does nothing for the progression of the Lore. The fact that they can’t be seen together and do not have any scenes together in the Living Story (beyond maybe Queen’s Jubilee) content thus far to me is a proof of this. As a guardian by trade as well as a Seraph Captain and member of Destiny’s Edge he is a very under used character.

This can also be said about Braham he to me comes across as whiney and lacking drive and self confidence. This I think is the result of his childish attitude and disrespectfulness towards his mother Eir Stegalkin, again the result of extreme lack of self-confidence.

To me with Logan and Braham as glaring examples its clear that Arenanet has great difficultly for reasons that to me are a mystery in portraying believable, likeable, respectiable human/norn male main NPC characters.

Ellen Kiel and Logan Thackeray should get together on many levels. Both professionally and on a romantically (- after being brought up to speed by Marjory and Kasmeer that HRH Jennah and Countess Anise are lovers, and have been for quite some time). Logan and Marjory with the support of the PC(since the PC is the leader of the second group) need to work to merge the two groups of adventurers together to co-ordinate their activities and share resources – while operationally function as separate units.

They would need to since based on the limited information released for season two they will have to think and move fast as events will occur in multiple operational theatres – simultaneously. They are playing catch up …again!

Kulvar.1239:

Other races will not let Humans take this place because it’s the economic core of Tyria and they have interests in it too. Giving it to Humans is not acceptable because it’ll give Humans a strong grasp on the world economy and knowing how corrupt can be the Humans leaders, they’ll not tolerate it.

Lion’s Arch is like Suiss, a neutral place that other will defend to protect their interests.

Give Lion’s Arch to Kryta? Human leaders might become corrupt as a result? Says who? Where is your evidence that Human leaders are more likely than leaders of other race to become such.

Firstly, Lion’s Arch was the traditional and original capital of Human Kryta. Secondly please read the Lore. Thridly please read my previous post in this very extended thread. As I have covered may issues and details concerning this.

However it is enough to say that Lion’s Arch as stolen by the pirate cartel using stolen Krytan gold from the wreaked Krytan vessel – Salma’s Grace. This gold paid for the cartel’s massive military muscle – including a navy that could best at that time a much weaken Kryta (Orrian Catalysm – seriously read up on the Lore!!!!). This fact was hidden and undiscovered by the Shining Blade and the Order of Whispers – for reasons I doubt Arenanet want to articulate!

And finally yes the re-annexation of Lion’s Arch – Kryta’s former capital, former main city, former main southern port and sea link to Cantha and Elona – will give an obvious massive economic boost to its National wealth and prestige – power enough to leverage towards building a miltary force(Army, Navy & Air Force) that would rival even the Charr.

But of course no race is even allowed to even be competitive to the Charr in real terms. And definitely not heaven forbid equal to them!!! Most know this to be truth undeniable LOL!

Zaxares.5419:

I wanna be content to write off this thread as a guilty pleasure. :P

I think Pyre was a decent guy charr-wise, absolutely extraordinary given the time period. You don’t. We agree on some things and disagree on others.

Your arguments and reasons are your own and I’ve laid out why I think the way that I do.

See, this is how people can come to understandings despite being on opposite positions. I agree with you that Pyre did some extraordinary things in his time; my feelings on him notwithstanding, there’s no denying the impact he had on Charr history.

We’ve said our pieces, and there’s really not much more to add. Pyre did what he did, and the only person who really knows what his motivations were is himself. At the end of the day, any speculation about it is purely academic in nature.

@Nicholas: Out of curiosity, what does the “HRH” in HRH Jennah stand for?[/quote]

Yes I have enjoyed sparring with you and the others. But yes its true. Most points of contention have been addressed and dissected from enough angles and points of view. And so unless there are significant developments there is not much addition commentary that I may wish to add.

PS: as the “HRH” definition has been explained all good:)

I think Logan Thackeray need to look up Ellen Kiel, get to know her and get on with it for real. And forget about HRH Jennah.

But first he has to work out that Jennah and Countess Anise are using him to hide their true “friendship” – romantic relationship…..

CETheLucid.3964:

We know Logan’s obviously a descendant of Gwen, and the fact that Steve Blum does Pyre… I’d totally bet Rytlock is a descendent of Pyre. It would just be beautifully ironic.

New tangent! Discuss!

Nicholas? I trust you can provide commentary on how this theory is inevitably weakening humanity? Don’t fail me now, soldier!

Lol, lmao. I have nothing against Pyre he’s a respected honorary “human” aka Charr. And Lore wise he is just as likely be a decendant of any of the prominent Charr of that era.

Logan however? seriously he’s written as a social buffoon. He may know a thing or two about swinging a sword but when the day is done, he can’t stop tripping over his own boots to save his life. And he seems to have forgotten that he is a human from Ascalon and more specifically that his home town is actually Ebonhawke, NOT Divinity’s Reach.

So yes his character – or actually lack of it – does in a small way weaken humanity…….

Zaxares.5419:

Mostly it’s about Nicholas arguing that the existing game lore is wrong and how humans can and should be the dominant race in GW2, if only the devs weren’t so biased against them and nerfing them so the 5 races can be “equal”.

Excuse me? Did you say that the races are essentially equal at least at the start of the events of GW2 the game? Seriously?

Also I never said Humanity should be the dominant race as it was in GW(1) in Tyria. Your confused and misguided post is full of errors and statements that I’ve never made or suggested.

Starting with Humanity I believe that they should control the land south of a mostly repaired Great Northern Wall with Ascalon City as its current capital. With the Foefire never taking place. The ruling Dynasty in Human Ascalon is one that started with Devona who became Queen for her leadership achievements of the Ascalon’s Chosen Guild. Rin its former capital in time gradually recovers but is now a military forward operations base ensure the Great Northern Wall is never threaten again.

In Kryta humanity moved its capital away from the southern coast due to the Orrian Catalysm and establishs its new Capital and second city in Divinity Reach.

Kryta then takes back control of Lion’s Arch after finding evidence that the pirate cartel used stolen Krytan gold to build a criminal empire. As a result of having its main port returned to the nation it becomes the main trading centre with Human Ascalon and the rest of Tyria. This trade is on the back of an official alliance between Kryta and Human Ascalon. This alliance ensures the prosperity and security of these two Human kingdoms and allows both to build formidable military and naval forces(Kryta). Thus humanity is now competitive with its neighbours – far from dominant since Orr is lost and the Elder Dragons have pushed the Asura out from underground. And the emergence of the Sylvari as a new Tyrian major race.

As for the Norn and the Charr? They now see that Humanity has recovered from the insanity that was the Guild Wars that almost shattered all three Kingdoms. And thus once more a relatively stable and strong race that is deserving of their respect.

The Charr seeing that the Human Kingdoms have a solid military and trade alliance with each other realise that their ambition to take all of the Tyrian human lands for themselves is now effectively extinguished. Thus the High Legions now acknowledge the need to negotiate with the Human alliance to secure their mutual borders.

This approximates what I think should have been a possible and likely outcome of the events after that of the first game.

Kalavier.1097:

Only Ebonhawke isn’t really attacked by the branded these days. The region isn’t a wasteland at all, they have forests (thin, but there) and grass growing. Not the best land, but NOT a wasteland. Fields of Ruin is human land, though the charr have a base to watch over the brand and a research base for the brand as well.

Eastern Ascalon is devoid of many large settlements (there are a few though) because of the brand making land travel extremely tough, if not impossible. It is not a wasteland at all (I fail to understand how you even can picture that…), it’s just you can’t ship goods back to BC safely, can’t ship goods in… so why set up a ranch over there? or a town? or a mine?

Again, how the heck is Fields of Ruin a wasteland?

Have you actually looked at how close the Dragonbrand corruption is in relation to the Fields of Ruin? seriously? We are talking about from the point of view of a travelling merchant that is considering the risk level of travelling to and from Lion’s Arch/Ebonhawke by road.

The Dragonbrand is an effective land barrier. Only trained soldiers would risk road travel . And as to the region having villages/settlements/small holdings and farms? That is clearly an uninformed design decision. No civilian would establish any type of farm or settlement anywhere near the corruption.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Really? I see Sentinels doing that work of containment and disruption, not human forces. I see human forces working to claim some areas to expand into, and loan Ebon Vanguard to attack some ogre targets just inside the southern Blazeridge Steppes. Targets which, I will note, are not acted on unless human strike teams also engage.

Again, please, keep going on about how humanity is of no use to anyone.

You have effectively confirmed my point and agreed with me. The East Ascalon regions is effectively a no-go area with no major settlements and no sense of stability than can be claimed my either race. The situation is very fluid and could go either way.

As far Humanity gaining anything from their current situation? No they will not. Kryta has limited options and limited resources due to being block by the Centaur tribal clans to the north(with the Dredge behind them) and thus cutting off safe trade routes to the Norn. And thanks to Arenanet taking Lion’s Arch from the Krytan Crown control Humanity’s access to the south and the sea is limited too. To the east a land route is extremely dangerous with again major sources of danger among them the Centaurs, the Bandits and of course the Dragonbrand corruption – thus access is limited to the Asura Gates.

Its can clearly be seen that the only way forward for Humanity is a safe trade route out into the world that it has complete and direct access and control. That access route passes through Lion’s Arch. It is the most direct access to Cantha and Elona to the south.

Thus for Tyrian Humanity to truly prosper beyond it current circumstance it MUST have full and effective control of its only safe window to the world outside of Tyria. That window has a name. And its name is: Lion’s Arch.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

There are other contributions than projecting military force outside the borders of where you live. Not everything in the world boils down to the strength of a closed fist.

That level of contribution would be best be considered as a support role as best. But its more likely to not only a support role, but also a minor role. Such a role would do no favours for the human race in Tyria. The more powerful races would be grateful ….. but NOT respectful of Humanity. Some among the more powerful races would go so far to view Humanity with contempt. And we have seem evidence of this throughout Tyria in the events of the current game.

Where-as the Asura and Charr are held in high regard in terms of their overall strength as nations the same is far from universal for Humanity.

And so my view that Humanity in reality is seen as a little more than a joke and at best a charity case – holds, and holds firm. Humanity is effectively only allowed to contribute where extra coverage is needed in a non-priority mission/target. Leaving high-value tasks and rewards for themselves. Proof of this is Ebonhawke and the Field of Ruin region. The area is a virtual wasteland of marginal value, and thus Humanity is allowed to keep their city to contain the threat from the Dragonbrand corruption. This is the reality of Humanity in Tyria at this point in time.

Kalavier.1097:

There are MANY factors in deploying an army. Logistics, numbers, current deployments, threats in the area at home and elsewhere.

another edit: I don’t demand blind acceptance of the status quo. I’m all for what ifs and discussions of the like. I’m against people who only take a single viewpoint and refuse to think of any other as being possible (Like you’ve been). People who refuse to think about the many aspects involved in such a situation, how other people may react, their mindsets, etc.

You have obvious not followed(/read in any great detail), nor have read not only my current series of posts. But also a previous series which details How Devona as the leader of the guild Ascalon’s Chosen should have started a new Dynasty in Human Ascalon with its capital being Ascalon City – with the Foefire never having occurred as a result of a formal alliance agreement between Human Ascalon and Kryta – negotiations made possible by the mutual friendship and trust between the heroes and heroines of both Human nations.

You have also obviously ignored in both series how I at length and in detail cover the mechanics of the machinery of nations – how commerce, logistics, supply, military might, coverage and many other factors work together to produce outcomes not just in terms of how much land a nation can hold, but how an efficient, wealthy and militarily powerful nation/race can as a whole use this massive pool of prestige – to negotiate favourable terms with other nations and of course the Orders of Tyria.

Kalavier.1097:

Nich, I can’t take you seriously when you literally reply about the evidence supporting the side opposite of you with “WELL IT DON’T COUNT. CAUSE ANET WANTED STORY TO GO THAT WAY SO THAT’S WHY. OTHERWISE IT WOULDN’T GO THAT WAY CAUSE REASONS!”

Obviously exaggerating the tone/volume, but that’s the message you are giving. Guess what? When an author wants a story to go a certain way, they introduce things to make it happen. Anet, I’m pretty sure, wanted to have a neutral city where all the races interacted and mingled, and that’s why LA is the way it is, NOT some evil scheme to weaken humanity.

Not and “evil” scheme to weaken Humanity to nothing more than a joke? Again with your circular argument. Again with your base-less accusations. Since your accusations mere re-states the status-quo. You believe that your not anti-human and are an open-minded and informed individual yet by your words and by your reaction to those that oppose you calls into question this persona.

Your and your peers have shown that you lack the ability to isolate the facts independent of its placement in Lore. Its obvious that you cannot accept any substantial opposition to how events and outcomes come to be in GW2 Lore.

You are blind of reality that as things stand Humanity cannot make a meaningful contribution to Tyria beyond maintaining order in Kryta and the city of Ebonhawke. It is incapable of projecting force that can called a substantial amount of military might on its own.

Where as its clear that the Asura and the Charr can. Despite this reality you believe that there is no “evil scheme” against Humanity. You are obviously been indoctrinated.

The real question is why should I take you seriously? What have you contributed to this discussion beyond demanding blind acceptance of the status quo?

Kalavier.1097:

Nich, you’ve yet to acknowledge the fact that tyhe KRytan Crown had a chance to retake LA by force.. and they in the end granted it freedom.

You keep ranting about how the ONLY REASON LA is free is because at the time the Crown couldn’t reconquer it with force or otherwise due to being weakened, but that’s only true somewhat for Baede, not his successor.

You haven’t worked it out yet have you? The real reason why none of the holders of the Krytan Crown were allowed to work towards/and or retake Lion’s Arch is because Arenanet want to ensure that they are completely unable to seriously rival the Charr in military might. That is truth undeniable.

Since its clear that it would only be a matter of time before the Crown would have been alerted of the true source of the wealth of the pirate cartel from Shining Blade/Order of Whispers operatives. And this would likely have occurred well before HRH Jennah was born.

Kalavier.1097:

This is the problem, you keep claiming that everything LA has done is illegal and the treaties worthless, yet you cannot back them with actual lore knowledge. You state the other races would accept evidence of such, but don’t even show it here. Meanwhile we have explicit proof of a king of Kryta having the ability to take back the city (Which is contrary to your statement of it being allowed freedom only because Kryta was recovering), and granted them freedom.

Kalavier you have failed do disprove my argument. And you ignore all the proof I have detailed in my previous posts. You and those that side with you are equally blind to one central fact.

And that is that GW/GW2 Lore is written with only sufficient depth to explain the direction of the story with just enough details – so that it can be reviewed/revised at a future date.

So IF ONE such as I were to disagree at best (as I have on numerous occasions) I can only point to events in question and fill in the details base on the cause and effect of what should have happen base on the limited amount of facts given.

Obviously I will NOT be able to find any lengthy passage in Lore that would completely/essentially comfirm my view of what soon happen – since I’m DISAGREEING with the logic the direction the Lore.

The Lore is written on the assumption that most/all would agree with its progression and so makes only minimal effort to explain its movement/motivations forward.

Of course you and your peers will make circular argument(s) to disagree with this post like with most of my previous statements of opinion.

Sartharina.3542:

We’ve kinda moved on from arguing about taking Ascalon to Kryta trying to take Lion’s Arch back instead.

Thank you for making this point. However the ownership of Lion’s Arch would have a material impact on the ability of the Crown and thus humanity capability to enlarge and solidify the Ebonhawke Territory. Since it is known that at this time the hinterlands of the fortified city state is still very much corrupted by the Dragonbrand and its minions.

As to what options HRH Queen Jennah there is not sufficient information of the actual and potential facts of the region. Since may I suggest the main reason being is that Arenanet does not wish for humanity to gain any additional advantage that would significantly add to its overall strength in Tyria.

For if humanity were allowed to stablise the Ebonhawke hinterlands that would materially strengthen humanity since this would allow the fortified city to become relatively self-sufficient. An Ebonhawke that is effectively self-sufficient would free-up massive amounts of Krytan funds and resources – with obvious ramifications for the strength of Humanity as a whole in Tyria.

May I also add that had the Crown known of the material fact that the pirate cartel was fund and armed primarily with stolen Krytan gold – depending on at which point this fact is uncovered – the consent of the Crown and its peace accord with the pirate cartel would have been torn-up or not have been agreed to.

Secondly the Lionguard would have moved to evacuate the surviving population of Lion’s Arch under the order of the Crown of Kryta as a direct result of its destruction. Thus the bulk of the Lionguard at that time would have moved with the Crown and have actively participated in the construction of Divinity’s Reach.

This task would solidify the Lionguard’s continual allegiance to the Crown and the people of Kryta since the new city was now the capital and the center of Krytan life and culture. They the Lionguard would not have stayed behind to guard over the site of a ruin port or its vicinity. Thus would not any contact with the pirate cartel independent of the wishes of the Crown of Kryta.

On the subject of the position of the Pact nations and its member Orders. Why would they support a rogue organisation that entered into an agreement it was not entitled to? Seriously!

The monies that they transact on was not theirs. Thus have no means to complete their contractual obligations – to protect the interest of Lion’s Arch on behalf of the Crown. That contract was also an agreement to purchase Lion’s Arch from the Crown. Both agreements now made null and void as a result of the overwhelming amount of stolen funds – that was not known of by the Crown at the time of signing.

We know that the Crown did not know of the final fate “Salma’s Grace” funds since if they had known the peace accord would ever have been drawn up – and definitely not written into Law. Thus I ask again. On what grounds would the Pact nations and the Orders of Tyria support/uphold the sovereignty of Lion’s Arch as a “Free City”?

I put to you that they as a group would find no grounds to support any claim of the Captain’s Council. As such all treaties and contracts made with Lion’s Arch become immediately worthless.

Further why would humanity led by HRH Queen Jennah have to wage a protracted campaign to re-claim Lion’s Arch for the Crown? With the requested aid from the Pact Treaty nations and the Orders of Tyria it would be over in a few days or even a few days.

Since once its been established that the Captain’s Council does not have the support of the Orders or the other Pact nations, they would be left with no choice but to surrender or die.

Kalavier.1097:

Again, the orders are not under the command of ANYBODY. if they were, the races wouldn’t assign you to work alongside the orders and figure a plan out. The queen/legions/council would just go “Eh, do that guys plan and be done with it!”

Again, you fail to provide REASONS why ALL the other races would instantly work with Kryta over this. For one I can factually prove your statement as false because the Norn wouldn’t care, Knut’s word is law only in Hoelbrek.

The legions likely wouldn’t get involved. Arcane council I see just sitting aside. Sylvari wouldn’t get involved. The orders wouldn’t join forces for reasons I already posts. OoW and vigil would be against it as it’s actively working to split allied forces that could be against the dragons (and OoW’s thing is getting everybody allied, in whatever means possibly). Priory would have the historical proof to show that LA is entirely legal. Hell, again, even IF Jennah went crazy and tried pulling that, the ministry would block it and work against it. They would never send the military forces needed to take the city as opposed to having those guys fighting the centaurs back.

Vigil was formed by a random group of people… OoW predates every active nation on the surface ATM (meaning they were active before Asura surfaced, and before iron legion became the ‘head’ of the charr). Priory was founded by a neutral historian as I recall.

NONE are forced to obey any nation. MANY of their recruits are also people from all walks of life, a number with no military training at all.

Again, Jennah’s proof basically would instantly be countered with “The Krytan crown itself said this city was independent, with two different kings thinking that no less. They are entirely Legal.”

What is the undeniable proof that “LA is occupied by a rogue cartel of pirates, and the entire setup is illegal” because I think I’ve proven they are entirely legal to the viewpoint of Kryta.

The Orders of Tyria are only notionally indenpendant. That is to say that they may operate as they will on the approval of the five patron races. Your argument that the five races and the three orders would essential ignore any move by Humanity to reclaim Kryta’s former Capital that was stolen from them is without merit. You assume that the opinion of Tyria is that Lion’s Arch was legally independent and of the best interest of all to remain as such is without basis. Since you continue to ignore one of the main arguments against it being seen as legal by anyone in Tyria.

The Crown was forced to give its consent to the Pirate Cartel since at the time it simple did not have the resources to hold on to it due. NOT because of the normal operation and function of the Nation at the time. But because it was still recovering from being shattered and devastated by a massive tidal-wave.

If not for that event. There would have been NO opportunity for the cartel to take and hold it. Again it must be acknowledged that the only reason the cartel was able to field a military force of sufficient size to make an attack on it unjustifiable and doomed to likely failure is because of a singular fact. The gold from the sunken Krytan naval vessel “Salma’s Grace” financed the ablility of the cartel buy personnel and equipement of the best quality and in vast numbers. Without the “Salma’s Grace” gold the cartel would not have been able to hold the ruin city.

This set of events would ensure that HRH Jennah would have solid grounds to formally request aid on behalf of humanity to re-take Lion’s Arch for Kryta and Humanity. The annexation of Lion’s Arch would not be seen as against the interest of the other four races. Why would it?

On what grounds would the other races believe that they have shared claim of Lion’s Arch? It was a sovereign territory of Kryta. Since this is one of the central pillars to back the shared ownership of Lion’s Arch, what is the basis of this claim?

There is none – other than that is how the Lore has now been written. Despite there being no historical justification other than the Crown being force to give its consent due to the series of events as I have illustrated in detail in my previous posts – as it was written in GW2 Lore.

Dustfinger.9510:

Kalavier.1097:

Do care to provide this irrefutable evidence that the other nations would openly accept Kryta screaming about LA being ruled illegally? IT was destroyed after all, and then the crown gave the council legitimacy and power by allowing them to remain independent. After LA was destroyed Kryta stopped controlling it.

My guess is that it will be the same evidence that says no one deals with the USA because it forced Great Britains hand in an ‘illegal fashion’.

D. The major races don’t have the power to allow or disallow the operation of the orders. remember that the Order of Whispers has been operating since palawa’s fall.

Actually as the co-sponsors of the member Orders of Tyria the major racess as a group DO have the power to dictate the function of their operation in complete sense.

Since ALL the personnel of the three Orders are citizens of Tyria and/or their racial homelands. And the five major races rule over said lands and have the authority to decide who may exploit resources, who may trade and who may live within the boundaries of the domain the respective racial leaders have responsibility for and thus rule over.

These personnel essentially come to the Orders fully trained and are the among best in their chosen profession/class. Since that is the requirement as I understand it. And often they come directly from being part of the militaries of the major races.

For the major races to allow this to occur there obviously has to be a formal agreement between the Orders and the Races of Tyria. Since all three have been operating internationally for some time.

This level of co-operation and co-existence shows clear and mutual trust between the heads of all five major races – trust that has matured and developed in the years since the events of GW(1).

Thus when HRH Jennah the recognised leader of all humanity in Tyria shows undeniable proof that Kryta’s former capital and main port has been occupied by a rogue cartel of pirates – the Races of Tyria will mobilise and neutralise the criminals – without mercy – unless the Captain’s Council give their complete official surrender to the Crown of Kryta.

Zaxares.5419:

I think we have another Adelbern in the making here, guys. >.>

The other races were happy to effective approve of the “The Searing” of Human Ascalon – and this was without formal political discussion between the races of Tyria.

This scenario is different since this case has been proven beyond reasonable doubt to all. This does not need to result in bloodshed that is so absolute. But if the real and actual threat of it is not a reality then the mission will fail.

Thus to assure the minimum lost of life all must be fully informed and all must be resolute – without mercy. mercy is for those who admit in this case their guilt and surrender. No admission of guilt – No mercy.

Additionally. Its clear that some do not comprehend that the Pact Treaty is NOT just an agreement between The Orders of Tyria. The Orders would need the backing as in Financial, Equipment, Supplies, Munitions, Logistics – all the requirements of relevant Miltary and/or Intelligence organisation that operate on an international level – which all three do.

There is no logical way that the Order can operate independent of the political apparatus of the five major races of Tyria. I mean seriously! Does anyone actually believe that the five races would actually allow the operation of these three Orders without have an actual oversight arrangement? Really???

Kalavier.1097:

Frankly, half your statements (to me) make no sense, and the other half come across as “This is how things went/should have went because I SAY SO. Not because actual canon/lore backing.”

Again your statements do not add anything to the discussion. It does prove that despite the FACT that I have proven beyond reasonable doubt that my understanding of fact events DO have FULL BACKING in Lore, you and others like you ignore it. As to my statements being essential formed on the basis of my personal “I SAY SO”. Seriously? Really are you actually serious and of sound mind when you wrote that?

The Orders of Tyria would make their own inquiries and form their own conclusions. The Order of Whispers would among other consult with Kryta’s Shining Blade organisation to assist with the confirmation of the facts of the political situation in Kryta as in regards to the legal status of Lion’s Arch and the claims of HRH Jennah.

This along with their direct intelligence gathering would confirm the truth. Which is that the occupation of Lion’s Arch by the Captains Council is manifestly ILLEGAL.

This report by the Order of Whispers would then be tabled to the other two components of the Pact to establish the Orders view of the Sovereignty claims of both political entities.

As for the Crown of Kryta moving on to annexation of Lion’s Arch -returning its former Capital City (yes it was the Capital of Kryta – pre-Orrian Catalysm) – it woul have the full unqualified support of the Pact and further could be called upon to provide “resources” to restore order by all means deemed nessessary by the Crown on Kryta.

Since may I remind you that the five major races of Tyria are the actual patrons/backers of the Pact. The other four races would be bound to assist Humanity as a member of this Pact to assist in neutralising without mercy any and ALL opposition that may arise in the annexation of Lion’s Arch up to and including the port’s complete destruction.

Kalavier.1097:

Who said they call themselves a Sovereign state? last I checked it was an independent city (or a city-state), not a nation.

Also, again, LA has enough treaties with various groups Kryta trying to take out would likely harm Kryta and trade in general.

If the other main races were so informed of what I have thus far described in my previous posts: ALL Lion’s Arch Treaties and agreements will have be considered NULL AND VOID since they have knowing entered into negotiations with a rogue state.

A city-state can be a Sovereign state – and Lion’s Arch is currently operating as such – since it does not recognise the authority of the Crown of Kryta to act on it’s behalf in any capacity.

Sartharina.3542:

They are only possibly considered Criminals and part of Kryta by the Krytans of Divinity’s Reach. The Ascalonians of the Black Citadel, Metricans of Rata Sum, and Shiverpeak Mountaineers of Hoelbrak all consider it to be a nation as soveriegn and independent as themselves: Queen Jennah trying to annex Lion’s Arch would be met with the same reaction as her trying to annex Rata Sum, The Black Citadel, or Hoelbrak. While the Sylvari of the Grove are powerful allies against the dragons and Undead of Orr, they are largely irrelevant in the intracontinental political landscape.

The Charr and Asura have strong interest in keeping Lion’s Arch independent – The Asura want their free trade protected, and the Charr don’t trust a human-dominated city to be fair to them – especially not one that they have such strained tensions with. Lion’s Arch is ruled by a multiracial captain’s council.

As for the Orrian threat – if the Krytans under the Crown of Divinity’s Reach prove belligerent and try annexing the sovereign city-state despite the strain that would put on the alliance between the Asura, Humans, Charr, and Norn, and don’t back down against Asuran economic injunctions or a show of force from the Charr or their Norn drinking buddies (And Asuran think-tank and R&D partners), Lion’s Arch just needs to hold out long enough for the other races and Lion’s Arch to renegotiate their treaties and alliances to exclude the Krytans of Divinity’s Reach in favor of the Harathi Centaurs and Freemen of Kryta.

On what basis would the foreign powers consider Lion’s Arch to be a sovereign state? Its clear that support for the legitimacy of the Captain’s Council is based purely on maintaining the status quo. The ancestors of the Captain’s Council forced the Crown to give-up claim to the city when it was still recovering from the devastation caused by the Orrian catalysm – using stolen Krytan funds – to build a military force capable of repelling Kryta of that era.

As I have at length described in my previous post – had Kryta been able to fully recover fully from the impact of the tidalwave that destroyed Lion’s Arch and crippled the entire national economy of Kryta at the time – there was no way the Crown would have been forced into the situation it found itself in.

The other races would have known of this truth since the Crown would have informed their Ambassador’s of the particulars of these series of events. Thus they the other four major races would be in NO POSITION to hold the view that the Captain’s Council-lead Lion’s Arch has any legitimate claim to sovereignty.

Further the other four major races would expect HRH Jennah to put down this rebellion as part of her leadership of her own country in exchange for their full respect and aid to repel any current or future threat coming from Orr.

Since the Orrian threat does not only threaten Kryta but the whole of Tyria.

Dustfinger.9510:

Kalavier and Sartharina hit it pretty well.

Have they? They have just illustrated my point even more clearer than I have thus far. Yes the Crown in the personage of King Beade did concede defeat since the Krytan nation at the time did not have the resources to defend its borders and was seriously economically crippled.

And as the opinions of the occupants of Lion’s Arch? How would their position be anything other than insistent that they have legitimate claim to the city? Of course they would claim Lion’s Arch as their own. A criminal of course would claim that what he or she is able to steal and keep is rightfully theirs to hold and their peers would thus accept this – since they all are the same – enemies of the state.

Once HRH Jennah presents her claims to her people through the full seating of Ministry body with all representatives present – it would be clear to all that the claims of the occupiers of Lion’s Arch – can be declared NULL AND VOID.

Thus the her findings as well the agreement of The Krytan Ministry would be documented and officially recorded. Copies would then be sent to the Ambassadors of the other four major races informing them that the occupiers of Lion’s Arch have been found to be guilty of high treason and are thus enemies of the state – and therefore do not have the right to call on any of them for protection.

And its clear that I must again remind the interested parties that the resources that the rogue city-state of Lion’s Arch possesses are the result of the “recovered” gold from the sunken Krytan naval vessel – Salma’s Grace. This gold massively enhanced the financial power of this pirate cartel allowing them to buy the best ships, equipment and crews to match. All of which as has been made clear in the official Lore as well as myself and interested parties.

The preference of foreign powers as the to the governance of a sovereign (stolen)possession of Kryta is outside their jurisdiction. And yes I have written it based of the facts as it was presented to us all, post Orrian Cataclysm. An plot device of Arenanet’s own design. As was the process by which the theft of a sovereign Krytan territorial possession was written into GW2 Lore.

Since Lion’s Arch was stolen from the people of Kryta. Further the governance preferences of the current people of Lion’s Arch must be set aside since they are part of a criminal organisation – thus voiding their otherwise guaranteed right of self-determination. The foreign powers would have no choice but to acknowledge this truth. Thus all their possessions would be taken from them leaving them nothing – since their all criminals – that’s if Queen Jennah wants to go that far – she can if she sees fit to. She may grant an amnesty to the common traders but not the members of the Captain’s Council and their staff.

How much faith should any Krytan place on the even handed-ness of the Crown? As much as they did when Kryta was ruled by Queen Salma.

The current series of events as of the Festival of the Four Winds would never have occurred as now described. And Lion’s Arch’s rebuilding is for the purpose of Krytan Trade with the rest of Tyria – for the benefit of the whole Krtan nation not just this rogue institution. Jennah would still open the Queen’s Pavilion to help raise funds – but for rebuilding a Lion’s Arch under direct rule of the Krytan Crown – of which she holds.

You seem to be under the strong illusion that a Lion’s Arch under Crown rule would disallow open and fair trade with the rest of the world? Seriously? Are you sure YOUR not under the effects of a powerful Mesmer???

Dustfinger.9510:

The Lionguard have no duty and have sworn no allegiance to the Krytan Queen. Might as well try to obligate all of the United States to fulfill their duty to Great Britain.

In the instance of the United States the secession from the rule of the British Crown was the singular will of the peoples of the Amercian colonies of that era. Thus and only thus the break from the Crown was valid.

In the case of Kryta at the time just after the Catalysm the duty of the Crown was to marshal all its forces and resources to put back the nation as best it could and as swiftly as it were able. However it was the will of the majority that all of Kryta as they knew it be retained by the Crown on behalf of the people.

It was NOT the will of the people to allow a cartel to take their former main city and port away from them to do as they will. And so yes the Lionguard still should be legally bound to serve Kryta under the rule of the Crown – at this time that means HRH Jennah. Since this too is the will of the Krytan people.

Dustfinger.9510:

The Lionguard at this time have nothing to do with Kryta. They are run by a Norn and that norn just happens to be on the Captains Council. How do you imagine Queen jenna is going to ‘order’ them to turn on the Captains council?

If it had to take this long I will still very much expect the Lionguard to do their duty to their Queen. Since if things were set right after the Cataclysm tidal-wave they the Lionguard would still awe their allegiance to the Crown – exclusively and thus in this time serve Jennah as their absolute ruler.

Any resistance from the Captain’s Council would result in the execution of all members of the council and their staff – without mercy. This would be justice. And seen by all Krytans as such, since its the duty of the Crown to protect the interests and safety of all Krytans regardless of race or creed.

Dustfinger.9510:

Arrests the captains Council? For the crime of doing exactly what Kryta told them they could do 3 generation ago? That is as illogical as it gets. especially in the midst of this world ending dragon snafoo.

Really? – “told them they could”?? Seriously???

At that time Kryta was suffering from a total economic meltdown as a result of a massive tidalwave that destroyed their main city – Lion’s Arch which also was the seat of power of the ruling Dynasty of Kryta of which Queen Jennah is a member of.

The nation was in a state of a national emergency. So when a pirate cartel comes and takes control or your ruined main city what do you think Kryta was able to really do about it? In a word NOTHING!

At that time if Divinity Reach if it existed it was only in the early stages of construction. Also one has to understand the limitation of in-game design. The Lionguard of Queen Salma’s day was not a police/milita organisation.

The Lionguard at that time served as the security forces of Kryta the military. I would say that the Shining Blade served as a police force as well as Salma’s person guard. Since which other organisation could serve as such when your country just got shattered??

The why Lore is written makes no sense in reality. The funding she is providing should be part of a situation where Kryta takes over the wreckage of LA and take all gold from the site as hers. Since it is.

All the gold earned can be traced back to facilitated by the Salma’s Grace gold thus its Kryta’s gold NOT the Captain’s Council. Lion’s Arch by right never left Krytan hands.

The Crown like’s Lion’s Arch very much since it is the jewel in the crown of Human Krytan prosperity. The wealth of Lion’s Arch belongs to Kryta alone. This does not mean that it can’t continue to be a multi-racial center of trade. It just means that it is administered and taxed on behalf of the Crown – for the benefit of the citizens of the city and Kryta.

The way Jennah is currently written – is to me is illogical. She is not acting like a monarch. She should want to serve her country and show leadership. That means making the tough calls. That means taking back Lion’s Arch by all means available to Kryta – this includes the full might of all of the Lionguard, the Seraph, the Shining Blade to arrest the Captain’s Council and charge them with treason and crimes against the state of Kryta.

Let’s be clear I never claimed that any institution of Kryta serve any individual at a personal level. I do however wish for clarity and uniformity in GW2-Krytan Lore. The “Crown” and “The Throne” are the same terms in that they are both used to specifically say that the defenders of Kryta server whoever rightfully holds the right to rule Kryta and serve as its monarch. As of the current events in Kryta that resides in the personage of Queen Jennah.

Thus all defenders of human Kryta owe their allegiance to her ( with the exception of the the Captain’s Council). It should however be noted that the Captain’s Council is only tolerated by the Crown and is NOT accepted as legal entity. Since the founding and establishment of city state was made possible by a series of opportunistic circumstances – which included the use of significant Krytan funds from a sunken naval vessel – Salma’s Grace (http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Cobiah_Marriner). The Crown of Kryta as a result would rightful see the Captain’s Council as a rogue institution.

Only the clear and present danger of the Elder Dragon’s is preventing the Crown’s moving to recover its stolen possession – Lion’s Arch.

Which havens are you referring to? all towns and villages in Kryta are under Krytan Crown control. And obviously patrolled by the Lionguard. As mention and stated before the gold guarded by the Lionguard are Krytan monies – as in Queen Jennah’s.

There is no way that Lion Arch control and settlements outside of the metropolitan area of the port. It clear that Arenanet has confused their own Lore. Seriously are you saying that Queen Jennah only rules Divinity’s Reach and its hinterlands (Queensdale etc) only? and that LA control the rest of Kryta?

Seriously?

This is my confusion even with GW2 – Krytan Lore. The current political status quo makes no sense at all. The Lionguard traditionally form the bulk of the military of the Krytan Crown. They protect the interest of the ruling Dynasty of Kryta – and that means Queen Jennah.

To have them under the control of a LA not controlled by the Crown is the height of Lunacy and yet another clear example of an undeniable anti-human bias.

Since with direct and full control of Lion’s Arch the Krytan Crown can once again be a beacon of human prosperity and strength.

In case people have forgotten Scarlet Briar destroyed/level most of the infrastructure of Lion’s Arch. The Lionguard owe their allegiance not to Lion’s Arch from where it got its name from but to the Crown of Kryta. As in the Lionguard are the standard soldiers of the modern Krytan military – with the Seraph, The Shining Blade and the Ministry Guards on top.

And now since the Captain’s Council is now not able to finance their wages …. . Only the Crown has the monies to pay their wages and supply them – all thanks to Scarlet Briar.

As for the Asura Gates, while the Asura are due they fees etc. The nations of Tyria cannot allow free and unlimited use of them. Think about it – criminals/bandits could use the Asura Gates to escape the law.

And so claiming neutrality and allowing free and unlimited use just cannot happen and thus cannot be canon or remain as such. The Asuran would of course see the sense of this and agree that the use of their Gates be within the direct control of the Regional governments of the day, since all cherish their own sovereignty and security & safety of their respective citizens.

Zaxares.5419:

Lion’s Arch is not officially part of Kryta, however. It is an independent city state. Back during GW1, it was (and it was even the seat of Krytan royalty), but following Zhaitan’s rise and the destruction of the old Lion’s Arch, it was repopulated by people who held no loyalty to Kryta.

Nicholas is right about one thing though. Control of Lion’s Arch is important insofar as it is a central transit hub for trade and travellers. However, the move of the Asura gates to Vigil Keep proves that the Asura can quickly move this hub to a different location if needed. As such, Lion’s Arch itself is mostly irrelevant apart from its role as a port (which is admittedly not a minor thing). If Kryta were to take over Lion’s Arch, I suspect that traders would just move to a new central trading hub (if Krytan taxes on trade proved unfavorable), and that new location would end up being the new “melting pot” city. (I vote for the Labyrinthine Cliffs! )

Seriously? LA is NOT an independent state to the point that is a separate country in its own right. Read my recent posts and more importantly read the official wiki.

Also the operation and use of the Asura Gates is not governed by the Asurans. The use of the Gates for private and commercial use would depend on the rules and regulations of that country while being operationally governed by the city council on a local level. The Crown would not disrupt legal commercial activity unless it impedes the security of Kryta.

Dustfinger.9510:

Nicholas S Lin.6187:

Also how would Crown control of Lion’s Arch be of any international interest? The political status of Lion’s Arch is a Krytan domestic issue. And so long as the freedom and security of its citizens continue to be guaranteed and all the rights upheld – foreign powers can do nothing.

This is all dependant on how the politics of LA have intermingeled with other nations.

Your opinion assumes that Lion’s Arch is international territory. It is not. It is a domestic situation and although foreign interests have current commercial interest within Lion’s Arch their governments do NOT have political jurisdiction.

Kalavier.1097:

1: Valid point. Centaurs are the main threat bar dragons toward Kryta.
2: No, Kryta gave LA freedom to operate independently, retaking it would set everybody else off and against humanity.
3: True.
4: Why? LA is not ruled by Kryta, and is a multi racial group. Even then they have different focuses.
5: see above.
6: which is happening anyway.

Human’s aren’t militarily weak and disorganized. They do have their hands full with the centaurs however.

I strongly beg to differ and your last line confirms my point. An organised military establishment would guarantee among other things – the neutralisation of the Centaur threat – permanently.

The Krytan crown did not voluntarily and of its own accord give the peoples it’s a free hand to govern themselves. It was forced to agree because at the time it was military weak. And It’s still is weak, as per the events thus far.

Direct Krytan control of Lion’s Arch does not mean that the operation of commercial activities will be in any way restricted or adversely affected. It will mean that the taxation funds will not have a completely commercial focus. Significant funds would now go to assist the whole of Kryta – NOT just the lifestyles of the commercial magnates of the port. Also how would Crown control of Lion’s Arch be of any international interest? The political status of Lion’s Arch is a Krytan domestic issue. And so long as the freedom and security of its citizens continue to be guaranteed and all the rights upheld – foreign powers can do nothing.

These interest(s) of course will including funding the Krytan military and thus exterminating the Centaurs from Krytan lands – as well as limiting bandit activity.

Since It’s now agreed that the five races are not equal and that teir natural characteristic remain very much intact if only temporarily hidden beneath the surface for the sake of playing nice while there are Elder Dragons to fight…. what happens after?

How does Humanity keep Kryta and Ebonhawke in Tyria to say nothing for the moment about the other continents? It seems to be arenanet has done everything possible to ensure that not only are the humans are militarily weak and disorganised – they will remain that way or die.

For humanity to recover and ensure prosperity and security in need to:
- Neutralise the Centaurs as a threat to the daily lives of its citizens.
- Re-take full and effective control of its main commercial and trade center – Lion’s Arch.
- Ensure the continual security of The Stronghold of Ebonhawke and its territories.
- Merge the Seraph and the Lionguard into a single military organisation.
- Have the Shining Blade and the Seraph select they members from the best of the Lionguard – since both continue to serve as the elite of the Krytan military.
– The Ebon Vanguard remain and continue to serve Human Ascalon – which is effectively Ebonhawke for now….

Zaxares.5419:

I’ve missed a couple of pages. What exactly is this “Deldrimor Legacy” you’re talking about?

Its a phase that I’ve made-up to group the collective remains of the Deldrimor Dwarves civilisation – its building, equipment and all they’ve left behind as a result of them becoming undead as the result of " The Great Dwarf" spell.

Sartharina.3542:

That’s because Humans had the most to lose, and Charr had the most to gain. Yes, the history between them is in Charr’s favor – but that’s because Humans were sitting at 99% influence, and Charr were at 1%, The humans needed to take a dive in power in order to enter an equilibrium with the other races, and Charr were the only ones they were directly antagonistic to.

Humans took a dive, going from dominating 80% of the world down to ~32% of the world. The Asura and Sylvari managed to carve out ~10% of the world each for themselves. With the absolute destruction of the dwarves (Humans can’t kitten about their losses), the Norn managed to expand to about 15% influence over the world, and drove the dredge down to 5%.

The Charr, on the other hand, started with 2% of the world, and with the help of the Flame Legion jumped to 18% of the world. Humans are still stronger than they are, despite the near total loss of Ascalon. Even then, it’s not complete, because humans have enough influence in Ascalon that the remaining Separatists are just as big a threat to Charr sovereignty as the Ghosts and Branded, Ebonhawke and its surrounding lands are still human territory, and the Ebon Vanguard are significant contributors holding the line against the brand.

The Charr now have 90% (Discounting uninhabitable areas caused by excessive ghost infestations, Separatist strongholds, Dredge fortress-mines, and draconic corruption) of Ascalon. The humans still have Kryta, Elona, Cantha, and 10% of Ascalon (Discounting uninhabitable areas caused by centaurs, pirates, plague, dredge, grawl, and draconic corruption).

The only reason the humans have “Lost all the ground, lost all the land” is because they were the only ones with ground and land to lose!

Humans currently have an effective power of around 32% as at the start of the events of GW2? seriously? You must be joking. I mean come on!

What ever the actual percentage was. It’s clear that they started with much less than that. Personally I would estimate effective military capability in comparison to the other four races at present to be much, much less that 20%.

Look at the awesome-ness of the Charr High Legions and the Technological and Scientific brilliance of the Asura. The is no way that the Humans of GW2 as they are now are remotely comparable.

Kalavier.1097:

Nicholas S Lin.6187:

Sartharina.3542:

Not Anti-human and Pro-Charr. Just not Pro-Human at the Expense of Everything Else. Humans have to fight for what they want to have, just like everyone else. Even then, they’re still one of the strongest and most populous races in Tyria. They’ve just been pared back to everyone else’s level for now. There’s no “entitling” at all. If anything, the entitlement is for humans believing they are owed and entitled to land they have proven incapable of holding. Your own argument is that non-humans are not entitled to claim any land they hold or have held in Tyria because they are not humans.

My views have never been Pro-Human at the expense of other race if the passing of the last 200 years between the events of the two games was reasonably balanced and fair. For the most part it has been, with one major exception. Human vs. Charr.

In the case between the two it is the humans that have lost all the ground, lost all the land. The only time the Charr suffered a major lost, humanity lost a comparable amount in exchange (Note: the blame for the Foefire event depends on which race you side with).

This demonstrates that your point of is without merit and has no basis in lore.

You have been spouting a completely unbased assumption that Humanity would magically get the dwarven tech secrets and become the major engineering powerhouse while the Charr have NOTHING. Note, there is NOTHING that suggests the heroes went past their respective campaigns. Gwen went back to being an offier of the Vanguard, Pyre to his people same with Vekk and maybe Jora. Odgen likely went south to help guide the remaining dwarves who were not turned to stone.

Totally unbiased instead of being pro-human.

Ascalon was not going to survive. The Charr could’ve sat back and let them starve to death once food ran out (and the food was not that easy to find post searing, or water for that matter). Kryta was rebuilding.

Hell, the amount of healing Ascalon has had is the surprising part, not the fact Ascalon died. Your points have not received backing that convinces me (or apparently others) that it is lore supported.

I believe my last few posts in this Arc is entirely supported by available Lore – which is particularly then bye the way. Since the Arenanet goal was and still is to white-wash GW(1) as it regards to Human Ascalon.

Gwen was never a standard trained soldier in the Ascalonian Army. Her life experience as a captive of the Charr as a teen and her service record as a resistance fighter serving with the Ebon Vanguard and then going though epic quests through Ascalon, Cantha, Elona and back – had taught her that the war will go well after her human life span.

And despite or even because of her happiness she found with Keiran Thackeray, she like any soldier with similar life experiences and living in times like hers knew that plans needed to be set in motion, for the years to come.

But all this was ignored by Arenanet. So was Vekk and Ogden for the most part. Both as I’ve said before would have agreed with their friend’s Gwen’s world view. That the threat that Great Destroyer and Abbadon posed are not isolated one off occurances.
That if Tyria is to survive it needed every advantage.

This advantage includes the Deldrimor Legacy. And she has able assistance in the form of her friends (Vekk, Ogden) and Kryta. This again was ignored too. Seriously how could Vekk and Ogden not see the value in the Deldrimor Legacy????

Did Arenanet forget that our player-character met the pair as they were about to deploy an explosive device to kill an Asura Gate? And did they also forget that they were part of the team that lived and fought through the events of “Eye of the North”????

And that means after going though it all, like their comrade-in-arms Gwen and Keiran, they too would see the value of insureing their personal legacies.

Which would necessarily mean passing on the Deldrimor Legacy to the next generation. And at the time that meant Salma’s Kryta (Since the Asurans have their own, the Deldrimor Dwarves were now stone based – undead, and the Norn still held the Shiverpeaks with their Totem Animal spirits and the fiercesome power of their were-forms). So to say that my view points are not firmly support by the Lore? Really?

Sartharina.3542:

Not Anti-human and Pro-Charr. Just not Pro-Human at the Expense of Everything Else. Humans have to fight for what they want to have, just like everyone else. Even then, they’re still one of the strongest and most populous races in Tyria. They’ve just been pared back to everyone else’s level for now. There’s no “entitling” at all. If anything, the entitlement is for humans believing they are owed and entitled to land they have proven incapable of holding. Your own argument is that non-humans are not entitled to claim any land they hold or have held in Tyria because they are not humans.

My views have never been Pro-Human at the expense of other race if the passing of the last 200 years between the events of the two games was reasonably balanced and fair. For the most part it has been, with one major exception. Human vs. Charr.

In the case between the two it is the humans that have lost all the ground, lost all the land. The only time the Charr suffered a major lost, humanity lost a comparable amount in exchange (Note: the blame for the Foefire event depends on which race you side with).

This demonstrates that your point of is without merit and has no basis in lore.

It seems that most forum contributors are anti-human and pro-charr. Since many have argued that ultimately the humans of Tyria should be greatful for what they still have as per the events of the current game – GW2.

Since by natural law these said contributors claim that humanity is not entitled to any land they hold or had held in Tyria since they were invaders/outsiders.

I doubt that this is the intention of the writers or the intention of the IP owners. However they have effectively allowed said contributors to claim that all non-humans are entitled to claim all lands that humanity once held just for the sake of telling a better story.

In its re-writing of Tyrian history Arenanet have started the process of writing humanity out of Tyria in time for GW3 unless major re-balancing occurs.

Kalavier.1097:

Nicholas S Lin.6187:

Actual we know that they took the land from no prior race. Since before humanity no race has claimed the land as per my prescribed definition. All tests must be in evidenced.

A peoples that claim the land as their must show evidence that not only have they actively use the land they MUST pass the test of showing that they have “developed” the land. As well as all tests that form the definition!

The “development” test is proven by means of permanent structures consistent with on-going permanent settlement. There must also be signs of cultivation of the land for the production of food capable of feeding said settlement(s). Clearly there was no evidence of a peoples that pass this test to any reasonable level.

And as for being able to “willing and able to hold the land via force of arms”? There was no evidence that humanity face armed resistance when they claimed Ascalon. So this test was also not met.

Thus as already stated Humanity claim on Ascalon was legitimate and legal.

This new race of creatures was none other than us humans, and in no time we began to take over. Cities bloomed across the continent. Walls were erected, and weapons forged. Those things that we humans lacked, we simply built. We didn’t need tough hides nor rending claws when we could make metal armor and sharpened spears. We discovered fire, wrote books of our own, passed knowledge to one another through song and verse. Soon humans had everything we required, and it was then that we began to prey upon the other creatures. We hunted animals for sport, chased the druids from the jungle, and took up residence in lands that did not belong to us. We became the masters of this world. We took all of the privilege and none of the responsibility.

Actually, we EXPLICITLY know they have taken lands from other races. Charr and Centaurs to name two groups we know about. Centaurs were pushed from Kryta and Charr from Ascalon.

Also, your statements sound like the Native Americans (who IIRC, correct me if wrong) didn’t have permanent structures. So did they have no claim to the land then?

ALSO, there is no evidence of any sorts of how hard a time human did or did not have driving the Charr from Ascalon. We just have the founding date of the nation. So in response to your second to last statement, there is also no evidence the humans had a hard time pushing them north.

Just like the claim the settlers had on the land over the Native Americans was ‘legal’ or ‘legitimate’. They disregarded everybody else but themselves. I’m not painting Ascalon or humanity as villains, just they viewed the Charr as beasts, and it came back and literally bit them in the kitten .

edit: Actually, the quote line can explicitly be taken as they literally drove other races from their homelands (hence lands that did not belong to us).

This accusation that Humans were an Imperialist race of peoples that took lands from others is at best a misrepresentation of history and in reality is completely without basis in truth. Since this very accusation can be levelled at any successful race!

The Dwarves did it to the Dredge. The Charr themselves pushed other races out of lands themselves but since they are not human no record or details are given. But we do know that they are an aggressive, successful and adaptive race of sentient beings.

So to exclusively claim that only Humanity can be legitimately be accused of being historical “Imperialist” is obviously a view that is biased in the extreme!

One could take the view that the text you quoted was written by a Charr sympathiser and or a disgruntled being living in the margins of society and is deeply bitter towards it as a result.

Dustfinger.9510:

Nicholas S Lin.6187:

Dustfinger.9510:

It’s clear from this objection and many others before it that your views are very anti-humanity, and clearly bias in favour of their enemies – in this case the Charr. You see a “double standard” when there is no evidence of it.

The definition of the legitimate and thus legal claim of a piece of Land as one’s Homeland is: The race of peoples after witnessing no actual or reasonable evidence of prior claim to the land, claiming it for it self and from that day forth actively use and develop the land as its owner, whilst being willing and able to hold said land via force of arms.

This definition can be applied to any other piece of land in Tyria. In the case of Ascalon prior to the events of the first game it was clear that it was humanity that held Ascalon as their Homeland – as per the definition stated.

We know humanity took it from someone else. As per your definition, humanities claim is invalidated due to the fact that someone else being on the land is a reasonable evidence of prior claim. But if we can justify it being okay for humanity then that same justification can be applied elsewhere.

Actual we know that they took the land from no prior race. Since before humanity no race has claimed the land as per my prescribed definition. All tests must be in evidenced.

A peoples that claim the land as their must show evidence that not only have they actively use the land they MUST pass the test of showing that they have “developed” the land. As well as all tests that form the definition!

The “development” test is proven by means of permanent structures consistent with on-going permanent settlement. There must also be signs of cultivation of the land for the production of food capable of feeding said settlement(s). Clearly there was no evidence of a peoples that pass this test to any reasonable level.

And as for being able to “willing and able to hold the land via force of arms”? There was no evidence that humanity face armed resistance when they claimed Ascalon. So this test was also not met.

Thus as already stated Humanity claim on Ascalon was legitimate and legal.