Guild Wars 2

There are f2p games of roughly the same quality as GW2 that just got fresh updates. And the non-paying customers there are treated just as the veterans are treated here. There are plenty other options beside begging this publisher for common sense or throwing everyone who disagrees at Blizzard or Square Enix. Biggest sharks are most dangerous, hm?! Better to just be slightly annoyed when bitten by a mosquito

Alphard.6529:

If you really think this, please answer my question here: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/hot/Stop-Calling-HoT-an-expansion/page/2#post5172920

I’m not outraged.

Also, I’ve payed for GW1 and GW2. And I still didn’t rage. I also bought ME1 and ME2… Not the smallest outburst of rage. Same goes for Fallout, NWN and so on.

But you know what the difference was with all of them?! No one tried to sell me the lie that GW2 will be an expansion to GW1, or that ME2 requires ME1 to play.

Catching a sweet deal, like getting a bundle of Fallout 1 to Vegas for the price of F3 is one thing. Catching a “sweet deal” advertised by Anet for the past 4 months (“HoT will need this hard discounted GW2 base”) is another.

Come out and come clear: “GW2 needed a major revamping and as much as we appreciate your support throughout these years (the hell they do!), it’ll have to be relaunched in order to support the plans we have for the future expansion of the post-awakening Tyria story”. Sadly, they’d have to actually include a lot more content or promise more free content (nvm that, not with the current trust crysis they’re going through).

I for one, would pay $50 for a refreshed bug free, balanced, logical (mechanics wise) GW2, with meaningful stories (not the rushed one, riddled with sterile placeholder cutscenes), that only adds 1 extra class and opens the whole mainland of Tyria west of LA.

I won’t swallow their lie about the expansion, nor am I going to accept half of the former Maguuma Jungle as the only bonus content to this new base game. Replacing a few lines of Trahearne’s changes little (the cutscenes themeselves are beyond senile and dull). Adding the Halls should’ve been a duty, not a bonus. Same goes for balancing skills and mopping up bugs (the latter is still probably at “we’re looking into it” phase anyway).

All in all, same game with very little extra content, twice, falsely advertised.
Not an expansion, a rework.
They’re not happy to not be payed twice for delivering what they’ve promised once.

Alphard.6529:

This is the only thing newer players can reasonably be upset about. Not veterans, not conspiracy theorists who think they’re paying for the base game twice.

Newer players yes.
Veterans should be upset for being told they’ll get an expansion where it’s quite obvious this is not the case. They’ve been lied to or deceived, whichever word hurts you less… ’cause they are paying for the base game twice. Simply because it turns out HoT is the base game. PR and marketing kitten up led to this uprising. Devs and their bosses have built the hype about the expansion only to shoot a new game at people – in terms of mechanics and packaging. Keep the whole old story, with reworked content here and there and add a little extra (including the amazing skill balances-ish and maybe the bug fixes).

And since people love to compare apples and oranges, look no further than FFXIV. They reworked their product but didn’t deliver the “Realm Reborn” as Expansion, ‘cause no one would’ve swallowed that lie. However the ones responsible did make sure to compensate the loyal customers there. Did NC?!

Alphard.6529:

Some players may feel they are paying for the base game a second time, but that’s simply not true, as Anet have confirmed. Maybe you think they’re lying. This makes no sense. What makes sense is giving the base game for free to new players, which is exactly what they’ve done.

Aside from taking ANet’s word as proof for what you’re saying (especially since ANet’s change of mind over their own FAQ is one of the problems), the sense making seems to be functioning quite strange for you, and here’s why:
- a player buys the game 35 days ago (let’s not get into the very recent recording of ANet’s refusing to do what they promised to do, which is sort out the accounts of people purchasing the game less than 30 days ago). Regardless if it was because of HoT or not, now (s)he’ll have to buy it again, because there can be only one GW2 version.
- a player buys the game today, but what do you know?! GW2 is no more and what (s)he gets for similar amount of money is the new GW2 – which ANet and some ppl love to call an expansion.

So for the person who purchased the game not long ago – seeing how MMO’s tend to keep you playing more than a month, hm? – there’s no harm done?! It makes sense to fork out $85+ to $50+ for the same game within such a short time frame?!

Also, please, show me the base game. And explain how it’s free? Does it come with a 2nd code? Does it come with a separate installer? If you can figure out how is the base game “extra” to HoT, you can then try to expain the “free” part. But I think you’ll fail at this first step.

And it does, Wolfeng. IF you accept that HoT is a new game and all you get as “veteran” is your wealth ans stats transferred to it. You buy HoT, you start with everything you worked for over the last 3 years in a new environments. This also justifies the no free slots. And also the added value for the veterans, by allowing them to keep everything from the previous game (which is no longer viable and available on its own).

But in this scenario, ANet held a marathon of lies and deceit. And while I wouldn’t see a problem with HoT as a new game, building up on the knowledge and elements from GW2, you don’t support a company you don’t trust or with the record Anet has made for me. They didn’t bother to fix their old game (GW2, not GW1) because this day was coming, with a fresh start in HoT. They did bother to get more cash via game shop ludicrous offers and policy to finance this “Guild Wars 2: A Realm Reborn” project. It worked, HoT will land on the shelves, no matter how disgruntled the veterans are.

Keep in mind that you didn’t ask for anything when moving from GW1 to GW2. Their HoM incentive was a bonus (which also ended in failure), to both people riding the hype trait to GW2 but not playing GW1 and to the dedicated players of the game.

This – starting on with a new game – is the only thing to align everything they’ve said and done. It’s disgusting, repulsive, but – if they return to their roots – does still offer them a chance to clean their honor with the newcommers.

Dondarrion.2748:

You may argue its size; but it’s an expansion.

Now stop it with this stupid thread.

You needed two posts in a row to make such a smart and strong statement?) Not to mention the arguments you bring to the table are, certainly, irrefutable proof of the truth pouring out your every word.

While at it, why don’t you go on and buy the core product from the company?! What?! It’s not being sold anymore?! Awww… so then, HoT is an expansion to what precisely? I see…

Oh well, at least the core mechanics of the game will remain the same, riiigh… hm?! they won’t?! so that means without the expansion I won’t be able to enjoy the game no more?! What?!!! And the free content won’t be available for me if I don’t buy HoT?!

Oh… I see… Guess this product then, expanding on something that no longer exists, really is special. Not to mention confining and maybe a tad falsely advertized, but certainly an expansion… It expands one’s consciousness at how greedy, rude and ignorant a publisher can be and at how easy to fool some people are!

Sylax.6190:

Let me give you another example on upset #2. Imaging you bought a car 3 year ago at full price. You’ve enjoyed driving it and even gave the company more money by purchasing services such as changing oil at dealers. Without you and all the buyers that bought the card, the dealer/company would have closed down long ago. Now 3 years later, a new car is coming out. It is based on the old car design, they’ve upgraded the engine so that it is faster, more fuel efficient, and plenty of new features such as standard backup camera. The price for the new car is around the same price that you’ve paid for the old car 3 years ago, but new buyers will basically get your car plus additional features for the same price. On the other hand, you as an old customer can either buy the new car as a whole, which is built upon your old car, or not buy it at all and not get the new features. In this situation, I don’t think anyone one will go up to the dealer and say something like “hey, I want the upgraded engine, can you only sell me the engine at a reduced price?” or “I bought a car 3 years ago from you, can you sell me the new car minus the current cost of my old car?” . Nobody will do that because it doesn’t make any sense. You’ve already got the enjoyment of the price you paid, you got the extra services by paying more money. So dealers don’t owe you anything when new things come out. They might give you some incentive into buying the new stuff by offering a small discount, but they may not and you can’t force them.

^ That’s precisely the case! it’s not extra features added to the 3 years old model, it’s a new car. GW2 will close doors on the day HoT will launch. As simple as that.

Frustrating? yes. Feeling like being lied to the face?! yes. Was the $50 GW2 a good purchase?! Maybe, maybe not. From here onward, it’s a different set of answers that people should ask themselves:

• Am I happy with how Anet handled bugs and game balance in GW2?
• Am I happy with their PR and marketing policy in the 3 years leading to HoT?

If you can answer “yes” to those two, then HoT will most certainly prove another 3 years worth of fun for another $50. If you have 2nd thoughts, feeling a decrease in the company’s values and standards compared with the shift between GW1 and GW2, maybe it’s better to not rush to the wallet. You’ll more than certainly see any problem with HoT as another slap over the eyes from the devs/publisher.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

See, and this is exactly what makes existing players feel that something is shady. Especially since the expansion happens to be the price of a full game. This has nothing to do with entitlement.

+1
While the core game is no longer available, just offered “for free” to people not having it.
Maybe…. maybe there’s no longer a core game? Maybe HoT is the name of the game?!

You know that behavior when a kid pops a window the baseball bat and then goes silent when parents ask him if he did that?!

The parents know what the kid did. The kid also knows he kitten ed but hopes that if he’ll play saint and keep quite no one will blame him and maybe parents will forget.

I’m less interested in explanantions. They kept twisting their tongues to make the words sound true, but it kinda ended up in failure.

Actions speak louder, and their actions so far aren’t doing them any good either.

• Refusing to reimburse the players who purchased the game within the last month (while stating they want to);
• Offering to reimburse people who bought the recent HoT ****load only by terminating their accounts… Wasn’t HoT coming with a free GW2 core product? Why removing the key for HoT would shut down the original purchase? Unless, Highlander style – there could’ve been only one! And HoT took over GW2 – hence no longer being anything added to the game, but The Game itself…

So why demand words, when their own actions speak louder?! You people getting HoT are actually repurchasing GW2 with 9 classes and a few extra maps (not that much, largely compareable with GW1’s initial release). And it won’t be a bad thing! Anet can deliver quality entertainment… but what if the scheme will repeat itself again, and come next expansion, there’ll be again only one, thus having everyone pay for the game again?!

I opted out on taking that risk. Either ANet grows a pair and puts the middle finger up NC’s nose and not ours (CD Projekt could be a good example to follow maybe?). Or it doesn’t.

Explanations are superfluous…

The release date of GW2 should’ve been 23rd of June 2015. With constant beta access for anyone buying the game between it’s pre-order announcement and the release date. Wait! It was!

Orpheal.8263:

DarkSyze.8627:

(from a player post)

Here is what a expansion is:

This analogy forgets one important thing:

Guild Wars 2: Subscription Free
FF 14: Pay every Month 15 Dollar/Euro, regardless if you played the game in the month , or not

So over a year : Guild Wars 2 = 0€/$, FF14 over a Year = 180€/$

This analogy forgets one important thing:

Guild Wars 2: F2P system, but 1.5 times purchase required.

GW2 Beta (aka GW2): $50+
GW2 Final (aka GW2:HoT): $50+
same ingame economy as Ritft/Tera/Etc

So cost over time, Rift/Tera/etc: = $0, GW2 = $100+

There’s virtually no point in comparing the business model like that. With HoT NC, through Anet, are lying through their teeth. The business model of GW2 was identical to Rift and similar games out there. Huge pressure on game shop to improve QoL.

Might be worth remembering that NC kittened up another title for the EU, Aion, by ping-pong’ing between f2p and subbed, having players actually screwed over.

ANet is love and life and dreams and rainbows, sure. But they – from my opinion – desperately need a backbone so they can protect the fans they pretend so much to care about against such abuses. Which they don’t have, nor do they seem to care about now, ‘cause they’re famous. GW1 and its community placed them on a pedestal so high that reality begins to get extremely distorted.

The GW2’s core is being revamped with HoT, so people who purchased any vesion of the original beta will now feel like having a “Trial Version” of the product. Incomplete class development, barred off from any content being delivered to GW2:HoT, all in all, being denied the experience they’ve been promised when buying the GW2:Beta as the final product.

There is no mmo I’ve played – or even offline game for that matter – that delivers this kind of poop.

• DLCs are fun but not game breaking (you can enjoy the whole ME2 without meeting Kasumi),
• Expansions are available but not affecting the playability of the core game (new class, more skills, more instances, more exclusive skins – NOT new mechanics that drip into the core, making its own invalid or incomplete).
• Revamps are also delivered (see FFXIV as an example), but with a lot of bonifications to the playerbase (they had f2p while the game was being reworked and bonuses for sticking with SE afterwards)… Arenanet sorry! NC Soft doesn’t compensate any of the veterans supporting it while being still a WiP, but even worse, it also expects all of them to pay for the finished product again.
  The new players could – if we think of Anet’s team and dedication to GW1 – fork out the $100 for the Ultimate, as it has a good chance to be a stunning product. However, if we look at how the leadership treated the playerbase, I’d say Anet doesn’t have a say in any of this kittenstorm and that more of these pricky episodes will be… revealed in the years to come.

I only payed $20 for GW2:Beta last autumn. It always felt like an unfinished product, with good potential. I’ve got my money’s worth during these 8 months. My ~20k gems purchases were all made using the game currency, but that still means someone made them available, by forking out to NC Soft. I’m sorry I did it.

Character expansions that should not have been needed (8 classes – 8 slots), inventory bags and bank tabs too limited for a game someone payed for were all sticks in the eye, to get more dough. From a game still in development!
And the willing beta testers paying for the help they offered in fine-tunning the LW system and game mechanics! <trollface>

The hard copies of HoT will hit the shelves “when it’s ready”. So it can’t qualify as DLC either.

Galleron Kurn.7490:

If it wasn’t an expansion, then it would be something completely different that doesn’t include any material from the core game (like Factions or Nightfall from GW1). In this case, it does.

Nightfall and Factions had material from the core game. The mechanics and old classes with new skins.

HoT is getting much more closer to that category. Being a standalone that exands the universe of the core game. However since it expands it by a very small margin, it can’t be a standalone.

However, with the core game no longer shipping on its own, HoT is not an expansion.

So what is it then?! How about the finished core game, which was 3 more years in the making after hitting the shelves?! So maybe just stop thinking of them in terms of GW2 and HoT?! Fuse them a lil’ and, to prevent “HoT” from becoming irrelevant once the Kralkatorik hunt starts, just call it “Guild Wars 2: As it Should’ve Been from the Start”?

PS: Changing the way you level up and earn abilities and so on, doesn’t add to existing game stuff, it replaces it. Hence – new game.

@ OP. Heart of Thorns has nothing to do with being an expansion, if the core game has been withdrawn from their store. HoT became, with this bold move, the core game.

How do you feel when you buy a car that has no handbrake or windows and then the company tells you “hey! we’ve got those windows and the handbrake ready for your car, but you know what?! to get them, you’ll have to buy this new car! Our technical support will then disassemble it and mount the elements on your old one. Nope, can’t buy just those, sorry – company policy!” That’s what they ended up doing.

And at this point anything that could support ANet’s behavior based on their pristine GW1 reputation is sinking in an ocean of quicksand.

• bugs didn’t get fixed. Game felt like still in its beta with those crawling in every section of the game;
• game mechanics (like the conditions mess) weren’t fixed. The game balance issue can’t even be discussed if the skills and their effects were still not final.
• content missing and/or removed. GHs, GvG, story chapter.
• The roleplaying part of the story felt, to me, more like a placeholder (with basically no cutscenes and an extremely dry voice acting and gestures of those talking heads)

Almost all these aspects are bound to be fixed with the prep’s and launch of HoT. Parts of these fixes will be delivered to the players not owning HoT, but from that point onward, the free LS content will require them to buy GW2 again (keep in mind, there will be no GW2 no more, as they show, just GW2:HoT, with one code for everything).

So support Anet?! What?! After the community did that while playing a beta game for 3 years?!
Of course, there’s little to do from their part – it’s like hating the workers in the car factory (in the example above) for the marketing decisions of selling the product without windows. NC dictated how this should be played and they complied. Either they didn’t have the financial independence to fight abusive decisions, or lacked the backbone. I’m pretty sure if they would’ve been on their own with this, they’d have had a different approach to both marketing and quality of GW2 and a lot of support from the GW1 community – not to mention making that community even bigger along the way instead of thinner.

Run Away PLZ.7639:

Does it expand upon the core game? Yes

Afaik, you can no longer buy the standalone from their store, only the HoT. That kinda rules out the “expansion” version, or the DLC. As long as there’s no more a GW2 to attach to, the HoT “bundle” IS the game.

There may even be some facts that can support this statement:

• the skills and mechanics have been brought into the desired shape and effect (kinda creating the feeling GW2 had a very long – 3 years – of betas, financially supported by the players).
• The mechanics for LW and general gameplay have been finally fine-tuned and completed
• The “bundle” doesn’t come with the elements most of the addons/expansions come with, but rather offers – based on the price payed – either f2p experience of a full game (at the minimum price of $50) or a normal, full experience with a fistful of bling-blings added at the max price.
• Elements of the game that were missing have been added finally (GHs)

With these in mind, I’m kinda thinking ANet picked the lesser evil by just lying about the requirement to have the original game for the “expansion” over stating that they’ve actually reached that stage where “GW2 is finally ready”. They kept saying it’ll hit the shelves when it’s ready, but it would seem NC wanted it there faster…

Vicariuz.1605:

When people sound like this I often imagine it’s some random anet dev calling for help on his or her own “secret” account trying to help the community understand why they are going to be mad.

The kitten up on the marketing and PR sections is obvious. The veteran’s rage is quite justified too. (Plenty of reasons to choose from, between supporting the buggy game and scarce info on what they’re supposed to toss $100 on). And ANet’s silence just adds more salt on the wound. (I for one stopped logging after I saw that ludicrous offer yesterday).

On the other hand, both sides of this forum “conflict” are tempted to blow things out of proportions, for the sake of supporting their claims. Sadly, there are only 2 sides, the disgruntled players and the ANet fans. The one missing from the party was the same who tried to cover the whole mess up and now probably hoping the poopstorm that started will die out on its own and they can safe sweep the trash under the rug. Only there’s already a lil mountain forming out there…

You actually have the answer – sort of. HoT is no longer an expansion, it’s the new, revamped game (yes, with all the bugs and bruises from the last 3 years of payed-for beta testing). Kinda like FFXIV, if you want.

So what HoT brings to the table is allowing you to play through all the (possible) free content they’ll be adding in the LW. Basically, people aren’t paying strictly for the HoT bit, but also for all that’ll follow after. Lots of mini rocks and halfarsed outfits too!

People mentioning skills and mechanics balance are slightly delussional, since things like this were/should be done by default if they proved to be faulty (you don’t pay for a car 2 times simply because the manufacturer realises – after 3 years – that the gear stick wasn’t functioning properly).

Someone said it best somewhere. HoT is not an expansion. Come HoT, we’ll just have GW 2.5. It would be wiser to imagine it as a completely new game (expect a fair amount of bugs and awkward mechanics too!) and let the good ol’ Guild Wars 2 rest.

That’s a very nice discussion you’re having right there… with yourself… about a yt post of a person endorsed by ANet/NC. Mhm. Have fun at it and oh! If you do get to some misunderstanding during this great discussion, please don’t punch yourselves in the face…

evoRobot.4019:

You underestimate the effort it takes to coordinate a games release. There is so much going on, and with E3 that just passed one day ago.. They updated this FAQ as soon as possible and addressed the forums and those who had concerns about already purchasing the game.

People like you won’t let it go and are making so many excuses. If you don’t like the direction of the game / company, then why are you still here? Because your negativity won’t change anything it only makes it worse with this dirty propaganda. You have a choice here, either take it or leave it.

That’s bad decisions example at least, if not the malintent people seem to be thinking about. Not from ANet, neither from the Community Management. But from their greedy higher-ups.

Also, 2 things:

1. The vets who actually supported the game through the first 3 years of GW2, with a management blantantly ignoring major issues over spamming the gemstore with poop are just being laughed in the face with the way HoT was offered yesterday. “Hey! you bought all that random junk already, so keep at it!”

1. Even more important, the company’s silence and trying to shift focus on more bling-blings isn’t supporting any of the current statements made by people like you in their favor. It was an obvious kitten up and they’re now walking on eggs, ’cause another kitten could be fatal.

I believe ANet has good – no! great – potential, but it’s being lashed in some very shaddy actions by a company who doesn’t care much about its customers, just about their potentially fat wallets. I’m sad to see the guys who gave GW1 bow down to them to this extent.

HoT incoming vid was released at the end of the free LWS2. Since then, all the GW2 purchases should be refunded. And the company should’ve already come with that statement. The fact that they’re just manifesting their “desire to fix the problem” is either political bs, or another proof that what ANet would do isn’t actually what it is allowed to do.

So all in all, ninja-modifying the FAQ on the day of the presale launch is a major slap in the face. To their honesty. And a huge stain on their reputation. Never in their 10 years of nurturing the prequel had they displayed such behavior…

We are not. It’s just that the product itself is dry and sold at too steep a price for the current state of the mmo market, with – yes – some subbed games but also f2p ones similar in quality and content with this game that’s now reaching the $100 cap.

Limited inventory and characters (fewer than the classes available) are features of a f2p game. Not giving a character slot with HoT is both mean (9 classes – 5 slots) and very not ANet-ish.

New players can get the whole thing for $40 for all I care. GW2 core will still give them a feint feeling of playing a beta with all the bugs still there. Veterans were rewarded their loyalty through LWS1 and 2 (before that became too good to be free anymore). Since less loyal people like myself don’t have any chance at the LWS1 content and the 2nd season had a price tag too.

It’s, as such, less of an issue of how the old people who survived the brutal years of ANet experimenting on your patience. But really the issue of the way they treat everyone like f2p clients, while waving their “no sub fee” banner… That’s confusing. Condi removal needed.

I’m imagining the community will get split by HoT. It’s getting that from simply running different gear/builds. And it will make sense too. Back in the days it was nearly impossible to run certain builds without NF/EotN skills…
That’ll be another element pushing the people still in doubt to one of the edges: drop out or into the Maguuma Jungle.

Thing is, after a whole day of forum boiling, ANet presence was only felt through the thread merges and a couple of either inappropriate answer (“Someone rang?”) or clarifications (that tended to add lil more gasoline on the fire).

I still think this is out of ANet’s hands, but if they did care about the quality of their game and reputation, they could debate such aspects with the higher ups. Price is steep when there’s little known about the game. Game itself was buggy beyond belief and still not clean (or balanced for that matter), so no big incentives to caugh up more cash. And no… Paying $50 for 3 more years of beta testing the game isn’t quite the offer no one can refuse.

SkiTz.4590:

Remember, a lot of the new features and stuff is being implented freely to the base game anyways […]

People blindly bending over to anet is whats wrong here…If customers think they are being treated unfairly, they have the right to voice their opinion..

That’s the part that “justifies” all ANet’s defenders and even ANet to ignore the veterans because not all the games offer that much free content. But!
First, it felt like a teaser. The moment they got the right “formula” for the LWS, they placed a price tag on it. Also…

There are people caught between the veterans and the new players. Some that payed for LWS2, some that never got a taste of beating Scarlett’s baddies which still pay almost twice the price for very little extra.

Exaggerrating on any side is bad. ANet with the lies and slacking with balancing/fixing the game. ANet fans for inflating the proportions of a shabby expansion to biblical sizes and going buttocks kissing for mini rocks and mini rytlocks. And the ignored veterans for being ignored after supporting ANet so they can caugh dumb minis and NOT fix the game for 3 years…

I’m comparing prices and content at release time, for both GW1 and GW2. GW2 needed (and will still need) a lot of skill balancing. In GW1 they were constantly doing it, especially in the pvp area, to give all a fair chance (and they had a bazillion skills to balance all the time). So specializations and skill balance isn’t really “bonus”. We still had free content in GW1 too (and btw! It was available even for ppl coming late in the game… I could only read about LWS1, and LWS2 was not free for people arriving late).

I’m also comparing the time and effort spent by ANet in GW1 to offer high quality, bug-free world. Not the logic-free, land-of-the-bugs which is Tyria 250 years later.

I’m also comparing the quality of the lore and lore related store stuff. Mini rock?! Not to mention same skins look better in GW1 than in GW2, both Lich and balthy weapons.

Prices were the same, content was exceedingly better. And you know… No one asked ANet back then for char slots. They gave them so the people can experience the new classes. And if memory serves, you didn’t have fewer char slots than classes available.

Quality on a down slope, riding on hype trains and the glory of days past.

sharkswithlazers.7632:

2 dozen hours of fun for 100$ is like 4$ an hour. I’m sure you could do the beach and stuff for cheaper, but when you look at games in terms of time played, it becomes a really efficient way to spend your money.

Both FF XIII episodes are available in my country for ~$18. That’s at least 50 hours of gaming, with a lot less bugs than ANet could be kitten d to fix inbetween shooting out zergs of minis.

Also, no matter what goes in terms of price comparison, ANet fails hard at

• content of their addons/exps compared to their own history/producs
• the marketing politics on the topic, with the secrecy and lately the deceit

It’s not only the price. It’s the mentality behind these marketing decisions too. Small playable content (compared with their own previous releases). Buggy game (compared with their own previous release). Greed fueled packaging (the fact that not even the core game had enough slots for all classes should’ve hinted at their new business model). Also, after so many disappointments, starting from the promises they were making while still developing GW2 to the lies they even slapped on their FaQ… It’s a bit too much to trust anything they say/promise regarding the value of the product they’re selling.

I’m not old veteran. I play GW2 since Halloween. Payed for parts of the LWS2, missed LWS1 and everything it provided, from gear upgrades to skins and such. I didn’t even get to experience the whole GW2 story because one chapter went AWOL, I did get to experience the plethora of bugs and the constant mini spamming on store while players ask for bug fixes and game balances.

Value you say?! There was only one time in my life I payed to support a game still in its beta stages – Mount and Blade. But it wasn’t the price NC asks of its clients. Twice.

CureForLiving.5360:

I certainly hope you aren’t implying anything here, since it would be an Appeal to Tradition. It’s a logical fallacy where one argues ‘well its always been that way so…’. I’m not saying that ANet should or shouldn’t stick with what they did previously, I’m just pointing out that saying what they did do is in no way an argument or evidence for what they will or should do.

Obviously, it is not a solid argument. It is, however, the quality of their products that lead me to buy the new instalment of GW and I’m pretty sure I’m not the only one.
As such, I’d say they do have (had) a strong reputation which is getting trampled into the dust by this shaddy and deceiving new marketing strategy.

They went famous for high quality gaming experience and rich content in every single of the packs they’ve come out with. I do believe they should (‘ve) stick to that.
For me, now, they’re famous for dropping a silly mini or an outfit while blatantly ignoring or postponing fixing broken – or poorly made – elements their game.

Lastly, people defending the current HoT situation are doing precisely that “it’s common thing that all addons are at same price…” (completely disregarding content).
It’s like saying “it doesn’t matter what the hamburger’s made of, as long as it’s sold as a hamburger, ’cause everyone knows the hamburger price is $xx”.

jadaniel.4910:

What would Dave Ramsey say?

I admit having to google that name. I’m not that familiar neither with the person nor with in-depth financial analysis.

I do think of this mess from different points of view:

1. If your life-long favorite car manufacturer would start selling you higher price vehicles that break every 200 km, you’d probably revisit the other options. (The difference in game quality between GW1 and GW2 is huge and doesn’t really favor the latter, if you ignore the visuals)
2. if any merchant would sell you a product which proves to be different than advertised, you’d probably sue the bugger for misleading advertisment (certainly doing it in US, I think – not sure about the rest of the world)
3. lastly, one thinks perceives value different based on one’s income. For some, the latest mini on gem store is a must have, for others is a waste of cash best saved for something more important. It’s easier to fork out $50 or $100 when such a sum is rougly equal to what you’d spend on a night out (seeing how all you drink ends in a less mystic toilet).

For some people, forking out $100 may not be much. For others, it could mean half a month’s wage. For some people used with WoW or other greedy companies, this may seem normal. For others, used with ANet’s old business (with literally tons of content/addon and quality) this is kittening frustrating.

Do you know that GW1 used to have just as many char slots as it had classes? Or that each addon on came with roughly the same play time worth of content (either full continent or a plethora of instances?) and that the only exp that didn’t feature new classes was actually cheaper at launch than the rest of its predecessors?

Good for you being able to afford it without actually caring what you’re tossing the money on, and how much value you’re getting in return. Your kind of behavior encourages these types of cheats from the publishers and the continued decrease in overall game quality in favor of game bling-blings.

I’m wondering: if GW2 didn’t have gold to gems conversion… That would mean everything spent in gemstore would’ve come out of our wallets. Would then many of the current playerbase supported this game?!

Am asking this because in GW1 we were buying skins not because they were awesome (which they were, not the shabby looking gw2’s – btw! what’s with the perma rag-doll skins on charr classes?), but to show support to an awesome team. In GW2, the hunger for $$$ is so huge that everything’s being over-evaluated and hyper-encouraged (by generating so much clutter in the inventory that the need to expand it becomes dire).
Also, if memory serves, GW1 had as many character slots as it had classes. GW2 kinda pushed you to the gemstore if you wanted to experience all the options in a game you’ve payed for…

Batelle.1680:

MMOs are different because they have to front load their content without scaring off potential customers/subscribers with a massive price tag for the main game. So they sell the game for the same price as a single player game and count on subscriptions or cash shops to eventually cover the costs of development and to make their initial investment of content profitable. Basically everyone who bought GW2 got one hell of a deal on the original game considering the amount of content it has and the lack of subscription fee.

As for the cost of the HoT- even if it took less time to develop the content for it and even though it won’t have as much content as the base game, it should not be devalued by that metric alone. The base game was a gamble for Anet and I’m guessing that they want HoT to pay for itself (as a unit of content they feel is comparable to an average video game) so that they can continue doing free content updates and being supported by the gem store.

Based on this assumption, everything post- and HoT related should come at a 0 gems price in store. Because, as you’ve said, the game will pay for itself. Which is not the case:

• new class – buy new char slot – for $10 in gemstore or for $25 in the averagely (to use a mild word) bundle above core “expansion”.
• more loot – buy new bank/inventory slots
• new skins and minis you either buy then at “hawt” price in gemstore 10$ for a mini rock? 20$ for some random outfits?! or buy them with the upgraded versions of the HoT release.

No matter how you turn it, the theory doesn’t stand. The community supports the developers for a good product, or the publisher tries anything to milk the comunity. GW1 is a good example for the former, while GW2 for the latter.

GW1 had continents released with each “pack” which all added to the value of existing installation (char slots, bank slots, skills), but had everything of their own too: all classes with new looks and skills PLUS two new classes, own instances, own stories, own skins. GW:EotN didn’t bring new classes, just new skills for all classes, 18 (eighteen) instances and new skins and a large enough map area – at least half the size of Cantha.

GW2: HoT is “unfinished business” from LWS2. It brings class balances which were direly needed and the bosses didn’t want the devs to actually work on them for free (remains to be seen how much balance, though). It adds one more profession, but no bonus whatsoever for existing accounts (booooo!!). From what they’ve said, no instances, just more zergy content. Some bling-blings. On top of that they bring what they promised long time ago not to do (talking about more tiers of armor). And the cherry on top, the deceiving, treacherous way of doing it, by lying to our face. MMO Manifesto all over again.

Lastly, I can’t help but wonder if the mechanics and npcs have so much problem with the current terrain and skills, how smooth will the glinding part be? Will we hit invisble pixels and fall like rocks? Get new and improved versions of “No valid path to target” and “Target too close”? Make fresh lists of bugs that will take 3 more years to get even an answer for?!
At its current state, GW2 feels still in a beta phase. Unresolved bugs, missing story chapters, slapped together pseudo-cutscenes with as much “feelings” and emotions in the characters as a brick can generate. Poorly created in-game animations… Basically everything that could’ve cut down on production costs.

And if you look at the competition, you start to wonder: What’s the difference between paying $15/month for sub in a visually stunning, immersive mmo and paying the same price for a gemstore driven GW2? ‘Cause that’s what it was… And when finally LW reached maturity and a quality worthy of ANet’s reputation, they just had to go and charge for it. So basically, that makes me think that everything from launch to HoT was a community funded open beta.

Big thumb down!

Pretty sure all of us got at least 20 stacks of Confusion seeing the core HoT offer naked. Using the “Purchase” skill surely promised to lead to a downed state. Mentally, at least.

On a side note, to all of them people comparing the costs here with WoW. This isn’t WoW. Everything else costs though, just like in a f2p game which IS f2p, whereas GW2 is not. It’s a lot better and wiser to compare GW with GW, not with f2ps or with subbed games. Although there are sturdy examples of both other types who have a more swift bug-fixing behavior and respectful and customer friendly approach than what GW2 currently has.

What ANet can offer on its own will does. Everything else is probably constrained by a “Shut up, lie or get fired” warning from the higher ups. Bug fixing, game balancing, content tunning all require time which the bosses don’t want to support and pay for. So they have to make more [Mini Rock]s.

Sylv.6514:

Because the higher ups would fire them if they replied with something that kittened everyone off even more. Probably waiting for a response from their superiors. Also it is after midnight where Anet is.

Their superiors will probably say in a sweet EA/Ubi voice “not our kitten problem! just milk that money faster! fasteeeeer!”.

I have worked in companies that treated clients bad and I felt like a cow-pile when realizing it. It didn’t change the fact that the customers got scammed. I did quit ’cause I could show up in front of the loyal customers no more.

Anet did something largely similar. From the high quality game and services of GW1, to the hype-train build-up with their MMO Manifesto, to… This!

But we should’ve seen it coming. “We don’t want our players to grind to get to the fun stuff: I swung a sword! I swung a sword again! Hehey! I swung it again!” led to skills having that very kitten description. While at the beginning it was a fun fact, connecting it to the promises they made, it slowly turned into a reminder of the promises they actually broke.

However, I don’t think ANet are the ones to toss rocks at for this pile of poop. Someone higher up the food chain is looking to make the buck no matter the risks. And if somehow this marketing decission will lead to an uprise that will drag ANet into mud, there are plenty other mmo developers willing to kiss a buttock for a second of fame.

Aion is another NC Soft product put in the care of a greedy EU publisher who couldn’t care less about quality and community. Game gets more and more broken. Focus on cash milking is getting ever stronger. So I think we should consider looking for another target to toss all the boulders and bile at. It’s not ANet.

Lastly, it’s the way economy works, I think. Planned obsolence. People used with forking out cash on subbed games won’t feel that bad about this (see all the WoW examples given over the dozen threads here). People new to the game will need some time till they start hitting the walls of problems this game has. So these two categories will probably have the focus of Anet’s boss. Oblivious to problems and given a slightly greener pastures.

The few people who remember or look for what ANet used to represent that are still here will probably follow the rest who already left during the first massive wave of disappointments.

So can we have a honest statement from NC maybe?! Along the “we don’t give a kitten about you” line…

Factions and Nightfall added new classes and new char slots with them at no extra cost and bank tabs too to people already owning Prophecies. That was a nice gesture towards the loyal player base.

Funny thing is HoT turned from an expansion to a standalone version with the twist in the plot Anet threw out. Meaning that while the new players get the base game ‘for free’, the existing player base should get something tossed in for free too (char slot, bank expansion, inventory expansion, gems… Not the middle finger waved in front of their eyes. That’s bad marketing from my point of view.

It’s also bad marketing when fixing bugs and balance in the game for the players is being a secondary goal to stacking up more trash in the gemstore. Because that means for me the bugs in the orginal game will be buried under the new ones which, in turn, will be covered up with more [Mini Rock] clones. So I’m understanding that I’ll be paying for something that has a 50-50 chance of functioning as intended and there’s a really high chance of Anet just revising their statements (like they did with HoT being expansion) if the pressure will become too big on adressing confusing mechanics or other unpleasant aspects.

All companies, under the loving eyes of the big publishers (like EA, hm?) are shifting their strategies towards milking their customers dry. ME3 was a very good example of such a policy. Current marketing strategies applied in GW2 are also good example. So while pricing-wise, the $50 is not uncommon, the attitude towards the loyal community is disastrous.

So Anet is putting up an expansion that requires the game we have already purchased, but they make us buying it again.

In addition, the usual extra char slot for the new class (like Factions and Nightfall had) is coming at extra cost.

In addition the core features that Anet had its player based used with (like real class balance, bug free environment, fun instances and captivating stories) are still AWOL.

But heeeey! Such tempting and lore connected [Mini Rock] is up for grabs.

And the attitude, condescending at best… The way to go, Anet!

Precisely. Remove all classes their perks, not just thieves’. Then it’ll be fair.
There are counters to stealth (blasting them out of their SR). Counters to mobility (ground targeted skills and imobs used a bit more wiser) and quite a lot of classes have a counter for BS too.
As for the SS, that continues to be a double edged sword, with “No valid” still poping at the worst times. So there’s somethin’ extra from the devs to support the part of the playerbase complaining about mobility.

It’s impossible, Tao!)
In high end game, I believe the team builds are made so that they complement each other best.
In normal gameplay, the whining on thieves’ mobility and stealth downright ignores the fact that those two mechanics are the class’ alternative to defensive skills and mechanics and try to compensate for the low hp.

I’ve read in some other thread that it’s not fair that thieves can do both, hurt a lot and run a lot. On same line of thought, you’d think it’s not fair that guards can hurt a lot and heal a lot or that wars can do the former while not even getting a scratch thanks to their stances. And so on.

And the nerf suggestions are ranging from funny to ludicrous.
I recently made a thread to qq about conditions threat for thieves, especially with the inifinte stacks inc. I’ve learned in roughly two pages of conversation that life sucks when you’re bleeding to death, but it’s better if you don’t get hit. So I accepted that fact. Condi pressure and thieves will never get along well.

Wondering if the playerbase can accept the thieves’ mobility as survival mechanic and move along. Guess they won’t. Not when they keep coming with more and more “broken” or “op” elements in the class’ mechanics.

Hah! I remember one mad player in hotjoin calling a thief noob then adding “Roll condi build and I’ll smash you!”. Even using that word for me is a disgrace to the person using it, not to mention the expectation that the enemy would load the build you’re most confortable with)

The neverending complains about thieves and their stealth (now with the bonus about initiative).

How come that no onter class has everyone thinking they might be op? mesmers 4v1’ing everything with both strong condi and power setups, stealth and quite a healthy dose of survivability skills. Necros with hordes of minions, DS, condi pressure and removal and again, good survivability utilities. Not to mention wars and guards who sometimes feel like fighting a castle’s wall, not a person. Or them eles with 20 skills to spam, a quite a lot of mobility? 1.5k range snipers with annoying pets and high survivability and engis with again spammable skills and insane survivability.

They don’t need nerf then?

Thieves have no blocks, no stability, no invulnerability, low hp pool and global cd on weapon skills via initiative. Except the high tier players, the rest don’t watch every skill/buff/debuff in the middle of a team fight. It’s already exhausting being there and paying attention to deadly conditions, back threats, downed team mates and so on.

On top of that, stealth eats up initiative (6 to 9, depening on weapons) or puts a life-saving utility on a 40 sec cd. That’s like putting 5 of your any other class’s skills on cooldown for 3 seconds of stealth. And it doesn’t matter if the cd is even 5 seconds. You can’t use your weapons’ skills properly after that.

Looking forward to other aspects, engis have 3 seconds of blocks on shield, invulnerability, stealth and so on. So in a 1v1 vs an engi thieves would have to wait roughly how long for the window of opportunity to land a backstab?! Not to mention positioning for a hit is also important. All classes can safely hit from wherever (well, almost – only class that can fight from the home instance being the ranger).

I wouldn’t mind such a nerf though, as the OP dreams of. If!

• Thieves could disarm on backstab (general cd on all weapon skills).
• Mesmers would get global cooldown on their phantasms and shatters each time a shatter doesn’t land.
• Engis would get a get 2 seconds of imobilized status each time they summon their turrets.
• Eles would be unable to swap attunements on a missed/blocked attack
• Necros would be unable to enter DS if their hp is below 50%. Or be unable to leave it.
• Guards would have channeled meditations (like mesmer mantras).

Stupid request? Well, I think it’s fair and square. If any stealth or failed stealth action demands punishment on thief, other classes should get a taste of such suggestions…

Batelle.1680:

Except teams will always have an advantage, especially if they’ve worked together before and go into the map with a game plan, one that has been honed over countless matches.

Either Anet should separate solo queue from team queue, or they should stop pretending that it’s “an even playing field for everyone!” because it’s absolutely not.

I partly agree with you. It’s better to be with someone you know in unraked, especially if in voice. I’m new enough to pvp to not venture into ranked but I’ve had my share of hotjoin and I’m kinda done with it (unless I’m just trying new stuff which could render me more useless than I sometimes am to any team I end up with).

Also, I consider it to be utterly boring to jump unraked when you’re obviously beyond that level. One match per week should be enough to remind you that you don’t wanna be there. But some people just need to brush their egos that way (pretty much like some feel really stronk when smashing a mosquito on the window).

Lastly, pvp in GW2 was never an even playing field. Neither queue wise nor class wise. And if Anet pretends to be otherwise… I want some of the stuff they’re smoking! Must be really good.

I can understand full team going unraked being a problem, and not even then. New team, new players in the same guild, new classes.. every of these is a good enough reason to go unraked as a team. Just as trying out pvp is best done in hotjoin where, for the most part, it shouldn’t matter who wins.
Also, 5 man team, 2 of them working toward common goals. That makes your 5 man team still thinking it’s just everyone for him/herself?! It’s team play. It’s less the duo’s “fault” for smacking your behinds as it’s your own team’s fault for headless chicken’ing there or everywhere.

Admitedly, toys are a poor choice for this type of pvp (there’s plenty pve content in WvW). But other than that, I actually don’t see a problem. There are teams that are good yes, and they have very little reason for going unraked, unless they met some much better teams in ranked and want to blow off some steam – making the unraked match incredibly difficult. But these are actually rare ocassions and I’d call them opportunities to improve one’s play-style, to get closer to how ranked it.

Remove the hammer, trebs and guild lords from the maps. Done. Rest relies on personal skill and ability to play as a team member, not a yolo artist.

DarkSyze.8627:

Thief is Ninja?

Final Fantays XIV: Ninja
http://ffxiv.consolegameswiki.com/wiki/Ninja

Final Fantasy XI: Ninja
http://ffxiclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Ninja

Final Fantasy XI: Thief
http://ffxiclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Thief

And your point is?! Can you link the “Ninja” class from GW2 wiki please? or the Thief class from GW1. Wait. You can’t. Ninja/sin/thief have things in common across the board. Stealth actions and burst damage. While your post is baffling, it means pretty much nothing. If GW2 would have Sin and Ninja as specializations of the thief, it’d probably help putting things in perspective. But it doesn’t.

But then again, we must live in harmony with nature… and the trolls under the bridge.
On topic, asking for class characteristics removal because it annoys people or because some elitists want an easier life in pvp is worse than asking the devs to remove the crippling attack from hyenas. But hey! When that person asked for it, all the feedback was going the same way “l2p so you can live with it, hyena’s cripples are okay”

There’s a small chance of people abandoning your group when you advertise it too. I had that happen twice, with “Newbies – Lvl 2/3 FotM” as text. People joined, party wiped once and they left.
You’d think that the “elites” of this game aren’t all reading the chat either. And the general attitude leans towards selfishness. GW1 had one of the best communities and one would think that moved over to GW2. But ye, times are changing and common sense is in short supply.
To avoid such situations, we (me and my gf) ended up looking for and trying only instances that can be duo-ed or 3somed (when another friend pops online). It makes half the options unavailable, the runs a lot longer, but I’d rather try and fail for 1 hour than get the generic rage-quitter every now and then (getting enough of them in pvp).

Most of the big guilds are friendly and there’s always someone doing some instance. Problem there is with the rep %, especially if you have your own guild a care about it.

As such, probably the best way would be still to advertise for a “Newbie lfg for x instance”, even if you did watch vids and aren’t all that clueless about it. Insulting and blocking certainly won’t get you friendlier groups for sure. You can poke them without being rude if they were in the wrong and just move on. GW it’s still a game -designed to have fun – and if you get to the point you’re swearing a lot, you’re taking it too serious ^x^

This thread got as far – thiefhate wise – as to request nerfing their class mechanics and replacing grandmaster traits with useless ones.
I for one started a trait here about improving condition removal for thieves, since as it was (and will no longer be), the only “reliable” way to do it was stealth builds, and even so it felt weak in a conditions heavy environment. What I did learn and tend to agree to is that thieves do have condition evasion (like someone said, you don’t get conditions if the enemy can’t hit you).
There are, it seems people who main other classes that also lean towards “improve your gameplay” option instead of “nerf everyone else, please”.
I’m quite far from being a good thief, but I’ve been taught the hard way that it’s most of the time my lack of focus or poor skills and timing that are my most vicious enemies in any situation in pvx, not mesmers, necros, the lack of condi removal or the flimsy vitality. Could apply to other people too, I think.

My opinion regarding condition damage mitigating on thief comes from practicing vs my gf playing condi mesmer with a lot of stealths. I was even more new to the profession, but it’s enough to say that in 4 hours of pvp I could down her a couple of times only.
I agree to some of the skills being really strong (Headshot is a deliciously spammable cc, a lot more frustrating I guess than Point Blank Shot or Rapid Fire). I do believe though that the current balance for the thieves’ skills tend to take into consideration the less high-end players too. Make the profession too demanding and you can safely remove it from character creation, ’cause almost no one will bother.

There are two things that would sort things out. Redesigning the sigils (maybe splitting them for pve/pvp) and splitting the skills – gw1 style – for pvp too. It’s quite ridiculous to have the same skills used in 5v5 pvp where everyone’s hp is under 30k and in 5v5 pve where mobs’ health skyrockets. And while gw1 had roughly equal sized hp pools for both players and mobs, they still used split skills for balance purpose.
The classes’ nerfs needed in pvp (not only thieves’) would ruin the experience in pve quite drastically…

Meta specs. I have an idea! Remove all other possible gear/traits/skills combos from the game. And adjust the mechanics around the “meta” surviving builds! Maybe, just maybe, take into consideration that not all people follow the meta, not all people go for the high-end ranked pvp or high-end dungeon runs. And as such, the requested balances can really ruin most of the other possible builds.

Lastly, there was a guy requesting hyena’s cripple skill to be removed ’cause it was annoying him. Most of the posts seem like that. Regarding all classes.

Mrbig.8019:

The only thing capable to kill a thief is another thief. This at high level play.

If you"next poster" disagree then you are so below that level that u can’t even imagine what a capable thief can do.

If so, don’t even reply to me, i won’t bother replying again.

Cele needs to be nerfed hard.

Thief needs to be nerfed harder ( especially air/fire and runes).

And before they become that good, all thieves just need to be trampled by everyone, right?! ’Cause who cares about anything not “high-end”. Certainly not the elitists.

Also, might worth pointing out that thieves aren’t “fire/ele and runes” they’re a class, not gear upgrades.

Rickster.8752:

Vulnerable to CC – this is the opposite. Thieves are very strong to cc and also very very strong against immobalise with withdraw and ports.

Assuming you get 1 cc every other fight, yes. The wide aoe cripple from rangers, coupled with pulls from guards, cripples and immob from necros and warriors… There’s a lot of cc’ing that the thief can’t handle all the time. Needless to add they are quite short on stability skills.

Rickster.8752:

Vulnerable to conditions – I presume you are unaware of the meta thief spec but it is essentially immune to conditions. It can even 1v1 a condition engineer with ease now. The stealth remvoes the conditions and they run 2 stealth utilities. In addition shadowstep is condition removal.

I’m totally unware of the meta. I do know that stealth removes 1 (one, not 10) conditions every 3 seconds and that mesmers and necros can put more than 3 in 1 second.
I’m also aware that Infiltrator’s skill on sword is a condi removal that eats up half the ini bar for 1 condition and that SS is removing conditions at the cost of stunbreaks and mobility. Your point is?!

Rickster.8752:

Not spammable damage – thieves core design with no cds means they can spam bursts at any time they want to.

No cds are well balanced by initiative. Thieves can “spam” any skill while their ini lasts. Which is roughly 4 HS’s or one stealth chain on S/P and 1 leap (which btw, is a rush, not a leap). Or 2 pistol whips, 4 Clusters… and that’s about it. Eles can spam 20 skills without caring much about cooldowns, and engineers can yolo grenades all the time. If not spammable, most skills on all classes have apropriate cooldowns. In general, it doesn’t feel like a gain, but more like a constraint.
Thieves can burst at any time they want if they don’t spam. They can’t spam. HS spammers aren’t being thought too much of, iirc.
I respect your opinion, but from my point of view (played almost all classes, to feel the difference), thieves are actually needing better both condition removal and damage. They’re however, not breaking the game and are not in a need of a nerf. If anything, the meta should consider their existence as possible and adjust to the cap/decaps and finishers (btw! staying put in a group fight so you can survive to finish of the running enemies is kinda depressing. Makes you feel like the cavalry that arrives at the end of the battle ^x^)
What DOES need nerfing is the proc chance of the sigils though. Fire, Air, etc.

What I was trying to say there, Tyresias is that every class has its own strengths and weaknesses. Thieves have mobility and good – but not really spammable – damage, while being extremely vulnerable to cc’s and conditions and with a quite fragile body (in terms of hp).
You would need to address those issues, giving them a much better survival in exchange for lowering mobility. However in that scenario, all classes would have to have the skills and perks that make them special too. Throwing them all in a blender and just give them generic names with not that much difference in playstyle.

Rangers have a lot of tools at their disposal, but most people complain about them being able to camp outside the general range and spam from there quite high damage and annoying skills. It’s not all they do and it’s arguably not the best or most fun way to play ranger
Necros have double hp bars, basically, good condi removal, good damage, both in dots and power builds and a devastating elite skill.
We could go on like this forever, pointing out strengths in all classes and argue a lot of wether they’re balanced or not. Fact is they are NOT. 1v1 or solo play in general isn’t all that supported by GW2’s environment. From instance mechanics to class complementing in pvp, it’s pretty much all about team play and cooperation.

A well played mesmer can make short work of a thief through condition pressure and stealth (Stealth! on a class that has so many other options available! QxQ). A well played mesmer with a well played thief can make a very deadly couple though, hm?!

The moment Anet will say that they’re looking into giving all the classes equal odds in 1v1, then we can start debating about one class being OP. Until then, I think it’s more important to actually learn to play better in a team.

Also, Tyresias. People tend to complain more about the things that are out of their grasp. Were the other players be given the mobility and stealth too, they’ll be more than happy! Can you imagine a necro with them? or a guardian? Can you also imagine a thief with a guardian’s survivability? or with the mesmer’s clones? or being able to spam 20 skills like the ele?
Thieves are pests and are designed to be treated as such. Lot of annoyance, very small chance of dying of old age or natural causes ^x^

On a side note, I’ve seen the fixing for the condition builds that is gonna arrive with HoT. That’s arguably a death sentence for this particular class. But that doesn’t matter much, I guess. It’s not about how easy a thief can die, but how fast he/she can down you and steal your cap point. That spells hypocrisy for me

I’d say he’s right! Thieves are OP! Lowest HP pool in the game and shabby condi removal, quite a hard choice between survivability and burst overall, no invulnerability, stability, summons or decent condi damage. No spammable skills due to initiative restrictions, but yes! OP! Remove the stealth and the half-broken shadowsteps, pl0x! And while at it, remove their weapons too! Give them a broom!

It’s on the same note with “Ranger OP! 1500 Rapid Shot happy wefs!” and “Necro OP! Remove Death Shroud and Lich Form pl0x!”. How about remove the attunements from eles too?! Make each weapon only give 1 att or 2. And give mesmers only 1 clone, remove the virtues and Elite Focus from guardians and maybe the stances from warriors. You might as well, take the grenades and elixirs away from engineers! Hell! Even better! Give every class a broom as the only weapon!

Edit: Nevermind the broom! Make the Carved Bone Spoon a weapon! And as skills Eat Cereals, and Head Smack, both spammable, 100 range for the attack skill. The “Eat Cereals” will heal for 500 hp, the “Head Smack” will damage for 500 hp. Fair and square!

Hotjoins are okay, people coming and going, chasing points, etc.
But after that, having someone leave because of any possible reason is ruining the game experience for everyone else.
So please, can we get the good ol’ “Dishonorable” debuff for quitters? We had problems with it in GW1 too, yes, getting the debuff because of random disconnects, but it’s a risk I’d gladly take over getting 2-3 matches in a row in 4-5 setup because some random dude or dudette didn’t like the map, the team setup or the team colour…

I think the discussion here was more centered on mobs skipping and the incentives the dungeons are offering to revisit them. Tactics can change (even if mostly it’s a “Zerk or gtfo” approach). People who don’t like the zerk, the rush (btw, not everyone liked speed clears in GW1 either) or the loot – all have voiced their opinions here. And a few came too to say “I’m so pro, you all are squatters”, but it’s again part of the system: even if you don’t have something nice to say, you have to say something…
No reason to bother with instances, with all the bugs all over the place, from mechanics to mobs. No incentive to go there with the average loot being worse than a chest farm. And not many nice people to make the run fun lately, ’cause of the elitism suffering from full stacks of skyrocketing.

Rising Dusk.2408:

Someone earlier in this thread referenced GW1 elite runs as an example of good design, yet apparently they missed the speed clears of Urgoz and The Deep which performed just as much if not far more skipping than GW2 dungeons use. Back then you skipped absolutely everything except the one mob that, when killed, opened the door.

Krolisia wasn’t supporting the non-skipping I think. But rather pointing out the uselessness of enforcing it, with the current rewards system.

Krolisia.6102:

I was speed clearing dungeons in GW 1 so im just used with killing only what’s needed to progress. […] Give me chance to drop minis, more mats like dust or smth what u can’t get from salvaging and it would alrdy give me reason to kill trash. The only reason to kill trash mobs was UW in GW 1.