Guild Wars 2

Greymelken.1892:

When I was 8 I boycotted Christmas because my mommy wouldnt let me open my presents early. She tried to lay that ‘its not about recieving, its about giving crap’ on me, and its about appreciating the sacrifices some dude made for me, but I wasnt having it.

I did the same thing every year untl I was 13, then my mommy let me open my presents in november.

Then when Christmas came I was bored, and all I had to look forward to was more grinding for karma in church

I ruined my own christman day because I made unreasonable demands of my Mommy.

You’d be better off comparing this to complaining about your little brother getting all your old toys without having to wait for xmas. But it would still be bad. ‘Cause it doesn’t really fit.

And your “unreasonable demands” is such a subjective qualification that it can’t and shouldn’t be used when it comes to the way people perceive value or normality.

You know, there are cops out there that shoot innocent people because they had a “resonable belief” they could be not so innocent.

Back to you boycotting your own Christmas and ruining your fun though. If each time you opened a gift box from your mother there would be a googly eyes rock inside, you’d probably refuse to clean your room only to receive a nice gift from her again, which probably at christmas time would be at least 2 googly eyes rocks.

Iason Evan.3806:

So you’re saying their communication issues stretch back to pre-release?

It doesn’t actually. What they want to do and what their bosses want them to do are two different things, given how many complaints there were since launch about everything and how they didn’t have the time to do much other than fixing the amount of clutter in the Gem Store…

I’m pretty sure they would’ve delayed the release a bit more if it was up to them, fine tune it as the problems would start to arise past-launch and so on.

As such, I think what they said in their manifesto was what they wanted to deliver but were obstructed in doing so by the higher-ups. I hope it’s that. Trying really hard to keep ANet’s image clean, given their past product and behavior.

One thing you mentioned was enough: Hotjoins. The common sense is below the Mohorovicic Discontinuity there. A few more months and it’ll fuse with the Earth’s core. You should expect nothing in hotjoins. coherent team play, honor, etc. It’s a good place to learn the mechanics of your pvp build, rotations, etc, but better to just keep the chat on combat maybe. There’s a lot more useful input on that page

you deserve a special like button for that text, Breaking Bad It’s extemely true, funny and also incredibly sad…

We’re only 3 here, got all hyped about HoT, then Pre-purchase offer came. Slap in the face from ANet (just for condoning NC’s greed to that extent). 2 of us opted out instantaneously, 3rd followed shortly.

You don’t do magic tricks with the official information. You don’t sell apples as oranges. And you don’t talk fish when the forum’s in an uproar for 7+ days. So, as far as ANet and their tradition of caring about their fans is nowhere to be felt, I’m not forking over a dime to NC. That which just happened is abusing customer’s trust and naivity: “Hey! if you spend cash on our mini rocks with game still buggy, take this reworked GW2 and imagine it’s an expansion…”

Did not, I think. EotN came in with 18 instances that were actually a lot of fun to play. And the content was enjoyed and abused for many years to come.
And I believe that people who purchased FFXIV didn’t have to buy it again after it got reworked. And that they’ve were compensated for their purchase during the rework by not having to pay the sub. However, FFXIV did come with a pwetty new name afterwards… Guessing that adding “Heart of Thorns” to the game name doesn’t justify the $50 either then?!

Then they have to come up with an expansion that’s worth the “expansion” title. Not reworked base game with a pretty cherry on top (the Revenant) that’s just too high to reach it without adding more to the cost of the “expansion”.

And here you have more issues: just adding more maps that give same incentives to play – generic champ boxes and won’t cut it. Afaik, no instances of any kind and the dymanic events we’ve experienced in Maguuma Wastes if kept in the next areas will just add grievance to players – with half the map afk’ing for Sandstorm or Breach or just waiting for CFs.

Judging by what’s been offered with it, HoT is not an expansion. At all. It’s GW2 core game reworked with very little extra content (some of it unaccessible unless there’s $10 worth of gems added to the cost).

I think I’ll stop this though. It feels kinda pointless at this point to debate wether HoT is worth it or not or what Anet could and should do. One week has passed since the uprising began and the complete silence from the devs/publisher is enough. Time will tell if you people got the money’s worth of the presale or not…

In GW1 you were asked for all serials attached to your account. It might be the same here.

Changeling Dash.4782:

But if they will tell this NOW – much less people will pre-purchase HotT. “Would be funny if not sad” situation.

Yup. Less people would get kinda scammed indeed. Ppl who already purchased will be a bit mad for having payed half the price just for beta access. But this particular kittenstorm will pass and with some honest statements (not sneaky PR policies) there will be a boost in good-will and trust levels. As such, I don’t know what’s better: Getting a good financial boost now with this approach or have a larger, healthy player base that will support the company in the years to come?!

Test.8734:

P2W? Isn’t GW2 already the most P2W it could be? You can already use gems to buy the most powerful weapons in the game.

Both GW games were and are not P2W ones. They are P2S – “pay to slack”.
GW2 would’ve been P2W if the Ascended gear would’ve been a Gem Store product.

Ohoni.6057:

NO.

That is not what happened.

What happened is that they priced the expansion at $50, that’s $50 WITHOUT the base game, and then they decided to throw in the base game for free, because why not? So now the base HoT pack costs $50, plus the cost of the base game ($0), resulting in a total price of $50.

I think not. I think they just called HoT an expansion (only possible way to do it) but they actually turned it into the base game. Please keep in mind there’s no base game available for purchase on their site

So it’s not that HoT as base game isn’t worth its money. It is!!! But not for people already having the old GW2. For them, HoT should have a lower price, because 70% (if not more) of the product has already been payed for and experienced.

Sure, this caused a kittenstorm, but it would’ve been a lot bigger probably if they’d have come clean and say HoT will be the base game and everyone has to buy it at full cost. The GW2 community supported Anet through the first 3 years, some out of nostalgia, some because they arrived here from experiencing even worse game models, but such a move would’ve probably pushed away a lot more customers.

So the solution, as things are now, would be: call it for what it is, so this whole “is the expansion’s content worth it?” can end. But! Either move away from treating your customers like free players in a f2p game and add value to anyone who has already purchased GW2. Not 1 char slot, 2000 gems – thus giving them a 50% lower price. Or have the 50% discount applied on the real price.

The problem is, they can no longer do that without causing another kittenstorm. The vets buying the game in the past week will feel exactly the way the 2015’s new customers feel now. Scammed. Cheated.

As such, Anet can only apply this scheme the moment HoT goes live. Then, the extra 25$ vet players payed would be “justified” through their access to beta sessions (and the rest of the bling blings that should not become available later on to anyone else).

DarkSyze.8627:

Celtic Lady.3729:

DarkSyze.8627:

I just logged in to wvw and was instant killed by thief, engineer and elementalist. Yes 3 to 1: fastest instant kill i ever saw: so fast there was no downstate. Again. i refuse to buy and will not buy the expansion.

I’m missing the point, I guess. What does buying or not buying HoT have to do with this scenario?

The point to the scenario is: " We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them- No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it ".

Arena net created these problems and is aware of them. How can Arena net create a expansion to solve these problems using the same thinking and using the same level of consciousness that created them?

I am sure you hear this before: " New Year, Same Old Problems"

-That is all-

Did you play games like Rift or Aion or any other open world pvp?! Getting zerged there is a reality there. You’d even get zerged by high levels on a low level map, and they’d do that not for the fun of a good pvp clash, but just to troll you.
While a 3v1 kinda removes the “noble” reasons of pvp’ing, it’s not uncommon at all. Just as it is not uncommon for people to just slack, for example at Shatterer and ask “Pre done already?”, or to afk in Silverwastes till Breach.

Just join the zerg in WvW or make your own group before going in. If you prefer roaming, then you should take into account that ^ such situations are possible and probable. I see a lot of reasons to move away from GW2 in its current state, but getting zerged in WvW is certainly not one of them

B2P?! Buy the core game every 3 years?! ’Cause HoT is the new core game. Can they at least be frank about it and call it so, and not expansion, dlc, etc?

Also B2P with a strong F2P model. With huge limits on the account – char slots, inventory, bank. With huuuge focus on Gem Store.

So no. That’s a very bad hybrid: “Hey, this is b2p, so pay! However, we’ll still treat you like a free player”. What next?! They’ll decide that having the playerbase buy same product again later might not work, so they’ll just change the LW into a DLC? having ppl pay every 2 weeks a lil?! After the stunt they pulled with HoT, nothing’s suprizing.

TheReaper.5729:

Good post!

Current pricing is a NO GO for me just based on principle.

I suggest raising the price for new players to $60 (still a great deal for core game plus expansion).

Existing owners something for a standard game expansion price. I suggest $40 for:
- Expansion game
- 1 Character slot
- 2000 Gems

So if 4000 gems is roughly $50, you’d want: Expansion+$10+$25 at $40?
That’s pretty much the customer version of NC )

Test.8734:

That argument would make sense, if not for the fact that farming isn’t the main reason to play the game for everyone. Although apparently ArenaNet wish it were.

Well, hoarding of valuables is in our nature as humans, I guess. And so competition is buried even deeper in our animal roots. Hence the two reasons to play the mmos, other than using them as social hubs and places to live out some fantasy selves we’d wished we were. But mainly it’s competition and hoarding.

PvP doesn’t usually get much love and it needs lots of to always keep ppl busy, if not happy – balancing and fine tuning maps and mechanics (all of which didn’t make the top priority list for this game just yet).

As for PvE, we were running for the fastest clear in GW1 or marathoning instances for valuables, from armbraces to BDSes and VSes and so on. In other games, you’d do something similar for better gear too, not just rare skins. In GW2, and you can’t really say it isn’t so, the general metality is “better I just farm SW for the cash and buy off the TP”.

Now if people are rejoicing at mini rocks and happily commit themselves to reducing the whole game to gold and TP, it must mean either they opted for this instead of leaving the boat oooorrrr… it’s what they want and ANet would get another kittenstorm coming if they’d change this into something that actually has them visiting more places.

And the paradox hits like a train: “how many maps? boooo! too few!”. They don’t care about the numbers of maps, nor about the content all that much – I think. Unless it provides an even easier way of piling gold up fast. The discussions about the chests output/hour in SW I’ve caught one day in LA was disheartening… you’d think ANet just needs to bring more “Pacman” themed maps, with no mobs and a lot of chests – possibly already revealed and opened, and most people would already be happy imagining themselves kings dual-wielding Eternities.

It’s Anet’s fault for encouraging an economy focused completely on the TP/GS. It’s the player’s fault for tagging along. When your hand is all the way to the knee in the cookie jar, you can’t really say you don’t like them.

Which brings me back to the previous question: why worry about the content when it’s mostly irrelevant for most people?! I’d worry more about the system that powers this content and about the “This expansion will be the new core game” hint (which for me translates into “pay twice for the same product, ’cause the first time you did… well… it was still a work-in-progress”)

Let’s imagine HoT comes with 10 maps. Now, let’s pick 10 maps from GW2. And think about how much time any of the players – veterans or newbies – spend in any, and why?!

• Cursed Shore for the mats from the undead mobs and the easy to hoard champ boxes
• FGS for roughly same things, maybe replacing the heavy bags with a chance to drop some collection related weapons?
• DT for the geodes (be they for Mawdrey or Ambrite collection)
• SW for CFs and maybe Bioluminescence
• 5th to 10th map?!
  All the others map get attention during World Boss events and nothing else. So I’m guessing the numbers don’t count for kitten if the incentive to spend time there is missing. They did say they’ll rethink the rewards based on the place they take place. That could revitilize the all the lands of Tyria, by replacing the generic loot with something themed, and maybe by removing the f2p-ish limitation of doing the events 1/day/character

Certainly there are more dire issues here than the number of maps – one of them being the posibility that players are being sold a remake of GW2 as an expansion.

Yes it is, maddoctor. HoT ain’t a dlc/expansion/addon. Can’t be. 2-3 maps and 1 profession is a bit shabby.

But if those 2-3 maps complete the main continent of Tyria all the way down to Crystal Desert and Deldrimor Front, then you can actually say that map wise, we have a complete GW2 game. (Still missing Crystal Desert and the Fire Islands from Prophecies, but it’s okay, since all EotN areas are here).

On top of that, you get the GvG for the game called Guild Wars. All you need in pvp now is someone carefully watching what’s happening there and balancing skills all the time (yes! splitting them for pvp might be required)

Lastly, HoT comes with a new skills/traits system that the devs think to be a lot better, hence you get fresh out of the box game mechanics (the fix to conditions builds add to this too).

So what’s missing?! End game progression (and content) and some bling blings. They did mention some challenging group stuff (which hopefully won’t be as frustrating as trying to catch a map for TT), and the rest is there.

As a bonus, you get reworked story with improved cabbagehead and less boring Arah (don’t hold your breath on those though, since Trahearne is dull since his birth and there’s little that can prevent Zhaitan from taking that fatal shot to one of its tails).

All in all. It’s a complete game. And no, GW2 standalone is walking its green mile already and will be no more. As such, given all these modifications (remains to be seen if they’re improvements), would you buy the game again?!

Let’s try for a moment to ignore this whole expansion crazy.
Imagine GW2:HoT as the only product available.
You know what it containts: 5 races with 9 classes, half-branching story with the other half being dull as a monday at the office, dynamic events, bosses, instances, awesome (or not so) loot, crafting… all you know about GW2 plus all you know about HoT.

It sounds to me as a complete product, with a lot of content. Would anyone buy it for $50?! And 2nd question, would anyone that bought 80% of it over the past 3 years pay anoterh $50 for the “missing” 20%? Potential-wise, it’s a good investment, PR/Marketing-wise (not to mention the lack of mood to solve the game’s problems), it’s better to just get wasted one night and deal with the side effects for 1 extra day. It’s where all this boils down to for me.

Not in terms of dedication it isn’t. How many bugs you knew in GW1 to have survived for 3 years without adressing?! Game mechanics, pvp balance, etc. And they had a lot more to look at when balancing classes there than here.

In GW2 I ran all maps and did all events that weren’t bugged at least once, I think. GW2 had good start, but after 6 gifts of exploration, I’d say there’s little to reward doing any event or instance or heart. Everything lurks around that one thing GW1 was missing: TP.

I’d say that the major problem with GW2 for me is how Anet handled every other problem of the game after release. from mechanics, to bugs, to rewards. And looking at everything, they had only one reaction: “here! have this mini rock at the hot price of 350 gems!” (I do admit they always answered with the “Swing your sword…”. “we’re looking into it” before putting up more gem store clutter).

As such, one would think that GW1 was made by Anet, then NC kidnapped the whole team and keeps them in a basement tied up, while having politicians handle the GW2 using their name.

Vayne.8563:

Hey OP, I have a question for you. With all the great comparison work you’ve done, and all the comparing, how come you left out dynamic events which the game is centered around. For example Guild Wars Prophecies had 209 quests.

If you add up all the quests in all four Guild Wars 1 products, you’ll find it was less than the number of dynamic events than Guild Wars 2 launched with.

You also left out species and starter areas. Seems to me I can play five races in this game, but only play 1 race throughout all of Guild Wars 2.

I’ve played all 5 species in GW2. Made a total of 8 characters. Wouldn’t make any more ‘cause it just gets incredibly dull, especially if running through the “wonderful” story and especially near the climax, once you reach Trinity. Also, I’d say that 5 races don’t give that much replayability within GW2. New classes – sure, it’ll give you an insight as to how each functions. But the races… guess after you roll all of them once, you settle for one and that was it. In terms of variety, it could’ve been just quaggans with 5 different origins, colours, or voices.

Also, I hope you’re not talking about starter areas in GW2, to compare them with GW1 and I also hope you won’t start counting the amount of pixels each game had. The chart doesn’t containt the GW1 outposts. As for GW1’s starter areas, most are included, and maybe the only one worth mentioning would be in Prophecies, a microverse on its own – the Presearing.

As for quests and dynamic events… what can I say?! I never got to do them all in GW1. Guess there was so much else to do that doing all the “hearts” was really left out. On the other hand, in GW2, why do you do them?! certainly it’s not really the fun factor, since, for example, the pre’s for a WB are afk’ed by the whole map with a few exceptions. It may be because they’re less demanding than the dungeons. Or maybe because there’s karma to be gained, which could mean easy cash by abusing the toilet…

aspirine.6852:

gw1 also had way more events, every weekend there was a special. Cantha new year that didnt suck, dragon festival, and fun wintersday. Oh how good was the snowball fight in that

The events are also here. Can’t say I enjoyed Wintersday all that much, but Halloween was quite nice. Were it not for the latest addition to GW1’s event (that UW race), I would’ve even said better than GW1’s. Maybe the Dragon Festival (Festival of the Four Winds here maybe?) and GW2 bday will improve too, for whoever will be left to play this game. Also, there’s something special every weekend here too! If memory serves, last weekend we had the Mini Rock special moment ._.

There are people that have purchased GW2 more than once. Same goes for other games too. What HoT does is exactly that: having people rebuy GW2’s core which got assimilated in the HoT “expansion”. And as such, there’s only one problem:
If you’re trying to resell me the game, say so and let me think if I want to support you, don’t wrap it up in a nice “Dragon Box” HoT foil and call it “expansion”.

That, of course, applies to people who’ve been playing the game long enough. For everyone else who just purchased GW2 and can’t get a refund…well… probably the only viable option would be to deduct the cost of the GW2 from their pre-sale and upgrade their accounts (since they’re not refunding producs bought anywhere else other than their store).

All in all, the lack of transparency on the matter aligns well with their deceiving statements (and the FAQ isn’t their first kitten , but their MMO Manifesto)

uhohhotdog.3598:

You’re wrong. There is a core game. You can have it without HoT. Anyone that doesn’t buy HoT has the core game. They won’t have access to the new profession or new pve maps.

Could you be so kind as to link me a screenshot of their offer on GW2 standalone? Or you’re just talking about still being able to buy it off retailers, only to be unable to upgrade or get a refund like the OP mentioned?!

Vayne.8563:

Immediately after the manifesto was posted, there was a clarication. Colin is talking about events. Ree is talking about the personal story.

And precisely what would you be doing in the GW2’s events, if not swinging your sword (unless you don’t use a sword)?! The zerg approach with high focus on raw dps makes it kinda pointless to do anything else. Regarding the hearts, yes, you sometimes feed cows or dance for them.

The big difference is that now GW2 with its open world also has mobs with huge HP pools to accomodate the situations where there are 100 people swinging their swords at the same time (I know the map limit is higher, but some are always afk, hm?) As such, from the “use your skills wisely” we had in gw1, action shifted to “swing your sword again” in gw2.

As for the personal story… That stop with Tybalt closing the gates of Claw Island. I felt a lot better when Kormir stepped in and ninja’ed the glory than when Gravity defeated Zhaitan. GW2 is so void of emotions in both acting and cinematics that it makes it incredibly difficult to consider it a better approach.

Finally, let’s look at the reward system:

• Dungeons give nothing special – the generic champion box and a pathetic amount of tokens for each baddie you put down.
• Karka Queen is an extremely laggy zerg-a-lot fight that rewards generic bags
• Teq’s dragon boxes prove to be double-wrapped champion boxes
• TT’s Wurm Chests are also double-wrapped bags
• SW bosses drop the same bags you get from chests and DT’s same boxes you get in Orr or FGS.
  And all these boxes and bags have?!… random generic loot. How’s that for a better approach to events?! “I got a champion box! Hey! I got a champion box again! Hehey! I got another box! This is so fun!”

OnionXI.6735:

GW2’s PvE “endgame” is entirely about vanity and almost everything can be boiled down to the universal currency gold. Gold, by the way, is constantly being devalued.

That! MMOs tend to keep players working towards something – better gear, achievements, even vanity items.
GW2 has this better gear sorted: open the TP, buy gems, convert to gold, get your materials, done. Same tactic can apply to all vanity items. All that’s left are some achievements – some bugged (due to bugged content), some meaningless.

The incentive to play the game is: you’ll get some loot. It doesn’t matter if you’re doing instances, events, champ trains. Same loot can drop everywhere. So the rewards are not much of a reason to visit any other content that may be more challenging.

Now looking at similar business models, I’d say that GW2 doesn’t shine at all. Tera is rewarding the players running instances with dungeon specific loot in a shorter time-frame (a lot shorter if you consider getting your stuff from just running the instances in GW2). Aion, Rift offer also “phsyical” content bound to every instance (usually better, dungeon themed gear). We get tonics and the funny 3 tokens to help us get that 2000+ complete gear from an instance – much reward for facing the evil, corupt bosses and risking our lives there for the Queen, Tyria and the future generations.

Guild Wars 1 was offering it too! There’s very little excitement at the end of the dungeon to just get a generic amount of tokens (3 when repeating it) and maybe a tonic, since everything else you can also get by joining a champ train or a wb train. There’s a bigger feeling of accomplishment when the dungeon chest gives something that is related to the dungeon and of value. Like the DSR in UW, or the BDS and so on. And within GW2, different qualities of dungeon-themed gear (from trashy to ascended) would’ve been a better incentive to have people keep visiting (maybe with some very rare minis or skins that). And maybe something can be done with the generic champ boxes too…

Anyway, GW2 end-game is a pointless grind, ‘cause there’s absolutely no incentive to go this or that place. Wherever you go, you get same stuff. And the main reason to get all those champ boxes? Lodestones and T6 mats that don’t have too much of a logical drop. Anet hates farming too, not just grinding as they stated. However stacks over stacks of precious mats needed with no other way other than TP to get them reliably. Which either gets everyone farming champ boxes, or grinding for gold… meh…

Looking on your comparison again, I’ve remembered something: Nightfall had also 3 challenge missions and Factions had… 5 (Dragon’s Throat, I think and two for suxons an 2 for kurzpicks)?

Crise.9401:

… This free content is created…

Funny then, ‘cause this “free” content is neither free, nor available. LWS2 costs. LWS1 is part of the game’s history. Would you still say that GW2 has FotM if they remove it tomorrow, only because you have the fractal gear from that place?

What players can get from LWS1 is a few extra places to visit and a backpack, if they buy the recipe and sprockets/mining pick.

LWS2 is anything but free now too, hm?! Unless 2k gems don’t mean anything.

Balsa.3951:

But ur other solution means again buy core game and thats what nobody want.
Goldseller can be reported anet just need improve there ban system more

That isn’t my solution, it’s their goal. “There can be only one”. Everything hints at a GW2 reset. Reworked core, story, packaging, size of the new content. It’s just softer on the ears/eyes to call it something other than a reset.

Still, a Colin-o-tron or a mini swinging the sword all the time (and maybe a Rytlock/quagan plushie for the physical CE) could bring a smile on the vets. From there onward, they’ll just need to care more about the game than store and there will still be people playing GW2:HoT (and its addons) 10 years later, like it happens with GW1.

Can’t work. There are enough gold sellers already. Fuse HoT to GW2 core, fix character slots issue, call it a reset (not an expansion) and add a mini Colin swinging a sword as extra for the pre-purchase of the “GW2 – 3 Years Edition” game version.

maddoctor.2738:

webtoehobbit.4201:

The changes that happened pre Heart of Thorns is not what we are paying for in Heart of Thorns, adding that info would be irrelevant for this comparison.

In a way you do. A complete comparison of updates:

G1 + all expansions = 50+50+50+40

vs GW2 + all FREE content 50+50

Do that comparison so the price of what we got is clear

GW1 also had WiK, HotN and WoC which all 3 were permanent and free. You go there now, you get to do all that stuff.
GW2 had content that was a) removed, b) half-free. Neither of them is of much support for your statement. LW is not permanent, nor free. (Please note it’s “is” not “was”)
Free content is pretty much what GW1 also had, Easter/Wintersday/CNY/Dragon/Birthday and the small things inbetween.

One more thing, no one’s doubting Anet’s ability to deliver high quality content. Neither than they can do it without a price tag. This, again, seems to be falling in the same poophole.

Bad wording and bad marketing is what HoT is suffering from.
Let me try to explain: Factions, Nightfall and EotN didn’t change the mechanics, fabric, core – however you wanna call it – of the original GW1. They added content to the existing mechanics. HoT adds very little content. So little that it isn’t actually more than a DLC. But the changes it brings are drastic, deep and the foundation (from what Anet kept saying) for everything to come. Hence, they’ve remade the bone structure of GW2. Muscles and skin (the topography and all the props) are roughly the same (probably with the same buggy events too). Remember that even the story gets rewriten a bit. As such, it’s a remake, remaster, reset. Can’t compare it with any available means of adding to an existing game: too small for a stand-alone or expansion; too deeply altering the experience for a dlc, too similar with GW2 to be called new game.

As such, I’m wondering: If Anet would come tomorrow and say “Hey guys, HoT is actually a reset of GW2, designed so that it can accomodate new mechanics a more enjoyable leveling experience and an easier to balance and control skills and traits component. We’ve added an extra class to balance the armor types and the whole LWS3” would you react any better to this than to the feint of “exp+free core”?

Some things become obvious if you focus on them long enough, and from this point of view, I’d say that if that is the case, then maybe the wording and packaging were chosen to avoid an even bigger uprising. I’d probably support this move if they’d come clean about it though (and maybe fix the character slots hiccup).

Colin Johanson’s sword swinging is still the best illustration of things they didn’t want in their game) Until they added it as a skill description
Question is, what if we were too busy dancing for cows and zerging the bosses taking 10 minutes naps in Cursed to actually catch Anet come back to their Manifesto’s principles?! You think we missed that too?

Best way to put it! Sadly, people getting your point are largely the same people who already opted out on falling for the same speech again. It could be used though to remind ANet where they wanted to go and let them figure out if they’re anywhere near that place now.

@Just a flesh wound: The weapons were part of a Prophecies special package (kind of a GotY, if you want), same goes for the imp (I’m thinking everyone having the whole game got it) and same was applied to M.O.X. But hey, you played and you could give all that accurate info

Did you even play the game?!

GW1 had nothing to do with p2w concept.
GW2 has a lot more: buy gems with irl $, buy gold with gems, buy everything you need off the TP.

Unlocking pets in gw1 is another skin thing, since they didn’t have their own skills (save for the Brutal Mauling). Mercenaries would’ve been better than henchmen, not than heroes, please get your facts straight. Weapons were gifts and same goes for imp and M.O.X. (and pretty bad too – the weapons – unless used in Presearing). Again, get your facts straight. Skills and mods unlocked?! I certainly would need to get a lobotomy before paying to get something like that, but I guess laziness comes with a price tag. But hey! You forgot the mini Kuna, mini Varesh, the auras and special dances! Much pain to win. Such unfair. Wow.

Jongi.7612:

…But coming on the forums screaming that you should get something for playing for 3 years wont accomplish anything. It just makes people look childish like they are deserving of something because they played a game.

What if someone’s been playing for 5 months? Or 6? What if they had to pay for LWS2? What are you talking about, really?! No matter how hard you try to defend the concept, some customers will get their money’s worth of the game, some only half of that. Even more so since HoT is not an expansion, but a rework of GW2’s mechanics with a cherry on top. So veterans actually will pay twice for the same product. Only the new purchase has a more shiny wrapping foil.

Just a flesh wound.3589:

Guild Wars cash shops have always been iffy. Just look at what Guild Wars 1 sold. It was downright p2w.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Guild_Wars_In-Game_Store
1) an NPC to level and fight beside you until level 20
2) starter weapons better than what you start off with and better than what you’ll get for quite some time.
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Game_of_the_Year_Upgrade
3) unlocks all PvE skills without having to play the game
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Skill_Unlock_Pack
4) unlocks all PvP skills, weapons, armor, upgrades without having to earn then by doing actual PvP. You could step into PvP on your first time and be completely geared with access to every skill in the game with your opponents still in PvP starter gear and skills.
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/PvP_Access_Kit
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/PvP_Item_Unlock_Pack
5) the ability to turn your alt characters into heroes to play alongside you. You can gear them to the highest levels, chose the skills, direct their movements using flags, manually play their skills yourself.
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Mercenary_Hero_Slot
6) unlock all the ranger pets to access them in the Zaishen menagerie
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Pet_Unlock_Pack

Tell me this is better than what Guild Wars 2 sells. And they had the expansion based model people are asking for.

It is!

• You can unlock all your traits in GW2 with in-game currency, and there’s no skill to buy, basically – they’re glued to your class/weapon/race
• The mercenary heroes was just kitten, since you’ve had a horde of heroes that would do precisely the same thing;
• Starter weapons and the imp were loyalty gifts, level-gated and certainly not with the best stats one would want. Pretty handy though for Presearing characters…
  *The imp was rendered useless at lvl 20, not that you couldn’t get a full inventory of summoning stones inside the game, or a perma-summoning stone as of late.
• In GW2 you have already all pets and skills unlocked in pvp and all possible runes/sigils and gear available for free.
• Why would you really unlock any pve skills without playing the game?!

Also please tell me how “$$$ → Gems → Gold is any better → TP purchase of anything” is any better? And I’ll pretend to ignore the fact that usually a new bug report was met with another skin/mini/sale in the store.

Now… what were you talking about?! ._.

There were a lot of promises made and broken by Anet in time. From fixing stuff within the game, to not having the Gem Store as the core of their game. I won’t hold them responsible for most of that kitten – much. Someone else decides, I think, where the money and the team’s effort goes.

Also, it’s less about entitlement, dear OP, and more about fair treatment (and a good dose of precendence – with all new class packages from Anet delivering the corresponding character slots).

Next… free stuff you say?! Like free broken conditions mechanics for 3 years? Or maybe free missing story chapter for 2? Oh! Oh! Must be the free buggy events (that got even achievements attached to later on)?! No?! Hm… Certainly you’re not talking about the festivals, ‘cause then again, it’s something some people always loved at GW1 and something that almost all mmos host and offer free stuff while at it! And most certainly you’re not talking about the LW, out of which S1 was only available for those playing at that time (at pretty laggy, I understand), neither about S2, which I kinda payed for.

Lastly, and probably the most important part, HoT doesn’t look nor feel like an expansion or addon. It feels like a reworked GW2 (changing/improving mechanics instead of adding maps). Which would raise yet another question: So with barely any new content, the veterans would pay for the game again only because it’s The Guild Wars 2?! Or because Anet said it’s an expansion?! Really now… how was that saying? “Don’t… on my shoes and tell me it’s raining”?!

Sorean.5379:

Not to mention that GW1 maps were very simple to do,they only had 1 possible path most of the time and like 70% of the map was made with inaccessible places (mountains etc)

Did you even play GW1? Or… are you sure you’re not confusing GW1 with FFXIII, ‘cause it sure looks like that given that statment Not that GW2’s landscapes don’t have mountains or other places you kinda need to go around much.

Also, the fact that you can jump over a rock doesn’t make the map that much different, especially with really wide spaces. Add to that that you don’t have to worry about aggroing things at all, ’cause most of the mobs are either dumb to smell you passing by or just to far apart.

303 quests in GW2 circling around dancing for cows and feeding some birds between the usual fetch or kill quests. Come to think of it, I believe GW had more than 303 quests in any of its continents. As for the events, yes, they make the places more dynamic. At launch, at first visit, or when needing some collection item (which you need to wait for a game patch to get). So, from this point of view, the dynamic events not connected to anything worthwhile are less of a reason to revisit a map than Vanquisher title was in GW1.

It’s a really bad idea though to compare these two games much. One has the looks, but the other one certainly has the soul. GW2 is focused on the bling-blings from Gem Store, GW1 was focused on player’s experience more. By the way! If they would’ve offered a Rainbow Mini Rocks Collection with the pre-purchase of HoT, I’m pretty sure they would’ve melted a lot more hearts and a lot of people would’ve forgot about content

Jitsuryoku.9038:

By the way, “Free To Play” means no mandatory play-fees. If you ask me that bit of their business model is executed flawlessly (or at least best i’ve seen).
Gem store is just vanity and convenience and so far it hasn’t been very intrusive or “Buy to win” if you ask me. No overpowered pets, “bot” pets that do stuff for you, x5 exp or stuff like that.

Gemstore’s a good side thing. Should be. Not the main focus of this operation – which it is, sadly. So the business model seems to be shifting heavily towards the greedy f2p type (where another of the NC’s titles comes to mind, with lots of wings and a dumb comercial).

F2P isn’t a P2W type by default. But treating everyone here like they’re in a f2p game, with heavy restrictions in characters creation and storage is pretty much just as bad. After all, when you convert cash into gems into gold and get your ascended gear in 1 day, it still feels like P2W, hm? Which makes me think that legendaries and ascended mats can be traded over tp for this very nice reason.

@Channel: you can stop copy/pasting the same message in all threads any time now. Try getting a bit more creative maybe, hm?!

ANet’s dreams are nice and pink. And the fartblasted by their bosses raging greed.

It’s not the end of the world. Anet screwed the pooch and doesn’t seem to be neither willing nor able to do anything about it – hence the silence. “We’re reading your opinions” is largely similar to politicians say “we’re listening to your needs”. The former will move back to "ignore the complaints about bugs and make a “Mini Rock Rainbow Collection”. The latter will just blatantly ignore the people for 4 years and stuff their pockets with taxpayers’ money.

The GW1 community did what it could to support Anet then. They trusted Anet when GW2 became available for pre-order/purchase and got a boot in their teeth. And here’s the thing, when one party goes haywire like this, it loses the next elections. It isn’t given infinite second chances. So a gesture of good will from Anet is mandatory before any of the disgruntled people here will take any steps towards “signing a peace treaty”.

It’s nice to see Anet’s fans advocating for them, even in such conditions. Their effort to swipe the big cow pile under the rag is worthy of an extra character slot alone!

On the other hand, where I live $50 is 20% of the minimum wage and I would still buy HoT if through some miracle Anet would return to its roots, caring about the game and community, not about playing good puppy for NC.

Channel.9402:

Future want
-monthly sub of 10usd
-remove gem shop and put those item cosmetic ingame
-stop money grabbing marketing (ur just making ur company look stupid)

I would not pay a sub to a company that sits on the buttocks for 3 years to fix bugs and game mechanics. $360 for a broken game with many mini rocks is a bit too much

HoT is not the expansion they’ve initially hinted at. Simple as that. It’s Guild Wars 2 remake. Everything after HoT, be it free, half-free or expansions/addons will need it.

As such, $50 for HoT makes perfect sense, as long as you can convince people to buy the game again, simply because the first time round it wasn’t actually finished and you’ve had to spend to much time and effort into actually delivering the product that is 3 years overdue.

based on a reddit post, I’d say a talking mini-Colin that has a % to comment each time you use your cleaving weapon’s AA would be best way of fixing this stuff! Anet would admit to screwing the pooch in the most funny way possible!!

Guess so. However, since their intention is to actually asimilate the core into HoT… Let’s say it wouldn’t be all that wise. HoT is the new core game, they were quite clear about it. It’s also why it doesn’t have much content either. Because it’s not an expansion. It’s a rework of the foundations of GW2. Time and effort wise, it’s a new game. New content wise, it’s a DLC.

• They’ve reworked all the core mechanics. Added an extra one which could and probably will carry over in the future content too (gliding).
• They reworked the rewards system to make gathering rare mats and such less frustrating and finally prevent mad grinding (hopefully).
• They gave back the reason for the game’s name.
• They’ll hopefully make ascended armor meaningfull for all content, not just FotM (while maybe also adding crafting options for breather and accs)
• While they did put 0 effort into making the instances more enjoyable, they did say to work on making the world events more fun (hopefully that won’t mean praying to catch some big guild organizing them for a chance to see them completed – like it’s the case with TT these days)

All in all, it’s GW2 reworked. The extra map and profession are the “cherry on top” and a sorry excuse for an expansion. So, better to not split GW2 and HoT (especially since most of the work on HoT will still be enjoyed by all new GW2 players, devaluating HoT more).

The price tag isn’t the problem I think. It’s the way they presented the product and the sudden change of hearts they’ve manifested.

As such, the most important part would be a change in their behavior, that doesn’t change back after the storm passes. And by that, I mean them taking care of their game. When people point out bugs and broken mechanics, you don’t just put up more minis in the gem store.

We’re having a huge trust issue here. And that doesn’t get fixed with character slots or gems. Thing is, years ago they’ve released their MMO Manifesto and then, systematically trampled all the values they promised to uphold in it.

From my point of view, HoT is not an expansion. It’s a remake (or, if you want, the final GW2 product – the way it probably should’ve been – with a cherry on top, the Revenant). Even so, I’d fork out the cash if this time they’d promise (and stick to that promise) to focus on the game more than on the gem store. Fixing bugs and broken elements in a time frame shorter than 2 years. Hearing the community and working on their pleas, not on their desperate need for mini rocks.

As a gesture of good faith from their part, they could provide something to improve the QoL for the players (you’d think character slots, inventory upgrades – hence gems, ye) $10-$20 worth of gems – thus also covering the cost of the products they sold in not so good faith to all the people purchasing GW2 between HoT announcement and today. If need be for more reasons on this, let’s say that they did use to offer equal number of character slots and professions.

Anyway, we have moral issues here a lot bigger than financial ones. How do you fix your bad reputation before having the time to prove your good will?! Not that they are putting any effort into it, since the outburst of this mess… Gaile’s words still weight heavily, but kinda hard to be able to outweight everything else, including John’s “you rang?”…

Lyndis.4653:

(1) Calm down, I never said everything was bad in GW add-ons ! I’m not pretending to be able to do the comparison thoroughly nor to tell which one should be better.

(2) I am just saying that the proposed comparison here is highly flawed and one shouldn’t give it too much credit.

(3) The only people able to accurately estimate the worth of GW1 add-ons are the ones who played the game at the time and noone can really estimate the worth of HoT today (which is the main these pointless threads appear…).

(1) I just recently replayed through GW1 content on different classes with different builds (not the drool inducing SoS spammer). Tagging one of the best parts the community at that time was sad not to have in GW2 as a flaw kinda rubbed me the wrong way I guess All in all, looking at the core elements (not just the visual bling-blings) I fail to see anything bad within the pve section of GW1. Didn’t play enough pvp to have an opinion. Oh wait! There are two things: dailies in Presearing and reducing the required title tier required for the pve skills max efficiency (thus making half the work have less meaning all of a sudden)

(2) I totally agree with you, for different reasons. The 3 GW1 elements were additions to Prophecies, HoT looks and feels more like a remake of the core game – hence the comparison is invalid

(3) You can estimate the worth of a product based on similar features of similar products. It’s what mankind always does. “My dog’s better than yours”, “Grass is greener…” etc. If you compare – taking ANet’s words as true – this “expansion” to the other they’ve released (for GW1), HoT has the value of a Mail Carrier. But the comparison should be – again – done with “A Realm Reborn”, ‘cause when you alter the mechanics of a game the way they did, it is not an expansion, it’s a remake. How many other companies charged their customers twice for the same product?! And of those those, how many survived to tell the tale?!

Guys, please stop taking ANet’s word at “ultimate truth” value. It doesn’t make much sense with the FAQ kitten . Nor if you consider how many times they said to fix this and that with zero effects throughout a couple of years. “ANet said it’s an expansion” sounds as sad (and yet funny) as possible.

@TheBlackLeech: LW is not free, actually. My friend forked out the cash to play it. As for HoT, to me, it’s frustrating to see ANet repackage GW2, give it a green tag and ask for the money again: so what?! they’ve fixed their core game and almost have the final product – the way it should’ve been from the start – and are calling it an expansion?!

@Achrisos: the way people percive the value of a product can differ a lot. I for one, wouldn’t pay 350 gems for a rock, nor $50 for a map 3 times bigger than SW (or 20 times, same thing). 2-3 VW event chains in one day and I need at least a couple of days away from that place. The rest however….

• Revenant – can’t play it, ‘cause ANet went stingy mode on character slots and, after “fixing” the problem myself – I swear I felt like in a f2p about it – and getting all classes, HoT doesn’t bring the bonus slot with the extra profession
• Specializations?! it’s not only that, it’s a new leveling system altogether and if it nullifies the time I’ve spent setting up my toons (3 map completions later it’s no longer that fun to do things again and again), it’s gonna be something I loathe, no matter how good the new system will be. Also, if the new system won’t offer more build setups and if it won’t be carefully balanced by the Lazynet team more often – gw1 style – it won’t matter much.
• skins! yaaay! wait. Nevermind. It was raining skins in the game lately. As for the ascended gear, a good friend of mine told me that Anet promised not do add the extra tier of gear at all – invalidating the efforts people made at that time to get their exotics. And just as a fun fact, we’ll still only have the Soldier’s Aquabreather from Teq as end game underwater gear, right?!)
• the legendary weapons are a joke. When you can buy it off the TP that item has, basically the value of a mini rock in terms of prestige. And the way you’d get the materials to craft it?! RNGesus much?! “We don’t want our players to grind”? ahahahah!
• Guild Hall should’ve been there from the very start, but NC rushed the product to the shelves.

Lyndis.4653:

To anyone who didn’t play GW1, you might want to know how many of the skills ended up being actually useful, how much time you spent per area, how little new guild halls mattered, how good the new PvP modes were, etc…

If you want to be smart by knowing the facts, you should probably not stop to the facts that support your view. The list of missing factors is quite large.

Oh?! And how much of the GW2’s gear, traits and upgrades matter(ed)? Zerk gear and Ice Bow 4? Talking about biased and unjust comments and comparisons. How many of the 18 dungeons in GW1’s only expansion (that sold for half the HoT’s price) were ran?! How fun were the campaigns compared with what we had here?! How good the PvP(vE?) maps of GW2 are?! sorry! map, ‘cause there’s only one and a bit broken.
How do you explain 9 classes with 5 slots when previous releases had slots for all basic classes and when combined, extra ones for the new classes?! How long does it take you to actually do the pve part of the game in GW2? (we’re talking possible hours of gameplay, hm?!) How much time you would’ve spent to get the achievements in EotN? (not to mention the standalones) How useful the skills from the EotN titles?

Let’s say that EotN alone came with more dungeon content than GW2 (19 dungeons with 2 modes). That zones-wise, it was half the size of GW2 map. That also added mechanics and items that greatly improved the player’s QoL. All that for half the price of this “expansion”. NF and Factions don’t even need mentioning, really.

Free GW2 content wasn’t free for all, neither is it available for all no more. Don’t count it in. WiK, HotN and WoC were free content for all and permanent in GW1.

Defend what you want, but that comparison helps.
Greedy with that much focus on mini rocks is x, sloppy with all those bug-fixes breaking other things and a bit lazy with fixing what they promised to and delayed till Doomsday (or HoT?), conditions mechanics, story, broken mobs and events… Plenty of things to compare, and most of them give them little – if any – credit.

It’s in our nature though, to hope for better and defend ourselves when something may be revealing we made some poor decisions along the way. The state of the game and of this forum are both an indirect result of this behaviors.

“It was better back then, but it still ain’t all bad now, so maybe tomorrow…”

Burn.5401:

GW2 dungeons are challenging? Are you insane?

They are! Duo’ing whatever dungeons aren’t requiring full group or so is quite challenging. Of course, there’s absolutely no reward to justify spending any amount of time in there (like a very rare skin that you can’t get some place else). And once you sort out the optimal tactics for the fastest way through a dungeon, and the next, and… You’re done. No incentive to run it at all and not many that can be tackled without a full group. Full group kinda turns any dungeon into a /faceroll though.

In comparison, even when the market for rares in GW1 fell with the GW2, running Bogroot’s, Kathandrax, SoO, Fow, UW, DoA was still pleasant and gave that lil extra incentive. Even if no one cared that much about BDSes, DSRs or Obby Armors, they were still something to look for inside the dungeon. What about here?! 3 tokens/boss?!

Following the spirit of comparison and taking both the good and the bad, we can safely say, I think, that:

• GW1 had free content too, all the festive events and everything following EotN, delivered in a pretty much LW style with the exception of never having to pay for it

• GW1 however also had constant bug fixing and skill balancing, something that GW2 was and still is badly needing. During GW1 times you wouldn’t spend 2 years not being able to progress through Echovald, or unable to catch a wurm outside the Gate of Desolation. During GW1 times, you wouldn’t have mobs bugging out in instances or quests failing continuously for a couple of years. And certainly, pve and pvp skill balancing wasn’t happening once in a full moon.

What does that say?! Dunno, maybe too much focus on mini rocks and too little on the quality of the content?! I didn’t see it, but I’ve heard LWS1 was as much a mess as it was a pleasant surprize. But then again, you have Ogre Wars perma-bugging, Lupicus acting crazy while guardians act crazy on Lupicus and no one gives a rat’s butt – or a goggly eye stone.

Also, as long as the free content that will ship to HoT doesn’t stay – or doesn’t stay free – can’t be tagged as free at all. Just as GW2 sales don’t set the price for the product at that value.

Lastly, maybe start considering HoT more of a “Realm Reborn” type of product rather than an expansion/dlc. It’s a stand-alone game that adds to the core, but that particular core is too intimately connected here to actually survive on its own at all. So it’s not a Prophecies-Factions situation.

As such, maybe a comparison between what FFXIV and the reworked product would be closer to where we stand. Did they add new stuff? did they improve mechanics?! And most importantly, did they require the people who already purchased the faulty product to buy it again?!

• Did they rework the story (including the long AWOL chapter)?
• Did they replaced those characters in the cutscenes that have the emotion of a person reading the commercials in a newspaper with actual cutscenes?
• Did they clear all the game mechanics bugs and fixed all their broken events and erratic mobs behavior?
• Will they stop prioritizing the Gem Store over game needs?
• Lastly, can they gain the community’s trust back by stopping the lie-train at their superiors’ order?!
  If all the above would have an affirmative answer, the only other thing left to do would be adding character slots for all the base classes to the “expansion” and a bank/inventory slot to sweeten the deal and I’m pretty sure the fact they’d be basically reselling the same game again won’t enrage half the community.