Guild Wars 2

Sorry but I’m not going to respond to your wall of text point by point to restate what I’ve already said.

Power engi doesn’t really offer anything to a raid a condi engi doesn’t already do, and it is hamstrung by certain conditions being met to even compete with condi whereas condi only gets stronger the more meta-compliant your raid group is.

In truth a combo of power staff ele and condi engi+necro is far superior to any scenario that involves a power engineer, and to defend the choice with “33k” damage being advertised in this thread boils down to neglecting reality.

Play power if you want out of laziness, but don’t try and justify it as a superior build.

ellesee.8297:

Static Shot + Glue Shot on a weapon would probably take home the trophy for worst weapon in the game. Trying to think of something that’s worse. Maybe Necro focus but at least that removes boons and stacks a lot of vuln.

p/p condi would still be the best damage for raids, but would at least make p/s viable in case break bars aren’t broken quickly enough.

First of all, power engi only matches condi engi with Modified Ammo completely maxed out with all conditions maintained on the golem. This is literally not possible in a raid environment, and doesn’t even happen during large scale events like Tequatl with 100+ people.

Second of all, condi engi is a huge aspect to necro’s epidemic dealing maximum damage. Engineers have significantly greater access to burning than necromancers do, which means dropping the condi engi for a power engi actually hurts the necro’s damage as well.

I get it if you don’t want to play condi. It’s a pain in the rear to perfect and it’s pretty cumbersome overall. And while it may seem like power competes with condi engi, the golem isn’t really the best measurement of damage output because it assumes perfect conditions and doesn’t take into account things like epidemic that greatly improve not just your DPS but the DPS of others.

Play power if you want outside of Vale Guardian, but understand that the golem is an unrealistic testing environment when you’re relying on things like Mod Ammo that scale your damage based on how many conditions are on the boss. I would personally only go power if there’s already a condi engi in the raid group to bolster epidemic.

ukuni.8745:

i was serious guys i literally used medic gyro over healing turret like all the time since hot released.

it must just be my kittenty aussie ping that makes it so good in my eyes.

The Medic Gyro has a 4510 heal with a 820 ticking heal that ticks 4 times over its 14 second duration; this means it gives a total of 7790 health every 34 seconds (20s CD + 14s duration). With Final Salvo this jumps up to 2280+7790 healing every 34 seconds (or 296 a second). Detonating it immediately, instead of getting the tick heal, gives you 6790 every 20 seconds—or 339 a second.

Part of the purpose of this thread is to establish that issue: where there’s literally no advantage to keeping the gyro out, essentially rendering the entire play style pointless. But even detonating the gyro immediately doesn’t make it particularly shine.

The Healing Turret has a 5040 heal every 15 seconds when picked up or a 5040+1320 heal when blasted every 20 seconds—or 336 healing a second when picked up and 318 healing a second when detonated.

Therefore, the Healing Turret already matches and in some cases outperforms the Medic Gyro before you even consider the added advantages of the condi cleanse, the 2x water field access (both on shorter CDs), or that Final Salvo essentially forces you to root yourself.

It’s literally no contest. The Healing Turret even outperforms the Medic Gyro in its function of AoE/party healing, as only the engineer makes use of Final Salvo thanks to Rapid Regeneration, and the Healing Turret can be immediately blasted versus relying on it surviving in heavy situations.

The Medic Gyro only serves one purpose right now: and that’s having a “big” water field for WvW. But that’s simply not good enough reason to me. And rather than nerf the Healing Turret and put the core engi in a worse spot, the Medic Gyro needs either (1) a reworked heal so that keeping it out is actually worthwhile or (2) offer something the Healing Turret doesn’t like pulsing AoE Resistance.

As it stands right now, anyone who is swapping over to the Medic Gyro from the Healing Turret is just nerfing their sustain and their build. The only value it has is in large scale WvW situations where a long duration water field can help keep a zerg alive.

I sense we’ll see the shield get more play when we get our next weapon (ideally the axe, mace, or sword) and specialization, but this is a good idea. It doesn’t affect P/P as the max condi build for PvE, but it makes P/S more attractive in PvP/WvW. This in turn would help balance out the disparity baseline engi and scrapper, and make every weapon used somewhere in the game.

insanemaniac.2456:

i know regen is not the only justification for using healing turret over another heal, but it really doesnt even need to be a consideration!

That’s why I skipped over talking about it in my OP. I just thought it was something else to add to the discussion to represent just how good the Healing Turret is: Bunker Down requires the pre-requisite of good crit chance to give close to the same amount of regen.

I also think that with the current meta with mesmers applying a dozen stacks of confusion on us, there are common instances where trying to forcefully proc Bunker Down would do more harm than good.

insanemaniac.2456:

that is a weak if. if you arent picking them up, you either dont need them or you arent walking forward. obviously either situation can be true… idk is it an issue for you that other people are hogging your medpacks? frequently when i come out of a teamfight that i won / ran from, ill have ~30 secs of regen on me. using healing turret, of course. but having 30 secs of regen after the fight is over is unnecessary.

I didn’t imply it was an issue. I was agreeing with you—though I guarantee almost all of that ~30 seconds of excess regen post-combat is coming from your Healing Turret and Regenerating Mist, not Bunker Down.

Between Alchemical Tinctures’ +20% boon duration and Healing Resonator’s +7 regen you can get 24 seconds of regen just activating both skills once. It’s completely insane.

I don’t particularly recommend doing it for obvious reasons, but you could easily maintain over a minute of regen—if it’s not stripped—just dropping and picking up the Healing Turret on CD. Is it unnecessary? I guess, but that’s not really the point of the discussion here. It just highlights how much stronger a healing skill the Healing Turret is compared to anything else; the sum of its parts greatly outweighs any other option and outclasses the Medic Gyro even though it requires a grandmaster trait to be remotely competitive and the Scrapper traitline to even be equipped. The opportunity cost is substantial, especially in PvE where Scrapper is beyond useless.

But I’m not here to ask that Elixir H, AED, or the Med Kit ever git gud. We’ve been requesting that for years and I think it’s a lost cause. I’m just here to further incentivize and provide value for a $60 expansion that was intended to steepen the depth of choice for our profession.

insanemaniac.2456:

hmm when youre in inventions you have perma regen with or without healing turret. health packs give 200% base uptime each, far more than enough to make up for not getting one exactly every 2 secs.

If other people aren’t picking them up in team fights, yes.

ukuni.8745:

wait just a second……..

was i the only one who thought medic gyro was better then healing turrets when used properly?

Except it’s not. I saved commenting on other aspects just because my post was getting extremely long, but the Healing Turret with Inventions basically gives you near permanent regeneration, which means near permanent +250 healing power—substantially empowering your Rapid Regeneration.

The problem with the Medic Gyro, is that the only regeneration you get out of it comes from Healing Amplifier, which means you want to detonate it immediately to maximize your returns for Final Salvo—creating further disincentive to keep it out.

Every aspect of the Healing Turret just snowballs into each other. It’s quite an amazing healing skill. I just wish the Medic Gyro actually offered something that made it worth taking over it versus just giving us a mobile water field for WvW.

Pride.1734:

Nerf it to the ground with all the other ai minion crap that this game has. Have turret engis. spirit rangers and mm necros taught you nothing? Gameplay that comes from them being good is just not fun.

I agree that AI builds don’t belong in GW2, but we’re stuck with them. I don’t think nerfing gyros is a step in the right direction, either. I’m tired of kit-centric builds on the engineer, and it’s frustrating that we don’t even use Scrapper in any serious PvE content.

For four years I’ve been mashing grenades, and for four years I’ve been blasting my Healing Turret. Some variety just for the sake of something different would be nice.

Xyonon.3987:

it would simply be better than the HT.

That’s kind of the idea.

Fluffball.8307:

style.6173:

too many other good games are getting released around the same time.

“GW2 is Dead because of _” post: Check!

Overwatch won’t kill GW2, but you will see substantially less players this season because of it.

displacedTitan.6897:

Until ANet MASSIVELY buffs the damage output on Pistol to the level of hammer, we will never see an optimal Pistol build.

Having to take Firearms for the pistol to be effective isn’t a problem. You have to take Scrapper to even equip the hammer in the first place. In reality the opportunity cost is exactly the same, and both options allow you to take Inventions and Alchemy together, which are the two trees that really keep engineer viable in high end PvP.

Scrapper gives us the function gyro, stability, evades, and your choice of either extra toughness + 20% condi damage reduction or a healthy access to super speed to proc Rapid Regeneration.

Firearms just gives us more condi damage and Incendiary Powder.

The issue isn’t that pistols lack damage: Firearms as a tree just doesn’t offer everything that Scrapper does. What ArenaNet needs to focus on moving forward isn’t nerfing Scrapper or buffing the pistol. They simply need to rebalance Firearms, Tools, and Explosives so that forgoing the utility of the baseline engineer in favor of Scrapper’s defensive stature is a difficult choice—because right now it’s not.

I also think a huge issue impeding builds like P/P HGH (Firearms/Alchemy/Inventions) being good again isn’t an issue exclusive to the engineer but the general problem of elite specializations being broken across the board. Try running a pre-HoT bunker guardian or a D/D ele and see how that goes; in truth, baseline engineer is a lot more viable than most. I remember seeing some people posting they got to legendary running it both in the first season and the second one. The main issue is that druid, tempest, revenant, and chronomancer are still absolutely insane compared to pre-HoT damage and sustain. Scrapper, dragonhunter, and reaper got toned down, but it’s really not enough.

And, I mean, we do run Explosives, Firearms, and Tools in raids. Engineer is arguably one of the most balanced professions in the game right now. It has value in PvE, PvP, and WvW. So give ANet some credit.

displacedTitan.6897:

Good thing we got all those Pistol and Gadget buffs! They are all so useful now and opened up so many builds for us! /s

I think pistol/pistol engi is plenty viable. It’s just not our best choice.

Looks pretty similar to the Soldier Rifle build some used to run before HoT came out, except you’re obviously taking scrapper over inventions.

I’ll have to try it out.

BertBoy.9031:

my favorite part of this post was the part when you considered elixir u mine and blast gyro the likely next meta utility. glad we have some outside the box thinkers

Blast Gyro isn’t a particularly bad choice. It actually provides significantly more sustain than Slick Shoes does in its current form. At 380 hp/sec for 5 seconds, Slick Shoes’ toolbelt can basically be normalized to adding 76 hp/sec to your sustain.

Bypass Coating isn’t that great, giving us only three seconds every 30 … but Blast Gyro only has a 15 second cooldown and gives you 6 seconds of super speed every time you detonate it with Final Salvo. That’s 142 hp/sec normalized over its cooldown, which is actually stronger than what Slick Shoes gave us pre-nerf (94 hp/sec normalized from 470 per tick).

Even still I’d take a pre-nerf Slick Shoes over Blast Gyro, just because Slick Shoes was a crazy powerful CC skill in the hands of a good engineer, but those days are gone and you’re stuck deciding between a one-off KD or a one-off KB—one of which doesn’t have a 40 second cooldown to deal with.

Naix.8156:

What’s your measuring stick here? Hot join play? Vs the near random matchups in unranked right now? Curious, what other 1v1 matchups are you going to find yourself in in even mid-level matchmaking matches?

Even though unranked might be a total gong show right now, I’ve had plenty of good matches to develop proper points of comparison between different builds I’ve tried. The one I linked just proved most effective, including successful 1v1s against established PvPers.

It’s easy for me to know when I’m fighting against good players—I recognize most of them. I mean, it’s a pretty small community of players at the top. I also know when I’m fighting against PvE players looking to finish their dailies, and I know when I’m playing with notoriously bad players including that one thief main I won’t mention by name that rushes far ad infinitum.

So to answer your question: what’s my measuring stick? A build that wins battles fighting the people in front of me. Is there some other metric I’m supposed to go by?

Naix.8156:

So your definition of ‘sustain is absolutely bananas’ is that you can be carried in a teamfight by a support class. Even within your ‘someone can carry me in a teamfight’ logic, wouldn’t you agree that it would be better choice to pair either of those support options with a rev or necro.

Uhh… lol?

The build I linked provides multiple water fields, multiple AoE condi cleanses, an unblockable knockback, and good sustained damage. It’s literally the same exact build as what I ran pre-patch except I swapped Elixir B for Bulwark and Slick Shoes for Blast Gyro.

I looked over what hit us most. Super speed heals for less? I dropped Slick Shoes for Blast Gyro and took a quantity over quality approach. Losing out on a leap finisher? I dropped Sneak Gyro for Mortar Kit and opted for more healing.

In reality I think this build fills a pretty similar role to what the scrapper build did pre-patch: a good mix of sustain, damage, and CC. It’s just instead of knocking people down with Slick Shoes I knock people back with Blast Gyro.

As for my definition of sustain being absolutely bananas: it involves winning 80% of my games testing this build and losing over 50% of my games trying lesser derivatives of it—including one particularly embarrassing moment getting almost instantly 100-0’d by Phantaram while I was trying a Mender’s amulet version of something similar.

Truthfully everything is going to be a small sample size given the fact that I’ve only played a few dozen games since the patch with how much fun WvW has been, and I have a general rust to shake off after not playing the game for over five months, but the guy simply asked for a build that worked and I linked one. No one’s planning a parade here.

If you want to poke holes in it to satisfy your “woe is us” narrative, by all means, have at it. But I’ve already made my contribution here and I’m not really interested in entertaining whether a revenant or necro would be better suited as I don’t desire to play either classes currently and I haven’t tested what options they bring to the table. When you find that unblockable AoE knockback and multiple water fields on a revenant, though, you come and find me.

Peace and love.

This is what I’ve been running this off-season.

I find it incredibly easy to 1v1 most professions and really only struggle against revenants and condi mesmers, which is to be expected. I think engineers will probably shift to team fighting this season anyway, letting mes take sides on start.

In team fights the sustain is just absolutely bananas. Paired with a druid or ele you can 2vX a point for quite a long time.

Naix.8156:

The issue with the engie ‘balanace’ changes are that nothing was given in exchange for the amount of survival gutted out of the class. It’s put engie in a pretty tough spot right now.

Super speed still ticks for 380 a second with baseline healing power. It wasn’t gutted anywhere near as much as people make it out to be. You just can’t run Marauder and expect to facetank in 1v2 situations anymore.

I think it’s safe to say that six months out from the HoT launch, Medic Gyro could use a revision or two.

That’s not to say it’s entirely bad. In fact it has one of the best toolbelt skills of all the healing skills, with a super long water field that pulses protection and moves with you. It just would actually be nice if the Medic Gyro was a strong choice too, because over the past four years—including the influence of a $60 expansion—the engineer hasn’t moved beyond the Healing Turret aside from a few blips on the timeline when HGH elixir builds were top-tier.

Part of the issue is that the Healing Turret by design covers everything you need. Burst healing? Check. Regeneration? Check. Water field? Check. Condi cleanse? Check. It not only outperforms pretty much every single healing skill we have in every one of these categories, it does so offering the added utility of a blast finisher in any situation you’re not blasting water (i.e., stacking might). It’s been the de facto choice for PvE, PvP, and WvW for almost the entirety of this game’s existence for that reason. But rather than nerf the Healing Turret—as that would only further widen the gap between scrapper and non-scrapper builds—I think it’d be beneficial if ArenaNet would reconsider how the Medic Gyro could fill a niche the Healing Turret can’t fill instead.

On paper it appears that ArenaNet intended the Medic Gyro to be better suited for large scale situations. Between the mobile water field and the pulsing AoE heal, there’s a lot of utility in taking the Medic Gyro over the Healing Turret. Here’s the problem though: in WvW gyros get shredded almost instantly, and in raids you have druids taking care of almost all the healing needs for your group. In truth, there’s just no situation where the Medic Gyro really shines.

This identity crisis is further compounded by the fact that the AoE pulse field on the Medic Gyro actually diminishes its healing potential over time.

The Medic Gyro heals for 4510 with an 820 pulse heal that ticks 4 times while it is out—or a total of 7,790 returning health. Because the gyro itself stays out for 14 to do this, that essentially means you’re getting 7,790 over 34 seconds (including activation time), or 229 healing a second. Comparatively, if one were to detonate the Medic Gyro immediately, instead of keeping it out, you’re simply getting the 4510 every 20 seconds—or 225 healing a second.

Keeping the Medic Gyro out seems to be the better option, especially when that healing extends to your allies and not just yourself, but consider this: with Final Salvo being the optimal choice for gyro builds, it’s actually better just to detonate the Medic Gyro and not leave it out.

Rapid Regeneration ticks 380 healing a second when under the effects of super speed. I’m sure you can tell that this is substantially stronger healing per second than what you get out of a baseline Medic Gyro. Detonating a Medic Gyro gives you 6 total seconds of super speed, or 2280 healing tacked onto every Medic Gyro activation (after it’s destroyed). I’m sure you can see where I’m going with this.

With Final Salvo, holding out your Medic Gyro results in ~10K every 34 seconds. (294 healing/sec)

With Final Salvo, detonating your Medic Gyro results in ~6.5K every 20 seconds. (325 healing/sec)

So not only does holding out the Medic Gyro lack any real utility in the current state of the game because of damage saturation in WvW and druids in raids, mechanically the scrapper traitline places emphasis on detonating your Medic Gyro immediately and cycling super speed as much as possible versus keeping it out.

As for what can be done to remedy this, I think there’s two ideas I have in mind:

1. Rework the Medic Gyro so that it doesn’t just pulse heal, it also provides a beneficial boon that makes it worth keeping out (e.g., Resistance)

2. Rework the Medic Gyro so that it cleanses conditions every tick instead of a pulse heal. (Or both?)

Both of these decisions don’t affect the fact that blasting the gyro is better healing, but it makes you decide between extra healing or another, perhaps more situationally useful effect.

bearshaman.3421:

Sorry if my post was unclear. I was agreeing with you. I knew what you meant, I was just lamenting that people keep thinking otherwise.

Oh I know. But you were asking where people got the idea that specializations fix existing skills/traits, which is why I used the examples of Slick Shoes and Juggernaut. There are better examples in other professions, but I thought those would be more clearly relate-able.

bearshaman.3421:

And yet people keep talking about elite specs like they are gonna fix EXISTING skills and traits. I don’t know where they get this idea, one look at them shows that the most impact they have on preexisting profession skills/traits/etc is that some of them modify the class mechanic (not the case for scrapper). I find it mind-boggling that this idea keeps coming up in conjunction with elite specs. This is what patches are for.

Slick Shoes was sometimes used prior to scrapper’s release, but it got a major buff in utility with Rapid Regeneration. And it’s not hard to see the implied synergy between Juggernaut, Mass Momentum, and Applied Force—even if it still falls short of other options.

My original point was that elite specializations do not add to preexisting utility skill categories. As in, I find it incredibly unlikely that we will get more kits. Elite specializations have already made preexisting traits and utility skills more useful, however, and it wouldn’t surprise me if our next specialization makes the Bomb Kit or Tool Kit a bit more useful. Hell, that’s what a lot of us were asking for this time around, prior to the elite spec reveal.

To be honest I’m not really quite sure what another specialization for us would even look like. We have our melee weapon. We have our condi weapon. We have our power weapon. Maybe a mace or axe to give the shield a real chance to be used this century? Hard to say.

DemonSeed.3528:

Sheriff Sauer has taken over the duty now

The duty of what? Stealing other peoples’ builds without giving credit and monetizing their website? He’s the primary reason I stopped writing guides. I was competing against my own work.

Either way, thanks Sauer. I’ll try out your builds, and the others posted here.

Dash.8027:

I have several builds posted that work post patch on my website and videos to go with most of them.

Engi is still very much viable for roaming and organized WvW play.

Did Wolfineer quit or something?

mistsim.2748:

what? no it hasnt. the best scrapper builds were cele.

People ran Cele just because it had a nice mix of Precision and Healing Power.

Inventions/Alchemy/Scrapper has minimal condition access. Mostly blind and chill.

Rocknull.2986:

send me 100 gold and i’ll give you the build

lol.

Shaogin.2679:

Nilix.2170:

bearshaman.3421:

5 years from now we will have enough of them for all the builds of the different professions to be recognized. Maybe. Hopefully. Someday.

The first Elite Spec for Engineer that comes with a kit rather than multiple utilities is going to be the last Elite Spec it’ll ever want.

I really hope no new kits are ever introduced. I’d rather see useful utilities, and reworks to some of our dead utilities (Gadgets and Turrets).

They’ve made it pretty clear that specializations bring a new categories of utilities (i.e., gyros) and not simply tack onto currently existing categories.

So with the SoS/GoM merger, alongside the stability and AoE target cap changes, WvW is really quite a lot of fun these days.

Prior to Tuesday’s patch people claimed that engineer (scrapper) is a capable frontliner, though our roaming potential has nose-dived significantly. I am curious whether or not this is still true? And what kinds of builds people are running in WvW, either for zerging or roaming?

Thanks.

insanemaniac.2456:

Phineas Poe.3018:

Generosity was kind of a kneejerk choice with how popular condi warrior and mesmer are at the moment, but I might end up dropping that at some point when the meta starts to settle.

i think you should drop generosity. i love it so much, but… idk, i just dont have enough trouble with condis to feel like i need the extra oomph, and i always feel like with how often i crit and how uncontrollable my crits are, i end up sending the first of whatever… and then the mesmer shatters and racks up 9 torment. and what got sent back was like a stack of vuln or a bleed, just because they inflict single condis without doing anything.

when i take air and strength, my eg hurts more while chasing and necros have a harder time stripping things that arent might.

Yeah I’ll probably go back to using Air. It just felt like every game I was fighting two condi mesmers today.

I’ve spent the past few days playing with a lot of different setups. Some of them went decently well, others were just absolutely awful. Firearms/Alchemy/Tools condi is still viable. And Scrapper condi isn’t bad. But after a while I’d always retreat back to a build pretty similar to what I was running pre-patch and it feels pretty much the same in effectiveness with some tweaks.

This is what I was running pre-patch.

This is what I’m running now.

Really the only changes I ended up making were:

1. Blast Gyro over Slick Shoes
2. Sigil of Leeching+Generosity over Air+Fire
3. Final Salvo over Adaptive Armor

In sum I’ve lost -20% reduced condition damage, 60-300 toughness, some additional sigil damage, and the KD/mobility from Slick Shoes. And the Rapid Regeneration and Rocket Charge nerfs are certainly noticeable.

But after swapping my Slick Shoes for Blast Gyro, I felt the RR nerf was almost entirely mitigated by just how much more Super Speed you’re getting from Blast Gyro and Bypass Coating. Even with the RR nerf the amount of Super Speed you get from both of those skills (with Final Salvo) completely outclasses Slick Shoes; it just does so without contributing quite as much crowd control.

The nerf to Rocket Charge was harder to fix, but I found Sigil of Leeching does exceptionally well. I’ve seen it heal ~1.3k at times, which is way stronger than it was pre-patch—so it’s definitely something to consider.

Generosity was kind of a kneejerk choice with how popular condi warrior and mesmer are at the moment, but I might end up dropping that at some point when the meta starts to settle.

Mortar Kit is a personal choice, but I find it shines particularly well with this setup given that Mortar Kit gives me more damage, a blast finisher (for more healing or whatever), and a water field to compensate some of the other losses I’ve accepted in the new build … but I recognize that the Sneak Gyro is a personal preference to some.

I was running double gyros (Bulwark + Blast) for a few matches, but it doesn’t seem like the Bulwark Gyro mitigates your condition damage by half—only direct damage. And with how powerful mesmer is right now it seems kinda pointless to me to not build around the strongest professions. Elixir B’s extra condition cleanses just felt more useful to me, and the safe stomp you get from Elixir B helps make resses/stomping easier with the removal of Slick Shoes. I guess that’s also really up to personal preference.

Ultimately, yes, Scrapper is weaker this patch, and we have to drop some of our damage to reach the same levels of survivability we had pre-patch … but who seriously didn’t see that coming? I 1v2’d and even at times 1v3’d people during season two. It was absolute nonsense. Sure engineer has always been a profession to be able to outclass most classes 1v1 and even 1v2, but not while literally face-tanking damage, standing on the point.

I honestly most of the people crying around here are either the same old dorks that complain after every nerf patch (could name a few but I won’t) or they’re new engineers that literally rolled the class either at HoT launch or with the new season. Scrapper is still ridiculously strong, way stronger than P/P HGH or Soldier Rifle ever were.

displacedTitan.6897:

Phineas Poe.3018:

Ardid.7203:

I’m begining to think Scrappers should prepare themselves for even more nerfs…

Honestly Blast Gyro with Mender’s amulet is pretty insane.

Do you mean Medic Gyro or is there an interaction with Blast Gyro I dont know about?

Final Salvo.

Not saying it’s meta or anything. In fact I think it’s complete overkill on the healing power, and the baseline toughness can be a bit rough against spike damage builds, especially in 1vX situations.

But if you really want to be tanky it’s an option.

Spartacus.3192:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/support/bugs/Revenant-Grandmaster-Trait-Issue/first#post6113252

Yup, just saw it was posted like 5 minutes after I wrote this one.

Ardid.7203:

I’m begining to think Scrappers should prepare themselves for even more nerfs…

Honestly Blast Gyro with Mender’s amulet is pretty insane.

Currently this trait is bugged to where it deals substantially more damage than it is supposed to.

In the past, you guys have deactivated traits like Grenadier until they were fixed for the sake of preserving game balance.

Please do the same for AA until it’s fixed.

Thanks.

Here is the trait in question.

Ohitei.8043:

Engi is no longer allowed to use any healing skill to survive comparing to others.

-Too long Cast Time.

It blows my mind that for close to a year I was able to use Elixir H with a full one second cast speed against thieves and mesmers and yet people are crying that the Healing Turret is useless with a .75 cast speed activation.

There is, admittedly, a lot more CC flying around now versus what there was pre-HoT when P/P HGH was strong, but the Scrapper affords you so much stability between Final Salvo and Perfectly Weighted (never mind still having Toss Elixir B as well) that getting your healing skill consistently interrupted shouldn’t be blamed on “basic beginner” thieves but your own play.

Even when Final Salvo wasn’t working on patch day, I messed with a Mender amulet setup with Adaptive Armor outlasting most 1v1 encounters and several 1v2 encounters. The only class I couldn’t really stand up to was Revenant, but that’s less an issue of our nerfs and more an issue of Assassin’s Annihilation dealing waaaaay more than it’s supposed to (like 2K+ vs. the ~300 it’s supposed to do).

With Final Salvo back into the mix it’s really tough to argue that Scrapper isn’t still one of the better classes in the bruiser role—and plenty survivable even with the new damage amulets. And with Slick Shoes getting nerfed, Blast Gyro is arguably a stronger replacement.

I’m running something pretty similar, but I’ve opted for Elixir B over Bulwark.

I find that Blast Gyro helps offset the nerf to Rapid Regeneration pretty handily, and with the added utility of a decent-ish CD knockback.

insanemaniac.2456:

its as if youre using your guild to shelter yourself from reality.

The reality of … what? Clearing raids just as easily as we always have? No longer swapping out a single utility in a single boss battle?

Crushing.

Best of luck with your pug groups, either way.

insanemaniac.2456:

Phineas Poe.3018:

Dahkeus.8243:

This is not about whether you can clear raids with an engi. This is about whether engi does anything better than other classes or has any niche that makes them worth bringing over other classes when all else is equal.

And again, this just returns to my original question: did people seriously bring engineers in their raids just for Slick Shoes? A well played engineer deals top-tier condition damage. And this patch hasn’t changed that.

Obviously that’s testing vs. the golem and not against bosses where epidemic is more useful, but the concern that others share here that they might somehow be threatening their raid’s success by taking their engineer over a necromancer is ridiculous (unless they’re just not very good at it, but that’s a separate issue).

yes, they seriously did.

i suggest you occasionally pug raids. first, teaching and carrying scrubs is more challenging than 8 manning with capable people. second, youll get a better picture of how leaders form their groups when they cant count on people being anything but idiots.

Why should I waste my time teaching people that aren’t in my guild? I will never see them again. That sounds like an absolutely aggravating experience, and the suggestion that engineer has fallen from favor because of how pug raids work is like implying Metabattle should structure their PvP builds only around solo queue.

I really think you should try and join a larger and more active guild. Less salt that way about class bias, for one.

Dahkeus.8243:

Phineas…I have no idea what’s gotten you so riled up into your essay responses.

I’m not saying anyone should reroll. My guild would never force anyone to play anything they didn’t want to.

“Riled up?” I don’t think I’m being particularly passionate about anything. If anything I’ve been the most dispassionate person in this discussion. For real, you wrote in your own OP:

Dahkeus.8243:

After this last patch, I’m a bit worried about the use of engis in raids. With the nerf to slick shoes, engis lost some of their best utility for fights and I’m left wondering:
Why would a raid want an engi?

The amount of doom and gloom in this thread is unbelievably hilarious. People were clearing wing one with 3+ engis long before anyone even thought to bring Slick Shoes. And our damage hasn’t been nerfed since then. It’s been buffed.

Dahkeus.8243:

This is not about whether you can clear raids with an engi. This is about whether engi does anything better than other classes or has any niche that makes them worth bringing over other classes when all else is equal.

Again, this just returns to my original question: did people seriously bring engineers in their raids just for Slick Shoes? A well played engineer deals top-tier condition damage. And this patch hasn’t changed that.

Obviously that’s testing vs. the golem and not against bosses where epidemic is more useful, but the concern that others share here that they might somehow be threatening their raid’s success by taking their engineer over a necromancer is ridiculous (unless they’re just not very good at it, but that’s a separate issue).

Rocknull.2986:

T hank you jeebus! ! Had a killer night raiding with guild this evening . I feel finale salvo is truly the niche engis have been looking for in wvw. consistent cc. great damage.and the utilities from the tool belt skills on gyro truly help the raid as a whole . So kittening hap p y rite now . Thank u anet!

But…

There were a few times were I felt statics were not activating but that could just be visual lag. But if it was not lag it felt like it happened when I tri e d to destroy the gyro rite after activating giving it little or no time to fulfill it’s primary function of said gyro .

Do you have Effect LOD on? I noticed it would sometimes not pop up because of that.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/4fpdft/serious_bug_regarding_signets/d2axdmy

Dahkeus.8243:

I know that the engi class is very near and dear to you. I know you’ve refreshed engi forum threads until your fingers bled ever since the early days of GuildWars2Guru being the big serious community.

I’ve actually been playing Black Desert the past two months and considered Guild Wars 2 dead and buried until they actually got their ess together with this quarterly update, but I’m glad to see that you recognize me for the dork I am.

Dahkeus.8243:

That doesn’t change the facts. Groups will make the best choices for a smooth run if they have a choice unless they’re trying to prove something or make a video for something. I’m sorry the reality is not painting engis in a glowing light right now, but that doesn’t make the point of this discussion irrelevant.

For the past 3.5 years engineer has taken its turn being inside and outside of the meta, just like every other profession. It’s a revolving door. No class stays on top forever. Fretting about this is like fretting about the sun going down. It’s the way things go. And if everyone re-rolled a profession every time something dished out more DPS than their currently played class, everyone would have every profession at level 80 in full ascended and geared for raids.

It’s a gigantic investment to raid, both temporally and monetarily. Players can’t just immediately swap from one profession to another just because the wind blows a different direction.

Even swapping your ascended armor between classes of the same tier can be difficult. Engineers wear Viper’s, Rangers wear Magi, and Thieves wear Berserker. I am not sure if you’re the type of player that just has multiple sets of ascended gear just laying around, but I figure the average player values the investment to make full Viper’s gear a lot more than to just drop their profession the moment it stops dealing top DPS.

This is only further compounded by the fact that if you’re not raiding with your engineer, that gear is ultimately useless. Power is substantially stronger than condi in dungeons.

Now I’m not aware of what guild you’re in or what its internal culture is like, but my guild doesn’t discriminate players by what class they bring but by how well they know the fight. If DPS is lacking adjustments can be made, but hitting enrage timers is 99% of the time a mechanics issue and not a comp issue. Besides, it takes a particular kind of asswipe to cut members out of a static raid group just because the meta changed. If that’s really the pressure you’re facing, I suggest you find a better guild.

These raid bosses aren’t tested or designed for a single comp or setup. Every boss to date has been killed with every profession in attendance. This content is tested by players under a pretty rigorous examination with no bias or favoritism to any particular meta. Both wings were designed with a completely separate balance patch in mind.

Dahkeus.8243:

Krag.6210:

Dahkeus.8243:

The engi will have to nail a strong rotation with an enemy that doesn’t walk out of fire fields to get around 26k, whereas the thief just autoattacks and dodges a bit to hit 31k, you’re talking about a 16+% difference in damage that only gets greater when mechanics or user error cause the engi dps to suffer a lot more.

I hope you’re not basing your entire observation on unrealistic numbers.

I’m basing my observations on the relative difference that can be seen through unrealistic numbers. Sure, you won’t hit 30k due to lack of buffs, boss movement, etc., but that doesn’t really matter since DPS is lowered for both engi and thief when those boons are missing.

And as I stated, the less ideal your encounter is, the farther engi falls from the thief’s numbers since they rely a lot more on pulling off an actual rotation.

You say this like people weren’t easily finishing the raid wings with engineers prior to thief buffs.

Just run whatever class you want to. This thread is nonsense.

insanemaniac.2456:

Phineas Poe.3018:

If I’m forming a raid group and someone wants to play engi, and I knew they were competent with it, I’d let then play engi.

When discussing raid roles it should come down to whatever class people feel most comfortable with, and not just what is top tier. That’s what makes smooth fights.

i dont think thats the issue here. i think the issue is that there isnt much point in creating an engi just to have it to fit into a group on the chance that some group is looking for an engi, because a group wont be looking for an engi, theyll be looking unspecifically for a condi or maybe a dps. and the other ones are easier to learn.

multiclassing is a thing. but for multiclassers to play the class, the class has to bring something unique that other classes cant cover. without slick shoes, its slim pickins.

Are you seriously implying that Slick Shoes was really the contributing factor of whether or not someone would roll engineer? Jfc LOL

First of all, there’s far more to this game than raids. Second of all, the engineer is a viable class in every aspect of the game, including PvP and WvW. If that isn’t motivation enough to make one then nothing will be.

My guild has eight-manned raid bosses and has defeated raid bosses with every single profession in attendance. Stop complaining about who does maximum DPS and just get good.

No one wipes on Gorseval because you took an engineer over an elementalist or a thief. You’re wiping on Gorseval because your raid group sucks.

If I’m forming a raid group and someone wants to play engi, and I knew they were competent with it, I’d let then play engi.

When discussing raid roles it should come down to whatever class people feel most comfortable with, and not just what is top tier. That’s what makes smooth fights.

People are eight-manning raid content. If anyone thinks a few Ks in DPS makes engi no longer worth bringing you need to polish your mechanics.

If you really think engi only offers Slick Shoes for raids, maybe you need to rethink your DPS rotations. Our damage is no longer top tier but it’s still objectively good and worth bringing.

Slick Shoes was way too powerful a CC skill that it could shred break bars on its own. If you think they did this just for PvP you’re delusional. No one class should be able to handle all CC duties.

Furajir.3815:

Phineas Poe.3018:

Spartacus.3192:

Phineas Poe.3018:

Just going to drop in here that I felt the nerfs were pretty rough until I swapped from Paladin’s to Mender’s.

Now it feels just like before, and without any real significant impacts to damage.

I played with menders a couple weeks ago and felt i lost way too much damage

Versus Paladin’s? It’s the same amount of power. You’re just offsetting some precision for healing power.

aka a big loss of damage

Not really. 50% crit rate with Elixir B is plenty enough, especially when you can outlast 1v2s just like before.

But hey, run whatever you want.

Spartacus.3192:

Phineas Poe.3018:

Just going to drop in here that I felt the nerfs were pretty rough until I swapped from Paladin’s to Mender’s.

Now it feels just like before, and without any real significant impacts to damage.

I played with menders a couple weeks ago and felt i lost way too much damage

Versus Paladin’s? It’s the same amount of power. You’re just offsetting some precision for healing power.

Just going to drop in here that I felt the nerfs were pretty rough until I swapped from Paladin’s to Mender’s.

Now it feels just like before, and without any real significant impacts to damage.

After they fix bugs, I think scrapper will still be our best build in PvP. It’s just Blast Gyro + Final Salvo now instead of Slick Shoes.

Until Final Salvo is fixed, though, I’m just going to mess around with the new amulets and try non-scrapper condi again.