Guild Wars 2

amiable.4823:

Phineas Poe.3018:

amiable.4823:

your crits are much weaker than someone in bezerkers.

25%, to be exact.

It amuses me that you call this “useless theorycrafting” even though JohnDied tested out the stuff I’ve posted and others and agrees that the FT is way better than you guys are bantering about.

You can see peoples’ minds change over the course of just a couple pages.

Fact is: use it or don’t. I’m just offering an alternative way to play the game that actually works and doesn’t have anything to do with the Grenade Kit.

Peace.

Full zerkers gear increases crit damage by 50% not counting runes and sigils. If you are having fun, good on you, but a novice picking up this thread should be made aware of the relatively serious shortcomings of what you are suggesting vis-a-vis other alternative builds.

I guess we can’t have peace, then.

You got me there. It was a misreading on my part. With Berserker armor and jewelry (with slotted ruby orbs) it’s a total of 48% critical damage. I will admit I made a mistake there. I’d blame that I hadn’t yet had my morning coffee, but that’s neither here nor there.

Tested on a Mists heavy golem, with no traits, the Flamethrower hits for about 100 damage per strike—and crits for 150—with Soldier’s trinket. With the 48% increase, that would be about 225 damage instead. If you crit every strike (x10) that would mean you would dish out 2250 damage per Flame Jet with Berserker’s and 1500 with Soldier’s. I’m sure this math is wrong somewhere here and you’re free to correct it, but the point is that there is a difference.

Not going to argue that Berserker’s doesn’t dish out better damage because it does; my argument is that (1) you don’t need to gear as a “glass cannon” to get good DPS out of the Flamethrower and (2) it is not a melee kit. Between the FT, EG, and your weapon, you have more than plenty CC to keep whatever your target is at range.

Your refusal to respond to these points is why I don’t see the point in making a YouTube video about this. Just look over the course of this thread; when one misconception about the Flamethrower is corrected, simply another one replaces it. If it isn’t that the Flamethrower dishes garbage damage (which it doesn’t) it’s that it’s a melee kit (which it’s not) and requires Berserker’s to be a good DPS weapon (which it doesn’t).

I can’t win with you people, but I did want to admit that I was incorrect in my previous statement. So that’s that.

amiable.4823:

your crits are much weaker than someone in bezerkers.

25%, to be exact.

It amuses me that you call this “useless theorycrafting” even though JohnDied tested out the stuff I’ve posted and others and agrees that the FT is way better than you guys are bantering about.

You can see peoples’ minds change over the course of just a couple pages.

Fact is: use it or don’t. I’m just offering an alternative way to play the game that actually works and doesn’t have anything to do with the Grenade Kit.

Peace.

amiable.4823:

So you gain about 130 dps at the expense of having to be in melee range in a glass cannon spec, with a buggy cone that often doesn’t properly connect?

This is where I have to re-iterate: the Flamethrower is not a melee kit. 450 range is not “melee.” 100-150 range is melee, which is where the Tool Kit is used.

Before this patch it was best used at its maximum range, which is well outside the danger of melee swings. The reason for that is because Flame Blast couldn’t be detonated—it did it on its own at 600 range. With a 240 blast radius, if you’re standing 450 Range from your target, Flame Blast will clip through the target (for about 1-2K damage) and then detonate for an additional 3-4K damage every 4.5 seconds.

You guys are acting like Flame Blast is just now a part of the rotation but it always was, and it was very easy to make it work. Solo-play I always just used it in conjunction with the Rifle’s Net Shot.

And what’s this about “glass cannon?” I wear Knight’s/Soldier’s with Emerald jewelry in group play and I still get great damage out of the kit. Because regardless of what gear I’m wearing I still get 20-25 Might stacks and help sustain the group’s Fury stack.

daydream.2938:

2. The #2 flame blast really should be changed into a blast finisher. Compare it to thief shortbow #2 cluster arrow, which is a spammable blast finisher.

Used in conjunction with the Elixir Gun’s Super Elixir, I personally would love the idea of providing Retaliation every 4-5 seconds with my Flame Blast. This is something that Hammerdins have access to already with Symbol + Mighty Blow, so it couldn’t be considered overpowered.

Can also provide Area Might with Napalm. Great concept.

Nice work, Seetoo. I’d quote your post for credit but my browser doesn’t like quoting big posts on this forum.

amiable.4823:

Phineas Poe.3018:

Is there something I’m missing here? .

Why yes, yes there is. It’s called scaling coefficients.

FT1 = 1.50 (over 10 hits) .15 per hit
Rifle 1 = .599 scaling per hit

This means that rifles ramp up 3-4 times faster than Flame throwers per point of power.

I don’t understand where you’re coming from here. Seems to me Flame Jet scales better with Power than Hip Shot: 1.5 is a larger multiplier than .599; but because it’s a channeled attack, even for the higher coefficient, Hip Shot comes out on top simply because you get off 3 shots in the span of one Flame Jet.

Even if that’s true, there is a negligible difference between the two that is likely to be canceled out anyway by the higher skill damage of Flame Jet. I’m not sure what you mean by the Rifle “ramping up” or where you get the “3-4 times faster” figure. If you could be more direct about that I’d appreciate it. Simply trying to get to the truth of the matter here.

SilverWF.4789:

And way more cleare – you didn’t know anything about Guardians.

Clearly I just put in my signature that I have a level 80 Guardian for no reason.

SilverWF.4789:

Obviously you ignored my post about stuff with cooldown mechanics.

Obviously I ignored what? Incendiary Powder applies a 2-second Burn with a 3-second cooldown. Flame Jet applies a 1-second Burn. The glorious thing about Burning damage is that the Condition stacks by duration. Meaning the two will work in concert with one another, providing you 100% upkeep of Burning. I tested this out myself last night, and you’re welcome to do the same in Heart of the Mists (LA dummies are immune to Conditions).

That’s a flat 10% damage increase. All the time. Period. The end.

You don’t even need Napalm Specialist.

amiable.4823:

Phineas Poe.3018:

amiable.4823:

Considering I could put out as much damage with rifle 1 at far less risk and from much greater range, no.

From much greater range? So you’re using the auto attack and nothing else? Not really great use of the Rifle in my opinion.

That’s the point, I can achieve the same DPS from range using Rifle 1 than I can using the FT kit. I can do much more damage (especially burst) at close range with a rifle kit than a FT.

Hip Shot has a 3/4 of a second Activation time. Flame Jet has 2 1/2 second Activation time. That means for every Flame Jet you should be able to fire about three Hip Shots in the same time.

Over 15 seconds, that means you’ll fire Hip Shot around 18 times. Comparatively, in a 15 second span you would fire 6 Flame Jets. You can test this figure yourself on the Lion’s Arch target dummies.

Looking at each skill, Hip Shot fires for 251 damage. In the time to make a single Flame Jet, you would dish out 753 damage.

But Flame Jet channels 490 direct damage and 328 Burning damage. That’s 818 total damage.

Is there something I’m missing here? Seems to me that Flame Jet does more. And then you have to factor in skills like Juggernaut, Mixed Elixirs, and now Incendiary Powder that additionally add damage to the Flamethrower.

The Rifle only has Rifle Mod, which only adds 10%. 7 stacks of Might and a flat 25% damage increase (so long as the target is burning) seems like Hip Shot DOES NOT do more damage than Flame Jet. If there’s something wrong with what I’m doing here that would prove otherwise, please let me know.

Now…

For burst potential, obviously that’s where the Rifle shines. Between Jump Shot, Blunderbuss, and Overcharged Shot, you’re going to put out a lot more damage than the Flamethrower does with Flame Blast and spamming Flame Jet. Which is why before sigils worked with kits I commonly integrated the Rifle into my FT/EG build, going:

Jump Shot -> Blunderbuss -> Overcharged Shot -> Net Shot -> Flame Blast

When I originally posted the FT/EG build in October on GW2Guru I said standing there derping with Flame Jet was a mistake. And it was. Because swapping to the Rifle or otherwise was better.

But I don’t think that’s any longer the case, just like how I no longer use my Rifle and opt for dual pistols having both Sigil of Strength and Bloodlust.

amiable.4823:

Considering I could put out as much damage with rifle 1 at far less risk and from much greater range, no.

From much greater range? So you’re using the auto attack and nothing else? Not really great use of the Rifle in my opinion.

SilverWF.4789:

3. Last tick of the FJ cause burn for all targets, ok. By ONE second! But FJ lasts for 2,25 sec. So will have +10% damage boost only for half-time. In the another words they buff FT damage only by 5%.

This can be perfectly rectified in solo-play by traiting 10/30/0/20/10 going for Incendiary Powder. Tried it myself last night. The loss of Energy Conversion Matrix kind of sucks, but I would have to sustain 10 different buffs at once (i.e., all of them) to match the damage increase from Burning.

I still content that this is totally unnecessary in groups. Between you and a Guardian burning for every fifth attack this is seriously not an issue.

SilverWF.4789:

You hitting 3 targets under retaliation. If you have good power, especially under 25 Might, Retal will hits you for 400-450 per hit!
So, 5 hits/sec multiple by 3 equal 15. multiple it by 400 equal 6k. Add 2nd second of the Flame Jet – another 6k
You will hit yourself for the TWELVE THOUSANDS damage while your targets will recieve only 4k (5k with crits!) each.

So are we finally coming to a consensus that the Flamethrower is actually a good kit so long as you actually gear properly for it?

Kardiamond.6952:

I think every aspect of the game is really important.

I agree, but it shouldn’t be the basis for which an Engineer’s skill level is evaluated by.

SilverWF.4789:

And if you learn to read posts you will stop posting your lol-PVE advices to the WvWer.

I find it kind of hysterical that you lord over us that you play a lot of WvW. It’s easily the most mindless aspect of the entire game.

JohnDied.3476:

In fact, if they are shrewd and experienced, a flamethrower engineer can do top notch damage. They just have to do all this stupid bullkitten to do it.

Do what? Swap to Med Kit every 10 seconds for Fury/Might?

Not that hard. Fights tend to develop a rhythm that becomes easy to settle into.

Swap to Elixir Gun for Kit Refinement -> Flamethrower -> Swap to Med Kit during Flame Jet -> Go back to Flamethrower until Super Elixir disappears -> Swap to Elixir Gun for second Super Elixir -> Flamethrower -> Swap to Med Kit during flame Jet -> Go back to Flamethrower until second Super Elixir disappears -> Swap to Elixir Gun for Kit Refinement.

Rinse and repeat.

If I need any extra health I’ll do direct heals with Med Kit before swapping back to Flamethrower. If I need any extra condition removal I’ll drop an Antidote. If that’s not enough I’ll skip the Flamethrower in my rotation and just sit in the Elixir Gun or fire my pistol for Projectile finishers to proc the 20% chance to remove conditions.

Even if I goof up, it’s not like my group will enter crushing defeat because I’m not standing there derping with the Flamethrower. Super Elixir always comes first and always. And I try to have Fury up as much as possible.

It sounds a lot more complicated than it actually is. Everything is conveniently on 10, 20 second cooldowns to where it’s easy to get used to how things work. You build a rotation. You get used to it. It becomes second nature.

How is this any different from any other multi-kit build for the Engineer? Especially if you’re like me and likes incorporating the best skills available at any time with each of your kits/rifle/pistol.

God forbid you try and play an Elementalist. Juggling cooldowns is literally all they do. At least the good ones.

SilverWF.4789:

Cyric.2854:

I loved omnom on ft to mitigate confussion and retalliation… Now I’m rerolling to a Guardian.

Fully agree with your whole post
And yes, I’ll do the same.

As someone that also has a decked out Guardian … the grass is always greener on the other side.

The Gates Assassin.9827:

Phineas Poe.3018:

What was the trait setup used in your evaluation? Did you use Juggernaut? How did you distribute your points in Alchemy and Tools? Did you use Mixed Elixirs?

And what are the raw numbers you’re comparing? What do you mean by “less damage?” Is this with Berserker’s? Is this with Rampager’s? Rubies? Or Emeralds?

What sigils? Did you use Bloodlust and Strength and stack for Power like you’re supposed to when using the Flamethrower?

How did you use it? Did you just spam Flame Jet? Or did you drop Napalm for the 10% increase when Burning?

Challenge accepted. Here’s my numbers IN GAME:

---

This test was done vs the Heavy Armor Golem in PvP. All damage numbers are with critical hits ONLY. It is also the average critical hit.

Flame Jet: 1.8k direct 800 condition 2.4k damage (2.5 seconds)

Flame Blast: 2.3k blast 1k trail 3.3k damage (.5 seconds at melee range)

Napalm: 700 condition 700 damage (1 second)

Max damage: 4k DPS.

Average Damage: 2.4k per 2 seconds

My set up:

Juggernaut and HGH (of course).
Elixir B H and U. Before every test I threw down and drank every elixir, giving me 17 might.
Sigil was of the Elementalist That gave me power and condition damage.
Carrion Amulet Giving power and condition damage

---

You mentioned in your post that Flamethrower is about power. So here’s the power version of this. This is using Scholars sigil and berzerkers amulet:

Flame Jet: 3.2k direct 500 condition 3.7k damage (2.5 seconds)

Flame Blast: 3.3k blast 1.4k trail 4.7k damage (.5 seconds at melee range)

Napalm: 500 condition 500 damage (1 second)

Max damage: 5.2k DPS

Average damage: 3.7k -4k per 2 seconds

5.2k seems like a lot; however, here are the requirements:

1) They must be inside of Napalm
2) They must be hit by the trail of flame blast
3) They must be hit by the explosion of flame blast
4) You must get a critical with both the trail and explosion of flame blast

---

Here’s 100nades:

Jump Shot 4.3k direct 4.3k damage

Grenade Barrage(Kit refinement) 5.3k direct 5.3k damage

Grenade Barrage(Normal) 1.2k * 8 direct 9.6k damage

Static Discharge 1k direct 1k damage

Grenade 700 * 3 direct 2.1k damage

Shrapnel Grenade 1.2k * 3 direct 3.6k damage

Freeze Grenade 1.2k * 3 direct 3.6k damage

Max damage: 20.2k damage

Average Damage: 2.1k-2.5k per second

Thank you for this. Excellent work.

tigirius.9014:

Sure we can use sigil damage but it hardly makes up for what they’ve taken, nowhere near the damage that grenades have lost in any sense.

I stopped using the Grenade Kit in October, so this does not affect me.

tigirius.9014:

2: does not work, try keeping a stack of 20 might at all times, you’ll be drinking potions like a lush at a family reunion.

I think you misinterpreted my statement. I said at 25 Might stacks the damage is quite ridiculous, not that I sustain 25 stacks of Might. I sustain 15 stack of Might 24/7 while gladly receiving buffs through food and group play that will often push it over 20 and sometimes 25. Even at 15 stacks of Might the Flamethrower’s damage is great. It’s not the best in the game by any measure, but I contribute while additionally providing great control and condition removal.

tigirius.9014:

We need less regen more direct heals and we need them to actually scale with our +healing otherwise you might as well call it something other then support.

Not sure what you mean by this. The Med Kit is our “direct” healing kit. If you want that, use that. The Healing Turret provides some of this through Regenerating Mist + Detonate for an area Heal (Water field + Blast combo), but it is mostly used for Perma Regen which can be stacked with dual Super Elixirs.

tigirius.9014:

4: They did make flame blast easier to use, I’ll give you that one. However how many skills like this one don’t cause burning on an engineer that specializes in explosions and fiery blasts? We’re supposed to take it for granted that nothing we do no matter how hot or fiery or explosive will cause burning, that we’re supposed to trait into it and it have a longer cooldown then the effect (without runes of course). Like i said before, physics.

Flame Jet offers burning. It’s a 1-second Burn, but with condition duration food it’s closer to 2. Never mind the fact that any time you’re with a Guardian or Elementalist, you guys always take turns applying Burn anyway. This is not an issue other than solo-play.

tigirius.9014:

5: The omnom berry nerf is just the limit imo. They should not be playing around with food buffs, engineers had to use those more then any other class to actually keep ourselves alive because of the crappy way this class has been handled since launch.

I seriously don’t have this problem.

google.3709:

keep in mind that you would have to go to med kit to get Altruism to work and this will mess up FT’s stacking

You can swap to the Med Kit while Flame Jet is channeling. I just tested to see if you lost any Might stacks in the process. I waited until I was at 7, swapped to Med Kit, and was still at 10 stacks with the Flamethrower while channeling my next Flame Jet.

No loss in DPS.

If they consider this a bug and “fix” this at any point, that’s fine. I would just re-order my kit rotation to Flamethrower → EG (Super Elixir) → Med Kit (Altruism) → Flamethrower. This is practically what I do already.

SilverWF.4789:

1. It must be worked like it working now since release, coz this is obvious – sigils must works with kits! So, for me, it was just bug fis, not buff.
2. So, where is 25 stacks of Might anyway?
3. Before patch it have healing nearly 5 HP/sec. So, this was bug fix too, not buff. How long are you playing Engi?
4. Full potency? It have “full potency” with ANY weapon, coz 2 sec cooldown, wow. And for FT it mostly useless coz it’s CD sharing with Flame sigil – it way more useful.
Yes, my Engi using P/P or P/S weapons. Dislike rifles since point 1 fix.
5’n’6 So, now, try to find really big and famous WvW guild and take part in everyday mass WvW fights for month or so
Cya.

1. Bug fix or not, it buffed our damage. Meaning: the class has been improved.

2. 10 stacks of Might is not very hard to get through group buffs and food. Ghost Pepper Poppers give 5-second Might buffs with no internal cooldown with a 40% chance on crit during daytime. But with the 10% damage increase to Flame Jet to burning targets, I’ll probably start eating condition duration food. Depends on how that works out.

3. Considering it’s my first class and I bought the game Day One … quite a while. The only class I’ve dedicated a lot of time to beside my Engi is my Guardian, which I mostly play only when I’m bored of my Engineer. I just wasn’t aware that there was a bug to Healing Turret though; mostly because I don’t use it since I have Rune of Altruism and prefer swapping to Med Kit for proc. I was just thinking of an alternate route one could take with the FT/EG build. Why so serious?

4. Dude, are you just splitting hairs now? The point is that Strength works great with the Flamethrower. I’m sure it works well with other options.

5. Why? WvW is just one aspect of the game and I don’t care to center my experience around it. You’re the one who dragged in into the conversation in the first place, not me. Point is: I play on a top-tier WvW server and deal with top-tier players. Before I was SoR I was on Jade Quarry. Before that I was on Isle of Janthir. I have enough experience with WvW to draw on, thanks.

SilverWF.4789:

Phineas Poe.3018, I undersand, you are “Always NO!” trollkind.

I don’t understand what this means.

SilverWF.4789:

1. It must worked from the release, coz it’s obvious things.
2. Lol, stop dreaming, theorycrafter. I’ve tryed Sup Sigil of Strenght with the Juggernaut trait and, you kow… it’s impossible to stack more than 10-12 stacks of Might. Dreamer ^^
3. It was a obvious bug – regen from HT healed by… 5 (FIVE!) HP! Lol! EG#5 still useless.
4. Wow, you will use FT only for #2? Wanna see that
5. Even with 5 elems and guards FT dps still too low. And if remeber about retaliation and about Omnomberry nerf – usinf FT is really dangerous.

Stop dreaming and login to game and come to the WvW at the high tiers. You will be wondered about Engineer “strengh”, I promise.

1. Let me be clearer—you could use Sigil of Bloodlust and then swap to your Flamethrower, but Sigil of Bloodlust would not increase in stacks off kills used with bundles like Engi kits. And I don’t think I need to tell you what 10% extra crit damage from my pistols does to my Flamethrower.

2. I’m not theorycrafting.

Juggernaut gives 7 stacks of Might.
Sigil of Strength gives 5 stacks of Might.
Rune of Altruism gives 3 stacks of Might.

That’s a flat 15 stack of Might I can keep up all the time that can be further re-enforced through food and group buffs. I don’t usually bother trying to hit 25 all by myself because in group situations that’s usually already done for me. I just make sure I have at least 15 on me by swapping to Rune of Altruism which grants me 3 stacks of Might and Fury for my entire group.

3. Not sure what you’re talking about with Healing Turret. I just tested dropping it and picking it back up and gave me 165 health/second with Zerker/Ruby gear.

4. Don’t recall saying I “only use FT” for any one skill. I use Flame Jet fairly often because it’s the easiest method to getting full potency from Sigil of Strength, but it’s not beyond me to use the other 4 skills on the bar as often as they come up/are as needed.

5. I’m not scared.

6. I’m not sure what you mean by “higher tiers.” I play on Sanctum of Rall. We’re second only to Jade Quarry at the moment.

Kontrolle.3514:

what the f…? Sry i rather continue playing my alts.
I dont care why they overnerfed this class so much in every patch but this time theyve gone to far. They complete took away any reliable way to remove conditions.
I used FT/E-Gun in my build and this patch literally destroyed it. Tried it today, its unplayable now.

Err, what? Super Elixir has a 10-second duration. It has an untraited 20-second cooldown, the same as the Kit Refinement version.

1. Swap to the Elixir Gun for Super Elixir (Kit Refinement Proc)—10 second duration
2. Swap back to the Flamethrower
3. Swap to the Elixir Gun for Super Elixir (#5 skill)—10 second duration
4. Swap back to the Flamethrower

Rinse and repeat. 100% upkeep of Super Elixir’s Light field. If you time it properly it’s just as effective as it always was.

Let me reiterate: Super Elixirs viability in 100% upkeep has been left literally unaffected, and actually got buffed to be even stronger.

Try it yourself.

Pannonica.5378:

I am beginning to wonder if ANet have this unwritten rule somewhere that they are not allowed to buff the engineer.

Except the Flamethrower got a flat 10% damage increase to burning targets and can now detonate Flame Blast as a PBAoE?

Mif.3471:

Furthermore they seem to have no problem nerfing Engineers “to the ground” despite their stated goal of small adjustments to balance (Exhibit A: Grenades 30% nerf as a first step).

And yet Grenade Kit is still arguably the best sustained AoE DPS in the entire game. From 1200 range. Which synergizes perfectly fine with the Elixir Gun that offers 100% upkeep of a Light field for condition removal with Kit Refinement.

Couldn’t disagree more.

• They’ve made it to where sigils and weapon damage accumulate into kit damage.
• They’ve changed the Flamethrower from a tank kit into a Might-stacking damage dealing kit (which can really get quite ridiculous with 25 Might and 25 Bloodlust).
• They’ve increased the Healing Power coefficient for Healing Turret and now Super Elixir (the previous “nerf” was actually a fix).
• They’ve made Flame Blast much easier to use as PBAoE DPS
• Flame Jet now gets a flat 10% damage increase any time your target is burning (i.e., 100% of the time if you’re with an Ele and Guard).

Some people may be unhappy, but the FT/EG build has simply gotten stronger month by month. It’s now gotten to the point where I may just drop Kit Refinement and run 10-20 points in Inventions since Super Elixir works better with Cleric’s/Healing Power now.

The Gates Assassin.9827:

3) This is inferior in damage to Bomb and Grenade kit. This is a low skill and less damage version of those two kits. It really shouldn’t be a kit for people who can’t handle harder kits. Make it what it really should be: Point defense. Give skill 2 less damage and a knock back. Making this a mid range damage kit makes it inferior to other damage kits.

What was the trait setup used in your evaluation? Did you use Juggernaut? How did you distribute your points in Alchemy and Tools? Did you use Mixed Elixirs?

And what are the raw numbers you’re comparing? What do you mean by “less damage?” Is this with Berserker’s? Is this with Rampager’s? Rubies? Or Emeralds?

What sigils? Did you use Bloodlust and Strength and stack for Power like you’re supposed to when using the Flamethrower?

How did you use it? Did you just spam Flame Jet? Or did you drop Napalm for the 10% increase when Burning?

I main the FT/EG and have been for over four months now. And one thing has always proven relatively clear to me: the FT is not a kit you can just “test out” one afternoon. It took me weeks to really get the hang of it and get the right trait setup. You can’t just swap your gearing from the Grenade Kit and think you’re getting 1:1 out of it. I mean, you shouldn’t be, since the Grenade Kit requires stacking of both Condition Damage and Power—but the Flamethrower is raw Power.

More importantly, I always see people throw around how the Flamethrower does less damage, but is that single-target? AoE? Sustained? Burst? What number values are we talking about here?

You seem to be genuinely interested in testing the FT’s viability post patch, but you were awfully vague in your analysis. I’ll always agree that the Grenade Kit is a more powerful damage dealing kit than the Flamethrower is, but the extent to which it is never seems to crop up in conversation.

It’s not a night and day difference. With tankier survivability. With better control. And for how painfully obnoxious it is playing the Grenade Kit, I don’t think the minuscule—yes minuscule—difference in damage output is worth it.

I haven’t looked back in over 4 months now.

Naioby.3705:

secondly, it has 10 secs of might, but it will only give you 1 stack of might

Errr … no?

It has a 30% chance to give you 10 seconds of Might. It has a 2-second internal cooldown.

Because the Flame Jet crits often, that means you will often have 5 stacks of Might.

And I never said anything about “shooting a rifle or pistol.” The only time I mentioned weapons in this entire thread is the usefulness of using two sigils with dual pistols. Never said a thing about actually using them.

I’m indifferent about the Kit Refinement nerf.

With the FT/EG build, I never cared for the FT’s KR proc. Just going to have to be a little more mindful when I swap to my Med Kit is all.

With Soldiers + Emerald gear I get 2000-3000 on average.

With Zerkers + Ruby gear I get 3500-4000+ no problem. With a full Vulnerability stack it’s not rare to see 5000 damage.

Naioby.3705:

and please don’t continue it’s useless u know its a bug and u know I stated that it should be fixed come on, move on. Next question…

Right, which is why I ended up just removing it from the post.

Naioby.3705:

Ok maybe it’s not inexperience but lack of analysis from your side. Why would I go unbuffed for a dungeon run? and unbuffed with a FT? I’m not that nuts hahaha.

I never said you should go into anything unbuffed.

You can post photographs over how much damage your Incendiary Ammo toolbelt skill does, but the fact of the matter is that the majority of damage you dish out with your Flamethrower is modified by Power, not Condition Damage. That’s why I said that using Sigil of Strength and Sigil of Bloodlust is a better method for stat allocation. I never said anything about walking into dungeons naked.

Naioby.3705:

and lets not forget our combo field napalm which of course inflicts burn.

And let’s not forget out combo field Napalm which of course grants Area Might on a Blast finisher which buffs the group’s damage as a whole a lot more than some paltry Burn damage.

Naioby.3705:

I’m stacking more burning duration that anything you would ever do by just shooting a rifle or a pistol

Who said anything about shooting a rifle or pistol?

You give me a headache.

Naioby.3705:

For the burning per tick, I wanted to show the tag to show how non-realistic is this skill, which “should” provide burn per tick and this is my personal point of view, some ppl likes this idea and some ppl doesn’t. Another way around would be “1 burn for any of the 10 hits” at least this would sound more realistic and at the same time ppl won’t be saying “it’s OP”.

It wouldn’t be OP, considering that’s exactly what Drake’s Breath does for the Elementalist. If we’re to have a conversation about changing it, I don’t see the problem; I just concurrently don’t see a problem with how it works right now, either.

Naioby.3705:

Talking about power based kit vs condition, we are talking about a Flamethrower that spreads fire, and fire has a burning condition dmg, so what are you talking about? this is a mix between 2 different types of dmg, power + condition.

Correction: We are talking about a Flamethrower that spreads fire for, unbuffed, 490 direct damage over 10 attacks and 328 Burning damage. We are also taking about a Flamethrower that shoots a ball of napalm for 244 direct damage and a blast of 569 direct damage.

Between spamming Flame Jet and Flame Blast, the overwhelming majority of your damage will be based not on Condition Damage but Power and Precision. “Call it inexperience” but in my mind it seems pretty obvious the Engineer dual wielding pistols is going to get a lot more out of their Flamethrower stacking Power and Might over Condition Damage and Might, especially if you’re grouped with any other class that also deals Burn damage consistently (i.e., Guardian or Elementalist).

Naioby.3705:

Oh and if you say, why the hell would I choose that kit refinement? its only 180 radius!, and then I would say, “condition removal every 10 secs”, then you would say, but what about 409? I would say, yeah son, that’s a nice cleaner for your toilet, but I get my kit refinement + med kit’s “Drop Antidote” and I’m ready to go, while at the same time using traits for something else. Where’s the inexperience, son? maybe u just want me to fix my post a lil bit so that you can understand it better?, but… to be honest you are the only one that misunderstood my point. You wanna know more about FT, and combinations with elixirs etc? ask me… bet u still think u cannot pull any dmg out of Elixir S + FT, right? (I’m starting this discussion because I have many tricks up my sleeve)

Feel free to click the link in my signature. I began running the FT/EG build back in October when everyone was still shoving the Grenade Kit down my throat, saying it’s the only viable way to play the class.

But please, tell me more about what I would say.

No thanks. Now that sigils and weapon damage work with our kits, we’re better off wielding dual pistols and having our kits remain as bundles to take advantage of that.

I do, however, expect to see more actual weapons introduced into Guild Wars 2 for the Engineer in future content additions.

tigirius.9014:

The napalm attack doesn’t explode on impact and doesn’t burn and has a longer range then the #1 attack (weird i know) the .5 second smoke vent doesn’t act like it should (it should create a combo field for blindness for as long as the black powder thief ability does).

Napalm is our #4 skill. I assume you’re talking about Flame Blast.

1. Flame Blast does not explode on impact because it isn’t supposed to. It goes to 600 range and explodes. There are many attacks that work like this across all professions. If it exploded on impact then it would defeat its purpose of “rolling through targets.” It would explode on the first target it hit, limiting its potential as an AoE attack. I like how it works right now and would rather it not be changed.

2. While I’m not against the idea of Vent Smoke being a Smoke Field, the Engineer already has 3 available options to do that: Toss Elixir U, Smoke Screen, and Smoke Bomb. Additionally, just because a skill applies Blind that doesn’t mean it needs to apply a Field.

There are, by my count, 48 skills in Guild Wars 2 across all professions that apply Blind. Only 7 of them apply a Smoke Field; we have 3 of them.

Naioby.3705:

It has been centuries and yet we are still bugged having a Flamethrower that misses when targeting a foe, and also, each hit[b] from [b]FLAME JET (FT first skill) SHOULD grant BURN, otherwise where is the logic on tossing fire without getting burn? is this a supersoaker gun?

I find this reaction odd, because I always assumed that the Flamethrower was a Power-based kit and not a Condition-based kit. I always dropped Napalm for its Combo as a Fire Field; I couldn’t care less about how much damage it does or how much the Flamethrower’s Burn hurts.

Naioby.3705:

Read the skill’s tag info:
“Spray fire in a cone pattern while on the move, burning enemies on the final attack.”

This is working as intended. Flame Jet’s damage is accumulated through a 10-hit attack over the course of 2 seconds. On the tenth hit it procs a Burn condition.

This skill is working as intended.

google.3709:

Flame thrower used to be an amazing weapon if you had the chance to play beta, but after several updates, it became a broken kit, the only reason most people play it is because of the flashy animation and high hit count but otherwise, its a low damage kit with very unreliable targeting and it lacks utilities like most kits making it basacaly the a flashy animation and a knockback

It offers a Fire Field, an interrupt/knockback, and a PBAoE Blind. That’s more than plenty “utility” for a damage-dealing kit. If I need to provide support, I’ll use the Elixir Gun.

The reason the Flamethrower misses a lot is because it has a conical attack. It’s no different than the Guardian’s Cleansing Flame or the Elementalist’s Drake’s Breath.

If you’re running directly forward at or backing away from your target you will always hit it. If you stand still and let the auto aim take over you will always hit it. Where you run into trouble is strafing/turning. It’s not the skill effect so much as your latency; you have to lead your targets a little bit at times.

Seeing a bunch of missed attacks is not a bug. It’s inexperience with how it performs. Get used to its range and width and you’ll rarely miss your attacks.

I will admit it is a little buggy with certain structure objects, but these are rare situations.

Sepahbod.4653:

A lot of people still view Engineers as a gimped class. They are of course wrong.

A lot of that is based by what they’re told and not by what they’ve seen. I guess this kind of stuff differs from server to server and what kind of guild you’re in.

penatbater.4710:

I know eng’s can’t do a 10k dmg of a war’s 100b, but I’m pretty happy about my 2k/bomb damage output. I can’t reach the same might-stacking level on a grenadier-spec coz I don’t have runes of altruism yet (or 2/2/2 might duration runes, still thinking which one is better for fractals).

Altruism is popular for the Fury group buff. I think it works better with the Flamethrower than the Grenade Kit, too, as Juggernaut gives such a massive buff to your Might already.

If all you care about is stacking Might, I would do a 2/2/2 split for added duration. Eating peppers for Might on crit helps too.

I’ve never used that website or ever heard of anyone mentioning it until now.

Kodiak.3281:

You wouldn’t swap from Air to Water to Air even if you could.

And the point is that you can’t. The decision is already made for you. The Elementalist cannot freely swap between damage and support as well as the Engineer can. That is the Engineer’s strength.

And rather than being mediated by that flexibility, you even yourself admit that our condition removal skills are so good that they’re better than what anyone would ever need.

Imagine that.

Kodiak.3281:

They need/want your damage, not healing.

Who is they, and why are you speaking for them?

I’ve invested around 300 hours since August playing on my Engineer. Not once have I ever been denied invitation, dismissed from a group, or verbally berated for how I play it in group environments. In PvE. In sPvP. In WvW.

Never. Ever.

I’d continue entertaining this theorycraft conversation with you about how oh-so-much better the Elementalist is at everything the Engineer tries to be, but I know better than to continue wasting my time with this.

I came into this thread asserting that our damage is just fine. It seems that criticism has been for the most part silenced, so I’m going to exit on that note.

You can carry your love-obsession with the Elementalist to your grave for all I care. Enjoy the incoming nerf.

Kodiak.3281:

I can easily change to water mid Churning Earth and gain Frost Aura, clear off 2 conditions, add regen, and AOE heal everyone around me and immediately swap right into Air before done channeling the Churning Earth.

Yet you can’t switch from Air to Water back to Air as easily as I can switch from the Flamethrower to the Elixir Gun back to the Flamethrower—which was my point.

Saying you can switch from Earth to Water to Air easily is pretty deceptive and not what we were talking about.

Kodiak.3281:

The reality is that most dungeons and events in this game don’t even require that much condition removal. Most cases I don’t even bother specing into Cleansing Water because it’s a colossal waste for me and the group. I’d much rather share Auras and give out permanent Fury and Swiftness to my group instead on top of the 12-25 stacks of Might I’m almost giving them. Who really cares if you can remove 100 conditions when you only ever suffer from 1-2 tops?

This is kind of a stupid rebuttal. You’re basically deflecting the fact that the Engineer can sustain Super Elixir 100% of the time VERY EASILY, offering condition removal whenever anyone needs it. At any time.

Who cares if it’s “too much?” The point is that we can do it.

As for your Fury, Swiftness, and Might: Cool story bro. Too bad I can sustain 100% Vigor, Might, Swiftness, and Fury by myself through traits, Drop Stimulant, and Rune of Altruism.

Pizza.2346:

Phineas Poe.3018:

Engineers are way more than their Grenade Kit. I’ve been using the FT/EG build for months, and my damage output is just fine.

I’ve been using the Grenade build for months, and my damage output is much higher.

0.5s grenade VS 2.25s flame jet

I’m sure it is. With Rampager’s gear, with the Bleed stacking on top of spamming the #1 skill the Grenade Kit will outdamage the Flamethrower. I don’t recall ever arguing otherwise.

nakoda.4213:

actually it does discriminate, and I was put in my place the other day with this correction. tested it later to confirm, but FT#1 indeed only hits a max three targets per tick.

Fair enough; I guess my eyes have deceived me.

Kodiak.3281:

You’re also horribly misinformed about a D/D Ele. Since most D/D spec’s go so deep in the Water tree (20-30 points) there’s a lot of condition removal to be had (around 3-6 of which 3 are AOE).

Cleansing Wave also has an untraited 40-second cooldown. You toss around how many you have, but the fact of the matter is that Kit Refinement + Elixir Gun is arguably the best sustained condition removal in the entire game.

What matters is here is that you have to switch attunements to remove conditions. I can swap to the Elixir Gun in the middle of a Flame Jet attack and proc Super Elixir through Kit Refinement. I can lay down a Light field without dropping an inch of my DPS.

Can you do that with your Elementalist? Gee, no. You can’t. Enjoy that attunement swap cooldown. I can swap to the EG and Med Kit as needed to drop Light fields and buffs and swap back to the FT before the 2-second attack is even over.

Kodiak.3281:

when I gear similar to my Engineer (high tough) I can take the hits just the same

Except the Elementalist wears light armor and has the lowest tier health pool. You can wear P/V/T gear with Emerald jewelry on your Elementalist and pretend that you’re as survivable as the Engineer is, but the numbers don’t lie; you’re not.

Jarin Arenos.2736:

I’m glad that engineer can be functional in certain areas (spvp) in certain builds (bunker, control FT) with certain gear (full properly-statted exotics).

Maybe you misunderstood me, but I use the FT/EG build in every area of the game.

The learning curve for the Engineer is definitely harder than a Guardian or Warrior. But the skill ceiling similarly is far higher.

Kodiak.3281:

But, you know, whoopity doo…5k Flamethrower!

That was unnecessary. I’ve never come off here that our damage output is the best in the game. I’m just annoyed by people continuously arguing that our damage is worthless when it is, in fact, not.

One extra detail you’re really neglecting to mention here is that Lightning Whip only has a range of 300 to Flame Jet’s 450. It can also only hit a maximum of three targets; Flame Jet doesn’t discriminate.

Is a D/D Elementalist going to do more damage than me? Yeah, maybe. Are they as good at condition removal as Engineers are? Uh, no, they are not. Are they as good at control as Engineers are? Uh, no, they are not. Are they as survivable as Engineers are?

Uh, no, they are not.

Kodiak.3281:

People go on about “5k Flamethrower hits!” without acquiescing to the point it’s a 2.5s cast time in which with my Elementalist could attack 4.5 times each capable of doing 2k damage on crit (maximum of 8k total).

What skill would this be?

And I believe I illustrated already that it’s 10 hits over 2 seconds. I’m not ignoring anything.

Ferum Flamebender.5910:

What people think of us

Correction: what one person thinks of us.

Kodiak.3281:

Flamethrower is pretty much a “that’ll do” weapon. It’s not bad simply because with 30 points in Firearms for Juggernaut you get a very high crit rate combined with numerous stacks of Might for Power before you even take gear into consideration. However anyone trying to tell you it “excels” at anything is largely lying to you or doesn’t know better.

It certainly excels at being fun.

But you’re right—the Grenade Kit is probably a better offensive option. Thankfully damage isn’t everything in this game. I laugh hysterically at Grenade Kit Engineers in sPvP that get torn apart by my Flamethrower and Rifle.

Jarin Arenos.2736:

Flame Jet Area/damage: Sure, so FT can outdamage grenades if you have 4+ enemies spread out in a line. Against the common 1-2 you get in normal play, this optimal will almost never come up. I played FT/EG stubbornly from 30-70, trawling the forum for play tips and gear advice, then swapped to untalanted grenades, and the utility and damage was still depressingly better. Where I had to at least expend some effort to kill a single elite before, I could now take 2-3.

I cannot comment on how the Flamethrower worked from level 30-70. I used the Bomb Kit like most others because the Grenade Kit and the Flamethrower both require Master-level traits to be competitive options. I’m surprised you said that about the Grenade Kit though, because without Grenadier it’s really not worth using, damage-wise.

But we’re not talking about while leveling; my point was strictly about my experiences at level 80, with exotic Berserkers/Soldiers/Knights armor sets and exotic Ruby/Emerald sets. With the full capacity of trait setups that best complement each kit to the best of their abilities.

Jarin Arenos.2736:

Also, napalm is a kitten to actually land.

I assume you mean Flame Blast and not Napalm … and it is, until you get used to it. But are we here to talk about what the easiest build is or what the best build is?

Jarin Arenos.2736:

Control: Grenade’s blind is targetable, where the flamethrower’s will miss if the enemy isn’t sitting on your face. Knockback is nice, but it’s also required because kiting is the primary strategy as things take twice as long to die.

“Twice as long?”

With full Berserker’s and Ruby jewelry, my Flamethrower’s Flame Jet will hit for around 3K. As my Bloodlust/Might stacks build up, it will more consistently go over 4K. If I’m in a group with someone applying Vulnerability, it’s not uncommon to see 5K pop up like that photo I linked above.

While I take seriously the argument that the Grenade Kit’s damage is good—it’s not so good that it doubles that kind of output.

And you’re right; I misread the tool tip. It is radius, not diameter. I apologize. But it is still a larger area of effect.

Jarin Arenos.2736:

I don’t like engineer because I hate being forced to use grenades.

Why do you feel forced to use grenades? I stopped full-timing the Grenade Kit back in October. I have no issues in any area of the game wielding the Flamethrower or Elixir Gun.

Jarin Arenos.2736:

Better AOE

That’s debatable. The Flamethrower’s “Flame Jet” skill is a conical attack with 450 range. The Grenade Kit’s “Grenade” skill has a radius of 150. How is that better AoE? Flame Jet offers 3 times the area of effect. With an additional Burn condition.

Flame Blast offers around 1.5K damage (base) with a 240 blast radius. The only Grenade Kit skill that matches that is the … Freeze Grenade.

So where is this superior AoE damage?

You may have a point in saying that in terms of single-target DPS, the Grenade Kit is better. Pre-patch, I would have agreed with you. But I think it’s much more even now.

Jarin Arenos.2736:

better control

I’m not too sure about this either. The Grenade Kit offers a Blind and a 2-second Chill effect. The Flamethrower offers a Blind and a 400-distance Knockback. I’ll take the direct Knockback over a 2-second Chill effect, especially since it additionally works as a soft interrupt against enemies with the Stability buff.

Jarin Arenos.2736:

better survival

This is definitely not true. Juggernaut gives you a straight buff to Toughness. The only way I could agree with this is if you’re standing in the back throwing grenades at 1,200 range; but the Flamethrower’s Flame Jet has a range of 450—well outside melee range.

As for the other things you’ve said, I think a lot of that is perception. The Flamethrower constantly hits over 4K damage. Flame Jet strikes 10 attacks over 2 seconds, so a 4K Flame Jet is 2K DPS … with better survivability … with better control.

The photo I posted above is a Flame Jet for over 5,000 damage on a Champion mob. I’ll gladly link another in a dungeon or something if that’s better validation, but I took a shot of that crit in reaction to this thread—I work with what I have in limited time; and I was farming.

Phoenix.3416:

The problem with engineer is the best builds revolve around Crit and Grenades.

They recently nerfed engineer upgrade damage by a large amount due to adding sigils, which doesnt really buff an grenade engineer up much, the problem seems to be your weapon doesnt effect how powerful your kits are they seem to be fixed at damage levels.

Totally disagree. Wielding dual pistols with a Sigil of Strength and Sigil of Bloodlust puts our kit damage output through the roof.

Engineers are way more than their Grenade Kit. I’ve been using the FT/EG build for months, and my damage output is just fine.

Manticore Five.9867:

My statement was against fetishizing more buttons for the sake of more buttons.

Who cares?

Again, some people—like myself—enjoy complexity. I did level up and gear a Guardian alongside my Engineer, which is a far more simple class by comparison. And I got bored a lot of the time leveling it because my only change when getting to level 80 was generally what weapon I used. Though I’m not logged in to find the raw numbers, I’m sure that the hours spent on my Engineer compared to my Guardian is pretty staggering. The highest I’ve leveled a Warrior was into the early 20s. Never touched it again and deleted it in favor of playing another class.

Some people like the aesthetic that the Engineer has a variety of kits with buttons to press. I don’t see why you should be wasting your time crushing others’ fun. There’s a real honest question being asked in this statement that I think you need to address for yourself:

Choops.3710:

Can we have one post where someone says they enjoyed playing their engi without someone telling him that he’s wrong?

Can we? Some people actually like consistently pressing more than 1-5 when playing Guild Wars 2. Don’t really see the problem here.

Manticore Five.9867:

I love how “not pressing two buttons” is always the last refuge of the scoundrel. Does pressing five buttons for an inferior result make you a better player, or just inflate the ego? Does pointlessly swapping kits every five seconds suddenly make you more hardcore than a warrior pressing his signet of rage every 48(traited) and getting might/fury with their serving of swiftness?

And I find the Warrior dreadfully boring. I find the Engineer’s complexity a more stimulating experience. Is there something wrong with that?

Manticore Five.9867:

If one actually got a superior result by pushing nine buttons instead of 2, then one could point to the result and not have to mention the buttons, but every time… EVERY time someone breaks out the “push x buttons to win” conceit, they most curiously leave out what they accomplish with their more buttons.

I think it would be obvious that by pressing “more buttons” with kits we have more skills at our disposal; i.e., the Elixir Gun properly traited offers 3 party condition removals all in one utility slot.

More buttons = superior result.

tigirius.9014:

Okay yes I was a little confusing. Rifle is a terrible setup, they should have never had a netshot in the setup we needed a multishot ability like the longbow and the warrior rifle.

Ha, what!

The Warrior’s Rifle is a fun damage-dealing weapon, but I’ll prefer taking Net Shot’s snare and Overcharged Shot’s CC removal any day of the week.

tigirius.9014:

Second, all anyone has to do is compare the minor traits in the dps lines of all three adventurer classes to see how rangers and thieves have an elegance which means their dps abilities work together in harmony over multiple abilities and builds as well as multiple weapon types. That’s what I meant by elegance. Clear it up for everyone?

For example…?

P/V/T with Emerald is the standard set-up for FT builds. You’ll have a pretty good crit rate with high attack and 20K HP.

I would hesitate going full Zerkers outside of WvW and world map. Wear Ruby jewelry if you’re worried about your damage. But the Flamethrower is best used just outside of melee range, and you’re going to need to be able to take a hit or two. Even with Infused Precision and Invigorating Speed, you’re not going to be able to dodge everything.

darkace.8925:

When choosing traits from the Firearms line, I’m wondering if I’d get more mileage out of Knee Shot and Sitting Duck or any combination of Rifled Barrel, Hair Trigger, and Rifle Mod. If the former is the case, would you recommend throwing Precise Sights into the mix? Or is Vulnerability stacking not very cost-effective?

I always saw Precise Sights as more a Flamethrower-type trait. The problem is that Vulnerability only lasts 2-3 seconds unless a new stack is reapplied. The rate in which the Rifle shoots makes it difficult to really get much out of it. The Flamethrower on the other hand … Love it!

Go with Rifled Barrels or Hair Trigger for your first slot.