Guild Wars 2

Durzlla.6295:

They don’t do paltry damage, flame turret applies burning quickly and easily not to mention it attacks quickly, as for rifle turret… It deals decent damage pre overcharge (not -a ton- but a good amount) and then once overcharged it gains quickness and applies bleeding on every shot for 10s, that’s REALLY strong, it stacks up bleeding really easily.

You do realize that the Flamethrower’s Flame Jet does all of this, right? Perma burn + pretty good Bleed stacking, a knockback, and AoE blind all in one slot. The only thing that your turret setup has is the Smoke field, which….

Phineas Poe.3018:

Durzlla.6295:

Phineas Poe.3018:

For everything turrets do, there are just better options at the moment—except maybe Flame Turret’s Smoke field.

That’s all well and good but i don’t use my turrets to purposely interrupt people.

So what do you use them for? Damage?

The Rifle and Flame Turret do such paltry damage they’re hardly worth using beyond planning to destroy them for the Smoke field invis and quick knockdown.

Durzlla.6295:

Phineas Poe.3018:

For everything turrets do, there are just better options at the moment—except maybe Flame Turret’s Smoke field.

That’s all well and good but i don’t use my turrets to purposely interrupt people.

So what do you use them for? Damage?

The Rifle and Flame Turret do such paltry damage they’re hardly worth using beyond planning to destroy them for the Smoke field invis and quick knockdown.

Durzlla.6295:

Keep in mind I just plant myself down on a point, the only 2 turrets that are in the point circle are Rifle (that things expendable and useful for launching people of the point/ interrupting).

I think that’s all well and good until you realize that the Flamethrower’s Air Blast and a Rifle’s Overcharged Shot both interrupt/launch people without investing 20 points in Explosives, and on shorter cooldowns.

For everything turrets do, there are just better options at the moment—except maybe Flame Turret’s Smoke field.

This list is total wishful thinking, but I thought I’d participate anyway.

Flamethrower

• Flame Jet burns on first hit, not tenth
• Flame Blast is a Blast finisher
• Napalm has a wider AoE
• Smoke Vent is a Smoke field

Elixir Gun

• Tranquilizer Dart does 6 seconds of Bleeding
• Fumigate no longer applies Poison, Vulnerability; removes a boon with every tick. Still cures conditions on allies with every tick.
• Acid Bomb cures snare, immobilization
• Super Elixir is no longer a Light field; removes a condition with every tick.

Turrets

• Rifle/Rocket Turret damage modified by Engineer’s Power

General

• Deadly Mixture revamped; Napalm and Acid Bomb instead apply cripple
• Flamethrower damage increased by 20%
• All kits have their weapon damage increased from 969 to some arbitrary higher number that actually makes sense
• Leg Mods works with all kits
• Armor Mod applies 5 seconds of Retaliation (Cooldown: 15 seconds)
• Kit Refinement changed to a 30-point trait in Tools; global cooldown removed

Kit Refinement

• Flamethrower: Backdraft
• Tool Kit: Applies Ethereal field where standing
• Grenade Kit: Grenade Barrage
• Bomb Kit: Big Ol’ Bomb
• Elixir Gun: Converts 1 condition to boon for self and allies
• Med Kit: Applies Protection to self and allies (5 seconds)

Sorry if I misunderstood you; he mentioned my build so I was going off that and not my experiences while leveling. As I posted before, the Flamethrower doesn’t really shine until level 60 when you unlock Juggernaut, but I am glad to hear that so many people are leveling Engineer and enjoying the kit even before that point.

Then again, it’s also a lot stronger now than it was in September as a DPS option—given Juggernaut was used for Stability more than anything back then—so I guess some of what I’m saying may be outdated.

About the Tools tree: Definitely. Agreed. It becomes more attractive when you use the Tool Kit for Power Wrench, but the Grandmaster traits right now are quite frankly awful. Armor Mods needs to have its cooldown halved (at least) and Adrenal Implants is a great idea on paper until you realize you can get the same exact thing with only a 20-point investment that you’ve already recognized (Speedy Kits/Infused Precision + Invigorating Speed). I hope tomorrow’s patch will reinvent the tree as a multi-kit specialization, making Kit Refinement our Evasive Arcana.

Right now it feels like everybody just uses Kit Refinement + 30 points in their kit’s respective tree, which is probably not a healthy trait distribution. But that’s a conversation for another thread.

About gadgets: Utility Goggles is best used with Static Discharge for Vulnerability stacking. With Sitting Duck in the Firearms tree, the damage output is awesome. For Condition Damage, you’re probably not going to want to use it.

I would maybe look at something like Rocket Boots. It has a decently short toolbelt skill that applies burning damage, is a stunbreaker, and is our best escape option despite the self CC.

Mines are great, but they work better with Explosive-spec builds like the Bomb Kit—which is what I used near the tail-end when leveling.

I think if four (don’t forget Elixir F) of our five skills with the Elixir Gun cured conditions, that would be a bit ridiculous.

You do not throw Acid Bomb or Super Elixir. You shoot them.

Each utility elixir skill specifically says that you “drink” them. And each of their toolbelt skills specifically says that you “toss” them. Perhaps they should revise the writing so it simply says drink versus consume and toss versus throw, but Cleansing Formula 409 is working as intended.

Seras.5702:

Static Discharge is fairly strong when coupled with fast recharging toolbelts.

Agreed. But Healing Mist and Incendiary Ammo are not fast recharging toolbelt skills.

Seras.5702:

Speedy Kits is a great trait for open world travel.

Agreed. I used to run 20 points in Tools for that reason: Kit Refinement and Speedy Kits. But over time it became more obvious to me that it was much easier just reducing the point total to 15 for Inertial Converter and swapping out Kit Refinement for Speedy Kits and vice versa as needed.

You gain far more in damage with Energy Conversion Matrix (25 Alchemy) than you did in utility with 20 points in Tools. It wasn’t until Flame Jet’s 10% damage buff to burning targets that Incendiary Powder became the best method (thereby freeing up only 10 points for Kit Refinement).

10/30/0/20/10 gives us the best damage possible with the Flamethrower while still sustaining Light fields with Super Elixir. What setup do you think outperforms this?

Seras.5702:

And paired with Invigorating Speed from Alchemy it makes dodging endless.

Not necessarily “endless,” but very useful. Yet we already have 30 points in Firearms. Why not just go for Infused Precision? It’s not like we need Hair Trigger or Rifled Barrels. And Napalm Specialist is unnecessary with Incendiary Powder and of no great help without it.

Look at what Cleansing Formula 409 says:

“Throwing or consuming elixirs removes conditions from those affected.”

Do we throw or consume Elixir Gun skills? I know some may find that kind of wording deceptive, but that’s precisely why it was written the way it was. This is not a bug.

Kit Refinement is something I defined my build around given that it gave us a 100% sustainable Light field with Super Elixir. On top of having 100% Fury upkeep with Altruism + Drop Stimulant, the FT/EG build for a long time was about the best hybridization of offense and defense the Engineer had in PvE.

With ArenaNet re-examining Kit Refinement, ideally with the intention of making it something along the lines of the Elementalist’s Evasive Arcana, it will become a larger component to Tools-centric builds which the FT/EG setup cannot integrate given our 60-point dependency on Juggernaut, Deadly Mixture, and now Incendiary Powder.

This, of course, is all determinant on what ArenaNet has in store for the Flamethrower and lightening up our trait dependency. If they rework how Flame Jet’s damage values are calculated, not to mention perhaps having Flame Just burn on the first hit and not the tenth, we may or may not be able to follow Kit Refinement up the Tools tree.

This is also dependent on whether or not the Tools tree gets an entire rework that actually makes a 30-point investment worth it over other options. Outside of Kit Refinement, we don’t have much need for the tree currently in PvE.

Kardiamond.6952:

I’m not talking about PvE, as I can make any kind of build and still be viable.

I love this sweeping dismissal of PvE in every other thread here, even though this totally isn’t how it is and you’re ridiculously downplaying the versatility the Engineer has compared to everybody else.

I also find this stance pretty disingenuous because you’re eliminating half the game from the conversation—the half of which the majority of players actually play.

Kardiamond.6952:

Static discharge -> Supbart in sPvP. You are a glass cannon with very low survability and weak conditions removal. Your dps burst is lower then a mesmer shatter burst, without there infinite escape mecanism.

Pretty much everyone’s DPS burst—outside of the Thief—is lower than a Mesmer’s Shatter burst, so this is a moot point.

Is the conversation here about being the best build out there or simply having specialized options that do actually fare well against the other seven classes in this game, including other Engineers?

Kardiamond.6952:

PPHGH : Condi Burst is the top version of PPHGH in sPvP, and basically a variant of the traditionnal PPHGH.

I’m not sure what you’re getting at here.

Kardiamond.6952:

100nades : They said in the SotG they were going to remove it next patch.

Did they? I heard them say they thought that the Grenade Kit and Elixir Gun procs with Kit Refinement were too strong for a 10-point trait.

I’m not going to totally dismiss the idea of reworking Kit Refinement to suit utility over damage, but there is nothing to suggest that wielding the Grenade Kit with Kit Refinement will be any less viable a spec after the 26th.

This is baseless internet hysterics, like most everything else in this thread.

Kardiamond.6952:

Tankcat : Bunker build, and not as efficient as Guardian bunker.

I think this point is debatable. Can we compare to the pure survivability of a Guardian? Probably not. But the Engineer has a perfectly viable bunker spec that can additionally apply seven stacks of Confusion on top of Poison and Bleed. The Guardian bunker is a tank. The Engineer bunker is a pest. One is designed to hold onto a point—the other is designed to draw them away from it.

I also find playing a bunker Engineer infinitely more entertaining than a bunker Guardian, not to mention one class outdoing us in the one thing they’re designed to do doesn’t mean that bunkering isn’t effective or “competitive” for the Engineer.

CKres.4589:

I want to focus more on FT. although I know grenades would be better damage wise but not really my priority.

Good, because it shouldn’t be.

I mean, perhaps tomorrow’s patch may change things, but I’ve always seen the Flamethrower as the middle-ground playstyle between full offense and full defense. The FT is a nice hybrid of AoE damage and control, which is why I use it most on my Engineer, at least on the PvE side of things.

CKres.4589:

is it ok to mix and match gears? maybe switch my trinkets with zerker/knight?

When using my Flamethrower I carry two sets around with me at any given time: Zerker armor/Zerker jewelry + Soldier armor/Knight jewelry. Depending on the difficulty of content I’ll wear full Zerker, full Soldier, or a mix of the two. All of my armor is outfitted with Altruism runes, so they can be swapped in and out as needed.

If you only want to invest in one set of armor, I think 5/6 Knight + Soldier chest piece is a good balance. It’s what I use on Hammer/Staff Guardian who spends most of his time at the front in PvE/WvW. I’m sure it would translate well for the FT Engineer.

And try out Beryl jewelry with Emerald Orbs.

The thing about turrets is that their cooldowns are way too long. Rocket Turret does good damage, but if you’re not camping a single spot it’s very frustrating to use.

Most people just slot the Rifle Turret with Static Discharge. You use Surprise Shot, place the Rifle Turret, overcharge it, detonate it, and then Surprise Shot again. Adds quite a bit of potency to a Rifle rotation’s Jump Shot → Blunderbuss → Overcharged Shot burst.

Kardiamond.6952:

@Vuh

Well 100nade is going down next patch. So we are down to 2 build, and I rarely ever see our bunker build. Why would you take it over a guardian?

Why do you say that?

In PvE there’s three great specs I can think of, off the top of my head: HGH Grenadier, FT/EG hybrid, and P/P HGH.

In sPvP/WvW, there’s Static Discharge, PPHGH, 100nades, and “TankCat.” Never mind the improvised variants of each, like slotting the Flamethrower in place of other kits that redefines how you play the entire role.

I find other classes extremely stifling by comparison, where I feel like I have to be using one setup that clearly outclasses everything else. The only class that didn’t make me feel like that is Guardian—which is why it’s the only class that managed to hold my interest to level 80.

Understandable. Rifle versus Pistol is a playstyle choice—primarily whether or not you want to center yourself around Power or Condition Damage.

You seem to be well into the swing of things even at level 15. Just steer clear of the Inventions tree unless you plan on using turrets and you really can’t go wrong in the building of your Engineer.

Oglethorpe.5369:

I wouldn’t say “favorite” yet, as I’m only level 15, but it has been the most fun in that time, no doubt.

For leveling, the best kit is the Bomb Kit. Learn to love it, though dungeon content makes it dangerous to use a lot of the time at level 80.

The Grenade Kit doesn’t really shine until Grenadier is unlocked at level 60—the same with the Flamethrower and Juggernaut.

When leveling I liked Static Discharge, wielding a Rifle with Tool Kit + Utility Goggles + Rifle Turret, specced mostly into Firearms, Inventions, and Tools.

I cannot say how the Grenade Kit performs as a Condition Damage build while leveling. My only real experience with it is using it at level 80. I didn’t much like the way it worked and still do not.

Seras.5702:

I recommend grabbing Elixir Gun and experimenting with that. Really boosts survivability. Also, I’ve found that 2 kits is enough and I add a gadget or elixir to my bar. This way I can swap between my pistols, FT, & Elixir Gun, and buff it all with Goggles or Elixir B.

I second this advice.

The Elixir Gun is a low cost, high reward investment to your build given that it requires no traits to use effectively. You’ll get more out of it with Deadly Mixture and Fireforged Trigger, but these are not at all necessary like Juggernaut and Grenadier are.

The usual setup is to have an offensive-minded kit like the Bomb Kit, Grenade Kit, or Flamethrower and then use the Elixir Gun with your choice of third utility slot. In PvE I focus on elixirs. In dungeons I’ll use Elixir R or C depending on what the content most requires; I’ll use Elixir B in open-world content. In WvW I prefer to focus on gadgets, as most of them are better stunbreakers on shorter cooldowns than elixirs.

The Elixir Gun shines less in sPvP, and in such cases you’re best off just using one kit that augments the strengths of your weapon (Flamethrower with Rifle, Tool/Grenade Kit with Pistol) and slotting two elixirs/gadgets on your bar.

luckywaldo.6089:

Phineas Poe.3018:

Kalan.9705:

Hrmm Phineas, there is no difference between any class swapping it’s skills or weapons once they leave combat, and an engineer swapping it’s kits=once the engineer leaves combat.

wat.

I think he means that other classes can carry any or all weapons in their inventory, and chose two depending on the situation.

So a guardian can do GS+Hammer, and carry around a scepter for those times that he needs something ranged.

I knew what he meant. And that’s precisely what I do on my Guardian and Engineer. On my Engi I carry three pistols with me, one with Bloodlust, one with Strength, and one with Force. I also carry two Rifles with me, one with Battle and another with Bloodlust.

But I was talking about while in combat. And in combat the Engineer has plenty more options available than any other class if using kits. We are designed to swap in and out of our kits and weapons, which is why the devs say that we pay a cost for that versatility—because if our Rifle or Pistol was powerful enough to stand alone on its own, on top of the added utility of kits, we would be overpowered.

Talking about swapping weapons outside of combat is totally irrelevant and a pretty hysterical rebuttal to my point.

CKres.4589:

I currently have Soldier Gear on my FT Engi but I was thinking if Knights would be better. would the lost of vitality make my engi suffer in dungeons? It seems that as long as you can evade and repel/block high impact damage spells from mob you can survive dungeons, but im not really sure.

EDIT: bomb/grenade kit good with knight gear?

With my FT build I wear Zerker in most every dungeon except for certain paths in Sorrow’s Embrace and Arah. With Knight’s you should be fine.

What jewelry do you wear?

Kaleban.9834:

Fact is, there are better and more elegant ways to go about balance, it simply remains to be seen if ANet learns from its past mistakes.

Fact is, it simply remains to be seen what “boon hate” really even is.

Goloith.6349:

Its not fixed, but it’s better.

What’s not fixed about it? Seems to work fine for me. The biggest problem was attacking stationary targets, which was fixed a patch or two ago.

Kalan.9705:

Hrmm Phineas, there is no difference between any class swapping it’s skills or weapons once they leave combat, and an engineer swapping it’s kits=once the engineer leaves combat.

wat.

Kalan.9705:

but this extreme versatility comes at a cost in damage on their main hand weapons.

Our Rifle and Pistol are not the best areas that we shine in when it comes to either Power or Condition Damage, but that does not, by default, make them “weak.”

Static Discharge with the Rifle speaks for itself, as do any Condition Damage builds that incorporate the Pistol’s 2-4 skills. Unlike other classes, they’re simply not designed to stand on their own.

Probably because if they did, on top of our kit selection, we’d actually be overpowered. A Guardian has to make a conscious decision between using a Hammer for control or a Greatsword for DPS. We get to just swap out of our kits and use the Rifle when we need the snares/knockbacks.

At any time.

Kalan.9705:

I entirely agree, the dev effort into classes has been very, mixed and appears to favour classes they play. It’s no only an engineer problem. This means
a) the devs don’t have enough devs to play all the classes properly on the balance team
b) they are getting very bad information about the classes they don’t play and hence making very bad decisions. (no-one who actually played an engineer could have okayed the kit refinement mess from last patch for e.g., no-one who played engineer would take the stability from juggernaut, without replacing it with access to stability somewhere else and on and on)
c) they need both a test server, and a 1 dedicated dev per class minimum, ontop of the class balance generalists, as a proper workflow for the balance team.

Or,

d) Balancing the Engineer is a significantly more difficult effort than balancing the Warrior or Guardian.

I also think you’re really exaggerating how bad we have it. The only real underperforming build we have at the moment is turrets. Gadgets could also probably use a look, but aside from maybe buffing the Flame Jet’s damage another 10-15%, our kits are pretty much where they should be.

And why would anyone think that our mainhand weapons are intentionally designed to be weak? The Pistol is one of the few weapons (if not the only) in the game that can spread Bleed, Poison, Confusion, and Burn.

And the Rifle … really? Net Shot is one of the best immobilization skills in the game. And Jump Shot’s leap with Rifled Barrels is so ridiculous that breaks most Jumping Puzzles. If you have trouble staying outside melee range with the Rifle, that is entirely between you and your keyboard.

Moddo.7105:

As I said there is a boon counter called Conditions.

Do conditions really “counter” boons? Or do they just “counter” Toughness?

Goloith.6349:

I actually run GS / Staff and I get a lot more badges than I do with my FT Engineer. I think it is probably has something to do with ft missing. Then again those misses might save you haha.

They fixed the FT’s bugginess with missing. How recently have you tried the setup?

Saki Asakura.6479:

However, I really have no way to avoid burst if I get attacked first. The lack of a stunbreaker/ invulnerability skill is pretty much the biggest weakness of this build.

This is probably the number one reason I do not spec for HGH with my Flamethrower. Elixir B’s Retaliation is nice, but Rocket Boots are probably the best escape tool we have and has saved my life countless times—in WvW and sPvP.

Zinwrath.2049:

FT hits 3 targets.

Greatsword no cap on targets.

your words “Because flamejet hits more targets”

I’m going to make this point very clear to you: In one attack it may not, but Flame Jet strikes 10 times per channel. You do realize that the tooltip for Whirling Wrath is suggesting you hit only the target in front of you—with 7 spins and 2 of the projectiles, right?

You don’t hit all targets in 600 range 9 times.

I’m going to take a move from your playbook and tell you to go to the Mists, stand in the crowd of Golems, and spin in place while you shoot Flame Jet. You will hit most if not all of them at least once.

Now swap to your Greatsword Guardian. Stand in the middle, doing the same thing. Fire off Whirling Wrath and see how many targets you hit. You’ll hit like 5 of them—maybe 7 or 8 if you’re moving.

The one crucial detail you’re neglecting here is that the projectiles (there’s seven of them) fired out from WW do not penetrate. They will hit a target and disappear. So that is seven maximum targets you can hit with Whirling Wrath’s projectiles.

Zinwrath.2049:

Flamethrower will continue to hit the same 3 targets untill one is out of range or dies.

I get what you’re saying, but people don’t stand in place. They’re not Golems.

They move around. It’s actually easier to just blindly sweep through a crowd than it is to try and directly take down individual players—so the likelihood that your Flame Jet will continue to hit the same 3 targets is ridiculously low—as is the higher likelihood you’re going to hit someone that has Retaliation compared to a Greatsword Guardian, which is the real reason why the Flamethrower is more dangerous—not having AHEM or ZB.

The question is solely about risk versus reward. Some players like Amadeus prefer other styles because of the fact that there are less risky ways to get badges. I find risky, front-line play a lot of fun—which is why my two level 80 characters are a Hammer Guardian and a Flamethrower Engineer.

BILL GE.8716:

Thanks very much for your time! Its very detail and informatical. So do u suggest i run berserker gear with FT to get that high damage? How about the defensive point i wanted

Currently, the damage potential for critting Flame Blast is a lot more than you get stacking Condition Damage for perma burning, so yeah—go Zerker.

If you feel you’re too squishy, Knight’s insignia gear is a good in-between of Zerker (full offensive) and Soldier (full defensive). I’d argue a Soldier set is easier to compile than a Knight set given that you can get it from Orr karma vendors, but that’s ultimately up to you and how much gold you want to spend.

At level 80 I first started out with Soldier + Emerald jewelry, which really gives you a nice balance of stats—so that’s usually where I recommend FT Engineers to start.

I find it’s defensive overkill in most situations, though. But it eases out the learning curve, as Flame Jet takes getting used to.

Zinwrath.2049:

Phineas Poe.3018:

Goloith.6349:

By biggest question is why my guardian doesn’t get faced palmed on retaliation for whirling in circles but my Engineer does with flamethrower.

Because Flame Jet hits more targets.

i’m just gonna leave this here. Where you claim it hits more targets. You can beat around it all day, but in the end, it hits 3 targets, GS hits more.

I’ve already responded to this point, explaining how it hits more targets. I don’t know how to be more explicit.

It has a maximum reach of 3 targets per Flame Jet attack, but the skill “attacks” 10 times before restarting. That means you can potentially hit 30 different targets every 2.25 seconds; this is very easy to do given that you have full mobility with the Flamethrower and that it can be used with perma Swiftness in combat with Infused Precision. That’s passive. I just have it.

A Greatsword Guardian, on the other hand, has to be within 600 range of his targets to reach them with Whirling Wrath. At reduced mobility. Without perma Swiftness. They have to fill up their bar with shouts to match the mobility of an Engineer that only has to spend 10 trait points to get it.

I know on paper this argument sounds so convincing to you, but WvW zergs are not static objects. They move. And a Greatsword Guardian spinning and winning is going to move slower than people that run away.

I don’t.

Which is why, if you’re out to get badges for your Guardian, you shouldn’t be using the Greatsword at all. You should be using your Staff, which hits 5 targets every second. It doesn’t have as high tagging potential as the Flamethrower does, but with Symbol of Swiftness and any modest Boon Duration stacking, it does give you near-perma Swiftness.

Zinwrath.2049:

Also GS healing, whether the damage outscales the healing isnt important, its still going to cushion the damage…thus he is taking less damage. If he doesnt have the trait, then my first explanation of the CD explains it. (which suddenly now your on board with) Also, it might be good to note theres a good chance not everyone he hits has retaliation on them at the time, so if he hits 6 people and only 1 had retaliation i imagine it wouldnt seem severe at all.

So I’m the one backpedaling?

Empowering Might + Altruistic Healing is the best passive healing the class has for the Greatsword. But I’m the one playing my Guardian wrong, right?

Zinwrath.2049:

But ya, you claim false info in every thread, which is why i have to correct you in every thread, i’m not singling you out, you just happen to be the doofus saying clueless stuff in half the engineer threads i read. Anyway, like last couple threads you began backpeddling which is when i know i got through to you, and now your just trying to salvage pride….so, whatever ya gotta do. But ya…3 targets max. GS unknown (in testing it hits atleast 5)

For one thing, this isn’t about “salvaging pride.” I don’t really much care about what trolls on the internet think of me or my opinion; I’m just here to set the facts straight for those that probably haven’t leveled both a Guardian or Engineer or for those that have an Engineer and just haven’t tried the FT because of people like you who constantly downplay how good it actually is.

I offer up my own ideas of the Flamethrower for how it works for me in PvE and PvP; if they’re not interested, that’s no skin off my back. If people want less badges because they’re afraid of Retaliation, that’s their loss. And yours.

I’m just offering alternatives here in line with what the OP wants. If you want to spend all day shooting them down that’s up to you. But I think I’m allowed to respond to it in kind.

Zinwrath.2049:

Anyway, i already said why it doesnt, he probably is traited for GS master trait to heal himself every hit.

Who puts 30 points in Zeal? It’s easily the weakest tree of the five.

Altruistic Healing + Empowering Might passively heals for a lot more than Zealous Blade does. To be exact: ZB heals for 25 per hit. Retaliation does 200+.

So try again.

Or better yet: Stop trolling me across different threads. It’s getting old. Not even sure why this argument is even happening, just like how you blew a gasket over me saying using the Rampager trinket in sPvP with the Flamethrower is “fine.”

Zinwrath.2049:

End point, FT has a cap of 3 targets it can be hitting at any one time. so no it does not “hit more targets”. Its gonna hit 30 times total every auto attack (if there are 3 or more targets to be hit) Greatsword can easily hit 5 targets 9 times for a total of 45 hits.

So your incorrect in saying it “hits more targets”, because it doesnt.

The difference is that I can direct where my Flamethrower aims. If you aim at one corner of a group and sweep it across all of them, you will get badges like candy. A Guardian cannot do this. Binding Blade can pull 5 people toward you, and Whirling Wrath can beat up those around you, but you cannot aim your Greatsword at a crowd of people and sweep it across as you strafe through it.

Zinwrath.2049:

and finally, do you seriously play a gaurdian? Because if you think your farming faster with a FT engineer over a greatsword gaurdian….man….either you dont actually have a gaurdian or your doing something wrong.

Or maybe you just don’t know how to use the Flamethrower to tag targets properly?

Whirling Wrath has a cooldown. Flame Jet doesn’t.

I’ve heard of people leveling Engineers solely for farming Orr with the Grenade Kit or Flamethrower. I have never heard of anyone doing that with a Guardian—but if I was one to farm with it, I’d use the Staff, not the Greatsword.

Zinwrath.2049:

incorrect information. Gaurdian’s ae on Whirling Wrath has no max targets (and if it does its above 6).
Engineers Flamet jet has a cap of 3 targets.

Please do not spread false information.

Flame Jet has a cap of 3 targets per attack. The skill “attacks” 10 times. Whirling Wrath flies out projectiles at random, which makes it pretty difficult to hit anywhere near the same number of people, which is why I farm Orr on my Engineer and not my Guardian—as should everyone else who has leveled both classes.

If you just bull rush into a crowd with it you’ll hit a lot of different people, which means you’re more likely to hit someone that has Retaliation—if not a group of people. This is why Flame Jet murders people, never mind the obvious fact that it is a spammable auto-attack and Whirling Wrath has a cooldown.

Goloith.6349:

By biggest question is why my guardian doesn’t get faced palmed on retaliation for whirling in circles but my Engineer does with flamethrower.

Because Flame Jet hits more targets.

I seriously don’t understand how people can live and die by the Grenade Kit.

Until they fix the bug with Flame Blast’s double detonation (if history is any indication … not for a while), the FT is actually pretty good now in WvW. I was just playing with it yesterday. I had it hit people for over 10,000 damage in Zerker gear.

Like Kalan suggested above though, I would be careful just spamming Flame Jet into a crowd because of Retaliation—but that’s a skill issue and not a build issue. Just be mindful of this and you’ll be fine.

Oh, alright. Still kind of sucks given that this may affect P/P HGH builds (which is what I use in sPvP).

I guess we’ll have to wait and see how it affects us (and Guardians too).

I understand your frustration.

It seems you’re looking at things from the PvP side of things, but I could see it being a problem even on the PvE side of things. Most Engineer builds in PvE require boon-stacking to be competitive DPS options; should we really be penalized for this?

Having permanent Fury while swimming in Might is entirely what my build is based around.

Is this something that will be introduced in the upcoming patch on Tuesday?

For the uniformed: what is “boon hate?”

Zinwrath.2049:

They dont have the control survivability you claim they do. Every EG/FT engineer i’ve ever encountered (that wasnt doing some weird full defence bunker build) is just a free kill waiting to happen

I’m sure they were, given that (1) most Engineers in sPvP are terrible and (2) it’s not the best spec for sPvP. There’s a reason I wrote my guide in the PvE folder of Guru, and I already said I “don’t usually use” the FT/EG build in sPvP given that there are way better options for us. That said, it’s a nice change of pace every once in a while and, in my experience, wearing a Rampager/Zerker trinket works perfectly fine. It’s fine.

I didn’t say it makes you like the coolest kid ever.

I don’t understand why you’re crucifying me for this, or challenging me like an internet TryHard.

The worst part is, you’re arguing about the mechanics that the FT/EG runs around, which work the same regardless of what trinket you’re using. If Flame Jet slaps like a wet fish wearing a Rampager trinket, then it’ll be all the more worse in Soldier gear—with hardly much a boost in survivability against a Condition-based class like Necromancer.

Zinwrath.2049:

If you find it fun its one thing, but that 200 toughness doesnt make up for lack of disengage or the fact our burst is half of other professions that build for burst.

“Fun” wasn’t factored into anything I’ve written here.

I never said the Flamethrower is a burst weapon, either. If anyone was “built for burst” they probably should look elsewhere (i.e., Static Discharge with the Rifle).

I just don’t see how anything you wrote here counters anything I said; you’ve simply argued that a Thief does more damage. So what? The Flamethrower (and Elixir Gun) offers enough control + survivability options passively in the way they’re constructed. Going with a Soldier trinket in sPvP is total overkill—using a Zerker/Rampager trinket works perfectly fine.

Zinwrath.2049:

He was saying dont glass cannon in pvp..

And again: why not? You already have +200 Toughness from Juggernaut. I don’t usually use my Flamethrower in sPvP but when I do I use the Rampager trinket with it.

Lord Aargadon.4135:

The double explosion when not detonating is a bug. Please do be mature about this…

It is exploiting a bug, but I don’t see the problem with going Zerker with the Flamethrower. It scales great with Power, and with Juggernaut’s passive +200 Toughness and +Vitality from Alchemy you’re already pretty durable.

On my Engineer, I currently use Syzygy (Celestial/Celestial) with a Gilded Infusion (+20% Gold Find).

I don’t see why you’d use anything else, given that it has such a great balance of stats on it including Magic Find and Critical Damage. Power/Condition Damage is so easy to stack on the Engineer with Might it seemed silly to not go for the +All Stat amulet.

Halcyon.7352:

20 points in Tools for Kit Refinement seems fair to me, even with the internal cooldown (Could be shaved to 6 secs or so).

It just seems to me that’s a fair middle ground, particularly when Elementalist has similar 10 and 30 point traits in their Arcane tree, that are (arguably) respectively, worse and better.

The argument that it should be moved up to 30 to make for a ‘good’ GM trait just seems silly to me, even if the internal CD is removed. Yes, it’s true our GM traits are lackluster. That does indeed call for a bit of an overhaul on certain traits, but that doesn’t mean we should be pigeon holed even more than we already are with some builds.

I would think making Kit Refinement super powerful again would precisely eliminate the feeling of pigeonholed builds—especially those that think the Grenade Kit is our only option.

So with all due respect to all the Grenade Kit Engineers, buffing the Tool Kit and Flamethrower procs is well worth the sacrifice. If they buff the turrets properly (not holding my breath) and have the Tool Kit actually do something good when swapped-to beyond just an AoE cripple, it may actually have a role to shine in finally on the PvE side of things. In the bigger picture of the class and its overall health this is a change I welcome so long as it’s done properly.

Kimbald.2697:

most of the other traits in that line are too weak for being 30, 20 or even 10 points…

The problem with Adrenal Implants is that Invigorating Speed is a much easier trait to spec for and synergizes well with Infused Precision. And since every other Engineer out there has at least 10 points in Firearms and Alchemy, if you need the Vigor, it makes sense to swap out Precise Sights for it than sink 30 points into Tools.

I think Armor/Leg Mods are great ideas but they’re just too weak. Simply buff their potency. Have Armor Mods give 5 seconds of Retaliation every 15, not 25. And have Leg Mods work with all kits.

The rest of the traits are fine. Speedy Kits, Speedy Gadgets, Static Discharge, Deployable Turrets, and Power Wrench all are useful for the respective builds they’re used for. The problem is that those builds are weak. The traits themselves are fine.

I think the global cooldown added to Kit Refinement was their idea of a band-aid to “balancing” the Engineer.

I think they need to just remove the global cooldown and move it up the tree. 20 points in Tools seems fair.

timidobserver.7925:

nakoda.4213:

6pc forge runes, battle (yes i’ve made the switch…it’s a pun, get it? ^.^) or strength sigil.

I’ve been slowly working on the forge runes. It doesn’t help that people, at least on my server, hate running SOE because it is unendingly annoying.

For PvE I think it’s important to share the wealth.

Run Altruism + Water + Monk for 30% Boon Duration. The reason I say that over Hoelbrak + Strength is because Drop Stimulant is ferrealz the bee’s knees with 15 seconds of Fury on a 20-second cooldown (with 20 points in Alchemy). That extra 10% in Might Duration definitely is not > 20% critical hit chance.

Or just run 6/6 Altruism and give 6 seconds of Fury to everybody.

This post is of course not talking about PvP.

Yeah I didn’t realize that someone necro-bumped this until after I wrote my post.

Still, I think the lesson is valuable. P/P Elixir spec is a good Might-stacking build with HGH, but the Flamethrower lives and dies by it—successfully.