Guild Wars 2

I think that’s something you should anticipate if you’re going to roll a Condition Damage setup. See who else in the group is doing a Burn build. If someone speaks up you should sort that out rather than challenge each other the entire time.

1. Have the Flamethrower’s Flame Blast receive a Blast finisher for improved synergy with Napalm/Super Elixir

Why this is reasonable: This is precisely how the Hammerdin works (Symbol + Mighty Blow) and no one bats an eyelash.

2. Buff Napalm so that it either (1) has a larger radius or (2) has a shorter cooldown.

Why this is reasonable: Because I like the Warrior Bow’s Combustive Shot and I think it’s ridiculous that a back-up weapon for the Warrior provides a larger Fire field than a major kit for the Engineer that we often build around. Either give it a circular AoE like Combustive Shot or halve the cooldown. Do something.

3. Have Flame Jet apply Burn at the beginning of its channel and not at the end.

Why this is reasonable: We’re not going to get Flame Jet to sustain Burn like Drake’s Breath or Zealot does for the Elementalist or Guardian because those are skills on a timer and Flame Jet is our auto-attack. But applying Burn at the beginning of each channel means we more consistently gain from the 10% damage buff with the latest patch and doesn’t break anything about the kit. It also eliminates yet another required trait to get the most damage out of the Flamethrower—which already requires 50 points in two different trees. No other kit has to deal with this.

4. Elixir Gun’s Acid Bomb breaks snares.

Why this is reasonable: It’s probably not. I just want it.

Zinwrath.2049:

IMO all these things should have met everyones expectations, they should work in a way that makes people happy and is fun.

But there are builds for the Flamethrower that make a lot of people happy and are fun. I and others have made that point clear already.

Might-stacking is a very simple and easy method to make the Flamethrower work in PvE. As I stated before, because it is an AoE kit, it’s probably not well designed for sPvP and probably never be. If people make it work I’m glad for them, but I’m not going to clamor ArenaNet to change the way the FT works that may in turn affect how it performs in PvE/WvW. Case in point: Gadgets are amazing for PvP as control options, but in PvE they’re really only used as Blast finishers for most Engi builds.

As you probably remember, the Flamethrower once upon a time wasn’t even designed to be a good DPS option, used instead for Stability as a tankier method to play the Engineer. I took that to heart, even after Juggernaut’s redesign, and thought the FT (and the EG) was always relegated to be a more defensive, tanky option the same way a Guardian would use a Mace over a Greatsword.

What we have right now instead is closer to a Hammer, but people still clamor for the Greatsword. Because the Grenade Kit does more damage there’s something wrong with it—like every Attunement for the Elementalist should be modeled after Fire.

Zinwrath.2049:

Also, ya guild missions is A answer, my point on launch…it didnt have those, which means it had NOTHING for guilds to do over 5 in PVE. Thus all the guilds left, and are now tied up in other games…and newer bigger mmos are around the corner…most of those guilds are not going to ever migrate back here, and its a shame

Yeah, it’s a crying shame. What will we do with ourselves?

(Who seriously cares?)

People come and go. That’s how all online games are. The question is how good the attrition rate is, and by all indications I think Guild Wars 2 is doing just fine in that regard—at least on Sanctum of Rall.

Zinwrath.2049:

But the rewards end up being things you need to progress further, which is counter productive….and thus angered an even LARGER group of people who were fanboys of the idea of no gear treadmill….which they turned around and put in with ascended gear.

Oh please. Agony Resistance has no purpose outside of Fractals. People were angry about the announcement originally because they were jumping to conclusions. That was November. This is March. Nobody is afraid of any treadmill being implemented.

You can still complete any dungeon in the game with exotic gear just fine. It’s only for people that want it (i.e., people who want a gear grind). If you don’t want it, you don’t have to get it or play it.

I’m not really sure what you want, here. If there is no gear treadmill, there has to be a point where you have the best available gear in the game. That’s where my Engineer has been for months—I still boot up the game every other day.

Zinwrath.2049:

And yes, everythings a work in progress…but like i said, this is why people migrate back to other mmos or move on. You could say, “well X mmo didnt have all those features at launch…give gw2 a couple years” well thats just the thing, people have lives…and limited free time, i’m not gonna play a game that isnt giving me what i want when another game does.

I think the elephant in the room here is that (1) you are still playing Guild Wars 2 and (2) Guild Wars 1 existed precisely by that model of a coming-and-going playerbase.

Following every expansion there was always a surge of players—new and old. I was one of them. I’d play all the content available in each expansion and then go back to playing other stuff.

If you’re bored of the game then stop playing it. I admire your loyalty to state your complaints about the game rather than dropping it entirely, but if you’re not having fun with a game anymore than maybe it’s time to take a break from it and wait until they add new content.

If you don’t come back, that’s on them.

Zinwrath.2049:

for one thing everyone eats GS warriors in Spvp

Please don’t take my wording out of context. All I’m saying is that certain builds shine in certain areas of the game, and I think the GS Warrior is a perfect example. I feel fully comfortable with what my FT build offers to my group in PvE. I don’t think it translates 1:1 in WvW in sPvP, though.

Zinwrath.2049:

Also, you have a way of stating things without backing it up.

[….]

Yet you gave nothing to support what GW2 has that isnt just another form of gear treadmill….

I didn’t back it up because anyone who has played Guild Wars 1 knows precisely what I’m talking about. WvW is way more epic than Alliance Battles and Fort Aspenwood/Jade Quarry ever were, and s/tPvP is going to continue to build in content. The only real think the PvP area of the game is missing is GvG, which is what tPvP ends up being half the time anyway.

In GW1 their idea of difficult content was running the story all over again—on Hard Mode. Other enjoyable things to do in your off-time were running against walls to complete Explorer, grab duplicate skills in Cantha and Elona from elites that you already had from Prophecies, and standing on circles during holidays.

Obviously I’m being reductive here, but Guild Wars 2 blows Guild Wars 1 out of the water in PvE, and was successful in holding lasting power for years despite directly competing with WoW. GW2 is going to be just fine.

There is no gear treadmill in this game. You don’t need gear from Ascalon Catacombs to do Sorrow’s Embrace, nor do you need gear from Sorrow’s Embrace to do Arah. Level 80 PvE is actually completely flat. This is why people got bored and left after quitting life for a month to play GW2 18 hours straight every day. They failed to actually notice that the design philosophy of GW2 is directly opposite of that playstyle.

The only exception to this is Fractals of the Mist, which can be completely ignored with laurel/guild rewards. Some content is obviously harder than others. Running CM all day is a cake walk compared to Arah path 4.

ArenaNet is sticking to their guns in my book.

Zinwrath.2049:

Hell, read the tons of forum threads in general chat about how this game has NOTHING for guilds to do over 5 players outside WvW. NO raids, no guild hall to purchase decorate and hold meetings and fun events in with portals mini games (like eq2)….they finally put in guild missions because they realized this was killing off a huge chunk of the player base….PVE’rs who came here with a large guild and had nothing to do as a guild.

Like you said, Guild Missions are the official answer to this. My guild completes Tier 3 Bounty Hunts every weekend, before and after the reset. It takes a pretty big effort by a lot of people to track down and kill 6 different NPCs in 15 minutes across a dozen different zones. I enjoy this kind of stuff—no skin off my back if you don’t.

But we did stuff together even before the GM addition. Being able to do temple events in Arah all by ourselves is a lot of fun. The group content is there.

And I’m sorry, but I don’t miss raids. I don’t miss having to schedule my life around a video game just to keep up with everybody else. I’m not a teenager anymore and despite the fact that my job grants me the flexibility of posting online, I don’t have time to sit in dungeons for two and a half hours three times a week.

If ArenaNet actually did this I would be very frustrated and disappointed, because I love that dungeons are short (at least most of them), repeatable, and don’t require 40 people to do it.

Zinwrath.2049:

And your right, toolkit is less effective in PVE than it is in pvp. Because it doesnt fullfill its PVE role, which is healing your turrets in combat. They buffed its ability to do that, but turrets dont scale (off power anyway), and its heal (despite buffing it 100%) is still crap. So while some people would like to basicly be the tf2 engineer in PVE, they cant and its a problem imo.

It’s a work in progress. Spirit Weapons for Guardians received a buff last patch. I see a similar one coming for the Engineer’s Turrets.

Zinwrath.2049:

Also FT is the most popular weapon we have….its cool…it shoots FIRE.

I’m curious what makes you think the FT is the most popular weapon we have, given all the negative reaction surrounding it in every GD thread here.

I have never used P/P Elixirs in dungeons. How does the damage compare to the FT or Grenade Kit?

I have to say I disagree. Guild Wars 2 is way more robust in PvE content than Guild Wars 1 was. And Guild Wars 1 was very successful—otherwise we wouldn’t be playing its sequel.

I remember in August/September there was a surge of players who rushed through the content, got to level 80, and didn’t know what to with themselves. They went back to WoW with its endless treadmill chasing that carrot on a stick. Nobody misses them. And they’ll certainly be back when the expansion comes out and we return to Cantha or Elona. And then they’ll leave again. It’s just the way the industry goes. I think ANet is smart not to frame their game around that population which can quite honestly never be satisfied.

Guild Wars 2 isn’t like that because Guild Wars 1 wasn’t like that. If that’s not someone’s type of game I completely understand, but it is definitely a successful model and GW2 still going strong says a lot about that. Even with the upgrades to world event chests I still get thrown in Lion’s Arch overflow on the weekends. Plenty of people are still playing the game; I feel like the population has done nothing but grow, to be honest.

You don’t have to run Fractal 48 to successfully complete any of the other dungeons in the game. It’s completely optional, and they’re now introducing other methods to getting Ascended gear to satisfy other play styles (aside from the backpack).

I play Battlefield 3, Halo 4, NHL 13, and a variety of other multiplayer titles on my Xbox. I know what draws people to competitive multiplayer. I definitely enjoy it. But I’ll take new Skyrim DLC over a new CoD map pack any day of the week. That is just how I roll; I’m a PvE guy and PvP is always secondary.

Perhaps the Flamethrower better supports my PvE-centric playstyle than yours. That’s all right, because the Tool Kit in my opinion is total crap in PvE, considering how stupid-good it got buffed in the latest patch and is almost mandatory in WvW. I still love it and don’t really think this needs to be changed. Some skills shine in certain areas of the game that others won’t. Every class deals with this. I eat Greatsword Warriors for breakfast in sPvP.

Pistol with Coated Bullets gives us the most tagging options.

Flamethrower is runner-up with Flame Blast able to damage 5 targets at once.

P/P works best with a Firearms/Alchemy focus with either 3 elixirs or your choice of Tool/Bomb Kit for Confusion spam. In WvW, I favor the Tool Kit + Elixir S + Elixir R/U/B/C. In PvE I run three elixirs.

In Firearms, fill out all your traits to boost your Pistol (Coated Bullets + Rifled Barrels + Hair Trigger).

In Alchemy, fill out all your traits to boost your elixirs (Fast-Acting Elixirs + Cleansing Formula + HGH). If using Elixir B/U, go with Potent Elixirs somewhere in place of those three.

Fill out the final 10 points in Inventions or Tools. Explosives is a decent alternative with Incendiary Powder, too.

I run a 4/2 split of Rabid/Carrion with my insignias. If you’re running buff elixirs like Elixir B, boon duration is a good rune choice. Otherwise Might stacking runes are great.

I run dual Rampager pistols with Sigil of Earth and Strength. Corruption is probably a better option than Strength but I’m cheap-o and I just use one of my FT/EG pistols when running this build. I don’t do it very often in PvE and more so use it in WvW/sPvP.

Edit: Apologies on all the ninja edits. I thought you were looking for a WvW build primarily and had to re-configure the post to PvE as well.

Zinwrath.2049:

I never said not to get crit. Also spvp and pve are relative. If you can get 1500 stats on an amulet (for examp) and pve you can get 2000 stats total….its no different. You simply can pour more of the same stat into one thing, or mix match them in more custom ways in pve. But thats all.

When talking about Power and Condition Damage, yes. But you cannot seriously suggest that 20% Critical Damage and 57% Critical Damage are fairly representative of each other.

Zinwrath.2049:

This isnt spvp where fun < effective.

I guess that’s true, but are we talking about purely sPvP here? I actually don’t much use the Flamethrower in sPvP, so I cannot comment on its effectiveness there. I generally use P/P Elixirs.

Zinwrath.2049:

cosmetic gear isnt worth it to show the world you have too much free time (aka glory rewards)

Well, for one thing Ascended gear isn’t cosmetic, unless you think upgrading your rare jewelry to exotic is pointless. It’s a whole different tier with improved stats. I mean I’m with you on Legendary weapons, which is why I don’t have one (aside from the fact that I’m a kit Engineer), but in my book we all grind—in PvE, WvW, and sPvP—just in different ways. You don’t find dungeon runs fun. I don’t find playing the same five maps fun. I find it a grind—only a distraction or change-up from PvE.

We clearly have differing perspectives, and that’s fine. Just important to recognize that from here on out.

Zinwrath.2049:

in SPVP you cant afford to not use things in a way that isnt optimal or do the best possible build, because as you climb higher in ladders and fight people on equal or higher skill….they will be using the stronger tools, and you cant afford a handicap so you gotta use the best build possible as well or you wont come out ontop.

Except nobody is going to stand on top of that thin sheet of fire that Napalm is. In PvE a mob won’t know the difference and won’t react, but a human player will in sPvP. To be quite honest: I’m not sure I really see the Flamethrower a good option in sPvP only because it’s better used as a sustained AoE weapon. There are some skirmishes in sPvP around objectives, but I think the kit would shine more in WvW just by its very nature.

Also full Zerker is 57% Critical Damage increase, not 42%. My eyes are tired and totally neglected to account for Ruby orbs in jewelry.

Makes me feel like unless someone really impresses me with actual PvE numbers with Rampager, the winner is obvious. If Zerker trinket and Rampager trinket dish out identical damage, what happens when Zerker gear has nearly 3x more Critical Damage in PvE?

Zinwrath.2049:

So, +condition damage is going to effect the flamethrower’s damage heavily.

But does it affect it so heavily that one should forgo slotting any Critical Damage in their gear at all? With a kit that can clear a 70% Critical Hit Chance? This is precisely my problem with a Rampager setup and no one is responding to it. Even amateur observations with Mist Golems where you’re running half the Critical Damage you’d have in PvE totally canceled out any gain you’d muster by bolstering your Condition Damage.

I’m sure there’s plenty to be said about Rampager and it being muted compared to its sPvP trinket, but somehow I doubt it’s by all that much given that the difference in Power for the Zerker trinket is ~100 or less.

I simply don’t see it. I never have. Nothing in the patch changed the Flamethrower’s Condition Damage potential yet received a 10% buff to its direct damage so long as the target is burning.

Give me numbers. Real numbers. Stop just telling me it’s better. Show me how it is.

Zinwrath.2049:

Anyway, if your entirely focused on just seeing flamejet tally up to a big number, and seeing the biggest possible number on flame blast….well then sure. But if your trying to maximise the damage potential of the entire kit (and like i mentioned other kit/weapons fullfill AE direct damage or single target direct damage far superior than that of the FT) your best bet is to stack on some condition damage and use this between pistol attack rotations.

With all due respect, I don’t have to min/max every breath I make to get good efficiency out of the Flamethrower. So while it may interest you to do so to get the utmost “best” damage out of the build as humanly possible, I have enough on my plate just sustaining Super Elixir’s Light field and Fury on myself with Altruism + Drop Stimulant. So yes, I like standing there and using Flame Jet. Because I still complete CoF p1 in under ten minutes doing it.

I don’t use Air Blast for its burn. I like the change but I don’t need it given that I have Incendiary Powder + Flame Jet. In any group situation any target is going to have Burn 100% sustained, especially if there’s a Guardian or Elementalist in the group. This just simply is not an issue. So I use Air Blast as a defensive option for its knockback/interrupt.

It’s true Napalm misses out in a Power-based build, but is a remarkably mediocre skill regardless, best used with Acid Bomb for an area buff.

Naioby.3705:

Probably works differently in PvE but this is something that I am still studying and trying to get as much details as possible

It does. Full Zerker (including weapon) in PvE gets you:

830 Power
504 Precision
42% Critical Damage

Zerker/Zerker trinket in sPvP gets you:

923 Power
644 Precision
313 Vitality
20% Critical Damage

I’m sure there’s similar variation with the sPvP and PvE versions of Rampager, which is why I think Mist Golem numbers should be taken with a grain of salt. I want someone who actually has a Rampager set and can tell me how much damage their Burn does, how high their Bleed stacking usually gets to (with what rune set), and how much their Flame Jet hits for comparatively to Zerker.

Until someone does that, I think this conversation about Condition Damage versus Power is really a total waste of time. Enough with the theorycrafting.

Zinwrath.2049:

Well going off golem numbers, condition more than makes up for the power/crit damage loss.

I’m not entirely convinced.

With a 10/30/0/20/10 setup with Juggernaut active (6-stack):

Zerker trinket Burn was 470 damage, Bleed was 71 damage.
Rampager trinket Burn was 630 damage, Bleed was 103 damage.

That’s 160 dmg difference in Burn and a 32 dmg difference in Bleed.

That seems like a lot until you recognize that even with a 10-stack that’s only a 320 damage difference—which is probably about as high as you’re going to get with Sharpshooter alone without +Bleed duration rune/sigil. It usually averaged more around 6-7 stacks.

That’s all well and good but the crit damage potential for Zerker gear is pretty far above that, even on the Heavy Mist Golem. Rampager never reached over 1700 direct damage, averaging 1300-1500 usually.

Zerker instead consistently climbed over 2000 damage, many times 2500. So if we’re looking at it DPS-wise, even a conservative estimate of ~800 damage difference over 2.5 seconds is … about 320 damage gained per second.

These are ballpark estimations obviously, and meant to be taken with a grain of salt, but I think the point is clear. As far as I can tell, going Zerker vs Rampager gets you the same exact result. There is no clear winner.

The only things that could really sway things one direction over another is that (1) Zerker gear in PvE has a ton more critical damage than the sPvP trinket and (2) the power of Rampager really depends on how high you can get your Bleed stack without totally trashing your direct damage.

This is why I want specific numbers, in PvE, of players using Rampager insignia gear. Mist Golems just aren’t numbers to be trusted given the stat values with sPvP trinkets are not 1:1 to what you get access to in PvE.

I think another big question lies in whether or not Condition Damage or Power best benefits from each stack of Might. They both gain 35 points per stack, but based on Power coefficients with Flame Jet and Flame Blast that may complicate matters.

The other thing I had to ask:

nakoda.4213:

i’ve read somewhere that 50% crit is a sweet spot, in regards to then building other stats, so it has made me rethink my 83% crit w/ fury build.

I definitely agree that ~50% is about where you get diminishing returns giving what you have to give up to get higher than that.

I run with a base 53% critical hit chance with Rampager pistols, Zerker armor, a Celestial Ascended amulet, and Ruby jewelry. With Fury that’s 73%. I definitely benefit a lot from that, especially since I’m stacking a lot of critical damage in my gear.

My question is: Are you actually “getting back” that damage in Condition Damage by re-gearing with Divinity runes, dropping Altruism? Precision is Precision, and Bleed stacking is just as effective with a Power/Precision build as it would be with Divinity runes since there’s no +Bleed duration in your setup. So is the offset of like 40 damage per Bleed running Zerker over Rampagers really worth the loss in critical damage, especially with perma 73% critical chance?

If you could run some numbers I might be more open to this, but I don’t have a Rampager set on hand—and I don’t trust Mist Golem numbers at all.

nakoda.4213:

many of our builds are a mixture, however, and i believe this is the premise of the engineer.

here is a spec (traited for FT, but the gear and whatnot is what I am pointing to) that maximizes both comd dmg and power, while sitting near that 50% crit mark.

http://gw2buildcraft.com/calculator/engineer/?2.1|a.1o.h1h.a.1o.h1b|0.0.0.0.0.0|1o.71j.1o.71j.1o.71j.1o.71j.1o.71j.1o.71j|4v.d18.3v.d18.2v.d18.3v.0.2v.d18.2v.d12|a5.u58b.0.k67.a2|2s.7|2d.2w.2h.2r.0|e

i’ve read somewhere that 50% crit is a sweet spot, in regards to then building other stats, so it has made me rethink my 83% crit w/ fury build.

anyway;

POW 1804 (w/ 875 from might, assuming 25 stacks) ~ 2679
PRE ~ 1993
TOUGH 1746 (w/ 200 jugg) ~ 1946
COND 837 (w/ 875 from might, assuming 25 stacks) ~ 1712
CRIT 55% (w/ 20% from fury) ~ 75%
CRIT Dmg ~ 66%

over 3500 attack power and 35% dmg reduction, … WITH over 1700 cond dmg and perma fury resulting in 75% crit rate.

for an FT user, this is .. awesome.

Can you use Battle and Strength together? If so, that settles the whole issue of which to choose entirely.

Zinwrath.2049:

So i think FT is good, it has a purpose in condition/crit/power builds (importance in that order) and ofc is amazing for might stacks.

Do you really think the damage difference in Bleed stacks outweighs the damage loss in less Power and Critical Damage? My problem with this is that Bleed stacking really only gets huge unless you actually slot runes for it, meaning you’re giving up A LOT of damage by dropping 6/6 Altruism which gives you sustained Fury + Drop Stimulant.

Naioby.3705:

Yup keep using ur Sigil of Strength, people that want to really learn something will for sure accept and keep on with humbleness, but in your case it seems you always want to show you are right, when everyone proves you wrong.

I’ve been wrong plenty of times on this forum and on Guru. I’m not above being corrected—seems more here you just can’t stand the idea of someone using a setup different from yours.

If Sigil of Battle works better for your playstyle, great. Continue to use it. But for the way I use my Flamethrower I’m satisfied with Strength. One extra stack of Might isn’t really a big deal considering I get to 25 anyway without it, considering I primarily use my Flamethrower in PvE in group settings where I’m not the only one stacking Might.

Never once in this thread did I ever say that Sigil of Strength is a better choice than Sigil of Battle. My only contention was you trying to say that Strength only gives one stack of Might every ten seconds when it actually gives 5 (or 6 over 12 with Boon Duration buffs).

Either way, like Sporadicus, I’ve made my point. I’ll give you the final word here.

WulfKaiser.7920:

The base damage on attack one for flamethrower is 490 damage at 10x hits, for a total base damage of 4900 if your target gets all 10 hits. The base damage for the 2 skill on GS Warrior is 1,624 at 8x hits for a total of 12,992 base damage assuming all hits connect. This automatically puts the GS at nearly 3X’s the damage of flamethrower between the 2 skills.

It’s 490 damage over 10 attacks, meaning 490 damage—not 4900. I’ve had my Flame Jet hit for 4900 before, of course, but that was with 25 stacks of Might, 25 stacks of Bloodlust, and Vulnerability applied on the target. Our base damage with Flame Jet at level 80 is closer to around ~2000 with standard gear before Might and Bloodlust start kicking in.

More importantly, though, you’re comparing an auto-attack skill (Flame Jet) to a skill with an 8-second cooldown (Hundred Blades). Naturally Hundred Blades should deal more damage.

WulfKaiser.7920:

Do you think buffing the attack 1 damage from the flamethrower would make it more viable and therefore encourage players to welcome a wider variety of classes in dungeon runs? Do you think doubling the base damage on attack 1 to have it deal 66% of the damage of 100 Blades would be too much, not enough, or the right amount of damage increase for the Flamethrower?

I think Flame Jet as it works is perfectly fine. It offers enough crit consistency for Sigil of Strength and other on-crit procs. I think Flame Blast, too, works perfectly fine; it averages around ~4500-5000 damage for me between the “rolling” tag and the detonation. On a 4.5 second CD that’s pretty remarkable damage, especially with its radius.

Where I think the Flamethrower should be improved is in its #3-5 skills: Air Blast, Napalm, and Smoke Vent—more specifically Napalm.

Napalm needs something done to it. Either buff the hell out of it, add a cripple to its effect, or shorten the cooldown. Even with Fireforged Trigger you have to wait 20+ seconds for it to be ready again. It’s just way too long for what it currently offers.

Just look at a Warrior Bow’s Combustive Shot. It’s true that it has much shorter duration but it works much more efficiently with what you need out of the Bow than Napalm does with the Flamethrower—personal opinion.

One final note, in regard to your line of questioning: this may differ from guild to guild and server to server, but I have never been dismissed from a dungeon group for how I build or gear my Engineer—or for being an Engineer to begin with.

Naioby.3705:

I’m starting to question myself about Power, since we inflict bleed and the new upgrade we received for flamethrowers a 10% more dmg to burning enemies makes me want to go condition dmg, carrion(cond main then power) with incendiary powder to really inflict some crazy burns.

It’s a 10% damage increase to Flame Jet’s channeling attack that has no effect on its actual Burn damage. If you felt that the Flamethrower scaled better with Power pre-patch, it even more so does now.

Flame Jet and Flame Blast both are more Power-based in their damage than they are Condition based. Fact is: you lose out a ton more raw output going without critical damage from Zerker than you actually gain in Condition Damage with Rampager.

Naioby.3705:

You DON’T get 10 critical hits in 1 SECOND, and you CANNOT get more than 1 stack of might in less than 2 seconds (CD), so how the hell do you think u will have 16 stacks of might and they would all last for 10 secs?

I never said that I do get 10 critical hits in 1 second or that I can get more than 1 stack of Might in less than 2 seconds. Where are you reading any of this in my posts?

I said that Sigil of Strength can give five stacks of Might. Just in case you forgot, I’ll re-quote the post that started this debate.

Phineas Poe.3018:

Naioby.3705:

secondly, it has 10 secs of might, but it will only give you 1 stack of might

Errr … no?

It has a 30% chance to give you 10 seconds of Might. It has a 2-second internal cooldown.

Because the Flame Jet crits often, that means you will often have 5 stacks of Might.

I don’t know why this is such a hard thing for you to accept. It’s an on-crit sigil with a two second cooldown. If your individual Might stacks each last 10 seconds, that means you can get five stacks of Might sustained from Sigil of Strength while using the Flamethrower.

That’s all my point ever was. If you think Sigil of Battle works better for you then by all means continue to use it. But I’ve had great success with Strength and have had no troubles sustaining it with my playstyle. Let’s put an end to the silly remarks like whether or not you think fourth grade math is “too advanced” for me.

Lupanic.6502:

Sigil of Strength works if you have FT equipped?

Yes. Sigils now work with our kits.

I use Strength and Bloodlust simultaneously by dual wielding pistols.

Amadeus.5687:

@Phineas Poe
Theif Sword skill 2 is a stun breaker, and so is mesmer staff skill 2!

So they are. I stand corrected.

But that’s still only two weapon skills out of the dozens in the game that only two classes of the eight can take advantage of—given Thieves are using a Sword or a Mesmer with his/her Staff.

The overwhelming majority of stunbreakers in this game are utility skills, and very few of them additionally give you full Endurance back, cure conditions, and revive downed allies like Elixir R does.

You want to sit here and complain about what other classes have that the Engineer doesn’t—fine. But you must similarly acknowledge that our skills don’t work 1:1 with others and that an Elixir-spec Engineer has quite a few bail-outs available. By loading your bar with kits you acknowledge giving that up just the same as a Mesmer would wielding a Greatsword over a Staff.

Slotting kits outside of the utility bar just starts giving legitimacy to start nerfing them; i.e., cooldown on kit swapping. I do not want that to happen.

RaynStargaze.6510:

Kinda worried about march patch notes:

We added weapon swap to engineer – to balance this engineer can no longer equip kits in utility slots.

^let`s face it if they are going to give engineer weapon swap this is what its gonna look like at best

Where did you find this?

Naioby.3705:

You will barelly see 4 stacks because the last stack of might will usually last LESS than 1 second most of the time.

All Might buffs from Strength last for 10+ seconds. There is no “first” or “last” stack. The only limitation is the 2-second cooldown.

Regardless, you’re neglecting to consider boon duration buffs from Alchemy and Altruism runes that I’m pretty sure I mentioned that I use (+35%). If you just put on a Sigil of Strength and tested it yourself you’d see it gives you five stacks of Might.

Edit: I think I confused this thread with another. Either way, you should account for boon duration buffs in your math. Any serious FT Engineer is going to at least have 20% from speccing into Alchemy for Deadly Mixture.

Aristio.2784:

Phineas Poe.3018:

Aristio.2784:

Phineas Poe.3018:

Aristio.2784:

Our Tool Belt skills also need a few Stun Breakers, with the obvious choices being Elixir Gun and Slick Shoes.

Haha, what? We don’t need any more stun breakers.

Elixir R and Elixir S are already some of the best ones in the game, which respectively also offer an area revive and 3-second immunity … all in two utility slots. With zero traits.

I’d rather keep Healing Mist with the Elixir Gun, thanks.

The Elixir Gun should have a Stun Breaker so we can actually have a Stun Breaker for full Kit builds.

All classes deal with their stun breakers being utility slots. You choose to go without them. Why should Engineers be special?

Thief Sword #2.

I don’t know what you mean by this.

Aristio.2784:

Phineas Poe.3018:

Aristio.2784:

Our Tool Belt skills also need a few Stun Breakers, with the obvious choices being Elixir Gun and Slick Shoes.

Haha, what? We don’t need any more stun breakers.

Elixir R and Elixir S are already some of the best ones in the game, which respectively also offer an area revive and 3-second immunity … all in two utility slots. With zero traits.

I’d rather keep Healing Mist with the Elixir Gun, thanks.

The Elixir Gun should have a Stun Breaker so we can actually have a Stun Breaker for full Kit builds.

All classes deal with their stun breakers being utility slots. You choose to go without them. Why should Engineers be special?

Aristio.2784:

Our Tool Belt skills also need a few Stun Breakers, with the obvious choices being Elixir Gun and Slick Shoes.

Haha, what? We don’t need any more stun breakers.

Elixir R and Elixir S are already some of the best ones in the game, which respectively also offer an area revive and 3-second immunity … all in two utility slots. With zero traits.

I’d rather keep Healing Mist with the Elixir Gun, thanks.

I don’t even understand why people want this. Rifles scale with Power and Pistols scale with Condition Damage. They’re used in very different builds in completely opposite ways. Rifles work with Static Discharge and the FT whereas Pistols work with Bomb Kit and Grenade Kit.

Even if you could weapon swap it would be pointless to; you’d never use both of them. And the OP’s idea of making bundles count as weapons just doesn’t make any sense. They work just fine right now. Why fix what isn’t broken, given what all else needs to be altered with this class?

Zinwrath.2049:

The fact you’ve been using them all this time and thought they were good, would suggest you think the current FT/EG is grossly OP and deserves to have these buffs removed, no? I mean they were some pretty big buffs.

….No?

Zinwrath.2049:

If i were you, i would welcome any suggestions i might have or any future buffs the devs make to make the FT better. Because cmone…you obviously enjoy using the kit now, why would you have issue with it being more effective?

I don’t.

I’m all ears for ways to improve the kit. I think there’s definitely room for improvement; my problem is with people asserting that it’s a waste of a slot. I have not at any moment in this thread said that the Flamethrower is perfect or above reproach.

Zinwrath.2049:

My opinions are based entirely from an SPVP perspective.

Which I think in a nutshell is why continuing this conversation is a waste of time. I’m coming from a PvE perspective. You’re coming from an sPvP perspective. Our lovely friend above is coming from a WvW perspective.

We’re all talking about different areas of the game.

Zinwrath.2049:

Saying “most will want to do this” doesnt mean it cant be done with other kits, both of those traits are 10 each leaving 40 others. This is stretching out deep and doesnt support any point nor does it counter any arguement i’ve made….just like your arguement about gear.

I never said it can’t be done with other kits. Any Engineer can put 10 points in Alchemy and 10 points in Firearms for Infused Precision and Invigorating Speed.

Any Engineer can also put 30 points in Inventions and use the Grenade Kit. Just because you can do something doesn’t mean you should.

FT/EG Engineers are already putting points in Firearms and Alchemy for Juggernaut and Deadly Mixture, so it’s easiest for us to insert it into our build without sacrificing much.

Zinwrath.2049:

I can totally gear tanky with Grenades as i pointed out for the same effect. Theorycrafting what most people will do doesnt support whether something is balanced or not.

GDI. This isn’t theorycrafting.

You could wear PVT gear with the Grenade Kit, but unless you actually put 30 points in Firearms your DPS is going to be crap because you’ll have a terrible crit percentage and minimal Condition Damage.

You’re the one theorycrafting here, not me. My perspective is based on observations grounded in using the FT/EG for five months.

People throw around “theorycrafting” without understanding what it actually means. It’s so disrespectful.

Zinwrath.2049:

(particularly if you trait ALL the way into arms for that extra 200 armor…and extra damage).

Oh my goodness! ALL THE WAY into Firearms! What a pain! Why even bother! Better yet, why even bother with Elixir-Infused Bombs? Or HGH? Or Grenadier? Let’s just judge all builds by their effectiveness with zero traits spent, because that’s clearly how this game is designed to be played.

Also, I think you are SERIOUSLY NEGLECTING how powerful a 400-range knockback on a 12-second cooldown actually is. Not even a Hammerdin’s Banish is that fast—clocked at 20 seconds with Two-Handed Mastery, which requires giving up some pretty powerful traits like Writ of Merciful/Persistence and Empowering Might (which imo are much better traits).

Fireforged Trigger on the other hand is a very safe choice, considering the Flamethrower does not require Napalm Specialist to apply sustained Burning on a target.

I also think you are severely underrating how great of a skill Smoke Vent is. It’s a PBAoE Blind that has saved my Engineer from being downed A LOT of times and it can be activated while being stunned. The number of killing blows it has saved me from cannot be counted on any number of hands of those reading this post at the moment. So whatever skill it replaced all that long while ago is irrelevant to me. I use it and use it often.

This is all compounded by the fact that most if not all Flamethrower Engineers are going to spec for Infused Precision and Invigorating Speed, giving them 100% Vigor and Swiftness during combat. That means their Endurance replenishes 10% a second—or fully in 10 seconds.

It’s simple math. I’m basically neutralizing one melee attack every four seconds.

Zinwrath.2049:

Grenade, does more AE damage but has a MUCH larger range and offers more utility.
It offers the same blind at a huge range.
It offers another ae application of chill (cc).
and poison (reduce healing) that is a combo field…a much LARGER combo field. (can be used to blast finisher weaken for more cc)

So, we got one kit that is doing what the first one does, only with a lot more oppurtunities. Grenade also can apply more forms of conditions.

This might as well be my ‘Exhibit B’ filed under ‘Apples and Oranges.’

Just because Flash Grenade blinds at 10 seconds doesn’t for a second change the fact that the Flamethrower with Smoke Vent is a more durable kit.

People who gear with the Flamethrower gear differently than those with the Grenade Kit. Who is going to wear PVT armor with the Grenade Kit? Nobody. Because your Conditions are going to slap enemies like wet fish. You’re just not getting the most out of the kit without it. Yet a Flamethrower Engineer can wear Soldiers and dish out perfectly acceptable damage per second. With Emerald jewelry my Engineer clears over 40% critical hit chance with over 2,500 armor at no sacrifice of his damage output. I 100% sustain Fury, putting it over 60%.

I dish out over 2.5K damage per second with Toughness as a primary attribute in my armor and jewelry.

Does it out perform the Grenade Kit? Of course not.

But I don’t recall ever saying that the Flamethrower was better than the Grenade Kit at laying down Combo fields, so I’m not sure why you said all of this. But the Flamethrower is a much better kit to build around durability and the skills support that playstyle. There’s a reason why the Grenade Kit gets 1,200 range. Because you need it and I don’t.

Zinwrath.2049:

IF you found some weird build that uses FT/EG together for whatever purpose, more power to ya. But FT was still designed to do a lot of AE damage, and imo it isnt quite there yet.

That “weird” build has been the counterpart of the most viewed thread in GW2Guru’s Engineer sub-folder by tens of thousands of views and has been disseminated down the grape vine since October. I’m not saying this to brag or take full credit for its popularity in the slightest, but the FT/EG build has been a part of the meta for a very long time and is most certainly not “weird.”

But please, tell me what the Flamethrower was “designed to do.” Clearly I’m just a neophyte here.

Zinwrath.2049:

First, there is no correct or incorrect way to use an ability.

I think this thread as a whole is Exhibit A in proving otherwise. The amount of misinformation of what the Flamethrower is and is not capable of solely comes from the fact that a lot of players are using it and its skills improperly.

I’ve invested a lot of time into getting the FT/EG build just right, and it really bursts my bubble when I see people lambasting the kit because they used it for ten minutes and don’t get a direct translation from their experiences with the Grenade Kit. This kit and builds around it take time and practice to get used to—just like anything else in this game.

As I alluded to before, it’s like Guardians wanting their Mace to replace the Greatsword.

Zinwrath.2049:

Second, what your saying would imply the only time you should use Air blast is when they are INSIDE of you.

Third, advantages to this ability include.
Fighting mellee champ but they are pwning me and i need to buy a second for another CD to come up or energy to dodge roll.
I am near a cliff and want to knock someone off it.
A ranged champ used some unload dps ability on me and i want to knock it back in their face. (no they will not be inside of you)
And also, someone is rezzing or about to stomp my friend. I can knock them off of them.

I don’t recall ever saying that Air Blast should be used for any one specific way. If I said that I apologize, but I was responding to your remark that Air Blast will always send a target outside of range of Flame Jet—not that it is what it is to be purely used for.

Zinwrath.2049:

But if your goal is to flat out do as much damage as possible, and your fighting someone who doesnt want to fight you at mellee range, using air blast is helping them and knocking them out of the range of your primary damage.

Bolded for emphasis, because I think this is precisely where the disconnect between Flamethrower Engineers and the rest of the Engineers exists. The Flamethrower is not a kit designed to “flat out do as much damage as possible.” That’s what the Grenade Kit is supposed to do. That’s what an Explosives-specialized Bomb Kit is supposed to do.

That isn’t what the Flamethrower is supposed to do. It’s great at dishing out damage, but it isn’t meant to outperform the Grenade Kit in that regard. If “flat out do(ing) as much damage as possible” is what you want, then you will never be happy with the FT/EG build. Ever.

Zinwrath.2049:

it has no way to slow people down or stun them to prevent them from being on my face except for one knockback that puts them outside of my #1.

I just wanted to say: Flame Jet has a range of 425. Air Blast is a 400 range knockback.

Used correctly, it does not put anyone outside of your Flame Jet’s range.

SilverWF.4789:

Phineas Poe.3018:

SilverWF.4789:

Anyway, for me FT si still not woth the utility slot untill it will not buffed to the Guardian staff.

Discuss.

The Guardian Staff is a healing support weapon.

I’m laughting hard, thank you.

Why? That’s what it is. Sure it has Line of Warding, but it is for the most part a support weapon. Unless you’re trying to say something about its #1 skill’s wide arc.

Most Guardians use it purely for Empower and slap an Energy sigil on it for free Endurance. Beyond that, there’s not much point sticking to it unless you’re doing things like kiting in AC path 2.

SilverWF.4789:

Anyway, for me FT si still not woth the utility slot untill it will not buffed to the Guardian staff.

Discuss.

Uhwwuhhh? The Guardian Staff is a healing support weapon.

Not sure where you’re coming from here.

JohnDied.3476:

Seetoo.9316:

Er, no. By my logic everyone defending FT should stop so anet doesn’t get the justification to leave the crappy stuff at their crappy levels.

This is the entire sentiment of this thread, but there will be people who react aggressively towards this because they feel that we are attacking their preferred weapon.

It’s funny you say this because I feel like I am being attacked aggressively because I don’t agree that the Flamethrower is a useless kit. It’s like because I’m OK with where it’s at (though there’s room for improvement) there’s something wrong with me.

Right now with my FT/EG build I can 100% sustain a Light field (Kit Refinement) and Fury for myself (Rune of Altruism + Drop Stimulant). My damage output is fantastic, especially now that I can detonate Flame Blast when it will hit the most targets.

The only thing I’d really ask for at this point is some kind of finisher on Flame Blast.

I don’t disagree with you guys that there’s room for improvement on the Flamethrower that needs to be addressed—just that the Flamethrower’s output is more than tolerable with no button mashing and minimal kit swapping.

JohnDied.3476:

The DPS loss is not slight, the loss in utility is not slight, the loss in mobility is not slight. Flamethrower engineers make it seem slight through runes/sigils/practice. Anyone can stack 10+ stacks of might through rune/sigil/traits and boost any weapon, it’s just that most weapons don’t need to be boosted and allow players to utilize those runes/sigils/traits on other things like survival. When grenadiers put that much effort into boosting their grenades you get devastating (and broken) builds like 100nades. When flametroopers do it you get acceptable (and broken) flamethrower builds.

Same thing can be said of HGH pistol builds. In a game that’s all about one character being able to do a little of everything, if you have to dedicate everything about your character into boosting one weapon set then you have a broken build. Regardless of it being effective in WvW, it’s still broken and the devs will try to “balance” it (just look at the kit refinement nerf brought on by 100nades).

Skilled players will always make something look good, even if it’s a weapon or build that’s terrible for the character and the class.

I’ll take that last bit as a complement, but the fact of the matter is that the Flamethrower doesn’t require dedicating “everything” into boosting it.

What are the traits that benefit it? In Firearms and Alchemy. Which is used in practically every build. The original 0/30/0/20/20 split of the FT/EG build allowed far more versatility than what is offered with 30 points in Explosives, which benefited solely the Grenade Kit. Bomb Kits don’t need more than 20 points, so you’re essentially spending 10 points for one kit and nothing else; 30 points in Firearms gives me Coated Bullets, Juggernaut, and Go For The Eyes—which all have their uses.

Who puts 30 points in Explosives and goes for Autodefense Bomb Dispenser? The Bomb Kit Engineer is a difficult pill to swallow because Elixir-Infused Bombs requires 30 points in a tree that is built to modify our weakest area: turrets. Juggernaut instead is in the Firearms tree, which is filled with traits useful for any build, which modifies 300 Precision and 300 Condition Damage.

How is that crippling? I clear 60% critical hit chance with PVT armor and Emeralds with 100% sustained Fury.

Seetoo.9316:

Now it’s FT1 untraited? Now you’re saying FT1 doesn’t need the 50 trait point investment?

I would actually argue that the Flamethrower is now a 60 trait point investment, with Incendiary Powder in the Explosives tree for additional Burning damage (with a 10% damage increase to Flame Jet).

I do think a 10/30/0/20/10 split is the new meta for the FT.

Kimbald.2697:

But keep in mind that when it comes to the dev’s balancing damage across kits, that ‘fun’ can indeed NOT be a determining factor to give one kit less effective damage than another.

I can agree with that.

I just personally come from the perspective that the Flamethrower doesn’t deal as much damage as the Grenade Kit simply because it’s a more durable kit. Why should the Flamethrower deal as much damage as the Grenade Kit when the Grenade Kit is a significantly more vulnerable setup? The Flamethrower satisfies the middle ground between the Grenade Kit (full-offensive) and the Tool Kit (full-defensive).

To put it another way, do you see Guardians demanding the Mace does as much damage as a Greatsword? Of course not. It is used differently and satisfies a different playstyle.

While it’s true that there are escape skills available to the Engineer regardless of what kit you’re using, you just can’t overlook the 200 Toughness that the Flamethrower gets from Juggernaut.

You also can’t overlook the fact that the Grenade Kit scales best by stacking both Condition Damage and Power. Thankfully Might does a good job of that, but I come from the opinion that “defensive” insignias that have Condition Damage (like Carrion/Rabid) are just not anywhere near as good as providing survivability as the Soldier insignia is, which applies both Toughness and Vitality. There is no such insignia currently in the game that has Condition Damage as either a Major/Minor attribute with Vitality and Toughness, which can make stat allocation kind of difficult unless you’re going full glass cannon with Zerker/Rampager and Ruby. Which ultimately only re-instills the fact that the Grenade Kit is our Fire Attunement.

Seetoo.9316:

But I’m not writing it off as “useless” because it is “not fun”. I’m writing it off as “useless” because it is “mathematically inferior” to everything else we have. That’s pretty much why I’ve been using math.

I’ll quote JohnDied for something he said that shared my sentiments.

The reason why engineers bash the flamethrower is because we can’t depend on it to do anything better than another weapon, we consider it a waste of development time.

The reason why engineers defend the flamethrower is because it “looks cool” (my edit “feels fun”)…

Great

Because a lot of it does have to do with “feel.”

Why did you buy the car you did? Over others? The five-star crash rating? Maybe. But some cars simply run better than others. There are intangibles. You had a certain “feel” for one.

I don’t get that with the Grenade Kit. I don’t like having to constantly aim. I don’t like having to deal with the air time. I don’t like having to deal with having no auto attack.

I just don’t like the Grenade Kit. I never did. I never will. I don’t know if not liking a kit is a perfectly legitimate reason not to use it, but it’s how I decide how I play the game.

Hundred Blades is an amazing skill for Warriors, but I hate using the greatsword so I don’t use it. I don’t really much care if I’m dishing out the most damage in my group. What matters most is that I’m having fun.

And I have fun with the Flamethrower despite the slight DPS loss. I think the biggest tragedy in this thread is the perpetuation that there is some massive difference in damage between the Flamethrower and the Grenade Kit when there really isn’t—and has already been illustrated in this thread.

I’d agree with you guys if running the FT crippled your group, and that going for “look and feel” affected group cohesion. But it doesn’t. I’ve run countless dungeon runs with my build with just as much success as I do with my Grenade Kit. The impact of running the FT over the Grenade Kit is greatly exaggerated, and that is my problem with this thread.

SilverWF.4789:

Phineas Poe.3018:

I’m sorry, but this is strictly a L2P issue. If you can’t handle Retaliation/Confusion in this game, regardless of class/build you’re using, you simply are not very good at this game.

Phineas Poe.3018, show us, master, how to handle retaliation at the invisible zerg? Proove your own words ^^

I’m not talking about WvW; but even if I was, if we were dealing with culling issues here, and you couldn’t see your target, then why does it matter what build you’re using in the first place?

I think you’re right to identify that it’s hard to defend against Retaliation against a target you can’t see, but that is something any build/class would have to deal with.

I also find it interesting that the minute you quote my post and respond to it, it is reported and disappears.

Silentsins.3726:

Phineas Poe.3018:

Well the funny thing is that you have plenty of room to face your target while kiting them. Just look at the skills you have at your disposal with the FT (and EG):

400-range Knockback (12 second cooldown)
PBAoE Blind (16 second cooldown)
400-range Leap (12 second cooldown)
3-second Cripple (6.5 second cooldown)
100% Vigor (Invigorating Speed)
100% Swiftness (Infused Precision)

Coming from someone who also has a Guardian, I actually think it’s much easier kiting on my Engineer. Especially since I have room in my build to slot the Net Turret as my third utility.

Which is pretty comperable to other loadouts… except other loadouts don’t have the drawback of having to face your target.

Except the Grenade Kit is actually relatively terrible at kiting, offering only a 2-second chill every 16 seconds (20 untraited). The Grenade Kit is our Fire Attunement. It is a damage-dealing build. Regardless of whether or not one can throw them behind oneself doesn’t change that fact. Only the Bomb Kit really matches the Flamethrower/Elixir Gun in control.

But the conversation wasn’t about how good the Flamethrower is as a kiting kit compared to other kits. You simply talked about how it was difficult to kite with it even though the amount of leaps/knockbacks you have at your disposal, especially if you’re using the Rifle in conjunction, which offers an additional leap, snare, and knockback, is really more than enough.

The FT/EG Engineer has more than plenty options to keep enemies at bay, regardless of whether I have to face my target or not.

Silentsins.3726:

The “durable/safe” aspect of the FT is completely negated with even half-way decent kiting skills. Even on my war and guard, I’m rarely standing toe-to-toe with mobs even with melee weapons; using PvP reflexes to dance in/out of melee range between attacks lets you solo group pve mobs quite easily even without any ranged weapons slotted at all. Since the targeting on flame jet and flame blast makes you face your target, you can’t really kite as effectively.

Well the funny thing is that you have plenty of room to face your target while kiting them. Just look at the skills you have at your disposal with the FT (and EG):

400-range Knockback (12 second cooldown)
PBAoE Blind (16 second cooldown)
400-range Leap (12 second cooldown)
3-second Cripple (6.5 second cooldown)
100% Vigor (Invigorating Speed)
100% Swiftness (Infused Precision)

Coming from someone who also has a Guardian, I actually think it’s much easier kiting on my Engineer. Especially since I have room in my build to slot the Net Turret as my third utility.

Terrahero.9358:

It can be designed in much better ways to do this. But instead of making it a proper ability, and dealing with the dissapating ball of volatile magma, they make us press the button. Why cant they just fix it?

Well I like being able to detonate it whenever I want to. Especially when farming events like Plinx, it’s better to make sure you’re hitting the most targets as possible—not just the first one.

Terrahero.9358:

But instead of just doing it in a proper way, in a constructive means, they go dicking around the bush with such silly mechanics.

Because believe it or not, the Engineer is a very complicated class. Giving us one very powerful mechanic can really make this class the best one in the game considering whatever else an Engineer has at his disposal at any given time (see: the recent Elementalist nerf, the Grenade Kit nerf).

This is one of the cases where it’s probably best they use a scalpel and not a sledgehammer (as someone else alluded to above).

Terrahero.9358:

“its a buff, but only if you learn how to use it! hoho!” Just buff stuff, this profession as a whole is gimped enough as it is with way to many contrived, artifical, skillcliffs as it is. And then they go around adding even more. Meanwhile, a Thief presses 2 buttons and collects his loot.

I’m not really sure where you’re coming from here. Just to explain: I use the FT/EG build. I am equipped with dual pistols. I don’t use them. I use them so I have access to two sigils which boost the damage output of my Flamethrower. Of my Flamethrower. Not my pistols. Not my Elixir Gun. And definitely not my third utility slot, which is usually Elixir C/R/B or Utility Goggles. Depends on whatever I’m doing.

So the only time I’m dishing out damage is when I am using my Flamethrower. Look at the 1-5 skills. Which ones do damage? Flame Jet and Flame Blast. I use Napalm for group buffs and place them on allies, not on enemies. When I am doing DPS, and not providing support with the Elixir Gun, I am using those two skills.

For the Grenade Kit, it is no different. The mass of your damage is going to come from the #1 and #2 skills.

So where is this elaborate system of hoops of fire I have to jump through to deal DPS with the Engineer? I’m all ears, man.

Penguin.5197:

What we need most is a gap closer, since we don’t have one (Doing jump shot on rifle will actually slow you down if you already got swiftness on).

Penguin, meet Magnet.

Number one reason I always carry the Tool Kit with me in WvW, beyond the three-second immunity and AoE cripple.

OmegaCael.1450:

Give FT 1500 range and perhaps FT has a place over grenade kit.

Why does it need to be used at 1500 range to have a place over the Grenade Kit? The Grenade Kit is great at what it does, but you are no where near as durable/safe at close range.

The Gates Assassin.9827:

4) Super Elixir buff

No. It’s not twice as powerful. The way they wrote it is very misleading. It just scales a little better with healing power. If you are using this with grenade kit, just think about what you really need (With kit refinement spells). Generally, if you have elixir gun equipped, you should be using the Elixir Gun’s kit refinement. If you aren’t, why even keep Elixir Gun around?

Well there’s more to the EG than that. Fumigate removes conditions and Elixir F is a great cripple skill.

Also you can now buff your groups with Retaliation doing Super Elixir → Acid Bomb, now that Acid Bomb is a Blast Finisher.

Seetoo.9316:

So 0 – 150 is what makes melee. That must mean 151 is ranged. I guess that makes d/d elems ranged. Ranged is at least 900. You only have 2 choices: melee or ranged. This is black and white. There is no grey.

I think if you’re close enough to where you’re getting hit by a Warrior swinging his weapon, you’re in “melee range.”

450 is well outside of that.

I would also modify your classifications as something being short range, medium range, or long range.

The Flamethrower is a medium range weapon. It is not a “melee” weapon. Every weapon in the game can be used at 150 range, so I think that’s a pretty deceptive marker. Nothing is stopping you from using Hip Shot at 150 range. Some might say that is where the Rifle is intended to be used. Yet it can be traited to be fired at 1,200 range; so is the Rifle a melee weapon or a range weapon? Is it both? Or is it just how you use it?

Because when you use the Flamethrower at 450 range you are not getting hit by any pointy objects any more than you would be with the Rifle at 1,200 range.

I also disagree that “there is no grey” considering I would argue that the Engineer is a pretty grey-area class on the whole.

SilverWF.4789:

At the WvW there is no goal to kill ONE SINGLE target! I must to deal MASSIVE DPS – how the hell you can’t see what I’m talking about?

Oh, I can. The problem is that you can’t tell that no one else cares about WvW.

You do realize you basically just quoted a post Vyxion wrote about using the Flamethrower in PvE over the Grenade Kit and then rambled on about how you need to burn more than one target at a time in WvW.

This isn’t the WvW folder. Please take off the blinders and stop altering this conversation into WvW-only utility of the Flamethrower.

Thanks.

SilverWF.4789:

Mechanics of the “bla-bla by crit (N sec cooldown)” triggers/food/sigils.
It will works only at ONE target from ALL, affected by AOE. You can use FT toolbelt – it will burn only 1, maybe 2 targets (coz only 3 hits, blocks/misses/evades included, lol). Guardian procs – only 1 target or zero (the same as for IA but only 1 hit). Path 1 trait – only 1 target (coz 3 sec CD). Napalm – very easy to evade from it’s lol-low area and, for sure, noone with brain will not stay in it’s flame.

I’m repeating this for you at the third time – what’s wrong with your brain?

I never said anything about Napalm. I was talking about Napalm Specialist, which is a trait in the Firearms tree (20% increase in Burning duration). Napalm may be an option to burn multiple targets, but not everyone here cares about how viable skills are in WvW alone. Is this the WvW forum? Please point me to the Engineer folder.

So it only burns one target. That target still has 100% Burning applied to it the entire time I’m using the Flamethrower or near to it, which is where I took issue with your statement.

SilverWF.4789:

Vyxion.6358:

with the flamethrower being a mad crit proccing machine and with that +10% on burning targets buff i started thinking about taking up points in explosives again for the burn on crit trait. Increasing total burn uptime in such a manner the +10% should basically be up 24/7.

Try to read that trait description more accurate, than think about it’s usefulness for the FT

I’ve already responded to this point.

Anyone properly geared to run the Flamethrower is going to have at least 40% crit percentage, if not nearer to 50%. Even with 6/6 Soldier’s insignia armor, which adds zero Precision, just from wearing Emerald jewelry and having 30 points in Firearms you’ll have 44% crit.

That means that, on average, out of the 10 strikes Flame Jet channels over 2.5 seconds, 4-5 of them will crit.

With a 33% chance to Burn on crit, that means you’re pretty much going to have that proc every time you shoot a Flame Jet. 2-second Burn. Every 2.5 second channel. And then there’s a 1-second Burn at the end of each Flame Jet. So you’ve got 3 seconds of Burning for each Flame Jet channel.

The 3-second cool down on Incendiary Powder doesn’t matter, because it takes about half a second before you start your next Flame Jet channel. Like I iterated before, you get about 5-6 Flame Jet streams per 15 seconds.

And if you’re running defensively and don’t feel comfortable with where your crit percentage is at, you can use Napalm Specialist or Condition Duration food to compensate. But this is not necessary.

Do I need to make a YouTube video about this too? Maybe I should start making a list.

arrownin.3128:

So I like to do this check in every couple of months to see how Engineers are doing to see if I should actually touch my lvl 80 one again.

What’s the diagnosis?

Flamethrower got two huge buffs. Flame Blast can now be detonated making it less difficult to work into your rotation and Flame Jet receives a flat 10% damage increase when a target is burning. It also doesn’t glitch out anymore at stationary world targets in my experience (like the burrows in AC). Did a run last night and it was much easier to hit them.

Tool Kit got a buff. Pry Bar now applies 5 stacks of Confusion instead of 3. I may start working it into my sPvP/WvW rotation more often now. Probably will still leave it behind in PvE.

Kit Refinement was nerfed with a 10 second global cool down on all procs. This requires Engineers to be much more mindful of when and how they swap their kits. Med Kit appears to be unaffected by this cool down, so you can swap to it freely. You can still sustain Super Elixir 100% of the time, but can no longer simultaneously have access to the FT’s “Flame Burst” condition removal.

Deployable Turrets is supposedly finally fixed. Haven’t checked this one myself.