Guild Wars 2

Honestly, I’m having a lot of fun with it. Fights actually drag out a bit longer now, and winning isn’t just about getting the drop on someone but by managing cooldowns better. And because fights tend to last longer, holding points and decapping points in Conquest is all the more important.

I also find it humorous that in some threads you have complaints about rev and dh being way too strong, whereas right next to it you have complaints about temp, chrono, and druid being too tanky.

I feel when more than half the professions of the game are being complained about, things must be all right.

JoshuaRAWR.4653:

Phineas Poe.3018:

JoshuaRAWR.4653:

Phineas Poe.3018:

Scrapper? Tempest?

Scrapper and Tempest are strong, but they don’t kitten out skill for minimal effort, you need to have some form of intelligence to actually play well with one.

I play scrapper myself, and a bad one is easily identifable because they just melt, same with tempests, good ones are scary, bad ones, just melt.

If scrapper and tempest are, as you say, “strong” when well played, then that makes seven out of nine professions viable in top-end PvP.

So what’s the issue?

I think you’ve missed the entire point of this thread.

Hence why I asked the question.

JoshuaRAWR.4653:

Phineas Poe.3018:

Scrapper? Tempest?

Scrapper and Tempest are strong, but they don’t kitten out skill for minimal effort, you need to have some form of intelligence to actually play well with one.

I play scrapper myself, and a bad one is easily identifable because they just melt, same with tempests, good ones are scary, bad ones, just melt.

If scrapper and tempest are, as you say, “strong” when well played, then that makes seven out of nine professions viable in top-end PvP.

So what’s the issue?

Scrapper? Tempest?

Bwadark.2519:

Phineas Poe.3018:

You just drop fire fields on cooldown while trying to maximize your shrapnel grenades per minute.

What’s hard to understand?

The build itself is advertised with a 37 step damage rotation not including the buttons pressed for weapon swaps.

Which mean all the damage calculations and claims that this build can do are based around the rotation?

Ignoring that rotation and spamming shrapnel grenades whenever possible, surely that lowers the optimised DPS and the ‘most damaging build’ loses it’s claim?

Also in terms of ’what’s hard to understand’, again the build is advertised with a 37 step damage rotation and emphasises on cycling through all your kits and using the high damage abilities.

You are literally the only person that has ever said, fire fields, nades press 2.

That 37 step damage rotation is spreadsheet DPS. No one will be able to actually mimic that rotation in an actual fight, and Nike said that himself when he originally put out the video where that rotation was pulled from.

Almost all of your sustained damage comes from burns and bleeds. That means Blowtorch, Fire Bomb, Napalm, Incendiary Ammo, Shrapnel Grenade, and Grenade Barrage.

Using things like Poison Dart Volley and Gas Grenade are filler skills used between Shrapnel Grenade. Don’t get it twisted; your damage is all coming from your burns and bleeds, and that “optimal” rotation deals only fractionally more damage than if you just auto-attacked between the skills I listed above.

Really, too many people overthink this stuff. It’s 2x Shrapnel Grenades for every Fire Bomb, slotting Napalm and Blowtorch in as they come up. I’m tired of the stigma surrounding the condition build, because it only further incentivizes threads like these to come up, where people say only “5%” can do the build correctly.

I taught two fresh engineers the build using this exact advice, and two hours later we killed the Vale Guardian with 1:30 remaining on the clock. One of them was using exotic armor and trinkets.

Allie.4925:

I’m not a fan of the “meta”, because optimistically thinking, only about 5% of players can play it perfectly, which is what is required for it to actually be as good as it is.

You just drop fire fields on cooldown while trying to maximize your shrapnel grenades per minute.

What’s hard to understand?

Try this.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vdAQJAqalcTh6rY7Ww6KQ7FLsFF4HWiBQYKeRvmYHNFPBA-TJhHwADeAAAOBAj2fwYZAA

Bwadark.2519:

Why do you ask?

I would think it’s pretty important that builds are validated through success.

Have you guys actually killed Vale Guardian with these builds? Or is this just theorycraft?

We tried this, but the net turret just as commonly fires at the wall as it does the mob, even after you’ve targeted the mob and started attacking it.

If you do the split strat (2 groups of 3 rather than 1 group of 6) you’ll find that Freeze Grenade, Glue Shot, Glue Bomb, and Endothermic Shell is more than enough alongside a proc or two of Shrapnel.

Don’t forget that, with Explosives, blasting your healing turret is a knockback as well.

Condi rifle? Wut?

The hammer offers a lot of CC, which might be useful for some groups that are lacking in Berserkers or Revenants. Breaking bars is a huge aspect to defeating bosses in the raid, but so is damage. I could see an argument made for hammer under certain compositions, but I think most engineers should still run pistol/pistol whether they’re tanking or not.

I feel this is some cruel joke. First EOTM and now this.

Why can’t our FT straight face-pummel like theirs?

Terrahero.9358:

It’s like you’re trying to sell the Scrapper, but it’s not very convincing. You’re not using the Hammer or any of the new skills.

So the message seems to be “Hey guys, you can technically play the Scrapper because the traitline is a valid third choice, but dont use the heal, the elite, the utility skills or the hammer.”

No, Scrapper is a wash in pve.

I mean, if you want to define playing “scrapper” as running five gyros and a hammer, that’s up to you. But I killed the Vale Guardian and I got Gorseval to 50% last night with this build, and just helped another guild group earlier kill the Vale Guardian again with two engineers running this build while I was on my warrior.

Not every new specialization is going to be a gigantic departure, but they each contribute something new and useful. Most Dragonhunters still run greatsword + scepter/focus in the raid, and most Berserkers are still camping greatsword for Phalanx Strength.

PWNcakesAndROFLs.8263:

Also, I’m not sure if it was a build editor mistake, but I noticed that you where running Shaped charge over short fuse. Any reasoning behind that choice?

Oh, yeah. I’ll fix that right now.

Can this be taken somewhere else, please?

There are enough threads debating our function gyro mechanic. The purpose of this thread is to talk about the scrapper in accordance to raids, where it is meaningful, so your discussion about it being meaningful for “most of the content” is really off-topic.

Dahkeus.8243:

The issue isn’t Shrapnel, so much as it is that Bleeding, like many other conditions, is just really far behind burning damage and in comparison is pretty weak.

It’s really not, actually.

Burning is very bursty, so while you’ll hit 13K or whatever burns when firing everything off at the same time, it’s not sustained. Bleed stacks ramp up to 6K+, and they pretty much stay that way for the entirety of the fight so long as you keep using Shrapnel Grenade and Grenade Barrage on CD.

I don’t remember where the spreadsheet data is, but I remember that bleed stacking and burn stacking DPS was very close to one another when taken at 30+ second intervals.

Ardid.7203:

Furthermore, the Rez function largely gets its value from the L2P moment where we are. Right now the (actual encarnation) F-Gyro is on the most brilliant spot it will ever be: it can only go down now, because as the days pass, people will be more and more able to do the new content without dying.

While this is true, I think it’s important to mention that this is only the first raid wing to be released. There will be a constant influx of new content, especially considering the second raid wing is already under development. The goal posts will continually be shifting, so there will never be this point where the majority of the player population will be able to do content without dying.

wolfyrik.2017:

As I said, I don’t see how scrappers limited utility in raids is anything other than sheer luck. If it’s design, then it’s so myopic as to be poor design.

Okay buddy.

Spart.6578:

Do you think that Scrapper tanks could be viable in there Phineas? I know that condi engis easily have a place there, but was wondering how well a Scrapper would fare as a tank, assuming you have enough dps to hit enrage timers.

I don’t see why not! My group has a druid tank, but I’m sure scrapper could do just as well.

morrolan.9608:

Phineas Poe.3018:

Hello.

My guild group killed the Vale Guardian last night. This was the build I was running. I would link a video but I’m not sure Brazil has one up yet.

Thanks Phineas I was watching Brazil’s stream but on a phone so it wasn’t clear. Why use perfectly weighted when you don’t run hammer? Just for the stab?

Stability for Mass Momentum. I was spending a lot of time beyond 600 distance of the boss (and by extension facets and PS stacks) because of lightning orbs, so I was almost never at 25 might. Mass Momentum doesn’t do much, but it is something to help that.

wolfyrik.2017:

Not to be a jerk, but if they did a great job, where’s your hammer and gyros? Is it also a great job if 2 of the minor traits are only of any use in one or two game modes? Also where are all the skills to take advantage of Impact Savant? It’s just as worthless in this build as it is in every other. According to your build you’re making use of only one minor trait, the others do almost nothing. Is that an “amazing job”?

Because you asked where my hammer is, I guess it’s worth mentioning that the hammer has been pivotal in crushing all open world Heart of Thorns content with my guild, including our Chak Gerent kills. You’re correct to point out that I didn’t use it here. I don’t see why that’s a problem or a flaw of the profession specialization.

CC is a huge aspect of most open world bosses to the point where it’s oftentimes better to take the lesser damage weapon in favor of more easily breaking bars. I mentioned that my raid group didn’t have a chronomancer, but we did have three revenants with staff as their second weapon set. My Slick Shoes was more insurance than necessity, but I can imagine in some raid comps (and fights) it’s much more important to have engineers quickly CC targets. To this end, combining Thunderclap and Rocket Charge is just as good as anything at breaking bars, and only is that much stronger when used in conjunction with Slick Shoes.

I do agree that Impact Savant without the hammer is pretty pointless, but it seems silly to pull one minor trait out of the tree and draw conclusions about my entire build. Every single major trait I chose has utility, and the key point of my post is to point out that you can literally swap Tools with Scrapper at no noticeable damage loss while gaining the added utility of the function gyro. That Scrapper offers situational usefulness at no real cost is precisely the point.

Dahkeus.8243:

However, one thing with your build…you have Perfectly Weighted even though you’re not using a hammer. Is that a mistake? I don’t see any benefit to stability in the Vale fight.

To trigger Mass Momentum might stacks.

I don’t follow.

Shrapnel is on hit, not on crit. Your crit chance has nothing to do with it.

Hello.

My guild group killed the Vale Guardian last night. This was the build I was running. I would link a video but I’m not sure Brazil has one up yet.

There’s nothing particularly controversial or outstanding about it. I basically merged a lot of the ideas that made the Sinister build great while modifying it slightly to address a few particular weaknesses of the baseline triple-kit build.

A lot may be wondering: why Scrapper? Truthfully we began the raid running Tools, as Streamlined Kits and Adrenal Implant are significant mobility and survivability gains. But it’s important to identify as well that there’s very few damage gains in Tools that you’ll find valuable (or even reliable) in raids.

Excessive Energy is really your biggest boost, but you are very rarely going to be sitting at full endurance. On paper Tools still seems to be the better option with Mechanized Deployment giving you reduced cooldowns on Grenade Barrage and Incendiary Ammo, but this is kind of a wash. Just based on what engineers primarily do in the fight you will have a hard time throwing Grenade Barrage off cooldown regardless, especially during the second and third phases of the fight where the Vale Guardian and the lightning orb will often spawn well outside 1200 range of each other.

Mass Momentum does give a flat, baseline power increase (about 100 power, to be exact) and gives a little extra might to ourselves since you spend so much time evading attacks in the raid, so while Scrapper is primarily a defensive tree, there’s some benefits to rolling with it.

Now that you can no longer blind seekers with Flash Shell, being able to outsustain their damage is critical. This is where Recovery Matrix really helps, as the Healing Turret (if picked up) always matches up with the 15 second rotation of lightning orbs. So again, while Tools might seem like better damage on paper, in actuality I have to recline on the old tried and true: dead DPS is no DPS, and downed DPS is reduced DPS.

The other primary question some might be asking is: why Slick Shoes? Since BWE3 when we finally got our hands on Scrapper, Slick Shoes has seemed like a natural fit. Slick Shoes and its super speed applicator seems like an obvious choice for PvP when taking Rapid Regeneration. But even in PvE, Slick Shoes has significant utility in breaking bars better than most skills out there.

The truth of the matter is that, while the Vale Guardian is a DPS race, there are significant CC checks that reveal themselves in the boss’s third phase. If you are not breaking its bar within seconds, you will not keep your raid group out of the “hot lava” that spawns on rotation over 66% of the room’s area. Super Speed also naturally benefits your ability to stay mobile in this fight, as our primary responsibility for the majority of the fight is reaching every lightning orb that spawns.

I also cannot stress enough how huge the function gyro is as a resurrection option. There are many times where the raid literally would have wiped if we did not have gyros at the ready to res people that got teleported and downed away from the raid. When a video becomes available you’ll see what I mean.

The other final major reason why I took Slick Shoes is because Napalm is a very thin strip AoE, and even the best tank can’t keep the Vale Guardian in it 100% of the time. I think that final slot is really up to personal judgment; determine whether your group needs more CC or more DPS and go from there. For example, if we had a Chronomancer in the group I probably wouldn’t have bothered with SS … but I similarly would have hesitated on taking the FT again. I feel like there’s other utilities that could shine in raids (maybe Elixir U?) but that’s something that’ll be determined over time.

Not trying to reinvent the wheel here or anything, but I just wanted to offer an alternate perspective to the triple-kit meta that has seemed to re-emerge from DnT and NA kills.

I hope that naysayers to the Scrapper spend a bit more time in raids before they reach a final judgment, as I really do think Ireneo and the rest of the balance team did an amazing job giving us utility beyond damage. Having a lot of fun in raids so far, as well!

All the best.

Thunderclap is a lightning field. When you blast lightning fields, you get swiftness. Just blasting your Healing Turret and Acid Bomb gives you like 20 seconds of swiftness, which covers most of its CD.

Elixir B is a great utility open world, so combine that with it and you’re easily running perma swiftness without being forced to take Streamlined Kits or Mecha Legs.

Manuhell.2759:

Whereas the necro’s version can just get all the stacks in a few attacks. Beside not needing to get hit to begin with.

They also have to trait into Death Magic to get it, which is kind of a kitten tree in general unless you’re running a minion build (and that has all kinds of drawbacks on its own).

Daralii.8940:

Phineas Poe.3018:

I understand why both of these traits were nerfed. I don’t have a problem with either of them.

PvP tears and ANet’s unwillingness to split skills.

You can still easily cap 25 might with an elixir build, and you can still tank as a Scrapper in PvE with Adaptive Armor.

Neither of these nerfs change anything for PvE.

I understand why both of these traits were nerfed. I don’t have a problem with either of them.

incisorr.9502:

has it? no matter how you look at it , one guy having access to skills against one guy not having access to skills is unfair

Dude, it’s a freaking expansion.

The definition of P2W really has changed over the years.

Rastel.9157:

I can tell you one thing…my HGH cond enginner have not realy changed since launch it seems. I only play www and public event pve it must be said.

They renamed a few skills and tweaked here and there and moved something etc….but once that was sorted (by the help of fellow forum members) is was basically the same build i had before…just shorter range of pistol attacks:( but overall i got better at survival due to passive tweaks etc…

Well, HGH is a significantly stronger trait from its original version. The might is the same, but now you get 20% increased durations and 20% reduced cooldowns on all elixir skills. And HGH now works with kit-based elixir skills like Acid Bomb.

I would say it’s pretty much a mandatory trait in PvP/WvW and when soloing in PvE.

EnderKid.2567:

Ever since the removal of the hobosacks, and the arrival of the toilet paper roll and the bag of onions back in June 23rd, we’ve been promised that these placeholder models would be scrapped and we’d get the real deal.

Where was this said?

I remember people assuming that these were placeholders, but I don’t recall ArenaNet ever confirming that.

lorddarkflare.9186:

shion.2084:

Phineas Poe.3018:

For raids I’m planning on tanking with this: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vdAQFASlUUhSsYtWwPLQ7FLsFFdwP8JPYIWiBg4GVF3IA-TxRBABSr+DS7PQtyvmfAAAcBAcWHQaKBJFAM7qA-e

If I’m not tanking, I’ll probably not run Scrapper.

How are you getting the speed in this that triggers both your vigor boost and your sustain trait in scrapper??

Heavy armor exploit from Firearms.

Correct. Whether you’re tanking in Sinister or Rabid, you will always have good crit chance for good HAE uptime resulting in permanent swiftness and—by extension—permanent vigor from Invigorating Speed and healing from Rapid Regeneration. My build is kind of like a franken baby of the P/P HGH build I’m using in PvP and the currently-meta Sinister engineer put together with a few tweaks.

A few things will probably be changed in the coming weeks, like whether to take protection or more super speed in that first Scrapper trait slot, or if to take Mod Ammo over Incendiary Powder, but I’m pretty happy with what I have right now and will run something very similar to that on raid launch day (if I do end up needing to tank). Truthfully I only had a couple hours with the raid boss, so I never got beyond the second phase, so it’s hard to say if this is better or worse than Dom’s build for the Vale Guardian and for future bosses.

Overall, Firearms is honestly the best tree to pair with Scrapper, as High Caliber and No Scope are two really strong damage modifiers that greatly benefit from using the hammer. And while Juggernaut is still undertuned, if they can balance it correctly with Mass Momentum that will also be an option down the road. There’s also always Modified Ammo, so in the long run I imagine Scrapper+Firearms will be ideal for most bosses.

Adamantium.3682:

Phineas Poe.3018:

The only thing you really lose out taking Scrapper over Tools is the 10% damage buff with full endurance and Takedown Round. It works just fine with Explosives and Firearms, because nothing in Tools really synergizes with them either.

That said, unless you plan on tanking, I don’t think you should take Scrapper.

I agree, you’re not going to out damage the current meta for power Engi. Which makes sense, because Scrapper is not a damage spec.

I’m responding in the context of the thread, which to me seems like it’s asking how to get the most damage out of the Scrapper. From my experience in BWE3 replacing Explosives with Alchemy gave me a lot more damage due to the boon spam. It was counterintuitive, but it worked and I remember some other people commenting that they found the same.

I see some Firearms/Explosives/Scrapper builds being posted that may be theorycrafted to be the best DPS for Scrapper (just replace Tools with Scrapper right?) but it doesn’t seem to play out that way. If those posting the builds did not have the chance to try them they may want to try another option when they see that build doesn’t do very much damage. This was just my experience that seemed to be corroborated by some other people during BWE3.

Boon spam from what? Hidden Flask?

It doesn’t give you any damage bonus boons you won’t already have. Revenants give perma fury around them, and might has always been relatively saturated in PvE. Comps will get a bit weird to compensate for 10 players versus only 5, but I don’t think it’s necessary for engineers to go into Alchemy unless they plan on tanking to get Invigorating Speed and Iron Blooded.

No need to reinvent the wheel here, guys. Sinister engineer will still be tops, and you need to run good (not “fun”) builds to be effective in raids. In a month or so after the raid wing has been completed by a good percentage of organized guilds, maybe we can start messing around with Scrapper DPS, but I think you guys do yourself a disservice to even consider it right now.

Adamantium.3682:

I don’t think Scrapper goes well with Explosives/Firearms. I wasn’t able to make a build that did decent damage using that in BWE3. If those of you thinking that is your build are going purely on theorycrafting and didn’t get to use it, don’t be disappointed if it doesn’t turn out as good as you think it might.

The best that I found was Firearms/Alchemy with Scrapper. It’s weird because obviously Explosives is a DPS line and Alchemy is not, but Alchemy definitely added more to damage for me.

The only thing you really lose out taking Scrapper over Tools is the 10% damage buff with full endurance and Takedown Round. It works just fine with Explosives and Firearms, because nothing in Tools really synergizes with them either.

That said, unless you plan on tanking, I don’t think you should take Scrapper.

PWNcakesAndROFLs.8263:

Phineas Poe.3018:

For raids I’m planning on tanking with this: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vdAQFASlUUhSsYtWwPLQ7FLsFFdwP8JPYIWiBg4GVF3IA-TxRBABSr+DS7PQtyvmfAAAcBAcWHQaKBJFAM7qA-e

If I’m not tanking, I’ll probably not run Scrapper.

This looks like a sweet set-up for a tanking and doing some sweet DPS! I also love the use of the Undead runes. Though, why not bring P/P instead? You can always swap FT for TK, if you want blocks.

Hey man.

I think you could use any weapon, really. I just thought hammer worked best with tanking with the 20 cd block and the triple leap finisher. I know Dom actually tanked with P/S, but he was also running Inventions.

For raids I’m planning on tanking with this: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vdAQFASlUUhSsYtWwPLQ7FLsFFdwP8JPYIWiBg4GVF3IA-TxRBABSr+DS7PQtyvmfAAAcBAcWHQaKBJFAM7qA-e

If I’m not tanking, I’ll probably not run Scrapper.

Just wanted to point out that I spent a lot of time testing the viability of Juggernaut with Scrapper. The trait synergy on paper seems nice, but you end up losing too much damage camping the FT to where it is never really worth it.

It’s also important to point out you can easily cap out your might at 25 with just HGH, so the whole idea behind comboing Juggernaut and Mass Momentum is kind of pointless.

Ricky Rouse.1583:

As someone who has plenty of SPvP games on an Engineer, you are lying to yourself if you don’t know why people get mad at Engineers:

“Oh kitten I missed my combo, guess i’m in some trouble…

JUST KIDDING

ELIXIR S, HEALING TURRET, GEAR SHIELD, THROW ELIXIR S, TRAITED ELIXIR S, HEALING TURRET, GEAR SHIELD, ELIXIR S, THROW ELIXIR S, GEAR SHIELD, ELIXIR S, MIST FORM, GEAR SHIELD

XXXx2007epicengiexxxXXX: Outplayed"

Elixir S and Gear Shield need to be removed from the game. And before you say “ur just kitten” almost all my games in SPvP are on Engineer to the point where I can’t really play any other class. If you play Engineer only to cycle invulnerability while waiting for Healing Turret and hundred nades to cool down like a cheese salesman you should just go play Mesmer or Thief, I heard they have an opening on the “huge coward who think’s he’s good” position.

You aren’t “outplaying” anyone. You aren’t even playing the game. You’re playing the waiting game.

Now tell us how you really feel.

ShahinSafavi.6821:

The issue with this model of thinking is that not everyone has access to a consistent group of fellow players that consistently fall into the meta – so attempting to play a meta build in that context can be outright detrimental, as everyone else’s stuff doesn’t fall into place around it.

For instance – there exist two people in my guild that consistently play Warrior, and one of them is on a F2P account. They plan to switch over eventually, but they won’t have Ascended gear on the outset. As I previously said, I’m the only person who consistently mains Engi and has an interest in this sort of content.

I get that, but this content isn’t being added for people like them that just picked up the game and want to run whatever build they want to. This content is being added for people like me that have been playing this game for over three years and want a serious challenge for once in PvE. And part of that challenge will mean changing your build around to accommodate the particulars of each individual boss fight.

Raids are not going to be for fresh 80s still learning the ropes of the game. That’s what dungeons are for, which naturally lead to fractals. I don’t think anyone should seriously consider doing raids without at least a couple ascended weapons and fully ascended trinkets.

A serious culture shift is going to have to occur in your guild if you guys want to be successful in these raids. They are not easy, and the margin for error is very slim. The enrage timer is eight minutes, and without 25 might, permanent fury, and 12+ stacks of burning on the boss nearly always—with some help from alacrity and quickness—you are not killing it in time.

ShahinSafavi.6821:

Someone was saying that a full ’Zerker set with Adaptive Armor, if I wanted to use the hammer, would at least offer something more significant to a group. Was that just an attempt to be polite, or is there actually something to that?

I said (and someone else as well) that a Sinister set with Adaptive Armor would allow you to tank a boss while still dealing great damage. Sinister engineer is the highest DPS build currently in the game, and second place isn’t particularly close. You could probably still use the hammer with a Sinister set, though, since the majority of your condition damage comes from your kits. All you would be theoretically losing by running the hammer is Blowtorch, and I wouldn’t expect the tank to run off-hand pistol anyway.

The “something” to why that is a good plan is that, as I’m sure you know, aggro mechanics in Guild Wars 2 are based entirely around toughness. Whoever has the highest toughness ends up holding aggro the most. There are some theories as well that certain boons heighten aggro as well, like protection, which Scrapper also has a lot of. But whatever the case, if you have the highest toughness you will hold aggro almost the entire time while still dealing top tier damage as a Sinister engineer.

ShahinSafavi.6821:

Sinister gear is out. I do not have it in me to farm for another set of Ascended gear right now. I understand that I’m missing out on one of the best roles that Engineers have to offer by doing this, but I’m eager to at least try to break from the meta.

With all due respect, raids are challenging, group-oriented, end-game content with enrage timers. This isn’t really the space for people to “break from the meta.” These boss fights are intended to be defeated in very specific ways.

And more to that point, I don’t understand: you can just change the stats on your ascended armor by forging them with an Anthology of Heroes.

insanemaniac.2456:

personally ill prolly just shrug and laugh at people who try to do that to me

Enjoy those enrage timers, then.

This expansion will be a great eye opener for the arrogant, I think. There is very little margin for error here.

I understand. I just thought it’d provide a point of comparison or inspiration for you. Obviously nothing about this beta weekend was ideal; my guild got very close to killing it, but we had to do a new group each night since the same people weren’t around every day—or even on the same professions.

The Chronomancer in their kill, Card, is actually a member of my guild as well, so I’ll talk with him and let you know if they’ve adjusted their Scrapper build since.

This is, to my best knowledge, the build Dom used to down the Vale Guardian.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vdAQJAqelUUhSsYtWwPLQ7FLGGFdj/4VO46Ff7UYAcf7FA-TxxHABEp8zl9Hm9BAMo6PAcCAMTPwTKBBA-e

Just another note, though: if everyone is running baseline toughness, you can theoretically tank the boss in Sinister with Adaptive Armor.

Chaba.5410:

I felt that HGH might-stacking was still superior to Juggernaut+Mass Momentum because yea, you have to camp in FT to sustain the stacks, which wasn’t allowing me to experience the hammer too much as a weapon.

Precisely. HGH has pretty much replaced any potential for Juggernaut. I’m fine with it, because elixir builds are finally viable in PvP (especially this one I’ve been using off and on for a month or so now), but they need to give the FT a role again—and it can’t just be stability, because Scrapper gets enough of it on its own through evades to max out their might with HGH anyway. And even if you don’t take Mass Momentum, Slick Shoes + Elixir B just significantly outperform FT + Elixir B because Rapid Regeneration and Perfectly Weighted are significantly better traits.

Like make no mistake: I had a lot of fun with this FT/EG build but it has a lot of brick walls in its way. And with the way Irenio was talking about Juggernaut and Mass Momentum in the livestream, I feel like he intended this to be an actual thing… and it’s not.

It just underperforms compared to the PP HGH build and the “Slixer” Scrapper build. And I don’t think they should nerf these so much as bring the FT up in line by giving it something to complement the hammer aside from just might and stability.

Sold Out.7625:

If the Deadly Mixture trait came back, I could actually imagine flamethrower being a major damage contender; it could even give the Auto some use!

The only thing is I’m not quite sure what trait I’d replace Deadly Mixture with. They’re all fairly vital to the build in its current state, especially in the Alchemy line. I think the better move would just be adjusting coefficients so that the FT is more competitive, or, as someone else suggested, simply overhauling Flame Jet’s mechanics so it is more reliable. I still think simply removing the 10% damage buff to burning targets and just making the damage buff baseline would go a long way to getting this kit on the right track.

I also am aware that their current focus is Scrapper, so a small change like the one I’m proposing is probably all we could potentially see in the near future. Even still, this is really kind of just a pipe dream at this point. It took them over two years to put a blast finisher on Flame Blast, so I’ve learned being patient pays off.

With the Dragon’s Tooth change, this would be a great follow-up.

Tyaen.5148:

Leave it alone.

+1

After 30-40 unranked matches and 1v1ing a ton with this build over the past 48 hours, I think I can give an honest assessment of this setup and some ideas that may help Scrapper in general.

During the livestream Irenio Calmon-Huang heavily hinted that Mass Momentum would work well with Juggernaut. And as someone that has for a long time desired the FT/EG combo to be a viable choice in top-level PvP and in end-game PvE, I became naturally excited and had high hopes for this new trait line. The FT has had its moments in the meta in both PvE and PvP, but generally speaking it has always operated more as a cog in the wheel than a bona fide, self-contained build similar to what the Grenade Kit or Bomb Kit have had.

In PvP, the decap engi was popular for a time and part of its success was Air Blast. The current FT/TK condi spec, by comparison, relies heavily on Incendiary Ammo but not much else. There really just hasn’t been a build out there that’s truly competitive and revolves around the FT, but I do think the Scrapper helps put the kit on that path.

The primary problem with Mass Momentum and Juggernaut combo, however, is that Juggernaut imposes such heavy limitations on you. Spending just five to six seconds outside of the kit results in a massive might sustain loss that Elixir-focused Scrapper builds don’t deal with, which means to maximize Mass Momentum, you have to spend most of your time camping the Flamethrower.

The fundamental issue there, however, is that the FT does significantly less damage than the hammer, both in its auto-attack and its overall skill set, which means you are effectively forced to weaken your damage to theoretically gain in damage. It seems weird to me, because on paper I think the hammer and the FT complement each other well: they’re both melee weapons, they’re both power weapons, and they’re both CC weapons.

To make this FT Scrapper build an actual reality in higher level PvP, I have a couple suggestions:

1. Remove the 10% damage modifier to burning targets with Flame Jet and simply make it baseline. I think right now Flame Jet’s damage is “good enough” for bruiser/CC builds when targets are burned, but you took condition duration out of the Explosives line and merged Napalm Specialist with Incendiary Powder, and now make us choose between Incendiary Powder and Juggernaut. Essentially, no build with Juggernaut and Mass Momentum will have enough burning to where this damage buff makes sense. This burning damage buff is a forgotten relic from a previous era, and it’d be good to bring Flame Jet up to modern times.

2. Remove the might stacking from Juggernaut because most engineers end up double-dipping with HGH and hitting the cap (with Mass Momentum) without it. Instead, alongside stability, have Juggernaut give Flame Jet some kind of debilitating effect like chill, cripple, or torment.

These changes will keep the Juggernaut and Mass Momentum synergy alive, but will also make spamming Flame Jet actually worthwhile when hammer skills are off cooldown by keeping enemies within range. This will also maintain the purity of the FT as a decapper weapon, as it will give us the Air Blast knockback to coincide with a soft CC to keep them out.

After 30-40 unranked matches and 1v1ing a ton with this build over the past 48 hours, I think I can give an honest assessment of this setup and some ideas that may help Scrapper in general.

During the livestream Irenio Calmon-Huang heavily hinted that Mass Momentum would work well with Juggernaut. And as someone that has for a long time desired the FT/EG combo to be a viable choice in top-level PvP and in end-game PvE, I became naturally excited and had high hopes for this new trait line. The FT has had its moments in the meta in both PvE and PvP, but generally speaking it has always operated more as a cog in the wheel than a bona fide, self-contained build similar to what the Grenade Kit or Bomb Kit have had.

In PvP, the decap engi was popular for a time and part of its success was Air Blast. The current FT/TK condi spec, by comparison, relies heavily on Incendiary Ammo but not much else. There really just hasn’t been a build out there that’s truly competitive and revolves around the FT, but I do think the Scrapper helps put the kit on that path.

The primary problem with Mass Momentum and Juggernaut combo, however, is that Juggernaut imposes such heavy limitations on you. Spending just five to six seconds outside of the kit results in a massive might sustain loss that Elixir-focused Scrapper builds don’t deal with, which means to maximize Mass Momentum, you have to spend most of your time camping the Flamethrower.

The fundamental issue there, however, is that the FT does significantly less damage than the hammer, both in its auto-attack and its overall skill set, which means you are effectively forced to weaken your damage to theoretically gain in damage. It seems weird to me, because on paper I think the hammer and the FT complement each other well: they’re both melee weapons, they’re both power weapons, and they’re both CC weapons.

To make this FT Scrapper build an actual reality in higher level PvP, I have a couple suggestions:

1. Remove the 10% damage modifier to burning targets with Flame Jet and simply make it baseline. I think right now Flame Jet’s damage is “good enough” for bruiser/CC builds when targets are burned, but you took condition duration out of the Explosives line and merged Napalm Specialist with Incendiary Powder, and now make us choose between Incendiary Powder and Juggernaut. Essentially, no build with Juggernaut and Mass Momentum will have enough burning to where this damage buff makes sense. This burning damage buff is a forgotten relic from a previous era, and it’d be good to bring Flame Jet up to modern times.

2. Remove the might stacking from Juggernaut because most engineers end up double-dipping with HGH and hitting the cap (with Mass Momentum) without it. Instead, alongside stability, have Juggernaut give Flame Jet some kind of debilitating effect like chill, cripple, or torment.

These changes will keep the Juggernaut and Mass Momentum synergy alive, but will also make spamming Flame Jet actually worthwhile when hammer skills are off cooldown by keeping enemies within range. This will also maintain the purity of the FT as a decapper weapon, as it will give us the Air Blast knockback to coincide with a soft CC to keep them out.

Brujeria.7536:

The AA is fine, it applys might AND vuln, and is not even bad at that. Also The attackspeed is quick for a two handed weapon.

The rest of the skills need a slight till medium damage nerf, they deal way too much damage ontop of their intended effects. A weapon should never have 4 skills with such high damage values, else they turn into a skillspamfest just for the DPS.

I think Shock Shield could be shaved a bit. The rest, I think, are fine.

The hammer auto-attack is imo right about where it should be. It does good enough damage that it gives bunker/bruiser builds some sustained damage presence when #2-5 are on cooldown, but it doesn’t do so good damage that you can forget about kits when built for DPS.

This again? Seriously…