Not disagreeing with @Kaiyanwan, I would say that the player meta has largely to do with the game design. Players notice what works and incorporate that in their playstyle. It is the conception of combat in GW2 that is the problem.
Well kinda… there are a couple problems.
1) Much of the early focus for combat was on 5-man dungeons. There really not all that many complex mechanics you can throw at such small groups simply because of the manpower limitations.
2) [and this is a problem both with players AND the developer here]… when Arena.net HAS gone with large scale, more complex fights, there’s been a large segment of the player base that absolutely refuses to put the work into actually succeeding with it. They dismiss it outright and complain it’s “not fun” and “too hard.”
Now where it’s also Arena.net’s problem is that with their offerings so far, it’s either 5-man, or 80+ requirement open world. Frankly, when you start getting into the numbers that Tequatl and the three-headed jungle wurm as for… it really CAN’T be all that complex either… because then you’ll only have the large guilds willing to try it, which is what we are seeing.
The bulk of players in the open world don’t want hard content; either they don’t have the time to master their skill set to be of use, or don’t WANT to master their skill set. They avoid this stuff like the plague, and with the nature of the open world, often wind up hindering those that DO want to try it even if said players aren’t TRYING to disrupt said content.
Right now, there’s little content that actually appeals to that small section of players that want hard content but don’t want to have to deal with the open world to do it. Personally, I don’t fully understand why this is a problem for Arena.net. I don’t understand why they are so absolutely against 20 or 40-man instanced content, for example.
It’s certainly not player participation… because they know that their latest open-world stuff isn’t being tried by the bulk of the player base anyway. It might as well be instanced with the tricks the groups that DO try it have to resort to get all their players together in one place. They have this vision for this open-world content that I am not the least bit convinced the bulk of their player base shares.
Truly challenging open world content simply does not belong in the open world. That is a design issue. You design open world PvE for the player you find there. The challenging, raid-like content, as you note, belongs in instances.
I can see the POTENTIAL for far more unique complexity with this system, just that as of right now, the player “meta” and game design presented so far really isn’t taking advantage of it.
Not disagreeing with @Kaiyanwan, I would say that the player meta has largely to do with the game design. Players notice what works and incorporate that in their playstyle. It is the conception of combat in GW2 that is the problem.
@ Raine.1394
“I think it’s fine to have a preference around the trinity and I honor that.”
You made it sound like that you have preference around the trinity and you honor that ppl have that. I think you where trying to say more on the lines of “I think it’s find to have preference and i honor that.” Added in “Around the trinity” means your still talking with in a trinity system making it the only system you honor and or work with.
Well that the way i was reading it sry if i miss took that.
I have no preference around the trinity and said that explicitly and honestly. My issue is purely around the lack of meaningful combat roles in GW2.
No, the trinity is simply a construct that grows out of human experience. First, it acknowledges that humans generally approach group objectives through roles, and this is true whether it’s a scavenger hunt, football team, or brain surgery. The trinity decided among various role options and came up with three.
One thing to note is that the options come largely from human experience and archetype. And, that’s where they should come from. Is the trinity anything special that must be preserved? Nope, it’s just one possible conception of combat roles and I believe we could do better than the trinity. But, I don’t believe all DPS all the time works and that’s why we have these threads. Something is wrong and something can be improved.
That the thing in real life ppl do more then just there job at hand they help other ppl with there job no one is so pigeon hold to only doing one action. The 3 thing is just more of a western thing there is something about 3 being important. In real life there more then attk def and support rolls there a lot more nearly endless numbers of variation and to just lock a class into one of just 3 types is just out right silly. It was done for a reason because it was sufficiently easier for the game makers to work with.
The thing is the trinity is being artificially preserved in that ppl are falling back to the “good old days” point of view. If they started out only knowing one way to play an mmorpg in a trinity system they think any variation is out right a “sin.” Do you see where i am going with this? There is a lot of tie in to religion believes and the trinity system in mmorpg its an over all western point of view of how things are there even ppl who cant stand to have just 2 reason for something.
I am just saying at the end of all of this its a good thing to let ppl chose if they are going to play a trinity or trinity like system or to play with out a complete specialization and to remove this chose is to out right be blind to other ppl points of views and near xenophobia to non western views.
As for the honor bit if you say effectively “its true because i believe its true” not realty a point to be made.
Nothing really to respond to here except the last sentence. Where do you get “its true because i believe its true” from “I honor peoples preferences”? Could you explain further? I realize English is not your first language, but believe we can get to an eventual understanding here.
Side note to honor something you believe in is more of an ego boots its not realty something you do to make a point.
I was actually an English major at one point in my academic career but can’t make out the meaning of this sentence. To me, to honor something you believe in is to honor something you believe in. If you believe something different, can you provide more English to help me understand your point?
Another thing that simply blows my mind when i see these topics, why do you knowingly come to a game that doesn’t have the combat system you prefer and expect them to change? Why bother in the first place, especially if you don’t enjoy the combat system they designed. This has always made me scratch my head, it’s like going to MacDonalds and complaining that you hate their food?
In my case I didn’t come to GW2 with a preference. I had played trinity games and was completely open to other conceptions of combat—and, I still am. I have no special love for the trinity itself and perhaps have the most problem with the conception of tank.
What I do believe is necessary is meaningful combat roles and we don’t have them. In thinking about what’s missing I’m not sure that set roles are necessary if say meaningful alternate builds were available that brought unique meaningful abilities to the table. I’m completely open, but have noticed that GW2 combat is not satisfying. Rather than giving up on a great game, I prefer to advocate for things that might work better.
When combat becomes more open ppl have more chose in how they play even games with a trinity system if they are able to avoid attks by rolling out of the way it weakens the trinity system over all. So you can play GW2 like it has a trinity system but most ppl CHOSE not to. So its not for the lack of a trinity system that ppl play the way you do not want them to play its more on the ppl want to play that way. If you truly dislike playing that way then you do not have to but if others truly dislike playing with a trinity system you have no right to say they are wrong.
Game design is the larger determinant of how people play a game. It’s interesting, early on a meta wanted to emerge around an anchor guardian, mesmer, and warrior team composition. I say “wanted to” because it is innate in our humanity to establish roles when confronted with a group objective. But, players eventually figured out that DPS was the only thing that mattered after all.
I never have a problem with people’s preferences. I only take issue with irrational ideas like WoW is more scripted than GW2 because of the trinity. Or, that wait time is an issue with a LFG tool under the trinity. I think it’s fine to have a preference around the trinity and I honor that.
So trinity is more of an artifact of lower end computing power and lower end web power it makes an illusion of combat that is not turn base but in truth it is turn base. Games like WoW are very scripted as in there only one way to play it and in truth there no way for WoW to brake out of that beyond giving every class every thing at once. The ability to avoid dmg by rolling adds a lot more to the level of chose of how you play in a game at the same time having environment weapons such as having triggers falling rock kill mobs at the same time etc.. take away from the idea of a trinity system too. That kind of the point to have mmorpg evolve into new higher end system and web power so far mmorpg have lagged way behind such stander as FPS or moba (how every you spell it) or rts etc… Its this hold out to the old that is keeping mmorpg back badly.
Side note to honor something you believe in is more of an ego boots its not realty something you do to make a point.
No, the trinity is simply a construct that grows out of human experience. First, it acknowledges that humans generally approach group objectives through roles, and this is true whether it’s a scavenger hunt, football team, or brain surgery. The trinity decided among various role options and came up with three.
One thing to note is that the options come largely from human experience and archetype. And, that’s where they should come from. Is the trinity anything special that must be preserved? Nope, it’s just one possible conception of combat roles and I believe we could do better than the trinity. But, I don’t believe all DPS all the time works and that’s why we have these threads. Something is wrong and something can be improved.
Another thing that simply blows my mind when i see these topics, why do you knowingly come to a game that doesn’t have the combat system you prefer and expect them to change? Why bother in the first place, especially if you don’t enjoy the combat system they designed. This has always made me scratch my head, it’s like going to MacDonalds and complaining that you hate their food?
In my case I didn’t come to GW2 with a preference. I had played trinity games and was completely open to other conceptions of combat—and, I still am. I have no special love for the trinity itself and perhaps have the most problem with the conception of tank.
What I do believe is necessary is meaningful combat roles and we don’t have them. In thinking about what’s missing I’m not sure that set roles are necessary if say meaningful alternate builds were available that brought unique meaningful abilities to the table. I’m completely open, but have noticed that GW2 combat is not satisfying. Rather than giving up on a great game, I prefer to advocate for things that might work better.
When combat becomes more open ppl have more chose in how they play even games with a trinity system if they are able to avoid attks by rolling out of the way it weakens the trinity system over all. So you can play GW2 like it has a trinity system but most ppl CHOSE not to. So its not for the lack of a trinity system that ppl play the way you do not want them to play its more on the ppl want to play that way. If you truly dislike playing that way then you do not have to but if others truly dislike playing with a trinity system you have no right to say they are wrong.
Game design is the larger determinant of how people play a game. It’s interesting, early on a meta wanted to emerge around an anchor guardian, mesmer, and warrior team composition. I say “wanted to” because it is innate in our humanity to establish roles when confronted with a group objective. But, players eventually figured out that DPS was the only thing that mattered after all.
I never have a problem with people’s preferences. I only take issue with irrational ideas like WoW is more scripted than GW2 because of the trinity. Or, that wait time is an issue with a LFG tool under the trinity. I think it’s fine to have a preference around the trinity and I honor that.
Another thing that simply blows my mind when i see these topics, why do you knowingly come to a game that doesn’t have the combat system you prefer and expect them to change? Why bother in the first place, especially if you don’t enjoy the combat system they designed. This has always made me scratch my head, it’s like going to MacDonalds and complaining that you hate their food?
In my case I didn’t come to GW2 with a preference. I had played trinity games and was completely open to other conceptions of combat—and, I still am. I have no special love for the trinity itself and perhaps have the most problem with the conception of tank.
What I do believe is necessary is meaningful combat roles and we don’t have them. In thinking about what’s missing I’m not sure that set roles are necessary if say meaningful alternate builds were available that brought unique meaningful abilities to the table. I’m completely open, but have noticed that GW2 combat is not satisfying. Rather than giving up on a great game, I prefer to advocate for things that might work better.
There is strategy in WoW raids. The “script” is the strategy. Following the script is the tactics. What WoW raids lack, once the optimal strategy is known, is discovery and spontaneity. Once you’ve successfully completed encounter X, you’ll likely be doing it that way until you stop doing it completely. That same criticism applies to most MMO’s. Once encounter mechanics are known, you’re following a script.
Not much in the way of strategy if it’s handed to you by someone else. Then it’s just script reading. The only skill necessary would be reading comprehension.
And if you consider any GW2 encounter is is exactly the same. There is something that you should be doing at any given time. You either know the script or not. GW2 combat is completely scripted. How would I know this? Just read any thread on how to kill X. That should be fairly straightforward.
And how would adding the trinity do anything to stop the scriptedness of the combat again?
By the way, talking about the fact that GW2 uses position to avoid combat by not aggroing is rather humorous, since that very same thing constantly happened in WoW dungeons. “Don’t go there… we don’t want the trash mobs right now. Go this way instead.” Same thing… trinity or not.
Adding the trinity would change nothing here as I’m sure IndigoSundown would agree. It’s just that the notion that there is anything superior or different in this regard in the GW2 conception of combat is just silly.
If that is what you’re arguing, then it’s not part of the original topic. The original topic is about what it would be like if GW2 had the trinity. My answer is still the same as what I posted before. It would suck.
I’m in agreement that GW2’s mode of dungeon play is lackluster. It’s a DPS fest with little strategy apart from stand here and do this until this happens. But I’ll take what GW2 has before I go back to the trinity system… if for no other reason than having to wait for a healer or tank. In GW2, everyone is DPS. No waiting time.
EDIT: And the dodge mechanic, which I happen to like, even if I suck at it.
Yes, my point is simply that GW2 is scripted to the same extent you would say that trinity combat is scripted. It offers nothing different or new in this regard.
But at least a no trinity system doesn’t hold you back waiting for another player to be able to play the game. At least you’re still self-sufficient.
My position here is that you are not held back. The LFM Tank stuff is an urban legend created by Anet to sell their product. I have never once spammed chat for a tank or healer. I use the LFG tool in WoW. The tool does all the work and the wait has never been problematic. So, the the issue of being held back simply doesn’t arise—except of course in the Anet marketing.
Except you never played GW1. That was the game.
LFG tank. LFG healer.
You needed those – and I’m rather fond of the situation in which i can do well by myself.
Except they weren’t addressing GW1 when they said “We keep hearing other MMO developers espousing the “holy trinity” of DPS/ heal/tank with such reverence, as if this is the most entertaining combat they have ever played.” They were addressing WoW, essentially.
Doing well by yourself comes at a cost, sadly. It means there will be no rich interdependence and humans derive a lot of value from that. However, I’m glad you are liking the current conception of combat—not all are.
My position here is that you are not held back. The LFM Tank stuff is an urban legend created by Anet to sell their product. I have never once spammed chat for a tank or healer. I use the LFG tool in WoW. The tool does all the work and the wait has never been problematic. So, the the issue of being held back simply doesn’t arise—except of course in the Anet marketing.
You didn’t really just say that Anet made up the “LF1 Healer for [Dungeon X],” did you? Seriously? I played WoW for years, and I can tell you it DID happen. Quite frequently in fact. And this didn’t just happen in the high end dungeons either. The 5-man instances in the lower levels had the same issue. In fact, even with the LFG tool, I remember having to wait over an hour to get in.
Yep, I really, seriously did.
“We keep hearing other MMO developers espousing the “holy trinity” of DPS/ heal/tank with such reverence, as if this is the most entertaining combat they have ever played. Frankly, we don’t like sitting around spamming “looking for healer” to global chat. That feels an awful lot like preparing to have fun instead of having fun."
Does that sound at all familiar? Have you read about any of the game distinctives from the game developer? This is a game distinctive, no holy trinity and no spamming “looking for healer”. Just like the “we don’t make grindy games” this was pure marketing speak. I have played WoW for years and waiting for groups is a non-issue, at least on my server and battle group.
Just because you didn’t have an issue with it doesn’t make it a non-issue. I know SEVERAL WoW players that had the issue of having to wait for a decent length of time to run a dungeon, simply because no healer and/or tank wasn’t available. And it wasn’t just an isolated case, either. GW2 didn’t make that up. It really did exist. Your claim that it was an urban legend is false.
Oh noes, SEVERAL players have suffered wait times under the trinity. I stand corrected. There is no problem posed by the trinity that a proper LFG tool can’t fix. And, the interesting thing is that we do this naturally throughout life. In an operating room, surgery is not going to happen if you don’t have a surgeon present. You know, I could go on and on about how humans behave in groups and have elsewhere. Why is it all of a sudden a problem when you have necessary roles to fill in groups in games. If you are a human you are already very familiar with this actually working IRL.
“Raine.1394
My position here is that you are not held back. The LFM Tank stuff is an urban legend created by Anet to sell their product. I have never once spammed chat for a tank or healer. I use the LFG tool in WoW. The tool does all the work and the wait has never been problematic. So, the the issue of being held back simply doesn’t arise—except of course in the Anet marketing.”
Who is delusional now? I’ve played WoW or should I say stood around and waited in WoW for countless hours for either a tank or more often a healer, not to mention the flat out extortion by tanks to actually run a dungeon with you. You are flat out BS’ing pal and Anet’s marketing team didn’t dream this issue up, anyone could go to their boards or any WoW fan forum and see the countless threads screaming about the bloody problem why do you think Blizz came up with those tools in the first place if this wasn’t an issue…boredom?
While I’m at it, the trinity was a developer tool used to make their job much easier in fact the whole concept is designed around the fact that defined roles and abilities would result in far fewer contingencies to plan for then non trinity combat. The trinity is a mindless system for the less comfortable or skilled players and that’s the truth of the matter. Don’t get me wrong zerg combat is as mindless but the fact is there is excellent opportunity to create far more complex strategic encounters with far more options to players to beat said content and certainly more thought needed than any trinity based dribble created.
No delusions dude. I’ve actually been reporting my average queue times on the monk I’m leveling. It’s currently ~3 minutes and I’m WW (DPS). What I haven’t been able to find is a problem created by the trinity of “preparing to have fun”. Not with a working LFG tool.
“Raine.1394
My position here is that you are not held back. The LFM Tank stuff is an urban legend created by Anet to sell their product. I have never once spammed chat for a tank or healer. I use the LFG tool in WoW. The tool does all the work and the wait has never been problematic. So, the the issue of being held back simply doesn’t arise—except of course in the Anet marketing.”
Who is delusional now? I’ve played WoW or should I say stood around and waited in WoW for countless hours for either a tank or more often a healer, not to mention the flat out extortion by tanks to actually run a dungeon with you. You are flat out BS’ing pal and Anet’s marketing team didn’t dream this issue up, anyone could go to their boards or any WoW fan forum and see the countless threads screaming about the bloody problem why do you think Blizz came up with those tools in the first place if this wasn’t an issue…boredom?
Raine is choosing to ignore that when ANet made the no trinity design decision, there was no LFG tool in WoW. I met my WoW guild because I was on my Priest and took pity on someone who had been asking for a healer for a dungeon for over an hour. There certainly is such a tool now, but ANet did not invent the problem.
When they marketed GW2 and it’s distinctives, WoW had an LFG tool. I am not choosing to ignore anything.
“We keep hearing other MMO developers espousing the “holy trinity” of DPS/ heal/tank with such reverence, as if this is the most entertaining combat they have ever played. Frankly, we don’t like sitting around spamming “looking for healer” to global chat. That feels an awful lot like preparing to have fun instead of having fun. "
Sound familiar? When I originally read it and made a decision to preorder GW2, WoW had an LFG tool. And, I am accurately reporting the fact that I have never spammed chat for a healer or tank, I just use the tool. Do healers and tanks queue faster? Yep. And, there might be a significant wait, once in a blue moon, for a given instance. But, the problems marketed do not represent my experience under the trinity. There is no solution offered here as paradoxically it has been much much more difficult to put groups together in GW2 than it is in WoW.
My position here is that you are not held back. The LFM Tank stuff is an urban legend created by Anet to sell their product. I have never once spammed chat for a tank or healer. I use the LFG tool in WoW. The tool does all the work and the wait has never been problematic. So, the the issue of being held back simply doesn’t arise—except of course in the Anet marketing.
You didn’t really just say that Anet made up the “LF1 Healer for [Dungeon X],” did you? Seriously? I played WoW for years, and I can tell you it DID happen. Quite frequently in fact. And this didn’t just happen in the high end dungeons either. The 5-man instances in the lower levels had the same issue. In fact, even with the LFG tool, I remember having to wait over an hour to get in.
Yep, I really, seriously did.
“We keep hearing other MMO developers espousing the “holy trinity” of DPS/ heal/tank with such reverence, as if this is the most entertaining combat they have ever played. Frankly, we don’t like sitting around spamming “looking for healer” to global chat. That feels an awful lot like preparing to have fun instead of having fun."
Does that sound at all familiar? Have you read about any of the game distinctives from the game developer? This is a game distinctive, no holy trinity and no spamming “looking for healer”. Just like the “we don’t make grindy games” this was pure marketing speak. I have played WoW for years and waiting for groups is a non-issue, at least on my server and battle group.
This is an interesting question. GW2 combat is of a very primitive form. It essentially describes the berserker battlefield where everyone enrages and simply goes for it. The trinity at least provides roles for combat. Consider IRL combat with infantry, artillery, etc. Modern combat is roles-based—it’s how humans approach solving problems in groups. The trinity at least provides a role-based format. GW2 combat provides nothing but the berserker, a fine archetype but rather unsatisfying as a complete combat system.
The simpler GW2 boss fights can allow for the berserker style of fighting, no one is denying that, however it’s certainly not limiting in that regards and anything else works as well. You can take any mix of characters, any mix of armor types and succeed. The difference between this and actual trinityesque scripted combat is that with the scripted trinity type you’re not only forced into a set number of tanks and healers (with the rest dps) but you’re also forced into a single add on driven dance in which you must follow the steps or fail. To make matters worse, you can’t deviate at all as a player… a tank must tank and only tank, a healer must heal the tank and ignore everything else around him, dps can only stand there and cycle their dps rotations. It is far, far more limiting in what you can do than in a trinity-free system.
Yeah, don’t forget that GW2 combat is totally scripted. How did I figure that out? Well, I read a ‘how to kill X’ thread so that I would know how to kill X and not mess everything up. I found if you follow the script in GW2 you will be successful. If you don’t you will fail. Kinda boring, eh?
This may come as a surprise, but there’s a difference between learning the dynamics of the fight and following a strict script. In WoW, for one, there’s an add on (I forget the name) that basically yells at you what’s about to happen next, where to go, what to do, etc. For those fights, you’re told step by step what to do next. With the wurm it’s much broader… say for example 20 people need to do this to get the wurm invulnerable while some groups take out eggs and spawns then when vulnerable burn the wurm… the difference is in GW2 we learn what to do but in WoW you’re told how to do it.
I do the same research of an encounter in GW2 as I do in WoW—in exactly the same way and for the same information. You are drawing a distinction that doesn’t exist. A script is a script and GW2 combat is totally scripted.
This is an interesting question. GW2 combat is of a very primitive form. It essentially describes the berserker battlefield where everyone enrages and simply goes for it. The trinity at least provides roles for combat. Consider IRL combat with infantry, artillery, etc. Modern combat is roles-based—it’s how humans approach solving problems in groups. The trinity at least provides a role-based format. GW2 combat provides nothing but the berserker, a fine archetype but rather unsatisfying as a complete combat system.
The simpler GW2 boss fights can allow for the berserker style of fighting, no one is denying that, however it’s certainly not limiting in that regards and anything else works as well. You can take any mix of characters, any mix of armor types and succeed. The difference between this and actual trinityesque scripted combat is that with the scripted trinity type you’re not only forced into a set number of tanks and healers (with the rest dps) but you’re also forced into a single add on driven dance in which you must follow the steps or fail. To make matters worse, you can’t deviate at all as a player… a tank must tank and only tank, a healer must heal the tank and ignore everything else around him, dps can only stand there and cycle their dps rotations. It is far, far more limiting in what you can do than in a trinity-free system.
Yeah, don’t forget that GW2 combat is totally scripted. How did I figure that out? Well, I read a ‘how to kill X’ thread so that I would know how to kill X and not mess everything up. I found if you follow the script in GW2 you will be successful. If you don’t you will fail. Kinda boring, eh?
This is an interesting question. GW2 combat is of a very primitive form. It essentially describes the berserker battlefield where everyone enrages and simply goes for it. The trinity at least provides roles for combat. Consider IRL combat with infantry, artillery, etc. Modern combat is roles-based—it’s how humans approach solving problems in groups. The trinity at least provides a role-based format. GW2 combat provides nothing but the berserker, a fine archetype but rather unsatisfying as a complete combat system.
There is strategy in WoW raids. The “script” is the strategy. Following the script is the tactics. What WoW raids lack, once the optimal strategy is known, is discovery and spontaneity. Once you’ve successfully completed encounter X, you’ll likely be doing it that way until you stop doing it completely. That same criticism applies to most MMO’s. Once encounter mechanics are known, you’re following a script.
Not much in the way of strategy if it’s handed to you by someone else. Then it’s just script reading. The only skill necessary would be reading comprehension.
And if you consider any GW2 encounter is is exactly the same. There is something that you should be doing at any given time. You either know the script or not. GW2 combat is completely scripted. How would I know this? Just read any thread on how to kill X. That should be fairly straightforward.
And how would adding the trinity do anything to stop the scriptedness of the combat again?
By the way, talking about the fact that GW2 uses position to avoid combat by not aggroing is rather humorous, since that very same thing constantly happened in WoW dungeons. “Don’t go there… we don’t want the trash mobs right now. Go this way instead.” Same thing… trinity or not.
Adding the trinity would change nothing here as I’m sure IndigoSundown would agree. It’s just that the notion that there is anything superior or different in this regard in the GW2 conception of combat is just silly.
If that is what you’re arguing, then it’s not part of the original topic. The original topic is about what it would be like if GW2 had the trinity. My answer is still the same as what I posted before. It would suck.
I’m in agreement that GW2’s mode of dungeon play is lackluster. It’s a DPS fest with little strategy apart from stand here and do this until this happens. But I’ll take what GW2 has before I go back to the trinity system… if for no other reason than having to wait for a healer or tank. In GW2, everyone is DPS. No waiting time.
EDIT: And the dodge mechanic, which I happen to like, even if I suck at it.
Yes, my point is simply that GW2 is scripted to the same extent you would say that trinity combat is scripted. It offers nothing different or new in this regard.
But at least a no trinity system doesn’t hold you back waiting for another player to be able to play the game. At least you’re still self-sufficient.
My position here is that you are not held back. The LFM Tank stuff is an urban legend created by Anet to sell their product. I have never once spammed chat for a tank or healer. I use the LFG tool in WoW. The tool does all the work and the wait has never been problematic. So, the the issue of being held back simply doesn’t arise—except of course in the Anet marketing.
You obviously are unaware of the state of GW2 combat. Watch DnT dungeon videos at random. What you will see is stand here, because the boss can’t hit you and DPS the boss down. Then run through the instance this way so you don’t aggro any mobs. It is brain dead. Meters? How could they even have meters in this game. They don’t account for condition damage by player. How would players feel if the knew they were only doing ‘white’ damage. Regardless of whether meters are good or bad you couldn’t even have them in this game.
One way this analogy fails miserably is that you’re failing to recognize something extremely significant… In GW2, the DnT vids are showing you one way to do the fight. In WoW, the script is the only way to do the fight.
Not at all. The vids are simply showing the way the game is typically played. WoW is a sophisticated game that requires actual strategy to play. GW2 is pretty much stack and wail. You really don’t need strategy when there is realistically only one thing to do.
You keep up with this silly claim about WoW requiring strategy. However there isn’t a raid in the game where the players develop a strategy for the fight, it’s all spoon fed to them via a script.
By the way, doing Jungle Wurm right now (well, in a few minutes for the next try). We had all three heads down and flopping. Good luck trying to convince anyone that this fight is stack and wail or that it would be even remotely as good with an archaic trinity system.
gtg… strategy session before the fight…
That’s why i suggested you actually watch it, the trinity, in action. It would be impossible to ignore. Especially with the braindead stack and wail combat that is Gw2 combat.
Are you suggesting that the Marionette, Tequatl and the Jungle Wurm are “braindead [sic] stack and wail” fights? Like I’ve said (and you’ve chosen to ignore), I’ve been part of the trinity in action. The scripted nature of the fights is indeed impossible to ignore. You refuse to answer whether or not players actually develop strategies for the fights which is understandable because they don’t, they’re handed a script to follow and that’s it. Meanwhile, with the Jungle Wurm for example, people are developing strategies on the fly trying to figure out what works (grats to the two servers that succeeded so far). People are in TS offering suggestions, trying new things. You couldn’t do that with WoW raids, for deviating from the script led to near instant failure. When the add on tells you to do something, you do it or die.
I’m suggesting that the Marionette, Tequatl and the Jungle Wurm are totally scripted fights. How would I know that? Just read any “how to kill X” threads on these forums. They essentially provide the script. If you follow the script you will be successful, if you don’t you will fail. GW2 combat is essentially totally scripted. Is it more advanced because you have to read the script rather than have a addon read it for you? I’d probably argue for the value of the addon in the case of totally scripted fights like in GW2.
You obviously are unaware of the state of GW2 combat. Watch DnT dungeon videos at random. What you will see is stand here, because the boss can’t hit you and DPS the boss down. Then run through the instance this way so you don’t aggro any mobs. It is brain dead. Meters? How could they even have meters in this game. They don’t account for condition damage by player. How would players feel if the knew they were only doing ‘white’ damage. Regardless of whether meters are good or bad you couldn’t even have them in this game.
One way this analogy fails miserably is that you’re failing to recognize something extremely significant… In GW2, the DnT vids are showing you one way to do the fight. In WoW, the script is the only way to do the fight.
Not at all. The vids are simply showing the way the game is typically played. WoW is a sophisticated game that requires actual strategy to play. GW2 is pretty much stack and wail. You really don’t need strategy when there is realistically only one thing to do.
You keep up with this silly claim about WoW requiring strategy. However there isn’t a raid in the game where the players develop a strategy for the fight, it’s all spoon fed to them via a script.
By the way, doing Jungle Wurm right now (well, in a few minutes for the next try). We had all three heads down and flopping. Good luck trying to convince anyone that this fight is stack and wail or that it would be even remotely as good with an archaic trinity system.
gtg… strategy session before the fight…
That’s why i suggested you actually watch it, the trinity, in action. It would be impossible to ignore. Especially with the braindead stack and wail combat that is Gw2 combat.
That’s what the traditional MMO Trinity system provides. I’m a healer, I heal. I’m a tank, I hold aggro. I’m a Paladin, I do damage. How is that not routine?
Therefore if you support that you must support the routine rolls assigned to your class while doing raids. Deviation is punished. There is no slack, no leeway in the system. It’s a totalitarian system that you must conform to simply to keep up with the others of your class. You are just a cog in a well oiled machine going through the motions that might give you a chance at a BIS item.
Also general you, as in those longing for a more traditional MMO Trinity system than what we have here. Those who want more info in the LFG system we have to exclude more players because they didn’t meet your ridged criteria. And since we don’t have that we get exclusion by achievement points or lack of a commander’s badge or insistence we reveal what armor stats we have equipped.
This is an MMO about inclusion and all I’ve ever seen as a result of the Trinity is exclusionary practices. But you all are still trying to fit this square peg of a game into your round hole of Trinity.
If you are a paladin you are as likely to heal or tank as do damage under the trinity. This is why I suggested elsewhere to actually view the trinity as is plays out in a game wherein it is played at the top of the game. It has nothing to do, at all, with inclusion or exclusion, it is simply a conception of combat that works, unlike the the stack and wail conception of GW2 combat.
But you don’t need to put together a team in GW2 unless you are looking to do a speed run.
spit
Sorry, bad taste in my mouth. Any group can methodically do a dungeon in GW2. It’s only those that want to do it as quickly as possible with zero deaths so they can go do it again 4 more times this evening cares about party construction.
Yeah, we were basically talking instances. But, I did broaden it to include the open world encounter in GW2 which is all about overflow dancing. What a painful way to design encounters as it makes players responsible for working a workaround rather than providing content that just works. WoW and their LFG tool definitely wins all around. BTW, doesn’t matter if you spit or not. Monkeys do that. A rational argument is all that is required.
You seemed to miss my not so subtle dislike for all things “speed” that have permeated MMOs. Understandable when it’s a subscription based game, don’t want to pay for longer than I have to but in a B2P or F2P? It’s an example of if all you have is a hammer, everything is a nail. It’s all “how do I level quickly” or getting BIS gear or which skill/trait combinations are the best for this profession/class. Basically the sole quest in every MMO has become finding the closest thing to an “easy” button or God Mode only to turn around and complain that the game is to easy.
You want hard, PUG. Use white gear. Use tactics beyond dog piling.
But no. You want routine familiarity. You want your little role in playing to be all mapped out. I’m the meat puppet, I’m the healer, I’m the damage dealer, I’m buffs/debuffs and do your niche’s equivalent of pressing one and occasionally 3. It’s like school kids in Japan. They want to assert their uniqueness by tweaking their school uniforms but then they go and tweak them the exact same way.
My dislike for the Trinity is because I got to this level playing my way, killing along the way and now that I’m on a team, I MUST do only one thing and that’s not dealing damage. That’s what I like about GW2. Everybody joins the fray.
I want routine familiarity? Where on earth did you get that notion. You are setting up a strawman that I have no familiarity with….at all. What exactly are you saying about anything at all? I did notice that you spit like a monkey. What did i miss?
But you don’t need to put together a team in GW2 unless you are looking to do a speed run.
spit
Sorry, bad taste in my mouth. Any group can methodically do a dungeon in GW2. It’s only those that want to do it as quickly as possible with zero deaths so they can go do it again 4 more times this evening cares about party construction.
Yeah, we were basically talking instances. But, I did broaden it to include the open world encounter in GW2 which is all about overflow dancing. What a painful way to design encounters as it makes players responsible for working a workaround rather than providing content that just works. WoW and their LFG tool definitely wins all around. BTW, doesn’t matter if you spit or not. Monkeys do that. A rational argument is all that is required.
“Let’s just wait 10 more minutes guys and we’ll go WvW if no tanks or healers show up”
I’m actually playing WoW as we speak. I queue for dungeons as they become available. I have never once spammed chat for a healer or a tank. There is an LFG tool that does all the work of assembling a team. And, the wait is averaging 3 minutes currently. Compare that to what it takes to put together a team in GW2, especially for an open world encounter. WoW simply works.
You obviously are unaware of the state of GW2 combat. Watch DnT dungeon videos at random. What you will see is stand here, because the boss can’t hit you and DPS the boss down. Then run through the instance this way so you don’t aggro any mobs. It is brain dead. Meters? How could they even have meters in this game. They don’t account for condition damage by player. How would players feel if the knew they were only doing ‘white’ damage. Regardless of whether meters are good or bad you couldn’t even have them in this game.
One way this analogy fails miserably is that you’re failing to recognize something extremely significant… In GW2, the DnT vids are showing you one way to do the fight. In WoW, the script is the only way to do the fight.
Not at all. The vids are simply showing the way the game is typically played. WoW is a sophisticated game that requires actual strategy to play. GW2 is pretty much stack and wail. You really don’t need strategy when there is realistically only one thing to do.
There is strategy in WoW raids. The “script” is the strategy. Following the script is the tactics. What WoW raids lack, once the optimal strategy is known, is discovery and spontaneity. Once you’ve successfully completed encounter X, you’ll likely be doing it that way until you stop doing it completely. That same criticism applies to most MMO’s. Once encounter mechanics are known, you’re following a script.
Not much in the way of strategy if it’s handed to you by someone else. Then it’s just script reading. The only skill necessary would be reading comprehension.
And if you consider any GW2 encounter is is exactly the same. There is something that you should be doing at any given time. You either know the script or not. GW2 combat is completely scripted. How would I know this? Just read any thread on how to kill X. That should be fairly straightforward.
And how would adding the trinity do anything to stop the scriptedness of the combat again?
By the way, talking about the fact that GW2 uses position to avoid combat by not aggroing is rather humorous, since that very same thing constantly happened in WoW dungeons. “Don’t go there… we don’t want the trash mobs right now. Go this way instead.” Same thing… trinity or not.
Adding the trinity would change nothing here as I’m sure IndigoSundown would agree. It’s just that the notion that there is anything superior or different in this regard in the GW2 conception of combat is just silly.
If that is what you’re arguing, then it’s not part of the original topic. The original topic is about what it would be like if GW2 had the trinity. My answer is still the same as what I posted before. It would suck.
I’m in agreement that GW2’s mode of dungeon play is lackluster. It’s a DPS fest with little strategy apart from stand here and do this until this happens. But I’ll take what GW2 has before I go back to the trinity system… if for no other reason than having to wait for a healer or tank. In GW2, everyone is DPS. No waiting time.
EDIT: And the dodge mechanic, which I happen to like, even if I suck at it.
Yes, my point is simply that GW2 is scripted to the same extent you would say that trinity combat is scripted. It offers nothing different or new in this regard.
There is strategy in WoW raids. The “script” is the strategy. Following the script is the tactics. What WoW raids lack, once the optimal strategy is known, is discovery and spontaneity. Once you’ve successfully completed encounter X, you’ll likely be doing it that way until you stop doing it completely. That same criticism applies to most MMO’s. Once encounter mechanics are known, you’re following a script.
Not much in the way of strategy if it’s handed to you by someone else. Then it’s just script reading. The only skill necessary would be reading comprehension.
And if you consider any GW2 encounter is is exactly the same. There is something that you should be doing at any given time. You either know the script or not. GW2 combat is completely scripted. How would I know this? Just read any thread on how to kill X. That should be fairly straightforward.
And how would adding the trinity do anything to stop the scriptedness of the combat again?
By the way, talking about the fact that GW2 uses position to avoid combat by not aggroing is rather humorous, since that very same thing constantly happened in WoW dungeons. “Don’t go there… we don’t want the trash mobs right now. Go this way instead.” Same thing… trinity or not.
Adding the trinity would change nothing here as I’m sure IndigoSundown would agree. It’s just that the notion that there is anything superior or different in this regard in the GW2 conception of combat is just silly.
There is strategy in WoW raids. The “script” is the strategy. Following the script is the tactics. What WoW raids lack, once the optimal strategy is known, is discovery and spontaneity. Once you’ve successfully completed encounter X, you’ll likely be doing it that way until you stop doing it completely. That same criticism applies to most MMO’s. Once encounter mechanics are known, you’re following a script.
Not much in the way of strategy if it’s handed to you by someone else. Then it’s just script reading. The only skill necessary would be reading comprehension.
And if you consider any GW2 encounter it is exactly the same. There is something that you should be doing at any given time. You either know the script or not. GW2 combat is completely scripted. How would I know this? Just read any thread on how to kill X. That should be fairly straightforward.
You’ve either never raided in WoW or you’ve raided and done it poorly. That’s why I suggested that you watch someone masterful at it. You are not that person, so please don’t go by your personal experience. Watch the videos of Method and then watch videos of, say, DnT. Everything you need to know about the relative complexity of the mechanics will be evident in players playing at the top of their respective game. GW2 combat is mind-numbingly simple compared to WoW.
Oh please. Don’t give me that. I’ve raided for years, as I’ve said, both as tank (pally) and dps (hunter). Every new raid was the exact same thing… the top guilds would “beta” the raid, being given the script of the fight from Blizzard then the time to perfect the script, record the fight and put out “how to” videos for everyone else to learn the script. Then when released, every raid started with the same thing – ‘Go watch the video and learn how to do the fight’. There’s no art or sophistication in being told by an add on when to go where or what the boss is about to do so you can be ready for it. All the top guilds do is follow the script really well and have the gear to pull off the fight, nothing more. There’s no chaos, no unexpected occurrences, just dancing to a script.
Right. And stack and wail is the epitome of satisfying combat for some I suppose. Again, please don’t go by your experience. Seek out examples of those who know how to play their respective games and compare.
I get a kick out of your defense that since I don’t agree with you somehow my raid play was sub-par. Adorable. My years of past experience are what I have to go by, and your failure to debunk the facts I’ve laid out speaks volumes.
You know what? Stack and wail isn’t ideal in my opinion either. That’s not the fault of the combat, though, it’s the fault of two things in my opinion… first bosses needing more complicated mechanics that reduce the optimal effects many currently have when you do stack and wail and second people’s inherent nature to hunt down and find the easiest and fastest path to completion. Stack and wail isn’t required nor is it necessary in GW2, just for many it’s fastest. Fortunately the newer fights are showing that ANet is creating more complicated fights where your basic stack and wail simply won’t be ‘optimal’ anymore, such as with the Marionette.
What facts have you laid out that I’ve failed to debunk, exactly. You said that raiding at the highest level in WoW took no strategy. How exactly would one deal with this other than to suggest that your experience may not have been normative? What would solve this for you is to watch examples of people playing that actually knew how to play. That would disabuse you entirely from any idea that GW2 combat took more skill or was more complex than WoW’s. It isn’t and all you need to do is observe the combat to know this.
Sorry… I have to chime in on this one. If WoW is going to be our basis for what good team combat is supposed to be, then we’re in trouble. The combats were scripted. It was more of a coreographed dance that a grade school child could perform.
Honestly, I have no desire to go back to that playstyle. I really don’t.
I can still remember the DPS meters deciding whether or not you were “good enough” to run a dungeon. Ugh.
You obviously are unaware of the state of GW2 combat. Watch DnT dungeon videos at random. What you will see is stand here, because the boss can’t hit you and DPS the boss down. Then run through the instance this way so you don’t aggro any mobs. It is brain dead. Meters? How could they even have meters in this game. They don’t account for condition damage by player. How would players feel if the knew they were only doing ‘white’ damage. Regardless of whether meters are good or bad you couldn’t even have them in this game.
Did I say one thing about GW2 combat? I was merely saying that WoW combat was no better. And since it uses the trinity as the overwhelming basis for it, the trinity is no better.
Yes, you were saying things about WoW combat that didn’t even consider how it compared to GW2. GW2 combat is absolutely brain dead compared to WoW combat. The trinity is part of that, but not the deciding factor.
You’ve either never raided in WoW or you’ve raided and done it poorly. That’s why I suggested that you watch someone masterful at it. You are not that person, so please don’t go by your personal experience. Watch the videos of Method and then watch videos of, say, DnT. Everything you need to know about the relative complexity of the mechanics will be evident in players playing at the top of their respective game. GW2 combat is mind-numbingly simple compared to WoW.
Oh please. Don’t give me that. I’ve raided for years, as I’ve said, both as tank (pally) and dps (hunter). Every new raid was the exact same thing… the top guilds would “beta” the raid, being given the script of the fight from Blizzard then the time to perfect the script, record the fight and put out “how to” videos for everyone else to learn the script. Then when released, every raid started with the same thing – ‘Go watch the video and learn how to do the fight’. There’s no art or sophistication in being told by an add on when to go where or what the boss is about to do so you can be ready for it. All the top guilds do is follow the script really well and have the gear to pull off the fight, nothing more. There’s no chaos, no unexpected occurrences, just dancing to a script.
Right. And stack and wail is the epitome of satisfying combat for some I suppose. Again, please don’t go by your experience. Seek out examples of those who know how to play their respective games and compare.
I get a kick out of your defense that since I don’t agree with you somehow my raid play was sub-par. Adorable. My years of past experience are what I have to go by, and your failure to debunk the facts I’ve laid out speaks volumes.
You know what? Stack and wail isn’t ideal in my opinion either. That’s not the fault of the combat, though, it’s the fault of two things in my opinion… first bosses needing more complicated mechanics that reduce the optimal effects many currently have when you do stack and wail and second people’s inherent nature to hunt down and find the easiest and fastest path to completion. Stack and wail isn’t required nor is it necessary in GW2, just for many it’s fastest. Fortunately the newer fights are showing that ANet is creating more complicated fights where your basic stack and wail simply won’t be ‘optimal’ anymore, such as with the Marionette.
What facts have you laid out that I’ve failed to debunk, exactly. You said that raiding at the highest level in WoW took no strategy. How exactly would one deal with this other than to suggest that your experience may not have been normative? What would solve this for you is to watch examples of people playing that actually knew how to play. That would disabuse you entirely from any idea that GW2 combat took more skill or was more complex than WoW’s. It isn’t and all you need to do is observe the combat to know this.
Sorry… I have to chime in on this one. If WoW is going to be our basis for what good team combat is supposed to be, then we’re in trouble. The combats were scripted. It was more of a coreographed dance that a grade school child could perform.
Honestly, I have no desire to go back to that playstyle. I really don’t.
I can still remember the DPS meters deciding whether or not you were “good enough” to run a dungeon. Ugh.
You obviously are unaware of the state of GW2 combat. Watch DnT dungeon videos at random. What you will see is stand here, because the boss can’t hit you and DPS the boss down. Then run through the instance this way so you don’t aggro any mobs. It is brain dead. Meters? How could they even have meters in this game. They don’t account for condition damage by player. How would players feel if the knew they were only doing ‘white’ damage. Regardless of whether meters are good or bad you couldn’t even have them in this game.
You’ve either never raided in WoW or you’ve raided and done it poorly. That’s why I suggested that you watch someone masterful at it. You are not that person, so please don’t go by your personal experience. Watch the videos of Method and then watch videos of, say, DnT. Everything you need to know about the relative complexity of the mechanics will be evident in players playing at the top of their respective game. GW2 combat is mind-numbingly simple compared to WoW.
Oh please. Don’t give me that. I’ve raided for years, as I’ve said, both as tank (pally) and dps (hunter). Every new raid was the exact same thing… the top guilds would “beta” the raid, being given the script of the fight from Blizzard then the time to perfect the script, record the fight and put out “how to” videos for everyone else to learn the script. Then when released, every raid started with the same thing – ‘Go watch the video and learn how to do the fight’. There’s no art or sophistication in being told by an add on when to go where or what the boss is about to do so you can be ready for it. All the top guilds do is follow the script really well and have the gear to pull off the fight, nothing more. There’s no chaos, no unexpected occurrences, just dancing to a script.
Right. And stack and wail is the epitome of satisfying combat for some I suppose. Again, please don’t go by your experience. Seek out examples of those who know how to play their respective games and compare.
I get a kick out of your defense that since I don’t agree with you somehow my raid play was sub-par. Adorable. My years of past experience are what I have to go by, and your failure to debunk the facts I’ve laid out speaks volumes.
You know what? Stack and wail isn’t ideal in my opinion either. That’s not the fault of the combat, though, it’s the fault of two things in my opinion… first bosses needing more complicated mechanics that reduce the optimal effects many currently have when you do stack and wail and second people’s inherent nature to hunt down and find the easiest and fastest path to completion. Stack and wail isn’t required nor is it necessary in GW2, just for many it’s fastest. Fortunately the newer fights are showing that ANet is creating more complicated fights where your basic stack and wail simply won’t be ‘optimal’ anymore, such as with the Marionette.
What facts have you laid out that I’ve failed to debunk, exactly. You said that raiding at the highest level in WoW took no strategy. How exactly would one deal with this other than to suggest that your experience may not have been normative? What would solve this for you is to watch examples of people playing that actually knew how to play. That would disabuse you entirely from any idea that GW2 combat took more skill or was more complex than WoW’s. It isn’t and all you need to do is observe the combat to know this.
You’ve either never raided in WoW or you’ve raided and done it poorly. That’s why I suggested that you watch someone masterful at it. You are not that person, so please don’t go by your personal experience. Watch the videos of Method and then watch videos of, say, DnT. Everything you need to know about the relative complexity of the mechanics will be evident in players playing at the top of their respective game. GW2 combat is mind-numbingly simple compared to WoW.
Oh please. Don’t give me that. I’ve raided for years, as I’ve said, both as tank (pally) and dps (hunter). Every new raid was the exact same thing… the top guilds would “beta” the raid, being given the script of the fight from Blizzard then the time to perfect the script, record the fight and put out “how to” videos for everyone else to learn the script. Then when released, every raid started with the same thing – ‘Go watch the video and learn how to do the fight’. There’s no art or sophistication in being told by an add on when to go where or what the boss is about to do so you can be ready for it. All the top guilds do is follow the script really well and have the gear to pull off the fight, nothing more. There’s no chaos, no unexpected occurrences, just dancing to a script.
Right. And stack and wail is the epitome of satisfying combat for some I suppose. Again, please don’t go by your experience. Seek out examples of those who know how to play their respective games and compare.
I’m leveling a monk in WoW as we speak and queuing for dungeons as they open up. I have never once spammed chat for healers or tanks. I use the excellent LFG tool and it does all the work. It takes far less time to put a group together under the trinity than it does in GW2. I’m averaging 3 minute queues as DPS. This is a marketing BS to sell a system other than the trinity and it simply isn’t true.
Yeah with the LFG tool sure.
Wait till you start pugging raids, or raiding in general… enjoy the BS there. There’s LOADS of it. (And I mean, even if you get into a guild and get a constant raid spot, think about your position in the guild in relation to guild leader/raiders and those that are not… there’s loads of social (and drama) bullkitten aside from just class roles).
3 minute queues… that’s cute. It’s instant for a tank and/or healer. Wait till you hit max lvl… lol…
Yeah, it’s cheating with a functional LFG tool, right? The only raids I pug for are LFR raids at max level and that’s pretty much the experience I just described. I have 6 max level characters in WoW and 15 in GW2. When you are max level and doing flex or normal raids it’s by far preferable to do them with a guild. Bottom line, the trinity doesn’t add anything problematic to the player experience. It’s a myth that’s accepted and promulgated by inexperienced players.
Don’t know… know last time I queued for LFR on my rogue (a week ago) the wait was 25minutes – 30 minutes… but LFR is LFR (looking for kittens), hardest part is having the nerve to sit through it…. Anyways…
I would argue that the trinity is one of the core problems with WoW… You said to do flex or normal raids you need a guild. How do you get a spot in a raid group? Usually how many DPS are there in a guild vs tanks/healers? What happens when on a raid night the healer or tank doesn’t show up? How fast can you get a replacement tank/healer compared to a DPS?
Even in an LFR or a dungeon, what happens when a tank (or both tanks) leave, can the group keep going? Assuming it’s a dungeon, if one dps leaves, can the group go on rather smoothly without them?
No, I didn’t say you needed a guild for flex, normal, heroic, I said it was preferable. Why would you want to pug this content? Honestly, I can’t remember the last time a tank left an instance. It has happened but it’s not anything that shapes the experience. And, if a tank or healer leaves they are, as you say, replaced immediately. If a dps leaves, of course they are replaced immediately. It’s a non-issue.
I’m leveling a monk in WoW as we speak and queuing for dungeons as they open up. I have never once spammed chat for healers or tanks. I use the excellent LFG tool and it does all the work. It takes far less time to put a group together under the trinity than it does in GW2. I’m averaging 3 minute queues as DPS. This is a marketing BS to sell a system other than the trinity and it simply isn’t true.
Yeah with the LFG tool sure.
Wait till you start pugging raids, or raiding in general… enjoy the BS there. There’s LOADS of it. (And I mean, even if you get into a guild and get a constant raid spot, think about your position in the guild in relation to guild leader/raiders and those that are not… there’s loads of social (and drama) bullkitten aside from just class roles).
3 minute queues… that’s cute. It’s instant for a tank and/or healer. Wait till you hit max lvl… lol…
Yeah, it’s cheating with a functional LFG tool, right? The only raids I pug for are LFR raids at max level and that’s pretty much the experience I just described. I have 6 max level characters in WoW and 15 in GW2. When you are max level and doing flex or normal raids it’s by far preferable to do them with a guild. Bottom line, the trinity doesn’t add anything problematic to the player experience. It’s a myth that’s accepted and promulgated by inexperienced players.
I’m leveling a monk in WoW as we speak and queuing for dungeons as they open up. I have never once spammed chat for healers or tanks. I use the excellent LFG tool and it does all the work. It takes far less time to put a group together under the trinity than it does in GW2. I’m averaging 3 minute queues as DPS. This is a marketing BS to sell a system other than the trinity and it simply isn’t true.
I can give you a method for evaluating your claim. One of the things I like to do in any game I play is watch and study the videos (and other materials) of the top guilds and players. Pick any top raiding guild like Method in WoW and watch a few videos. Then for comparison pick a top guild in GW2 that’s doing videos and watch a few.
On the trinity side you’ll notice that the richness of the encounter does not grow out of presence or absence of the trinity—that would be the encounter design and fight mechanics, and they are rich and call for both strategy and flawless execution. If you are lucky enough to find one with commentary it will sound something like Norman Schwarzkopf describing the initiation of the gulf war.
What will you find on the GW2 side? Well, I noticed that a theme emerged early. In the videos you will learn where to stack so that you can hit the boss, but they can’t hit you. (I had to laugh when one guy described this as LoS. Well, yes, I suppose.) Then after the boss is burned down by the berserkers-only group just wailing on him, you next learn strategies to avoid aggro in getting to the next boss.
In other words I’m suggesting you get some actual experience of the two systems. If you would honestly do this you wouldn’t hold the position you currently do.
There’s no strategy in a WoW style raid. There’s a script. You follow the script, you win. You don’t, you wipe. It’s really that simple. You’re given an assignment and that’s all you do. No thinking on the fly, no contingencies, just follow the script to win. The challenge isn’t built around the players skills, it’s built around the players gear and their ability to follow a script, period.
The non-trinity style, however, where every profession is viable allows you to take any mix of characters, so each fight has it’s own nuances and differences. You’re only thinking of the ‘4 warriors and a mesmer’ scenario, but the reality is that any group of characters can successfully do the fights and with each mix there’s variability you can’t find in a scripted trinity fight.
You’ve either never raided in WoW or you’ve raided and done it poorly. That’s why I suggested that you watch someone masterful at it. You are not that person, so please don’t go by your personal experience. Watch the videos of Method and then watch videos of, say, DnT. Everything you need to know about the relative complexity of the mechanics will be evident in players playing at the top of their respective game. GW2 combat is mind-numbingly simple compared to WoW.
GW2 has a new and improved trinity: Damage, Control, Support. A far superior, more flexible and more complex system. A system that requires a lot more team coordination to really shine.
orly
Yes, really. […]
How anyone can see complexity in this system is beyond me, sorry.
I see more depth in my 2D TV if I wear 3D classes, than I see in the role system of GW2…
Your sig seems to indicate you play a mesmer, and you can’t see the complexity in the system? That’s a little worrisome. Are you aware of what skills you have and not only what they do but when is a better time to use them? The various ways you can use focus 4 for a variety of effects? The value of chaos storm in damage, control and support simultaneously? Do you spam great sword 3 off cool down or are there more opportunistic times to use it? Any of that stuff? How about the variability with casting feedback (with or without a target), or how traits can enhance null field and feed back to have even greater effects, which can completely alter how/when you’d cast them?
No depth?
Because it doesn’t change the fact, that PvE is (and will be even after the zerker gear nerf) all about max damage melee might stacking.
And PvP is all about the meta.
There is only one role in PvE, DD. Support and Control? That’s just gimmicky stuff that most classes in games with a trinity have too.
There is the meta in PvP, you are in the meta, or you are out.
This game has no role variety, not even if you try hard to make one up…
I don’t remember whether I properly thanked you for your Mesmer guide, but I used it while leveling my Mesmer, and I have never been so thoroughly entertained while being guided.
Yeah, I’m not writing in support of the trinity, though it may appear so. I began doing a lot of thinking when I noticed how hollow combat felt in GW2 compared to the trinity games. I came to the conclusion, not that we were missing the trinity, but rather meaningful combat roles beyond DD. It’s sad but we don’t really have even DoT (that works) to provide other interesting trade-offs in combat.
The zerker nerf is interesting in that it supposedly addresses the zerker “problem” and will make no difference whatsoever in the meta. DPS is king and zerker will still provide the highest DPS. I suppose some might feel relatively less stigmatized for not wearing zerker in PvE.
The simplest way to think of it is this… if GW2 had the trinity then fights like the Marionette wouldn’t exist. Trinity combat all breaks down to the same script – tank taunts, healer focuses on the tank, every now and then throw a twist at the dps so they don’t fall asleep. Without the trinity we can have fights like this where we divide into five groups which further get divided into five groups which all have to work together successfully in order to favorably progress the fight. There’s a randomness that defies a set script so you need to be on your toes and pay attention.
That couldn’t be farther from the truth.
In fact I think that the devs of GW2 are quite limited in the amount of mechanics that they can introduce to fights because of all the chaos that their PvE group combat engenders. You can’t really reproduce the unique encounter mechanics that games like WoW or FFXIV have and that makes every boss feel unique and different if the fights are random and uncontrollable.
I play a tank in another MMO and I’m doing far more than just sitting in front of a boss and trading blows like an idiot, and I hate to say this but the fights have WAY more interesting mechanics than most of GW2’s PvE encounters. If a MMO has tanks sit in front of bosses and healers spam heals in the back all the time, it’s a problem with that MMO’s developers or game engine, not with the trinity. The trinity can do every fight a DPS-only design can do, and it usually does it better too because it allows people with more defensive-oriented playstyles to play their way and feel useful.
GW2 desperately needs a new PvE model. It doesn’t have to be the trinity (and it probably wouldn’t be) but things need to change. DPS/Control/Support anyone?
We seriously need a CDI on dungeons, fractals and instanced PvE…
Agreed. I actually don’t believe he has played a trinity game. His post is an extended non-sequitur.
The years I spend in WoW raiding as both tank and dps would tend to disagree with you a bit. Seriously, how would a fight like the Marionette fight work in a trinity based system? You’d have to change it dramatically. You’d be forced to somehow make sure a tank and healer were available for and put on every platform, or you’d have to get rid of the platforms and have the entire lane fight a single boss. You could not have a fight like the Marionette. Since you’ve been kind enough to accuse me of drifting into the warm and fuzzy realm of non-sequitur why don’t you extend that kindness and tell us all how you could design the Marionette fight, as much as it is as possible, with a trinity based combat system. Please, enlighten us.
I can give you a method for evaluating your claim. One of the things I like to do in any game I play is watch and study the videos (and other materials) of the top guilds and players. Pick any top raiding guild like Method in WoW and watch a few videos. Then for comparison pick a top guild in GW2 that’s doing videos and watch a few.
On the trinity side you’ll notice that the richness of the encounter does not grow out of presence or absence of the trinity—that would be the encounter design and fight mechanics, and they are rich and call for both strategy and flawless execution. If you are lucky enough to find one with commentary it will sound something like Norman Schwarzkopf describing the initiation of the gulf war.
What will you find on the GW2 side? Well, I noticed that a theme emerged early. In the videos you will learn where to stack so that you can hit the boss, but they can’t hit you. (I had to laugh when one guy described this as LoS. Well, yes, I suppose.) Then after the boss is burned down by the berserkers-only group just wailing on him, you next learn strategies to avoid aggro in getting to the next boss.
In other words I’m suggesting you get some actual experience of the two systems. If you would honestly do this you wouldn’t hold the position you currently do.
So, does this all matter? Not really. Guild Wars 2 is doomed to fail due to simple, inevitable entropy. Eventually, at some future time, the game is going to shut down. Next week, next year, next decade. In the face of that inevitability, nothing matters.
I was right there with you right up to this. It does matter. It is the human condition that we oppose an inevitable entropy. Herein we are heroes.
salutes
Finally someone that understands.
I’m not going to play a game that renders all my efforts useless and keeps me on an endless treadmill to nowhere, especially not if this endless threadmill keeps milking me of my money. I play Guild Wars 2 because I thought it’d not have endless vertical progression and planned obsolescence. GW1 was king at this. And I’ll be up on the barricades to make sure that GW2 will eventually live up to its legacy and not stray from the path even as the developers stray away from what makes this franchise special and turn their back on every principle set forth in the manifesto.
And by the way, entropy isn’t that inevitable at all. One can only break the laws of nature when one understands that they’re not set in stone.
Yes, I too oppose the mandate that we ride a power curve. I still count that the worst decision by Anet to date. Entropy, I suppose, is only inevitable if you consider the universe a closed system. I believe that, even if that is true, order is free to increase in any corner where it is sought. And, furthermore, I see the opposition to entropy as being, perhaps, the singular vocation of humans.
So, does this all matter? Not really. Guild Wars 2 is doomed to fail due to simple, inevitable entropy. Eventually, at some future time, the game is going to shut down. Next week, next year, next decade. In the face of that inevitability, nothing matters.
I was right there with you right up to this. It does matter. It is the human condition that we oppose an inevitable entropy. Herein we are heroes.
It’s true, but really, as I just said to Gene, this is really just an indulgement in hyperbole like everyone else assuming that this pick is going to set the first step to ruining the game.
Depending on which detail about the pick you want to complain about, the precedent has always been there, and it’s simply in the hands of the developers and cash store team to not be overly lax on what they stamp on making available.
Final question: would we still be having this conversation if it was a 1% chest drop from a successful Marionette event or available from Cash Shop?
I don’t honestly know the answer to your question. I don’t actually have a problem with the pick.
So, does this all matter? Not really. Guild Wars 2 is doomed to fail due to simple, inevitable entropy. Eventually, at some future time, the game is going to shut down. Next week, next year, next decade. In the face of that inevitability, nothing matters.
I was right there with you right up to this. It does matter. It is the human condition that we oppose an inevitable entropy. Herein we are heroes.
I’m not sure if giving players more opportunities to get sprockets (without spending gems or finishing achievements) would help the core issue of this matter, but it might temper some frustrations.
It would not at all help the core issue, as the core issue isn’t sprockets. The issue is that there is an item, available only through the gem store and nowhere else in the game, that gives a distinct advantage to those with said item compared to those without. Added to that is the issue this creates with past owners of the permanent tools and the lack of consumer faith this creates.
The core issue, then, is the entire precedent this creates and the damage it can do now, and in the future, to the integrity of the game.
That’s okay. You don’t need to explain it to me; I already understand. I just try not to speak in absolutes when voicing my opinions.
“I’m not sure” = I can’t tell the future
“core issue” = advantage the tool gives
“temper frustrations” = compromise that doesn’t make everyone happy but sympathizes with ArenaNet’s reasons.
Just to avoid confusion.
Wrong. Any infinite anything that otherwise cost gold in game is pay to win. You are paying real world money so you don’t have to pay in game money. That is technically pay to win. And I can make the same argument towards the molten alliance pick that you guys bought. You guys got exactly what you paid for and you decided to pay to win. Now a new pay to win item is better than your old pay to win item. And now instead of paying more to win you wan’t ANET to give you free wins and maybe if we QQ hard enough they will.
What this is saying is that all RMT monetization schemes are, essentially, P2Win. I mean if $$ are in any way convertible to in-game currency then this is so. Given that this is the current vogue in monetization, this would mean that every non-sub game currently is Pay2win. Is this so?
I would like to point out that your statement on power creep would be accurate if it was in the literal sense of the Power stat related to the functionality of a character in battle. This is, however, a discussion of a power creep in the sense of one item that has consistently had a static functionality now progressing into the arena of now possessing more functionality than those previous versions, thus making the previous versions obsolete. It is not discussing power creep in relation to a player’s Power attribute, but of a power creep in the sense that this item is now no longer on par with all of its counterparts and is more ‘powerful’ in that it has all of the functionality of those plus more; this is vertical progression, despite not being vertical progression of armor and weapon attributes.
While I understand what you mean with two senses of power creep, I agree with what Raine said a few posts up: both versions of power creep do the same thing. Let me explain. One of the versions, according to you is where your attributes are scaling upwards. However, look at where these stat points come from: your gear, which is now obsolete, as you say, because there is something more powerful, even if it is only +166 instead of +155 (you can fill in whatever sets of scaling numbers you want). So, I would argue that both types do the same thing: one adds functionality, one adds more points; it doesn’t matter.
As to my own opinion, I will not be getting one because it wouldn’t be worth my money, gold or irl. I don’t know about the P2W mentioned in the terminated thread, but it does definitely walk a very fine line, and sets a dangerous precedent.
tl;dr Both types are the same, but the new pick was still a bad move by Anet.
One thing to consider is that the opposite of power creep, or vertical progression, is horizontal progression. In it’s classical form it adds functionality to the game through skill or ability progression, but, at the same time, it has nothing to do with power creep or vertical progression. Adding functionality does not equal power creep. Only adding power produces power creep.
One thing to be clear on is that this has nothing whatsoever to do with power creep as it has nothing to do with increasing the power level of the game. That would be around ascended gear and the power creep it brought to the game not about gear grinds—right!
You’ve got to buy all picks, right? If they offer a pick of exceptional ability you are going to have to pay for it, right? What exactly is the problem of paying for it through the gemstore. Sounds like a win/win to me. Unlike, of course, the real power creep of vertical progression which is definitely lose/lose no matter how you consider it.
I would like to point out that your statement on power creep would be accurate if it was in the literal sense of the Power stat related to the functionality of a character in battle. This is, however, a discussion of a power creep in the sense of one item that has consistently had a static functionality now progressing into the arena of now possessing more functionality than those previous versions, thus making the previous versions obsolete. It is not discussing power creep in relation to a player’s Power attribute, but of a power creep in the sense that this item is now no longer on par with all of its counterparts and is more ‘powerful’ in that it has all of the functionality of those plus more; this is vertical progression, despite not being vertical progression of armor and weapon attributes.
Power creep has only one sense. Google it.
I do not agree with your statement. Your statement and tone also implies you are not open to a discussion on this matter so I will not be making any further replies to you in regards to this.
No worries. Yes, I understand power creep and I am not open to alternate meanings of a clear term and concept. I believe you have understood me correctly.
One thing to be clear on is that this has nothing whatsoever to do with power creep as it has nothing to do with increasing the power level of the game. That would be around ascended gear and the power creep it brought to the game not about gear grinds—right!
You’ve got to buy all picks, right? If they offer a pick of exceptional ability you are going to have to pay for it, right? What exactly is the problem of paying for it through the gemstore. Sounds like a win/win to me. Unlike, of course, the real power creep of vertical progression which is definitely lose/lose no matter how you consider it.
I would like to point out that your statement on power creep would be accurate if it was in the literal sense of the Power stat related to the functionality of a character in battle. This is, however, a discussion of a power creep in the sense of one item that has consistently had a static functionality now progressing into the arena of now possessing more functionality than those previous versions, thus making the previous versions obsolete. It is not discussing power creep in relation to a player’s Power attribute, but of a power creep in the sense that this item is now no longer on par with all of its counterparts and is more ‘powerful’ in that it has all of the functionality of those plus more; this is vertical progression, despite not being vertical progression of armor and weapon attributes.
One thing to be clear on is that this has nothing whatsoever to do with power creep as it has nothing to do with increasing the power level of the game. That would be around ascended gear and the power creep it brought to the game not about gear grinds—right!
You’ve got to buy all picks, right? If they offer a pick of exceptional ability you are going to have to pay for it, right? What exactly is the problem of paying for it through the gemstore. Sounds like a win/win to me. Unlike, of course, the real power creep of vertical progression which is definitely lose/lose no matter how you consider it.
Norns win for character visualization and humans win for character navigation. You can pick which is most important to you—looking at your character or actually playing your character.
What needs love from the devs is both pets and the archetypal ranger, i.e., one with a bow. Rangers are actually OK if they are not using a bow, which, of course, is silly on the face of it.
