Guild Wars 2

Shirogatsu.3150:

To be honest, I think JS music in GW2 is pure fail.
In GW1 i’ve heard a lot of beautiful melodies, which I’m listening to this day. And the first song from GW2 which I saved – Battle on the Breachmaker

As has been oft said, there is no accounting for taste.

Exosferatu.2961:

I like Leif and Maclaine more than Soule!

Battle on the Breachmaker
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=faySfB1Kt6M

The Clocktower
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J9lMQvO8_I8

Couldn’t agree less. A simple iteration over a simple theme. It’s not composition.

Tai Kratos.3247:

@Twyll

I’ve actually studied Chinese classical music and theory before, and there is a big problem with that track if it is trying to imitate Asian music. Because that music is all about tone color and manipulation of tone color, and the sampled flute (sounded like a flute run through some filters or something) lacked any of those subtleties.

The fight with scarlet is basically four chords over and over again, with choir and brass walking stepwise between chord tones. The ending part with the piano is kind of cool, but still it’s just fast arpeggiation. So there isn’t much intellectually going on there. Maybe emotionally there is enough – and that’s usually enough for people – but I find that the emotional content is that much richer if there is a strong intellectual support underneath it.

And there is nothing complicated, intellectual or detailed about four chord songs. The piano part was cool, but the chords left much wanting.

EDIT
Hahaha, Phillip Glass…. never really understood the hype over him and his music. Or minimalism in general… kind of seems like an easy out for composing hours of music, right?

Right. There is actually something ‘complicated’ and compelling about three chord songs. Books have been written about it. Knowledge sometimes fails us it seems. Or, perhaps it’s just modern education.

But, as one infracted for commenting honestly on this sillyness, I will simply leave this without comment.

Lux.7169:

Haha, I was hoping for SAB but this will suffice.

Some are easily pleased.

Soule is excellent and what we have with GW2 now are amateurs. Do I miss him? Well, if he’s with EQNext perhaps not.

This is one of those rare threads where it says a lot more about the player base than Anet.

Berelious.3290:

Honestly, if you guys hadn’t been paying attention to the fact that it’s April Fools and are ignorant of ANet’s history of pulling a joke every year, it’s you’re own dang fault. And so is your lack of a sense of humor. I recommend you get one from the gem store ASAP!

Or, you could simply question the advisability of it, as in was this a good idea. Of course, reality testing is not Anet’s strong suit.

Wonder what the average age, or general maturity, of the playerbase is?

Seriously? awesome? Some people are very easy to please.

Could you imagine if the energy and effort this required was put into making the game better?

This is why I’ve suggested Anet get a Chief Reality Testing Officer. They obviously can’t do it themselves.

Bad Judgment? Of course…but that has been a staple of the game since 11/12…what’s new?

If you think about it, the first thing humans do in groups when faced with an objective is define roles. And, this is true whether we’re talking brain surgery or scavenger hunts. It is certainly true of modern combat where a general is able to describe a battle by moving pieces around a graphic labelled ‘infantry’, ‘armored’, ‘artillery’, etc. What we have in GW2 is the most primitive conception of combat imaginable, the berserker battlefield, where everyone simply enrages and goes for it.

Generally, humans do this because it is the most effective way of prosecuting battle. It also, and this is key, gives one a sense of of being needed, of knowing that without your role’s contribution, the battle would have been lost.

This is why you see these threads over and over. It’s not the absence of the trinity that’s at issue here; it’s the absence of meaningful combat roles.

Azreell.1568:

medohgeuh.4650:

Most of what you’re complaining about is due to the way the players approach the game, not so much Anet outside of the Living Story events.

Players play by the systems the developers put in place.

So the systems are the problem – not the players approach.

Yes, most people here, in defending Anet, will blame players for the problems. And, most people don’t realize the extent of design in shaping game culture and play. And, if it were truly a player problem that would mean we could never have a successful game as players would always be at risk of spoiling things by their behavior.

No, we are discussing issues of design, not human nature and behavior.

Yes, it won’t change the zerker meta as zerker gear will still be the highest damage gear. When you only have one combat role, DPS, then the gear that affords the highest DPS will always be preferred.

What the nerf does is essentially balance the game. Vertical progression yielded roughly a 10% increase in the power level of the game in its first year. This nerf removes the increase without having to buff the environment. A simple solution: give the power creep that people grind for and then remove it. Of course, the non-grinders in non-ascended zerker gear are taking it on the chin here and they will experience a net loss in power. This is why when you have a power curve you should realize its mandatory to ride it if you want to play the game long term.

sonicwhip.9052:

This is probably the biggest thing I miss from games like WoW.
When you are feeling bored you can just do some quick duels against random players in the open world.
The whole spvp dueling just doesn’t feel the same because everyone has the highest level, stats, and gear. They should let us duel in the open world with our current level stats,etc.

Yes, this makes perfect sense with the current gear grind focus. It is antithetical, of course, to the historic Anet position on the matter. But, positions change on the drop of a dime here. So, dueling, why not?

kamix.4713:

I believe this question have been asked hundred of times, but Im wondering – why no duel? Why cant I see and challenge my friend for a friendly duel

Why no implementing that?

PS – why no inspect option?

What this game really needs at this point is gearscore. Let’s be honest about this given the current gear grind context.

Conncept.7638:

JBDanger.2603:

Hows it an exploit? Its an actual tactic called a Phalanx if you want to get technical lol.

Never heard of people in phalanx formation overlapping each others bodies.

:)

For Sparta!

I’ve played way more hours than you and all without a legendary or ascended weapon. I did prefer GW2 when it only contained optional grinds.

Yes. There are many ways to define and acquire crap. They all deal with crap however, and there is far too much crap in this game.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

mrstealth.6701:

The worst part is that we’re to a point where games don’t even have a reward system…or even gameplay mechanics in some cases. You just buy whatever you want with real money. Everything is turning into a Facebook/mobile “game” where all you do is decorate a virtual house with cash shop trinkets.

Minecraft, Terraria, Civilization 5, Dwarf Fortress . . . yes, you can do RMT in these games for items.

Wait…

OR wait, they all shipped without mechanics in place and are just existing to pull money out of wallets.

Wait, no that’s Starbound.

Careful with throwing “everything” around like that. It gets painful.

At that point, you’re just paying for access to a shopping mall to spend even more money, and a place to hang out to show off the things you bought.

I’m not claiming that GW2 is at that point, but it sure does have some aspects of it.

If it gets to the point where computer games are like that, or go the way of the mobile “wallet please?” games? I’ll go right on back to my cardboard crack. Magic: The Gathering is at least much more upfront about the fact you’ll be spending money to play beyond a certain casual level.

I actually didn’t learn the lesson of RMT until Diablo 3. RMT effectively puts the player in charge of rewarding themselves. Either through RMT or a bowl of M&Ms next to their computer.

UnseeN.4928:

Molch.2078:

If you think Dungeons are boring, try solo or duo Arah path 3. Have fun.

I prefer playing in a team, at least when that team shares my goals. Unfortunately right now people force others to play zerker and stack our way through. Then there is the problem that whenever a party leader decides to leave, you get kicked out which is ridiculous. And without 3000AP you’re gonna have a hard time getting in a dungeon.

But besides that, being able to do a dungeon path solo is one of the best examples of how bad these dungeons are. They are developed for team play, yet by skipping, stacking and other “exploits” that are possible, you can do them solo. No offence, but thank you for proving my point in a way i didn’t even elaborate yet.

This is not the players fault. People want to do a run witin 10 minutes, not 11 or 12.
So they wield zerker gear and bash people for not doing so. And so they stack and remove you from the dungeon is you do not follow up that order.

TL;DR, No dungeons for me, they’re the worst part of the game by far. Solo or not.

Yes. As one who has played perhaps thousands of instances in another well known game, I really don’t like them at all in GW2. And, the ‘interesting’ open world content such as Teq is as equally interesting as the dungeons.

Vol.7601:

Take a lesson from ESO? lol

There will actually be many lessons for Anet out of ESO and EQ Next. The only question will be whether they fall on deaf ears. I’m betting on deafness.

Razor.6392:

What’s up with all the negative nancies saying that dueling is a bad idea?

Are you honestly refusing a potential new feature? No matter how many times it’s been discussed, it’s been discussed that much because people WANT it.

Unbelievable really. The amount of people resorting to the most unrealistic and far fetched reasons to not have duels astounds me.

Dueling is a must-have feature in every mmo and its primary objective is fun only. It’s like another activity to do, but here the ever-so-bright casual pve masters think that a new metagame or pvp scene will develop from it lmfao. Too funny.

If you understood dueling at all you would understand that its primary objective is not fun, but rather sharpening ones PvP skills. As such, it is already in the game. You can create an instance in which to sharpen your PvP skills via dueling.

Well, at the very least, you didn’t consider body blocking. The problem is not simply stacking, its the entire conception of combat in GW2. That is the problem.

Onisuo.8607:

So yeah, this is not a complaint or anything but this community has reached a new low by making low level characters and speed running the first personal story to completion to get black lion keys. Delete character and rinse repeat.

Either these players are extremely bored or they are so poor that they can’t spend a few bucks to buy the gems from the cash shop.

My God. Do you actually think there is any value in farming BL keys in this way. Seriously?

Vol.7601:

Pie Flavor.1647:

why not do like dota 2 in which you have a separate “test” client independent from the main client, and release all the content first in the test client for a period of 24 to 48 hours, and allow people to test for the surface bugs and problems?

as of now it feels we’re beta testers.

I missed the memo where dota was an MMO

You may have missed that memo, but what about WoW. It is an MMO and has a PTR. Of course, GW2 could never have a PTR and and a two week dev cycle as it simply would not make any sense. But, what exactly about GW2 makes any sense?

The two week DLC value proposition is what I consider to be the second worst mistake made by Anet, right after adding a classical gear grind to a non-grindy game. Bugs you will always have with software. The two week dev cycle simply made them inevitable.

I’ve been playing WoW again. I find it far less grindy. I’m currently doing battlegrounds working on a PvP set. The grind will be over shortly…unlike the grind in GW2.

Dueling has been in the game for quite awhile now, so go for it. Thankfully, they have not added it to open world PvE so far. Since it’s such a bad idea, no doubt this is something they will undoubtedly add to the open world at some point in the future.

Vol.7601:

GW1 is an entirely different game. Game GW1 players do not ‘deserve’ rewards in GW2. It’s nice that they provided a link, but that’s because Anet chooses to.

If Anet released a Torment weapons in their gem shop in GW1, hey, I can understand.

But GW2 is an entirely different game and you shouldn’t be holding it as a leash to GW1.

Your hint that you are completely wrong here lies in the Guild Wars name that both games share. What we have here is a franchise. Releases within a franchise are not “entirely different games”. Rather, each release stands on the shoulders of what has gone before. Anet themselves said that they took everything we liked about GW1 and put it in the context of an MMO.

This is Guild Wars 2; it follows Guild Wars 1. It is not an entirely new game. Guild Wars is a franchise.

Dark Catalyst.1028:

It’s funny because the gear grind here is worse than it is in WoW.

I’m actually back playing WoW. I had come to GW2 to escape the grind among other things and, since Nov-12, GW2 is the grindiest game I’ve ever played. WoW is a piece of cake in comparison. In WoW I can grind out a set of gear in 1-2 months and I’m done grinding for the rest of the tier. Here the grind is never over. GW2 has taught me that a fast steep grind is far less grindy than a long slow one that is never over. And, I can maintain alts in WoW—good luck gearing them up in GW2.

Ashen.2907:

Raine.1394:

That’s all an illusion of vertical progression. Here’s the deal. At stage VP1 all the players and the environment are at power level X. VP2 occurs and all the players hop on the treadmill. They emerge at power level Y. Because you don’t want trivial content, the environment assumes power level Y.

There is no relative difference in power between players before or after vertical progression has occurred. Additionally, there is no relative difference in power between players and environment before or after vertical progression. The emperor has no clothes. No one has actually gone anywhere. Everyone has simply gone on a treadmill ride. They got on and off at the same place.

Afraid that I have to disagree. Characters with the new vertical progression (whatever form it takes) are more powerful compared to the game world as a whole than those who have not acquired it (yet, or never will). In general only the newest content, filled with the newest foes, maintains any sense of power level comparable to the character.

Is a character with the new VP gear balanced against the new content ? Ideally, yes. Does that mean that he is not more powerful ? No. This is objectively demonstrable. Go into a game with VP. Get the top tier gear. Then go play non top tier content. Compare the degree of difficulty in completing this content now, with the gear, to a period when you did not have the gear. Odds are you will complete the content faster, with fewer deaths, generally with greater ease. By definition this means you are stronger compared to that content than was previously the case.

That’s true in WoW or any game that obsoletes old content through VP. Anet balances the environment against the player base power. Otherwise you would have trivialized content and no one wants that. And, your argument sounds an awful lot like segmenting the player base by player power and then calling that a good thing. It’s not in terms of the GW franchise philosophy (I’m not sure about the current Anet philosophy).

Bottom line you can’t be stronger than the environment—it will be adjusted as player power increases. And, yes, you can be stronger than players that don’t ride the treadmill. Ordinarily, it’s essentially not allowed by traditional grindy games. But, I’m not sure how much of the player base thinks that grinders should be rewarded with more power than casual players. No, VP works exactly as I said. And, the progression is purely illusion. It’s just numbers on a character sheet.

jheryn.8390:

Raine.1394:

jheryn.8390:

Raine.1394:

jheryn.8390:

Jeez. These threads are broken records. First we had ascended trinkets/back items and then weapons and then armor. Ascended items have been around for a long time and are not going away. It doesn’t matter at this point what I or anyone else thinks about ascended items. They are here to stay. Get over it. Move on.

My problem is not with ascended items—at all. As far as I’m concerned they can stay forever. My problem is with vertical progression. That can stop at any time. And, it’s more likely to stop if players complain about it. That’s why you see these threads over and over and over.

I agree with you. Except, I don’t see anywhere other than ascended items, where they plan other vertical progression. And all of these threads revolve around the items. If you hate VP, then talk about possible VP that might happen.

Sure, I’d be glad to show you where the ‘other’ VP is. In the AMA Chris W said: “we will have vertical progression moving forward with the focus on zero grind and a very low power curve.” Vertical progression doesn’t progress by stopping. And a power curve is a positive relationship between time and power. As time progresses, the power level of the game increases. They said at the time that they had no immediate plans for an additional tier and would carry VP forward through infusions. So, VP is currently in the game—that’s the problem. And, it will be a problem until it’s removed.

I was asking for you to tell ME where other vertical progression in the game is. I can see it. I was just saying, that people get off the ascended items gripe train. It is a done deal. It is in game. If you want to complain about VP, then do it with things that are not implemented and here to stay. The ascended items threads are broken records.

Again, I have no issue with Ascended gear and don’t believe I have mentioned it as a problem, per se, anywhere. The title of the thread is “To ppl that asked for vertical progression”. I was addressing vertical progression. Many people are confused about the actual issue. It’s not Ascended gear, Ascended is just is stage 1 of VP and stage 2 of the power level of the game.

So, many people complain about Ascended gear because they don’t understand the actual issue. I agree with you; Ascended is here to stay. We should not be complaining about Ascended gear; we should be complaining about vertical progression—which is also here to stay unless they decide to remove it.

Ashen.2907:

Nikaido.3457:

Did you actually get stronger ?

Yes. You can now face tougher foes than you could previously. That is one definition of becoming stronger or better, the ability to accomplish that which was previously beyond your capability.

A chess player who practices a lot so that he wins more, increasing his ELO rating, will then be matched up against tougher opponents. The fact that he now faces higher rated opponents, more of a match for his new skill level, does not mean that he has not become a better, or, “stronger,” player.

That’s all an illusion of vertical progression. Here’s the deal. At stage VP1 all the players and the environment are at power level X. VP2 occurs and all the players hop on the treadmill. They emerge at power level Y. Because you don’t want trivial content, the environment assumes power level Y.

There is no relative difference in power between players before or after vertical progression has occurred. Additionally, there is no relative difference in power between players and environment before or after vertical progression. The emperor has no clothes. No one has actually gone anywhere. Everyone has simply gone on a treadmill ride. They got on and off at the same place.

Aioros.4862:

Nikaido.3457:

Aioros.4862:

Nikaido.3457:

Aioros.4862:

Are you worse or equal at pve or pvp if you’re doing more damage/surviving longer from a stat increase?

In the typical progression mmo, when you get inflated stats on your gear, mobs also follows the inflation. So if you can tank more, the mobs will also do more damage. Did you actually get stronger ? no, you grind so that you can go back to the same power level you had before the new tier of gear. It’s just a constant hamster wheel.

The same being true for pvp in another way, since the players who do care will all grind the new gear, so if you can tank more, the dps opponent in front of you can also damage more, in the end, no one gained anything from it beside wasting their time on a mindless grind.

Vertical progression is stupid and mindless.

Just look at ascended gear. Weapons do 5% more damage. But armor gives 5% damage reduction. So you grind for more damage, but then said damage gets negated by the armor grind. Two people fighting each other in ascended isn’t any different from a pure gameplay point of view as two people fighting each other in exotics.

All it does is make you do content you wouldn’t have wanted to, like grindfarm orr temples all day, so that you can keep your spot on the power curve, rather than be left behind. You’re grinding for the right to do the same thing you would have done if the grind didn’t exist, since the game doesn’t actually change, it’s only a general inflation of numbers.

Oh, i’m with you then, except on one part.

“Did you actually get stronger ?”.
Yes you did, dungeons do not scale, so you just got stronger by dealing more damage and taking less.

This is because GW2 is the only mmo in the world that introduced vertical progression without introducing actual content to follow.
You get new tiers of gear in WoW so that you complete new raids.
GW2 still has the same old instances from years ago with nothing new on the horizon.

But actually, when it comes to PVE speedruns the next balance patch is going to negate the benefits from ascended gear. 10% damage nerf for berserker builds is basically an ascended nerf. Anyone who cared about speedrunning already has ascended gear, and that nerf is going to bring them to the level of damage they used to do on exotics.

Ascended gear is an answer to the wrong question. It didn’t bring anything of worth to this game beside a mindless grind.

We grind for ascended berserker in PVE so that we can have the same power level we.. had on exotics? what a joke.

Won’t people in exotic berserker suffer the same penalty percentage? If so, ascended is still a damage upgrade.

Yes, sort of. People in ascended have no real loss as they at least break even with the nerf. People in Exotics never got the increase in stats so they have a net loss in stats. I’m leaning towards the nerf being a game balancing decision that allows them to not address buffing the environment. Eventually buffing the environment is something that must happen under vertical progression. That or simply taking away players hard earned stat increases with a nerf, of course. But, yeah, sad for those who chose to stay in Exotics.

Magnus Steelgrave.6580:

As being someone who currently and for the last 6 months or so has played casually 1-2 hours a day tops I’ve had my ascended set since the 2nd day it came out and if it makes anyone feel any better I see little to no difference in anything at all… I think people just really blow the “advantage” aspect out of proportion. Its just a big material sink… I could almost argue people who don’t make ascended armor have an advantage because they all possibly have 700 more gold than I do now…. which is no more ridiculous of a statement than “ascended armor ruined the game for me”….

I believe the only value in having a searchable armory with player info is to prevent the ability of players to freely make posts like this one.

IndigoSundown.5419:

judeobscure.2537:

I thought it was understood now that Arenanet had been planning on VP but chose not to announce it until after launch.

I can sort of understand why ANet made the statements they did at the time. However, if you read closely, the quote you offer as your “proof” doesn’t say what you’re concluding. Which I find to be a good thing.

The launch of Ascended disappointed some people. If they actually said that they held back that they planned to change their approach to progression until well after launch, ANet would look even worse. Why? It would look like a callous disregard for the consumer, if not an attempt to collect from GW fans then change the playing field after the 6 months they allowed for refunds (very generous, I’ll give them that) expired for those who bought before BWE1.

You’re welcome to provide an explicit quote that they said what you’re stating, but the one you offered is not it.

Yeah, I noticed that too. They did say that they had intended Ascended gear from the beginning but nowhere do I remember a stated intention around VP.

jheryn.8390:

Raine.1394:

jheryn.8390:

Jeez. These threads are broken records. First we had ascended trinkets/back items and then weapons and then armor. Ascended items have been around for a long time and are not going away. It doesn’t matter at this point what I or anyone else thinks about ascended items. They are here to stay. Get over it. Move on.

My problem is not with ascended items—at all. As far as I’m concerned they can stay forever. My problem is with vertical progression. That can stop at any time. And, it’s more likely to stop if players complain about it. That’s why you see these threads over and over and over.

I agree with you. Except, I don’t see anywhere other than ascended items, where they plan other vertical progression. And all of these threads revolve around the items. If you hate VP, then talk about possible VP that might happen.

Sure, I’d be glad to show you where the ‘other’ VP is. In the AMA Chris W said: “we will have vertical progression moving forward with the focus on zero grind and a very low power curve.” Vertical progression doesn’t progress by stopping. And a power curve is a positive relationship between time and power. As time progresses, the power level of the game increases. They said at the time that they had no immediate plans for an additional tier and would carry VP forward through infusions. So, VP is currently in the game—that’s the problem. And, it will be a problem until it’s removed.

TChalla.7146:

Raine.1394:

Vertical progression is not necessary. What is actually necessary is character progression. Ideally, we are invested in our characters and want to see them progress. The amount of identification with a character varies greatly but all players want their character to expand-evolve-advance whatever you want to call it.

Now, this is where you get to the two dominant methods of character progression, vertical and horizontal. Before you go any further, google “horizontal progression” and read the first couple three hits. These will generally contrast it to vertical progression. Horizontal progression, primarily through ability progression, allows players to vastly expand their characters. Vertical progression actually provides nothing but new numbers on a character sheet. In WoW I started at around 10-15k HP. Now I’m around 500k HP with corresponding increases is power and nothing has changed. I die just as fast and mobs take just as long to kill. The emperor of VP has no clothes.

Contrast that to ability progression where you explore, unlock new skills, and discover ways to enhance those skills. This may completely change your gameplay and utility in groups. This is where true build diversity occurs.

No, vertical progression is not necessary in an MMO. Google ESO +"character progression". What they talk about on their video is essentially skill progression of the horizontal variety regardless of what they do with VP. Why? Because it offers true character progression rather than the larger number VP offers.

I did as you requested and looked up horizontal progression and how it corresponds to vertical progression. I actually read through every topic that came up on the first page of Google, and I found this little nugget under the title “Horizontal Progression Options” and how to expand upon them:

Crafting
Allow players to discover legendary crafting recipes that can produce some of the best items, effects and features in the game. The ingredients would be a challenge to find and prepare, but the results could be comparable to running the most difficult content. All crafting systems – mining, blacksmithing, cooking, woodcrafting – would have these legendary recipes, so there is room for great variety in the items that could be created. It would take time and effort to both find the recipes and craft the items they contain.

Sound familiar?

As far as ESO, their idea of skill progression sounds interesting. However, if there are weapons and armor that can be found that augment damage, healing, whatever, and they create new weapons and armor that are better than what is in the game originally, then I believe that falls under vertical progression, so it exists even in your example. Of course, we won’t know that until the game is underway for at least few months, so only time will tell.

I stick to my original statement that vertical progression (either skill or gear) is a necessity in an MMORPG, unless you want there to be a point where people get bored and stop playing.

And I stick to my position that there are two dominant ways to go and horizontal is superior. BTW, a couple corrections. If you read through all those hits you know that skill or ability progression is the main method of implementing horizontal progression. VP isn’t implemented or managed over time by skills. And, while VP is usually implemented through a gear grind and many refer to it as gear progression, what’s really progressing (increasing) is power (and all associated stats) not gear. The stat inflation could even be effected by infusions to existing gear for that matter. It’s the power creep that distinguishes vertical progression. BTW, there’s a good video on power creep that you may enjoy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bxszx60ZwGw.

And, as long as there is ability or skill progression and new content added periodically no one should be bored just because the character progression is horizontal. They will be more relaxed, but I doubt they will be more bored.

jheryn.8390:

Jeez. These threads are broken records. First we had ascended trinkets/back items and then weapons and then armor. Ascended items have been around for a long time and are not going away. It doesn’t matter at this point what I or anyone else thinks about ascended items. They are here to stay. Get over it. Move on.

My problem is not with ascended items—at all. As far as I’m concerned they can stay forever. My problem is with vertical progression. That can stop at any time. And, it’s more likely to stop if players complain about it. That’s why you see these threads over and over and over.

TChalla.7146:

Vertical progression has been around through the vast array of single player computer RPGs that have been made. Even if there were no levels in the RPG (something that is very rare to not have), there was still the equipment. Run around with a normal sword until the +1 sword comes along, and immediately swap to that because… it was better. Armor would get better, magic items would appear, allowing you to further progress to tougher and tougher creatures until you finished the last quest, thus ending the game.

Tabletop RPGs (PnP) were no different. Yes, there was actual roleplaying involved, and yes you’d get immersed in the world. However, there was always that tinge of excitement when you’d gain a level or find that item that made you more powerful. And even if you didn’t find the item, you could save up gold and… gasp buy that item. And why would you buy the item? Why, to become more powerful, of course! And eventually, you would complete the last quest and finish the campaign, retiring your hero as a champion of the world, or if unlucky, a dead hero or martyr.

Here’s the bottom line, folks. Vertical progression has existed throughout the RPG history. MMORPGs are no different when it comes to progression. There has to be a goal to achieve. In fact, since the MMORPG never really ends, one could say that vertical progression, either through skills or gear, has to be there. What other incentive could there be to continue playing the game? It is all about the power of the character… of achieving bigger and better things, if for no other reason than to go and kill the next big bad monster around the corner. Vertical progression is a necessity.

The argument of whether or not there should be vertical progression is moot. The way the vertical progression has been doled out, however, is a valid topic of debate. I personally don’t have an issue with how it’s been handled, but I can certainly see why others wouldn’t like it as much. I play the game for the enjoyment of playing all aspects of the game… even crafting. This style of progression doesn’t affect me. I do, however, know there are others that don’t enjoy crafting at all, and I agree that they shouldn’t be forced to do it.

Vertical progression is not necessary. What is actually necessary is character progression. Ideally, we are invested in our characters and want to see them progress. The amount of identification with a character varies greatly but all players want their character to expand-evolve-advance whatever you want to call it.

Now, this is where you get to the two dominant methods of character progression, vertical and horizontal. Before you go any further, google “horizontal progression” and read the first couple three hits. These will generally contrast it to vertical progression. Horizontal progression, primarily through ability progression, allows players to vastly expand their characters. Vertical progression actually provides nothing but new numbers on a character sheet. In WoW I started at around 10-15k HP. Now I’m around 500k HP with corresponding increases is power and nothing has changed. I die just as fast and mobs take just as long to kill. The emperor of VP has no clothes.

Contrast that to ability progression where you explore, unlock new skills, and discover ways to enhance those skills. This may completely change your gameplay and utility in groups. This is where true build diversity occurs.

No, vertical progression is not necessary in an MMO. Google ESO +"character progression". What they talk about on their video is essentially skill progression of the horizontal variety regardless of what they do with VP. Why? Because it offers true character progression rather than the larger number VP offers.

Prysin.8542:

For MMORPG’s, vertical progression is a must at some point, sometimes, it arrives too soon, other times, it arrives way way too late.

Why? Why is it a must?

I’m going to say something that will be highly controversial on the forums. Shouldn’t be, but it is. Reward, in a game, should be for playing the game. The MMO has widely diverse opportunities for different playstyles. Open world PvE represents a playstyle for many. Play in the open world should be rewarding.

Rata Sum has the absolute best layout for doing just about anything. I have all the races and they all call RS home.

killcannon.2576:

Raine.1394:

killcannon.2576:

There are no set definitions on google. Just opinion pieces. You may like Taugrim and Experienced Points, but a definition they do not make.

Vertical moves you up and above other players. Examples : Skills, gear stats, story progression to an extent, dungeon progression, crafting, leveling, access to different parts of a game not available to all.

Horizontal does not. Examples: skins, story progression, titles

It’s common sense.

You are wanting to use a very narrow definition to support your views which are not objectively defined anywhere.

Nope. Google the terms if you want to know what they mean. You will not find opinion pieces, at least not on what character progression is. There really aren’t opinions on this aspect of character progression. Opinions come in around whether you prefer a given mode of character progression. I’m not going to respond to you again because you are simply wrong. All you need to do is google the terms to know this, so you are now wrong by choice. The definitions I used are conventionally understood. They are not narrow. And, you do not understand what the terms mean.

I completely understand what they mean. I just choose not to cherry pick.

https://www.google.com/search?q=vertical+progression&oq=verti&aqs=chrome.0.69i59j69i57j0l4.4802j0j7&sourceid=chrome&espv=210&es_sm=122&ie=UTF-8

https://www.google.com/search?q=vertical+progression&oq=verti&aqs=chrome.0.69i59j69i57j0l4.4802j0j7&sourceid=chrome&espv=210&es_sm=122&ie=UTF-8#q=horizontal+progression

There’s your two search queries. Opinions everywhere.

Give me an example of a hit where they suggest that skill or ability progression represents an example of vertical progression, which is what you said it was. What you will find, if you read the results from major gaming sites, is that they all say the same thing about what vertical progression and horizontal progression are. There are no opinions about that. There are opinions about whether one or the other are better. And, if you read the search results, you will learn what the terms mean.

Interestingly, Mike O, founder of Anet agrees with me on this. You said that the kind of progression, skill/ability, that GW1 had was ‘vertical’ progression. Mike said “Because ArenaNet (sort of) held a hard line against all VP with GW1 — no VP ever, year after year…”. Mike said that skill/ability progression is not vertical progression. Nothing special here though, as most people know what the terms mean.

killcannon.2576:

There are no set definitions on google. Just opinion pieces. You may like Taugrim and Experienced Points, but a definition they do not make.

Vertical moves you up and above other players. Examples : Skills, gear stats, story progression to an extent, dungeon progression, crafting, leveling, access to different parts of a game not available to all.

Horizontal does not. Examples: skins, story progression, titles

It’s common sense.

You are wanting to use a very narrow definition to support your views which are not objectively defined anywhere.

Nope. Google the terms if you want to know what they mean. You will not find opinion pieces, at least not on what character progression is. There really aren’t opinions on this aspect of character progression. Opinions come in around whether you prefer a given mode of character progression. I’m not going to respond to you again because you are simply wrong. All you need to do is google the terms to know this, so you are now wrong by choice. The definitions I used are conventionally understood. They are not narrow. And, you do not understand what the terms mean.

killcannon.2576:

Raine.1394:

killcannon.2576:

FlamingFoxx.1305:

Boneheart.3561:

FlamingFoxx.1305:

Boneheart.3561:

FlamingFoxx.1305:

In what way was GW1 grindy?
The end game achievements like vanquishing and cartography sure. But the game itself was not grindy at all – it was entirely story based and armour was very very easy to get.

Armbrace of Truth.

That was completely optional content.
I never even touched that part of the game and I was no better or worse off than anyone else for it.

I’m not seeing you specifying content.

I don’t get what you mean?
You want me to specify how the game didn’t have vertical progression?
The level cap was never raised from 20. The top tier armour stats were never raised – all new and elite/prestige armour was simply cosmetic – it did not provide any in game advantage over other players. Same with weapons – you could get max stat weapons from vendors or from regular drops.

Once you hit maximum achievement points there were never any more.

Everyone in PvP was at the exact same level with access to the exact same gear.

GW1 was a game with a short vertical progression curve. But once you hit level 20 progression was entirely horizontal.

Skills were a form of vertical progression because they made the game easier.

Certain skill sets made your character better at the content than a player without those skills. Vert progression.

Skill or ability progression is probably the primary form of implementing horizontal progression. I just googled “horizontal progression” and in the first hit I found this on HP:

“Rather than equipping characters to face the latest content the MMO world can throw at them, horizontal mechanics point towards the development of a wide range of character attributes that will weather any challenges that lie ahead. Each ability isn’t inherently better than another, but well-researched combinations might create a much more powerful effect.”

Vertical progression has to do with increases to the power level of the game over time. Skill or ability progression is purely horizontal and offers a true expansion of your character. But, it is not vertical…at all.

Simple check here.

Does having the skills or abilities make the content easier than for someone who does not have those skills? If yes then vertical progression. If no then horizontal.

Stat increase is just one form of vertical progression, not it’s entirety. Power creep has to do with increases to statistical power level over time, not vertical progression and is often attributed to gear increases and can be measured by mobs and challenges also increasing in power to keep up with the player. This can be seen in GW1 as your character progresses and the needs of certain skill types in order to complete certain content efficiently.

Vertical progression is anything that sets one player above another.

The game being easier is not the test for VP. You have to understand what the definitions are for the two forms of character progression. And, you can know this easily by googling the terms yourself.

At any rate, vertical progression scales a character vertically over time through increases to a characters power, usually through gear, but it could be through infusions. Basically anything that increases a characters power over time. It has nothing to do with setting a player above another.

Horizontal progression is usually implemented through skill or ability progression. This is not my understanding or my opinion. It’s what the terms mean. Again, just google the terms and you too can understand what they mean.

killcannon.2576:

FlamingFoxx.1305:

Boneheart.3561:

FlamingFoxx.1305:

Boneheart.3561:

FlamingFoxx.1305:

In what way was GW1 grindy?
The end game achievements like vanquishing and cartography sure. But the game itself was not grindy at all – it was entirely story based and armour was very very easy to get.

Armbrace of Truth.

That was completely optional content.
I never even touched that part of the game and I was no better or worse off than anyone else for it.

I’m not seeing you specifying content.

I don’t get what you mean?
You want me to specify how the game didn’t have vertical progression?
The level cap was never raised from 20. The top tier armour stats were never raised – all new and elite/prestige armour was simply cosmetic – it did not provide any in game advantage over other players. Same with weapons – you could get max stat weapons from vendors or from regular drops.

Once you hit maximum achievement points there were never any more.

Everyone in PvP was at the exact same level with access to the exact same gear.

GW1 was a game with a short vertical progression curve. But once you hit level 20 progression was entirely horizontal.

Skills were a form of vertical progression because they made the game easier.

Certain skill sets made your character better at the content than a player without those skills. Vert progression.

Skill or ability progression is probably the primary form of implementing horizontal progression. I just googled “horizontal progression” and in the first hit I found this on HP:

“Rather than equipping characters to face the latest content the MMO world can throw at them, horizontal mechanics point towards the development of a wide range of character attributes that will weather any challenges that lie ahead. Each ability isn’t inherently better than another, but well-researched combinations might create a much more powerful effect.”

Vertical progression has to do with increases to the power level of the game over time. Skill or ability progression is purely horizontal and offers a true expansion of your character. But, it is not vertical…at all.