(edited by Raine.1394)
A significant niche of the modern MMO (yes, I know what it stands for) is the solo player. It makes no sense whatsoever to require groups for open world content. The current game in HoT is not solo friendly—at all. And, you can know this from the common solution to solo problems—find a group. I hope GW2 will, at some point, design for all playstyles: easy grouping for those who desire it, and solo-friendly content for those who wish to play solo.
But you and the OP are the only one in the thread saying this. Most people can either solo the hero points they need, or get people to do them very easily. You don’t have to group to get people in map to come help you with a hero point. I do it all the time.
Determining a minority or majority here on the forums is generally used as a rhetorical device. That is, you are obviously in the minority and therefore your opinion doesn’t matter. This device avoids entirely the discomfort and work of actually engaging with the issue at hand.
My position depends upon the solo player in MMO’s being a niche of concern. Do you think there are people who like to play solo? If so, do you think they might have a problem with content that is not solo-friendly? You know, that content that people say well just group up to complete. And, is HoT group-centered? Ha. It’s nothing but various groups running around.
The point is there is no need to niche it when designing for the modern MMO. You can meet the desires of many constituent groups at the same time. Why not be aware that there are a niche of solo players and include them in the design. This is what they did brilliantly in Central Tyria.
(edited by Raine.1394)
I already said this in the german forums, but I do hope that not all future maps will have the look and feel of the latest ones. They’re really cool, but they wear on you after awhile. Especially when you glide all the way down to the ground, only to find out that the point of interest you were looking for was somewhere between where you started and the ground.
You do realize that the point of interest if you mouse over it shows you how far above or below you it is.
Yes, but sometimes you have to be flying right above the poi or the mastery point, otherwise, if it’s placed on a cliff or on a tree branch, it’s very easy to miss and fly by (for me at least). I also forgot to mention the ones that are underground and up in the canopy… those are really difficult to find and as a new player, I got completely confused.
I’ve come up with a new name for our current game genre: platformer obscura.
Edit: And I already don’t like the new genre.
If you think these maps are like platforming, you need to try some actual platforming. jumping on top of a mushroom that places you exactly where you need to be….not platforming.
Googled platform games. First hit was the wiki. First sentence: “A platform game (or platformer) is a video game which involves guiding an avatar to jump between suspended platforms, over obstacles, or both to advance the game. These challenges are known as jumping puzzles or freerunning. The player controls the jumps to avoid letting the avatar fall from platforms or miss necessary jumps.”
Perfect description of advancing the game through HoT. And, the perfect description of HoT. I did add the “obscura” to platformer as I believe HoT has added obscurity as a unique feature to the platformer genre. Usually the next platform is observable and you make the jump to it. In the case of HoT the destination of the next jump is usually not observable and your next jump is to youtube to find out how to get there: platformer obscura.
Gliding isn’t jumping. There were always things in this game you needed to jump to. That’s a very different thing than glide to. I could see you saying some of the adventures were platforming. It’s a good thing you don’t have to do them to get most of your masteries.
The HoT zones themselves, you have to do very little jumping. Jumping mushrooms don’t even count as jumping because there’s literally no skill involved bar standing on them. I’ve played platform games most of my life. There are minor examples of platforming in Heart of Thorns.
However, the same elements also exist in core Tyria. Jumping puzzles, vistas, they exist in core Tyria.
There is less jumping in HoT, therefore less platforming in HoT.
There are two things essential to a platformer in terms of its definition.
1) Purposive, skill-based navigating from one platform to another.
2) And, more importantly, advancing the game thereby.
There was a heated debate very early in the game about jumping puzzles. They were wildly popular as they had a very talented developer developing and championing them. There was concern that they would become central to the game. Anet assured the players that they would always be ancillary to the core game. They were there if you enjoyed them but they would never be required to advance the game. Perhaps I should offer an example of advancing the game. That would be collecting hero points, general map completion, etc. Now, there always were vista’s and poi’s that verged on jumping puzzles, but I never felt like I was playing a platformer completing core Tyria maps.
HoT is quite different in this regard and I do feel like I’m playing a platformer in order to advance the game. That’s because I am playing a platformer when I’m playing HoT. (Of course, I don’t actually play Hot because I don’t enjoy platformers.)
(edited by Raine.1394)
A significant niche of the modern MMO (yes, I know what it stands for) is the solo player. It makes no sense whatsoever to require groups for open world content. The current game in HoT is not solo friendly—at all. And, you can know this from the common solution to solo problems—find a group. I hope GW2 will, at some point, design for all playstyles: easy grouping for those who desire it, and solo-friendly content for those who wish to play solo.
I already said this in the german forums, but I do hope that not all future maps will have the look and feel of the latest ones. They’re really cool, but they wear on you after awhile. Especially when you glide all the way down to the ground, only to find out that the point of interest you were looking for was somewhere between where you started and the ground.
You do realize that the point of interest if you mouse over it shows you how far above or below you it is.
Yes, but sometimes you have to be flying right above the poi or the mastery point, otherwise, if it’s placed on a cliff or on a tree branch, it’s very easy to miss and fly by (for me at least). I also forgot to mention the ones that are underground and up in the canopy… those are really difficult to find and as a new player, I got completely confused.
I’ve come up with a new name for our current game genre: platformer obscura.
Edit: And I already don’t like the new genre.
If you think these maps are like platforming, you need to try some actual platforming. jumping on top of a mushroom that places you exactly where you need to be….not platforming.
Googled platform games. First hit was the wiki. First sentence: “A platform game (or platformer) is a video game which involves guiding an avatar to jump between suspended platforms, over obstacles, or both to advance the game. These challenges are known as jumping puzzles or freerunning. The player controls the jumps to avoid letting the avatar fall from platforms or miss necessary jumps.”
Perfect description of advancing the game through HoT. And, the perfect description of HoT. I did add the “obscura” to platformer as I believe HoT has added obscurity as a unique feature to the platformer genre. Usually the next platform is observable and you make the jump to it. In the case of HoT the destination of the next jump is usually not observable and your next jump is to youtube to find out how to get there: platformer obscura.
(edited by Raine.1394)
I already said this in the german forums, but I do hope that not all future maps will have the look and feel of the latest ones. They’re really cool, but they wear on you after awhile. Especially when you glide all the way down to the ground, only to find out that the point of interest you were looking for was somewhere between where you started and the ground.
You do realize that the point of interest if you mouse over it shows you how far above or below you it is.
Yes, but sometimes you have to be flying right above the poi or the mastery point, otherwise, if it’s placed on a cliff or on a tree branch, it’s very easy to miss and fly by (for me at least). I also forgot to mention the ones that are underground and up in the canopy… those are really difficult to find and as a new player, I got completely confused.
I’ve come up with a new name for our current game genre: platformer obscura.
Edit: And I already don’t like the new genre.
(edited by Raine.1394)
So, we have a problem with progression. We’ve noted that vertical progression goes nowhere and that’s why it’s called a treadmill. You get on and off at the same place. You can have horizontal progression with cosmetic goals, achievements, or something like skill progression which is what our mastery system is. It’s actually brilliant in that it’s a choice for horizontal and not vertical progression.
However, we’ve noted that, currently, it’s too modal. It follows too closely some designer’s notion of play. The first important question is what should drive the system. That is, you have something that makes some marker “progress” and that’s the question, what makes the system go.
I would say that the safest thing to make the system go would be something that happens naturally whenever we decide to play in whatever way we decide to play. We already have something that accumulates no matter what we do (besides the absence of chat XP). Yes, that’s it, it’s XP. I would argue if you want play it your way, XP has got to be what makes the system go.
Now, you have something that moves the progress bar and you just need to be able to set player goals flexibly.
Now, of course, there can be all kinds of goals that could require elements beyond XP (like location for instance). XP just makes the system go.
The question underlying all this is around a design choice. Is it valuable to value play it your way? If so, how do we make design decisions to create and support it.
Being old, I can remember the old days of lots of stuff including computers and computer science. In the old days UI’s were heavily modal. Designers designed a path to each desired endpoint (screen you actually wanted to get to). If you wanted to get somewhere you followed the designer’s path.
People really didn’t like this because it’s not the way human’s work. It’s much more natural to put down one thing and pick up another rather than follow ten steps to get to the next task.
Games are similar. You can have play it your way or you can have play it the designers way where you follow tracks step-wise in order to get something you actually want. There are lots of problems with the mastery system. The problems start in that you need the results of system in order to play to get the results. What?
I think it can be simplified and said that play is too modal. It follows too much a game designer’s notion of what play looks like. The old Anet actually got this (play it your way), but something happened in the early months after release and they forgot everything they knew.
I do hope they will eventually expand the opportunities to play in central Tyria for those who prefer GW2 to HoT.
I second adding more to core Tyria. Buffing it in every way would be nice QoL for us vanilla players.
GW2 is typical of MMO’s in terms of content. And, there’s a wide variety of things to do off the story track. The previous monthly updates were not bad from a player/story perspective but rather from a software engineering perspective. It’s not sustainable; it’s just not.
My problem is more with direction. HoT is not the game I bought and if I thought HoT was it I’d be gone. But, in terms of general content release I’m quite happy. That said I don’t have a problem with boredom IRL. I actually don’t understand it. I would have to consciously not pay attention in order to be bored so perhaps I’m not a good barometer here.
I am a big fan of reward for playing the game, and playing it my way. XP as the end-game reward track is brilliant at achieving this and I really wish they would have gone this route. Masteries are fine as a tool to provide some variety of things sought for and is not incompatible with actually using XP as the main track of progression.
Overall, the merging of offensive/defensive was very good. It gives me more options with the gear I have. As the title suggests it’s basically the amulet. Probably giving laurels back would have made more people happy but in my situation I’m fine with getting the infusion back. I guess I’ll bump up my MF on the amulet.
The QoL enhancements, and the number of them, were most welcome. Salvage all tops my list. Now if I could just connect to the game and enjoy them…
I’ve switched to Necromancer as my main and greatly feared this balance patch (as I do all balance/QoL patches). At the very least they didn’t ruin my favorite builds. I’m feeling pretty good coming out of this one.
I’ve recommended the removal of the downed state from the beginning. For me, it doesn’t fit with my notion of combat in other games or IRL. That said, it’s a distinctive of this game that, at this late date, appears to be permanent.
[Given the experience of history]
New things.
The unknown.
Scary.
Preferring to delay disappointment, I vote for no advance notice of balance changes.
Not joining a squad is pretty much setting yourself up for failure.
Very true! And, one of the many reasons I so dislike HoT.
I would say it’s easier than ever to farm gold and I’ve played since beta.
4K+ hrs. 1 precursor for an aquatic weapon, so really zero precursors. (The weapon sold for 27g btw)
I have 23 max level characters and never have had an OMG moment in terms of loot.
Principally, it’s Rangers. Almost always, Rangers. Last week I did shudder upon seeing a warrior with a rifle, but it’s the prevalence of the Longbow that situates the problem with the profession. People will blame Rangers, because, well, it’s generally always a Ranger moving the target around the battlefield.
Complaining for the sake of complaining won’t change anything, people have been kittening about PBS for years, and it is way too important of a skill (PvP) to be changed.
(Shhhh. I’m secretly complaining for the sake of learning. I realize it may have limited impact, but I’m driven to it.)
Principally, it’s Rangers. Almost always, Rangers. Last week I did shudder upon seeing a warrior with a rifle, but it’s the prevalence of the Longbow that situates the problem with the profession. People will blame Rangers, because, well, it’s generally always a Ranger moving the target around the battlefield.
I love the profession. I have a max level Ranger of each race and love playing them. But, I hate seeing a Ranger in any group I find myself in. Why? Because I can count on whenever using a hard hitting ability that depends on a target being there for it, the target will surely be removed by a Ranger. If there are multiple Rangers I can depend on them to successively move targets around the battle field. I might as well just auto-attack.
What about Point Blank Shot is so difficult to understand? It’s great when soloing and situationally in group play, but, generally, it should never be used in group play. Why do Rangers use it in their rotation. It’s something that’s annoying every time I play. I’d almost be willing to give it up personally because it seems it’s impossible for people to use properly and regularly has a detrimental effect on others. I guess it might be a good troll ability.
And, you can craft the exotic right away at 400. You just buy the recipe for the insignia and discover each slot. For ascended you’ll have to raise your crafting to ascended level and go through the myriad hoops.
And to you as someone who hates crafting I’d suggest accepting it as the route to your desired stats. As one who believes, like the guild wars of old, that max stats should be trivial to obtain, I don’t like it but I have accepted powercreep as the way this game works. And, creep you will on the road to ascended stats.
I have so many fragments that I could really use a Star. They should make another converter that doesn’t only show up on Wintersday.
Don’t need a converter. With Ascended crafting you can make stars to your hearts content.
Agree with the OP on this. Raids are content. Tiers are not a problem; they are a mechanism to allow more people to experience content. This is actually the acknowledged purpose of tiers in other games I play and I don’t see a problem with this. And, rather than arguing about how to do this just benchmark how it’s been done successfully. The answer is out there.
I bought HoT but don’t play it. That said, gliding was brilliant and I played enough to get it. Elite specializations were interesting but Reaper is the only one I got excited about and play at all. I play Ranger a bit and it’s elite may be a good class but it’s completely outside the ranger archetype—if you want to play a Ranger you probably want to play a ranger.
I think HoT can be improved but not fixed. The obscurity of the maps, platformer gameplay, and grind, are all deep-designed into HoT and nothing you can easily rectify. I’m still playing vanilla and will until I find something equivalently interesting.
The problem with playing HoT for the hero points is that you have to play HoT for them. If the OP likes PvP and not PvE I doubt they will enjoy the platformer that HoT is.
The safest route is to provide reward for playing the game, with as little grind as possible. When confronted with a similar dilemma Diablo introduced an interesting system of acquiring points through experience. This way character progression could, well, progress for any player who simply played the game. Brilliant.
Some people object to experienced based progression as boring, but it certainly knocks it out of the park for players who don’t want to be told how to spend their game time.
Consider the perspective of one who has traveled thousands of miles with Kudzu equipped. I’m going to be the odd one out here and suggest that they level the playing field by toning down 1st gen legendaries rather than buffing those subsequent.
…snip…
Even worse, the fat warrior, fat sage and fat trickster are very known and very loved archetypes in multiple fantasy worlds. People here are seriously saying those character concepts shouldn’t exist?
I think it’s safest to actually go with the archetypes. I mean the safest way to protect ourselves in games from an effete culture. Google images for archetypal warrior; you will be hard pressed to find a fat one. A fat warrior may have existed in a story, but it is not the archetype.
Addressing the underlying issue, I would prefer that video games did not reflect the boring manufactured “issues” of contemporary life. When I play I don’t want to be reminded that we live in a culture with a self imposed victim hierarchy that must be maintained. I want to play in a saner albeit fantasy world.
I think Anet did really well with the mastery system, and I believe most players agree with me.
- Having vertical progression depend on completing various achievements is better than just pure xp grind.
- If you automatically get enough points without even trying to do these objectives, then the mastery points have no purpose.
- Hence, mastery points are fine as is.
Vertical progression is one where the power level of the game increases. The mastery system is an attempt at horizontal progression. And, I’m wondering how you know most players agree with you. The forums present one population of players, chat another. The fact is, we don’t know what most players believe. I don’t agree with you. I believe the attempt at horizontal progression was brilliant, the implementation, not so much.
Skin would be better than nothing, and adding a new 2H axe to the game would be awesome.
I think Maguuma Jungle, Maguuma Wastes, and Heart of Maguuma are distinctly different areas for the purpose of the dailies and I don’t have a problem distinguishing among them. Anet has been naming challenged here and there. I remember when people would argue that they meant WvW to be a part of PvE, rather than what it actually is, PvP
I would prefer the game remain a game with it’s own issues and lore. I specifically don’t want a reflection of our own cultural distinctives and imperatives.
I would have much preferred that elite specializations were simply part of the expansion. Grinding hp’s out in a platformer zone is not fun. Another possibility would be rewarding them for simply playing the game rather than playing the game a certain way in a certain zone.
It’s a player problem without a player solution. In real life you have the courts as a recourse. Here, you may need to fine-tune your security, determine a core group to trust and let them retrieve items for people from the bank.
Why not just get rid of levels entirely? There’s no need to worry about proper scaling when everything is tuned to level 80 stats and abilities after all.
This was always my hope and I still feel that one day it will be done. I would favor a game sans power creep altogether, just horizontal progression well done. A longish tutorial where you are introduced to your character, the story, and the character abilities and then you are loosed onto your adventure with max level gear. Other gear sets (stat-wise) would be easy to acquire for different builds. I was hoping GW2 would realize more of this than it has.
The idea of simply prolonging leveling solves nothing in my opinion. And, it actually diminishes possibilities for an actual end-game.
I remember when they wanted to spice things up in Orr and they gave champs hits of 23k+ with multiple champs in the fight. Basically, instagib. Particle effects were even more outrageous back then so it was always instagib out of nowhere; you would have to read the log to know what killed you. They did revert this in Orr, but yeah, some people think that assured death from the obviously bad decision to enter combat is fun.
(edited by Raine.1394)
Well, do stats matter? It’s what I learned in every game I’ve played (and, in real life as well). If so, read the stats and that will tell you which one is the one to pursue and equip.
If the game was as it was originally conceived, i.e., that max stats were easy to acquire and that cosmetics were the thing sought for, then I would go with Foefire’s Essence, especially if your character is a guardian.
Ye its like tom clancy games, where you need to stealth all over the place.. not my idea of fun. Good Luck With HoT
[snip]
All the maps can be easily got round by watching a video or two and looking up what you need to do on Dulfy. Additionally map chat is full of people probably doing the same things you want to do. I highly recommend using other players to achieve your goals.
I would agree minus the word “easily”. Some people, however, just like to play their game rather than work it through researching how to get to every location (e.g., hero points). Watching videos to play a video game?
And, I’m definitely in the OP’s camp. Sadly I can’t give the stock answers above as they won’t change the game design. The mob difficulty aspects are the same ones we faced in the original Orr, annoying mobs (chain-CC anyone?), mob density, and respawn rate. The mobs seemed to be everywhere and if they caught you in their CC you would die. The mob difficulty is not hard to fix. The inherent obscurity of the map worlds will be hard to fix. Obscurity is deep-designed into the game. The relationship of obscurity and puzzle is a difficult one to navigate. You can end up with fun or frustration and punishment. HoT is not fun for me.
Choosing to use a signet to achieve a 25% speed boost is not a newbie mistake. It is a choice that players make to achieve a 25% movement speed boost. Most professions have a method of achieving a boost but it is always at the cost of something else. It is a trade-off. One thing about a signet solution is that it can always be easily swapped out before entering combat and easier than changing a trait line if that is available though non-optimal, though most players probably would think it’s not something necessary to change in open world play and exploration.
I agree that it seems to be by design. However, I too would prefer that they retain the names you give them. The current implementation means that any pet outside the current set of two has no name and when you recall that pet you must give them the name you have already given them. In practice this means I am constantly naming pets that I have already named. Rather than a bug, I would call this a bad design decision. And, I would also urge the devs to revisit and change it.
Which reminds me, now I can roll a Sylvari elementalist. One little change and the possibilities seem endless.
While I like a lot about it, it does need an update for the aforementioned reasons. I wouldn’t want to see it fundamentally changed or improved worse as sometimes happens when they improve things.
When something is exceedingly rare, turning the dial a little just won’t make much difference. It’s like any gambling, if you are fine losing, go for it.
Wow, what an improvement. I took my human male ranger out today, got him a tiger and bristleback and he didn’t annoy me once. Looks like it’s back to playing human males.
Complexity in currencies is a make-play solution to incentivize play (and make it seem diverse) and normalize economies. The problem with it is that it will rightly be experienced as work. Do we play games or do we work games?
Does this mean I can dust off my human males as they will no longer feel their urge to kill rising? I’m going to go test it out…