Guild Wars 2

Ghotistyx.6942:

Because some people seem to have the wrong idea and I don’t want to dig back through a million posts to correct everything, I’ll just mention this:

TRAPS ARE NOT VISIBLE TO ENEMIES
They also don’t need to be ground targeted, but that’s a different discussion.

I’ll come back if anything rustles my jimmies as hard as people just plain ignoring anything factual about traps, DH, or guardian as a whole. I thought some of this misinformation might just be a small one time thing, but reading it 4 days in a row?

That’s wonderful news; thanks, Ghotistyx. I’ve edited my previous post to reflect this knowledge.

A Note on Heavy Light and Deflecting Shot:

Longbow in general has a lot of potential, but as it stands right now, it really could use some more interest — both mechanically and aesthetically. Also, as many others have noted, auto-KB on a time-based cooldown becomes unpredictable and somewhat irritating, to both the player and his enemies. Heavy Light’s effects would be much better if they remained tied to the LB skills: Stability for hitting with True Shot; Knockback added to Deflecting Shot.

Further, regarding Deflecting Shot: I would really love to see this become a reflect, and for it to have a somewhat more interesting mechanic. There are two great options I’ve seen so far:

1. Slow the projectile down (you may have already done this enough, and we just haven’t seen it yet), and cause it to expand in width (both the block and attack hit box should share this expansion) as it travels away from the player. This would allow it to remain a “skill shot,” but would add an extra interesting mechanic (and give a place for some much-needed aesthetic/graphical FX love), which would be especially interesting with the ability to reflect and when traited to cause KB.

2. Or, allow the projectile to maintain a fairly swift pace, but cause it to leave behind a trail of light (like the Mordrem Snipers already do) for a short time which also reflects projectiles. This would help make up for a lack of utility in general on the DH, and it would fit the original idea of Deflecting Shot, which was that it could sometimes be used in other directions than directly towards the enemy in order to intercept projectiles and defend allies. In this case, when traited to apply Knockback, the light trail left behind would also cause Knockback, functioning for its couple seconds of existence like the Line of Warding, from the staff. This would be an extremely interesting and fun mechanic, and I think it would make Longbow in general much more interesting, useful and fun to play, without breaking it in terms of power.

…Also, on the symbol — can we please have the burning back?

…Also, @Karl and the rest, I know this might sound a little silly, and I can only assume it would probably end up being broken in some way (especially in PvP), but since Dragonhunters are supposed to be hunting, you know, Dragons — which are enormous — has anyone considered making the traps a little more…. Dragon-sized? I mean, like, they’re really pretty tiny; considering what they’re supposed to be for, and how difficult it is to keep things in them, could we maybe consider — both for practical and lore-related reasons — enlarging them somewhat?

Blood Red Arachnid is right on a number of points. The first and largest issue with the traps, right at the start, is that they simply take far, far too long from button click to damage dealing. Cast time should probably be something like halved, as should arming time, and, more importantly, since they already have both a cast time and an arming time, once an enemy steps on them, that activation/damage had better be flipping instant. The way it works now, even if you manage to somehow suffer through the cast and arming times, or even if you manage to pre-set them in a useful area, an enemy can still simply run through them almost before the damage/effect even begins. What sort of trap ever works that way? If anyone steps on my Ranger’s traps (which cast/activate somewhat more swiftly, layer tons of conditions, offer control options that actually keep enemies in them, and deal far, far more damage), they begin suffering immediately, or very nearly — and because those traps deal damage through longer-duration conditions, leaving them does not immediately end their threat.

So: DH Traps can still be great — or at least workable. We first need reliable access to something that keeps enemies in them — like by making Zealot’s Aggression (in it’s updated, “Justice’s passive also applies cripple” version) the GM Minor trait, and maybe causing “Procession of Blades” to also have a pull, or “Test of Faith” to function like “Ring of Warding” on the Hammer. Second, we need to be able to actually lay them down (even, gasp, sometimes in the midst of combat, or at least near it) relatively quickly and have them arm in a more reasonable time frame; after all, how long does light take to be ready? It’s not like DH’s use mechanical traps. And finally, maybe even much more important than the cast/arming times, once they’re set and armed, if an enemy steps on them, they should activate immediately, instantaneously, without requiring yet a third waiting/casting/activating/whatever delay. A trap that delays its effect when an enemy steps on it is a ridiculous and useless trap, indeed. I know there’s a concern about counterplay, but honestly, traps are pretty easy to counter in countless ways just because of the fact that they’re traps. And ours are already tiny and easy to dodge-roll out of.

*[Edited to remove the bit about trap visibility to enemies: Traps cannot be seen by enemies. Thank you to Ghotistyx for correcting that error.]

Well, I appreciate the damage buffs we’ve received, although traps still feel fairly weak, particularly considering that we will be losing several thousand (if traited for condi damage) damage from the bleeds — not that I don’t want daze on trap activation, which will be great, just that I would like to see them do a little more damage and have bleeds brought back in a different way. Also, @Karl, I appreciate the work you guys have been doing reworking traits and squashing bugs — we’ve still got a ways to go, but this class has a lot of interesting potential. Here are my thoughts on continued improvements:

Traits
The Dragonhunter is supposed to be a Hunter class, who specializes in ranged damage and pre-emptive set-up, weakening/hunting down large, powerful prey, and is rewarded for intelligent, strategic play with the ability to deal massive damage in a small area. His sustain mainly comes from not getting hit. For this strategy to work, two huge things are necessary, regardless of weapon set: Increased self-mobility and the ability to reliably destroy the enemy’s ability to move/fight back. We have been moving somewhat towards this with the recent trait updates (despite them not being in this BWE), but the trait line as a whole (and as a result, the specialization) would be much improved if it looked like this:

Minor Traits

Reasoning
Dragonhunters rely even more on their virtues for active defense, and the spec. as a whole is supposed to encourage and reward their active use — without a recharge reduction, however, the cooldowns are so prohibitively long as to make that idea ridiculous. I realize that the Virtues spec. line also includes a 15% CD reduction for them, but: 1) It is absurd to suggest that DH’s must also bring the Virtues line just to be able to actively use their new class mechanic, and 2) Even a 35% CD reduction is highly unlikely to make the virtues overpowered, particularly compared to other classes’ mechanics (and Thieves can already double-CD-trait “Steal” in a similar manner, so it has a precedent). Defender’s Dogma is not only weak and silly, but it entirely fails to fit the theme of a hunter spec. that does not, in its own mechanics, skills, or style, have much frequent access to blocks. This is where we need some kind of mobility trait — either the one mentioned, or a flat 25% movement-speed increase, or swiftness when we apply cripple, or something. Mobility — it’s a core mechanic and requirement for this spec. Finally, Zealot’s Aggression, as a trait that deals with another of the core unique mechanics of the DH spec. (and does so in a non-weapon/playstyle-specific manner) is FAR better suited to the GM Minor slot than Pure of Sight, and it really would help the class immensely to have it moved there.

Major Traits
Traps

Virtues

Longbow

Reasoning

In general, this set-up is more organized, provides greater synergy within the spec and across other spec lines and more powerful options, and makes choices more meaningful. It also gives trappers (or others) at least a chance at dealing with stability/resistance/protection/etc., offers an option for condition players who were excited to hear about bleeding and sad to see it go, and it does so in a manner that fits with the minor traits, matches the DH theme, and is not in any manner weapon or utility-dependent but still makes good use of the damaging traps. Further, it offers some better reward for those who go heavily into traps, by giving them added mobility/condition cleanse and further spike ability once a trap actually hits. The modification to BGH ensures that this GM Trait can be utilized to its fullest as a powerful option for either Power or Condition based builds without penalizing the DH (as it otherwise would) by removing their most reliable cripple access every time they try to make use of it. Dulled Senses really will remain silly and far too niche unless and until it affects all CC; there seems to be no reason for it not to, as Guardians do not really have much access to that anyway, in general, and other classes are capable of far more powerful things. Also, the merging of Bulwark with the condition removal on block from Hunter’s Fortification seems fitting and appropriate, and it both makes the trait actually useful and frees a GM slot for a better GM trait — as above. Pure of Sight, as others have pointed out, is an absurd option for a minor trait, and it makes sense for its damage to be rolled into Heavy Light. Also, as others have repeatedly mentioned, while Stability on True Shot is actually pretty cool, Stability on a KB (and a somewhat unpredictable one, at that) is rather silly. The changes above reflect that. They also reflect a desire for more synergy, in general; If the KB on Heavy Light were also allowed the affect: Staff AA and Orb, Scepter AA, Ray of Judgement, (Hammer Immob?), and LB1, 2, and 3, it would be a truly powerful and interesting mechanic, which would open up some other interesting playstyles. It may, however, end up being too powerful in that case, and it also may simply encourage the continued use of scepter/focus. Either way, Stability should revert to being gained on True Shot use, and Purity of Sight’s damage bonus would fit much better here, rather than in a minor.

As for Virtues

Spear of Justice: Is really kind of weak right now. Could we think about upping the burning time it applies, or making it pulse damage, as well? Or… something? Maybe a pull or a KD when thrown? Maybe a flip-skill to allow a pull which ends the tether? (This would actually be great.) Particularly when the new Zealot’s Aggression hits, it will basically never be worth activating, and it also currently does very little for power-based builds, as well as adding nothing to the player’s ability to control his opponent’s movement, which seems silly, given the Power- and control-oriented focus of the Traps and Longbow.

Wings of Resolve: Why don’t we just make this a stun-break and let it evade for the duration of the movement? Then give it 900 range, lower the heal value accordingly (if necessary), and see how it shakes out? DH’s need access to a stun break, and they need their activated virtue effects to be reliable and powerful, or else they’ll just continue to feel like a nerf to their regular virtues. If WoR broke stun, evaded, and had a little more range (especially coupled with the above minor trait, which gives swiftness on virtue activation), it would become a useful and powerful tool.

Shield of Courage: Besides obviously needing to block all attacks (including melee) in its area, I feel like this should either 1) Function as a ward, as suggested by someone above, or 2) Cause Knock-back to blocked melee attackers, with an appropriate ICD per attacker. Or/And, it would be interesting if it actually delivered a small attack when it blocked, so that it would have the possibility of proccing Justice as it defended you. As it stands right now, it just does not give enough reward for its use, especially considering that it only shields part of the player.

…More to come later. What does everyone think so far?

Honestly, I don’t remember who, specifically, it was; it just seems to have been an idea batted around by a few various posters that the means of “bringing other skills up to the same level” (as meditations/Monk’s Focus) was basically to have them all heal and remove conditions to the same degree — which just seems ridiculous and counter-productive. It wasn’t meant as an insulting or personal post towards anyone; only as a general contribution to the discussion.

Re: The ongoing MF/Meditations/Survivability Discussion:

Really, I think the first step to take would be to look at the Virtue cooldowns, and the active effect of Justice. Resolve and especially Courage have rather prohibitively long cooldowns, especially when compared to other classes’ various abilities and unique mechanics. This is actually kind of a theme, it seems, throughout the majority of the Guardian’s skills, with overly-long recharge rates. So I would love to see some CD reduction here. Justice needs its active looked at because it hasn’t been updated since the condition rework, and since the active still only applies one stack of burning (albeit for a couple seconds longer), it’s almost never worth using compared to having the passive available.

As regards the various ideas to put healing/condi removal/etc. on all other trait lines/skill types, so that all of them function basically just like mediations, that really seems a silly, redundant, and boring way to fix everything. If all of the skills and traits do the same thing, we won’t have more builds, we’ll just have different names for the same build. Signets, Spirit Weapons, etc., do need their own survivability/utility mechanics in order to be useful, but they don’t all need the same survivability/utility mechanics. Honestly, Light Aura on signet use is not necessarily a bad idea, since you could always take some toughness on your armor, take Virtues and some other traits, and run a semi-tanky retaliation/control build, or something. Retaliation and control (one signet has immob and another has knockdown) is a means of utility/survival, if used right — the only problem with it right now is that there isn’t a decent low-cooldown heal to help you stay alive. But then, there may be ways around that. The numbers might need to be tuned (CD, cast time, damage, duration of the traited Light Aura, etc.), and certainly there could be some more interesting traits added/modified, like regenerating health while under the effects of retaliation, or faster virtue recharge while under retaliation, or increased retal. damage, or heal when you gain/lose Light Aura, or whatever, but we really don’t need signet, SW, and shout traits to be copies of MF — that would just be boring.

Anyway, the point is, not everything needs to heal/cleanse for the same amount, in the same amount of time, in the same way. Everything does need to be useful and have some synergy or a viable play-style that it supports. Spirit Weapons, for instance, could get a start by having reduced cooldowns and remaining alive until killed, like Necro Minions (not really the most ideal, unique fix, but at least it would make them more usable). Their command skills already have utility. Sure, they’ll never do for you in a glass cannon melee build what Meditations will, but if their AI were a little better and they didn’t unsummon themselves and go on prohibitively long cooldowns right when you need them, they’d be great for ranged builds or for tankier melee burning builds.

Just a couple thoughts. Keep asking for everything to be made viable, powerful, useful, etc. — but just remember, please, that everything doesn’t need to be, isn’t supposed to be, and absolutely should not be all the same.

@Brutaly and xinkspillx: Actually, I rescind my initial knee-jerk reaction of disagreement; you guys are entirely right. Moving a significant portion of the healing from Monk’s Focus into the baseline Virtue of Resolve (and/or shortening our heal cooldowns, raising their self-heal factor, etc.) would leave Meditation builds still entirely viable and powerful, while opening up a much greater number of alternatives and making the Guardian’s virtues supply more of the sustain and self-help that they were originally intended to. +In fact, I really feel like Resolve and Courage need somewhat of a baseline cooldown reduction, anyway, because their recharges (especially Courage) are ridiculously long — which is another part of what makes running Meditations and Renewed Focus for an elite so necessary: Without that ability to recharge the virtues, their activated abilities are far too weak and their cooldowns far too long for them to function as intended. Even Justice’s active, which can be traited for further effects, is almost never worth it, at least since the update which allows burns to stack.

Further, as an issue relevant to the Dragonhunter, I feel like one of the things which would really give the class some power and interest, as well as bring out the usefulness of its unique take on virtues, would be to allow each specific Virtue-related trait (Soaring Devastation for WoR, and Bulwark for SoC) to offer a 20% cooldown reduction for that particular virtue, and then to have Big Game Hunter allow the player to retain Justice’s passive after activating it. This would make perfect sense for a class which is supposed to both encourage the use of the new virtues and get most of its survival, utility, and sustain, etc. from their actives — But as long as Monk’s Focus retains its current power, it seems unlikely that this will happen, because the concern will always be: “But what if they run full Virtue DH along with Meditations and Monk’s Focus?” — even though that line of reasoning results in leaving any non-meditation/MF Dragonhunters severely under-powered.

Tl/dr: Buff Virtue of Resolve’s baseline passive and active effects. Lower the base cooldown of Resolve (at least slightly) and Courage (seriously? Almost a minute and a half for a single Aegis? This makes SoC on the DH laughable as a reliable mechanic, especially when compared to other classes’ abilities). Nerf the heal on Monk’s Focus accordingly. If lower-CD/higher-powered virtues’ active effects for allies are too powerful, then simply require a trait to make them affect allies.

xinkspillx.3914:

RebornbyFire.7913:

1. And finally, a Grandmaster trait which: Causes each trap to spawn a symbol on activation.

While I don’t agree that traps are almost powerful, I think your ideas are heading in the right direction for the most part. I cannot, however, agree that Traps should spawn symbols, be counted as symbols, or anything of that sort as it would give far too much of a reason to focus entirely on Symbol based builds (especially in comparison to the other DH traits).

Previously in this forum and in another I suggested instead that we should see a trait that concerns Wards. For example, making activated Traps count as Wards and Wards provide a slight amount of healing, or Retaliation or some other sustain or supportive effect. I’m not suggesting every trap forms a barrier, however.

Rather than just piling more onto the heap of symbol traits, this would instead create synergy with Symbols in an indirect method by affecting Longbow, Staff and Hammer, as each of these weapons has both a Ward and a Symbol.

Dragon’s Maw already functions similarly to a Ward with its barrier so it wouldn’t be a great leap to see this sort of functionality. If anything, this would reinforce the idea of the Dragonhunter being able to manipulate the field of battle and give us more incentive to lure enemies into our traps.

I see where you’re coming from on the “symbol-only builds” thing, but I still think that: 1) Symbols are a cool Guardian-specific mechanic that is underutilized in the class as a whole, and 2) It would be a totally awesome GM trait which would create fun, synergy, utility, and so on. Further, although it would theoretically be possible to fully trait symbols and have an amazing amount of stuff happening with your traps (which I still think would be great and, given the cast/recharge time, innate complications of using, and stationary nature of the traps and symbols, not likely to be actually overpowered when compared across classes), that would mean giving up on a lot of other things that would normally help you stay alive and do other things, so it would come at a cost — part of which would be mobility in combat.

However, your idea concerning wards fits in much the same way, and if it’s a cool trait that gives added synergy, functionality, power, and unique interest to the traps, I’m all for it. The issue here is, while symbols apply a variety of boons, are light fields, deal pulsing damage, and can be traited for various other defensive or offensive benefits, wards so far only do one thing: place walls that prevent enemies from moving past them. Since it seems pretty unlikely that we will be allowed to trait all our traps to have KB-inducing walls around then (although I still think Test of Faith should have that for base functionality), as you’ve also mentioned, in what manner do you recommend we introduce the idea or mechanic of “warding” to the traps? It sounds like it could be a cool idea (and serve to bring out an under-used skill type) — I’d love to read some more about it.

Arnath.2319:

Traps in there current form are garbage.
There is no +healing +damage that will fix them.
they need a complete total redesign from the ground up.

I disagree with you here, in that I think the traps are actually not very far from being powerful and useful tools — plus, some of them are pretty cool, and the idea of a trapper is a fun one. However, I entirely agree that traps still need some important work:

Purity really only needs either: an immobilize, a condition cleanse, to apply aegis on cast (and/or activation), or to be a stun break. Any one of these things (coupled with the right recharge/healing/etc. numbers) would allow it to offer something unique to the Guardian, when compared to its other heals. (It can already be traited to daze, which is great, but a healing skill as difficult to use effectively as this one is should definitely not require traiting in order to do something uniquely useful). It should probably also grant regeneration, or else have a lower cooldown.

Test of Faith really ought to be a fire field (which pulses burn) and either: Acts like the hammer’s “Ring of Warding,” damaging and crippling anyone who gets bounced off of it, Immobilizes on activation, or at very, minimal least pulls enemies to the center of it at least once on activation. Given the ridiculous things that other classes are capable of, and the general difficulty of using traps well (particularly on a Guardian), I have a difficult time imagining that any of these options would be too powerful — and the “Ring of Warding” idea would be by far the best and most interesting.

Fragments of Faith could be interesting, if only it did enough to justify it’s extra-complicated mechanics in place of the obviously more convenient “Retreat!” — If the fragments also cleansed a condition (and preferably granted swiftness, as well), along with giving Aegis, it would fix that issue. It also wouldn’t hurt for it to be a light field, or if it pulsed multiple hits, instead of being one larger one, to better take advantage of Justice’s passive, or if it did something to actually disable or snare the opponent.

Whirling Wrath mostly just needs to be made a “whirl finisher” and have its numbers tuned and it’ll be fine for what it is: a trap that hits a lot of times and deals a ton of damage in an aoe.

Light’s Judgement mostly needs either: Longer duration on Vulnerability, or Higher stacks of vulnerability, or simply more damage, and it will also be what it’s obviously intended to be: another multi-hit high damage trap that pierces armor, reveals stealthed enemies, and also is by far the most stylish and aesthetically pleasing/exciting thing about the Dragonhunter so far.

Dragon’s Maw looks cool but feels weak. I’m pretty sure the first thing would be to reduce its cooldown to match the other traps, so that at least it justifies itself by its relatively short CD and it’s synergy with the rest of the traps. Along with that (or even, if it’s too powerful, in place of that), an easy solution would be to make it pulse its damage, instead of deal it all at once, and then to have it either: also be a pulsing fire field (which burns, obviously), or Stun, instead of slow, or Pulse 1/4 sec. daze every second, to take advantage of the Slow, or cause knockdown when activated. With that (and some numbers tuning), it should be a pretty useful elite.

Finally, we need Zealot’s Aggression to be moved into the GM Minor Trait slot (and preferably Dulled Senses into the Master Minor slot), and then there are a couple other traits that would really make trapper builds come alive with usefulness and a unique DH flavor:

1. We need a trait that: Inflicts bleeding when you strike a crippled opponent.
2. Another that: Grants swiftness and removes movement-impeding conditions when you place a trap.
3. And finally, a Grandmaster trait which: Causes each trap to spawn a symbol on activation.

This would make Dragonhunters and their traps a powerful force and a unique, interesting, and engaging way to play, and I have a pretty difficult time imagining that any of these improvements could possibly be overpowered (once numbers are all properly balanced), all things considered.

Arken.3725:

I like the merge of Hunter’s fort with Bulwark. What about making it a GM but also changing the 10% damage reduction to when you have a condition on you. The other way around never made much sense to me.

It still will be a boring and weak GM trait, and it won’t really fit the class. Plus, forcing us to waste a GM trait slot just to have a tiny bit of condition cleanse is a terrible idea (again, compare that, for instance, to the Daredevil or Warrior options, which are far more powerful and, at least in the Thief’s case, lower tier). As a means of buffing the SoC active (which is unique to the Dragonhunter) and a Master tier condition cleanse, it’s great. As a Grandmaster, it’s terrible — in part because we should be using that third GM slot for a powerful trap-related trait — since traps, rather than defense and damage reduction, are actually one of the things the DH spec is supposed to focus on.

Remember, that DH is supposed to be a (ranged) damage and area control spec, focused on crippling and hunting down large, powerful opponents — having too large or powerful a portion of the trait line dedicated to things like outright damage reduction is unnecessary and runs entirely counter to the whole purpose of the Dragonhunter. Guardians already have primarily defensive trait lines, and while future elite specs may add to that, the DH should definitely not. It’s not that there shouldn’t be any self-preservation or utility here (because of course there should be), it’s just that if we try to devote too much or too important of a space to it (or if we do it in the wrong way, like with flat damage reductions), then we will continue to have the same problem the DH traits have had so far, which is a complete lack of focus and clarity.

We need to focus on the Dragonhunter’s purpose and strengths, and find ways to make the traits center around that, rather than trying to make it go in all of the different vanilla Guardian directions at once.

Back on-topic — A couple serious current DH problems:

• Not to sound like a cross-profession complainer (because I do realize that different classes function — and therefore balance — differently), but for goodness’ sakes, the Daredevil has a Master tier trait that cleanses a condition every time he evades an attack — and easy access to practically unlimited evades!!! Why in the world do we have to use a Grandmaster tier trait to remove a condition only when we block an attack, which is far less frequently and easily available, even to a Guardian, than evade is to basically anybody, particularly a Daredevil Thief??

• Am I the only one who has noticed that the new “place a Fragments of Faith trap when you are controlled” trait will do more to mock you than help you? If you’ve been controlled, then in almost all situations you can’t move. And since FoF is still not a stunbreak, all that this trait will accomplish is to fling a whole bunch of glittering shards of aegis around you where you cannot get them, because you’re busy being controlled and can’t move.

Therefore…

1. Hunter’s Fortification, as I’ve said already, should most certainly be merged with Bulwark in the Master tier. And, honestly, instead of Bulwark granting increased size and longer duration, it really would be much nicer if it granted 20% recharge reduction to Shield of Courage. Would anyone else favor more frequent use of SoC over longer duration? I know I certainly would.
2. Wings of Resolve really would make an excellent stun-break for us, and it would fit the animation, the idea for the skill, and the theme of the DH and the role WoR plays there really well. Then, either Fragments of Faith needs to be a stunbreak (and the fragments should definitely each cleanse a condition on pick-up), or else (if WoR’s base functionality is changed to being a stun-break) the trait should become: “When you are controlled, your Wings of Resolve virtue is recharged.”
3. Alternatively, since Guardians already have access to a “this useful defensive thing happens when you are controlled” trait in a different line, I would really much rather see something different and unique and more fitting for the DH’s theme in the DH spec line. Like, for instance, “Whenever you strike a crippled foe, you inflict bleeding.” Or, possibly, “Placing a trap grants you swiftness and removes movement-impeding conditions.”

Thoughts? Agree/Disagree?

So, I appreciate the ongoing Meditation/other trait lines conversation going on here, and it’s one that’s probably worth having, but shouldn’t somebody make a separate topic about that? I realize that it does relate in general terms to the DH spec, as well, but for the most part it’s almost entirely off-topic here, and for a developer (or player) scrolling through here for actual DH changes feedback, it must be sort of distracting and somewhat irrelevant. Could we all try to stay on-topic, in terms of hoped-for DH changes? I, at least, am highly excited about the class and its potential, but there are still several things that I would love to see happen, in order for it to actually realize that potential.

Arken.3725:

Solid suggestions Reborn. I can get behind the WoR change but why not just make the shield on courage closer to the Guardian so it actually blocks all attacks in front of them?

Actually, what I intended by my statement was that SoC should be updated (as Karl suggested they were planning to do) so that it blocks all attacks (both melee and ranged) in the area it covers, which would fix that problem (i.e., it will block melee attacks from the front, but not the sides or back). So we’re in agreement on that. But then, I think it should also include a baseline knockback, to make it really feel like something new is happening. Either aoe on cast, or else when it blocks a melee attack with an appropriate ICD. Compared to most of the other stuff going around, that hardly seems too powerful, especially when you consider its absurdly long cooldown and the DH’s general lack of survival and self-help abilities.

Honestly, I really do like the Dragonhunter idea, and I’m pretty good with the bow and traps, in general. The traits are beginning to improve, as well, so I’m hopeful that by release time (or maybe even earlier), it will turn out to be as interesting, unique, and fun as it has the potential to be. A couple things that would fix most of the issues and help it a ton:

Zealot’s Aggression moved to the GM MINOR trait slot, and Pure of Sight merged with Heavy Light (the LB GM trait).

Defender’s Dogma (Master MINOR trait) functionality changed to: “When you activate a virtue, you gain swiftness” (for a reasonable amount of time).

Hunter’s Fortification merged into the Master tier trait, Bulwark (and losing the pointless -10% damage while not suffering a condition), so that Bulwark reads: “Shield of Courage is larger and lasts longer. Lose a condition when you successfully block an attack.”

“Traps spawn a symbol when activated” as a new Grandmaster trait.

A Master tier trait with the functionality: “You inflict bleeding whenever you strike a crippled opponent.”

Big Game Hunter also allows the player to retain Justice’s passive effect after activation.

Wings of Resolve base functionality made to be: Stun break. Evades during animation in exchange for somewhat reduced healing (and reduced immobilize on the trait) from what it currently is.

Would anyone else be in favor of…

Wings of Resolve being a stun-break (and also an evade during the animation), even if it meant weakening the heal somewhat?

Shield of Courage causing knockback either once in an aoe when activated, or else on an appropriate ICD when blocking melee attacks (which it definitely needs to do)?

It seems as though the new Virtues are really meant to be an integral part of the Dragonhunter’s playstyle and are supposed to replace, to some extent, the Guardian’s normal reliance on utility skills for survival, movement, and/or extra damage. As they currently stand, however, they’re really too weak to properly fulfill that role. These seem like quick changes that would fix that issue.

@NumenorLord, regarding Traps becoming Symbols: As a baseline functionality or a skill type change, this will probably never happen. But I agree that it would be awesome, and I think the issue could be remedied by:

Merging the condi cleanse on Hunter’s Fortification with Bulwark, so that Bulwark would now read: “Shield of Courage is larger and lasts longer. Blocking an attack removes a condition from you.” This would be an acceptable and highly useful Master level trait.

Filling that newly-emptied Grandmaster trait slot with a trait which causes Traps to spawn a symbol when activated. I would love for this to also cause virtues to recharge faster while under the effects of Retaliation, but I think that might be asking too much. Even having each trap spawn a symbol when activated could result in an enormous amount of things going on, if fully traited, but honestly, especially compared to some of the other E.Spec. abilities and the difficulty of actually keeping things in the traps the whole time, and given the focus of the Dragonhunter and his traps on providing area control, I really don’t think it would be by any means too powerful. Much more importantly, it would be extremely fun, very interesting, and would provide access to three things that DH Trappers desperately need: Uniqueness, Synergy, and Utility.

Further, this would fit the Dragonhunter theme better by allowing us a choice in Grandmaster traits between: Traps, a Virtue, and Longbow. And honestly, Hunter’s Fortification is not strong enough to merit a GM slot (especially since the damage reduction on it is basically useless), nor should we be forced to use a GM slot just in order to have a chance of clearing conditions.

I wholeheartedly agree. Pure of Sight is one of the most boring and ridiculous choices for a minor trait that we could possibly have been given. As I suggested on the “Upcoming Changes…” thread:

RebornbyFire.7913:

A Couple Quick Suggestions:

1. Make Dulled Senses and Zealot’s Aggression the new Master and GM minor traits — They fit that role far, far better than what is currently there. Then allow Dulled Senses to trigger off of any control (Daze, Launch, KB, KD, etc.), so that it actually has some synergy, including, if possible, on the KB from wards (Hammer Ring, Staff line, LB 5). Finally, add the damage bonus beyond 600 range from Pure of Sight to the LB Grandmaster trait (Heavy Light), where it belongs and fits. This, by itself, would make the class far, far more interesting, thematically consistent, enjoyable, and viable to play.
2. Following 1.), above, Defender’s Dogma could be merged with your most recently posted version of Hunter’s Fortification, in order to help it fit the DH’s more aggressive theme, or it could be its own Major trait somewhere, possibly with some other effect added (since, as a minor, it is ridiculous, but with the above suggested Minor traits, it becomes a means of guaranteeing a cripple on the next attack).
3. Introduce a new Major trait somewhere (NOT in the same tier as the new Piercing Light, where it would compete with it) that applies bleeding when you strike a crippled foe
4. Cause BGH to either make Spear of Justice cause a significant cripple on hit, or allow the player to retain Justice’s passive effect after activating it — thus allowing a player to choose, by investing in a GM trait, the ability to actively and frequently use SoJ without also immediately losing their best ordinary access to cripple.

@Karl McLain: Please, if nothing else, these few, relatively minor changes would make an entire, glorious, world of difference in playing the DH, and they would open up whole landscapes of meaningful, powerful choices and options for DH players and solve most of the main current complaints (i.e., DH would begin to feel truly themed and organized; taking Piercing Light would cause traps to cripple, thus helping them actually hit things; players could trait themselves to have wider access to bleed, including on trap hits, without being forced into it; etc.).

Also, @Kidel, I actually have preferred the name “Avenger” to “Dragonhunter” since its announcement. But I already have an “Avenger” title (as well as “Avenger of the Dispossessed,” which may be even better), and that is what actually shows to other players, so if they’ll just fix the traits/skills to do what they should and be awesome and interesting, they can call it the Ice Cream Truck Driver spec for all I care, and I’ll still happily enjoy playing it.

@Ragnar the Rock: Thanks, I appreciate the encouragement. If we want certain changes, we’ll need multiple voices. I like your idea for the expanded functionality of Piercing Light, but with the new functionality announced in the Upcoming Changes thread, it seems unlikely. As I’ve suggested on that same thread, I like the new change to Piercing Light, and now would love only to see the new Dulled Senses and Zealot’s Aggression replace the current Minor Master and GM traits (with the damage bonus from Pure of Sight being added to the LB GM, and the other either scrapped or added to the new Hunter’s Fortification) — even if the vulnerability on cripple has to be removed and/or the damage bonus has to be lowered or moved to do it. The main thing is to have the minor trait line fit the cripple/hunter theme, rather than have totally random stuff and a super boring and frequently useless damage buff. Then all that’s needed is a Master Tier Major trait (assuming Piercing Light remains Adept) which causes bleeding whenever you strike a crippled foe, and for BGH to allow Justice to retain its passive effect after being activated and we’re set to rock: General access to cripple for all Dragonhunters, broad access to bleeding if we want it, and all manner of cool things that fit the theme without being entirely forced into any of them. There are still some other changes I’d love to see, especially on traps (and I still think it would be excellent to have a trait that granted swiftness and removed movement-impeding conditions when we place a trap), but those couple of changes above are the main ones that to my mind would be extremely easy to make and would answer almost all of the serious problems I and many others have with the class.

@Arnath (OP): I agree, but actually, with the recent update posted here, the possibility for it getting back on track and becoming absolutely amazing is potentially very strong. Only a few simple changes are needed, as recommended here, and we would have: Minor traits that made sense, general access to cripple, the potential to trait bleeding in a manner more generally effective than before but which also includes the previous functionality, more general synergy with numerous other Guardian traits and skills, the ability to kite, useful and powerful traps, and the ability to choose whether we wanted to run full or partial range or melee and condi/pure damage, without any of the minor traits becoming automatically useless. (Basically, two of the revamped major traits need to replace the current master and GM minor traits, which themselves ought to be folded into the existing GM major traits.) What do you think?

@Brutaly Seriously? Nerf the Guardian’s good things so that they match its bad things? Couldn’t we just fix the bad things, instead? Traps themselves and the DH as a whole have the potential to be excellent, if only they are fixed in the right way. The changes Karl has most recently posted are a start. The suggestions I made a couple posts up, most especially making the new Dulled Senses and Zealot’s Aggression into the Minor Master and GM traits while merging Pure of Sight with Heavy Light and either merging Defender’s Dogma with the new Hunter’s Fortification, giving it its own major slot somewhere (probably in the Adept tier), or just replacing it entirely would do most of the work in giving the class guidance, theme, broad access to cripple, and so on.

What you and so many others are forgetting is that: 1.) DH is a ranged, kiting, damage-based spec that focuses on pre-emptive set-up, planning, and area control. 2.) While it does require its own unique defensive tools, it does not need and absolutely should not have as much focus on defense as other Guardian lines, in part for the very reason that so many other Guardian lines already have that focus and do it wonderfully. It’s already there in the other trait lines, and it doesn’t fit the DH theme, so, please, stop trying to make the DH play exactly like a vanilla Guardian, or do everything that the 5 core lines and core weapons can already do, because that’s part of what’s confusing the DH’s trait lines and development. 3.) If you spec into Dragonhunter, it’s going to change your playstyle, in some manner or other — otherwise there isn’t any point in bringing it, or even in making it. That means that it won’t fit every play style (how could it?), and probably you won’t be able to use your exact same combos in exactly the same way that you always have. If you could, there would be no point to the elite spec and it would bring nothing interesting, new, or helpful to the table.

That said, there are a couple other major changes I would love to see, besides those I’ve posted above, and I think many others can agree:

Test of Faith should absolutely be a stun break — otherwise, besides Traps being the only skill line that doesn’t have access to a stun break, the new trait which places it when I am controlled (not really the most interesting trait anyway, given the already existing on-being-controlled trait that Guards have access to) will do more to mock me than actually help me (a controlled player can’t actually move to pick up all those glorious, life-saving fragments lying around everywhere). Further, the shards should also clear a condition when picked up; since using FoF is so much more difficult than “Retreat”, it deserves the extra functionality.

One With the Light: “Traps Spawn a Symbol on Activation,” coupled with either: “Virtues recharge faster while under the effects of Retaliation” or “Clear a condition every time you gain retaliation” would make a ridiculously cool Grandmaster Major trait (although there currently is not room for it, and I’m not sure I’d erase anything that’s currently there in order to add it in, as much as I want it), and it would add some much-needed interest, utility, and synergy to traps and the DH.

*Also, “Placing a Trap grants Swiftness and removes movement impeding conditions” would be an extraordinarily useful and interesting trait, as it would allow traps to remain traps, but give the DH player a means of quickly repositioning him/herself after placing one.

Purity (the heal trap) really ought to grant Resistance when placed, and then clear some number of conditions when activated (at least one). This would give it a reason to be brought in place of the other Guard heals, which all have extremely powerful bonuses of their own, but none of which include either Resistance or active condi cleanse.

For the LB, honestly what it needs more than anything is a more interesting auto-attack: Preferably a three-hit-chain that, ideally, involves a unique debuff and multiple homing light projectiles or some other visually and mechanically interesting and unique mechanic on the final hit.

@Karl McLain Also, thank you so very much for continuing to work on this potentially awesome and exciting class, taking account of players’ feedback, and continuing to update the community. We all really appreciate it.

A number of interesting and excellent suggestions from the community, particularly regarding LB1 and LB3 functionality have been compiled in this thread: Constructive Dragonhunter Feedback/Ideas, if you would care to check it out. (If Dulled Senses remains similar to its current functionality, of course, the suggestion for LB1 would make more sense if the third hit did something other than Blind.)

A Couple Quick Suggestions:

1. Make Dulled Senses and Zealot’s Aggression the new Master and GM minor traits — They fit that role far, far better than what is currently there. Then allow Dulled Senses to trigger off of any control (Daze, Launch, KB, KD, etc.), so that it actually has some synergy, including, if possible, on the KB from wards (Hammer Ring, Staff line, LB 5). Finally, add the damage bonus beyond 600 range from Pure of Sight to the LB Grandmaster trait (Heavy Light), where it belongs and fits. This, by itself, would make the class far, far more interesting, thematically consistent, enjoyable, and viable to play.
2. Following 1.), above, Defender’s Dogma could be merged with your most recently posted version of Hunter’s Fortification, in order to help it fit the DH’s more aggressive theme, or it could be its own Major trait somewhere, possibly with some other effect added (since, as a minor, it is ridiculous, but with the above suggested Minor traits, it becomes a means of guaranteeing a cripple on the next attack).
3. Introduce a new Major trait somewhere (NOT in the same tier as the new Piercing Light, where it would compete with it) that applies bleeding when you strike a crippled foe
4. Cause BGH to either make Spear of Justice cause a significant cripple on hit, or allow the player to retain Justice’s passive effect after activating it — thus allowing a player to choose, by investing in a GM trait, the ability to actively and frequently use SoJ without also immediately losing their best ordinary access to cripple.

@Karl McLain: Please, if nothing else, these few, relatively minor changes would make an entire, glorious, world of difference in playing the DH, and they would open up whole landscapes of meaningful, powerful choices and options for DH players and solve most of the main current complaints (i.e., DH would begin to feel truly themed and organized; taking Piercing Light would cause traps to cripple, thus helping them actually hit things; players could trait themselves to have wider access to bleed, including on trap hits, without being forced into it; etc.).

I have edited the original two posts to include some of the ideas/conclusions from our ongoing discussions, particularly regarding the changes to Deflecting Shot, the LB GM trait, and Hunter’s Ward. Thanks very much, everyone who has engaged with this; keep it coming.

@Ghotistyx: I’m glad you like the minor trait ideas — in spite of their similarity to the Ranger’s “Opening Strike,” (and now the Berserker’s similar mechanic), I think functionally it would feel different, and it solves a great number of current DH problems all at the same time, as I mentioned in the OP. I actually like several of your ideas, as well, particularly the ones regarding Torment in place of bleeding. A couple issues, though:

• The first is that, as great as Torment would be in those places, part of the stated theme for the Dragonhunter was that they would allow Guardians access to Bleeding and Cripple; since I wanted my rework to be as centered around the original themes as possible, I was sort of forced to use Bleeding. Part of the reason for that, as well, is that as it currently stands, DH does indeed allow access to bleeding, but it’s incredibly narrow: Only one trait allows one type of utility to apply it, which means that it has no real synergy with anything else. One of my intended goals was to continue the “give Guards access to bleed/cripple” theme while broadening it into something with broader access that allowed some choices in where/how/when/in what quantity those conditions would be applied.
• This is also the reason for my addition to BGH (“Apply bleed when you apply vuln”), and my modification of Dulled Senses (“Apply Cripple when you apply Blind”): By allowing automatic application of Cripple/Bleed on entering combat and then tying further application of those conditions to other conditions other Guardian skills and traits already apply, I’ve created (hopefully in a fair way) the broader synergy with Guardians as a whole which the DH specialization currently lacks. Also, since various other DH skills (Deflecting shot, Purification, Light’s Judgement) apply blind/vuln, there is more in-class synergy and broader access to the DH’s unique conditions, as well.
• The same synergy issue is the reason for the last part of the trap GM, as well (although giving Retaliation on activation, as well, is almost certainly too much): Traps spawn symbols creates a lot of synergy already, but a dedicated trapper will likely be relying largely on his activated virtues for sustain/defense/etc. Since symbols are light fields (blast/leap gives retaliation), and one of them actually pulses retaliation, it seemed like another really cool place to tie in some synergy with other Guardian abilities and at the same time reward active and skillful play (since that last part seems to be a huge component of their intention with the expansion in general).
• You’re almost certainly right, though, about some of the traits being too heavy, especially the Trap and Longbow ones. I especially like your idea that, if Heavy Light remains, the KB range should be 600, to maintain the accompanying 10% damage increase. Although, really, I think I’m going to modify that in the OP to read, “Deflecting Shot now causes KB,” based on some of the above discussion with others, esp. Noctis.
• Part of the reason, too, that I’m asking for so much (and you’re right, some of it is almost certainly too much), is that right now there is far too little. And since the likelihood of everything I’ve suggested being implemented is probably very small, indeed, my hope is that nonetheless a developer (like Karl, for instance) will look at this and think, “Well, probably some of that is going to be OP, but the ideas are really good — maybe we can do something similar, if a little scaled down.”
• I still think that traps spawning symbols would be one of the coolest GM traits (even if that was all it did), and one of the best ways to make traps more interesting and give them a really useful place in a large variety of builds, since it automatically includes so much of everything: Synergy, damage, support, etc. On the other hand, there’s a good chance you may be right about it just encouraging even more people to Hammer camp and be entirely broken. But then again, that playstyle is impossible in PvP already, and from the HoT content we’ve seen so far, it looks like it will be there, too, since everything is so much more active.

Either way, I really appreciate you taking the time for some thoughtful feedback. That sort of thing is healthy, I think, and useful to ANet, since it gives them a better idea of what we think would be fun/useful. If you’ve made it this far, did you have any thoughts regarding Noctis’ and my changes (a few posts up) regarding Deflecting Shot (in short, that it should progressively slow down — somewhat drastically — past a few hundred range, and expand horizontally as it slows)?

@Lemondish and Ghotistyx: I totally agree with your summary of the DH’s purpose as a spec, and I’m actually excited to have that sort of play style opened up to me, especially on my Guardian. It’s actually one of the only two (along with the Reaper) Elite Specs so far to actually deliver on the promise of providing a totally different way to play the class (the others are definitely awesome, just not terribly different from the normal play styles of those classes). In spite of the good things about DH and the potential for a unique playstyle, you have to admit that the traits are mostly boring and/or counterproductive (to the DH’s stated purposes), the traps could use a little work, and it is more than a little silly that on a class focused on hunting large, powerful prey, the AA cripple is impossible to apply when there is only a single target (which happens frequently, both in PvE and PvP). If nothing else, the DH spec should certainly open up a few more options for cripple and bleeding than it currently does, preferably in a way that synergizes with other things Guardians can do, and it could use some traits that are more impactful in a mechanical way (not just in a “bigger damage numbers” way).

Therefore, I purposely tried to come up with some comprehensive suggestions for reworking things that would retain the actual purpose and unique nature of the DH, while at the same time strengthening its strengths, creating more synergy, and opening up a number of interesting options to DH players. I purposely avoided the generally popular “Make traps ranged,” “get rid of traps,” “give me permanent move speed increase,” etc. complaints that ignore the actual point of DH. I’m actually very curious: What did you think of my ideas (particularly the new traits, esp. minor and the “traps spawn symbols/faster virtue recharge while under retaliation” GM) as they relate to the purpose of the DH, which you’ve picked up on pretty well? If there’s something you disagree with, what would you change and how?

@Misguided and Noctis: LB5 into a “trap” (sounds more like the Necro’s staff “marks,” really) could be pretty neat, and would fit the theme. It would also allow/encourage a new and more unique/interesting animation for it. Could also create some interesting cross-synergy with the traits if it actually counted technically as a trap.

@Noctis I think I really like that idea. To make it even more interesting, and also compensate for the drop in movement speed, what if it also expanded in width as it slowed down? That way, in close quarters, it would be a quick, targeted knockback/blind, with the chance to block a projectile, and at longer distances it would be a slower-moving, expanding shield with the ability to KB anyone too lazy to strafe far enough out of the way.

@Dirame I wholeheartedly agree with everything you said here (and when you’ve said it elsewhere); that’s why I went to all the trouble of thinking up and writing out and sharing the whole trait rework and skill modifications in the original two posts. So the question here is, what do you and others think of those ideas, both individually and as a collective whole. Because if we get enough positive votes and/or enough creative and constructive feedback in one place, the developers just might notice and implement some of it, or at least something similar. I felt that my rework addressed and fixed all of the issues you’ve mentioned and more; what do you think?

@Noctis Hah, thanks for the vote of confidence on the LB auto-attack; I’m really happy with the idea, too. Both in playstyle and aesthetics, it would feel much different and much more fitting for the Guardian and interesting in general. I would really love for that, if nothing else (or something very similar) to make it into the game. And Karl did actually post that LB1’s functionality was being looked at, so maybe he (or Irenio, or someone else) will come check this out and likewise love it.

As for KB being automatic from the LB GM trait… That’s kind of how I feel (I mentioned it somewhere, I think in the rationale section), but I was trying to keep all of the ideas I could from the current/original DH trait setup, and that’s how it is in there. Also, if KB is only put on Deflecting Shot, then there will be the problem of it needing to move quickly to be a useful KB, but needing to move slowly to be a better shield; I’m not entirely sure how best to deal with that issue. Thoughts?

Honestly guys, the point of this post is to take what they’ve stated as the actual themes/purpose of the Dragonhunter, its skills, and its trait lines and offer some serious and well-thought-out suggestions for improvement in a positive manner that do not include: Obviously overpowered suggestions, insults to the developers, or pointless complaints. Try to stay positive; the class has the potential to be awesome, even if it will never be everyone’s favorite (but no class or spec can be that).

What I do really appreciate are those of you who have responded with actual feedback on the trait/skill ideas I’ve suggested. If anyone disagrees with something, by all means, offer a suggestion for improvement/modification/etc. Try to keep in mind the DH’s guiding themes, though, rather than whatever your currently preferred Guardian playstyle is.

Also, if you like the ideas, by all means, add your voice in favor of one or some or all of them. ANet does, after all, read the forums, and who knows? If enough of us like an idea, they just might like it, too.

(Also, @KoTCR, thanks for the compliment. I appreciate it.)

And now…
SKILL MODIFICATIONS

Longbow
The more I think about this weapon and its skillset, the more I actually like the general idea of it. I really have only one or two changes that I think are extremely important. Otherwise, so long as the glitches are ironed out, the numbers tuned, and the traits improved, it could be a really great weapon. Here are my ideas for improvement:

Puncture Shot (LB 1): The problem with this, mechanically, is that it runs totally counter to the actual stated purpose of the DH, which is to hunt down and kill single, powerful enemies (and also that it’s somewhat awkward to use). In a situation with a single enemy, you waste the bouncing effect and cannot get the cripple, which is what you actually need — thereby offering DH a cripple on auto-attack but making it actually impossible to use on-demand in certain situations (esp. PvP). Also, it feels like everybody else’s bow attacks. Instead, LB1 should be a 3-hit chain, with the third hit applying a very brief blind in a small aoe (which should then be able to be traited to “cripple foes you blind,” offering obvious synergy with other Guard skills). Now, that would be enough, I suppose, but if the developers are willing to put the effort into it, what I would really like to see would be this:
LB1: 3-hit chain. The first two hits deal single-target damage and apply one stack of Light’s Burden to target and nearby foes (3 target max, small aoe). Each stack of Light’s Burden slows the effected target’s movement (and attack?) speed by 10%. The third hit in the chain fires three homing light projectiles which track only to enemies effected by Light’s Burden. When they hit, these projectiles deal damage and destroy all stacks of Light’s Burden, causing further damage and inflicting a very brief blind. Around half or so of the damage from the third hit should come from the exploding stacks; this way, if there is only one target, all three projectiles will track to it alone for extra damage, but since there will still only be two stacks of Light’s Burden,
the damage will not be tripled. This would fulfill all the important things for DH Longbow 1 all at the same time: Better damage/improved effectiveness against single targets, synergy with traps, the crippling/hunter theme, and other Guardian traits, skills, and themes, the ability to provide some aoe control and damage, reliable effects that work when there is only one enemy.

Deflecting Shot (LB 3): Like others, I really don’t think what this skill needs is more damage: True Shot already supplies that, in an excellent manner, as it should. What Deflecting Shot needs is a more useful and interesting mechanic. To begin, it really ought to reflect, rather than merely destroy, and it would be especially ideal either way if it counted mechanically as a “block” (for the sake of synergy — this is actually a problem with a number of Guard skills which block things but don’t count as a “block”). As Noctis and others have suggested, what would be truly ideal would be for the projectile fired to be larger than it currently is and past, say, 300 range (or so) it would begin to drastically (and progressively) slow down in movement speed while expanding in width as it continues to move away. The best alternative to this, that I’ve seen so far, is the suggestion made by others that _Deflecting Shot would retain a similar movement speed and size to what it has now, but would leave a light trail behind for a short time which would also reflect projectiles. In this second case, when traited with the LB GM, this line could also cause KB, providing a number of interesting new ways to use the skill.

Hunter’s Ward: Really, I like this skill as it is. It would be even better coupled with the trait system I’ve suggested above, which allows a couple of other options for brief access to quickness, allowing it to be fired off fast enough to actually keep enemies in the traps. I do think 60 seconds is perhaps a little long on the recharge, but then, it is a rather powerful ability. Nevertheless, it has been suggested below that it would be a more interesting ability (and more fitting to the DH theme) if it functioned a little more like a trap, being able to be placed beforehand and then either triggered when enemies step on it, or even manually activated via a chain skill for that purpose. In this case, it would apply it’s fence on activation, pulsing cripple/damage afterward. This is an interesting and unique thought, and I could be on board with it — especially if it actually counted as a “Trap” skill type, allowing interesting cross-synergy with traits.

Traps
For the most part, these are actually kind of cool, and Light’s Judgement is aesthetically by far the coolest thing about the specialization (Oh, GW1 RoJ, how I missed you!). There are really only a few very minor tweaks that I would like to see made, which would make an enormous difference in the usefulness and viability of DH traps:

Purification: This should certainly cleanse all conditions from the player on the initial placement (especially given the other Guardian heals it has to compete with, which are all currently considerably more powerful in various ways). Probably, it should also cleanse them in an area around the player when it is activated — or, more interestingly, provide Light Aura and/or resistance to the player and all nearby allies when the trap is triggered. Or, it could apply resistance when placed and cleanse all conditions when activated. Also, the damage it deals is obviously insignificant, because it is so small. Possibly it could knockdown, immobilize, or do something else somewhat offensive/control related, to give the player a reason to bring it in place of other, much easier-to-use heals, and to better reward proper/diverse use of it?

Fragments of Faith: Here I add my voice to the others that say, this should be a stunbreak when placed. Also, since actually picking up the fragments is somewhat challenging in the middle of a difficult fight (and certainly harder than simply casting “Retreat!”), it would really make the use of a utility slot and the effort of grabbing the fragments much more rewarding (and fit the class) if they cleansed a condition on pick-up, as well as granting aegis.

Test of Faith: This trap sounds cool in theory, but in practice ends up being silly: It only cripples enemies once they’ve already escaped your traps, is easily avoidable with a simple, single dodge-roll (which is what the first reaction to being caught in traps is, anyway), and on its own does not even do anything to harm an enemy caught in it. I would love to see it changed to: create a fire field which pulses burn (low duration) on enemies caught in it and have the ring of swords function like Ring of Warding. Damage (in smaller amounts) and cripple could be applied to enemies who try to exit. If warding is too much, it should at least cripple on activation, be a fire field (“fires of trial” fit the “Test of Faith” theme, after all), and deal extra damage when enemies cross the threshold (or even immobilize them as they cross). This would make it actually fulfill its purpose of keeping people in your other traps, while also (with the fire field) giving it some other utility and synergy.

Procession of Blades: Should really be a whirl finisher, kitten many others have suggested. In combination with my other suggestions, this would also allow more condition damage, when placed over “Test of Faith,” or more condition cleansing, when used with the GM traps trait (“Traps spawn symbols”).

Dragon’s Maw: Is an elite and should stun. You just got eaten by a giant light-dragon; seriously, you would be a little stunned. Also, it should effect multiple targets with its status effects, if it doesn’t currently. Only offering a few brief seconds of slow (a condition which chronomancers can actually easily maintain on a target and also take advantage of with interrupts) is just far, far too weak for an elite skill. It definitely needs something: Stun, or a fire field, or pulsing 1/4 second dazes every second or two (to take advantage of the Slow), etc. On the other hand, it does also (theoretically, unless they have a teleport or Stability or Defiant…) hold enemies in place for 6 seconds. If it’s supposed to function mainly as a snare for the other traps, then it might be worthwhile to simply raise the damage (possibly make it pulse and/or include burning) and lower the cooldown to match that of the other traps. That way, it would be a “weak” elite, but it would be usable every time that you set up your other traps, making it mesh better with them and therefore more worthwhile to equip.

Epilogue
Those are pretty much my ideas regarding the Dragonhunter. If they were implemented, we would have a very interesting and unique specialization to play around with that would be fun and would mesh well with the rest of the guardian lines. It would offer multiple playstyle options and be, at least, much more viable than DH currently is, in both PvP and PvE. I really would love to hear some meaningful feedback on these suggestions, especially including better/alternative ideas for those that anyone disagrees with, and more votes for, “Yeah, [this idea] totally rocks!” from anyone who agrees. If we write enough, hopefully the developers will take note and implement at least some of these (or better ones). Thanks to those who have already replied, and to those who will!

A COUPLE QUICK REPLIES
I actually intended to keep the “bonus damage beyond 600 range” trait as part of the LB grandmaster, but forgot when I was originally typing this up. I have since edited it and added it in there, as well as the obviously necessary “20% faster recharge for LB skills.”

Honestly, given the ridiculously long recharge on Shield of Courage, I really don’t think that a knockback on melee attack (assuming an appropriate ICD per foe) is too powerful (especially considering some other class’s traits/skills). Nevertheless, if it really turned out to be too much, a couple other useful (although less interesting) options would be: Gain Protection for each attack you block or When the shield ends you gain Resistance, or something along those lines. Also, the weakness idea is a possibility.

I didn’t include a full condi cleanse on the trap trait because I think that a couple individual traps should offer that: The heal trap certainly should cleanse conditions, probably twice, and the fragments spawned by Fragments of Faith should also cleanse a condition. More on that later, though.

Spear of Justice is a fairly formidable skill now, especially if fully traited; it may well need a faster cast time than in this last BWE, but I don’t know that I agree with it needing to be instant. I would rather see its power raised, than a faster cast time; it should feel like a powerful, meaningful attack, now, rather than a quick buff for other attacks.

It may, honestly, make more sense to have the LB GM trait simply cause Deflecting Shot to KB (depending on what its mechanics end up being, and so on), rather than any LB arrow, if only because then it could be used when wanted, instead of feeling fairly random. Although, then it becomes more like the Ranger LB, which is I think what they’re trying to avoid (fairly badly, ATM).

I actually would have loved to find a way to put bleeding on the LB in a sensible way, but I was unable to find room for it in a way that was both thematically fitting and not obviously overpowered. I’m open to suggestions, though.

As for my trait suggestions being a complete rework and therefore unrealistic… Yes and no. In a way, they are, but I think that most of what I’ve suggested is fairly easy for them to implement (in that most of the necessary mechanics are there in various other traits and so on, so they aren’t entirely new concepts), and, further, even though the changes seem drastic, a good deal of what I’ve included is actually already a part of the DH spec — it’s just disorganized and too spread-out. And, to be perfectly honest, kitten very many others on here have repeatedly mentioned, the DH traits desperately need a serious rework, because as they are now the class will never be either interesting or competitive. I have only brought them onto a level with the other elite specs (I think. Possibly I went a little overboard on some. But if even some of the ideas somehow make it into the game or influence it in a positive way, it’ll be worth it.) Also, I don’t think it’s too late to suggest things like this; only one BWE has passed, and, given their attention to their players and their iterative design process, if they realize that the player base wants something like this and the spec needs it, they’ll implement it — just like they eventually did when they overhauled all of the core specializations.

Howdy, all. Arena Net keeps talking about how helpful the constructive feedback is, and, since I love my Guardian and really, really want to love the Dragonhunter even more, I present to you all (and hopefully to Karl, Irenio, and the other appropriate Devs, as well), my own constructive feedback on the DH, and, most importantly, some comprehensive ideas for improvement that maintain what seems to be the original theme for the class and idea for the traits. I’ll section things off and try my best not to be too wordy. (I have borrowed some ideas that others have posted. They remain excellent ideas, and I am agreeing with and seconding them, not trying to claim them as my own.)

BRIEF FEEDBACK

The Dragonhunter has the potential to be a very fun and interesting specialization to play, and it certainly has the ability to deliver on the promise of drastically changing the class’s original playstyle. The main (mechanical) problems it suffers from right now are: disorganization, lack of synergy (both in-spec and across specs), weak traits, and somewhat of a lack of focus (many of the traits/skills seem to have forgotten what the DH’s original intent was, and run counter to it). These problems are mostly what cause the spec to feel boring and lackluster to play, and, while they need to be addressed, I do not think that the necessary changes would be terribly difficult to make.

GUIDING THEME

The Dragonhunter is supposed to be a “Big Game Hunter,” of sorts: He excels at hunting down, predicting the movements of, and destroying large, dangerous prey (usually individually or in small numbers). Going with the idea that the best means of protecting the weak is to annihilate the evil, he has traded some of his defense and ally-support for offense. In return, he also gains access to two new conditions: Bleed and Cripple, along with more powerful, physical virtue manifestations.

VIRTUE MODIFICATIONS (SEE NEXT POST FOR OTHER SKILL MODS)

(Much) more on skills later, but for now, the main thing I am concerned with is the traits, since, to my mind, that was the most seriously flawed part of the spec. and the most in need of attention. With that said, it is necessary to keep a couple things in mind as you read the upcoming trait table:

Virtues
Spear of Justice: Probably only needs 900 range on the attack (although the tether should extend to 1200), and most certainly ought to apply any traited effects at the point(s) of impact, rather than on the player casting it.
Wings of Resolve: Should certainly evade during the leap, and probably needs to be 900 range.
Shield of Courage: Is one of the DH’s only survival abilities, and really should be instant cast— in part because of their other channeled/rooting skills.

Bow
There are (what I think are) some really great ideas for this in the second post, below. For now, at least keep in mind that the trait table assumes that LB1 has been modified to, in brief:
Be a three-hit chain (single-target) which applies a mild movement-speed reduction on the first two hits and a very brief, up-to-three target aoe blind on the third hit.

Now, the good stuff…

TRAITS

As a quick preface, I have tried to maintain as many of the original ideas as I could, although a few were combined because they were weak or scrapped because they ran entirely counter to the spec’s stated purpose and theme. I have purposely not included numbers for most of the traits, because that’s going to be up to the developers and based on play-testing. What I wanted was cool mechanics that could create interesting playstyles, synergy, and meaningful choices that could then be tweaked in relatively small and/or numbers-based ways for actual balance. (Rationale follows the traits.)

MINOR

MAJOR

Traps

Virtues

Longbow

Rationale
In general, I had two major purposes here: First, to make the traits thoroughly fit the Dragonhunter’s theme in a powerful and fun way, and, second, to create/allow as much synergy as I reasonably could (hopefully in an interesting way) between the DH’s various traits and between the DH and other Guardian spec lines. More thorough explanations follow:

Minors
One of the major problems with the DH spec currently is that it is a ranged class with almost no kiting ability, and a trapper class with almost no means of keeping enemies in its traps. Further, one of the stated goals of the spec was to allow Guardians access to bleeding and cripple, but, in its current state, the access to those conditions is both low in volume and extremely narrow in range. The minor traits I have suggested aim at fixing all of these problems, as well as adding even more encouragement and reward to the skillful and well-timed activation of the new virtues. With Hunter’s Ambush, no individual traps need to cripple/immobilize/knockdown on activation, and any permutation of traps may be used, while still ensuring the ability to cripple someone who falls into the ambush (and at the same time preventing too much cripple from one source). Likewise, it potentially aids the (already relatively slow) Guardians at kiting or avoiding an unhelpful or ill-timed engagement, since from out of the combat, the first bow shot will cripple. Chasing is similarly aided. These couple of minor traits fix a myriad of DH problems all at once, while perfectly fitting and fulfilling the theme.

Major
Some of these seem fairly powerful, but then, so are many of the Guardian’s other traits, as well as many traits on other classes and elite specs. I’m fairly certain that most of them could be balanced with the modification of numbers (stacks, duration, ICDs, etc.), though.

Traps
Multiple stacks of bleeding on activation, rather than per hit, helps balance the trait across the various traps; the main potential issue is the danger of stacking absurd amounts of it all at once. But then, traps are all about spikes, right? If instant bleed stacks looks like it will be a problem, then the alternative fix, as someone suggested below, would be to keep it as, “Traps hits apply bleeding” and simply modify all of the single-hit traps to pulse multiple times. This might actually be the better fix. Further, the Master trait enables the DH to reposition quickly after placing his traps, offers some help in kiting/escaping, and supports the idea the as soon as the trap fires on his prey, he’s ready to spike it down. The GM I envisioned as being called something like, One With The Light, bringing a number of other light-oriented things together with the traps in a harmonious way which, again, adds both damage and utility, as well as allowing the player some meaningful synergy choices with other specs lines and traits; my hope is that this one will certainly be implemented, and that a different symbol will be chosen for each trap (since that would make the choices even more meaningful). Faster Virtue recharge under retaliation seems to fit well with the symbols (since one applies it and they are all light fields) and fits the theme well, plus, it seems necessary, since for a trapper the activated virtues will be much more necessary to survival and success.

Virtues
Wings of Resolve is a desperation survival mechanic on a long cooldown; causing it to deal damage and immobilize is sort of boring, rarely worth it (since it will almost always be saved for the heal/condi cleanse), and almost impossible to balance, since, in order for the damage or immobilize to make using it worth it, the numbers would have to be unfairly high. By causing it to instead grant aoe stability and a couple seconds of self-quickness, the utility and original defensive/salvation-oriented purpose remains, but offense is also supported in a much more interesting manner. Now it’s possible to leap to your allies’ rescue with a quick heal that also momentarily protects them from control and then use the swiftness to either cast more heals/defense (even Signet of Courage, perhaps, for those courageous enough to run it), quickly lay down a couple powerful traps, interrupt an important skill, or otherwise turn the tide of battle, either defensively or offensively, depending on your build. It would also make it useful for peeling, chasing, spiking enemies caught in traps (esp. with The Hunt Must Go On), and so on. The uses are far more and allow much more meaningful and interesting play and choices than mere damage and immobilize. Next, traiting Shield of Courage for size seems silly: It should be a decent size for practical use, and that should be it. Duration and an occasional knockback, however, would be very welcome (and more interesting). The KB also allows synergy with the Longbow GM trait, and causes the shield to quickly give a desperate DH some breathing room. Big Game Hunter was already a pretty powerful GM, in terms of damage, but I did feels that it needed a little something extra, and allowing a Guardian to apply bleeding when applying vulnerability seems to be perfect. This way, there is access to a potentially significant amount of extra bleeding in a line other than traps, and it again offers potential synergy with other spec lines, weapons, and etc.

Longbow
The Longbow is not currently a terribly mobile weapon, and Guardians are not the most mobile class. Instead of complaining about that, I decided to try something different: Destroying the enemy’s mobility and rewarding the player more for being frequently rooted. Stability from True Shot was actually an interesting trait, and by adding regeneration on stability to it, actually using it is more rewarding, offers some of the only sustain available in the DH spec, and allows more across-spec synergy options, making it a much more meaningful choice. Likewise, Cripple on Blind makes sense thematically (of course you would move slower if you couldn’t see), fits their original trait name (“Dulled Senses”), and creates a large amount of cross-spec. and cross-weapon synergy. It gives not just one or two DH skills, but the Guardian as a whole access to cripple and opens up a variety of different builds. Further, it aids somewhat in the viability of the Healing Trap, since it blinds, making it possible to use it either offensively, to keep enemies in other traps, or defensively, to slow down a pursuer. Finally, I generally liked Heavy Light, as an idea, but its useful pieces were spread out and by itself it was too weak to merit a GM slot. It now acts as a general buff to the LB that also cross-synergizes with other weapons and skills (Banish, Bane Signet, the wards on the hammer and staff, Spirit Hammer, underwater sink/float skills, etc.), making it a much more powerful and meaningful choice.

Summary
In general, Traps are now usable and have the necessary mechanics to provide some utility and an incredible amount of spike damage, as they should. Virtues can be traited in meaningful and unique ways that also allow some interesting synergy and open up a variety of other interesting choices in builds and playstyles. The Longbow still lacks mobility, but that does somewhat fit the idea of a trapper class that snipes down its captured prey from hiding, and it now makes up somewhat for that by the ability to destroy a large amount of the enemy’s mobility.

see next post for skill changes

This certainly seems to be the sensible thing to do, and the Chonomancer (IIRC) and Reaper already basically follow this model. The Dragonhunter and Tempest, however, are sorely lacking in the organization, interest, and meaning department in their traits; mostly, they just feel very random and disorganized. It shouldn’t be such a difficult thing to rework them so that (given the weapons and stated intent of the classes):

Tempests have:
+ Overload (& aura?) improvement line
+ Shout & Warhorn improvement line
+ Melee/Brawler improvement line

Dragonhunters have:
+ Longbow/ranged improvement line
+ Traps improvement line
+ Virtues improvement line

Or something like that. It would certainly bring some desperately needed organization and purpose to their currently disorganized and scattered traits.

so. pls watch what people tell you in the forum. when BW1 was nearly every comment contained “fixes” to longbow. It could look like this:
1. increase arrow speed (the whole point of guard getting another range option was that scepter aa sucks. so giving us a weapon with the exact same problem just leaves me speachless)
2. you can now move while casting (maybe reduce the dmg abit in exchange)
3. its not a ground target anymore. instead you target an enemy (this skill is near useless as a ground target skill)
4. make it able to shoot behind you (like arcing arrow)
5. this skill is actually fine
Virtues as i said feel like a downcrate. a fix could be:
F1: seems fine. dmg increase wasnt really needed
F2: 900 range
F3: instant cast
the traits of dragonhunter feel mostly boring and without love or just underwhelming. The propesed changes help a bit but are far from being enough.
my ideas:
“big game hunter” make it cause cripple instead of vulnerability. this would also make the F1 skill much more useful. the chain effect you see would also come to life. enemys once hit cant run away that easily anymore
combine “heavy light” and “dulled senses” into one GM trait. The created space in master tier could be used for a skill like: " traps are groundtarget "
combine “bulwark” and “hunters fortification” into one master trait. this GM is really underwhelming. The space in the GM tier could be used for another trap trait. This way we have the ability to pic one trap, one longbow and one virtue trait in every tier
ideas for it could be: “immob on trap activation” or “increased radius + duration of traps” or maybe something like " Fragments of Faiths if you get stunned"
Im overall not a big fan of traps as a utility. but it seems we are stuck with it. so maybe some love in the traits could make it useful. also it seems like a good idea to go with 3 traits for longbow,3 traits for virtues and 3 traits for traps. People gonna use the Dragonhunter for one of those 3 things. They have to go into the traitline to use them. So why not give them traits in each tier for the thing they want to use as well?"

^^^ This. All of this. Especially the traits, and the part about LB feeling absurdly slow and clunky. Also, what is the reasoning behind rooting the player while charging “True Shot?” The damage is not nearly worth the immobility, especially when F3 is no longer instant cast. Even with instant F3, there is just no reason to be rooted for a skill that does that amount of damage.

Also, am I the only one annoyed by the fact that the LB5 animation is an exact rip-off of the Ranger’s Barrage? We couldn’t do something that felt a little more… Guardian-like? Like with floating and light beams or something?

Much more importantly, Alias is entirely right about the traits: Most of them are ridiculously weak and underwhelming right now (especially compared to most of the Guardian’s other trait lines), and they are far more spread out and disorganized than the other elite specs (although the Tempest has a similar, entirely random and disorganized feel). Organize that nonsense, and maybe make some of them actually synergize with other Guardian traits/skills, because right now, they’re just ridiculous. A line dedicated to LB, one for the new Virtues, and one for traps would be great — especially if it meant that traps could be traited for both CD reduction and around 600 range ground-targeting, so that they actually fit with the ranged playstyle. Cripple, rather than Vulnerability, on the Spear of Justice trait is an amazing idea.

The biggest issue right now is that everything on DH feels super random and wonky, and none of it really fits together with anything else, either on the DH or the rest of what Guardians do. The few traits that do fit together (like Heavy Light and cripple on knockback) are too weak individually, because they are basically useless without each other (i.e., Guardians just don’t have that much knockback, and without Heavy Light, there is literally none available in the DH weapon or skills — why would those traits be separated?) And finally, not only are traps right now totally melee and LB totally ranged, but there is almost nothing readily available (and certainly nothing on even relatively short CD) in either traps or LB that can actually keep enemies either at range or in the traps. GS/Hammer is better for keeping them in the traps, and Scepter for kiting. I would much rather be able to trait True Shot for movement while casting and cripple on hit than stability. And that would actually fit with the other traits, skills, and overall theme. Who wants to use a long-windup, stuck-in-place skill for a couple seconds of stability? Guardians have much better ways of getting that particular boon.

Yeah I play on Sea of Sorrows, and it’s been bugged there since last night. Bunch of people have tried it while I’ve been standing there, with no result. I tried guesting on Northern Shiverpeaks and Jade Quarry, as well, still with no success.