Guild Wars 2

I always seem to que for the wrong borderland at reset. I often either fail to get in or get in with a commander I don’t care for or who doesn’t command very effectively.

Que’d for EBG and manage to get in very easily. Actually were outmanned for the first 10 mins or so of the match. I was thinking it was going to be a bad night.

But thankfully it was not. Apex (Maguuma) did an awesome job commanding! I am often too quick to criticize and seldom give praise. Just wanted to take a moment to thank Apex for a fun night.

Alukah.2063:

As a lurker, reading so much about oPP here made me think it was as “good” guild, until I met them today spawn camping. Say what you want, but spawn camping has to be one of the lowest things people would do “just to have fun”.

TL;DR: trash guild is trash.

Not defending them or condoning them. But is there really a difference between killing them exiting their spawn or killing them by ambushing them while they take back say the SW or SE tower? If an enemy is so dumb they keep charging out into superior numbers of player and dying over and over then they deserve what they get…. a freaking Darwin Award!

Even if there was not 2 other exits they could leave out of, it is beyond stupid to let yourself get farmed that way. While I rarely do it, if someone wants to charge out and donate free loot and bags to me, I’d be dumb not to take advantage of it.

Killing them in open field with superior number and tactics is actually less sporting if you think about it. At spawn they have a place to run back to and legendary guards to defend them.

Someone wake me when gold league and all this toxic pve stuff is not part of WvW.

Jaxs.5830:

RedOwl.7496:

But how do you get SOS to understand that whether they come in 5th or 6th, it doesn’t matter?

Why are you blaming SoS? The wxp train is what drives this stuff, on all servers, not just SoS. You cannot stop our train from blindly running around taking whatever they can, so why expect SoS to do it?

I thought most players were in WvW to actually fight players not beat on doors and take stuff defended with only a handful of players. Some actually enjoy challenging fights. Hint: you can get your WXP from taking JQ towers and keeps also. But then you would have had to actually work hard for it.

If SOS had focused on JQ on their side of the map, and Mag had done the same, then the whole match would have been more fun for everyone IMO. Or at least those not looking for easy mode boring fights. JQ’s massive zerg would have had to constantly split up and fight on two fronts. I think a lot of them would probably have preferred the challenge of that instead of running in a circle steamrolling everything.

Basically when you and JQ focused on Mag at the same time, it made it easy for JQ to wipe Mag off the map. And then of course when they were done with that and got bored, they started on SoS and wiped your stuff off the map. You could have delayed them from doing that or maybe even prevented it had you hit them when they were hitting us, instead of hitting us at same time they were.

But it happens like this in every darn lopsided match up like this. I wish just ONCE the 2 weaker servers would focus on beating the big one and leave each mostly alone.

But whatever…play the way you want.

declan.3968:

RedOwl.7496:

But how do you get SOS to understand that whether they come in 5th or 6th, it doesn’t matter?

PPT doesn’t matter to SOS, what matters is WXP. Hence, pick the path of least resistance and stick to it. Does that explain things much?

If the only thing you cared about was WXP with little to no resistance, then you my as well have tried to tank to get in silver league.

You could have had so many more empty keeps and towers doors to beat on and would have gotten a lot more WXP. Just surprised since most WvW players get bored of doing that real fast and prefer to actually have someone to fight. I wouldn’t be able to stay awake myself.

You might want to transfer to SBI since they seem to tick 650 an hour a lot every night. They must be running around beating on doors a lot. Sounds like your kind of matchup.

But how do you get SOS to understand that whether they come in 5th or 6th, it doesn’t matter?

Or maybe they have delusions of grandeur and actually think they have some chance at being in the top 3. Maybe they are so delusional they they think #1 is attainable.

Just not getting how they think teaming with JQ accomplishes anything other than winning this week’s match…which gains them exactly what?

“Ban people for not playing defense? There’s no way they’re going to punish anyone for how EB is played with seasons”
—-
No…ban people for agreeing to let each other take SM over and over. If they invited players to a group and discussed doing so, there would be logs. As I understand it, this is against the rules. If not, call it some sort of code of honor. You know it is wrong and should feel bad for doing it.

There is little doubt there was a lot of double teaming by SOS and JQ this week. Many nights you could watch the map and see how little you hit each other while you both focused on Maguuma.

Funny thing is I guess SOS thinks beating Maguuma is some big deal. Going into Gold you would have to be a moron to NOT see that no matter what happens, Maguuma and SOS will end up in 5th and 6th place. Nothing we do is going to beat BG, JQ, TC, or SOR. Unless a whole lot of players leave at once from those servers, or a whole of others transfers into Mag or SoS. And that ain’t going to happen I think because instead a whole lot of players will be bandwagoning and will move to whatever server they think of those will be the ‘winning’ server. And it ain’t Mag or SOS!

Also, I may be wrong but do you REALLY think there will be a big reward difference between 5th or 6th place? Really? I hardly think so.

So the only thing SOS really accomplished this week when they were in conclusion with JQ, was make JQ players have it more easy than they would have had.
Was this really smart? Did you enjoy making it easier for them?

It would have made a lot more sense for Maguuma and SOS to mostly leave each other alone and focus on putting pressure on JQ. If they had to constantly focus on fighting 2 fronts at least it might have been a challenge for them and might have at least wore them out so they would not have had such stupid numbers 24/7.

SOS, all you accomplished was letting them win way more easily than they might have otherwise. As the great Ricky Bobby once said, “If you ain’t first, your last!” No one is going to remember, nor care, who came in 5th or 6th.

So quit trying so hard to win gold and just farm bags and look for fun fight instead. No one is going to care that you managed to beat Maguuma with the help of 8,000 JQ monkeys carrying you.

P.S. JQ thanks for all the loot bags.

“SMC has changed hands four five times in the last 35 minutes – JQ→Mags→JQ→SoS→Mags?JQ”

The night before, in the late morning hours, it was JQ>SOS>JQ>SOS>JQ>SOS>JQ>SOS>JQ. You get the idea. Seems like some collusion BS going on there. Just wish ANET would monitor group chat more agressively and ban people doing stuff like that.

Of course when they were not swapping SM, they were often hitting Mag garrison from 2 sides at the same time.

SM achievement is easy to get compared to trying to get merc camp achievement with hordes of SOS and JQ flooding into them non stop.

It’s Anet way of removing gold from the economy to force you to buy gems from them. Or so it seems. It is like they sit back cackling every time they do a patch that wipes siege because they sure don’t seem motivated to do anything about fixing it.

These are the only 2 I have and issue with.

- Mists Merc Camp Vanquisher
- Demolition Expert

But I will add jumping puzzles.

I have one character with ram mastery so I always back off and let someone else use it. And last night I grabbed a ram with my ram mastery and got kicked by the owner. It does cause a lot of arguments and is hard to get for those who rarely get a chance to operate siege. The answer is not, “just be the jerk who does not want to get along with their team.”

As some already said, the merc camp is just “daft.” No idea what brain thought of this one. If they had made it 10 instead of 50 I might not have minded so much. Only 30 towers but 50 merc camps perfectly illustrates how little Anet understands or plays WvW. Most serious players probably had 30 towers in the 1st week if not first few days. It probably should have been 250 towers to get the full reward.

As someone else said, the que for EBG is often the longest. And if you are playing against a server with a huge population, it makes it really hard to get the merc camps. Often all you accomplish by trying to do them is you get to flip them gray so the enemy can then flood in and take them..and then THEY get credit. I’ve taken to just letting them stay the enemy color so they can’t flip them back. If I can’t get credit then certainly not going to make it easier for them to it.

Sadly, I’ll be forced to do stupid jumping puzzles instead now. They should not be part of the achievements IMO. It’s PvE not WvW and the puzzle has no effect on WvW. Completely pointless. Nothing worse than trying to hold off a huge enemy zerg trying to take your garrison, and someone in chat asking for players to come clear enemy campers out of puzzle instead of helping defend.

I dunno. Population imbalances is the biggest problem with WvW IMO. 80 players should not have such an easy time running around wiping out a whole map with almost no effort just because the other side only has 10 players logged in.

If they implemented some sort of system where the enemy could never log in more that double the numbers of the other servers I’d be fine with it. Then maybe the over populated servers would get sick of 4 hour ques or whatever and MOVE to a low populated server.

I get sick of spending so much time and money upgrading stuff, just to have it all wiped overnight because whatever server I am on does not have good late night or early morning coverage.

Everything could be completely fortified and a billion pieces of siege everywhere and it all does not matter one bit when it is 80 vs 10. Make it so it 20 vs 10, or 40 vs 20, or 80 vs 40, and it will be a different story. Upgrades and siege will MATTER then. And it would put an end, or greatly slow down, the easy mode karma train farming.

I think they are a good thing since there needed to be some kind of progression. I need something to work towards or it becomes too pointless for me. I get bored with a character soon after I hit 80.

I would have quit the game a long time ago…oh wait. I did quit for about 8 months and find I am having a lot more fun with WvW ranks. I feel like I am still accomplishing something even in lopsided matches were I am mindlessly zerging and taking stuff by beating on doors.

In other words, ‘be everywhere at once with more players than the enemy.’

Must be nice to have enough players to guard Dolyaks, and guard camps and towers. Good luck trying to do all that on lower population servers.

Look at some of the matchups now where some servers are frequently ticking over 600. How exactly do you think the ones losing are supposed to do half of the things you say to “DO NOT” and “DO.”

“For instance, last night I was told to learn my class.”

“The sad part was he didn’t even have an elementalist. He said his guildies ran that, but never mentioned himself.”

I really hate these sort of players. They think you HAVE to only use a particular set of gear, spec only one way, and play a certain way. And usually they ‘know’ it because someone else told them thier opinion, or they read it somewhere, and they accepted it without question.

They are lucky Jim Jones isn’t still around. They’d be the ones drinking his Kool Aid.

Did about 12 rounds on one account and got credit for first 3 and none after.

Did it 8 times last night on a different account and my achievement say 0 of 8.

It was fun the first few times. But I really do not want to do it anymore. Rather be in WvW.

Oh almost forgot about “a sure fire way to purge the bads out of maguma? sounds like a good plan to me.”

Playing GW2 is really not hard.

I know there are some players that really shine and make a class stand out in GW2. Let’s say they are the top 10%. And there are some bad players that maybe just don’t know what to do because they are new. Or maybe even mentally challenged. These can be the bottom 10%. Everyone else is the middle 80% IMO.

I daresay most of the people who think, and say, they are great players…really are not! They just think they are better than most of the players around them. They are really in the middle 80% and just too egotistical to realize it. I know I am in the middle somewhere and know I am not in the top 10% on any class. Wish more Maguuma players would realize that. Get tired of hearing in mumble how great they think they are and how ‘bad’ everyone else is. I know it is hard to believe, but having some humility is a generally seen as a positive trait.

Same with large guilds. Think because you have a large guild that is WvW oriented you don’t have any bad players in it? And everyone in small guild, or guilds that aren’t focused as much on WvW, are all ‘bad’? Please! <rolls eyes>. So darn ridiculous.

Be interesting to see how well some of these ‘elite’ commanders, who are wishing to “purge the bads,” do in WvW in the gold league when they have even less people following them than they had the past few weeks. After the ‘bads’ transfer’ or quit logging into WvW, and they have 1/3 their usual numbers following them, how fun is it going to be fighting a server like say, TC? Bet they will wish they had more of those ‘bads’ following them. Most of those so called bads are just average players who are just like them. And of course they will never admit it…even too themselves!

Having superior numbers is greater than strategy, tactics, or skill most of the time in WvW.
(Yes I know sometimes you win the 2 vs 1 fights with less…those are the ones you tend to remember. Just remember those you did not)

Maybe think about that some more before you encourage people to quit the game…or transfer…or get out of WvW…or insult and tell them they are bad. Instead, try teaching them to be better.

I am not sure which is gonna be best for Maguuma…gold or silver. But I have enjoyed Mag actually caring more for PPT than we normally do in an effort of get gold. I think a lot more care than admit it…it is just the ‘cool’ thing to do and talk about how much you do not care. Especially when you are just parroting something that a popular commander said.

I get PPT does not equal skill. But if Maguuma really does not care, then there would be no need to ever capture anything. Why not just stand in a blob in the bloodrust ruins and wait for open field fights? Or maybe the windmill at one of the south camps? GvG fights in open field pretty much mean nothing. My as well just que up for spvp. If you aren’t taking towers and keeps, why even bother going to WvW?

Does that mean I don’t want fun, balanced fights? Of course not. But those happen like 1 out every 20 fights seems like. I doubt there will be many good fights in the gold league. Though silver might be too easy, it might be more fun to gather ‘free’ loot bags than die over and over and have to spend a lot of coin on repairs.

I hope all these commanders pushing for gold will be out playing WvW as much as they have been the past couple weeks even if all 4 maps are 95% enemy colors. But I’d bet a lot of them won’t be on as much if they keep getting steamrolled by 4 times their numbers every time they take something. They might regret getting what they wish for.

Guess we will see…

Hey Maguuma. If serious about the next couple matchs in WvW can we can a little more serious about communication and a little more professional in Mumble?
No idea who pays for it or controls it. But some moderation perhaps?

I play late at night a lot and often most players gather in one channel. But often it is hard to find because so many are in a guild channel rather than a WVW channel. Often there are 2 or more channels and it leads to communication problems IMO.

I understand a guild wanting to do their own thing. But if you want people to follow you in WvW and want them to easily find you, please at least be in a WvW channel.

If nothing else…think of new players to the server or someone joining mumble for the first time. Don’t you think most will not want to join a guild channel that they are not member of? Want to lose them from the start if they don’t know where to go or where to join? Or because it is always ‘quiet’ in the wvw channel for the BL they are on.

Sorry to point fingers but the worst offenders seem to be in VR guild. I am tired of having to join channels named “Booty Sweat” or “Whisper Oldsmeller about 12 year olds” because thier commanders are leading and they are too cool or whatever to be in the WvW channels. I do like some of them…but I won’t be following anymore if they won’t be a more ‘server’ oriented team player instead of just about caring about their guild. The game may be titled “Guild Wars 2” but it really should be titled “Server Wars” or something.

I will no longer follow a commander that is not in mumble and not in a WvW channel. Simple as that. And if doesn’t get better I won’t even bother with mumble. Why be in mumble for WvW if everyone is off doing their own thing in guild channels? Yeah, yeah…I know few if any care….but putting it out there for those that may.

I constantly hear complaints from commanders about people not being in mumble. JerkJerk and Bony especially. Not sure what they can do much about it…but Maguuma mumble needs some fixing IMO.

/rant off

I HAVE AN IDEA!

Forget RNG and pit SoS/SBI/Mag together for the matchup. Winner goes to Gold league.

Wait. Someone already said that.

That is an excellent idea! Hope they do it.

Makes defending even more pointless than it was before. And now there is even less point in buying upgrades.

I bet if everyone would just quit buying upgrades for towers and keeps they’d change it.

It is like they want stuff to be easy to flip for some reason. I wonder how much money upgrades takes out of the economy?

Lot’s of things they could do…but probably won’t.

I think they want stuff to constantly flip since all the upgrades players spend money on are pretty much nothing more than a money sink. Stuff gets flipped so fast I rarely ever bother spending my coin on upgrades. I wish other players would just stop to.

I wish they would limit the number of rams you could place on a gate to 3 if not 1. Same limit for golems would not hurt. At least it would give defenders more time to get to a tower/keep.

As someone else said, players not being able to damage gate is something else that might help. If they have to build siege and then protect it, might make things more difficult for attackers.

I wish they would add an upgrade that allows you protection while operating siege equipment. A bubble that shelters you or something. Trying to operate oil for example is just instant death. My as well not ever be built since it is ZERO deterrent. Defenders should be racing each other to be the first on the oil instead of completely avoiding it.

Needs to be some sort of anti omega golem siege. A multiple omega golem rush makes almost all defensive siege completely worthless. Maybe a tower of some sort with a turrent that is 90% immune to ranged golem damage that can target them 360 degrees. Something like a treb that can be built as part of a towers final upgrade.

I dunno what the answers is…but a 70 man zerg should not be able to just walk up and take a heavily sieged tower with 20 defenders like it is nothing. They should fear it. Defenders inside a fully upgraded tower should have most if not all of the advantages. As it is now, attackers have all the advantages. Defenders are just loot bags waiting for their deaths!

I love defending when it works. Sadly, it rarely does and is often a complete waste of time bothering to even try. I love leveling alts and getting lots of easy karma and wxp while doing a karma train. But I’d gladly give it all up for challenging fights.

“If it wasnt a genuine question but actually a veiled whine because it is too difficult without a 100 strangers zerging alongside you, I suggest you ask your guild/friends to take some time off from their other activities to help you.”

I am on a server where there is only a few inside the pavilion every time I have checked it. And they are there doing the gauntlet.

You might find it hard to believe but not everyone is in a large guild like I assume you are from your response. I like it that way and I like to solo more than do group stuff anyway. And none of my friends play many computer games much less GW2. You seem to look down your nose at the idea of someone completing stuff with “100 strangers zerging” beside them. Seems to me doing content with a large guild is even easier. And how many of them truthfully are not strangers?

And even if I were in a large guild, I would not ask them anyway. One of the reasons I hate large guilds is because there is always someone asking for help to do stuff for them…yet seem to never have time to help anyone else when they are asked. I got sick of that quite a few years ago in other MMOs.

But thanks for the response. I could have done without the superior than thou attitude that went with it. Just because completing it was easy for you, does not mean it is for everyone else.

I can represent the others and escort emissaries to balloon towers and get to 100/100. And what a huge pain this is when afterwards you have to beat a champ to get another mission to escort emissaries again. All most had to do was zerg the events in the pavilion over and over to easily get all the 100/100 achievements. Wish I had been doing it to more before invasions started.

So how am I supposed to represent Lion’s Arch and complete this one? No one is doing events in the crown pavilion. Nor are they likely to as long as they can do invasions every hour instead.

Selwynn.2758:

Archonis.7249:

Man, these QQ or helping people QQ threads are getting annoying.

I am about to just go to every other profession’s forums and QQ about certain builds that I am weak against. Maybe I can just stop learning to play and have the Devs make it easier for me.

If you are running around solo in WvW, it is a good chance that you might die if you run into a BS thief. Why? Because the Thief which is designed to have one hell of a burst probably hasn’t seen someone in at least 1 min. Which means his OMGERD! combo and GCDs are up and ready to stomp you.

This is true, but its also why MMOs should stop making thief type classes. Because everyone who is not a theif cannot stand being killed in 0.0001 seconds before having any chance to do anything – that’s not “fun.” So they cry and cry and cry until the devs nerf theives into the ground, making them unplayable and useless, making theif players miserable.

extreme burst type archtypes should just be done away with in favor of more creative class types that are fun, but rely on a combination of toughness and damage and not insta-kill power.

OMG this times 10! Stealth plus high burst DPS is kitten and something competant devs, IMO, should have learned from other MMO’s mistakes. You are absolutely correct. Most anyone who is not playing a thief cannot stand them. Their complaints (hopefully) will cause them to get nerfed to being useless (again hopefully)!

I guess the saying about history is true. “Those who fail history are doomed to repeat it.” Anet arrogantly must have thought they could “do it right” or whatever. They failed and just haven’t, or cannot, admit it yet.

They apparently cannot fix culling so time to redesign the Thief class. Even without culling issues, their DPS is just totally out of whack compared to other classes given they have stealth and highest mobility in the game. It seems like there sure are a lot of devs playing thieves or something.

I just cannot comprehend how anyone could think thieves are fine in their current form or are not bad for the long term health of GW2.

Xter.6271:

The simple solution is what I posted above. Because everyone whines about stealth but no one seems to use common sense about our stealth abilities. Hate CnD? Kite with a ranged weapon. Hate Shadow Refuge? Do what I said above, we trap ourselves in a small circle for 4 seconds. Hate thieves with a dagger in general? Or even a melee weapon? Learn to kite better.

Kite? Really? Have you played other classes and tried this? Since thieves have the best mobility in the game, what class is supposed to be able to this well? Especially when you can’t shoot with your ranged weapon what you cannot see. Especially when you are dead or only have a sliver of health left when and if you do get a chance to see them. Funny stuff.

Now maybe if they made thieves move like 1/4 speed or less when stealthed. Made range of steal like 100 instead of 900. Make all attacks from stealth require being in 100 range or something so they have to remain visible to try to catch up to you. Maybe kiting might work consistently. But again only if you aren’t already dead.

I know it is in a line that is not spec’d for much. But ANET in last patch made it so they could spec for 150% movement while stealthed. Really? Really? This just shows how clueless they are about how overpowered thieves are in WvW and how they are more of a problem everyday.

Thieves have at all. They need to give up something to make the game more balanced before 3/4 of all the players in WvW are thieves. Of course then maybe ANET will finally do something. Do you really want to play the game if it becomes thieves vs thieves all the time?

So make damage lower, stealth weaker, or reduce mobility. Saying they are fine as they are is mind boggling to me. It is like thieves are playing a different game than the rest of us.

Mischwoof you should do more videos! That was hilarious. And motivating. I wish I could play that well and now going to have to try this build. If nothing else, maybe I can be more successful on suicide runs to try to take out enemy siege.

Raincrow.1840:

You don’t need a guild to enjoy WvW.

Very true!

Raincrow.1840:

High DPS + Stealth + Fast Escape = Over Powered

Culling just makes it worse,

Yep. Take away one and there would be a lot less complaints. But I prefer a bit of all 3.

Reduce DPS. Make damage pop them out of stealth add a timer where they cannot restealth for like 10 seconds. Make them move like 1/4 normal speed when stealthed. Make them have to get in really close to attack from stealth…like 50 or maybe 100 units. Get rid of the shortbow teleport so they can’t escape as easily when they fail an attack. Bet we would see a lot less complaints and reduced number of thieves.

Wouldn’t hurt to make a class a stealther hunter. Like give ranger pets, or least some of them, an ability to find and pop stealthers.

cuge.5398:

Why zergs are so popular ?
Because the actual meta game leads to just care about offensive actions and rarely cares of defence.
What happens 90% of times now is zerg rush a camp grab supplies, takes a tower then takes a keep and repeat the same somewhere else.
Its not important to hold a keep/tower/camp, but its only important to have it when the tick happens. This is the real bad aspect of WvW as it is now, cause lets suppose the extreme case in which there is a server A with not really big numbers, holding the whole map for 90% of the time, the other server B with big numbers just let them do, then right before the tick they bring up 2 zergs and rush east and west side of the map, getting almost everything.
Result, server A did all the work of holding and upgrading, and at the end of the day they got 20 points, server B just rush and dont care and they got all the points.

At the beginning Devs said that who better manage supplies wins WvW, actually thats not so true… but i think it really should be.

So here there are my suggestions (not all come from me, but good ideas must be repeated):

Point system review
+ Some points should be earned on succesfull capture of a point.
+ Points per tick given by any structure should increase over time. Such as camps starting at 0 points first tick (but still you get 5 points for the cap), then 5 more points second tick, 7 points third, 4th – 10pt, 5th – 14pt and stops there.
Same goes for keeps, 2nd – 25pt, 3rd – 30pt, 4th – 35pt, 5th – 40pt.
This way just capping something for the tick will be lot less rewarding than holding it.

Supply system review
+ When they get capped their depot should be empty, so there is no use for a zerg to rush to a camp and flip it just for the tick and resupply. Supplies will go to whom defend the camp.
+ Dolyaks should be a lot harder to kill, at the moment is useless to escort them cause any burst built toon can just suicide on it and take it down in 3 skills. I’d say they should have like 4000armor and 50k hp.
+ Dolyaks should have one additional upgrade to carry more supply, like 75 – 125 – 250.
+ There should always be 2 guards defending a dolyak, and 3 more should come with the upgrade. Yaks shouldnt be something that you kill passing by…. they should be really something to care more, by both sides.

General changes
+ A little damage increase to Siege Weapons.
+ 5 targets cap removed on aoe, BUT some skills would then need to be adjusted with such a change, for example barrage and elementalist storms, they should have their radius reduced a little. This would promote strategy, like the use of choke points to hold zergs, and will greatly discourage stuff like turtling.
+ Let karma be a currency for structures upgrades.

I like most of theses ideas. Need to be more incentive to upgrade and hold onto stuff when you take it. Along with that something needs to be given to the ones who spend money on upgrades. People should be arguing on who gets to claim a keep not avoiding it or having to ask someone to claim.

Not sure I like making siege so powerful. That helps the attackers as much if not more than defenders. Defending needs to be much easier. 20 men with siege in a keep should keep a large zerg busy for a really long time. Not 30 minutes or whatever. Only keep than can really be defended well for any length of time is East keep and that is mostly because of the choke point into lord room.

Maybe bubbles that give a lot of protection to manned siege on walls like the oil and arrow carts. They all become almost useless due to huge amount of aoe from a large zerg. Make the walls and doors on a fully ugraded tower much stronger than they are now. More guards. Something to make defending easier and worth doing. It is so hard at times to get players to defend. All they want to do is karma train.

Mian.1945:

Yay in theory but it NEVER works. There is a reason for the old saying the best defense is a good offense and your entire post also outlines the whole problem. Stepping aside from the whole “thief” drama, in any PVP game where there is a class with “avoidance” mechanics this becomes a massive force multiplier on their whole dmg/vs tank paradigm.

Super run speed is another example that breaks PVP in the same way stealth does. If I can run much faster than anyone in the game then I decide when and where PVP occurs. I can joust the other guy and it gives me a massive force multiplier advantage. If I am the only class with snare in the game it creates the same problem because now I can kite everyone and again I control the PVP.

Let’s take another example, suppose for arguments sake one of the GW2 classes had immense endurance regen as part of their “flavour” to the point where they could dodge roll almost continuously. This would break the game in similar ways to stealth. I could go glass cannon without caring about the consequences. If you don’t believe how effective this would be go and take the Thief trait Feline Grace and watch your survival rate quadruple.

So these types of classes are freed from the consequences of the dmg vs tank decision making process and can effectively glass cannon without the downsides, or at least with severely reduced downsides. This was the case in Aion with the Ranger and Assassin, with extreme stealth abilities all they had to worry about was offense, defense didn’t matter. You are free from having to make the burst vs bunker decision whereas everyone else is forced to make it and then their decision is also made for them, they must choose bunker because burst affords them no utility against a target they can’t engage.

So then a force multiplier for your character also becomes a skill multiplier. Two equally skilled players, the one with the force multiplier will win 8 of 10 matches. A lower skilled player can use an advantageous class to clownshoe his way over other players and think he’s doing great.

That’s a great post Mian. It seems offense is always better than defense in most of these games. Frustrating cause I like to be able to spec for defense when it works. Like using a shield on a warrior type class.

Sadly, it is the same in WvW. Offense is so much easier than defense and you get more rewards for it than you do trying to defend. I wish they would change it…but know they won’t.

Tulisin.6945:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Against stealth, however, they only have one real answer: swap to staff and drop marks. Once they have their four circles down, that’s it.

While marks are a good deterrent to stealth by dropping them near your feet, they’re a poor counter. Deter the thief without putting any pressure on them and they still get the full benefit of stealth with no real downside. Necromancers do suffer uniquely from ranged attacks that lack a projectile, but they also have one of the more effective stealth counters in minions (which tend to track and damage stealthed enemies after stealth and immediately when it drops). For actually hunting and killing a thief you’re probably better off using a dagger mainhand than a stave, since the higher-rate auto attack will give you more chances to hit (and thus determine the location of) the thief.
All in all the profession has some good stealth counters, even if they’re not common in the more popular builds.

LoL! Minions tracking the stealther aren’t a lot of help when you die in 2 seconds. I had chance the other day to see a thief momentarily right before I died while playing necro.

I was able to cast one mark and his next hit killed me. It went something like 7K steal, 7K CnD, then 12K backstab, I finally see them cast one spell and was killed by their auto attack probably. Not sure I had a pet out but what good would it have been?
Running around swinging daggers wildly at thin air would not have changed the end result.

Real fun ‘fight’ for me. I guess it may have been fun for them if they are the type of player who likes walking around ganking lowbies as a high level like you can in other games. Seems to be the type of player the Thief class attracts.

salluks.6017:

Closest is reddit and gw2guru.. But gw2guru wvw section is next to dead for obvious reasons and reddit is pve oriented(not much discussion about wvw there).

Yeah I sometimes use reddit. Thinking of using it all the time myself since mods here are way too quick to lock and delete threads…especially ones that are critical of anyhting ANET does. I can’t blame them for not liking it…but they have to expect it and should at least read it. And they should not be so heavy handed with the censorship.

Adaneshade.2409:

This is, has been, and always will be, the role of the “assassin” archetype in PvP.
(and please don’t argue the “thief” vs “assassin” semantics…… the thief is intended to fill the role of assassin archetype)
The entire premise of the class is custom tailored to solo play. From the high mobility, to the ability to go invisible.

So you KNOW with absolute certainty that this what ANET intended? Show me somewhere where they say they intended the class to be able to roam at will and “assassinate” people. Seems like they intended them to be able to steal abilities from stealth…not be overpowered roaming gankers.

Just because you think they should be assassins does not make it so.

For all you know they want everyone to have to run around in zergs. Seems like it since that is what 98% of WvW is right now.

Just hope they change it so you have to risk as much running around solo as much as everyone else has to someday instead of having easy mode solo.

Archonis.7249:

Kolly.9872:

I always kill thieves.. on my thief the majority of them suck

Also, if you are going solo and crying about 1v1’s in WvW. Then you are bad and making worse decisions. Sorry, has to be said. WvW is about small and large groups working together dynamically to take the map. Not Rambo running around and killing the Sheriff’s Department in Hope, Washington.

Protip: going in WvW solo, you;re going to have a bad time. (especially against thieves)

So why are there so many thieves running around apparently able to play Rambo? Lots and lots of thieves running around solo. Why is that? Why is that fair?

Why do they NOT have to run in small and large groups like every other class?

If I had to pay to play the game I would have already canceled my subscription. And unless something is done soon about thieves I will soon quit playing. The main reason I play GW2 is because ofWvW. IMO, thieves are ruining WvW.

The ones who keep defending the class and say they are fine are delusional. Do you really think there would be so many threads complaining about them if they were fine? How many have been closed that you can’t see at the moment? Bet a lot more would be if it wasn’t for Christmas and a lot of mods are probably on vacation.

Whether the fix is as simple as fixing culling I do not know. But if culling can’t be fixed, and it completely takes a redesign of the class to fix them until they can fix culling….well then that is what they need to do.

DAOC stealth was basically permanent. But any damage would pop you out of stealth. If you had a DOT on you, you couldn’t restealth. Archer classes could spec with realm ranks to detect stealthers which could help a lot with countering them. You moved very slow while stealthed which made it challenging to get in position to attack. Assassin classes had to get right next to players to use positionals to attack and this often allowed you to be seen a split second before you could attack. None of this hit a button to transport you 600, 1220 units or whatever. It took a lot more skill basically than GW2 thieves IMO except for the permanent stealth.

Make it so any damage to them pops them out of stealth. If they have a condition on them, they can’t restealth. Make most it so they move like 2/3 normal speed while stealthed. They have to be within 20 units to use any attack from stealth. Give a chance to see stealther if close enough so they small window to attack or move. Allow rangers to spec to detect them stealthed. Maybe a pet ability. Or make a pet they can charm that excels at hunting them. Reduce burst damage overall but especially against opponents who spec high in toughness. All kinds of thing they COULD do since it seems they will never fix the culling problem. If they could, they already would have.

Rednik.3809:

FourTwenty.4268:

quoting so more people read this intelligent man’s thoughts on the subject. there’s too much QQing, this post needs more attention

I can sum up his post in more compact view.
1) Stay here and swing your weapon, thief surely will be stay infront of you and die from laugh. And if you trow some aoe, you instagib him in no time, regardless of his position. Thief still alive? U bad bro, go roll bunker guardian.
2) Use channeled skills. Even melee weapons have ton of them, just launch some 100b combo, thief will be automatically pulled and slaughtered. Thief still alive? U very bad bro, go roll bunker guardian.
3) Survive initial burst and bam, autowin. And you better be bunker guardian, just in case.
4) Go somewhere else, with less thieves around. And take bubble of bunker guardians with you, this game is all about teamplay. Also, you can roll a thief.
5) If some thief kill you regardless of your class, build and skill, it’s fine, he just run with some very clever spec. Try to roll bunker guardian.
6) Still losing? It’s all Anet fault, blame them, not thief. Anyway, bunker Guardian still available.

That is too funny! And it perfectly sums up what most thieves say in response to criticism of their class. Except for the NON delusional ones who can admit the class is has issues and it needs to be fixed.

pigtaro.2749:

Hmmm, that might explain why I have nv been killed by thief before as I have not moved out of my spawn area yet.

At first I was like, ’wow…never been killed by a thief on your ranger?" Then I read the last sentence. LoL

FourTwenty.4268:

RedOwl.7496:

So Stiv, why is it fair that thieves don’t have to be such awesome elite players to easily kill victims in PvP/WvW, yet the rest of us have to be to have some chance of beating of them?

You can pretend that thieves are face roll easy to play, but maybe if you actually tried instead of crying, you’d know this already.

http://www.gamebreaker.tv/video-game-shows/massive-dps/

video talking about the glass cannon backstab build and Taugrim says . . .

“This setup puts out MASSIVE amounts of DPS but takes a lot of skill execute properly”

so go on and keep the QQ going, it only shows how much of a baddie you really are

I will be the first to say I am just an average player. But how does complaining about an overpowered class and the problems it is causing in WvW and PvP make me a baddie?

Sorry my ego is not big as your appears to be. But you should look around and get out of your apparent state of denial about the problems that exist with the thief class.

How many threads do you see calling for nerfs to other classes compared to thieves.? Same for threads about people quitting due to thieves. Threads about people sick of them compared to other classes? Why do you think that is?

Taugrim’s opinion, and apparently yours, that thieves take a lot of skill to play does not make it so. My opinion is it takes a LOT more skill to avoid thieves or kill them than it takes for thieves to catch and kill others. This is fair? I bet more would agree with me on that than you.

Why don’t you roll something considered underpowered, like maybe a ranger, and go out and play against thieves and keep track of how many fights you win against them and how many you lose. And how hard you have to work to try to beat them compared to how hard they have to work to kill you. Come back after a week of doing it and let me know if you can be honest about it. Since you are such an awesome player and know how thieves work, it should be easy for you. Shouldn’t be frustrating at all to play against them since you think they are so well balanced and fair.

Stiv.1820:

Clicks has been awesome since Microsoft stole the mouse from Apple but sometimes going backwards is actually better.

To be fair Steve Jobs basically stole the mouse idea and GUI from Xerox RARC. If Xerox had realized what they had and if they had the vision of a Steve Jobs, the history of computing would be a lot different than it is now.

So Stiv, why is it fair that thieves don’t have to be such awesome elite players to easily kill victims in PvP/WvW, yet the rest of us have to be to have some chance of beating of them?

I just don’t get how anyone who plays a thief can think the way things are now is in anyway fair. Thieves can run around and roam at will picking and choosing who and when to fight. Usually escape when things don’t go their way. Most of the rest of classes do not have that luxury with the possible exception of a D/D Ele.

This seems fair and ok to you and other thieves?

Great post and agree with most.

Dynamic balancing of population is sorely needed. It should not be so easy to zerg whole maps in such a short time. And it should be easier to defend fully upgraded keeps/tower with a small force.

Add more rewards for taking a keep/tower such as a chest. And same, if not more so, for defending. A chance for something rare that can only be obtained would be nice…but could be something as simple as siege blueprints. Sorry….I HATE jumping puzzles and I am frugal. Tired of spending hard earned coin on siege.

Best use would be to kill, then toss their rotting corpse into a treb and launch it into an enemy keep or tower.

Bananasmile.4126:

I don’t disagree with nerfs and balancing, but all these suggestions of haters are geared towards destroying the profession…and what’s funny is, they’re not even aware of it…because they don’t know how a thief works…..

Hey Banana, you didn’t answer why you think I should have to spend a lot of my time learning how to kill a thief when thieves apparently do not have to do the same to kill other classes. Why are other classes supposed to have to take like a college class or something to kill you…..yet all you do probably is hit: Steal, then Cloak and Dagger, then hit backstab and then pick up your loot.

Read thru the forums. How many threads to you see calling for nerfs, complaints about thieves? Now how many do you see about other classes? Do the math. Now why do you think there are so many ‘anti thief’ threads? Because they are designed well and balanced? Because so many enjoy fighting them? I think not.

Whatever nerfs have been done wasn’t enough. Sorry. Time to get your head out of the sand and open your eyes. Someday ANET will open their eyes hopefully and easy mode will be over.

Bananasmile.4126:

@ Victoitor – Each build has its PRO and CONS, I have a question for you whiners, how much time and dedication did you actually put in in order to figure out thieves??? Did you even try running one in order to get better understanding?

Why is it that thieves think other classes should have to play a thief, watch videos, go to school or whatever to figure out how to beat them? How much time to thieves have to spend playing other classes to figure out how to beat them? All they really have to do is figure out which classes give them trouble or are too hard to kill and either avoid them or run away.

All most good thieves have to do is walk up and hit 3 or 4 buttons and kill someone. Rest of us are supposed to always be on extreme alert and hope like hell our reaction times are in nanoseconds, there is no lag, and thief renders so we can attack. And we are supposed to cover inch of ground for 6 square miles around us with AOE to try to kill them. Better luck buying a lottery ticket sometimes. Why are other classes supposed to have to work so hard to kill a thief? Why should a thief not have to do the same?

Why do you think it is fair for thieves to so easily pick and choose who they want to fight while most other classes cannot do the same? One class is supposed to be able to roam and kill at will while every other class is supposed to travel in zergs only and feel like a sheep in a herd? This seems fine to you?

KyleQuest.4639:

Honestly, when a game is being sold around PvP and WvW, they shouldn’t have added any stealth or illusions. I really question the morality and virtues of the design team on many levels, this especially. I’d rather face my enemy and brawl for 3-5 minutes than these tissue paper characters we have now. Honestly, how long is your average 1v1 fight?

I had a great one Rifle Warrior vs Rifle Warrior fight last night in EB. We downed each other at the same time. Then both popped Vengeance and went at it more. I was the victor by the smallest margin. THAT was fun and honorable.

Well said! This is the kind of fights that most people want to have. Unless you are a griefer type of playing who gets their sadistic jollies killing basically killing players who cannot fight back. How can they enjoy it otherwise? It must be like running around killing white chickens, rats, and cats or whatever. How can you be proud of your accomplishments playing such an overpowered class?

And you know the players who are victims of thieves certainly don’t like dying to thieves…especially when don’t get a chance to fight back. We will never know, but I bet there are hundreds who quit the game or stopped doing PvP or WvW because of one class. How can this be good for the long term health of the game?

Catisa.6507:

Only in Anet land does a class who is stealthed move FASTER while trying to avoid detection, the reality is they have it kitten backwards. Someone trying to hide in shadows and avoid detection should be moving very slow, not insanely fast.

It almost seems the dev team plays thieves as their ‘main’ character sometimes doesn’t it? Mindboggling they actually buffed their ability to escape instead of reducing it.

Dimeschemo.5493:

Sick of db being called cheaters ive bee up till 5 in the morning and none cheated

btw yall do knwo when u make a biug report u can printscreen

That is a silly statement to make about “none cheated.” So you play 24 hours a day and are able to see what every player on your server is doing in every borderland?

I certainly don’t know of anyone cheating on my server. If I see someone doing it I would report them. But I would not be the slightest bit surprised that someone was cheating. EVERY server usually has some cheaters/hacker. No idea how you can be so certain yours does not.

More and more thieves everyday seems to me. I hope more and more people DO start playing them. I encourage everyone who is sick of them to roll one. Keep playing them for the next few months. When over 1/2 the WvW population are thieves, THEN maybe ANET will wake up and realize their previous nerfs have not went far enough. Maybe nerfs are not the answer. Redesign the class if necessary! I don’t care but do something soon.

It all comes down to fun. Everyone enjoys a good fight where things go back and forth and you never know who is going to win until the last blow. Even if you lose those can be fun. But does anyone really enjoy fighting a thief? IMO, it is NOT fun. Especially when almost dead before you get a chance to MAYBE do something before they kill you. And fighting groups of them is even less fun.

Thieves are taking the fun out of WvW. That is the problem for a lot of players. It is like they designed the class for griefers. Enjoying killing players over and over who can’t fight back effectively is griefing IMO. If they gave them a button that would kill everyone in a borderland instantly every five minutes, some of the thief players would push it over and over every 5 minutes even if it killed their own server mates.

These players are not looking for balance nor do they care about ruining other players fun. They just want to ‘PWN!’

LieutenantGoogle.7326:

stinkypants.8419:

Folks should upgrade what they can afford if they can and move on.

lol ok, lets see everyone go with that mentality and NEVER EVER upgrade anything.

That is EXACTLY what will happen as the game goes on. People are going to quit upgrading unless they make some changes

You have to spend a ridiculous amount of coin to have any chance to defend against a large zerg. And it all becomes useless you have some really dedicated players who like to defend. And those sort of players seem to be becoming more rare every day. Why defend when you can just ride the karma train instead?

I rarely waste my coin on upgrades anymore. If you think it is fine as it is…well you keep right on wasting yours.

A fully upgraded tower/keep with lots of siege should be a scary thing to attack even for a large 60+ zerg. But right now it is not. Might slow them a little but that is about it.

Create a high burst DPS class AND give them stealth. What were they thinking?

High burst DPS always causes balance issues and player complaints with any game with PvP. Stealth classes always cause balance issues and lot of player complaints in any game with PvP. So they make a class with both!

Yet Devs keep making the same mistakes and never seem to learn from other game developers mistakes. I guess they think they are better or smarter or something and can make them ‘balanced.’

Here is an idea for you Anet: Don’t have any stealth classes in your next MMO unless it is single player only.

Clark Skinner.4902:

OMG I hate this. I ask them to turn it off, but they never do.

I don’t know how it doesn’t drive them nuts, they have to hear it more than I do.

Glad to hear I am not the only one bothered by this. I have actually left a city to find another merchant or whatever just to get away from it for some peace and quiet.

It is almost like they are doing it to ‘grief’ the players on their own server.