Guild Wars 2

People here are talking about just timing it correctly. While that is how you use it to the greatest effect, you’re right; it’s a very weak elite. I’m really not sure why they nerfed it, since it already seemed relatively weak compared to Thieves Guild or (the situational, but oh-so-entertaining) Dagger Storm. That nerf came straight out of left field, at least in my mind.

The build that tends to benefit the most from Basilisk Venom is Backstab burst, where the entire build is based around temporarily incapacitating your opponent and then quickly destroying their hopes and dreams. It’s also nice in venom-sharing builds, but those in and of themselves tend to be lackluster (at least to me).

I certainly don’t want to mock, but P/P is often snubbed, and rightfully so: the weaponset has very little synergy, and is underpowered as a whole. Vital Shot leans towards condition builds (especially with fast bleed stacking of Sneak Attack), as does the (awful) Body Shot, but Unload is pretty much only valuable in Crit/Power builds. And while Black Powder provides a smoke combo field, the weaponset has no way to utilize that field to access stealth, and make the most out of the mainhand pistol.

If you want to use pistols, I would suggest either try a P/D caltrops build, which specialized in bleed stacking—it can be annoying and deceptively effective at protecting points—or the popular D/P Backstab build. If you really like, you could also try S/P. It’s not as popular as the other pistol weaponsets, but it’s solid enough to be viable.

It’s nice in PvP for that situation where a Ranger or a Necro or some other chicken is trying to snipe you from the top of a wall. Scorpion Wire solves that problem real quick, and provides them with a nasty shock when they’re suddenly nose-to-nose with you.

However, Thieves Guild includes a Scorpion Wire as part of the package, as well as a Thief with Unload. So while Scorp Wire is fun, other utilities just seem to have more to offer.

I’m on pins and needles, waiting for rage.

Volrath.1473:

If you believe otherwise good lick convincing the devs!

Do you think bad licks could convince them, if they’re done with enough passion?

bhagwad.4281:

Seryi.7936:

or in full glass.

Being in glass doesn’t justify downing in half a second. It’s happened many times in sPvP. 3 seconds I can understand. Less than one? No way.

A GC spec justifies being downed in a second because the defense and vitality that would have prevented it is what you sacrificed for your damage. And that’s fine. But running GC and then complaining that you can’t survive bursts is asking to have your cake and eat it, too.

From the 14th december update notes:
“[Thieves] can be very fragile if you counter their stealth with area of effects or large stacks of conditions, but they trade this fragility in order to have some of the highest burst damage in the game…”

bhagwad.4281:

But this isn’t about ridiculous burst damage. It’s about stealth allowing thieves to reset fights where they should have rightly died.

It’s also about being able to solo 5 people (even if they’re bad players). No other class can do that. Noone should be able to do that. 5 people should always always be able to beat a single player no matter how talented.

Dual and I both already addressed that Elementalists can do the same thing. As can a Ranger, Mesmer, Engineer, or Warrior of the right skill build and skill level.

And ArenaNet has already said that Thieves, out of all the classes, are supposed to be able to dictate the pace of fights—which includes retreating if things aren’t going their way.

From an interview (http://kotaku.com/5780900/the-guild-wars-2-thief-is-a-rogue-like-none-other):
“The wise Thief player will know when to retreat and recharge.”
“…the Thief is built around hopping in-and-out of combat. If you don’t know when to back off, you’re going to die.”

bhagwad.4281:

phor.7952:

bhagwad.4281:

What I said was that no matter what the class, no other profession can solo five people regardless of skill level on either side. No single person should be able to harass a group of 5 people no matter how unskilled they are.

Because it’s impossible to become five times more skilled than even the noobest character. I’ll take a team with 15 poor players against 5 of the top notch pros in the world any day.

Whether you like it or not, including “no matter how skilled” in your argument is an admission that you’re referencing bad players because the only evidence presented showing a single person taking on 5 people has been a good thief against really bad players.

I would COMPLETELY agree that it would be OP if a thief were able to take out 5 good players. Hell, even 2 good players is a stretch as long as they’re not geared berserker and get caught off guard.

But the evidence presented only proves that a thief is “OP” against bad players.
And you simply can’t balance a game around bad players. It’s a waste of time.

You can certainly balance against bad players when there are enough of them. The fact remains that no class other than thief can kill 5 bad players solo. They can at most try and run or down one or two before dying themselves.

Yeah, I also have to disagree. I’ve seen Elementalists, Rangers, Mesmers, Engineers, and Warriors accomplish that same feat.

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Rusc.4978:

However, ArenaNet needs to fix the fact that some professions require a target to use their downed skills, and some don’t. That’s ridiculously unfair.

That and the fact that you can’t actually aim even the untargeted abilities unless you have a target since your character won’t turn otherwise.
Also it’s not exactly comparable to Elixir S since that requires burning a utility (a stunbreaker no less) while a thief can CnD for stealth which makes them immune to 2 profession’s downed interrupt (Necro/Ranger) and nearly immune due to no turning to 2 more (Engineer/Warrior).

I was comparing the situations themselves more than ease of access to the stomps. The invulnerability stomp provides that player with an enormous advantage in a team environment—which is all PvP setups aside from duels. Even if you see your teammate about to get stomped, its nigh impossible to stop it.

If you see a Thief go into stealth above a downed teammate, you can oftentimes stop the Thief in question by walking over to the area and swinging your weapon around. This usually forces them to withdraw from the downed player and heal, if they don’t get downed themselves.

TheMightyAltroll.3485:

So instead of actually proving that Thieves aren’t OP that stealth isn’t an OP mechanic, you just go “All those players are just bad, and need to l2p”

Sure. In WvW, I’ve seen entire parties of thieves separate and eliminate Zergs. Not possible on any other class. In PvP their only OPness comes from stealth stomps/ressing and incredibly high damage bow/pistol capability (Good thieves, anyway)

That probably depends on the zerg. An “entire party” of Eles, Warriors, Engineers, or Guardians would be nothing to sneeze at, either.

In PvP, the shortbow certainly isn’t useless damage, but its main focus is utility/movement (or glory farming in hotjoin). “Incredibly high” damage is far more easily achieved with a dagger or even sword.

For “incredibly high” pistol damage, I’m not sure what you’re referring to. The damage of P/P Unload spam—really the only reason to use P/P—can be accomplished with pretty much any other spike. Mainhand pistol alone stacks damage through Vital Shot/Sneak Attack bleeds, which are easily shed by most heals. Offhand pistol is really just straight CC.

And a note on stealth stomps: I find Engineer invulnerability stomps far worse. If a Thief stealths over someone’s downed body, it’s pretty obvious what’s about to happen. However, ArenaNet needs to fix the fact that some professions require a target to use their downed skills, and some don’t. That’s ridiculously unfair.

Einlanzer.1627:

Adaneshade.2409:

I see no reason why every weapon couldn’t be made available to every class with a flavor twist to make them unique to each.

While I’m not at all opposed to this possibility, I’m definitely more interested in seeing all new weapons types trickle in first. The following all need to be in the game at some point:

Martial Staves
Claws/Knuckles
Whips
Tomes
Polearms
Greataxes
Scythes
Sigils

Combat gets a little stale in this game mostly due to how few options there really are for a lot of professions. Each profession should have several more options than it currently does, and at some point the should discuss having 3 sets you can switch between.

I like the concept here (I’d actually like to see the Dervish class come back, let alone scythes and other weapon options), but I’m actually happy without 3 set-swapping. For one, it would put Eles and Engineers in an awkward spot since they can’t swap weapons at all, so that would need to be taken into account. It would also require a lot of skill or cooldown overhauling, never mind the major shift in how every class acts in combat, and trying to predict the behavior of other players when you have to think about all of their weapon combos.

Not to rain on your parade, but I’m personally okay without that headache.

TheMightyAltroll.3485:

Adaneshade.2409:

TheMightyAltroll.3485:

Oh, and the fact that every thief on the planet spams either Heartseeker, DeathBlossom, or Pistolwhip (This not so much after the nerf) as though they make a thousand dollars every click of the same overused worn out button. I kind of want to see how many Thief mainers have their ‘2’ key completely disintegrated.

Shouldn’t use absolutes like “every”, it just weakens your entire argument. S/D, for instance, is a very popular setup, as is P/D; neither of which even have those abilities you claim EVERY thief spams.

In fact, you’d be hard pressed to find a single thief in high tier PvP that spams any ability as it’s purely a ticket to an kitten whooping vs opponents with IQ’s higher than that of a brick.

Hi, I play high tier PvP.

I see heartseeker. Alot.

I see Deathblossom. Alot.

I also see Thieves guild. Alot.

Does it mean that my team loses to it? Generally no, despite backstab -> heartseeker being so strong. It’s just overused, and I wouldn’t mind seeing more diversity in Thief so that I might actually pick one up again and not have to rely on 2-2-2-2-2-2-2-2-2-2 or some other nonsensical skill.

I’d like to mention that you see HS a lot because it’s used as a key part of two different setups (D/D and D/P)—but, to be fair, HS spam is one of my pet peeves because it makes all Thief players look like idiots.

You see Thieves’ Guild because it’s pretty much the only viable elite in small-scale PvP. Dagger Storm is far more situational, and Basi Venom is pretty much laughable now.

When I see a Thief spamming DB, I laugh at them as they blow all of their initiative on my dodges…and then I kill them.

A note on the “OPness” of Thieves:

As a Thief, I have a lot of problems playing a Backstab build. Part of this is due to the fact that I’m one of the very few S/D Thieves in PvP, so I’m not as familiar with Backstab. But most of the reason is that other players—even in hotjoin—know how to react to a Backstab build. It really is, as someone previously commented, a “one-trick pony.” You burst and you gtfo, and there’s not a lot of wiggle room in between those two goals.

S/D, on the other hand, is a blast (and I do much better on it). Partly because S/D is more forgiving of my idiocy with all of the mobility, but it’s also because other players just don’t know how to react. I can evade and immobilize pretty much at will, and that takes most people (especially inexperienced ones) off-guard.

In my opinion, the only people who truly think Thieves are crazily overpowered are players that aren’t very familiar with the class or mechanics. If Thieves destroy you, try making one and try running a BS build in hotjoin. You’ll figure out the limitations of it pretty quick.

I’d be bananas excited to see Thieves get a staff. I’d also be one of the first in line to try it out. The proposals given so far sound they would sync decently well with sword weaponsets, too, which is always nice.

Victory.2879:

So, let me get this straight- a skill that MIGHT inflict 44% of their life in 2-3 seconds is way OP and MUST be nerfed, because some people can’t realise they have it on them and don’t stop attacking during that period?

Mug/steal can do that damage FROM STEALTH in ONE hit with no chance of seeing it coming and no way to block it (unless u happen to have a block up at the time), followed immediately by more auto spammed macro’d skills and back into stealth to finish you off, so you can’t even use downed skills.

I’d just like to point out that comparing Confusion to Mug is comparing apples and oranges, since Mug is a used as a burst skill and Confusion is a passive condition.

This is my favorite forums thread in the history of forums and threads.

I foresee a significant Mug nerf coming. In bygone days, I would’ve actually been okay with this, but given the pile of other nerfs we’ve taken, I hope it doesn’t happen.

However, it probably will. And they’ll also probably just remove Basilisk Venom from the game, since it’s pretty useless now anyways.

Problems that I noticed:
The “D/P direct damage build by Authority” is showing up as D/D.
The “condition counter build by Authority” is showing up as a bad link.

Other than those, looks good so far. I didn’t go through every single link because some of those playstyles aren’t to my taste, but it’s always nice to see what other people do with S/D.

Doomdesire.9365:

If they removed pistol number #2 skill I wouldn’t even care. It sucks.

Shadow trap is underrated though IMO. It’s great dealing with multiple enemies and is even better if you run S/D. The whole infiltrators strike/shadowstep/shadowtrap/steal will really confuse them.

“There he is!”
“No wait, he’s behind us!”
“Oh crap, now he’s in the distance!”
Gets randomly backstabbed

You can’t Backstab people with a sword mainhand. xD

But more to the point of your post, I also love teleporting around with S/D to confuse people, and it’s great for psuedo-kiting. However, I think it can be managed just fine without Shadow Trap. The skill feels clunky to me, especially in comparison to using Infiltrator’s Strike, Shadowstep, or Infiltrator’s Signet.

swinsk.6410:

We need our stealth time to match our auto-attack chain!

I always thought that’s why you chose 3s attack time because with every weapon set it was very easy to determine when to stealth. Finish you auto-chain stealth.

Now, it feels wierd because stealth falls in the middle of attacks and it feels so stupid and clunky to play a thief right now.

For D/d or D/p in PvP, I’d recommend testing some of the combos listed in this thread: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Thief-Rotation-Adaptations

For PvE, I typically play S/D. With that weaponset, I haven’t felt the timing change to be that much of an adaptability issue.

I use 5 Superior Rune of the Scholar and 1 Superior Rune of Divinity. In my opinion, the (6) rune effect for Scholar is a little too situational, especially for a class as squishy as the Thief. The extra critical damage is always useful, too, as well as the slight bump to all stats.

For sigils, I use Superior Fire in my sword, Superior Accuracy in my dagger, and Superior Bloodlust in my shortbow. For D/P or D/D, I’d probably use Superior Air instead of Fire, since it’s concentrated single-target damage.

Copy/paste this link into your bar:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fYEQNAsYVlYmCOHdy9E95Ex2jdKUe69gsjNsaFoJA;T0Ag0Cno4ywloGLXOukctgYYxpgHBTCA

I play this in PvE and PvP, both hotjoin and tournaments. I still toy with it occasionally, but I certainly enjoy it. It’s also a fairly tanky setup with all the evasion, stunbreaks, and condition removal, especially considering it has nothing in SA or Acro. However, an unexpected burst will still kill you.

My utilities are Signet of Agility for extra condition removal and endurance (alternatively Signet of Shadows or the speed boost/aoe blind), Shadowstep for mobility and condition removal, and Shadow Refuge for rezzing (alternatively Haste for a better burst or for quickness finishing).

We should probably try to keep the conversation focused on this community, not Blizzard’s. Plus, if we’re going to turn this into another one of those Blizzard vs. ArenaNet discussions, I’ll need a few moments to make popcorn.

I’m asking the developers for more interaction (or at least, more varied interaction) because it is something I would like to see implemented—which is, I imagine, the point of most forums posts.

I’ve already given my opinion and thoughts in this thread, and at this point I am just repeating myself over and over again. If you find it outrageous, that’s fine, but obviously I don’t. And, despite what the responses to my posts seem to imply, I’m not the only person who feels this way about the devs on the forums (or this thread never would have been created).

Kaimick.5109:

Your not a paying customer, you do not pay a monthly fee to play the game or sign up on the forums. You paid for the game, the money you spent was for the game. The support and the forums and the added content they give you is free.

While I do not pay a monthly fee, I am indeed a paying customer; I still paid for the game, and the accompanying forums access. Therefore, I paid to sign up on the forums. While I am still obliged to follow the Code of Conduct—and I have no problems with that—this gives me the right to post whatever or however I see fit within those boundaries.

My opinions may not agree with yours, but I’m still allowed to post them. I have not made any demands or personally attacked/called out any of the devs; I’m simply commenting about what I’d like to see done in the future, which they may or may not choose to act on.

Kaimick.5109:

You apparently don’t get the jist, Arena Net doesn’t comment unless they are sure. Secondly saying why do you feel that way, is a waste of time, if you sit there and watch a thread for 10 post you can find out why people feel that way.

I don’t believe it’s a waste of time, and a lot of posters don’t go into the reasoning for their opinions. That aside, I just listed that specific quote as an example of the kind of conversational tone I would expect.

Kaimick.5109:

To your comment about a post having 75 pages those are usually the most current ones and there are older ones that already have a moderator or a dev saying," this is working as intended.

Yes, and that’s excellent. There are also older ones that have no dev feedback, but that’s not the entire issue to me.

Kaimick.5109:

Not that I have a accurate number on this but I would say at least 85% of the moderators and Dev’s have at least 150+ pages of comments you can view. So your telling me you read through each and everyone of those?

Why would I? I peruse the Dev Tracker for topics I’m actually interested in, like I imagine most people do that follow the Dev Tracker. I can still see what kind of topics they’re posting in by reading the topic titles. My list of commonly commented-on dev topics in one of my previous posts wasn’t exhaustive, but it also wasn’t meant to be; I was just noting the trends that I’ve seen.

Kaimick.5109:

Like someone else said, it is a developers choice to come on and say something, not your right to demand or even ask for it. The moderator on this thread alone already said that each Suggestion/ thread on the forums is read and brought to the dev’s. That right there is your confirmation that the dev’s are reading it. If you need some sort of comfort words to make you feel at ease then I am sorry, but get over your self. There are many reasons as to why they do not directly answer

It is the developers’ choice, and they certainly do not have to listen to my request, but as a paying customer, it is still my request to make. I never said that I expected or demanded a response, so I don’t know where you guys are getting that from.

I’m simply saying that I’d like the devs to expand more on activity they already do, which I find neither selfish nor rude. I’m not asking them to give specific answers or dates, or dedicate X amount of time, or comment on Y topics. I’d just like to see a wider variety of feedback on some different types of posts.

marnick.4305:

Rusc.4978:

marnick.4305:

Rusc.4978:

Also, I have checked up on the Dev Tracker from time to time, and if I was satisfied with what I saw there, then I wouldn’t have taken the time to add my thoughts to this thread. Most of what I see on the Dev Tracker are a select few threads that get a ton of dev feedback—mostly threads about billing/purchasing errors, login and disconnect problems, hacking, and player misconduct. There were also a lot of posts where CCs are deleting unproductive comments or closing threads. But as Essence Snow has said, “the major [threads] really seem to lack in any communication,” and those are the places where I’d like to see it.

Except, that isn’t “dev” feedback but support and community management. I’m a support engineer myself for a mid-size firm. Whenever a customer asks to speak with a developer, I simply tell them that’s impossible.
Mind you, customer in my case means multi-million contract instead of 60 euro videogame. These are multi-million clients featured in every magazine have no problem accepting that.

GW2 is basically a complicated game of cops and robbers for adults. The people on this board apparently can’t accept what I just said to a very big name featured at least ten times in an average household. Seriously …

Wat.

Jeffrey Vaughn, Robert Hrouda, Johnathan Sharp, Roy Cronacher, and Habib Loew are Content Designers, Game Designers, and/or Programmers at ArenaNet. Colin Johanson is the Game Director.

All of these people have accounts on the forums, and they actively participate in forum commentary. Without pointing fingers, some of their commentary is what I was referring to in my previous posts. I think that qualifies as “dev feedback,” and those names don’t include the community-targeted roles, which (in my mind) also qualify as devs for the purposes of the forums.

These people are already active, so that isn’t even the issue at hand. I’d simply like to see commentary in a wider variety of threads.

That’s their privilege to give, not your right to ask.

These guys are extremely time-pressured. Every minute they have is valuable, and every forum post is essentially wasted time. I would expect them to not post at all, but I’m happy they manage to find the time to answer a few key questions. All others are handled by the CC staff. That’s how any company works … How often did you see Bill Gates or Steve Jobs posting on the MS/Apple forums?

Actually, I do have the right to ask, since I paid for the game and therefore the account on the forums. I’m obviously not entitled to have my requests granted, but I as someone with an account on the forums, I am allowed to make those requests so long as I abide by the Code of Conduct—which I have.

I also just wanted to mention that the MS/Apple forums are a completely different creature than these forums. That’s comparing Apples and oranges (lolpuns).

From a general game standpoint, I’d like to see initiative operate on a sliding scale of regeneration: the less initiative you have, the slower it naturally regenerates. I think this would help curb general spamming, without terribly affecting players who play from a steady damage standpoint and already manage their initiative use. However, that’s just my opinion.

As others have stated, I’d like to see a 2% Steal recharge reduction instead of 1%. Also, I think Mug damage nerf (20-30%) is appropriate, or make it never crit but give it a higher damage ratio. I would prefer this over adding bleeds, since that would reduce Mug’s effectiveness in PvE (at least to me), specifically dungeons where you see a lot of conditions capping.

I also think Basilisk Venom should not activate with Mug, and should be reverted back to it’s previous version of being an unbreakable stun (considering it’s only 1.5 seconds).

I’d like to see Dancing Dagger’s initiative cost dropped to 3, since the damage was cut by half in previous nerfs. I also agree that Heartseeker’s initiative should be upped to 4, and perhaps make it an evade as well (since it already looks like an evading animation). This would put it about on par with Disabling Shot.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Stealth-finishers-need-to-go/page/2#post1678411

That thread is 2 pages long, and this “issue” was already discussed ad nauseum there.

Reading is awesome.

marnick.4305:

Rusc.4978:

Also, I have checked up on the Dev Tracker from time to time, and if I was satisfied with what I saw there, then I wouldn’t have taken the time to add my thoughts to this thread. Most of what I see on the Dev Tracker are a select few threads that get a ton of dev feedback—mostly threads about billing/purchasing errors, login and disconnect problems, hacking, and player misconduct. There were also a lot of posts where CCs are deleting unproductive comments or closing threads. But as Essence Snow has said, “the major [threads] really seem to lack in any communication,” and those are the places where I’d like to see it.

Except, that isn’t “dev” feedback but support and community management. I’m a support engineer myself for a mid-size firm. Whenever a customer asks to speak with a developer, I simply tell them that’s impossible.
Mind you, customer in my case means multi-million contract instead of 60 euro videogame. These are multi-million clients featured in every magazine have no problem accepting that.

GW2 is basically a complicated game of cops and robbers for adults. The people on this board apparently can’t accept what I just said to a very big name featured at least ten times in an average household. Seriously …

Wat.

Jeffrey Vaughn, Robert Hrouda, Johnathan Sharp, Roy Cronacher, and Habib Loew are Content Designers, Game Designers, and/or Programmers at ArenaNet. Colin Johanson is the Game Director.

All of these people have accounts on the forums, and they actively participate in forum commentary. Without pointing fingers, some of their commentary is what I was referring to in my previous posts. I think that qualifies as “dev feedback,” and those names don’t include the community-targeted roles, which (in my mind) also qualify as devs for the purposes of the forums.

These people are already active, so that isn’t even the issue at hand. I’d simply like to see commentary in a wider variety of threads.

Fred Fargone.3127:

Rusc.4978:

Fred Fargone.3127:

Rusc.4978:

I’m not asking for any kind of definitive answers of people’s questions or comments. I’d be happy just to see simple, conversational things, like “why do you think that way?” or “yes, this feature is working as intended, but we are always trying to improve the game and the player experience.” This at least tells me that they are indeed reading the threads where people are pouring hours of their time and energy on the faint hope that a dev will see it. In a virtual ocean of comments, that’s a very faint hope indeed.

Doing that to every thread in suggestion forums alone would increase the total posts of the staff team by… Around 20 000. I do believe they have better things to do than that, especially if you actually wanted them to read the threads.

Then again, if they just went to every thread and used ctrl-v to throw “why do you think that way” in the thread, people still wouldn’t be happy, since it’s merely an automated message.

Nor was I asking for every staff member to contribute to/read every thread. And while I’m sure they do have projects to work on, they already contribute to the forums as part of their activities—they just don’t do it in places like some of the profession debates and mechanics discussions, where a lot of people really strive to receive feedback.

The devs picking 1-3 “virgin” threads a week (threads without the red ArenaNet commentary icon) and perusing them for a few minutes before responding to a comment that caught their eye isn’t asking for an enormous extra commitment of time or effort, and it would help ease the “ignored” feeling in the community.

(Edit: Fixed some typos.)

So, pardon me if I misunderstood you, but you are feeling ignored because they are answering the topics some other people wanted to discuss about? Now, that is just selfish, don’t you agree?

No, nor is that what I said. I said that some parts of the community are feeling ignored. There are enormous threads on the forums that rack up 50+ or 75+ pages and get zero dev feedback. None. But other threads get high concentrations of feedback, and these threads are often repetitious in nature.

My suggestion/request is only that devs take a few minutes a week to peruse the forums, and comment on a few threads that they find worthwhile, preferably topics that have not received any dev feedback up to that point. I don’t think this is a selfish or overly-demanding request.

Fred Fargone.3127:

Rusc.4978:

I’m not asking for any kind of definitive answers of people’s questions or comments. I’d be happy just to see simple, conversational things, like “why do you think that way?” or “yes, this feature is working as intended, but we are always trying to improve the game and the player experience.” This at least tells me that they are indeed reading the threads where people are pouring hours of their time and energy on the faint hope that a dev will see it. In a virtual ocean of comments, that’s a very faint hope indeed.

Doing that to every thread in suggestion forums alone would increase the total posts of the staff team by… Around 20 000. I do believe they have better things to do than that, especially if you actually wanted them to read the threads.

Then again, if they just went to every thread and used ctrl-v to throw “why do you think that way” in the thread, people still wouldn’t be happy, since it’s merely an automated message.

Nor was I asking for every staff member to contribute to/read every thread. And while I’m sure they do have projects to work on, they already contribute to the forums as part of their activities—they just don’t do it in places like some of the profession debates and mechanics discussions, where a lot of people really strive to receive feedback.

The devs picking 1-3 “virgin” threads a week (threads without the red ArenaNet commentary icon) and perusing them for a few minutes before responding to a comment that caught their eye isn’t asking for an enormous extra commitment of time or effort, and it would help ease the “ignored” feeling in the community.

(Edit: Fixed some typos.)

bhagwad.4281:

The downed state adds another level of play. If the thief has 200 hp left he shouldn’t be able to stomp me. With stealth, he can. I can delay even invulnerable/stability players. But stealth is clearly something that’s akin to cheating.

Why shouldn’t he? He’s got 200 health, and you’re downed. If he can pull it off, then I’d say it’s a well-deserved victory.

Kaimick.5109:

This is your confirmation of the dev’s are not ignoring your suggestions

CC Dalmarus.8397:

The development team is sent feedback and suggestion reports from the Community team 5 days a week (sorry – even we need a little time off, haha). They are extremely busy working on the game, but come and answer posts when they can.

Keep the suggestions, feedback, thoughts, ideas, and constructive complaints ( ) coming so we have plenty to give them each day.

Again look at my first post here to see why they do not comment on every or even the creative ones

I read your post, and I understand some of your points, but you seem to be missing the gist of what I and several other people have said.

I’m not asking for any kind of definitive answers of people’s questions or comments. I’d be happy just to see simple, conversational things, like “why do you think that way?” or “yes, this feature is working as intended, but we are always trying to improve the game and the player experience.” This at least tells me that they are indeed reading the threads where people are pouring hours of their time and energy on the faint hope that a dev will see it. In a virtual ocean of comments, that’s a very faint hope indeed.

Also, I have checked up on the Dev Tracker from time to time, and if I was satisfied with what I saw there, then I wouldn’t have taken the time to add my thoughts to this thread. Most of what I see on the Dev Tracker are a select few threads that get a ton of dev feedback—mostly threads about billing/purchasing errors, login and disconnect problems, hacking, and player misconduct. There were also a lot of posts where CCs are deleting unproductive comments or closing threads. But as Essence Snow has said, “the major [threads] really seem to lack in any communication,” and those are the places where I’d like to see it.

Personally, I think it would be nice to see some kind of dev communication, just to know that they’re at least seeing the forums. There are threads that seem to get totally ignored, even though they are 50+ pages.

I understand that the forums are full of unproductive complaints, but people do have genuinely creative or interesting ideas. I’m sure that I’m not the only one who feels disheartened when it seems like the massive amount of feedback just isn’t being heard/seen when there is no Anet communication whatsoever.

Nightside.4715:

Malcastus.6240:

If you only like to mindlessly butcher other people in the simplest sense, then perhaps this game isn’t the best choice for you.

Why is it that every time someone complains about something “This isn’t the game for you”?

Because sometimes it isn’t the game for you. GW2 is a unique MMO, and some people play it while complaining that it’s not cookie-cutter. Some of the game aspects just require practice.

Larynx.2453:

Because they can’t think of any intelligent counter-arguments.

And counter-arguments were provided. If they weren’t ignored, they received responses along the lines of “the downed state has to go because I find it frustrating” and “I don’t like the downed state because I don’t know stomping tactics.” If aspects of the game were eliminated just because people didn’t like them or didn’t understand how to counter them, then the entire game would be comprised of Warriors running around trying to Hundred Blades one another. Thankfully, it doesn’t work like that.

Calae.1738:

Downed state rewards bad play.

When your health reaches zero, you’re invulnerable for a few seconds until you’re downed. While downed you can deal damage to a target. If that target goes down while you’re downed, you instantly revive.

No, only a death will revive downed players.

Calae.1738:

Some classes have interrupts while downed. Try to stomp a Thief or a Mesmer and record how much time it’ll take. Some classes buy themselves so much time to be revived that being downed isn’t even a liability to the team as long as they’ve accomplished what they were supposed to do.

Rangers, Guardians, Warriors, Engineers, and Necromancers all have interrupts. Thieves, Mesmers, and Eles do not, because they have some form of movement still and/or stealth. But being downed is still a liability to the team, regardless of what you’re doing. How much can you accomplish while you’re downed, exactly, that you couldn’t do easier or better while alive?

Calae.1738:

If I bring your health down to zero by blowing all my cooldowns; I still have to walk up to you in melee range and stun myself for 3 seconds to finish you off. Not only will my stomp be interrupted by the downed player but, I can also be interrupted by another player. Those interrupts can be carefully used to avoid overlap and remove my ability to stomp altogether.

What? It’s not a stun, it’s a cast time, and the stomp is essentially an insta-kill attack. It’s a choice that people make in order to speed up a kill, but of course you can interrupt it. Stomping would be ridiculous if you couldn’t.

Calae.1738:

Not only is the downed state not fun to watch but, for me, it’s not fun play. I would rather be dead. Why? Because if I knew that I would die once my health reached zero; I would play a lot more carefully and strategically. Knowing that I could revive myself and my friends can revive me creates a moral hazard. I’m actually willing to take risks knowing that even with bad play I can succeed.

You should already be playing carefully and strategically. Going down all the time and just expecting your teammates to save you is poor team behavior and a worse game mentality. Maybe, instead of suggesting the removal of a game facet—one that most people seem to be able to deal with—you should reevaluate your habits.

Calae.1738:

In my opinion; this is precisely the reason why it’ll never become an esport and why competitive players will never take it seriously.

If you’re going to pick on sPvP and talk about how bad it is, there are other, more pertinent problems you can choose. The downed state is a small issue compared to other things in the game right now, which is why I find the devolvement of this thread to be rather ridiculous.

Nightside.4715:

I understand it in PvE,it kind of makes sense.

However,so what you are saying is that every time i see more than 1 person coming at me,i should pull back,thus giving the enemy a point to capture?Even though,under normal circumstances i could win against both of them?

Actually, that’s pretty much the opposite of what I’ve been saying. If you can win against both of them, go for it. But if you can’t, then what good would it do to engage and lose, versus just coming back and capping the point once they’ve left?

Nightside.4715:

Also,the “finish them” always takes longer than it takes for the other to revive him,same with damg unless you are playing some uber damg type.(Maybe with warriors/mesmers/eles etc this works,but not with Rangers.

This has nothing to do with strategy.

Sometimes, but not always. And I’ve seen Rangers absolutely destroy downed players, as well as the players trying to res them. It has everything to do with strategy, and skill.

Nightside.4715:

Edit:Actually,the game allows you to spawn quickly anyways,why should you be given the chance to be “redeemed” .If you lost,you lost.

Why shouldn’t you? If you lost, you’d be dead. I agree that class skills are unbalanced, but the downed state (in principle) gives everyone a fair shake. There’s always the chance that you can outsmart other players, or that your teammates will save you.

Taril.8619:

If you’ve ever tried to kill something with Spear…

The #2 + #5 may give evades, but they do bugger all damage (#2 especially hates moving targets) doing less than just auto-attacking in the time it takes for the animations to finish.

The #3 requires enemies to attack you, and be in melee range (Not that common, especially since people shy away from melee underwater due to positioning and mobility issues)

The #4 has a very short range, meaning it’s practically melee (It also pulls you, knocking you down whilst doing nothing to the enemy whom has ~1 second of free time to either attack you or move away so you need to use it again)

Utilities a Thief can use underwater:

Signets
Venoms
Tricks

Signets being pretty terrible most of the time (I run 3 underwater though due to the lack of anything else worth while)

Venoms are only good in a venom orientated build, which is great if you play one but if you don’t you’re out of luck

Tricks have effects that are either unhelpful (Haste, considering how bad a lot of the attacks are underwater… The lack of dodges is also a hindrance) or on really high cooldowns (Roll for Initiative, Shadowstep, Haste)

Compared to other classes such as Necro:

1. Does high damage and provides vulnerability in an area
2. gives life siphoning in an area around you as well as swiftness
3. area pull enemies close (Synergises extremely well with #3 + #2)
4. similar pull that Thief gets just provides Bleeding instead of Cripple

Utilities a necro can use underwater
Minions (With 1 second shorter cast time)
Signets (Still not very good, but 1 second shorter cast time)
All but 1 Spectral skill
All but 1 Corruption skill (With lowered cast times)

I could go on about Elementalits masses of control underwater, Mesmers and their huge damage through mass confusion, Engineers with high burst damage, or even Warrior and Guardian’s high damage output with their weapons.

All other classes can still keep their survivability intact underwater (Necro’s still have DS, Mesmers have mass clones + Shatters, Ele’s have all their boons etc whilst Thieves lack any stealth underwater that isn’t Hide in Shadows which can be a big part of their defences)

I agree that the underwater utility choices are kitten -poor, but I kill people 1v1 or even 2v1 underwater without much issue on spear. The combination of blocks and evades is very hardy, and I crit on almost every attack. The only times I typically switch to harpoon gun are when my opponent is downed, and trying to swim away. >:)

In PvE at the moment, I actually run a build that is very similar to that.

Maybe this will make me sound like a n00blet, but I’m often on my shortbow in dungeons. I enjoy the on-demand evade, the poison/weakness field, and I think the blast finisher is priceless in any group. It doesn’t do as much single-target damage as a sword or dagger, but I find that the aoe damage is nothing to sneeze at.

Zinwrath.2049:

Rusc.4978:

Calae.1738:

Rusc.4978:

I think the principle of downed state is fine, I just think the execution needs a little work. The professions need better balance, as other people have stated, and some classes certainly have stronger downed states than others.

But everyone here seems to think that downed players do insane damage, and I haven’t seen that in sPvP. Downed is pretty much downed, and after you sit through the initial interrupt or the disappearing/movement skill, finishing an opponent is simple. If a downed player manages to outmaneuver you—an alive and attacking opponent—then props to them for surviving.

If you are outnumbered in PvP, fundamentally the odds aren’t any worse for you than they were initially. And, at times, you can still stomp people in an outnumbered situation, or even down the teammate that stopped to res them.

It’s highly unlikely that you could stomp someone in a situation where you are outnumbered. Even a thief who stealths is essentially stunned for the animation period and will get nailed hard.

Never mind the fact that 1 person can resurrect a downed player in less than 10 seconds but; that downed player can DPS and sometimes even fear, knockdown, immobilize while downed.

This game is asking that a player in a 1vs2 situation essentially run away for backup or troll around structures using line of sight.

What do you think is more exciting to watch? Someone owning 2 people or someone running away from 2 people?

Whether it’s unlikely or not is not the point, because that can can vary widely based on the situation. But I’ve done many stomps in situations where I was outnumbered—especially in stealth—and I’ve also seen them performed. Not to mention that I’ve been stomped by outnumbered opponents. Not everyone pays attention to their downed teammates.

And like I stated before, if you get CC’d by the downed skills, you just wait it out or stunbreak and then resume the finish.

Dealing with downed opponents requires a situational strategy, to be sure, but it’s certainly not impossible.

Edit: Also, if you’re having trouble completing a finish, you could just attack them to death. It accomplishes the same end.

downed state makes it harder to successfully fight 2on1 (or any outnumbered fight). This isnt even argueable. All i see is a lot of talk bouncing around the initial subject which is such. “Not everyone pays attention to their downed teammates.” what bad players do has no grounds in a discussion about balance. I could say its possible to win 4on1 because sometimes the enemys afk or never use their abilities….doesnt really prove anything.

Also
He never said it was IMPOSSIBLE to finish someone 1v2, it is simply highly unlikely given circumstances. Not everyone runs haste, not everyone can invis, not everyone has stability. And non of those garantee you will stomp the person(you can counter them all), or that those abilities will even be off cd (you may have used them to down the first guy). In a perfect ideal world maybe you have everything you need at that time, but most likely you wont. and “attack them to death” to finish someone off isnt usually going to work if the other guy is sitting there healing him.

I’m not allowed to use my own phrasing? I also mentioned that “whether it’s unlikely or not is not the point”—and it’s not. Being able to stealth and use Haste are helpful, but I’ve seen stomps without those. I typically make stomps without those, because I don’t like blowing my utilities to kill someone that’s already downed.

And if the other guy starts to heal him, you have three options: kill the downed player, if you can stomp in time or do enough damage; down the player trying to resurrect them; or, if you don’t think you can win in the situation, bail. Staying in a stale fight isn’t helping your team, and contrary to what some of the posts in this thread seem to be saying, PvP isn’t a matter of who can defeat who in a 1vX. It’s a game of strategy. If you’re not at a strategic advantage in a battle, you probably won’t win, downed state or no downed state, and if you’re dead or downed at all then you’re not helping your team.

Downed state and rallying are a part of the game in PvE, and there’s no reason that they wouldn’t exist in PvP. The downed state gives you a slim chance for redemption, and rallying is just another facet of gameplay that you have to keep in mind when you weigh the odds of a particular engagement.

Calae.1738:

Rusc.4978:

I think the principle of downed state is fine, I just think the execution needs a little work. The professions need better balance, as other people have stated, and some classes certainly have stronger downed states than others.

But everyone here seems to think that downed players do insane damage, and I haven’t seen that in sPvP. Downed is pretty much downed, and after you sit through the initial interrupt or the disappearing/movement skill, finishing an opponent is simple. If a downed player manages to outmaneuver you—an alive and attacking opponent—then props to them for surviving.

If you are outnumbered in PvP, fundamentally the odds aren’t any worse for you than they were initially. And, at times, you can still stomp people in an outnumbered situation, or even down the teammate that stopped to res them.

It’s highly unlikely that you could stomp someone in a situation where you are outnumbered. Even a thief who stealths is essentially stunned for the animation period and will get nailed hard.

Never mind the fact that 1 person can resurrect a downed player in less than 10 seconds but; that downed player can DPS and sometimes even fear, knockdown, immobilize while downed.

This game is asking that a player in a 1vs2 situation essentially run away for backup or troll around structures using line of sight.

What do you think is more exciting to watch? Someone owning 2 people or someone running away from 2 people?

Whether it’s unlikely or not is not the point, because that can can vary widely based on the situation. But I’ve done many stomps in situations where I was outnumbered—especially in stealth—and I’ve also seen them performed. Not to mention that I’ve been stomped by outnumbered opponents. Not everyone pays attention to their downed teammates.

And like I stated before, if you get CC’d by the downed skills, you just wait it out or stunbreak and then resume the finish.

Dealing with downed opponents requires a situational strategy, to be sure, but it’s certainly not impossible.

Edit: Also, if you’re having trouble completing a finish, you could just attack them to death. It accomplishes the same end.

As a non-Ranger, I don’t know enough about the pet revive to comment on the regular version. However—and I know how unpopular this opinion will be—the underwater pet super-revive needs to be fixed. Finishing people underwater is tedious enough without having a downed state that is invincible.

I think the principle of downed state is fine, I just think the execution needs a little work. The professions need better balance, as other people have stated, and some classes certainly have stronger downed states than others.

But everyone here seems to think that downed players do insane damage, and I haven’t seen that in sPvP. Downed is pretty much downed, and after you sit through the initial interrupt or the disappearing/movement skill, finishing an opponent is simple. If a downed player manages to outmaneuver you—an alive and attacking opponent—then props to them for surviving.

If you are outnumbered in PvP, fundamentally the odds aren’t any worse for you than they were initially. And, at times, you can still stomp people in an outnumbered situation, or even down the teammate that stopped to res them.

I main a Thief, and I’m fine with taking damage in stealth. However, I agree that channeling skills should stop channeling onto a stealthed player, considering that the target for that skill should be lost.

Channeled skills should continue forward in a straight path instead of tracking a stealthed player. If you don’t at least move sideways, there’s no reason you shouldn’t get hit like with any other damaging skills, but I agree that they shouldn’t continue to follow you.

Daecollo.9578:

Why are you using worthless SoM over withdraw?

Signet of Malice is a signet, while Withdraw is not. The traits Signet Use and Signets of Power are both suggested with SoM in mind.

On the thread where this was originally talked about, Withdraw was suggested as an alternative that provided an extra evade.

Edit: Also, I think this build actually gives SoM more utility. It’s not as conventional as the other two heals, but I don’t think it’s completely worthless. If it got buffed in a future update though, I surely wouldn’t complain.

ensoriki.5789:

You have to copy & paste the link into your address bar.

Thank you!

Zog.3954:

^ He just wrote. Copy paste it. Why? because this forums will give the bad link error. if you press directly the link. Again. Copy paste it.

I didn’t know that the “copy/paste” message was referring to the link. I appreciate the information, but the attitude? Unnecessary.

I feel like this change won’t affect me much, personally, since I usually space my stealth a few seconds apart anyways. Varying the stealth time is less predictable for people trying to CC me.

The only times this is going to be a possible problem for me is when I’m trying to bail from a losing battle, but on those occasions I think the class is still adaptable enough to survive. That, or I need to play better.

Liewec.2896:

with a beast mastery / precision LB ranger i can get some freakishly huge burst
http://intothemists.com/calc/?build=-Fo-F-0;0F-u-r2gDV-0;9V8b;19T;0T0;0069;406B6 kitten 1F-03F-035BZ
open with casting Rampage as One+barrage while sending in your kitty, then pop quickness, “sick em!” and rapid fire, pewpewpew!
you could always replace the runes with something like Scholar, but i like the crit from the 100 precision.

I keep getting “Bad Link” with all of the intothemists builds. Maybe repost with a different build editor?

stinkypants.8419:

How’s this for a SB (Wv3) specific build? Likely dependent on a good CG CB rotation -

http://intothemists.com/calc/?build=VeV-F3;0VwkZ0N5FOVd0;9;4E9T9-4;05;036A5;9;9-Fa

(copy/paste)

I currently run 0/30/30/10/0 and often angle into the middle of a zerg, drop the CG CB combo and Withdraw out and drop BP if I need to, works pretty well. May have to try the above build myself

It says bad link. That’s a shame, because I was curious to see what you had.