Guild Wars 2

… ? <.< ? …

… ? >.> ? …

Are you playing along?

Aye, I could see Assassin’s Reward better fitting into Shadow Arts. That makes sense.

I’m not understanding your point with FLeet of Foot. You can dodge roll when you are crippled/chilled. You can not dodge roll when immobilized. So a trait that says dodge rolls remove immobilize doesn’t seem useful to me since the condition is cleansed by doing something the condition prevents.

Are you saying you want the trait to also read “Immobilize does not prevent dodge rolls” ? That’d be an interested concept … but that would be extremely powerful since most burst are lead by a stun or immobilize … especially against slippery Thieves :-p

Aye, I hate what they did with the ICDs for Mesmer. Whenever I feel like being a tanky Mesmer I get a little sad and mad because I can’t do it nearly as well as I used to … and I was never a PU build … just got nerfed because of the griping about it :-/

@Advent: Awesome :-)

For Assassin’s Reward, would you accept better scaling or better base healing or pretty set on the scaling coefficient being more thkitten ? I can see good reasons for either, but I’m curious about your thoughts.

For Pain Response, I agree. There are several non-Thief traits/skills that are like this as well and should likely be updated to account for this new damaging trait … though maybe we’re wrong … none of them mention Confusion either.

I’m not sure about another stack of Might from Power of Inertia given how much a Thief can Dodge with Feline Grace and Vigor; especially given the base 15s duration on that Might.

Fleet of Foot would be hard-pressed to remove immobilize when you Dodge since when you’re immobilized you can’t dodge :-)

I actually think Assassin’s equilibrium isn’t that bad. Thief just has some really darn good choices for GM. I think the logic behind that one is that most classes wait for the Thief to come out of stealth and then we CC you to death while killing you. This prevents that initial CC. Now, whether or not it needs a tweak is another question. At least it doesn’t have an ICD :-) I think it has more use for a non-Sword Thief as a Sword Thief is already going to Daze their target with their attack from Stealth.

Any other Trait lines?

So they got one good page and then people couldn’t be mature/non-toxic.

Doesn’t mean we can’t have this discussion. I’m hoping to hear back from Advent about my earlier questions … and any others that wish to have an actual conversation (note: not argument).

You don’t have to be able to physically deal with people to have an environment where you can have a discussion.

With Elementalist they have RtL and Burning Speed … and perma-swiftness.

But, yes, I agree that they aren’t any more mobile than Rangers … possibly slightly less nowadays.

I just think for that all speed + swiftness they aren’t giving anything up. But I imagine that’s a hard class to balance. 20 weapon skills alone versus everyone else’s 10 (not counting 2+ kit engineers).

I ran a 0/6/2/6/0 variant of this in 49 Fractal yesterday with Sword+Focus / Scepter+Sword and it worked quite well.

Scepter + Sword for single-target damage.
Sword + Focus for cleave damage … and counter-projectiles.

I love freeing up a utility slot since my with MoR I have both my heal and condition cleanse covered (and better cooldown than the util).

The heal from Restorative Mantras was also nice in helping my group with fights where you can get whittled down a bit. Between that and our one friend that usually runs with his Guardian in Cleric’s, we had some good sustain without really sacrificing my own damage (I was still in full zerk).

<3 Sir Vincent III … you got me, sir :-p

I was sure that link was going to be to some post like the ones for Condition stacking that came out the past week or so.

Well-played.

@Advent:
Thanks. Some good points.
Any specific ideas you have in mind for any moving/replacing/tweaking you think would improve things for everyone (Thieves and non-Thieves) ?

I’ve always been a fan of Acrobatics. I’ve seen some sick Sword+Dagger Thieves that focus on:

• Gain back some Endurance when you Dodge Roll
• Vigor up-time
• Initiative regen

They evade/dodge for days and it’s pretty awesome to watch … though they frustate the heck out of me when I have to fight them … but I always respect them. It’s harder than it looks to evade/dodge that much and still tear people apart.

@Zero Day:
Someone saying something rash doesn’t force anyone else to join in. People can choose to be mature, ignore it, and move on.

Just as there are several examples of immaturity on the forums, there are also several examples of maturity being shown as well.

Which examples you provide is up to each individual.

Your first bet is wrong … I did try to help in a nice/kind way … what do I win? :-)

You are correct though. Some people do not take kindly to advice even when given in a friendly manner.

That being said, I’ve seen some people try to shove their “advice” down other people’s throats … that is a horrible way to go about it and those people have quite a valid reason for reacting negative to someone telling them “you’re doing it wrong!” or any other similar way of “giving advice”.

There is are big differences between “giving advice”, “critiquing”, and “criticizing”.

Thanks. You make some more good points :-p

Figured the 20% cooldown on gadgets wasn’t really worth it for just a few seconds off the boots so that freed up some points as well.

This looks still pretty darn mobile while packing more of a condition damage punch.

• http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fdMQJAqelUUpdr9dxzLseRCbBNyx8GQNBRuxq8xIEAA-TVw2AAw+DiBgJ-w

I could see it being used with Celestial or Rabid/Sinister gear depending on preference of Toughness/Power. Probably leaning more toward Rabid/Sinister.

Not sure about Sigils yet though.

@Rym:
I disagree. I can notice quite a big difference between experienced and new Rangers with either Bow.

w/ Longbow: Intelligent [re-]positioning, use of knockback, use of stealth, when to rapid fire, etc. all come into play. I can tell a big difference between a new Ranger and an experienced one.

w/ Shortbow: Intelligent [re-]positioning, use of volley, use of the evade, good use of daze.

That being said, melee is a “make it or break it” point though as you’re in a much higher risk environment in melee.

With all weapons, I really notice how they use the pet in tandem with their weapons. A new Ranger just has their pet chase me. An experienced Ranger will CC chain me with a combination of pet immob/knockdown/fear … possibly even thrown in muddy terrain, spike trap, and/or entangle for good measure.

We have so much immobilization as Rangers btw … it’s sickeningly awesome :-)

Never let other people dictate what you do/don’t want to do.

You could swap from Thief, use a different build, play a different game, etc. and you’d still have someone make those sorts of comments to you.

Play what you want how you want and enjoy it.

It could be argued that Thief’s class mechanic is Steal.

Some weapons have received changes throughout the life of the game.

Weapon changes could potentially reduce the level of access to stealth that Thieves have.

So it could happen.

As far as learn to play, please see post history. This is not my topic and I’m not for Thieves being nerfed. I think Thief is a class with an awesomely high skill ceiling.

I merely wish to discuss. Again, see my post history and you’ll see that. It’s far from a L2P issue.

Hmmm.
What about OOC, Mantras have no cooldown.
In-combat, Mantas have a cooldown.

The only issue I see with this is Mesmer intentionally resetting combat to get off a quick mantra-reset … but Thieves already do this sort of things thanks to how Initiative works versus the rest of us mere mortals with our cooldowns :-p

Was Giver’s not an option for your Legendary stats?

Or are you talking about the difference in stats? That’d be due to Ascended vs Exotic.

@Narkodx:
Precisely … but people shouldn’t “look down on” the bad players. It would behoove us all to be more helpful to those players so they can learn and stop being “bad”.

Also, part of being a “good” player is recognizing and understanding the pros/cons of each class, their abilities, their builds, etc. and what to do with that knowledge as well as when.

Every class has pros and cons.

ArenaNet has said that HoT is more focused on improving the PvE content in GW2. Perhaps that will include some improved AI since they said they are wanting to create more fun fights.

If that ends up being the case, then perhaps some of that AI work could be leveraged for improving our pets to

• Be more responsive to our commands
• Be more capable of hitting moving targets

@Darkness:
What’s with the constant “White Knight” talk in your posts. Calling someone that:

• Does nothing for your post
• Has no real meaning
• Reflects poorly on you

@Darkness & @JimHunter
Please try to stick to discussing the topic(s) … not the people.

@Curring:
I think most people’s problem is that for Ranger to have good OOC mobility, they need to have Sword and/or Greatsword. On top of that, using Sword effectively for that extra mobility requires some coordination. Not everyone can meet the skill floor required for it and do it comfortably.

I agree on Mesmer … people that have played Mesmer don’t complain about any other class’s mobility … except when complaining about trying to chase them :-p

One last thing … most mobile builds sacrifice a good bit to get that mobility. I’m much less concerned with a Greatsword/Sword+Horn Warrior than I am a more combat-focused Warrior.

Elementalists though … Dagger Dagger and Cantrips … so much versatility. I don’t see any sacrifice there for that mobility aside from a lack of range … though Ride the Lightning did get that cooldown nerf a long while back.

Puck.9612:

Now if we had a way to strip their boons things might be different.

Puck … you hit one of my Ranger desires right on the head.

If Staff gives Ranger boon removal … I’d be so happy.

It’s one of those things that perturbs me when I switch from my Mesmer to my Ranger

• My Mesmer doesn’t care about boons … he just removes them
• My Ranger stares impotently at those boons while trying to work through them

Stripping Boons off players who rely on that crutch is one of my favorite things to do in PvP.

When it comes to builds, I try to think on these points:

• How deadly am I when unpressured … if not a big threat, something needs to change
• How capable am I of surviving when pressured?
• How threatening am I when pressured?

Thanks, Arantheal.

I was thinking it could probably be done with Celestial or Condition and using the Rifle mainly for its mobility and CC. The added mobility was why Rifle was initially selected though.

I don’t think I’m losing too much by not having the Pistol+Shield given that with Elixir Gun the only condition damage abilities I’d be using from Pistol are #2 and #3. Those would be nice to have though … as would the blocks. Looks like something that should be tinkered with ;-)

I’m not a fan of Automated Response because of two reasons:

• It doesn’t kick in till I’m at 50% hp.
• It doesn’t affect conditions already on me before it kicks in.

Runes of Antitoxin could definitely replace Melandru if focusing on condition damage. The only downside I see is losing some of the stun reduction, but I think that’s fine given that most stuns aren’t that long and it’s only 25% … we’re talking usually only shaving 0.25 to 0.5 off a stun with that.

I agree with wanting to be able to kill while kiting. That is part of why I listed this. I think the “more mobile version” could kill those without much/any condition removal, but the rest would have to be worse players than you in order to get the kill.

I think a Nike Warrior would be hard-pressed to chase someone they can’t even run in a straight line at that can also run at double-OOC speed while the Warrior is running at combat speed (assuming he ever got you in combat).

Lastly … perhaps this could be a good/fun build for quick map completion and/or gathering.

It’d be nice if some of you tried to have an actual conversation about it instead of:

• Beating a poor defenseless horse while it tries to nap
• Complain that Thieves are OP
• Complain that people complain that Thieves are OP

Some people have made good points, but they get drowned out by the people doing these other things.

Since stealth seems to be the thing that annoys most people, here’s a simple question:

If the Thief class had less access to Stealth … let’s say the same amount of stealth as a Mesmer … what do you think they’d need in order to retain their survivability ?

• Access to protection?
• Access to stability?
• Even more evasion?
• Even more mobility?
• Higher base hitpoints?

… do we just need to have that discussion in a thread that doesn’t have this thread’s name … I’m personally not a fan of it either and I don’t even main a Thief (just dabble)

I agree with the hidden timer … hidden timer’s are not fun.

Additionally, that would mean that if I used one charge and then 30+ seconds later, when I use the last charge the Mantra is immediately off cooldown because its cooldown counted down after the first charge. That seems like it could potentially create some balancing issues.

It also doesn’t address the issue that we want to start our next fight at full charges without having to waste current charges. You’re still having to waste your 1-2 remaining charges to get back to your max 2-3 charges. The cooldown is just potentially less.

So, since it doesn’t appear to really solve the issue and I could see some balancing issues with it, I’m not a big fan of the idea of just changing when the cooldown starts counting down.

I think no cooldown would be a bit overpowered.

Mantra of Concentration could almost completely protect its own recharge with the stability it gives.

You could cycle MoResolve and MoRecovery to completely ignore a condition build … especially if traited for heals to remove conditions.

Mantra of Distraction would become a monster. I wouldn’t care that I have to spend 2.75s casting it when my opponent is constantly dazed.

My only issue was the lack of contrast with the Sepia. Since I’m colorblind, it started to make my eyes hurt. Thankfully, I could turn that off by turning off post-processing.

The only other issues I had with it was that Mesmer clones weren’t sticking out their arms. That wasn’t helpful in PvP.

The only thing I’ve ever been able to think up when my mind wonders to this topic is this …

If the player limit for a map drops from say 75 to 50 … and some of the servers still have more than 50 players on the map, the first X players to die can’t respawn on that map. This would be akin to your side no longer having the resources to support that number of reinforcements.

That being said, I could see that being a rage-inducing user experience at times.

-33% Cripple/Chill/Immob duration
-40% Condition Duration Food
-25% Condition Duration from Melandru Runes

= -98% Cripple/Chill/Immob duration
= -65% Condition Duration

Can’t do anything to mitigate it either.
No boon stripping.
No waiting it out (they can just eat a bit more food … and runes and trait points don’t go away).

While I’ve taken advantage of this … I’ve always wondered how this could possibly be “balanced” for people to be able to mitigate conditions this way … particularly condition damage.

Heck, -65% on condition duration … that’s fairly ridiculous given that protection (which is strippable) is only -33% damage reduction, direct damage can’t be “cleansed”, and direct damage doesn’t have to deal with the current stack limitations.

Some stuff I hope that ArenaNet is keeping in mind moving forward with their discussions on making changes to Conditions in-game.

Thanks.
Henge right now is smoking EB and CD in points. It’s more of EB and CD fighting for 2nd. I’m thinking it might be more balanced if it becomes EB, CD, and IoJ.

I’m on U.S central time. I play evenings after work once the kids are in bed.

I don’t think it’s so much “easy payouts” as it is an imbalance in the tradeoffs paid by the classes.

Look at what an Elementalist gains by running the classic tourney build with Dagger/Dagger:

• Single target damage (power and condition)
• Cleave damage (power and condition)
• Mobility
• Healing (self and team)
• Cleanse (self and team)
• Crowd Control
• Boon stacking (self and team)

The only thing they don’t have is “long range” and that isn’t really a problem when talking about Conquest given that contesting a point puts you quite close to each other … in fact, their abundance of AOE is well-suited for that little circle.

What exactly are they missing? Unless you can boon strip them, they aren’t even really squishy. If you do, they have the mobility to get away and reset.

I’m leaning towards Photoloss here. I don’t see what is gained by being forced to consume charges for no reason just to get to where you can recast it after waiting for the cooldown. In fact, that is the scenario we’re trying to solve.

Disclaimer: I played Mesmer and Ranger since release … took a break for a year and am back and playing Engineer more and more.

I was just playing around with the idea: “What would be a stupidly mobile Engineer that would be difficult to pin down?”.

I came up with this:

• http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fdAQFA0EtbtvLeeRSdBN6nEluEqBCqAIqFC-TVgRAAw+DiBgJ-w

Note: 2 trait points (and some other options) are intentionally unallocated as I think there are several decent choices for them.

Anti-CC/Conditions:

• Cripple, Chill, and Immobilize duration are reduced by 98% (25% + 40% + 33%).
• Other conditions are reduced by 65%
• Protection when CC’d
• 2 Stunbreakers
• Reduced damage when KD’d/Stunned

Extra Mobility:

• Speedy Kits for perma-swift
• 3 leaps via Rocket Boots, Elixir Gun, and Rifle.
• Slick shoes for deterring people chasing you
• Super Speed for gaining double OOC speed even when in combat.
• You have reduced toolbelt cooldowns and reset toolbelt skills at 25% hp … so more Super Speed and Stunbreaking.

Misc:

• Reduced cooldowns on Elixir and Gadgets for even more leaping from Elixir Gun and Rocket Boots.

Basically, a pain in the butt to catch.

I’m curious if anyone has played like this before and if they had much fun with it. I could see it being effective in WvW for scouting and/or running supply.

Thanks all :-)
Matches what I thought … so I think I’m on the right track.

If +1-ing a fight … aggressive.

Otherwise, cautious. Mesmers are back-loaded so we often have an advantage as the fight goes on.

If someone wants to dance with me for a bit while my illusions light them up … I’m not going to stop them ;-)

Lower the turrets’ direct health … let turrets be affected by conditions (please!).

It irks me when I see illusions/minions/pets affected by them (especially mine!) but then Engineer turrets couldn’t care less.

Conditions not affecting turrets, doors, etc. is something I hope they are looking into with their investigation into helping conditions in the future.

Was there something wrong with keeping the cooldowns and cast time the same as they are now, but allowing a passive 1 charge per X second recharge as long as you have 1+ charges?

In that case, they are just adding the passive recharge aspect. Thus, if it needs to be buffed/nerfed, they can just tweak the X second recharge and leave the current cast time and cooldown as is.

If they ever do decide to go with the idea of summons/pets/etc. take less damage from AOE/Cleave, they could possibly borrow some code from the high level fractals as there is one instability that states that damage done to enemies you don’t have targeted is reduced.

That is … if someone cleaves my illusion but doesn’t have it targeted, they do less damage to it. If they have it targeted, they do full damage to it.

I think that would be a nice way to get around the fact that technically most of the attacks in GW2 are “AOE”.

Aye, useful to know, but I’ve never found it necessary.

When Passive works, if you just put your pet on passive it won’t put you in combat if it gets hit.

If you are worried about pet pathing, use swap pet. You’re usually only worried about that pathing when avoiding combat anyways so you have practically no cooldown on pet swap in those instances.

Lightning Reflexes
Sword #2.1
turn 180 and clear target
Sword #2.2
Swap to Greatsword
Greatsword #3

Welcome to mobility :-)

@Tragic:
Personally, I try to not look down on other Rangers. If they make some mistakes and I rip them a new one, I will chat them some tips if I have the time.

This “looking down on” is toxic and has no real purpose. It does nothing good for the game and its community. People need to stop with that stuff.

It also makes the people doing it look bad.

All I’m seeing in this discussion is:

• “There are several bad rangers … but Ranger isn’t bad”

You could swap out Ranger and insert any class in the game and that would be true.

So what is it we’re trying to get at here?

I’m not seeing a real point to this :-/

Actually ran into a good number of EBAY … literally the [EBAY] guild too (good people) … and had some good fights. Still had to avoid large zergs though … never saw anything on our side that could stand up to a zerg. It was also the only grouping of people I saw in the WvW Teamspeak channels for EBAY so unless there are some other EBAY guilds that were out there and using their own TS, that was it for a large portion of our presence.

What is confusing about what I said about EBay before ? I’ll try to be clearer :-(

My friends on Shiverpeak have been vouching for the community on that server. Those others I’ve run into there do seem like good people from the bit I’ve interacted with them in PvE content.

I’m just still curious about the various Tiers the servers are in. Specifically how “even” they are. “Even” matches are obviously best as you have actual competition. Then it’s nice to have actual presence so it’s more PvP than PvE when in WvW.

My friends on Shiverpeak admitted that the past couple weeks weren’t that fun for them given how there was a much larger blob dominating WvW and Shiverpeak couldn’t match it in size … though apparently this week has been a much more fun (see: “even”) match.

I don’t know what you are talking about … people friggin love me in Fractals and no one complains whether I’m on my Ranger or another character.

You are treated based on what you actually do with the class.

If people want to not be looked down upon … show up and play well.

If people want to be noticed / unique / etc. … show up and play well … and be nice. Many don’t care if you’re #1 if you’re a jerk.

If you fail at something … it was probably your own fault … figure out your errors and learn from them … or you’re likely to fail that way again.

Simple stuff, really.

My pet is not 100% “balls deep”. I just have to tell him to come back to me more often than I usually do … it’s an irritation, but it will likely pass … though the fix is slower than I’d like.

I agree that Ranger weapons are absolutely awesome. My only complaint there is being able to interrupt my Sword AAs with a dodge roll … I prefer more control over my character (hence why, yes, the pet bug is irritating … less control).

If you hate being Crippled/Chilled/Immobilized … then here’s a great solution:

• Dogged March: -33% duration on those … and they give you regen when applied to you
• Melandru Runes: -35% condition duration
• Lemongrass Poultry Soup: -40% condition duration

Grand total of:

• -98% duration on Cripple/Chill/Immobilize (they still give you regen if someone puts them on you)
• -65% duration on all other conditions

This is just one of the interesting and unique things that can be done as a Warrior in GW2.

You’re more than free to disagree, but the Sneakthief gear best matches Thieves in game and it looks like a ninja. I’m just waiting for you to have some sort of throwing stars Utility in HoT :-p

The website is down. Hopefully a temporary thing?

Has anyone had a video/guide/etc. on tips for hitting a moving target with grenades … or is it simply just something you need to get used to over accumulating more hours on the Engineer?

I try to lead the target, etc., but meh … still don’t feel like I’m “accurate enough” … especially with targets in PvP.

NOTE: I’m aware that at point blank it’s hard to miss :-p I’m talking about targets at 600+

hyjaxxx:
You have a valid point.
Having a tanky pet in PvE can let a person progress through the game without having to learn to notice telegraphs and dodge/block/etc.

Having so many people that panic and don’t know what to do about rapid fire can let a person think that all they need to do is max range and wait for that cooldown.

And so on.

That being said, the same could be said for some other classes as well … for example, Warrior and Guardian can teach some bad habits as well given that they can actually face-tank quite a bit.

We were just talking about Ranger in WvW last night. One engineer’s take was this:

“If I can get them in the ruins or some place where I can break LOS, I can take a longbow ranger, but if they catch me out in the open I’m in trouble”.

The problems Ranger suffers from largely revolve around the pet, this is true. It is why Rangers generally do better in skirmishers than in big zergs … just like Mesmers … different mechanic … same bad scaling to large engagements for that mechanic.

Darkness, if you will stick to discussing points/facts, I would take your posts more seriously. As it is, I’m just seeing you attack people which just is just “not cool” … and pointless.

• As it is … everyone does not know Ranger is bad.
• Ranger is not always the first target to die.
• Rangers have more than 0 survival skills … look at other classes complain about the duration of Signet of Stone.
• I see no list of what the Devs play … please show it to me.

Just give them trophies for participating. That seems to solve everything ;-)

Ranger has its pros and cons. Currently, the meta doesn’t seem to believe the Pros outweigh the cons enough to bring Rangers in every top-level sPvP team … unlike some other classes that are usually doubled up on :-/ People will continue to ignore this as many of them aren’t aware and just see two feet in front of them right here; right now.

People will always complain. A warrior complained every match I was in about Longbow rangers … I had a shortbow/axe+torch and he still complained. Sore losers exist.

You simply need to ignore these things from people.

You can’t fix stupid.
You can’t fix ignorance.
It’s up to that person to fix their self.
If they refuse to, there is a handy /block feature if you get tired of seeing their chat.

I’ve lost count of the number of these threads I’ve seen … and I’ve been aware for a year so can only imagine how many I missed in that time.

Heck, before longbows got buffed, people complained about condition beastmaster rangers.

People complain when beat. It’s easier for them than self reflection, learning, adapting, etc. … though less fruitful than hitting yourself with a 2×4.

Not so much late to the party as coming back after a year and happy to see someone else still doing it. I always loved on-clone-death back in the day due to how it punishes people who think the best tactic versus a Mesmer is “more cleave!”.

I’m excited to see you were also using Rampagers! I don’t think I’ve ever seen anyone in videos using it as well! Everyone I see in videos has always been using Rabid, Zerker, or Celestial … never maxing out that precision for Sharper Images. We had a very old thread on this back around release in the Mesmer forums … math and all :-)

I assume you use Sword instead of Scepter because Sword clones stick to their target thereby being more likely to hit with on-clone-death.

I tend to swap between the two based on mood because Scepter is ridiculous if the other team doesn’t pressure you. You can be blowing up your clones every 3rd auto-attack as every time you overflow (have 3 illusions and summon a 4th), the illusion that is replaced dies and triggers their on-cleath-death effects … just like with your explanation of illusion overflow when you dodge.

This is one of the reasons I’m keeping an eye on the state of conditions with the upcoming expansion as that is incredibly powerful in PvE as well … if condition damage can be helped out … constant cripple+confusion+bleed/vuln/weakness on the target with a range attack.

@MailMail:
Thanks. As I stated in PMs, Mesmers used to be able to be tanky before our capability to do so got nerfed hard with the nerf to Chaos Armor not immediately giving protection and Illusionary Membrane having an ICD that is more than 4x the duration of the Protection it gives.

@Countless:
I’m very excited to see what you’ve cooked up. Even more excited by skcamow’s claims that you’re using clone-on-death traits … those were some of my favorites back in the day when I could run a tanky condition build so I’m excited to see what you do with them given that we can’t be quite as tanky as we used to.

No problem.
I was going to do the math for this … but when I googled Beastmastery, my old post from about a year ago came up.

I’ll have to double-check the numbers, but at a quick glance it seems still accurate.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/ranger/Beastmastery-Math/first#post1974579