I will use Quick Draw to:
Crush my enemies. See them driven them before me. Hear the lamentations of their women.
Good rangers have no trouble with content and leave other players quite pleasantly surprised.
Bad rangers do have trouble with content, blame it on the class, and fulfil the “kitten” view some people have of pet classes.
If you take the time to learn the class, you’ll be fine.
I would love that, Wonderouswall.
I dislike the argument that has been given before that they don’t want to overwhelm new players … new players already ignore a large amount of the information available on the interface. Let them ignore some more until they decide they want to care what it is.
Since the patch is about to be released sometime today … how about you wait and see how things settle with these changes and then continue this discussion from there?
Seems more logical to me.
I can’t say I blame them for not answering it.
I agree with you that they probably don’t have a good answer in that they can’t give concrete reasons why … probably just anecdotes and possibly some statistics they’ve observed from gameplay since the last patch.
It is quite difficult to quantify Fast Hands as that faster weapon swaps means considerably different things depending on the traits, weapon sets, sigils, traits, etc. in a given build.
For example:
Fast Hands in a shoutbow build allows for far more Might Stacking as it allows a Warrior to swap to Longbow, Burst Skill, Blast w/ Longbow, swap to Sword+Horn, Blast w/ Horn, Leap w/ Sword … and do it often.
For some weapon sets, it is just allowing more swapping between weapons so more weapon skills spam or, preferably, more proper selection of the ideal weapon for the current situation.
If someone wants to try to quantify, I’d love to see the thought process and math though. Would be an interesting exercise at the least.
@Heimskarl and Sol:
I see nothing productive coming from you two talking at each other which is sad because I’ve seen you both contribute quite well to threads before … get back to that please.
The purpose of condition removals is for handling those times when:
In my mind, the problem with Empathic Bond is its long ICD. It is 10 seconds which means conditions may be removed immediately or sit on you for 10 seconds. That’s a large variance.
If we at least had some indicator for what the ICD for EB was at, that would be a huge improvement. It would allow for players to keep tack of EB and making skilled decisions based on that information.
If that is too much or not what ArenaNet wants to do, then my suggestion is to lower the ICD and adjust the number of conditions removed by it to balance around the reduced ICD.
Otherwise, in my mind, it is simply another unreliable, no-skill trait … but hey, maybe that’s its purpose. Perhaps some players have no clue about when to use their cleanses so they sometimes “magically” survive because the ICD worked out with the application of some condition(s).
But that would hinder the counterplay that is inherent in being able to screen conditions with other conditions. Counterplay is the goal so I’m not a fan of that prioritization.
If you’re using one burst skill every 16 to 20 seconds, then, yes, you have an issue with being kited.
Chaotic Interruption works on-interrupt, not on-daze. There’s a difference. It also isn’t a cleanse. It also doesn’t do anything if you miss, are blocked, are dodged, etc.. No consolation prize.
Yep, melee is often “more dangerous” than ranged, but Warrior is not the only class in the game that melees. Even the three light armor classes mix it up in melee some.
Shoutbow is the pigeonhole because of how strong it is. A single class is providing that much condition cleanse … that’s useful for sPvP and WvW. Then that same class has a big AOE on a low cooldown with a decent duration that covers an sPvP point and allows for some very nice might-stacking. On top of that it has sustain. It’s ideal for that game mode.
But you don’t see all Warriors needing that when roaming (the non-meta WvW). Plenty of Roaming Warrior builds don’t take a bow and do quite well despite the fact that many roaming builds across all classes are condi builds.
Your teams telling you you’re bad is a separate issue. We don’t know how good/bad you are. We don’t know how smart/stupid your teams are. It tells us little, if anything.
Essentially, the OP, you, and some others are asking for a powerful trait to take even less skill to use. I don’t think that’s a great idea. Let’s keep some powerful things requiring skill. I don’t see the issue with that.
… and you don’t think discussion helps people find an answer?
… is there something else we should be doing on a forum besides having discussions?
Honestly, we’ve discussed “baseline fast hands” so many times in the past month it’s gotten old and the only real things left to discuss are little side-topics related to it like “what would take less work”.
Though we obviously still have those people who don’t read any of the threads and just post the equivalent of “I like pancakes!”.
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@Choppy:
I think you see a contradiction because you misunderstand the context. We only got onto sigils due to me saying earlier that
The only bit of “less work” I can see from removing Fast Hands (instead of baselining it) is with on-swap sigils since they are supposed to be balanced for everyone
We only got onto sigils because of Kagamiku’s mention of it being harder to balance warrior around not having Fast Hands than it would be to balance around it being baselined.
We’re only talking about sigils as far as “how much work (if any) would it require it to balance around baseline Fast Hands” compared to “how much work would it require to balance around Fast Hands being removed”
I agreed baselining would be less work and merely stated that the only thing I thought could be more work would be sigils … emphasis on the could … not would. I rarely deal in absolutes unless we’ve got the math.
Showing the difference in how it works with Fast Hands versus without it was to show that they don’t necessarily have the same power for those without Fast Hands as they do for those with Fast Hands given that Fast Hands does allow them to be used twice as much.
The only reason that was brought up was because I think there could be some balance work required there if Fast Hands was baseline.
Is it clearer now?
@Nier:
Please actually read the thread. You show that you obviously haven’t given that I have said that I agree that it should be made baseline or removed … and balanced with whichever is done.
Not once have I said it was overpowered. Not once have I said that it being baselined would be a problem. Not once did I say anything that lends any credit to your baseless, asinine claims that show your inability or unwillingness to read and sheer to desire to type your opinion when you have no clue about the current context of the thread and the posts in it.
If you aren’t going to read, shut your yapper until you get a clue about what’s actually going on in the thread … which is done by actually reading … thinking helps too.
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So many people here were on the stream and saw it but not one person pressed Print Screen? At best you’re slackers! :-p
I’m sticking with “wait and see” … less than 24 hours … I’ve waited longer than that before.
LMAO jcbroe … just felt like seeing my thoughts but coming from someone else … just as rambling too … maybe a little less crazy :-p
Let’s be honest about Tuesday’s patch … it’s quite likely going to be followed by some balance patches. Accept it and go with it. It is a game after all … and an MMO … these things are part of it.
In some nerfs … sure … confusion was never hard to deal with when you could cleanse or not spam buttons … but it was nerfed hard 2 years ago.
In other cases … some things were bloody OP and needed changes.
In other cases … some things were pathetically UP and needed changes.
Honestly, the least whiny are the old men like myself … and we have more money too … though some of us have wives we have to negotiate with to get it ;-p
I hate you both … I’ll never get those seconds of my life back :-p
I’m not worried about a Condi Engineer. You know what they have trouble with? Conditions.
You know what a Survival Condi Ranger doesn’t have trouble with? Conditions.
@Bran:
Many of us don’t set our standards low.
Many of us like people to actually provide support for what they say … otherwise recognize that it’s an unsupported opinion and holds as much weight as a fart in the wind.
Many of us would rather look at what we can do rather than sit around griping about what we can’t … we get more kills this way and groups actually take us for content when we do this instead of griping.
Heck … look at the Warrior subforum … big bunch of whiners there too … despite being a strong class in every meta. This is why I give little credit to whining unless the person actually provides facts and logical reasoning to support what they say.
Except that Warrior can leverage two sets of them twice as often as others.
… 10 seconds with Fast Hands …
As opposed to other classes which even with a 9 second cd from runes (which no one takes because it’s garbage) …
… 18 if you take those horrible runes … 20 if you’re sane and take better runes …
Which frequency were they balanced around?
Or was Warrior balanced around having on-swap sigils?
If Warrior was balanced around having on-swap sigils, what all does that entail as far as Warrior and sigils that aren’t on-swap? … seems like a possible rabbit hole … or it could just mean that Warrior builds that take other sigils are less powerful than those that do … unless the changes are going to somehow breed life into builds that are just as powerful without Fast Hands as other builds with it.
No, I don’t think just being able to remove 2 conditions in a 10s period is OP … but …
In a single Warrior build that we’re pigeon-holed into in sPvP and WvW metas …
All of those except the first just auto-magically work when we use them.
I know Guild Wars has its build wars, but that’s a bit much for a condition build to contend with … I wonder why our Warriors are pigeon-holed into shout builds in the sPvP and WvW metas …
I still don’t see what the problem is with being rewarded when you succeed and getting no “consolation prize” when you fail.
Well, until someone shows me some concrete proof, I’m not going to freak out.
Now 30 is approaching so my eyes could be going, but I just double-checked this whole thread and don’t see one link, screenshot, etc..
How about we get actual proof or just wait until tomorrow before we pull out the torches and pitchforks?
I’m going to say it right now … if, when we log in after tomorrow, MtD still applies 2 stacks of torment, you’re going to feel silly at best.
Condi Engineer unloads conditions quickly to necro … Necro consumes or transfers them back. Necro laughs (or giggles).
Aye, right now we have to combine dulfy for traits and other editors for weapons, utilities, runes, sigils, etc..
I’m sure it won’t take long for that to change and us have a single good source for it all.
Lol. There’s always someone that disagrees and says: “you obviously don’t play Warrior, Mesmer, Ranger, etc.” if someone disagrees with them. Doesn’t matter which subforum. If you guys were correct, no one but you would play whatever class you’re talking about.
If you can’t generate 10+ adrenaline twice in 10 seconds when you have Cleansing Ire, Fast Hands, and Versatile Rage … then I think we know where your problem is.
If you’re restricting yourself to only using your burst skills with 3 bars when you have Cleansing Ire and damaging conditions stacked on you … then I think we found a different problem you’re having.
(edited by Sebrent.3625)
Scepter (1 block)
MH Sword (Blurred Frenzy … evades)
OH Sword (1 block)
Shield (2 blocks)
F5 (if used before) to to reset every one of them … though having alacrity may make that completely unnecessary given the low cooldowns on these weapon skills.
Yeah … I’d love that … though curious what build I’d run both scepter and sword in … maybe something with Celestial.
Also … won’t aegis proc the block traits as well (Ineptitude and Mental Defense)? :-)
I’m very interested in my Dueling/Chaos/Illusions condition build with Scepter+X & Staff.
So many fantastic options for Mesmers now … so excited.
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If they changed Empathic Bond to remove 1 condition every 3 seconds, I’d be a bigger fan of it than its current incarnation.
If someone applies conditions to me, I don’t want to be sitting there wondering if they’ll be cleansed in the next second or 10 seconds.
That being said … 1 every 3 seconds would likely be a bit OP … I’d be fine with 1 every 5 seconds … that’d be a passive version of what Warrior’s can trait with removing a condition on weapon swap. Doesn’t require a swap but is less in the Ranger’s control. I think that’s adequate balance between the two.
Solid idea.
I would probably prefer to see something more “creative” than simple +% numbers to projectile velocity, range, and damage … but those are also quite simple for ArenaNet to tweak to achieve a good balance.
Are you sure?
With my Mesmer, if I took -20% on a weapon skill and -20% on illusion summoning, it would reduce the cooldown on Illusions summoned by that weapon by 40% of the base cooldown instead of 20% of the base and then 20% of that 80%.
Maybe later … I’m at work right now and have a newborn at home … so much less prone to search the forums for others for the next few months (or year … though she’s a very chill baby … thank God)
If the Thief has offhand pistol, interrupt.
If the Thief has Sword, teleport to the Ranger and move behind them. You’ll cancel the channel if you get out of the Ranger’s front arc.
If the Thief has Sword and already teleported, they should have done so from a location they can recall back to to line-of-sight.
If the Thief has Sword+Dagger, they can combine dodge rolls and evades from flanking strike.
If the Thief has a shrotbow, they can use that mobility to LOS or get out of range (if already close to max range) … or to get out of the Ranger’s front arc.
If the Thief has traited steal to daze, steal.
If the Thief has Basilisk Venom, hit the Ranger.
If the Thief has Dagger Storm … laugh as you reflect it back.
… and so on.
They will work on interrupting Rapid Fire and Unload as both are channeled. Rapid Fire is easier to interrupt as it is a longer channel.
@Burch:
OP said quite a bit more about it than just how bad the streamer was … did his/her usual salty gripe about Ranger without providing any substance to back it up. That is why mistsim made the point (s)he did. It’s something that many of us that have been around for a while have noticed time and time again from the same few, overly vocal, salt piles.
I’m curious how Ambidexterity and Quick Draw are going to react.
Will we get 20% off baseline and 66% off baseline?
Or will we get 20% off baseline and 66% off of that reduced cooldown?
If I was the only person in-game that played ranger … I wouldn’t care.
If everyone in-game played ranger … I wouldn’t care.
What you should care about is whether or not you enjoy it … if you do … great.
If you don’t … either learn it more and you might change your might, or go play something else and try to like it.
Very simple stuff.
As far as streamers … they’ve become dime-a-dozen with how easy it is to record/stream. Being a “streamer” doesn’t afford anyone anything.
… that isn’t to say some streamers aren’t great … just being a streamer doesn’t make a person great … a great streamer is someone who is great that decides to stream.
Remorseless is just looking better and better.
Already saw the condi stacking with Quick Draw coming.
I can’t wait to test out the rest myself … much better than watching someone seemingly not familiar.
@Kagamiku:
I agree. I think Warrior is currently balanced more around having Fast Hands than not having it … so it would likely be more work to balance around not having it.
The only bit of “less work” I can see from removing Fast Hands (instead of baselining it) is with on-swap sigils since they are supposed to be balanced for everyone … it’d be easier if there wasn’t a single class that skewed their power.
@Dand:
I did read your OP … you have a problem with the fact that missing a burst skill is punishing in that it removes adrenaline AND that missing a burst skill doesn’t cleanse with Cleansing Ire.
Essentially, you’re complaining that traiting for landing burst skills is wasted if you don’t land your burst skills.
I was not complaining about Mesmer mechanic. I was showing you the parallels. Here’s another one … you can’t control what happens in that time between casting Earthshaker and when it actually hits … neither can Mesmers with their illusions. In fact, that can be a drastically longer time depending on the illusions’ distance from the target … but you don’t see people complaining that their illusions shouldn’t be consumed when they miss those shatters.
@silentnight warrior.2714
You are quite correct that Mesmer can make use of stealth for a myriad number of things, but it doesn’t change that missing with their skills is punished just the same. The game is also supposed to be balanced around each class’s strengths and weaknesses. Each class does/doesn’t have things others classes have.
On a side-note: I too dislike burst from stealth as I prefer more counterplay … but that’s a separate topic. Hit me up if you want to have a chat about it. I’ll rarely ever be against suggestions that support more counterplay.
@Shala:
Yep, I’m well aware of the ways to counter Mesmer skills. You do realize that the Torch cooldowns are both a base 30s cooldown while burst skills are a base 10 (about to be less). They also only remove a single condition, not up to 3. Sure, Cleansing Ire requires adrenaline … but between normal generation and Cleansing Ire giving it each time you’re hit it’s not that big of an issue adrenaline for burst skills. Otherwise Cleansing Ire wouldn’t be seen as nearly as strong as it currently is.
Cleansing Ire effectively allows you to cleanse 1 to 3 conditions twice in less than 10s; dependent on adrenaline-generation, of course. If you don’t realize that’s a bit too much without needing to hit, especially from a class that gains adrenaline when hit or hitting … and able to be immune to conditions (more ways after this Tues) … then I don’t think we can talk on the same level.
Heck, it isn’t like you can weapon swap every 5s to remove a condition … oh wait … another cleanse that is drastically lower CD than most, if not all, other cleanse options.
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Lol. First post didn’t snap at you. Nor did the second.
But you’re free to read it however you want and give whatever “reasons” you want for not providing support for your opinion.
I agree though, we don’t seem to disagree on what should be done with Fast Hands … unless you’re against the possibility of it being removed and Warrior rebalanced around no Fast Hands.
Care to provide some actual numbers for the direct damage?
I didn’t realize that 2K per tick bleeds were something that was thought of as weak. Care to elaborate on why in the world you think this?
I hope the newer players are noting who is always negative and not providing substance.
So a single class makes another single class less capable of camping in stealth …
But a single class having dominated the zerker meta versus all other classes was okay? :-p
It isn’t even a 50% up-time on the trait. Revealed for 8s by a class that is easily outrun by most Thieves … then 12s of it being on ICD.
I don’t think this is going to be as bad as many people are making it out to be. It seems more like when the Warrior community was complaining about losing adrenaline out of combat … blown out of proportion … similar to when utilities were added to the game that applied “Reveal” … tons of people were talking about how it was the end for Thieves … that didn’t happen.
… how about we playtest this for some time and then come back with some actual experience with it.
As it is … Thief has another class slower than it that can remove stealth … so avoid them like we do Medi Guards.
It’s much easier being countered by the Tortoise (non-Thief) than it is being countered by the Hare (Thief).
(edited by Sebrent.3625)
His point was that you have alternatives to Warrior’s Sprint that are just as good if not better.
That makes Warrior’s Sprint far less “required” than something like Fast Hands.
Puck, you’re feeding :-p
@OP:
This topic has been discussed to death. If you truly care about Rapid Fire, then feel free to dig up the actual good conversations where the numbers of ways to counter Rapid Fire were listed … it was quite an extensive list.
In one of those threads, I even did the math and showed how Thief’s Unload is superior in every way except for range … more DPS, more spammable, can ricochet, etc..
(edited by Sebrent.3625)
@Tragic Positive.9356:
Uh oh … do I have a convert to the Greatsword & Shortbow Moment of Clarity idea?! :-)
I think you might get more CC overall taking a pet with a faster F2 CD than the Hyena … though two Hyena’s providing CC can be nice. We’ll have to see how good/bad the BM Taunt is.
@Silentnight Warrior:
Aye, I worded that horribly.
I was trying to convey that Fast Hands doesn’t make a class mechanic go from “doing nothing” to “doing something”. While it and Illusionary Persona are both auto-includes, Warrior isn’t losing Adrenaline due to some stray AOEs/Cleaves while Mesmer is. So it’s a bit more important for the Mesmer to not have their class mechanic made non-functional in large fights if they don’t have a single GM trait. The presence or absence of Fast Hands doesn’t do anything like this.
I agree that IP on Warrior would be like allowing <10 adrenaline (0 bars) to function as 10 – 19 adrenaline (1 bar). Not really necessary … though, I would be curious about people’s opinions on that versus the adrenaline when-hit from Cleansing Ire (previously Embrace the Pain).
That being said, please don’t forget the parts of my posts that say that I agree.
Using ArenaNet’s logic for why they made IP baseline, that logic does apply to Fast Hands.
I think ArenaNet should either:
It’s been discussed to death … or is there some new point that has been brought up that makes this thought worth revisiting?
Please quantify that how Necro got better treatment than Ranger? I only see an opinion with nothing to support it.
Some people are still saying they “could” be if in some situations depending on the GM trait … many of us are saying “wow, they actually look worse now”.
Thinking that people that play multiple classes won’t push for fair treatment of classes is so asinine I don’t know where to begin. Playing multiple classes doesn’t mean you don’t want balance. It also doesn’t make sense that people wouldn’t want a class they play to be “good”. People care about the classes they play.
Have to say I’m sad that apparently we all have to continue suffering through posts that are “people that don’t agree with me obviously don’t main Ranger … that includes the devs” … there was a glorious lack of that the past few days. There was also a glorious lack of baseless posts … oh well … hopefully the new rangers have figured it out by now so the rest of us don’t have to deal with it as much.
I’m not a big fan of sigil of rage as I prefer more control over when I get Quickness … but I’m with you there …
Pet Swap for Might(x4), Fury, Swiftness, and Quickness … Rapid Fire.
Nice side-effect of using Quickness for Rapid Fire … Rapid Fire’s is a channeled ability so goes on cooldown at the end of the channel. Quickness causes it to channel more quickly so it will go on cooldown more quickly which means it will be off cooldown more quickly.
Enjoy :-)
For condition builds … 5 stacks of Bleeding/Poison will hurt … especially with 33%/25% damage … and poison stacking now.
Additionally, if people thought Sword+Torch & Axe+Dagger could evade a large amount … hello Quick Draw :-)
Double blast finishers from Horn in Water/Fire fields.
Double leap finishers from Greatsword/Sword in Water/Fire fields.
So many good options.
If you want to compare condition damage to power damage, you want to look at:
The duration of the fight will dictate which conditions will get their full durations and which will be “clipped short”.
Damage per cast matters because if you can do 2,000 damage from a 0.5s cast or 1,000 damage with that same cast time, you’ll do more overall damage with the 2,000.
If the meta actually moves to conditions, I can see spotter not being as mandatory. Otherwise, that extra precision for the entire party caters well to the zerk meta.
Is there something wrong with that opinion?
Is there something you disagree with there?Yeah, I’m done.
Why?
Because you’d only be happy with it being baseline?
You wouldn’t be okay with FH disappearing and Warrior rebalanced from there?
Both options would help with build diversity, which is the reason people are claiming they want it baselined.
If you are unwilling to explain in a logical manner, then I can’t help but wonder why you spoke up in the first place. Might as well have just posted “I want it baseline” as that is all you’re conveying.
If you’re wanting fixes to pets
Helps survivability and adds more “bite” to them.
Then we have Beastmastery which may fix some more given:
What is left?
AI improvements, if going to happen, are likely to come with HoT.
Many of us have already been doing quite well with pre-June-23rd pets.
Many of us will do even better with post-June-23rd pets.
If we get much better AI … prepare for your pet to get obese on the tears of your foes.
Have patience.
Yeah, I’m not seeing any reason to really take Rifle myself :-(
… maybe there is something we’re all missing, but my intuition isn’t showing it to me :-p
I’m getting really tired of people doing this each time there is a patch …
It’s pretty dumb.
Some classes need more/less each time around depending on what they solidly know and what they are still looking into.
We still don’t even know how good our Traps’ damage is going to be.
We still don’t know if the Spirit trait will be any good … if one of those spirits gives fury every 3s, that will be amazing in some scenarios with Remorseless.
We still don’t know how the meta is going to change.
If you look at some of the changes to Engineer … they were needed for quite some time.
… now, that all being said … if these recent Trap and Spirit changes aren’t that good … I hope whoever changed Mortar and Med Kit comes and takes a look at Ranger traps and spirits … maybe shouts too ;-) … or our lovely Mesmer/Necro dev … I love what he’s done with Mesmer.
(edited by Sebrent.3625)
I was just doing my dailies last night and a warrior was running a pre-patch zerk build with Runes of Strength that was 2/0/6/0/6 with Hammer & Mace+Shield. When he joined any fight it was a pain in the butt. Against good opponents, you’re likely to have to use your 1+ stunbreakers (build dependent, of course). Now when one of your opponents is already stretching that to the max with an kitten nal of CCs … it’s pretty (or painful).
I got to be on both sides of it as he and I chatted a bit between games and played together and against each other. It was awesome to have on your team. It was painful to have on the other team if they had a teammate with them. 1v1, I felt I could take him … but only if I didn’t waste my defenses on non-CC. Each stunbreak is a fix to making that mistake … but they have longer cooldowns than the Warrior’s CC so it’s best to not make mistakes.
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