Guild Wars 2

Wuselknusel.4082:

Well Sebrent, you do realise that you give me all the arguments I need. Do you think the other classes would find their AIs more enjoyable when they could control it like thee Ranger can? Would they enjoy it that much that they want to trade their current profession mechanic for this AI? I don’t think so. Which brings us back to the point that every other class mechanic is more potent than ours.

I don’t think that’s the case … except the Guardian thread does bring up one point which I’ll get to.

Do I think the other classes would find their AIs more enjoyable when they can control it like the Ranger can? Sure., since they are asking for it and being able to better control part of your character is generally welcomed.

I still think they’d have the same AI complaints we have since we all know the AI has its failings … but so does Internet latency … but we don’t complain for ANet to give us constant 10ms pings :-) (or maybe some do, I dunno how crazy some are, lol).

I have no clue if they’d want to trade their current class mechanic for it.

• I could see them being happy with Shield of the Avenger is place of their new projectile block in some situations where they didn’t need to be mobile, but it would still be inferior in various scenarios due to its lack of mobility when blocking projectiles … though superior when being flanked given that it’s a bubble instead of a wall.
• If all the weapons applied burning untraited, I could see some Guardians loving that more than Virtue of Justice.
• If they could have the bow and its cleanses, I could also see that replacing Virtue of Resolve

But now we’re replacing a mechanic with a whole bar of utilities that are currently coded as individual utilities. There are keybind issues (the summons and secondary actionvations), balance issues, etc. that pop up. Are we talking about the weapons are always up or is it more like a Mesmer Illusion mechanic? We are talking about 3 separate Spirit Weapon capabilities so it’s unclear. There’s quite a bit more if you wanted to go down this rabbit hole in detail.

Ultimately, you’re leaping from “I don’t think they’d like spirit weapons as a class mechanic” … to … “so I think ours class mechanic is the worst”. You’re leaping from your opinion of what other’s opinions would all be to a conclusion about our mechanic. Do you see how that isn’t really a proof but just an opinion?

Now, to the one thing I think they’d hate about having AI? It’s the same thing every class with AI hates about it … it gets “whoops’d” to death in large fights (zergs, some PvE content, etc.). Would they hate it less if they had the same controls and options Rangers do with their AI? Quite likely as our controls do give us greater capability to have our AI not get gibbed in some content; when possible … some content just doesn’t favor it at all, sadly.

My main two characters are my Mesmer and Ranger. I can show you how much worse being dependent on AI can be in various scenarios. If you play the living story part 2 as a Ranger and then as a Mesmer, you’ll see quite a difference.

I play ranger and it is so easy …

I kill men by the hundreds. I consume them with fireballs from my eyes and bolts of lightning from my butt.

Since you’re largely indifferent to conditions with your build, have you thought about trying Knight’s or Soldier’s gear with your build?

I feel like with your 4% crit chance that the ferocity from Valk is being largely wasted … though you do have two sigils of intelligence.

I don’t think anyone has actually recorded the data and then gone through it like frifox has done with Mesmer weapon skills and phantasms.

If you were to do it, I’d suggest

• do minimum 100 attacks per “session”
• for each pet family, do a “session” for 0pts in BM and for 6pts in BM … if you want to be really thorough, throw in sessions for pt amounts in between 0 and 6.

If you really want to do this though, I’d recommend waiting until after the upcoming big specialization, etc. changes as it will be a decent amount of work involved and you don’t want it to go to waste in the event that several things change related to what you just finished testing.

Aye, if the numbers don’t change … burning could be an enormous threat as 4,000 a second that ignores toughness … ouch.

That being said, ArenaNet keeps reminding us that numbers are still be tweaked … so that burning damage could change.

My prediction for burning/bleeding since both “just do damage is” … applications of bleeds will generally have a longer duration but do less damage per tick than burning while applications of burning will generally have a shorter duration but do more damage per tick than bleeding.

For example, I think we’ll probalby end up with something like:
10s of bleeding that does X damage per tick = 10X damage total.
5s of burning that does 2X damage per tick = 10X damage total.

We’ll see though … there are times ArenaNet does things and I’m a little baffled … but they have a better idea what direction they are going than any of us do … I think the upcoming Specialization Systems that we didn’t know anything about until recently is pretty good proof of that :-p

I’ve never seen anything wrong with Signet builds. I’ve just never felt inclined to play one. I think there was a build posted with a gameplay video in the past week or so of a dual melee ranger that was using a Might-stacking Signet build in WvW to good effect. I apologize for not being able to remember more than that though :-( … I think it was posted during part of a discussion about OH Axe and people disagreeing on how good/bad Path of Scars is.

Lol, if it wasn’t so sad I’d be sorry that your pride is still so hurt from the other thread that you’re now dragging that into here …

Let’s entertain this …

ArenaNet show’d that they didn’t intend for it to be a class mechanic nor as powerful as a class mechanic by:

• Not making it a class mechanic
• Not making it as powerful as class mechanics

I’d say by their actions they made that one pretty clear. If I hit a nail with a hammer do I have to tell you I did it or does the action not prove that I hit the nail with the hammer? Just curious.

Why does it have to be less powerful? Because ArenaNet made it that way. They are free to change it, but currently it is and there has been no evidence from ArenaNet that this diverges from their intent/design for it.

Here is a recent Minion Master thread discussing all sorts of Necromancer Minion issues … Flesh Golem falls under that category if that wasn’t clear. It mentions how Flesh Golem “gets stuck on pebbles”, “the charge easily misses”, etc. One person even comments on how it doesn’t have the attack commands like Ranger pets do.

• https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/necromancer/Calling-All-Minion-Masters

Here is a TenTonHammer article where he even mentions how Flesh Golem isn’t good … or, in his words, “Lich is currently the only good Necro Elite”. Feel free to peruse the comments as well.

• http://www.tentonhammer.com/editorial/guild-wars-2-elite-skill-discussion

Here is a recent post with several guardians discussing why they don’t like the Spirit weapons … that covers both Guardians not liking them and the reasons why.

• https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/guardian/Making-Spirit-Weapons-Viable

I’m especially amused reading that thread again after you said how “many Guardians love them and they are quite powerful”. Want to throw out an arbitrary % again to go with that?

Feel free to view their lack of usage in the various metas as well

• http://metabattle.com/wiki/MetaBattle_Wiki

If you’d like to find more evidence of what I said, feel free to dig a bit more and you’ll find older posts on those same Guardian and Necromancer topics … quite similar to how if you dig through the Ranger forums you’ll find so many topics on “Rangers suck”, “Rangers are OP”, “Ranger Pets Suck”, “Ranger Pets are Fine”, etc..

So I believe I just provided what was needed. Now, feel free to move on with your life.

0/0/4/4/6 or 0/0/6/2/6 are your tanky friends :-)

I believe I’ve shared those ones already with you, right?

Sadly, with Aussie + Wireless, I see your issue … but I think that is a very large ping issue as opposed to an issue with the class overall. Heck, even with a shout warrior you’d be having some trouble there against any condition build that is good at continuous re-application (/cough, Ranger).

I believe you’re right because when I looked at my Moa pets it was only 130 and my inquisitive nature cried a bit inside … nothing to play with.

Aye, you have a good point there Wondrous. If the Specialization system coming out tells us anything it’s that ArenaNet is good at keeping their yappers shut till they want to tell us what they have in store … perhaps they will be surprising the heck out of us soon with the Ranger reveals :-) … one can hope. If nothing else we’re promised Traps, Spirits, Druid, Staff, and the new Specialization System … all sorts of good newness

Some of you have little clue about what needs to be proven and what doesn’t. Those are Tragic Positive’s opinions on those points. You can’t tell him whether he does/doesn’t think something is good/bad/something_else. If you saw me jumping on an opinion like I did that 70% … then please do give me a smack. Otherwise, learn the difference.

Pet AI not being perfect doesn’t mean it isn’t okay as a mechanic. There are flaws to each system.

ChillyChinaman touched on something that we discussed quite thoroughly well over a year ago in these very forums … Ranger has access to several cripples, chills, immobilizes, etc.. A CC’d target is very easy for a pet to hit and allows the pet to do exceptionally good damage … hence why you’ll see me point out in the other discussions on these forums that any improvements need to be balanced so that a pet isn’t some unavoidable, hard-hitting DoT. Let’s be honest, it’d likely be OP if it couldn’t be shaken off.

Now, as far as a pet avoiding hits just because a person moved … that is a pain in the butt and I would argue that that is the main issue … one that has a whole thread (and several over the years) dedicated to it.

I think if that one issue was fixed, the only other gripes would be the pet survivability in large zergs and some PvE content … issues Mesmer suffer from as well with both Illusions and Shatters (which need live illusions).

I like Wuselknusel’s ideas. Shouts affecting allies would help make rangers less of a selfish class which would help us in getting into the various metas.

Pets taunting enemies … well that is a trait if you want it … coming with the new specialization system.

Pets can actively block projectiles, but it takes intelligent maneuvering by the Ranger. I’m not a fan of things that just automatically do the work for you, so I personally think this is fine.

Pets can grant buffs to you and your allies. I think their biggest problem right now is that the ratio of cast time + cooldown compared to the duration of the boon is actually pretty kitten poor compared to those supplied by other classes … even when you trait for it.

Pro-tip on Rangers … the only damage we have that has a lower coefficient is direct damage. A Ranger’s conditions do the same damage as everyone else’s. So put 2 and 2 together here and realize that you can do the same damage as the other condition builds (actually more with your Poison) AND have the pet’s damage to supplement.

@Curunen.8729:
All I can really say to that is “I concur”. You summed up those condi-shatter options nicely.

I will be curious to see if we see the rise of condi-interrupt builds. The traits for it are there. Some friends of mine already do something similar to what I think that would be like, but as a duo of Condi-Engi and Venom-Share Thief. They Basilisk Venom/Daze/Etc. the target while also loading them with confusion. Since most classes don’t have a combine stunbreak/cleanse ability AND they can cover the confusion with other conditions, their victims are stuck between (1) using a stunbreak and eating damage from several stacks of confusion (2) Eating the full duration of each disable which much means more damage applied to them in both direct and condition form.

I could see an condi-interrupt build doing that. “Hello gent, you’re about to alternate being being dazed/stunned so you can’t do anything and having enough confusion on you that you don’t want to do anything. Let’s play.”

Solo where?
Open World? One of the best.
Solo dungeons? Yep, good there too.

If you do decide on PvP…
Solo roaming in WvW? Also quite good. Some would say one of the best.
Solo sPvP queue? If you’re good it’s fine; good even.

Belittling someone for their ping seems pretty stupid to me … it’s not like any of us has control over how good/bad our ISP is. Many of us are stuck with whatever ISP has monopolized our area.

Here’s a topic on spirits. I have a post there with bullets detailing some points.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/ranger/what-exactly-is-wrong-with-Spirits/first

I’m curious about a Condition build with both Illusions, Dueling, and Chronomancer.

• Illusions and Chronomancer is going to help make our cooldowns even less. Dueling too if you take Pistol and/or they improve the Sword trait.
• Dueling and Illusions are going to provide us with more condition application … Chronomancer too with slow … though that doesn’t do dmg.
• Dueling and Chronomancer can help with illusion generation … as can lower cooldowns, of course.

I’m likely to try to swap in Chaos at sometime because Staff and Chaos Armor … so good.

Well, I disagree with you on various AIs being as good/strong/powerful/useful/versatile as our own.

I also disagree that only 2 of our signets are good.

It’s well-known that I’m not a fan of our shouts in their current incarnation …though I dislike our spirits more (man those suck).

If you want to compile that list … please do. I think that would be a far more beneficial thing than this thread.

Ah, listening to those I feel like if you kept on going I’d hear some Green Day and Nirvana as well.

Despite 3 of the 4 I linked having lyrics, I most often listen to things without lyrics … such as:

• Two Steps From Hell – Heart of Courage
• Two Steps From Hell – Protectors of the Earth

I read and hear enough words every day when coding, in meetings, from email, on the forums, etc. … so I often prefer to just get a nice “feel” from music.

Lol. I can say Hell but I can’t say forty-five seconds without spelling it completely out

The other classes AI isn’t as responsive to commands as ours are.
The other classes don’t have nearly the same controls we do over their own AI.
The other classes can’t “pet swap” before their AI dies.
The other classes don’t have the variety of options we do when it comes to a pet.

That backfire only happens if a player makes a bad mistake. If you have a problem with players making mistakes, then you should also complain about people take condition damage with power weapons and power with condition damage weapons.

You make assertions about Ranger builds, signets, shouts, etc. but don’t provide any details. Just saying “this is bad” doesn’t really provide much to discuss. Perhaps you could elaborate on the “why” for each of your opinions.

Otherwise all we can say is “I agree/disagree”.

Archon, you mention having to trait 6 into NM. Are you not familiar with how the new Specialization system is going to work?

With the new system:

• you don’t have trait points
• you can pick 3 of the 5 (6 when HoT is released) specializations.
• you can all of the minor traits from each of the 3 specializations you picked
• you get to pick 1 of 3 Adept, 1 of 3 Master, and 1 of 3 Grandmaster traits … no mixing … from each specialization.

Seeing it makes it easier to understand:

• http://dulfy.net/gw2traits#build=AgUBqAKoA6g~

Wait … what?!

I never bothered to look at the range on the Moa’s. Between their lackluster (to me) stats and cast times on their F2s along with boon duration versus cooldown … I never paid much attention to them.

I think you just pointed out some testing that needs to be done … though I think I recall them having more of an attack animation problem than others … we’ll see. Been a while since I pulled out a Moa for any reason other than screwing around.

Why, if I may ask, is your ping so horrid?

Aye. Since you have seen them several times, I assume you do to :-p

What else? Bunch of Rangers done roaming about. Sit down and share a little :-)

Give some names if not links fellas (ladies too). It doesn’t have to be your whole music collection … I know I didn’t share even 1% of mine :-p

@Puck:
Aye. I wouldn’t say we’re in a good place given that we’re not in any of the metas … but I would say that we are far from bad. Us not being in the metas is due to ArenaNet allowing a handful of classes to dominate all metas which leaves little room for the rest of us to fight over.

Heck, we have 40% of the meta in sPvP and PvE taken up by one class (the meta doubles up on Elementalists in both sPvP and PvE and those are 5-man groups … 2/5 is 40%)

If you find it, please share :-)

I’d be quite interested, and I’m sure others would be as well.

I only recall them constantly jokingly “playing dumb” about conditions stacking … things like “you know, that’d be great in a world where poison/burning stacked … if such a world existed, of course”

@Puck:
Probably the same as the other such threads we seem to be getting a recent influx of …

… they aren’t doing well as Rangers so they want to blame it completely on the class.

Because bad things are never that person’s fault … always someone else’s.

Figured why not get a change of pace from the latest gripes … and a distraction from our “wait and see” with what’s going to happen with all our expected changes. Plus I’m curious what you other Rangers are listening to. I’ve enjoyed several times on TeamSpeak where those I’m playing with and I are just linking music to each other while we do something “less involved” in-game.

I find this song to be a good one for Ranger’s since many of us enjoy our class despite it currently not being in any of the metas …

• John Butler Trio – Better Than

No Vocals but awesome guitar-playing … if you play, here is something to aspire to.

• John Butler – Ocean

There are no instruments being used here … I always find that fact quite cool.

• Pentatonix – Daft Punk
• Pentatonix – Love Again

I’ll stop with these 4 for now … plenty of other stuff, but it’s likely better known stuff.

Nashville, TN bud … Google Fiber is coming here :-p Come get you some.

Wuselknusel.4082:

Well, would you say a permanent Flesh Golem for the Necro is stronger than his current mechanic?

Flesh Golem wasn’t designed to be as powerful as a class mechanic … so no. Also, many Necromancer hate Flesh Golem even as an elite. Necro AI-dependent mechanics make Ranger pets look like Einstein.

Wuselknusel.4082:

Would you say that a permanent summoned weapon would be stronger for the Guardian than his Virtues?

No, as, again, they were not designed to be as powerful as a class mechanic. Also, most Guardians currently don’t like their weapons (for good reasons). Similarly, Guardian Spirit Weapons make Ranger pets look like Einstein.

Wuselknusel.4082:

Would you say one permament clone for the Mesmer is stronger than his current mechanic? No?

First off, know the class. A clone is a weak piece of paper that does practically no direct damage (see: single digit).
Second, no because a single clone (or even phantasm) was designed to be as powerful as three clones/phantasms AND shatters.

Wuselknusel.4082:

I thought so.

Thought what? That people wouldn’t think that your horrible examples were good?

Wuselknusel.4082:

But please, tell me your version of the story. Why are the pets not the worst profession mechanic? What profession mechanic is even worse?

Pet stats are independent of my stats, so I can go full tank and still have a solid source of damage.

Pets can still operate even when I’m LOS’d, CC’d, down. This means that unless both the pet and I are taken out, I’m not 100% LOS’d, CC’d, down.

Pets can body block non-piercing projectiles.

Pets can take aggro.

Pets provide additional CC and damage.

Pets provide additional utilities via their F2 skills.

• Are pets perfect? Nope.
• Are Mesmer illusions perfect? Nope.
• Are Warrior burst skills perfect? Nope … still getting tweaks … even had to change traits with the upcoming Specialization to get some Warrior builds to even use burst skills.
• Is Necro Deathshroud perfect? Nope … please see the latest videos, etc. talking about how Necro Life Force + Deathshroud don’t scale well.

Everything has its pros and cons … use more brainpower figuring these out and how to work with them and you’ll do better than you will making bad comparisons.

Stop selling yourself short :-p

I thought I’d never be able to do jumping puzzles again when I went from Asura to Norn … it just took a long time to get used to it.

I see this as being no different … maybe easier ;-)

No one ever got better by starting with “I can’t”.

I mostly agree. An alternative would be for them to have methods of invuln/block that are sufficient. Invulns that can be cast while stunned/dazed/KD’d (ex: Mesmer Distortion) are great for this. Blocks are mainly to counter a lack of condition removal for immobilize as I’m unaware of a block that can be used while dazed/stunned/KD’d.

I’m a big fan of such blocks/invulns if their cooldown isn’t drastically longer than the cleanse / stunbreak since they can be far more versatile (ex: cleanse is less useful if no conditions … block is always useful as you will be attacked :-p)

I think 80 is far too small. Current attack ranges are 130. To account for targets moving, I like the earlier idea of increasing the range. 180 or 240 could be good starting places … though if someone could analyze how quickly someone can move with Swiftness in 0.5 second and 1.0 second, we could have a much better idea.

lighter.2708:

in PvP the class who have a solid position since release is thief and engineer.

I think you mean just sPvP.

In WvW GWEN was:

• Guardian
• Warrior
• Elementalist
• Necromancer

Guardian, Warrior, and Elementalist are solid parts of the WvW, sPvP, and PvE metas as opposed to Thief and Engineer who are only part of the sPvP meta … and have not always been a part of it.

I concur with you and again suggest that a nice way for ArenaNet to implement these traits would be for them to work both:

• On-interrupt
• On removing defiance (possibly PvE only)

Stun and Knockdown are not conditions.

Where you and I disagree is that you say you “can’t” while I say you “can, but it’s unforgiving of mistakes”.

@Aomine.5012:

• I didn’t claim pet damage was reduced by 70%. You made that claim.
• The patch notes say the changes were not 70%. I found that evidence/proof.
• It’s on you if you want to prove that the patch notes are wrong.
• You made the original claim. Prove the original claim … you still haven’t done this.

As far as the shortbow nerf, most Rangers are well aware of it. Please see my posts. Not once did I dispute the shortbow “graphics fix” that ended up being a slight attack speed nerf.

Do you see what the people that claimed the shortbow graphics fix was a nerf did? They went and got proof. They made they claim. They got the proof to support it. Very simple. Go do that or don’t try to compare yourself to people who actually do the legwork to support their claims.

I’m not crazy about exact detail. I expect people to have evidence to support any “facts” they state. Big difference.

Please show me where I said “words don’t mean much”. If that’s what you got from me saying you need to provide proof, then it’s quite obvious what the problem is … though I’m pretty sure it’s been quite obvious what the problem has been for several posts now. The closest would be me saying that yours don’t hold much weight given that you say things without anything to support what you say.

Compare that to the words I used to show that your math was wrong. Those words held greater weight as they stated facts based on the well-known principles of Mathematics.

If you want to continue trying to salve your wounded pride over your 70% pet damage claim being proven wrong … go right ahead … but provide some actual proof. Something else being wrong doesn’t prove that those patch notes are wrong. The patch notes do state that you’re wrong and we have no evidence that they are a “lie”.

Heck, do you think people didn’t test those numbers when they came out? People tested the shortbow and that was a much harder thing to eyeball than a large % change to pet damage.

What am I derailing? You just made another claim and provided nothing. I replied directly to your last post.

What proof have I not provided? You said they nerfed pet damage by 70%. I found the patch notes that say they didn’t.

@Puck:
Why do you think the poison and burning stacks are going to cap out at 3?

If you’re going to now say “ArenaNet could have been lying about the damage changes in their patch notes” … then provide some proof.

You are making more and more claims kiddo without a penny’s worth of anything to support anything you’ve said.

@McWolfy:
Is that in reply to me? I thought I had those as two separate options … the Selfish/Support.

Pre-confusion nerf …

• It was the best way to kill bad players who just skill spam … so gratifying.

Post-confusion nerf …

• It allows me to take more survivability stats.
• Between [Illusionary Retribution] and [Maim the Disillusioned], all of my shatters are providing condition damage as opposed to a power build where the offense is mainly Mind Wrack with some clutch interrupts with Diversion from time to time
• It allows our most damaging clones (Staff and Scepter) to be even bigger threats
• It makes sharper images even more dangerous

@Heimskarl: Heck, why not … I’ve never done the comparison, but my intuition tells me that the hit detection for that would take less CPU cycles than it would for a non-circular attack … if unclear, I’m assuming the PBAOE would just be a sphere from the current location of the pet.

@Aomine.5012:
Do you see me discrediting everyone in the forums who has an opinion? Nope. There’s nothing to discredit when it comes to opinions. Everyone has them and they are free to them.

Do you see me zero in on unfounded claims like your 70% that you threw out? Heck yes you do.

Do you know what the difference is?

• One is an actual opinion given as an opinion.
• The other is some stated as a fact … in your case, an arbitrary number you pulled from your nethers … thrown out with nothing to back it up. In fact, in the case where you provide something that is false, one could even call it a lie if they felt so inclined to be that harsh.

I don’t know why you continue to argue this.

• Did you say it was 70% reduction? Yes.
• Did the patch notes show that you were wrong? Yes.
• Did you say that a 50% reduction could reduce it by more than 50%? Yes.
• Did basic mathematics show that you were wrong? Yes.

I fail to see what is left to debate there.
Check your pride and hide your keyboard for an hour.

Every class gets hate.

My only issue with Warrior isn’t actually with Warrior but with balance in the game overall …

3 classes have had solid positions in all metas in the game since release (Elementalist, Guardian, and Warrior) while the remaining 5 classes have been in states of fitting only one meta (barely in some cases) or none at all.

To be clear, I don’t want these three “dethroned” … I want the remaining 5 (soon to be 6) to be lifted up to that same level on the power curve for each meta.

As I said before for years now, I think Warrior is a model class for how things should be done in GW2.

• Warrior hard-hitting abilities have telegraphs so there is awesome counterplay when fighting against a warrior.
• Warrior has several options for its playstyles in that it can do Power/Condition, Selfish/Support, Glassy/Tanky, Mobile/Not, etc. etc. so Warrior alone can be fun to play as well as useful for all sorts of groups.

I think anyone hating on warriors isn’t using their brain as much as they should at that given time.

@FatRaKoon:
Aye, you should pity my wife. She has to deal with me and my clones (my 2 sons).

From your post I think we’re still at that point where yes, Fast Hands is quite powerful and featured in most PvP builds in order to be viable, but we don’t have anything that says “yes it is required” and we don’t know how things will be in the future … so that seems like a result of:

• It is too early to be saying Fast Hands needs to be baseline … agreed?

I see what you’re saying with the sigils, but I have to again ask if the power gained from that is required or just very nice to have (I, personally, love the heck out of it … makes me sad to not have it when I’m on my other classes … aside from Engineer/Ele).
——-

@YuiRS:
I’m not a fan of anything that is some sort of “spam”. Anything that caters to that sort of gameplay is likely bad in my book. This is because I see “spam” as the opposite of “intelligent use”. “Spam” is using it whenever it’s available/off cooldown. “Intelligent use” is using it when it is ideal to do so … which, no, I don’t accept “whenever off cooldown” as a stretch that fits this.

Heck, if something is intended to be spammed whenever it is off cooldown, they should just make it some passive with an ICD that occurs every X seconds …

Spamming is bad … we should hope the game continues to move away from any sort of spamming. My opinion, of course.

What is it about the Fast Hands + Sigils that you feel is required for fighting some specific builds? You left it too general for me to really discuss this much with you. All I can say with the current information is that in the case where you have some builds for class X requiring something in order to be viable against some builds for class Y … that doesn’t require that something to be baseline. Now, if you require that something in order for a weapon, utilities, etc. to “not suck” … then you have an argument … which is what ArenaNet has done with many of the traits they are baselining.

Ultimately we don’t all agree on what is required for something to be viable in a given scenario, but I think we can get close enough … especially if we continue having a good discussion like this :-)

I’m not sure what it is that you think the Warrior is incapable of bringing that other Zerker builds are as you did not specify :-/ Surely it wasn’t damage as I’ve always said that I think warrior scales better than several other classes in group situations because it is designed around hitting hard but with telegraphs so if there is additional CC to hold someone down, they are going to meet the Warrior pain-train. …

side-note: I love using an Interrupt Mesmer build with a Warrior partner … there are few better ways to set someone up for a kill than having them dazed/stunned and immobilized :-)

Are you asking for a part of Cleansing Ire to be made baseline? The part where you gain adrenaline when hit? If so, I think that’s another entirely different topic aside from being a trait that is also becoming largely part of Warrior PvP builds to a degree that some could similarly claim that it’s becoming required.

Personally, for some weapon sets I think that’d be OP baseline while for others I can see why people would feel that Adrenaline when-hit would feel required.

Ultimately, I think we don’t have nearly enough information to make any informed decisions on whether or not Warrior actually needs anything baseline at the moment. Agreed?

Heck, Warrior is still quite solid in all 3 metas. Everything else is just QoL improvements like improving build diversity. It’s a much better position than other classes that are barely in one meta or in none at all.

How is that “experience” proof for itself? By that logic, these threads where people’s “experience” tells them that Thieves can one-shot anyone would result in Thief damage being nerfed to unintelligent levels … because despite their “experience”, they are wrong.

Your claim that pet damage was reduced by 70% is another example where despite discussing your “experience” you were horribly wrong … followed up by being horribly wrong about a % damage reduction being more reduction than the % specified.

Furthermore, just look at the other parts of the conversation in this thread … people’s experiences differ despite playing the same class in the same game.

This is why we have facts and we have opinions. Some of those opinions are backed up by facts. Some are not. Guess which have more weight.

You tell me to actually do the research, testing, etc. myself … yet where is yours for your claims? If you want to just keep score … you have 1 claim to 0 research/proof. I have 1 counter-claim to 1 research/proof … 0% to 100%.

You are correct that you don’t have to provide it … I stated this before … just don’t be unhappy when people point out that you have no proof and then dismiss what you have to say because of your lack of proof … or worse, proof that shows you’re wrong thereby harming your credibility.

@Swagger:
What is the thread about? The issues with Ranger pets.

Have some people made claims that a problem is that pet damage is 70% worse than before? Yes, they have.

Is there patch note history that shows that this 70% is horribly incorrect? Yes, there is.

Did someone try to then say that a 50% reduction would be even more of a reduction than 50%? Yes, they did.

Is that assertion about 50% reduction reducing it by more than 50% Incorrect? Yes, it is.

What part of this flow is difficult to follow?

Let me requote this because you obviously didn’t understand a thing…

If you want me to look up the facts for every claim you people make, then, by your logic, I could claim to you that ArenaNet said that pets will turn into flying mounts and you’d be obligated to find it to prove me wrong. Can’t find it? Look harder. See the conundrum?

If you can’t provide proof for claims, then the claims don’t hold much weight. It’s very simple. Provide some quality proof, or be content with what you say not being taken as fact.

As others have said before in several threads … the burden of proof is on the one making the claim.

Your numbers are incorrect as well. If an attack does 4,000 damage against 3500 armor … it was already reduced by a % by the armor. If you know anything about math, there is this awesome thing called the Associative Property in math. So if I have

• [ (DMG * reduction) * change]

It is the same as

• [ (DMG * change) * reduction ]

Let’s use arbitrary but concrete numbers to drive this point home.

• (5000 * 75%) * 50% = 3750 * 50% = 1875 damage
• (5000 * 50%) * 75% = 2,500 * 75% = 1875 damage

But you’re going to say I should have used division somewhere, eh?

First, X * 50% is the same as X / 2.
Second, you could do the exact same thing with the associative property

So, in your example, that 4,000 damage done to a target with 3,500 armor … a 50% reduction will only be a 50% reduction … it will do 2,000 damage.

Here are my problems with your posts:

• You make claims and don’t back them up … you lay the burden of proof on the people that question your claims … I’ve explained very clearly in very simple terms why the burden of proof is on the person that makes the claim
• You don’t seem to have an understanding of basic math
• You pull stuff out of thin air (or worse)

How exactly do “people know there was a big change” … really? Because then you should’ve been able to pick out that information and been correct about it from the start. Apparently not.

As far as getting nerfs all the time … please check out those patch notes. They are freely available.

I know it’s so very easy to run your mouth without actually getting the facts straight … but it’s useless and reflects very poorly on you.

As far as your totally out of place, unwarranted, snarky, little “finally some research” comment … please do actually look around the forums. If there are people actually doing the research for their claims … you’ll find I’m one of them. Here’s one from probably before you started playing the game.

• https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/ranger/Beastmastery-Math/first

Here’s just a simple one that was more recent:

• https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/Mesmer-Math-Heals/first

Do you know why you’ll see some of us “clash” on topics and still respect each other? Because, ultimately, we resort to actual facts and logic. We use these things to support the claims that we make.

This is all basic and simple stuff both my sons were taught before grade school …

With regards to your question directed at Eurantien, please look at the Mesmer meta at the high levels of PvP. It doesn’t have any condition clears at all. It is dependent on its teammates for clears (hello Shout* Warriors, Elementalist, Guardians, etc.)

As far as the question directed at me … I’d ask ArenaNet why those 3 classes are always solidly part of all metas in the game, but Ranger can’t even get its nose in the door in the high level metas … but the Specialization changes may be there answer to trying to solve this … I can see the meta possibly shifting quite a bit depending on how the Specializations pan out as well as the changes to stats only from gear (no longer from trait point allocations).

You could extend that question beyond Ranger and conditions to many other things … look at poor necros in PvE where they are doing the same or worse damage as the “3 kings of all metas” but then provide so much less utility, group damage increases, etc. that it’s very sad.

In a condition heavy meta, in a 1v1 you have a chance if you are very good at avoiding the primary condi loads via blocks, dodges, etc.. Without cleanses, mistakes are very unforgiving. The fact that condi builds can be more tanky than power builds means that you are likely going to have a more extended fight so there are often more opportunities for such mistakes to happen. It’s hard/difficult, but not impossible.

Beyond 1v1, you need teammates to compensate for your lack of condition removal just like Mesmers … unless you decide to bring condi removal.

I wouldn’t mind having more options. I think EB is garbage though so don’t really care what specialization line it is in.

I appreciate borya’s work, though I think some of those numbers may be inflated by things like Dogged March and Leg Mods. Even so, it does paint a better picture for us. It wouldn’t hurt to have a few more options for condition cleanses … especially since ours are selfish while those of other classes are often cleansing them and nearby party members.

@Aomine.5012
I figured that you weren’t going to look up the posts to try to support your claims … because people like you never do … so I went and wasted my own time digging through the patch notes.

Here is the first instance of pet damage changes I found going backwards from most recent to least recent game updates.

• https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Game_updates/June_2013

The worst decreases were 50% to [Armor Fish: Bite], [Eagle: Lacerating Slash], Feline: Maul.

• Bite is an auto-attack
• Lacerating Slash is not their auto-attack but a specific Bird’s (Eagle) F2 ability.
• Maul is not their auto-attack but an uncontrollable (by the player) non-auto with a 20 second cooldown.

Now, here are some facts … pointing that out since what a fact is seems unclear…

• Nothing was as high as 70%.
• None of these constitutes a 70% damage decrease for pets.
• Not all pets were affected.
• Even the 50% damage reductions are not a 50% overall damage reduction as they are for single skills, not all attack skills for those given pets.
• Some pets had some of their attack damages increased.

Anyone else want to pull some number out of their butt and not back it up? It really does make you look like a champ, let me tell you…

As an aside … all those people that say “Ranger never gets any love” are fooling their selves. If you just browse through the patch notes, you’ll see all sorts of buffs for us for all sorts of traits, abilities, etc. throughout the years.

@Tragic Positive:
I’d say you summed up the state of pets fairly nicely.

I 90+% agree … I withhold the 10% as it depends on what you’d say if you elaborated on any of the points … because I’m “that guy” :-D