Guild Wars 2

Half solution depending on what you’re aiming for. I agree to Fast Hands and Cleansing Ire baseline for the ease of future balancing.

If you still think those two traitlines are auto-include, give “why”. Right now you are just posting your opinion with none of the reasoning as to why it is still your opinion even at this point.

Likewise I’m still waiting to hear about Warrior’s Sprint. Other’s have given you many arguments why it isn’t “needed”. You have not provided any counter points. I currently agree with the others that it is not “needed”.

If you’re going to just continue spouting your opinion without supporting it with anything, don’t be surprised when you’re ignored. I’m tired of my time being wasted reading opinions without logical reasoning.

Honestly, the only part of WvW Tournaments that I care about is the weapon skins. Without those I have zero interest in it.

Honestly, I wish they’d stop creating traits that give a +100% effectiveness to a skill/mechanic. It makes it hard to balance. That’s my biggest beef with Steal-related changes.

How exactly do you balance something when it can be half/double effective?

But then the list of ways to counter Phantasm damage wouldn’t be nearly as long, StickerHappy :-p … <sarcasm>we can’t have that</sarcasm>

Incompetence? You mean like what is shown by replying to a thread when you don’t know the current state of it or what is even currently being discussed now? Amusing.

BlackTruth … it’s obvious from your post that::

• You have not been reading the thread
• hence you have no clue what the current state of the thread is

Why do I say this? Because:

• I agreed to both Fast Hands and Embrace the Pain being baselined … even repeated myself several times now because people like you give the impression that “reading is hard”
• You are acting like I’m arguing against Fast Hands being baseline … even though my last post mentioned it being baselined and was asking about other traits … even though I agreed to Fast Hands being made baselined … heck my last several posts have mentioned Fast Hands being baselined.

If you aren’t going to read the thread, you are quite unlikely to contribute anything meaningful. To be bluntly honest, I’m not surprised … except that you didn’t try to plug your stream in this thread.

Now, if you want arguments why it isn’t required … read the thread … but evidence shows you quite likely wont do that … I already provided what you asked for earlier … but it is moot given that it has been agreed on for a while that Fast Hands should be made baseline; just for other reasons (ease of balancing moving forward).

@Leonhardt.8164:
Gasp Blasphemy!

Sir, I believe we need to solve this with fisticuffs :-p

Have at you!

Side-note … same Leonhardt I’ve recently run into a few times in PUG sPvP while doing dailies?

I don’t think so. I could see that being useful in dungeons and any fight where you have more than one opponent.

That being said, I don’t think we need it. As I said before, we’ll need to see how the combination of Alacrity and Persistence of Memory (Illusions trait) work together when we see the final numbers and get to actually playtest it.

Incorporating phantasms and shatters is all about not interrupting the sustained damage of the phantasms just living. Given that Phantasms attack when resummoned, it is about figuring out how to benefit from this via shattering and resummoning instead of them simply attacking every X second(s).

Do you have any way to show that even if Fast Hands was made baseline that Discipline would still be a must-have because of Warrior’s Sprint and Versatile Rage.

I think you still don’t understand the difference between “needed” and “nice to have” … or “balance”.

As far as Warrior’s being mobile … as was explained to you numerous times by other people, Warrior already has plenty of access to Swiftness and movement abilities on their weapon sets.

@Juba:
So now you’re asking for 2 additional traits to just be made baseline?

I see no logic whatsoever supporting you desiring these and others warriors have also said that Warrior Sprint is not required at all.

I see nothing other than greed supporting your desire for these other traits to be baselined as well.

@Sadrien
I agree. I’m not advocating Cleansing Ire being baseline. I’m advocating that it have Embrace the Pain taken back out of it and only Embrace the Pain be made baseline; again, for the sake of ease of balancing moving forward.

@Cygnus:
Heimskarl has suggested something like that earlier in this thread. It could accomplish roughly the same though it would still be technically harder to balance around then just making it baseline or removing it completely. It would definitely be an improvement though.

Interesting and concerning.

Kudos to you for looking into this. Did you happen to record the tests? If so, can you please share?

I think several of us would do well to do the same and look at it as well and record it. The more attention it gets, the more likely it is to be fixed … and with all the code changes coming, now could be the ideal time for this to get changed too … there is already evidence of ArenaNet looking at pet stats.

What is wrong with hips?!

Many famous women who are heralded as being extremely attractive/sexy have a shapely body. That’s part of where ‘dem curves’ comes from. That includes the hips, hence “the hourglass”. For example, look at Sofia Vergara.

This all said, plenty of ways for a woman to look attractive and it’s always in the eyes of the beholder.

I think we have different tastes in women :-p … mine probably matters less since I’m married … my taste is down to 1 woman ;-)

@Atra Culpa:
Traitor! … on multiple levels :-p

Quickness on pet swap is so nice … I loved when it was so easy to get as a Ranger … used to be a minor :-(

• It’s extra damage.
• It’s a faster rez of an ally
• It’s a faster spike of a downed foe
• It’s a faster activation of a mechanic
• It’s a faster activation of any other skill that didn’t fall into the “extra damage”

Sword + Axe is current meta for PvE, so it will work. The issue is you don’t want to have auto-attack set on Sword because it locks you out of dodging when you need to … something we’ve been asking for a fix for for a long time now :-/

As such, you’ll likely be carefully (but quickly) pressing the key for your auto-attack throughout each fight.

I do recommend getting a gaming mouse.

I have a naga … it’s my 2nd one … I don’t recommend it … I’m starting to get very annoyed with the mouse drift issue which google tells me is a very common issue with it. I don’t see articles on the g600 having that. I’ve also since then compared the two and it seems each comparison I watch rates the g600 as the better mouse. I’m planning on replacing my naga with a g600.

You didn’t use Weapon Strength in your math, so it is incomplete and incorrect.

Please see the wiki for Damage calculation.

Damage = Weapon strength * Power * Skill coefficient / Armor

We can assume the target has the same armor and each class is running the same stats so same power as well … so we can reduce the comparisons to:

Weapon Strength * Skill Coefficient

Weapon Strengths (exotic/sPvP values)

• Warrior Greatsword = 995 – 1,100
• Guardian Greatsword = 995 – 1,100
• Ranger Longbow = 920 – 1,080
• Mesmer Sword = 905 – 1,000
• Necromancer Axe = 857 – 1,048

Work from there.

If you’re going to talk down to each other … you should probably make sure you’re doing the math right first.

I checked a few classes in the beta and none of them had the new traits … unless you count Revanant … their traits are technically new ;-)

@Ozzrel:
No, it is hard to balance around because there is an enormous difference to +0% to your weapon swap recharge and +100% to your weapon swap recharge. To balance around that, the +0% needs to be capable of the same power as the +100% … that is difficult … not just here but with other traits I’ve listed before that change the effectiveness of something(s) by such a large percent.

As I stated before when replying to Heimskarl’s idea, if it was changed so that it was a much smaller % difference, then it would be much easier to balance around. However, as I stated before, I think that would be more difficult to maintain balance with than just making it baseline … though simply because balancing for two states is harder than balancing for one state.

It being a “must have” has nothing to do with its ease/difficulty to balance. Players don’t care how easy/difficult a given skill/trait/sigil/rune is for ArenaNet to balance when they are making their builds. They care about how powerful they are. It being a “must have” has to do with its power.

Sol, do you have a link to your old PvP recordings as well?

@Aomine:
Perhaps I didn’t convey the purpose of those numbers well enough … or you’re reading too much into it?

What makes you think it is too “far-fetched” ? The only assumption made was “Ranger will flank 100%”. This is why I made sure to state that as the lower the % of time you can get that flanking the worse the shortbow is going to do in comparison (though its direct damage won’t care).

The statistics weren’t done to say “which weapon is better”. It was done to compare what Shortbow AA would look like compared to Warrior Sword AA if the Shortbow didn’t require flanking to apply its bleeds … hence going with 100% flanking with current mechanics.

If you want to compare specific stats, runes, sigils, builds … give they can be tested by any number of people.

I do like to not just crunch the numbers but play things in-game as well. It helps to have the numbers/facts and the feel of things … plus when getting the feel for it you might notice something that you didn’t account for in your numbers.

@Dand
If you’re saying it should be baseline because it’s a “must have” and/or because it is used by a majority of build … I’m going to disagree with you reasoning for why it should be made baseline … view past 7 pages for more details ;-)

Warrior Sprint, I agree (as have many others), that is does not need to be made baseline. Warrior has plenty of mobility options and +25% movespeed is far easier to account for when balancing.

Honestly, I’d love to see MH Axe make a comeback in the PvP metas. I find few skills as satisfying as Eviscerate when they hit. The animation, the sound, the damage number, and the crumpled opponent at your feet … though it is less nice when you’re the one that eats the evis :-p

/emote hides his own Cele bulds

You filthy Cele … get out of here Heimskarl :-p

@Ozzrel:
Perhaps. I was focusing more on the adrenaline gained when hit (hence Embrace the Pain) as opposed to the entirety of Cleansing Ire.

@Julie Yann:
Any you’re thinking of in particular or just all of them?

I would mind Steal a lot less if it:

• Had a telegraph like Thief’s Dagger+Pistol #3
• Didn’t give them every boon in the game when used on a Mesmer … crazy high uptime when traited for steal.

This doesn’t change any of that … so it doesn’t bother me …

I already mentioned my opinion on Preparations … if done the same way as GW1 you could only have one active at a time. If the new skill type was done the same as with the other classes, we’d get a heal, 4 utilities, and an elite of that skill type. These two things appear to conflict and leave you with less build diversity.

Going into more detail on the Ranger Shortbow vs Warrior Sword…

Looks like you’re right Heimskarl … Shortbow performs quite well compared to the Warrior sword and Ranger has a pet (when it hits :-p). So that could be OP … especially given that the faster attack speed caters more to on-hit/-crit sigils.

Aye, good points … and exactly why I’m now pretty convinced that for the sake of balancing moving forward:

• Fast Hands should be made baseline … balancing +0% swap speed versus +100% from a single trait is a bit crazy
• Embrace the Pain should be pulled out of Cleansing Ire and made baseline … against, balancing +0% adrenaline gain versus +100% (or greater) adrenaline gain from a single trait is a bit crazy … even more when that trait also provides such great access to cleanses.

These seem like the cleanest solutions and the easiest to work with moving forward. With them baseline, you don’t have to ask for every new skill, sigil, trait, etc. … how does this work with the +0% versus the +100% (for either or both) … and try to balance around both.

@Heimskarl:
If that’s what you want … come play Mesmer with me sometime after the Specialization changes and I’ll introduce you to the Dueling Specialization’s lovely on-crit traits … and ways to have 100% crit chance (or darn near it) :-D

Honestly, I wish they’d give my shortbow some love and remove the conditional on my condition application. It already applies a much lower duration bleed than other hybrid/condi weapons. Heck, Warrior Sword applies an 8s bleed and they have a trait that increases that by 50% … not to mention traits for more damage versus bleeding foes. Shortbow is a pauper compared to that.

A female Norn is a sexy woman.

A female human is a little girl.

Mesmer is a complicated class. We rely on using simple AI and shattering that AI. There is a delicate balance between the two that they are trying to achieve. This makes Mesmer a much larger P.I.T.A. to balance.

Any time Mesmer is balanced, the dev(s) responsible honestly deserve recognition as that is a feat. I can’t think of a class in an MMO I’ve played that looks as difficult to balance with its current mechanics as Mesmer.

DE baseline would be far less of a problem if it simply didn’t summon a clone if you had 3 phantasms out. Heck, I could see cases where some didn’t want it summoning a clone if you already had 3 of any kind of illusion out.

I think with Chronomancer’s Phantasm shatter trait, Alacrity, and the Phantasm Shatter trait in Illusions (though it likely needs a buff), we might have something we can work with even if Deceptive Evasions stays the way it currently is.

I think if the Spirits revamp is “good enough”, we’ll see quite an improvement just from that.

We’ll see about the Specialization system changes … Ranger is getting improved by it, but so is everyone else.

I dunno, Dub. I also see most high level fractal groups range the Shaman in the Grawl instance. It drastically helps with dodging those burning arrows and prevents one arrow from applying burning to everyone. We generally clump and melee the elements at 75%, 50%, and 25% though.

I dunno about MH Sword in that since it is more of a hybrid/condi weapon; as is Longbow.

I’m not so sure about how easy it would be to balance 4 weapon sets for a Warrior as they were not intended to be that way … there would need to be some counterbalance.

I think removing burst skills could be that counterbalance, but I’m not sure if that would be too much or too little. Replacing the F1 with F1, F2, F3, F4 for each weapon set would be in-line with what we’re seeing with the new Elite Specializations so far.

Let it gooo … let it gooooo … whatever the other lyrics to this song are …

I can understand, but if you’d at least read the recent ones (since I repeated myself multiple times), then you would have seen the agreement on baselining was already made.

Let’s move on and focus on the current conversation. Okay?

Apologies if I got that song stuck in your head … I could’ve gotten worse songs stuck there though >:-)

If people feel Hundred Blades is not currently high reward enough, then I imagine we can all agree that a proper (and the simplest) solution is just a numbers tweak on its damage.

@EnderzShadow:
Lol, I see. I’ll play too

You can just walk out of Hundred Blades, but you can’t reflect it or use projectile-block skills against it. You can’t just walk out of Rapid Fire but you can reflect it and use project-block skills against it. :-D

A pet/ally can’t stand in front of a Hundred Blades and take the damage for you. A pet/ally can stand in front of a Rapid Fire and take the damage for you (assuming no piercing arrows).

DAoC was much younger days for me. I was a Lurikeen Ranger named “Arbitrator Fate” and a member in <Clan Destiny> … was such fun times.

Shadowbane’s roots are coming back in the form of “Crowfall”. I’m keeping an eye on it as it will come down to GW2 or Crowfall for me in the next 1.5+ years. I’m quite wary though given how I left before for Wildstar which also had some very good ideas but was coded horribly. While GW2 has its issues, it is one of the better coded MMOs out there.

Torqiseknite.1380
That is a great example. Gutting a build is not the proper solution in my mind. I think that was a knee-jerk reaction from ArenaNet due to:

• How much time it would take to fix it
• The fact that they are already redoing traits, etc.
• How much of an impact it was seeming to have on sPvP and the matchmaking and ranking system they’ve been working on refining there.

Which somewhat warrants it, but it does leave a bad taste for everyone; ArenaNet included I’m sure.

@FatRaKoon:
I agree. Good points.

I think we’re all mostly on the same page and just discussing the finer points now to better understand who each other things … as well as clarifying any points that some people missed before … and occasionally still repeating ourselves due to people not reading :-p

I’d say this thread has gotten to a good place :-) Kudos to people’s perseverance.

@Heimskarl:
I like the idea behind reducing the difference between Warrior’s base Weapon Swap cooldown and Weapon Swap cooldown with Fast Hands. I feel that’s in the same vein as what I’ve been stating recently on what helps balancing. It would make Fast Hands less of a +100% increase in weapon swap capability which would make it easier to balance. I could see that being a viable solution to just baselining Fast Hands.

@FatRaKoon:
For when I changed my mind and why, look at point #7 in this post. I still don’t accept the logic that it is “necessary” or “required” … I’d be just has happy if Fast Hands disappeared (and Warrior compensated in some way(s), of course as I feel that would most definitely be necessary if you removed such a powerful trait as an option) as that would also accomplish the same in helping with being able to balance moving forward … I’ll touch on this again in my reply to Cygnus.

If something I’ve said isn’t clear related to “ease of balancing”, do please let me know and I’ll try to clarify. I know I’m not always the clearest person; especially when trying to quickly reply while waiting on some compiler or test suite to finish at work.

This old man is tired of “snapping” at those who don’t read. They probably don’t read the “snap” anyways so I’m wasting my time doing that just like I am repeating myself to most of them (thankfully some are reading at least some).

@Cygnus:
I already agreed to FH being baseline … for the reason that it would drastically improve the ability to balance Warrior moving forward and would likely be better accepted than just removing FH and balancing around that as, let’s be honest, we all love the heck out of Fast hands. It’s probably one of the best-loved traits people can take because it’s just that good (on paper and in game) and feels great to have in a build.

Just providing a build would not be adequate proof in either direction. I’ve discussed that to death. Please read the walls of text if you truly care why. Otherwise, I see no reason to repeat things for a 3rd / 4th / 5th / etc. time as each new person who refuses to read joins the thread.

@Ozzrel:
Precisely.

I already agreed with option C and I have yet to see anyone disagree with that agreement nor my reasoning for it … though some may just be happy with the idea of it being baselined and not care about “why” still :-p.

I agree on your logic for each of the options, A,B,C …

For Option A, I said this before, but you could also accomplish that diversity by providing some synergy of three non-Discipline traitlines that is so good that it warrants taking those three instead of Fast Hands.

You could also provide some synergy/trait that is as good as Fast Hands but conflicts with Fast Hands … motivating players to not take both. Now they choose between two equally strong options.

Option B, as I said in reply to Cygnus, would warrant some buffs to Warrior in some way as removing access to such a widely used and powerful trait would likely require recompense.

Heimskarl’s idea could help with Option A or be a completely different option in itself … but I think that could be the most difficult one to balance around as you’re still having to balance around a pretty sizeable difference in weapon swap capability and that interacts with:

• Weapon skill cooldowns
• Weaponset synergies
• Swap sigils
• Swap traits

@Bran, @Ozzrel, @Julie Yann:

It could benefit everyone if we all agreed on the definition of viable.

I’ve been going forward with viable as “able to compete on equal footing with other classes”. It is not viable if it puts you at an obvious disadvantage. Easy example: A build with power weapons but taking condition damage instead of power is easily identified as “not viable”.

I use optimal for “what best competes”.

One thing I think many people forget to look at when it comes to what is “most competitive” is that the meta plays a big part in that. For example, if shoutbow and elementalist weren’t such key parts of the current sPvP meta then I imagine we’d see more Condition builds making some headway into being part of the meta. It is

@Lazze:
Do we need to outclass the Warrior’s banners? If so, why?
I’m not saying I disagree, but I ask because I want your reasoning behind your opinion.

I could see one bit of logic behind it: Warrior also applies Vuln, Might, Fury to targets via For Great Justice, Greatsword, and Phalanx. Ranger can apply some Might, Vuln, and Fury but I don’t believe as much Might for the group as a Warrior. So to compete, they’d need to (1) Do comparable DPS and (2) Provide something else better than Warrior since Warrior provides Might better.

I completely agree about something needing to be done about Elementalist. Not only are they one of the 3 kings of the 3 metas (always part of every meta), but they are currently 40% of the comp in two of those metas (5-man groups in PvE and sPvP and the comp features 2 Eles on that team … 2/5 is 40%). I’m not asking that Elementalist be nerfed (unless that’s the only option), but something needs to be done so that the best answer isn’t “more elementalists”.

Meta works by burning enemies down quickly.

• Speeds up the run … faster kills, faster runs
• Less to defend against … faster kills, less to have to dodge … dead mobs don’t attack

Someone asked how we melee as a Ranger with Sword, the answer is “carefully”. You learn the fights so that you know what to look for and then you use Sword #2 and #3 as your evades so you stay full endurance for the +10% dmg bonus.

There is no need for range because it doesn’t cleave. Even with piercing arrows, you’re unlikely to hit everything unless you have a Mesmer/Guardian that is great at stacking up the mobs with their pull. Even then, Piercing is quite likely to sub-optimal compared to cleaving.

If you have a solution for this, please speak up. Otherwise, saying “fix it” doesn’t really help.

I strongly dislike it when people are stubborn about how they and others play.

No one is obligated to play the way someone else thinks they should play …
… likewise, no one is obligated to play with someone

So if someone doesn’t want to play meta, then they need to find people that don’t mind. Communication is key..

If someone doesn’t want to play with non-meta players, then they need to find meta players. Again, communication is key.

It doesn’t have much to do with the class, though several bad rangers have given a bad rep to the class. Not being a solid part of the meta hurts as well. However, if you’re a good player, your reputation will precede you and groups will be fine with your Ranger.

That being said, my personal experience is this:

• Most groups that I run high level fractals with let me play what I want … but prefer my Mesmer
• One group I run high level fractals with never wants my Ranger … they only want my Mesmer

I don’t see this as too big of a problem (though I prefer flexibility). It is what it is and everyone understands each other and is okay with it … which is what matters in the end.

Finally, we have tons of changes coming to all classes and to core game mechanics. There is going to likely be a shake up in the meta … we’ll see how things settle. I personally still think the 3 kings of the 3 metas will remain part of all 3, but I’m hopefuly that maybe they’ll share some of each meta with some of us peasants :-p

@Valkyrie.1794:
No, I completely understand the sentiment. I want as much control over my character as well… though I see the value in the pet as now a % of your has to be dealt with as well. A CC on you isn’t 100% of you CC’d like it is for other classes (aside from Mesmer). You downed isn’t 100% of you downed.

That said, the implementation still needs improvements. Our control over the pet is quite limited so that part of our control over our character is quite limited … which, as a fellow control freak, doesn’t make us happy :-)

I imagine the Ranger sword AA locking you out of dodging rubs your control freak side the wrong way too, eh? ;-)

@Offair:
If they’d make the pig KD more reliable and the pig F2 just give you the item (sort of like Thief’s steal), then I think we’d see several more pigs used in-game. Some of the things those suckers can forage are nice … amusingly, very similar (if not the exact same) as several things Thief can steal.

It’d be nice if they’d borrow the rest of that Thief mechanic so it wasn’t so clunky for us.

@EnderzShadow
I agree about what you call “fear mongering”. If something is truly needed, people shouldn’t care about other classes asking for it to be nerfed. There are always people that think something is OP when it kills them … because it’s never that they messed up and played poorly … that never happens :-p

Nitpicky of me, but I disagree with your Rapid Fire example. Rapid Fire has a longer cooldown, does less damage (check the coefficients), and is on a class that has less base hp, less base armor, and less power coefficients across their weapon skills.

Everything has it’s pros and cons though. I don’t want Rapid Fire buffed and more than I think Hundred Blades needs a buf. They are both in a good places since good players aren’t really bothered by them, just bad ones. Good players know how to use them and how to counter them.

Unrelated:

• +1 for Enders-related name
• +1 for Shadowbane
• +1 for DAoC

All things from way back in my past that I loved … always nice to see someone else that loved them too.

Torqiseknite.1380:

Warrior has never been a mechanically intensive profession. Its challenge has always lain in its telegraphed and difficult to land skills, requiring that competitive players learn how to bait dodges and cooldowns, read skill animations, and set up bursts.

This is an excellent summary of why I love the Warrior class and greatly respect truly exceptional Warriors.

Torqiseknite.1380:

Any major buff to Hundred Blades would just draw more people from other forums to complain about Warrior and get it nerfed again, probably leaving us worse off than before. We’re already getting significant buffs to damage in the upcoming trait system rework. There are other parts of the profession that are more deserving of changes, such as the nigh-mandatory traits Cleansing Ire and Fast Hands.

We just had a several day discussion/argument/debate in another thread in the Warrior subforums on this (Fast Hands and Cleansing Ire).

Long story short … those people that come to other subforums just to complain can suck an egg :-p There are always those that will complain. Those who actually look for facts are smart enough to ignore those that just want to complain … so I wouldn’t worry too much about those complainers.

No feelings were hurt … I would just prefer that if someone is going to post something … they actually know the current state of the discussion … not reply to posts several pages back that have already been discussed and done with …

Otherwise you’re just being a nuisance at best.

I think you are correct that for the most part, it’s done… unless someone has some fine details they still want to discuss … or wants to get onto a new, but related topic … like how to handle the current pigeon-hole that is the Warrior shout build.

I’m not following your logic, denis. It seems largely incomplete to me.

That being said, I would have liked if we had more of our damage shifted to us and away from the optimal scenario where we have 3 phantasms up … but hey, numbers are still being tweaked … we’ll see what happens.

Overall I want to not have to continue to “work harder for the same result”. Tired of that.

Oslaf Beinir.5842:

Male norn mesmer is the way to go :C

http://i.imgur.com/UnBRKi0.jpg

Amen, brother … love the do … and the stache.

@Julie.Yann & @FatRaKoon
I think you both have solid points on why it is effective

I think Julie.Yann has explained the core mechanics that make it strong and FatRaKoon has touched on how Cele has taken that power to the next level. Seems to me that you two essentially agree … unless I’m missing some.

@SilTheLimitless
Go sit at the kids-who-don’t-read table with the other two … or read and notice I agreed to baselining quite a few posts back now. Baselining two traits even.

You’re so far back on the posts that you’re replying to it’s not even funny at this point …

If you think I was cherry-picking, then please find something I didn’t touch on … though, sorry, that does require you to read.

I put forth a good deal of effort to try to not miss any points … hence my bloody walls of text that Juba is complaining about.

@FatRaKoon:
Good points.

Do you agree with the baselining of FH and Embrace the Pain for the sake of ease of balancing?

@Juba:
“Walls” because several points are brought up and I’d like to address them instead of ignoring them which would make me feel like I was (1) providing a weak post and (2) disrespecting the time that person spent making that point.

I’m going to have to disagree that with these traits baselined that Sigils, Traits, and Cooldowns don’t have to even been looked at. It is power creep since you are getting something for nothing. Sure, most, if not everyone, takes these currently, but they are taking it at the expense of not taking something else. With it baseline, they no longer are taking it at the expense of anything … so some power is gained.

That being said, looking at them doesn’t mean any of them will need to be changed. Basically I’m advocating a “look before you jump”. I don’t think that’s a bad thing. Seems pretty rationale :-p

Does this make my point clearer?
Do we agree or is there something we’re still disagreeing on?

P.S. tl;dr is for people who read slow and use it as a crutch. It’s a stupid thing that the generation that grew up with the information age already running smooth have adopted … oh no we have so much information at our fingertips … let’s not read any of it … so dumb … just as dumb as having a conversation without hearing/reading what the other person is saying.

And this is how I know you don’t actually read the thread … just see one thing and then type … friggin stupid.

Let me quote some things so that maybe you’ll actually see them … I’ll even add bold Emphasis around some things that should interest you …

make it real easy since that is apparently what has to be done for you to see it because “reading is hard”.

Sebrent.3625:

7. From this whole discussion I’m starting to feel like Fast Hands is one of those traits like Illusionary Elasticity, Residual Venom, etc. that makes it hard to balance around. How do you balance an extra bounce that can make an ability do twice as much damage? How do you balance venoms that can do +25% more to +100% more when you have a single trait?

As such, I’m starting to lean towards it needing to just be baseline for that one reason … ease of balance.

That being said, if Fast Hands was made baseline, in my mind they’d need to look at the strength of on-swap sigils, Warrior on-swap traits, and Warrior weapon cooldowns. That isn’t saying that any of them need to be changed, but I think an analysis would be warranted. Agree?

I’m still unconvinced that it’s needed for any of the other reasons, but this one reason is becoming more and more convincing …

… if it hasn’t become apparent to you yet, I mull these things over in my head quite a bit and play both saids when I do. I think this is twice I’ve now given points for it being baselined :-p … both being things not mentioned before ;-)

Why do I have to argue both sides of this … gosh :-D

Sebrent.3625:

For the same reason I can now see FH being baseline, I could see Embrace the Pain being baseline … ease of balancing.

Heck, you’re likely at least doubling your adrenaline gain when you gain adrenaline when hit. How can you balance that?

Again though, it all needs an analysis because if you are going to get both baseline, some things need an extra look to ensure balance … otherwise you’ll become a friggin elementalist on the power curve and sPvP and PvE meta groups will become 2 Ele and 2 Warriors … leaving 1 slot for 7 classes to fight over :-p

… man … didn’t think I’d wind up agreeing to baselining both FH and Embrace Pain … but now that I’ve brought up talk about trying to balance without them baseline … it’s a tough thing to argue against (in my mind).

Given some very key things I said in the last posts that I figure would highly interest you … and the non-specificity of what you just said, I feel like you’re just posting that because you’re tired of discussing and didn’t actually read.

Even if you did read, how exactly could there be any discussion, improvement, rectification, clarification, … anything at all … from what you just said.

What was misrepresented?
What errors?

Heck, I guess after the claims that “Warrior can’t full zerk” and “Warrior coefficients are bad” … I should have just saved us all some time and said what you have just now …

Aye, that was the “lack in comparison” I was speaking of.

The reason I’m not sure I’d like preparations is because they were designed for you to only take one. If we got preparations as our new skill type or as a replacement for spirits, we’d have 4 utilities, 1 heal, and 1 elite that needed to be replaced … yet we’d only ever want to take 1 of those. That isn’t helpful for build diversity.

Aye, Aomine. I’m familiar with the history … it’s part of what irks me about having the same three classes always in all metas while my Ranger and Mesmer get nerfed out of the metas.